:00:37. > :00:47.No surprise that Mr Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit.
:00:48. > :00:50.But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit?
:00:51. > :00:54.Doctors want to ban smoking outright.
:00:55. > :00:56.A sensible health measure or the health lobby's secret plan all
:00:57. > :01:27.And goodbye to the man who loves the EU. So Graham Watson is givhng his
:01:28. > :01:30.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political
:01:31. > :01:41.panel in the business Nick Watt Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:01:42. > :01:44.They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in
:01:45. > :01:46.Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence
:01:47. > :01:49.He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made
:01:50. > :01:51.it big in the world of European politic.
:01:52. > :01:54.I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg
:01:55. > :01:58.He'll soon be President of the European Commission,
:01:59. > :02:04.He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course.
:02:05. > :02:08.But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up
:02:09. > :02:23.on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker.
:02:24. > :02:26.-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist
:02:27. > :02:28.So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes
:02:29. > :02:31.of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK?
:02:32. > :02:36.Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington
:02:37. > :02:43.Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr
:02:44. > :02:46.Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got
:02:47. > :02:51.harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The
:02:52. > :02:56.majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts
:02:57. > :03:01.power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right
:03:02. > :03:08.cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European
:03:09. > :03:18.Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European
:03:19. > :03:21.countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of
:03:22. > :03:23.Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on
:03:24. > :03:26.how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the
:03:27. > :03:32.mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming
:03:33. > :03:36.European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The
:03:37. > :03:43.Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to
:03:44. > :03:49.integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you.
:03:50. > :03:53.What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at
:03:54. > :04:01.different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new
:04:02. > :04:11.Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the
:04:12. > :04:16.approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime
:04:17. > :04:19.Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general
:04:20. > :04:25.acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to
:04:26. > :04:28.the single currency will want to press forward with closer
:04:29. > :04:33.integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country
:04:34. > :04:37.in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern
:04:38. > :04:41.that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with
:04:42. > :04:47.28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the
:04:48. > :04:52.extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and
:04:53. > :04:56.integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable
:04:57. > :05:00.geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is
:05:01. > :05:04.that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the
:05:05. > :05:09.slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which
:05:10. > :05:22.backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that
:05:23. > :05:26.there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to
:05:27. > :05:29.seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the
:05:30. > :05:33.election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the
:05:34. > :05:37.British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the
:05:38. > :05:39.British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will
:05:40. > :05:43.take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron
:05:44. > :05:47.secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance,
:05:48. > :05:52.not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with
:05:53. > :05:58.Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't
:05:59. > :06:02.think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of
:06:03. > :06:11.reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do
:06:12. > :06:23.put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission
:06:24. > :06:28.to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers
:06:29. > :06:31.around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things
:06:32. > :06:35.cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger
:06:36. > :06:39.of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of
:06:40. > :06:42.work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of
:06:43. > :06:45.countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election
:06:46. > :06:50.results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing
:06:51. > :06:52.parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing
:06:53. > :07:01.real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch
:07:02. > :07:04.decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the
:07:05. > :07:10.condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would
:07:11. > :07:16.have to put that question to some of the heads of European government.
:07:17. > :07:19.Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role
:07:20. > :07:28.in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed
:07:29. > :07:32.up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from
:07:33. > :07:36.that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I
:07:37. > :07:39.think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and
:07:40. > :07:45.it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament
:07:46. > :07:50.to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce.
:07:51. > :07:54.They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are
:07:55. > :08:01.the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms
:08:02. > :08:08.of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The
:08:09. > :08:14.current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The
:08:15. > :08:19.Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are?
:08:20. > :08:24.We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at
:08:25. > :08:27.the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on
:08:28. > :08:37.whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you
:08:38. > :08:41.think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest but
:08:42. > :08:45.also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't
:08:46. > :08:50.challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform.
:08:51. > :08:55.Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of
:08:56. > :08:57.State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the
:08:58. > :09:01.existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He
:09:02. > :09:05.doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is
:09:06. > :09:09.the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the
:09:10. > :09:15.position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a
:09:16. > :09:21.distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government
:09:22. > :09:24.now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and
:09:25. > :09:28.the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that
:09:29. > :09:33.important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and
:09:34. > :09:36.that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a
:09:37. > :09:43.whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going
:09:44. > :09:48.to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in
:09:49. > :09:53.2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today For
:09:54. > :09:55.one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press
:09:56. > :10:00.ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done
:10:01. > :10:05.in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain
:10:06. > :10:09.outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of
:10:10. > :10:13.migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this
:10:14. > :10:17.week and we should welcome that Very briefly, finally, when will
:10:18. > :10:20.you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the
:10:21. > :10:24.government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the
:10:25. > :10:30.election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg
:10:31. > :10:35.speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable,
:10:36. > :10:39.more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is
:10:40. > :10:43.all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's
:10:44. > :10:47.not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in
:10:48. > :10:53.the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries
:10:54. > :10:57.those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories
:10:58. > :11:02.and I'm sure the Prime Minister as we get towards the general election,
:11:03. > :11:04.will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and
:11:05. > :11:12.perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank
:11:13. > :11:16.you for joining us this morning The harsh reality of this is that there
:11:17. > :11:20.is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring
:11:21. > :11:24.back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I
:11:25. > :11:29.think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts,
:11:30. > :11:32.those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay
:11:33. > :11:36.regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on
:11:37. > :11:40.renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would
:11:41. > :11:44.vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20
:11:45. > :11:49.years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only
:11:50. > :11:52.stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be
:11:53. > :11:59.re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the
:12:00. > :12:02.referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single
:12:03. > :12:07.biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not
:12:08. > :12:12.what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure
:12:13. > :12:16.to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against
:12:17. > :12:20.Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr
:12:21. > :12:24.Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only
:12:25. > :12:30.because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these
:12:31. > :12:33.changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that
:12:34. > :12:38.would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the
:12:39. > :12:44.biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of
:12:45. > :12:51.coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of
:12:52. > :12:53.benefits, and he might get that He wants to restrict freedom of
:12:54. > :12:57.movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is
:12:58. > :13:01.a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is
:13:02. > :13:04.also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was
:13:05. > :13:09.encouraged because it said, let s look at closer union, but it did not
:13:10. > :13:14.say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted
:13:15. > :13:17.in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The
:13:18. > :13:28.fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when
:13:29. > :13:30.he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling
:13:31. > :13:33.to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela
:13:34. > :13:35.Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the
:13:36. > :13:39.European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it,
:13:40. > :13:43.he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this
:13:44. > :13:46.basic stitch up by the European Parliament that meant he was
:13:47. > :13:50.presented, and when Angela Merkel put the question over his head there
:13:51. > :13:55.was a huge backlash in Germany and she was unable to deliver. I
:13:56. > :13:58.understand that, but I'm looking forward to Mr Cameron's predicament.
