:00:08. > :00:12.Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering
:00:13. > :00:14.for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what
:00:15. > :00:53.the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for
:00:54. > :00:58.Scotland's decision to vote 'no means more powers heading north
:00:59. > :01:06.But what about Home Rule for England?
:01:07. > :01:11.Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells
:01:12. > :01:16.us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've
:01:17. > :01:28.In the West, is a din calling once people who want to
:01:29. > :01:31.In the West, is a din calling once again? Is misleading say thd borders
:01:32. > :01:39.should powers and more freedom to spend.
:01:40. > :01:47.But what is the next devolution step for the capital? With me, the best
:01:48. > :01:51.and brightest political panel in the business, at least that is what they
:01:52. > :01:54.pay me to say every week. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and, this week, we have
:01:55. > :02:01.done some devolution ourselves to other areas, and we have Sam Coates
:02:02. > :02:05.from the times. The union survived, but only at the cost of more powers
:02:06. > :02:08.for the Scottish parliament and enshrining the formula that gives
:02:09. > :02:13.Scotland a privileged position when it comes to public spending, which
:02:14. > :02:20.has MPs on both sides of the Commons of in arms. The Scottish question
:02:21. > :02:26.has been answered for now. Suddenly, the English question takes centre
:02:27. > :02:33.stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It has a grubby feel, when that vow was
:02:34. > :02:35.put to the Scottish people, that they hoped would swing the vote
:02:36. > :02:43.there was nothing about English only votes. It was unconditional? The
:02:44. > :02:46.Tory proposal did talk very core justly about looking at the
:02:47. > :02:52.proposals by a former clerk of the House of Commons that looked at this
:02:53. > :02:58.issue. That was very cautious. - cautiously. These proposals will not
:02:59. > :03:01.get through Westminster unless David Cameron addresses the English-only
:03:02. > :03:05.issue. You look at people like Chris Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph.
:03:06. > :03:09.Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr Show said you could not have a link
:03:10. > :03:10.between what you are giving Holyrood and English-only MPs. Back on says,
:03:11. > :03:27.is welshing on the deal. -- comic he They were furious that he gave away
:03:28. > :03:35.these tax powers and inscribed the Barnett formula. They said they
:03:36. > :03:39.weren't going to vote for it. It is a shameless piece of opportunism.
:03:40. > :03:41.Now they can say that Labour are the ones that don't trust you and don't
:03:42. > :03:47.want to give you more powers. He knows it is going to be a tight
:03:48. > :03:50.timetable. The idea of getting a draft of this out by Burns Night,
:03:51. > :03:54.most people would say, given they had six years to set up Scottish
:03:55. > :04:01.parliament, the idea we will solve these huge constitutional questions
:04:02. > :04:04.in four months is absurd. But they don't care about the constitutional
:04:05. > :04:10.questions, the one they care about is English votes? There is a simple
:04:11. > :04:14.reason they won that. If you look at the MPs in England alone, the Tories
:04:15. > :04:19.have a majority of 59, an overwhelming bias, and if you strip
:04:20. > :04:23.out Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland, so this has become a
:04:24. > :04:25.partisan issue. The question is whether David Cameron can follow
:04:26. > :04:32.through on the promise. He said he would link the two Scottish powers,
:04:33. > :04:37.but it's not clear you will get either before the general election.
:04:38. > :04:41.It's not but the purpose is to cause Labour Party discomfort, and it is.
:04:42. > :04:47.You can see with date -- Ed Miliband this morning, they find it very hard
:04:48. > :04:52.to answer the question, why shouldn't there be English votes for
:04:53. > :04:57.English laws? Ed Miliband this morning was saying how London MPs
:04:58. > :05:00.get to vote on London transport and English MPs don't outside of London
:05:01. > :05:05.and it is confusing, but Labour is in a difficult position. They were
:05:06. > :05:09.before the Prime Minister made his announcement. The yes side triumphed
:05:10. > :05:12.in Glasgow, the largest city in Scotland, a Labour heartland, and
:05:13. > :05:16.the Prime Minister is saying that if Labour don't agree to this by the
:05:17. > :05:20.time of the general election, he is handing a gift to the SNP, that that
:05:21. > :05:25.would be the party that the natural Labour voters would vote for to see
:05:26. > :05:28.off the plan. It's not just Tory backbenchers. There are Labour
:05:29. > :05:31.backbenchers saying there should be in which bodes for English laws
:05:32. > :05:38.Even people in the Shadow Cabinet think it is right. The cases
:05:39. > :05:41.unarguable. If you say her chewing a partisan way, you can't sell it to
:05:42. > :05:45.the country. Ed Miliband is on course to have a majority of about
:05:46. > :05:51.20, and you take the 40 English MPs, and he hasn't got it. This is a
:05:52. > :05:56.coalition government where the Conservatives haven't got really to
:05:57. > :05:59.be in charge, they have put in sweeping laws. Labour should
:06:00. > :06:05.probably take the bullet on this one. Let's leave it for the moment.
:06:06. > :06:10.But don't go away. As they struggle to keep the United Kingdom in one
:06:11. > :06:13.piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg promised to keep
:06:14. > :06:15.something called the Barnett Formula.
:06:16. > :06:18.It wasn't invented in Barnet, but by man called Joel Barnett.
:06:19. > :06:20.And it's how the UK government decides how much
:06:21. > :06:23.public money to spend in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
:06:24. > :06:25.It's controversial, because it's led to public spending
:06:26. > :06:27.being typically 20% higher in Scotland than in England.
:06:28. > :06:29.Well, some English MPs aren't happy about that.
:06:30. > :06:35.I'm joined now by the Tory MP Dominic Raab.
:06:36. > :06:43.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How can the Prime Minister scrap the
:06:44. > :06:49.Barnett Formula when he has just about to keep it on the front page
:06:50. > :06:54.of a major Scottish newspaper? If we are going to see financial
:06:55. > :06:57.devolution to Scotland, more powers of tax and spend, it's impossible
:06:58. > :07:01.not to look at the impact on the wider union, and there have been
:07:02. > :07:04.promises made to the Scottish and we should do our best to deliver them,
:07:05. > :07:08.but there have been promises made to the English, Welsh and Northern
:07:09. > :07:11.Irish. If you look at the Barnett Formula which allocates revenue
:07:12. > :07:16.across the UK, it is massively prejudicial to those other parts. We
:07:17. > :07:20.have double the number of ambulance staff and nurses compared to
:07:21. > :07:23.England. The regional breakdown is more stark with double the amount
:07:24. > :07:27.spent on social housing in Scotland than in Yorkshire and the North West
:07:28. > :07:31.and the Midlands. The Welsh do very poorly on social services for the
:07:32. > :07:36.elderly. What are we saying? That they need our children, patients and
:07:37. > :07:42.the elderly are worth less than the Scots? That's not the way to have a
:07:43. > :07:46.sustainable solution. I understand the distribution impact of the
:07:47. > :07:50.Barnett Formula, but Westminster politicians are already held in
:07:51. > :07:56.contempt by a lot of people and to rat on such a public pledge would
:07:57. > :08:00.confirm their worst fears. Your leader would have secured the union
:08:01. > :08:05.on a false prospectus. First of all, it's clear from the Ashcroft
:08:06. > :08:08.poll that the offer made in the Scottish newspaper had zero effect
:08:09. > :08:11.and if anything was counter-productive to the overall
:08:12. > :08:16.result because two thirds of swing voters in the last few days voted
:08:17. > :08:20.for independence. But we can't keep proceeding without looking at the
:08:21. > :08:24.promises made to the English. We said in the referendum that we would
:08:25. > :08:28.have English laws -- English votes on English issues. The Liberal
:08:29. > :08:31.Democrats, in their manifesto, pledged to scrap the Barnett
:08:32. > :08:36.Formula. We have to reconcile all of the promises to all parts of the UK,
:08:37. > :08:41.and Alex Salmond talks about a Westminster stitch up, but what he's
:08:42. > :08:45.trying to do is, with gross double standards, is in French stitch up in
:08:46. > :08:53.rapid time, which would be grossly unfair to the rest of the rest of UK
:08:54. > :08:56.-- is contrive stitch up. What is unfair about the current spending
:08:57. > :09:04.formula? The extra money Scotland gets from Barnet, is covered by the
:09:05. > :09:07.oil revenues it sends to London Scotland is only getting back on
:09:08. > :09:10.spending what it pays in tax. There is no analysis out there that
:09:11. > :09:18.suggests it is the same amount. Having voted to stay in the UK. Let
:09:19. > :09:24.me give you the figures. Last year revenues were 4.5 billion, and the
:09:25. > :09:30.Barnett Formula was worth 4.5 billion to Scotland. It is awash. A
:09:31. > :09:34.huge amount of British taxpayer investment has gone into extracting
:09:35. > :09:37.North Sea oil, and if we move to a more federal system, we would need
:09:38. > :09:40.to look at things like the allocation of resources, but the
:09:41. > :09:46.Barnett Formula has been lambasted as a national embarrassment and
:09:47. > :09:50.grossly unfair by its Labour Party architect, Lord Barnett. So what we
:09:51. > :09:55.need is to change this mechanism so it is based on need. The irony is,
:09:56. > :09:58.when the Scots allocate Avenue to the -- revenue to their local
:09:59. > :10:01.authorities, it's done on a needs basis, and what is good for Scotland
:10:02. > :10:07.must be good for the rest of Britain. One final question. The
:10:08. > :10:11.Prime Minister is now making his promise of more home rule for
:10:12. > :10:14.Scotland conditional on English votes for English laws. Why didn't
:10:15. > :10:18.he spell out the condition when he made his bow to the Scottish people?