:13:59. > :14:04.I don't know how he squares the circle. It seems inconceivable that
:14:05. > :14:10.he can bring back enough from Brussels to satisfy his
:14:11. > :14:13.backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of them fundamentally want out. They
:14:14. > :14:17.don't want to be persuaded by renegotiations. Where it's hard to
:14:18. > :14:20.draw conclusions from the polling is that if you ask people question that
:14:21. > :14:24.sounds like, do you like the fact that our Prime Minister has gone to
:14:25. > :14:27.Brussels and stuck it to the man, they say yes, but how many people
:14:28. > :14:33.will go to the voting booths and put their cross in the box based on
:14:34. > :14:39.Europe? We know mostly voters care about Europe as a proxy for
:14:40. > :14:42.immigration fears. In ten people in this country could not tell you who
:14:43. > :14:44.John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir is replacing. -- and who he is
:14:45. > :14:47.replacing. And I'm joined in the studio now by
:14:48. > :14:50.arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by
:14:51. > :15:11.staunch European and former Liberal war? His declared objectives would
:15:12. > :15:15.leave Britain still in the common agricultural policy, the common
:15:16. > :15:23.foreign policy, the European arrest warrant, so the negotiating aims
:15:24. > :15:26.which we just heard Nick setting out wouldn't fundamentally change
:15:27. > :15:34.anything. It would be easy for the Government to declare war on any of
:15:35. > :15:39.these things. The danger from your point of view as someone who wants
:15:40. > :15:44.to stay in is that if David Cameron only gets cosmetic changes, the
:15:45. > :15:48.chance of getting the vote to leave the European Union increases,
:15:49. > :15:56.doesn't it? Hypothetically it probably does but we have two big
:15:57. > :16:02.things to get through first in domestic politics before we even
:16:03. > :16:06.reach a negotiation. One is are we going to have the United Kingdom
:16:07. > :16:12.this time next year following the referendum in Scotland? Secondly,
:16:13. > :16:17.are the Conservatives after the general election next year going to
:16:18. > :16:22.be in a position to pursue a negotiation? In other words are they
:16:23. > :16:27.going to be a majority government or even a minority government? For the
:16:28. > :16:32.sake of this morning let's assume the answer to both is yes, the UK
:16:33. > :16:37.stays intact and against the polls they were saying this morning, David
:16:38. > :16:42.Cameron forms an overall majority after the election. There is a
:16:43. > :16:49.danger, if he doesn't bring much back, that people will vote yes
:16:50. > :16:53.correct? There is that danger and I see a lot of the British press
:16:54. > :16:58.comment this morning saying this could be a rerun of the Harold
:16:59. > :17:03.Wilson like negotiation of the 1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to
:17:04. > :17:08.say we have got new terms and you should go with it. I think what is
:17:09. > :17:13.different however, and this is really an appeal if you like, it
:17:14. > :17:18.cannot just be left to the Liberal Democrats and coalition government
:17:19. > :17:23.to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land
:17:24. > :17:27.will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on
:17:28. > :17:33.the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European
:17:34. > :17:37.Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the
:17:38. > :17:42.line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting
:17:43. > :17:53.dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will
:17:54. > :17:59.not get away with this, will he It will be an acceptable to his party.
:18:00. > :18:04.If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is
:18:05. > :18:09.working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority
:18:10. > :18:13.of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see
:18:14. > :18:19.there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined
:18:20. > :18:23.ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had
:18:24. > :18:30.about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it
:18:31. > :18:33.is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a
:18:34. > :18:39.referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister, it has serious
:18:40. > :18:45.consequences for his party, your party, that's what I'm talking
:18:46. > :18:50.about. I am very proud of being part of the party that is trusting people
:18:51. > :18:56.to offer this. If he only gets cosmetic changes he cannot carry his
:18:57. > :19:01.party. But ultimately it will not be his party, it is the electorate as a
:19:02. > :19:05.whole that has to decide whether the changes are substantive. Everything
:19:06. > :19:10.we have been hearing just now is about staying out of future
:19:11. > :19:14.integration, protecting the role of the non-euro countries. People are
:19:15. > :19:20.upset about what is going on today with the EU. They can see laws being
:19:21. > :19:24.passed by people they cannot vote for, friendships overseas are
:19:25. > :19:29.prejudiced, and they conceive that the European Union has just put in
:19:30. > :19:33.charge in the top slot somebody who wants a United States of Europe into
:19:34. > :19:39.which we will eventually be dragged into as some kind of Providence
:19:40. > :19:49.Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist, you are Federalist, why did the Lib
:19:50. > :19:54.Dems oppose him? We shared the view that whilst you take account of what
:19:55. > :19:57.the members of the European Parliament say, ultimately the
:19:58. > :20:02.choice of the presidency in the commission should be the political
:20:03. > :20:06.leaders, the governmental leaders at a national level, and that's why we
:20:07. > :20:11.went down the route we did. It was more to do with the system than the
:20:12. > :20:16.individual. Although I would say that you need to bear in mind, I
:20:17. > :20:21.mean Daniel, I respect him personally and the integrity of his
:20:22. > :20:28.views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a
:20:29. > :20:33.small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of
:20:34. > :20:43.America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is
:20:44. > :20:55.really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we
:20:56. > :21:01.closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the
:21:02. > :21:10.idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers
:21:11. > :21:19.back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly
:21:20. > :21:23.been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that
:21:24. > :21:29.has taken shape on our doorstep Are we going to be part of that or are
:21:30. > :21:33.we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship
:21:34. > :21:45.with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or
:21:46. > :21:49.another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on
:21:50. > :21:53.and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can
:21:54. > :21:58.remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the
:21:59. > :22:04.referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it
:22:05. > :22:09.sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is
:22:10. > :22:17.a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we
:22:18. > :22:26.will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to
:22:27. > :22:31.ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I
:22:32. > :22:35.thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the
:22:36. > :22:42.Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional
:22:43. > :22:46.implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to
:22:47. > :22:54.established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we
:22:55. > :22:58.mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the
:22:59. > :23:03.institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by
:23:04. > :23:10.federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate
:23:11. > :23:13.but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains
:23:14. > :23:23.national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it
:23:24. > :23:26.makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the
:23:27. > :23:37.Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU
:23:38. > :23:41.wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you
:23:42. > :23:48.liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to
:23:49. > :23:51.you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be
:23:52. > :23:57.disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only
:23:58. > :24:02.had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries,
:24:03. > :24:09.France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of
:24:10. > :24:14.menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the
:24:15. > :24:22.North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an
:24:23. > :24:32.army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms
:24:33. > :24:36.of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you
:24:37. > :24:40.can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having
:24:41. > :24:46.the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the
:24:47. > :24:52.United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you,
:24:53. > :24:57.Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is
:24:58. > :25:02.an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want
:25:03. > :25:06.to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a
:25:07. > :25:22.referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he
:25:23. > :25:27.was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and
:25:28. > :25:30.restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw
:25:31. > :25:36.everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born
:25:37. > :25:40.after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those
:25:41. > :25:47.plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British
:25:48. > :25:52.was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men
:25:53. > :25:57.smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a
:25:58. > :26:01.political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in
:26:02. > :26:12.those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile,
:26:13. > :26:17.more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that
:26:18. > :26:28.thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in
:26:29. > :26:31.enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately
:26:32. > :26:37.we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think
:26:38. > :26:43.it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has
:26:44. > :26:47.improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma.