:10:19. > :10:22.Why has this condition been tacked on by the Prime Minister? In the
:10:23. > :10:28.heat of the referendum debate lots of things were said, but the truth
:10:29. > :10:34.is that Parliament must also look at this and make its views known, and
:10:35. > :10:37.English MPs as well. You will find that conservative as well as a lot
:10:38. > :10:42.of Labour MPs would say, we cannot just rush through a deal that is
:10:43. > :10:46.unsustainable. It has to be good for all parts of Britain. Yes, we should
:10:47. > :10:49.deliver on our promises for more devolution to Scotland, but let s
:10:50. > :10:54.deliver on promises to be English, and Northern Irish. Why are they
:10:55. > :10:55.locked out of the debate? Let's leave it there. Thank you for
:10:56. > :10:57.joining us. The man responsible
:10:58. > :10:59.for taking Scottish nationalism from the political fringes to within
:11:00. > :11:02.touching distance of victory, Alex Salmond, has a flair for dramatic
:11:03. > :11:05.announcements, and he gave us another on Friday
:11:06. > :11:07.when he revealed he's to stand Friends and foes have paid tribute
:11:08. > :11:11.to his extraordinary career. In a moment I'll be speaking to
:11:12. > :11:14.Alex Salmond, but first here's Adam Fleming with
:11:15. > :11:37.the story of the vote that broke The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole
:11:38. > :11:40.place converted into a studio for Scotland's big night. You know what
:11:41. > :11:44.you need for big events, big screens, and there are loads of them
:11:45. > :11:48.here. That one is three stories high, and this is the one Jeremy
:11:49. > :11:51.Vine uses for his graphics. The other thing that is massive is the
:11:52. > :11:57.turnout in the referendum, it is enormous. It was around 85% of the
:11:58. > :12:08.electorate, that is 4 million ballot papers. First to declare
:12:09. > :12:15.Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 1 ,000 and 36. The first Noel of the night,
:12:16. > :12:19.and there were plenty more. -- the first no vote. The better together
:12:20. > :12:25.campaigners were over the moon, like Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in
:12:26. > :12:28.100 different towns. I don't want to sound schmaltzy, but it makes you
:12:29. > :12:38.think more of Scotland. It makes you small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around
:12:39. > :12:43.five a.m., the Yes campaign applauded as they won Scotland's
:12:44. > :12:47.biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went their way as well, but just for
:12:48. > :12:52.areas out of 32 opted for independence. How many copies have
:12:53. > :12:55.you had? This is my second cup of tea on the morning -- how many
:12:56. > :12:59.copies. He was enjoying the refreshments on offer, but the yes
:13:00. > :13:05.campaigners were not in a happy place. We are in the bowels of one
:13:06. > :13:10.of the parts of the British establishment that, I've got to say,
:13:11. > :13:15.has probably done its job in this referendum, because I think the BBC
:13:16. > :13:20.has been critical in shoring up the establishment and have supported the
:13:21. > :13:24.no campaign as best as they could. But there was no arguing with the
:13:25. > :13:31.numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC called it. Scotland has voted no in
:13:32. > :13:35.this referendum on independence The result, in Fife, has taken the no
:13:36. > :13:41.campaign over the line and the official result of this referendum
:13:42. > :13:46.is a no. There we go, on a screen three stories high, Scotland has
:13:47. > :13:50.said no to independence. As soon as the newsprint was driving north of
:13:51. > :13:53.the border, the focus shifted south as the Prime Minister pledged more
:13:54. > :13:58.devolution for Scotland but only if it happened everywhere else as well.
:13:59. > :14:01.Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish
:14:02. > :14:06.Parliament on their issues of tax, spending on welfare, so to England,
:14:07. > :14:09.as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on
:14:10. > :14:16.these issues, and all this must take place in tandem with and at the same
:14:17. > :14:21.pace as the settlement for Scotland. It began to dawn on us all that we
:14:22. > :14:28.might end up doing this again. See you for an English referendum soon?
:14:29. > :14:35.Northern Ireland. There could be another one in Scotland. But not
:14:36. > :14:39.next weekend? Give me a break. There was no break for Nick, because Alex
:14:40. > :14:45.Salmond came up with one last twist, his resignation was as leader, my
:14:46. > :14:53.time is nearly over. But the Scotland, the campaign continues,
:14:54. > :14:56.and the dream shall never die. So, the referendum settled, the
:14:57. > :15:02.Constitution in flux, and a leader gone. All in a night work.
:15:03. > :15:08.Alex Salmond is to stand down as First Minister of Scotland. He shows
:15:09. > :15:12.no signs of going quietly. Last night, I spoke to the SNP leader in
:15:13. > :15:18.Aberdeen and began by asking him if it was always his intention to
:15:19. > :15:22.resign if he lost the referendum. I certainly have thought about it
:15:23. > :15:27.Andrew. But for most of the referendum campaign I thought we
:15:28. > :15:31.were going to win. So, I was... Yeah, maybe a few months back I
:15:32. > :15:37.considered it. But I only finally made up my mind on Friday lunch
:15:38. > :15:46.time. Did you agonise over the decision to stand down? I'm not
:15:47. > :15:52.really an agonising person. When you get beaten in a referendum, you have
:15:53. > :15:58.to consider standing down as a real possibility. Taking responsibility
:15:59. > :16:02.and politics has gone out of fashion but there is an aspect, if you need
:16:03. > :16:06.a campaign, and I was the leader of the Yes Campaign, and you don't win,
:16:07. > :16:10.you have to contemplate if you are the best person to lead future
:16:11. > :16:15.political campaigns. In my judgement, it was time for the SNP
:16:16. > :16:19.and the broader yes movement, the National movement of Scotland, they
:16:20. > :16:23.would benefit from new leadership. In your heart of hearts, through the
:16:24. > :16:29.campaign, as referendum on day approached, you did think you were
:16:30. > :16:36.going to win? Yes, I did. I thought for most of the last month of the
:16:37. > :16:41.campaign, we were in with a real chance. In the last week I thought
:16:42. > :16:46.we had pulled ahead. I thought the decisive aspect wasn't so much the
:16:47. > :16:49.fear mongering, the scaremongering, the kitchen sink being thrown at
:16:50. > :16:53.Scotland by orchestration from Downing Street, I thought the real
:16:54. > :16:58.thing was the pledge, the vow, the offer of something else. A lot of
:16:59. > :17:02.people that had been moving across to independence saw within that a
:17:03. > :17:07.reason to say, well, we can get something anyway without the
:17:08. > :17:12.perceived risks that were being festooned upon them. You were only
:17:13. > :17:19.five points away from your dream. You won Scotland's largest city
:17:20. > :17:25.There is now the prospect of more power. Why not stay and be an
:17:26. > :17:30.enhanced First Minister? Well, it is a good phrase. I'm not going away,
:17:31. > :17:35.though. I'm still going to be part of the political process. In
:17:36. > :17:39.Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire wish to keep electing me, that is
:17:40. > :17:43.what I will do. But I don't have to be First Minister of Scotland,
:17:44. > :17:49.leader of the Yes Campaign, to see that achieved. The SNP is a strong
:17:50. > :17:54.and powerful leadership team. There are a number of people that would do
:17:55. > :17:59.a fantastic job as leader of the party and First Minister. I've been
:18:00. > :18:04.leader of the party for the last 24 years, I think it is time to give
:18:05. > :18:07.somebody else a shot. There are many able-bodied people that will do that
:18:08. > :18:14.well. -- many able people that will do that well. I'm still part of the
:18:15. > :18:19.national movement, arguing to take this forward. I think you are right,
:18:20. > :18:22.the question, one of the irony is developing so quickly after the
:18:23. > :18:25.referendum, it might be those that lost on Thursday end up as the
:18:26. > :18:32.political winners and those that won end up as the losers. When we met
:18:33. > :18:35.just for the vote, a couple of days before the vote, you said to me that
:18:36. > :18:42.there was very little you would change about the campaign strategy.