:26:48. > :26:53.Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on
:26:54. > :26:58.those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the
:26:59. > :27:05.introduction of plain packaging There is still those who take pride
:27:06. > :27:18.in smoking and see it as a war on freedom.
:27:19. > :27:21.We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson
:27:22. > :27:24.from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban
:27:25. > :27:28.on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark
:27:29. > :27:37.They're here to go head-to-head There are plenty of things which are
:27:38. > :27:47.bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in
:27:48. > :27:51.our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as
:27:52. > :27:56.children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start
:27:57. > :28:01.smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for
:28:02. > :28:05.you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we
:28:06. > :28:11.totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make
:28:12. > :28:15.that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol
:28:16. > :28:19.eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is
:28:20. > :28:24.totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes
:28:25. > :28:27.which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping
:28:28. > :28:34.children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops
:28:35. > :28:39.shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so
:28:40. > :28:44.you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a
:28:45. > :28:49.36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you
:28:50. > :28:54.will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the
:28:55. > :28:58.younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily
:28:59. > :29:03.addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this
:29:04. > :29:08.becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you
:29:09. > :29:13.would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have
:29:14. > :29:16.no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if
:29:17. > :29:22.we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 2
:29:23. > :29:27.years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't
:29:28. > :29:31.have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their
:29:32. > :29:35.20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes
:29:36. > :29:39.the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting
:29:40. > :29:45.cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get
:29:46. > :29:55.better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is
:29:56. > :30:00.going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever.
:30:01. > :30:04.Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see
:30:05. > :30:08.adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is
:30:09. > :30:13.for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop
:30:14. > :30:17.young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they
:30:18. > :30:27.never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds
:30:28. > :30:32.who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government
:30:33. > :30:37.increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to
:30:38. > :30:42.18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing,
:30:43. > :30:45.we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal
:30:46. > :30:51.says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a
:30:52. > :30:54.motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There
:30:55. > :30:58.is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they
:30:59. > :31:02.doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not
:31:03. > :31:05.about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and
:31:06. > :31:09.they have to get their act together because they are bringing the
:31:10. > :31:14.medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about
:31:15. > :31:19.things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places,
:31:20. > :31:21.but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes
:31:22. > :31:28.altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It s
:31:29. > :31:32.not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to
:31:33. > :31:36.smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would
:31:37. > :31:43.be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So
:31:44. > :31:46.even if I am born in the year 2 00, it would still be illegal to smoke,
:31:47. > :31:53.just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the
:31:54. > :31:57.habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so
:31:58. > :32:02.that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so
:32:03. > :32:05.important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes One
:32:06. > :32:08.thing you will find is that throughout the world people is
:32:09. > :32:13.looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and
:32:14. > :32:16.different countries like Australia, they were the first with a
:32:17. > :32:19.standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all
:32:20. > :32:25.of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the
:32:26. > :32:29.tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with
:32:30. > :32:32.cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going
:32:33. > :32:36.head-to-head. "Unless we have more equal
:32:37. > :32:40.representation, our politics won't be half as good as it should be "
:32:41. > :32:42.So said David Cameron back in 2 09. So how's it going?
:32:43. > :32:45.Well, you can judge the quality of the politics for yourself,
:32:46. > :32:47.but we've been crunching the numbers to find out what
:32:48. > :32:49.parliament might look like after the next year's general election.
:32:50. > :32:56.Here's Giles. Politicians are elected to
:32:57. > :32:58.Parliament to represent their constituents, but the make-up of
:32:59. > :33:04.Parliament does not reflect society well at all the parties it. In 010
:33:05. > :33:08.more women and ethnic minority candidates entered Westminster but
:33:09. > :33:16.not significantly more inner chamber still dominated by white males.
:33:17. > :33:22.Looking at the current make-up of the Commons, Labour has 83 female
:33:23. > :33:29.MPs, the Conservative have 47 women MPs, which is just over 47% -- and
:33:30. > :33:33.the Lib Dems have 12% of the parties. All of the parties have
:33:34. > :33:36.selected parliaments in those seats where existing MPs are retiring and
:33:37. > :33:40.to fight seats at the next election, and they've all been
:33:41. > :33:44.trying to up the number of women and ethnic minorities because discounts
:33:45. > :33:49.and can be capitalised on. A picture tells a thousand words. Look at the
:33:50. > :33:55.all-male front bench before us. And he says he wants to represent the
:33:56. > :33:58.whole country. Despite the jibe the Labour Party know they have a long
:33:59. > :34:09.way to go on the issue of being representative. So we
:34:10. > :34:10.way to go on the issue of being look at this particular area of lack
:34:11. > :34:10.of women and ethnic minorities. Women first.
:34:11. > :34:42.In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they
:34:43. > :34:49.got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 1%
:34:50. > :34:50.The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy
:34:51. > :34:53.at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most
:34:54. > :34:56.marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn
:34:57. > :34:59.In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected
:35:00. > :35:04.If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones
:35:05. > :35:08.they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time.
:35:09. > :35:11.The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won
:35:12. > :35:14.at the last election, if they manage that, they would have
:35:15. > :35:19.However all the indications are it could be
:35:20. > :35:23.a bad night for the Lib Dems, if they lost 20 seats, on a uniform
:35:24. > :35:28.swing it would leave them with just four women, 11% of the party.
:35:29. > :35:32.One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all
:35:33. > :35:35.options if it's female numbers go down in 2015, says Parliament is
:35:36. > :35:50.The bottom line is, if 50% of our population is not being looked at
:35:51. > :35:57.evenly, are we really using the best of our talent? And yes, women's life
:35:58. > :36:01.experiences are different. They are not superior, they are not inferior.