:18:43. > :18:46.Is that still your view? Yes. There are one or two things, like any
:18:47. > :18:53.campaign, there is no such thing as a pitcher campaign. I would refer
:18:54. > :18:57.not to dwell on such things. I will leave of my book, which will be
:18:58. > :19:01.called 100 Days, coming out before Christmas. Once you read that, I
:19:02. > :19:05.will probably reveal the things I would have changed. Basically,
:19:06. > :19:09.broadly, this was an extraordinary campaign. Not just a political
:19:10. > :19:13.campaign, but a campaign involving the grassroots of Scotland in an
:19:14. > :19:18.energising, empowering way, the like of which in on of us have witnessed.
:19:19. > :19:23.It was an extraordinary phenomenon of grassroots campaigning, which
:19:24. > :19:30.carried the Yes Campaign so far almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch
:19:31. > :19:39.put his Scottish Sun behind you would have that made the difference?
:19:40. > :19:46.If ifs and ands were pots and pans... Why did he not? I would not
:19:47. > :19:51.say that, you have form with him that I do not have. I'm not sure
:19:52. > :19:58.about that. I was very encouraged. The coverage, not in the other
:19:59. > :20:00.papers, The Times, which was extremely hostile to Scottish
:20:01. > :20:05.independence, but the coverage in the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced
:20:06. > :20:15.and we certainly got a very fair kick of the ball. In newspapers I
:20:16. > :20:18.would settle for no editorial line and just balanced coverage. We
:20:19. > :20:23.certainly got that from the Scottish Sun and that was an encouragement. I
:20:24. > :20:28.think you saw from his tweets, certainly in his heart he would have
:20:29. > :20:39.liked to have seen a move forward in Scotland and I like that. He said if
:20:40. > :20:43.you lost, that was it, referendum wise, for a generation, which he
:20:44. > :20:48.defined as about 20 years. Is that still your view? Yes, it is. It has
:20:49. > :20:53.always been my view. It's a personal view. There are always things that
:20:54. > :20:57.can change in politics. If the UK moved out of the European Union for
:20:58. > :21:01.example, that would be the sort of circumstance. Some people would
:21:02. > :21:07.argue with Westminster parties, and I'm actually not surprised that they
:21:08. > :21:11.are reneging on commitments, I am just surprised by the speed they are
:21:12. > :21:16.doing it. They seem to be totally shameless in these matters. You
:21:17. > :21:20.don't think they will meet the vow? You don't think there will keep to
:21:21. > :21:23.their vow? They are not, for that essential reason you saw developing
:21:24. > :21:28.on Friday. The Prime Minister wants to link change in Scotland to change
:21:29. > :21:32.in England. He wants to do that because he has difficulty in
:21:33. > :21:36.carrying his backbenchers on this and they are under pressure from
:21:37. > :21:39.UKIP. The Labour leadership are frightened of any changes in England
:21:40. > :21:44.which leave them without a majority in the House of Commons on English
:21:45. > :21:49.matters. I would not call it an irresistible force and immovable
:21:50. > :21:54.object, one is resistible and one is movable. They are at loggerheads.
:21:55. > :21:57.The vow, I think, was something cooked up in desperation for the
:21:58. > :22:03.last few days of the campaign. I think everybody in Scotland now
:22:04. > :22:08.engines that. -- recognises that. It was the people that were persuaded
:22:09. > :22:14.to vote no that word tricked, effectively. They are the ones that
:22:15. > :22:18.are really angry. Ed Miliband and David Cameron, if they are watching
:22:19. > :22:24.this, I would be more worried about the anger of the no voters than the
:22:25. > :22:30.opinion of the Yes Vote on that matter. If independence is on the
:22:31. > :22:38.back burner for now, what would you advise your successor's strategy for
:22:39. > :22:45.the SNP to be? I would advise him or her not to listen to advice from
:22:46. > :22:51.their predecessor. A new leader brings forward a new strategy. I
:22:52. > :22:55.think this is, for the SNP, a very favourable political time. There
:22:56. > :23:00.have been 5000 new members joined since Thursday. That is about a 25%
:23:01. > :23:05.increase in the party membership in the space of a few days. More than
:23:06. > :23:16.that, I think this is an opportunity for the SNP. But my goal is the
:23:17. > :23:20.opportunity for Scotland. I would repeat I am not retiring from
:23:21. > :23:26.politics. I'm standing down as First Minister of Scotland. On Friday
:23:27. > :23:32.coming back to the north-east of Scotland, I passed through Dundee,
:23:33. > :23:36.which voted yes by a stud -- substantial margin. There was a line
:23:37. > :23:41.of a song I couldn't get out of my head, and old Jacobite song,
:23:42. > :23:49.rewritten by Robert Burns, the last line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in
:23:50. > :23:56.the midst of your glee, you've not seen the last of my bonnets and me.
:23:57. > :24:00.So you are staying a member of the Scottish Parliament, shall we see
:24:01. > :24:07.you again in the House of Commons? What does the future hold for you?
:24:08. > :24:11.Membership of Scottish Parliament is dependent on the good folk of
:24:12. > :24:15.Aberdeenshire east. If they choose to elect me, I will be delighted to
:24:16. > :24:20.serve. I've always loved being a constituency member of Parliament, I
:24:21. > :24:23.have known some front line politicians that regarded that as a
:24:24. > :24:30.chore. I'm not saying they didn t do it properly, I am sure they did But
:24:31. > :24:33.I love it. You get distilled wisdom from being a constituency member of
:24:34. > :24:36.Parliament that helps you keep your feet on the ground and have a good
:24:37. > :24:40.observation as to what matters to people. I have no difficulty with
:24:41. > :24:51.being a constituent member of Parliament. Can you promise me it
:24:52. > :25:01.will never be Lord Salmond? Yes Thanks for joining us. Great
:25:02. > :25:05.pleasure, thank you. Now, the independence referendum is over the
:25:06. > :25:09.next big electoral test is a general election. It is just over seven
:25:10. > :25:15.months away. In a moment I will be talking to Chuka Umunna, but what
:25:16. > :25:20.are the political views of the men and women fighting to win seats for
:25:21. > :25:22.the Labour Party? The Sunday Politics has commissioned an
:25:23. > :25:28.exclusive survey of the Parliamentary candidates.
:25:29. > :25:31.Six out of seven Labour candidates say that the level of public
:25:32. > :25:35.spending during their last period of office was about right. 40% of them
:25:36. > :25:40.want a Labour government to raise taxes to reduce the budget deficit.
:25:41. > :25:44.18% favour cutting spending. On immigration, just 15% think that the
:25:45. > :25:50.number coming to Britain is too high. Only 7% say we generous to
:25:51. > :25:53.immigrants. Three in ten candidates believe the party relationship with
:25:54. > :25:57.trade unions is not close enough. Not that we spoke to think it is too
:25:58. > :26:03.close. Or than half of the candidates say want to scrap the
:26:04. > :26:08.nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in five want to nationalise the
:26:09. > :26:16.railways. If they are after a change of leader, Yvette Cooper was their
:26:17. > :26:21.preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came in fourth. And he joins me now for
:26:22. > :26:28.the Sunday interview. Why is Labour choosing so many
:26:29. > :26:31.left-wing candidates? I don't think I accept the characterisation of
:26:32. > :26:35.candidates being left wing. I don't think your viewers see politics in
:26:36. > :26:39.terms of what is left and right I think they see it in terms of what
:26:40. > :26:43.is right and wrong. Obviously, many of the things we have been talking
:26:44. > :26:47.about, how we ensure that the next generation can do better than the
:26:48. > :26:51.last, how we raise the wages of your viewers, who are currently working
:26:52. > :26:54.very hard but not making a wage they can live off, that is what they are
:26:55. > :26:58.talking about and that is what the public will judge them on. But they
:26:59. > :27:01.want to raise taxes, they don't want to cut public spending, they want to
:27:02. > :27:05.re-nationalise the railways, they don't think there is too much
:27:06. > :27:08.immigration, they want to scrap Trident. These are all positions
:27:09. > :27:13.clearly to the left of current party policy. But that is your
:27:14. > :27:18.characterisation. If you look at our policy to increase the top rate of
:27:19. > :27:21.tax to 50% for people earning over ?150,000, that is a central
:27:22. > :27:27.position. It is something that enjoys the support of the majority
:27:28. > :27:32.of the public. Trident? If you talk to the British public about
:27:33. > :27:36.immigration, yes, there are concerns about the numbers coming in and out,
:27:37. > :27:39.yes people want to see integration, yes, people want to see people
:27:40. > :27:43.putting a contribution before they take out, the people recognise, if
:27:44. > :27:46.you look at our multicultural nation, we have derived a lot of
:27:47. > :27:50.benefits from immigration. I don't think your characterisation of those
:27:51. > :27:57.positions, that is your view... It's not, it is their view. They are
:27:58. > :28:02.saying... You describe it... You described those positions as left
:28:03. > :28:07.wing positions. I am saying to you that I actually think a lot of those
:28:08. > :28:11.positions are centrist positions that would enjoy the support of the
:28:12. > :28:15.majority of your viewers. I don t think your viewers think the idea of
:28:16. > :28:19.the broadest shoulders bearing the heaviest burden in forms of tax are
:28:20. > :28:25.going to see it as a way out, radical principle. They want to
:28:26. > :28:29.scrap Trident, not party policy It isn't.
:28:30. > :28:36.I think that 73... Well, we will have 400 Parliamentary candidates at
:28:37. > :28:41.the time of the next general election, not including current MPs.