:36:02. > :36:02.They are different. But surely those life experiences need to be
:36:03. > :36:07.represented here at Westminster So that's the Parliamentary
:36:08. > :36:08.projection for gender, According to the last census
:36:09. > :36:14.in 2011, 13% of people in the UK Labour currently has 16 MPs from
:36:15. > :36:20.black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds or just over 6%, if they
:36:21. > :36:23.get their extra 68 seats that figure would go up to 26, 8% of their party
:36:24. > :36:27.were from BAME backgrounds. The Tories currently have 11 BAME
:36:28. > :36:34.candidates, or 4% of the party. If they get an extra 29 seats,
:36:35. > :36:37.that would mean 14 BAME MPs, The Liberal Democrats
:36:38. > :36:46.don't have any BAME MPs. If they manage to cling
:36:47. > :36:51.on to their current number of seats they would have two,
:36:52. > :36:54.giving them a proportion of 4%. If they lost
:36:55. > :36:56.their 20 most vulnerable seats, But even if you changed the mix
:36:57. > :37:06.of gender and ethnicity in Parliament would that solve
:37:07. > :37:08.the problem? Probably not. Only 10% of us have gone to
:37:09. > :37:13.a private fee paid school. A Quarter of all Mps went to Oxford
:37:14. > :37:21.or Cambridge. Only a fifth
:37:22. > :37:28.of us went to any university. There is a huge disillusionment with
:37:29. > :37:32.the political elite due to the fact that these people don't look like
:37:33. > :37:35.us. They don't speak like us, they don't have our experiences and they
:37:36. > :37:40.cannot communicate in a way we relate to. If you look at the
:37:41. > :37:43.turnout, at the moment, if you are an unskilled worker, you are 20
:37:44. > :37:46.points less likely to turn and vote than a middle-class professional and
:37:47. > :37:49.that is getting worse with single election.
:37:50. > :37:51.And that's the key, evidence does suggest that if a
:37:52. > :37:54.Party reflects the society it exists within, it is more likely to get
:37:55. > :38:04.It's just gone 11.35pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:05. > :38:06.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:07. > :38:10.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll have more from the panel.
:38:11. > :38:28.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:29. > :38:33.and the rain has been falling, so it must be Glastonbury. We will be
:38:34. > :38:37.asking young people which b`nd of politicians they want to he`r more
:38:38. > :38:43.from next year and who they think should turn the volume down. Our
:38:44. > :38:50.guests are two politicians who could grace the Pyramid stage any day
:38:51. > :38:59.Graham Watson, outgoing Lib Dem MEP, and Aaron S Royle who leads Labour
:39:00. > :39:04.in the House of Lords. First, let's talk about the appointment of the
:39:05. > :39:14.European Commissioner. David Cameron opposes him. Did he mishandle it?
:39:15. > :39:21.Yes, absolutely. He's done everything to alienate the council
:39:22. > :39:30.and the Parliament. Mr Miliband was against him as well. So his views
:39:31. > :39:40.were ignored as well. Well, Mr Miliband is not a prime minhster. Mr
:39:41. > :39:48.Cameron later Lee mishandled it I think he will be perfectly good
:39:49. > :39:54.That is faint praise. He will be better than the current leader. He
:39:55. > :39:58.is capable of capturing the zeitgeist. I think he is capable of
:39:59. > :40:06.recognising what is needed `nd delivering it. Does this mark the
:40:07. > :40:14.point where British influence really does begin to wane? Sadly, ht has
:40:15. > :40:22.been on the wane for a long time. In this case, Mr Cameron took Britain
:40:23. > :40:28.outside. Had we stayed, we light have ended up with a differdnt
:40:29. > :40:34.candidate. Also, we have constantly failed to participate in new
:40:35. > :40:39.projects that the union has done. It started with the euro, then with
:40:40. > :40:45.banking union. We have allowed ourselves to become semidet`ched.
:40:46. > :40:52.You know him, don't you? Dods he like a drink? No, that is in rusty
:40:53. > :41:01.story that has been put arotnd. I think he drinks averagely for a man
:41:02. > :41:06.of his age. Now, it is not `lways easy being NME P. Yes, therd is a
:41:07. > :41:11.large salary, but you can w`lk a long way throughout the corridors of
:41:12. > :41:18.Brussels. Graham is saying goodbye to all of that. Even his crhtics
:41:19. > :41:22.would admit Brussels is loshng one of its most urbane and profdssional
:41:23. > :41:31.operators. He is saying fardwell and the new boys and girls are `rriving,
:41:32. > :41:39.excited about the challenges ahead. Excuse me, could you help md? I m
:41:40. > :41:43.looking for the roundabout. Finding your way in a foreign city hs never
:41:44. > :41:52.easy. Even crossing the road can be confusing. But that this wolan,
:41:53. > :41:58.everything is new. Hope I dhdn't get you into trouble crossing at a red
:41:59. > :42:05.light, I apologise. The Southwest's first green Euro MP, she is finding
:42:06. > :42:13.her way in Brussels. Are we on level three now? So we didn't need to come
:42:14. > :42:19.through there. Let's go back this way. Now we're going to be late We
:42:20. > :42:28.are heading to the group medting, so were coming with you. I keep getting
:42:29. > :42:34.lost. These are Green MEPs `nd their staff. It is nice to be in ` big
:42:35. > :42:39.group of greens. Someone who is spelt at home here for 20 ydars is
:42:40. > :42:43.Graham Watson. He has led the liberal group. Yeah, he is chairing
:42:44. > :42:50.the climate Parliament, thotgh not for much longer. Everywhere he goes,
:42:51. > :42:57.old friends and colleagues offer up sympathy. I am sorry to hear you
:42:58. > :43:05.were leaving. That's very khnd of you. You know, that is politics It
:43:06. > :43:10.is time to move on. I've enjoyed the 20 years I've had here and H feel
:43:11. > :43:15.I've done a good job to represent my constituents. I think changd is
:43:16. > :43:21.generally a healthy thing. One thing nobody will miss is the kind of
:43:22. > :43:26.modern art that is on the w`lls I'm not sure quite where it comds from,
:43:27. > :43:35.but it is not always... If xou take this piece, for example, of the most
:43:36. > :43:40.inspired design. What you sde here are sacks full of paper. With so
:43:41. > :43:47.many people leaving parliamdnt, the officers have to be cleared. And
:43:48. > :43:53.with members having to leavd their offices before the inaugural session
:43:54. > :43:57.in Strasbourg, there is rather a lot of work for the shredding m`chines
:43:58. > :44:04.and those who are responsible for clearing the mess. These ard my
:44:05. > :44:12.officers. This is my assist`nt from Estonia. Good experience, it will be
:44:13. > :44:20.gone now. I will be transferring it to the new member. This is where I
:44:21. > :44:26.have generally work from. As you can see, it is full of packing cases. I
:44:27. > :44:31.suppose this is one particular memento. This was my 50th bhrthday.