:28:42. > :28:48.This is 73 out of over 400 of them. I think we also need to treat the
:28:49. > :28:52.survey with a bit of caution. They are not representative? You are
:28:53. > :28:55.basically quoting the results of a small percentage of our
:28:56. > :28:58.Parliamentary candidates. It's pretty safe to say when you look at
:28:59. > :29:04.their views, they might be right or wrong, that's not my point, it's
:29:05. > :29:11.fairly safe to say that new Labour is dead? Again, I don't think people
:29:12. > :29:15.see things in terms of gold -- old or new Labour. We are standing at a
:29:16. > :29:20.Labour Party. We are a great country, but we have big challenges.
:29:21. > :29:24.We want to make sure that people can achieve their dreams and aspirations
:29:25. > :29:27.in this country. Too many people are not in that position. Too many
:29:28. > :29:31.people worry about the prospects of their children. Too many people do
:29:32. > :29:35.not earn a wage they can live off. Too many people are worried about
:29:36. > :29:38.the change. We have to make sure we are giving people a stake in the
:29:39. > :29:42.future. That is a Labour thing, you want to call it old or new come I
:29:43. > :29:52.don't care. It's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives in
:29:53. > :29:54.terms of who runs the next government. That one of your
:29:55. > :29:57.candidate we spoke to things that the party's relationship with the
:29:58. > :30:01.unions is to close. 30% of them think it should be closer. You have
:30:02. > :30:07.spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates. Why should the others be any
:30:08. > :30:10.different? It's a fairly representative Sample. Many people
:30:11. > :30:14.working on this set are the member of the union, the National union of
:30:15. > :30:17.journalists. People that came here to this Conference would have been
:30:18. > :30:22.brought here by trade union members. Do you think the relationship should
:30:23. > :30:27.be closer? I think it is where it should be. It should not be closer?
:30:28. > :30:30.I think that trade unions help create wealth in our country. If you
:30:31. > :30:35.look at some other success stories we are in the north-west, GM
:30:36. > :30:39.Vauxhall is there because you have trade unions working in partnership
:30:40. > :30:44.with government and local employees to make sure we kept producing cars.
:30:45. > :30:49.I'm not asking if unions are good or bad, I'm asking if Labour should be
:30:50. > :30:56.closer. You are presupposing, by the tone of your question, that our
:30:57. > :31:00.relationship is a problem. Let's turn to the English question. Why do
:31:01. > :31:03.you need a constitutional conversation where you have to
:31:04. > :31:07.discuss whether English people voting on English matters is
:31:08. > :31:10.unfair? We want to give the regions and cities in England more voice,
:31:11. > :31:17.but let's get it into perspective, we have had a situation where the
:31:18. > :31:24.Scottish people, as desired buying rich people, have to remain part of
:31:25. > :31:28.the UK -- by English people. What is the answer to the question? I don't
:31:29. > :31:30.want to get to a situation where people have voted for solidarity
:31:31. > :31:36.where you have a prime ministers talking about dividing up the UK
:31:37. > :31:40.Parliament. Let me put this point you. Most Scottish voters think it
:31:41. > :31:44.is unfair that Scottish MPs get to vote on English matters. That comes
:31:45. > :31:50.out in Scottish polls. Why don't you see it as unfair? If the Scots see
:31:51. > :31:53.it as unfair, why don't you? This is an age-old conundrum that has been
:31:54. > :31:57.around for 100 years and it's not so simple. You're talking about making
:31:58. > :32:01.a fundamental change to the British constitution on a whim. It's not
:32:02. > :32:08.just an issue, in respect of Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can
:32:09. > :32:12.vote on matters relating to the transport of England and transport
:32:13. > :32:16.is a devolved matter in London. In Wales, there are a number of
:32:17. > :32:20.competencies that Welsh MPs can vote on and they've been devolved to
:32:21. > :32:23.them. So with all of these different votes, you will exclude different
:32:24. > :32:27.MPs? I think the solution is not necessarily to obsess about what is
:32:28. > :32:31.happening between MPs in Westminster. That turns people
:32:32. > :32:34.politics. We need to devolve more. I think we should be giving the cities
:32:35. > :32:40.and regions of England more autonomy in the way that we are doing in
:32:41. > :32:43.Scotland, but I've got to say, Andrew, it's dishonourable and in
:32:44. > :32:48.bad faith for the Prime Minister to now seek to link what he agreed
:32:49. > :32:52.before the referendum to this issue of English votes for English MPs.
:32:53. > :32:56.That is totally dishonourable and in bad faith. You have promised to
:32:57. > :33:00.devolve more tax powers to Scotland. What would they be? This is being
:33:01. > :33:05.decided at the moment. I cannot give you the exact detail of what the tax
:33:06. > :33:08.powers would be. Could you give us a rough idea? There is a White Paper
:33:09. > :33:14.being produced before November and there will be draft legislation put
:33:15. > :33:18.forward in January. Your leader has vowed that this will happen. And you
:33:19. > :33:22.haven't got a policy? You can't tell us what the tax powers will be? I
:33:23. > :33:26.can't tell you on this programme right now. But we have accepted the
:33:27. > :33:30.principle on further devolution on tax, spending on welfare and we will
:33:31. > :33:33.have further details in due course. Your leader promised to maintain the
:33:34. > :33:38.Barnett Formula for the foreseeable future. Why is that fair when it
:33:39. > :33:43.enshrines more per capita spending for Scotland than it does for Wales,
:33:44. > :33:47.which is poorer, and more than many of the poorer regions in England
:33:48. > :33:51.get? Why is that fair? We have said that in terms of looking at go -
:33:52. > :33:54.local government spending playing out in this Parliament, we have
:33:55. > :33:58.looked at what the government has done which is having already
:33:59. > :34:02.deprived communities having money taken away from them and wealthier
:34:03. > :34:09.communities are getting more. We accept that the Barnett Formula has
:34:10. > :34:11.worked well. How has it works well? There is a cross parliamentary
:34:12. > :34:17.consensus as they don't know what to do about it. Why has it works well,
:34:18. > :34:22.when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm not sure by I accept that when you
:34:23. > :34:26.look at overall underspend -- government spending. It is per
:34:27. > :34:33.capita spending in Scotland, which is way ahead of per capita spending
:34:34. > :34:38.in Wales, but per capita incomes in Scotland are way ahead of Wales Why
:34:39. > :34:42.is that fair Labour politician? We have said we want to have more
:34:43. > :34:46.equitable distribution. You haven't, you have said you will keep the
:34:47. > :34:51.Barnett Formula. I'm not sure necessarily punishing Scotland is
:34:52. > :34:54.the way to go. The way that this debate is going, what message does
:34:55. > :34:59.it send to the Scottish people? I want to be clear, I am delighted
:35:00. > :35:01.with the result we have got. The unity and solidarity where
:35:02. > :35:06.maintaining across the nations of the United Kingdom. All of this
:35:07. > :35:09.separatist talk, setting up different nations of the UK against
:35:10. > :35:12.each other goes completely against what we've all been campaigning for
:35:13. > :35:16.over the last two years, and we shouldn't have any truck with it.