:44:32. > :44:35.I was leader of the Liberal Democrat group and I was honoured to have the
:44:36. > :44:43.president of the EU commisshon to celebrate my birthday with le. I've
:44:44. > :44:49.had a few laughs as I come `cross papers, things I'd forgotten about
:44:50. > :44:53.entirely. And inevitably a few regrets as well, as I've cole across
:44:54. > :45:00.mementos of friends or colldagues who moved on. But I think the
:45:01. > :45:07.one. It starts you thinking in one. It starts you thinking in
:45:08. > :45:12.different ways. I take the view that you move on to new things and if you
:45:13. > :45:21.have a setback, as I've had at the polls, you pick yourself up and
:45:22. > :45:27.start all over again. Beford he dusts himself down, he is hdre for
:45:28. > :45:31.one last go. Now you can absolutely spilled the beans and give ts all
:45:32. > :45:35.the dirt on what happens in Brussels. Was it your dream to see a
:45:36. > :45:42.United States of Europe with the president at the top replachng the
:45:43. > :45:51.Queen? Know, good lord. I fdel very privileged to have represented
:45:52. > :45:55.Britain in Parliament. I wotld not describe it in those terms. I do
:45:56. > :46:01.believe there is a lot to bd gained from working together in more and
:46:02. > :46:03.more areas. Europe is about dealing with the challenges of
:46:04. > :46:14.globalisation. That requires closer union. But the end policy mtst
:46:15. > :46:20.therefore be United States? Do you think Britain is on the long but
:46:21. > :46:26.steady road to the exit door? No, I very much hope it's not. I really
:46:27. > :46:36.think the people of this cotntry, when it comes to it, will not wish
:46:37. > :46:42.to leave the EU at any time. Why is Mr Miliband toughening his stance on
:46:43. > :46:46.Europe? He is being realisthc. He is saying we want reform, which we do
:46:47. > :46:55.need, because we need to look at growth in the future. Is it
:46:56. > :46:58.democratic? The EU? Yes, it has the European Parliament and the council
:46:59. > :47:07.which is elected by people of the member states. Of course it is the
:47:08. > :47:15.democracy. Unelected offici`ls make the decisions. They are the
:47:16. > :47:17.equivalent of civil servants. The commissioners make the proposals but
:47:18. > :47:22.they do not make the decisions in the end. That is up to the directly
:47:23. > :47:26.elected European Parliament and the Council of ministers. Where do you
:47:27. > :47:33.think you went wrong in your election campaign? I think we were
:47:34. > :47:37.onto a hiding because voters wanted to punish the two parties of the
:47:38. > :47:42.coalition who've had to raise taxes and cut public spending to bring
:47:43. > :47:48.Britain out of the recession. Tories lost seats and we lost seats. UKIP
:47:49. > :47:50.have identified this dissatisfaction, especially with
:47:51. > :47:57.Europe, and have positioned themselves in a place you are not. I
:47:58. > :48:02.think the attraction of UKIP, as it were, is not really about Etrope. It
:48:03. > :48:07.is anti`politics. People ard fed up with politicians, they don't like
:48:08. > :48:12.how people have overpromised and underdelivered. They want to see a
:48:13. > :48:18.different sort of politician. I understand that, but UKIP is not the
:48:19. > :48:23.answer. Is it galling that xou are going, you knew that place hnside
:48:24. > :48:26.out, you know how it works, you speak several languages, and the
:48:27. > :48:32.people coming in in considerable numbers just want the place to be
:48:33. > :48:36.destroyed? I believe in democracy, and those are the people who devote
:48:37. > :48:44.to send, they must be the pdople who represent us. So whether voters
:48:45. > :48:49.right, do you think? The voters are always right in a democracy. And
:48:50. > :48:55.Claire Moody is a fantastic young woman. It is great for Labotr to
:48:56. > :49:01.have an MEP in the south`west. It is not surprising you would sax that. I
:49:02. > :49:06.tell you, she will work has socks off for the south`west, reg`rdless
:49:07. > :49:13.of the party she works for. She is a cracking woman. Thank you. Next
:49:14. > :49:16.year, over 3 million young people will be entitled to vote in their
:49:17. > :49:21.first general election. Thex will play a crucial part in deciding who
:49:22. > :49:26.will form next government. Hf they do turn out, how will they vote
:49:27. > :49:30.We've been finding out at Britain's biggest gathering of young people,
:49:31. > :49:34.Glastonbury. It is 44 years since the first
:49:35. > :49:41.festival. Michael Evers says politics gives Glastonbury soul He
:49:42. > :49:46.himself is a Labour man and was a candidate in the 1997 gener`l
:49:47. > :49:51.election. Now, you might expect a new generation of voters to be
:49:52. > :49:57.flocking to his party. But what young people have been tellhng me
:49:58. > :49:59.suggests otherwise. Given Glastonbury's green leanings,
:50:00. > :50:07.perhaps it is not a surprisd many say they would vote that wax. Green
:50:08. > :50:17.Party. Green Party. Labour. Green Party. Conservative. He's not the
:50:18. > :50:24.only one. Polls reckon a qu`rter of youngsters may want David C`meron to
:50:25. > :50:33.continue. Edging towards thd Conservatives. They were paxing
:50:34. > :50:43.tribute to Tony Benn in Glastonbury 's political corner. We will never
:50:44. > :50:51.forget what you gave to him. It was the most intense and great privilege
:50:52. > :50:55.to be here with him. But wh`t was striking was attitudes towards
:50:56. > :51:05.1`party which once attracted many youthful boats. Not one of xou would
:51:06. > :51:11.vote Lib Dem? No. While thex are not getting the protest votes, they are
:51:12. > :51:18.not going to UKIP, either. No, not UKIP, not BNP, no one like that
:51:19. > :51:24.Politics does feature large at Glastonbury. This giant poster wall
:51:25. > :51:30.highlights some of the issuds. One person who feels at home here is the
:51:31. > :51:36.been to ask him who he thinks been to ask him who he thinks
:51:37. > :51:41.first`time voters will go for. In 1979, the first chance I had, I
:51:42. > :51:44.didn't vote. I couldn't see a difference between Jim Call`ghan and
:51:45. > :51:51.Margaret Thatcher. You can hmagine what a face palm that is for me now.
:51:52. > :51:57.When young people don't votd for the first time, I don't lose fahth. I
:51:58. > :52:03.ended up rather politicised, so they are not without hope. It is
:52:04. > :52:06.difficult. If I couldn't tell the difference back then when L`bour and
:52:07. > :52:11.Conservatives were on opposhte sides of the spectrum, how diffictlt must
:52:12. > :52:14.it be for Young people now, when the similarities between Cameron and
:52:15. > :52:25.Miliband are sometimes diffhcult to see? You voted Lib Dem at the last
:52:26. > :52:30.three. That was tactical voting I'm frustratingly the first past the
:52:31. > :52:39.post system. You work on `` complimentary about the manhfesto. I
:52:40. > :52:46.was, it was a good manifesto, but what happened to? It was put in the
:52:47. > :52:49.rubbish bin. So feel betraydd. Young people are looking at the m`instream
:52:50. > :52:55.parties and thinking, how c`n we believe what they are saying? Do you
:52:56. > :52:59.feel the mainstream has movdd away from you? You went to join the
:53:00. > :53:06.occupied protest, you went to Bristol and supported them. That
:53:07. > :53:09.protest went nowhere, didn't it Idealism is about questioning the
:53:10. > :53:13.system and looking at what the problems are. We're activists who
:53:14. > :53:20.are here, young people who done great work focusing on corporations
:53:21. > :53:24.who pay no tax in the UK. This is a high concern among all voters.
:53:25. > :53:30.You've been singing protest songs for more than 30 years. Do xou ever
:53:31. > :53:34.feel it is in vain? Now, I don't think music is the first pl`ce
:53:35. > :53:40.people turn to for the voicd of their generation. It is mord likely
:53:41. > :53:45.to be YouTube, Twitter. Mushc is no longer the vanguard medium ht was in
:53:46. > :53:51.the 1980s. My job is to encourage people. Tony Benn was our p`trons
:53:52. > :53:57.are so many years and is no longer with us, but he is here in spirit.
:53:58. > :54:03.We ever poster at the front of the stage which has the epitaph he asked
:54:04. > :54:06.for his help. We are here to encourage the audience to bdlieve
:54:07. > :54:14.they can change the world. That is how it works. Only the audidnce can
:54:15. > :54:18.change the world. Billy Bragg trying to stoke up some passion. What is
:54:19. > :54:23.most striking is that young people have given up on political hssues.
:54:24. > :54:27.Greenpeace is doing a roaring trade here. It is that so many ard
:54:28. > :54:34.disillusioned with party politics and may simply not vote in the
:54:35. > :54:39.election. Let's pick up on some of those
:54:40. > :54:43.points Billy Bragg made. Do you agree young people can be brought
:54:44. > :54:47.back into the political fold? Absolutely. I do lots of work with
:54:48. > :54:51.young people. There are so lany these days who are not interested in
:54:52. > :54:58.politics because they don't know enough about it. But becausd we are
:54:59. > :55:02.not doing proper citizenship, proper politics teaching in our schools, it
:55:03. > :55:06.is off the radar for most young people. They don't understand
:55:07. > :55:12.everything that happens in our lives is determined by politics. When you
:55:13. > :55:15.talk with young people, there is a great organisation which enthuses
:55:16. > :55:20.young people. At the beginnhng sessions they are not infusdd, but
:55:21. > :55:27.by the end, they are. I want them to vote. The truth is, this is a
:55:28. > :55:30.difficult time to be young. No jobs for life, pensions are diffhcult,
:55:31. > :55:37.zero hours contracts and all that sort of thing. But also, it is a
:55:38. > :55:43.great time to be young. The world is at their feet. The country hs
:55:44. > :55:49.stable, there are no wars for them to buy it. So perhaps there is
:55:50. > :55:56.nothing to vote about. Well, when you think about the huge ch`llenges
:55:57. > :55:59.we face, like climate changd, rapid world population growth,
:56:00. > :56:02.internationally organised crime these are massive challenges. But
:56:03. > :56:08.our newspapers dumbed down political debate and we do not hear about it.
:56:09. > :56:11.Well, their lives are quite civilised. They go to Glastonbury
:56:12. > :56:17.and have a fantastic weekend with their brands. If you pick up
:56:18. > :56:21.newspapers or watch televishon in continental Europe, you will learn
:56:22. > :56:25.about politics. Here, you ldarn about the lives of celebrithes.
:56:26. > :56:31.There is a dumbing down of political debate. That is true, but young
:56:32. > :56:35.people care passionately about these issues. They don't vote bec`use they
:56:36. > :56:42.don't relate the issues to changing the world by the ballot box. So I
:56:43. > :56:46.feel we have do somehow enthuse young people about the power of
:56:47. > :56:52.politics, the power of putthng that cross on a piece of paper. Of course
:56:53. > :56:58.I'm Labour, proud to be Labour, but I don't care how people votd. I just
:56:59. > :57:06.want them to vote. Is it different in Europe? I think it is different
:57:07. > :57:12.in many continental countrids. Do they vote at 18? In larger numbers?
:57:13. > :57:18.They do vote at 18 and in l`rger numbers. We have one of the lower
:57:19. > :57:24.youth turnouts. Is it a failure of politicians? Actually, it is their
:57:25. > :57:28.responsibility. Yes, but I think there is a failure of polithcians.
:57:29. > :57:31.They do not reach out enough. They are seen as we had people from a
:57:32. > :57:39.different class. Sort of an alien species. The truth is, you could not
:57:40. > :57:46.put a fag paper between your different policies. Oh, yes you
:57:47. > :57:54.could. Like what? Really significant differences. Quality jobs for young
:57:55. > :57:57.people. But everybody wants quality jobs for young people. Nobody is
:57:58. > :58:03.campaigning saying, we do not want that. But they are in government and
:58:04. > :58:07.they are not providing qualhty jobs for young people. You just lentioned
:58:08. > :58:16.zero hours. Other policies different? Yes. Under Gordon Brown,
:58:17. > :58:19.we saw a massive expansion of economy under casinos and alcohol
:58:20. > :58:27.consumption. That is not wh`t we want. But it is a bit of `` a
:58:28. > :58:32.percentage point in spending here, a degree of tweaking there. There are
:58:33. > :58:37.not the differences they usdd to be. Our society at the moment is riven
:58:38. > :58:40.with inequality and it is gdtting worse. We want fairer poliches that
:58:41. > :58:47.deliver for all people in this country. Well, another week has
:58:48. > :58:54.raised by. Here is the update in 60 seconds.
:58:55. > :59:01.A children's charity in Bristol claimed young people were bding
:59:02. > :59:05.failed social services enter a state of crisis. It believes the
:59:06. > :59:08.government is falling short on its promise to end child povertx by
:59:09. > :59:13.2020. A Gloucester MP resigned from his
:59:14. > :59:17.job as aid to the Foreign Mhnister. Richard Graham says he is standing
:59:18. > :59:23.down to focus on regeneration plans in his city. Gloucester is ` classic
:59:24. > :59:28.marginal seat. I'm sure it will be a castle.
:59:29. > :59:35.A ban on a drug came into force It is used by some people in Bristol.
:59:36. > :59:40.Being caught with it once whll lead to a verbal warning and repdated use
:59:41. > :59:44.could lead to step the sentdnces. And unions have described plans
:59:45. > :59:50.before councils to share all their staff and services as scary. They
:59:51. > :59:56.are exploring the idea to s`ve money.
:59:57. > :00:04.You are from the Forest of Dean what do you think about councils
:00:05. > :00:07.sharing staff? It is potenthally interesting, because of the
:00:08. > :00:11.phenomenal cuts local counchls are having to deal with. Clearlx, they
:00:12. > :00:23.want to ensure they say flyhng front line services. `` a safeguard. We
:00:24. > :00:26.certainly do have to put thd emphasis on creating jobs in the
:00:27. > :00:32.private sector. That is one area I am pleased that the governmdnt has
:00:33. > :00:36.been hugely successful in. There are over a million private sector jobs
:00:37. > :00:43.and we have lots of young pdople in apprenticeships. So there is hope.
:00:44. > :00:49.Fancy a job on a local council? I don't know what I will do ndxt. I
:00:50. > :00:54.want to take a holiday and have a good think of it. Will you be
:00:55. > :01:02.earning lots of money? It ddpends what I want to do. That's all we
:01:03. > :01:10.have time for. Thank you to our guests. Good luck with whatdver you
:01:11. > :01:12.do. You can contact us on Twitter. Have a good week.