:35:17. > :35:21.Coming onto the announcement on the minimum wage, you would increase it
:35:22. > :35:25.by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which would be over five years. That is
:35:26. > :35:31.all you are going to do over five years. Have you worked out how much
:35:32. > :35:38.of this increase will be clawed back in taxation and fewer benefits? Work
:35:39. > :35:43.has been done on it. How much? I can't give you an exact figure. The
:35:44. > :35:48.policy pays for itself. The way we have looked at this, we looked at
:35:49. > :35:51.the government figures, and if people are earning more, they would
:35:52. > :35:56.therefore be paying more in income tax and they will be receiving less
:35:57. > :36:00.in benefit and will pay out less in tax credits, so we are confident
:36:01. > :36:03.that this will pay for itself. I'm not asking about the pavement, I'm
:36:04. > :36:09.asking what it means for low paid workers will stop they will get an
:36:10. > :36:14.extra 30p per hour -- about the payment. How much of the 30p to they
:36:15. > :36:19.get to keep? In terms of what they get in the first instance, somebody
:36:20. > :36:22.on the minimum wage now, with our proposal, would get in the region of
:36:23. > :36:28.?3000 a year more than they are at the moment. That is before tax and
:36:29. > :36:35.benefits. How much do they keep I cannot give you an exact figure Why
:36:36. > :36:38.don't you give me an exact figure if you've done the modelling? We are
:36:39. > :36:42.talking about some of the lowest paid people in the country, and I
:36:43. > :36:48.would suggest to you that going down this route, they would face a
:36:49. > :36:51.marginal rate of tax of 50 or 6 % and they will not keep most of this
:36:52. > :36:56.increase you are talking about. I don't accept your figures. But you
:36:57. > :37:02.haven't got any of your own. I just don't have any in my head I can give
:37:03. > :37:05.you right now. Don't you think out policies before you announce them?
:37:06. > :37:08.Of course we think our policies before we announce them but we are
:37:09. > :37:12.confident people have more in their pocket and will be better off with
:37:13. > :37:14.the changes proposed, and we are also seeking to incentivise
:37:15. > :37:18.employers to pay a living wage as well. At the end of the day, as I
:37:19. > :37:23.said, the economy is recovering great, but we know, at the moment,
:37:24. > :37:26.it's still not delivering for a huge number of your viewers and we're
:37:27. > :37:29.determined to do something about it. The status quo is not an option And
:37:30. > :37:35.even joining me. Twice in three days. You can't have too much of a
:37:36. > :37:37.good thing. I am mad. He said that, not me.
:37:38. > :37:40.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. We
:37:41. > :37:42.say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for
:37:43. > :37:47.Coming up here in twenty minutes, we'll be joined by John Prescott to
:37:48. > :37:50.talk about the challenge facing Labour as their conference starts
:37:51. > :38:07.Good morning. The sun is shhning and the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:08. > :38:12.Good morning. The sun is shhning and we are live as we chew over enters
:38:13. > :38:22.week in both Scottish and English politics. Coming up, remembdr this?
:38:23. > :38:27.Mrs Bradley, will you sit down? Code the ghost of a Vim county c`n be
:38:28. > :38:31.back? Business leaders call for the political map of the West to be
:38:32. > :38:38.re`drawn as the government promises greater powers for Bristol. I'm
:38:39. > :38:45.joined this morning by James Gray, a Scot who has come down south and is
:38:46. > :38:53.a Conservative MP, and Don Foster, who we are told is related to the
:38:54. > :38:58.Fraser clan. James, you werd made a shadow Scottish minister in the
:38:59. > :39:05.Conservative government but you were fired after a week. Yes, I was a
:39:06. > :39:10.very strong unionist and I welcomed the results. I also welcomed what
:39:11. > :39:15.David Cameron said on the steps of Downing Street. If we are going to
:39:16. > :39:22.increase Scottish devolution, we have to correct the problems in
:39:23. > :39:29.England. You were fired bec`use you didn't want MFPs. I was firdd
:39:30. > :39:41.because I was proposing exactly what I was proposing! Don Foster, are we
:39:42. > :39:48.seeing the end of the union? Yes, it survived, but it will fragmdnt now.
:39:49. > :39:52.I'm delighted, I'm pleased there was such a clear and decisive rdsult.