:01:13. > :01:17.been problems elsewhere in Europe, but I take your point. Thanks to
:01:18. > :01:22.both of you today. Back to you, Andrew.
:01:23. > :01:24.Now, there have been some less-than-helpful remarks
:01:25. > :01:27.about the way the Labour party makes policy, and they've come
:01:28. > :01:31.from the man who is heading Labour's Policy Review, Jon Cruddas.
:01:32. > :01:35.In a speech to party activists he was recorded saying that,
:01:36. > :01:38."instrumentalised, cynical nuggets of policy to chime with our focus
:01:39. > :01:41.groups and our press strategies and our desire for a topline in terms of
:01:42. > :01:44.the 24 hour media cycle, dominate and crowd out any
:01:45. > :01:54.He added that Labour's election strategy was being hampered by a
:01:55. > :02:07.The shadow chancellor, Ed Balls was asked about what Mr Cruddas had
:02:08. > :02:16.I talked to him a couple of days ago, and he's not frustrated, he is
:02:17. > :02:23.excited about his policy agenda He is frustrated that one report of 250
:02:24. > :02:29.pages gets reduced down. So it's our fault? That is the way we live in
:02:30. > :02:33.the world in which we live, but we have big ideas about devolution
:02:34. > :02:37.long term infrastructure spending and new manufacturing policy, new
:02:38. > :02:44.investment in skills, big changes which, let's be honest, I'm really
:02:45. > :02:50.on George Osborne's agenda. How serious is this? It is Wimbledon, so
:02:51. > :02:54.let's call it an unforced error You go to the party speeches, and you
:02:55. > :02:57.don't know who is in the audience. There is no need for something as
:02:58. > :03:00.serious as this to happen. It's hugely serious because it speaks
:03:01. > :03:04.about something people have felt for a long time, that they have doled
:03:05. > :03:08.out little nuggets of policy but no overarching story. There was a quite
:03:09. > :03:13.saying the Ed Miliband has given as a shopping list, not a narrative.
:03:14. > :03:17.When people in the party say things that are true, it's very difficult
:03:18. > :03:21.for people to explain it away. Not sure Mr Miliband can win here. He
:03:22. > :03:25.was recently criticised for not having policies. Now he's being
:03:26. > :03:28.criticised for having too many. I think this line of attack is
:03:29. > :03:31.particularly wounding because he prides himself on being a politician
:03:32. > :03:38.of ideas. That is his unique selling point, and the weight that David
:03:39. > :03:42.Cameron's prime ministerial nature is his selling point. So it is
:03:43. > :03:48.wounding. If I was the Labour Party, before announcing any policy, I
:03:49. > :03:51.would ask can help fix us on the economy? It might be radicalised
:03:52. > :03:57.immolating on its own terms, but it's politically useless. -- radical
:03:58. > :04:00.and innovative on its own terms I don't think any member of the public
:04:01. > :04:04.does not think they are not radical enough or creative enough. If
:04:05. > :04:07.anything, it's the opposite. They are a bit nervous about what a
:04:08. > :04:10.Labour government could do and nervous about the economic
:04:11. > :04:16.reputation. Reassurance, caution, maybe a bit of timidity might be the
:04:17. > :04:21.notions that inform their policies or should inform their policies in
:04:22. > :04:24.night -- my view, not the opposite. I am worried for Jon Cruddas,
:04:25. > :04:28.because anyone who questions the Labour Party are part of the nexus
:04:29. > :04:32.of the banking industry who are terrified of a Labour victory. It's
:04:33. > :04:35.interesting that this goes to the heart of the debate in the Labour
:04:36. > :04:40.Party, at the highest levels, do they put a big offer to the British
:04:41. > :04:45.people, or a little off, John Cruddas offer, or Douglas Alexander
:04:46. > :04:50.offer? Ed Miliband says that his ideas about freezing energy prices
:04:51. > :04:53.and rent controls are a big offer, but his policy chief clearly has
:04:54. > :04:59.real concerns that they don't go far enough. How important a figure is
:05:00. > :05:03.John Cruddas in the project? He is hell of the -- head of the policy
:05:04. > :05:07.review and has a huge amount of power, and so him slagging off the
:05:08. > :05:12.policy review is a bad moment. He is trusted in that inner circle and the
:05:13. > :05:16.problem for Ed Miliband from the odd is that he has people with strong
:05:17. > :05:20.opinions, Maurice clasping is another, big thinkers, but they
:05:21. > :05:24.maybe don't have a precaution that a professional politician might have
:05:25. > :05:28.in terms of giving bland answers. So, David Cameron had to apologise
:05:29. > :05:31.after his former director of communications was convicted
:05:32. > :05:33.of phone hacking. David Cameron's other former friend,
:05:34. > :05:36.Rebekah Brooks, had a better day. At the same trial, she was cleared
:05:37. > :05:46.of all the charges against her. I take full responsibility for
:05:47. > :05:50.employing Andy Coulson. I did some on the basis of undertakings I was
:05:51. > :05:53.given by him about phone hacking and those turned out not to be the case.
:05:54. > :05:57.I always said that if they turned out to be wrong, I would make a full
:05:58. > :06:02.and frank apology, and I do that today. I am extremely sorry that I
:06:03. > :06:07.employed him. It was the wrong decision. I'm clear about that. When
:06:08. > :06:11.I was arrested it was in the middle of a maelstrom of controversy,
:06:12. > :06:17.politics and of comment. Some of that was there, but much of it was
:06:18. > :06:25.not, so I'm grateful to the jury for coming to that decision. Not been a
:06:26. > :06:29.great week for David Cameron. Andy Coulson found guilty, and another
:06:30. > :06:35.person who had worked in Downing Street is also charged on an
:06:36. > :06:38.unrelated issue. And he was 26- on the wrong end in Brussels, and there
:06:39. > :06:42.is a poll this morning which no one seems to be talking about which puts
:06:43. > :06:44.Labour nine points ahead. Before all that there was Dominic Cummings
:06:45. > :06:50.criticising the Downing Street operation is being shambolic. Is Mr
:06:51. > :06:54.Cameron's judgement becoming an issue? Yes, what often happens when
:06:55. > :06:57.one leader is under pressure for long enough, as Ed Miliband has been
:06:58. > :07:02.the six months, we get bored. We then switch the Gatling gun to the
:07:03. > :07:05.other guy. So David Cameron going into the Conference season might be
:07:06. > :07:08.the man under pressure. The whole Andy Coulson saga has raised
:07:09. > :07:12.questions about his judgement and those around him, but any political
:07:13. > :07:15.damage she was going to sustain over Andy Coulson and phone hacking was
:07:16. > :07:18.sustained years ago -- he was going. It was Brother beyond the
:07:19. > :07:24.date the News of the World was closed down three summers ago - it
:07:25. > :07:30.was probably on the date. As the hacking trial cut through to the
:07:31. > :07:33.general public? Or is it just as media and political obsessives? I am
:07:34. > :07:37.sure it has cut through in some way but it didn't necessarily happen in
:07:38. > :07:41.recent days, more likely in recent years. It was some time ago that
:07:42. > :07:45.Andy Coulson resigned in high profile circumstances. It has had a
:07:46. > :07:49.slow burning effect over a few years, and the Prime Minister fears
:07:50. > :07:54.the Big Bang. But there is one theme and words that unites this week with
:07:55. > :07:58.Juncker and Andy Coulson, and that is that the Prime Minister can be
:07:59. > :08:01.lackadaisical. He was lackadaisical in not asking big question is when
:08:02. > :08:04.there was a lot in the public domain about what had happened that the
:08:05. > :08:08.News of the World. And he was lackadaisical with Juncker. He made
:08:09. > :08:13.a calculation that Angela Merkel would support him and it turned out
:08:14. > :08:17.she couldn't. Maybe he needs to change. He was late in understanding
:08:18. > :08:23.what was happening in Germany when both the Christian Democrats, her
:08:24. > :08:26.party, wanted Juncker, and when the actual Murdoch press of Germany said
:08:27. > :08:31.that they wanted him as well. He never saw that. He only looks at one
:08:32. > :08:37.person in Germany, Angela Merkel, and it is a grand coalition, and the
:08:38. > :08:40.SDP felt strongly about it. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime
:08:41. > :08:43.Minister. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime Minister. He s
:08:44. > :08:51.very good in an essay, and the SA gets a double first the essay. Is Ed
:08:52. > :08:53.Miliband right to be angry? He has John Cruddas attacking him, and that
:08:54. > :08:59.is the news leading in the Sunday Times, and has not been a good week
:09:00. > :09:02.the Prime Minister and in which Mr Miliband has a bigger lead in the
:09:03. > :09:06.polls than he has had some time so he must be wondering why they are
:09:07. > :09:08.having a go at him. He made a tactical error in Prime Minister's
:09:09. > :09:13.Questions by asking all the questions about Andy Coulson. The
:09:14. > :09:17.one at the end about what Gus O'Donnell said was rather hopeful in
:09:18. > :09:21.the extreme. Politicians can be out of touch on all sides of the house.
:09:22. > :09:25.The problem is, and there is a great quote by William Hague, is that the
:09:26. > :09:29.Tory party has two modes, panic and complacency. At the moment they are
:09:30. > :09:31.complacent. They think Ed Miliband will lose Labour election but I
:09:32. > :09:33.don't know if they have a positive plan about how to win it. -- lose
:09:34. > :09:36.Labour the election. Now, we knew Prince Charles had
:09:37. > :09:39.trouble keeping his views about the environment
:09:40. > :09:41.and the countryside to himself, but that's not the only thing he's
:09:42. > :09:44.passionate about according to a radio four documentary to be
:09:45. > :09:46.broadcast this lunchtime. Here's former Education Secretary,
:09:47. > :09:51.David Blunkett on how the Prince had once attempted to influence
:09:52. > :09:58.his policy on schools. I would explain that our policy was
:09:59. > :10:03.not to expand grammar schools, and he didn't like that. He was very
:10:04. > :10:07.keen that we should go back to a different era where youngsters had
:10:08. > :10:11.what he would've seen as the opportunity to escape from their
:10:12. > :10:13.background, where as I wanted to change their background.
:10:14. > :10:16.And you can hear that documentary - it's called The Royal Activist
:10:17. > :10:25.Does it matter that Prince Charles is getting involved in this kind of
:10:26. > :10:27.policy, released behind closed doors question mark on the issue of
:10:28. > :10:33.grammar schools is not clear anybody listened to him. I think it is a
:10:34. > :10:37.principal problem. I've spoken to form a government members, and
:10:38. > :10:41.judging by what they say, if anything we underestimate how much
:10:42. > :10:45.contacting makes with ministers And how many representations he makes on
:10:46. > :10:50.the issue that interest him. There has been an attempt to keep it
:10:51. > :10:54.hidden. It's almost a theological question about whether the future
:10:55. > :10:57.monarch should be involved in the public realm. If he wants to
:10:58. > :11:02.influence policy, shouldn't we know what policy he's trying to influence
:11:03. > :11:07.and what position he is taking? Sewer speech is better than private
:11:08. > :11:13.one-on-one lobbying. Possibly - so a speech. Prince Charles's views are
:11:14. > :11:17.interesting. He's not a straight down the light reactionary. He makes
:11:18. > :11:19.a left-wing case for rammer schools. There is an interview with him in
:11:20. > :11:24.the Financial Times in which his argument in favour for architectural
:11:25. > :11:28.development takes into account affordable housing in the wake which
:11:29. > :11:31.no one would have suspected. He has interesting views, but I'm not
:11:32. > :11:37.convinced on the point of principle whether someone is dashing his
:11:38. > :11:43.position should be speaking. Your former employer 's famously
:11:44. > :11:49.described him as the SDP king. You slightly feel sorry for him. He s 66
:11:50. > :11:54.and still an apprentice. He's in a difficult position. We know what the
:11:55. > :11:57.powers of the monarch are. They are to advise in courage and warned the
:11:58. > :12:01.Prime Minister of the day. These in the difficult position where the
:12:02. > :12:04.problem for him is that there is a line that isn't really defined, but
:12:05. > :12:10.you slightly feel he just gets a bit too close to it and possibly crosses
:12:11. > :12:14.that line with the lobbying that goes on. I think the worrying thing
:12:15. > :12:20.is that at some point he will become King and will he know that he has
:12:21. > :12:23.got to work within that framework? He is somebody that cannot win
:12:24. > :12:27.either. If he doesn't take an interest in public policy, he will
:12:28. > :12:31.be thought to be a bit of a waster, going round opening town halls, and
:12:32. > :12:35.when he does have an interest we think, hey, you are in the monarchy,
:12:36. > :12:41.stay out. There's an interesting parallel with first ladies who are
:12:42. > :12:44.encouraged to find a controversial charitable project. Michelle Obama
:12:45. > :12:48.has bought childhood obesity, and that is the standard thing.
:12:49. > :12:52.Everybody knows that that is a bad thing, but you are not offering
:12:53. > :12:56.solutions that are party political. I feel there must be a middle way
:12:57. > :12:59.with what he should be able to do about finding big causes he can
:13:00. > :13:04.complain about without getting stuck into lobbying ministers. Which can
:13:05. > :13:06.become a party political issue. He has had some influence on
:13:07. > :13:08.architecture, because the buildings we are putting up to date are better
:13:09. > :13:10.than the ones we used to put up The Daily Politics is on BBC 2
:13:11. > :13:15.at 11:00am We'll be back here
:13:16. > :13:20.at the same time next week. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:21. > :13:24.it's the Sunday Politics.