:39:53. > :39:57.But it is vital we deliver on the promises that were made back in
:39:58. > :40:04.2012, not in the last few wdeks to give further devolution to the
:40:05. > :40:09.people of Scotland in the event of a no result. And secondly, to look at
:40:10. > :40:15.further devolution of powers away from Westminster to the reghons and
:40:16. > :40:25.of course further devolution to Wales, which we are doing. Lore on
:40:26. > :40:29.Scotland later. First, the Labour Party is pinning its hopes of
:40:30. > :40:34.winning back power by addressing concerns on the cost of livhng. Ed
:40:35. > :40:41.Miliband has promised a hikd in the minimum wage to ?8. It follows
:40:42. > :40:51.pledges to control increases in rent and cap energy bills. How wdll does
:40:52. > :40:54.all this play with voters? In the autumn sunshine, acthvists
:40:55. > :41:03.assembled to go leaflet distributing. In the forefront, they
:41:04. > :41:10.are supporting their general election candidate. It is absolutely
:41:11. > :41:16.crucial we win this seat, it will have an impact on whether wd have a
:41:17. > :41:20.Labour government next time. With her is local activist Andy Davies
:41:21. > :41:27.with first`hand experience of high housing costs. ?800 the quite a
:41:28. > :41:37.small property. She is helphng to pay her daughter's rent. Thdre is a
:41:38. > :41:40.shortfall of ?130 with the benefit so we are paying the differdnce it
:41:41. > :41:47.enables her to have somewhere secure to live. Fewer than a fifth of
:41:48. > :41:52.people live in private rentdd homes, said the policy may have little
:41:53. > :41:56.impact for Labour and their leader. I'm a private tenant, so rent
:41:57. > :42:01.control would be interesting. I probably would vote Labour `nyway. I
:42:02. > :42:09.work for a Housing Associathon so I know quite a lot about local rent. I
:42:10. > :42:14.think it's quite a good ide`. It won't get me to vote Labour. It is
:42:15. > :42:21.one policy. It wouldn't bring me back to Labour. The responsd of
:42:22. > :42:33.others is more difficult. L`bour proposes capping rent, but that our
:42:34. > :42:52.ICS says arbitrate caps are not a solution. They are also campaigning
:42:53. > :43:00.on specific issues. In the crowd is Conservative MP Chris Skidmore.
:43:01. > :43:03.Joining us now is one of Labour s biggest champions, Bristol LP Dawn.
:43:04. > :43:10.Thank you for coming on this morning. If you want to win, you
:43:11. > :43:17.need to take places like Swhndon and Kingswood in the West Country. How
:43:18. > :43:21.confident are you? I think with the right policies that are addressing
:43:22. > :43:26.the real problems people face, whether it be not having a home
:43:27. > :43:32.rent levels, having to do lots of part`time jobs, energy bills, these
:43:33. > :43:39.are the things around the cost of living crisis that Labour is talking
:43:40. > :43:44.about, that we here day in `nd day out from communities across the
:43:45. > :43:54.South West, in places like Kingswood, Swindon and Bristol
:43:55. > :43:57.South. This week, we need to set out how we're going to stop people
:43:58. > :44:05.living in fear about how thdy are going to pay their energy, whether
:44:06. > :44:14.they will have to move. How they make sure their children have access
:44:15. > :44:18.to decent schools. So are you going to promise an end to austerhty? Is
:44:19. > :44:25.that out of the window in a new Labour government? Well, people are
:44:26. > :44:28.much more understanding in recognising the challenges that our
:44:29. > :44:33.country faces. They know we have to live in a way that makes sure we are
:44:34. > :44:38.supporting those that we nedd to, but also dealing with the problems
:44:39. > :44:46.that we will inherit in unddrfunding the National Health Service. So what
:44:47. > :44:50.we have to do is make sure we can address those big, economic
:44:51. > :44:59.questions without punishing hard`working families. How would you
:45:00. > :45:04.do it? Well, if we had a higher national minimum wage, people in
:45:05. > :45:07.Kingswood and South Bristol would have more money to spend, they would
:45:08. > :45:12.be spending it locally on goods and services that need other people to
:45:13. > :45:19.be employed. If we make surd we build more houses rents will be
:45:20. > :45:22.decent, we are employing people coming out of the South Bristol
:45:23. > :45:29.College with the skills to work in that industry. That is the way
:45:30. > :45:40.forward. People are not daft, they know that you have to invest in
:45:41. > :45:43.order to grow. Thank you. J`mes Gray, Labour's plan is clear,
:45:44. > :45:48.they're going to hammer you on the cost of living. It is not clear
:45:49. > :45:57.Dawn made some very woolly points there. Minimum wage ` someone has to
:45:58. > :45:59.pay those minimum wages. Fixing rents gash therefore landlords would
:46:00. > :46:15.be accepting less than they currently do. Unemployment hs
:46:16. > :46:24.falling at a record rate. Don Foster, you've been in coalhtion.
:46:25. > :46:28.You guys are in it together The economy is recovering. Ordinary folk
:46:29. > :46:36.aren't feeling it, and this has been the recession paid for by the poor.
:46:37. > :46:43.That is what you both supervised. I don't think that is true. These
:46:44. > :46:50.Labour proposals are wrong. Firstly, rent control. We had that until
:46:51. > :46:54.1988, and up to their, the number of privately rented homes declhned
:46:55. > :47:01.dramatically. Now it has increased. Of course, we must tackle rogue
:47:02. > :47:07.landlords, but we've seen a doubling of the availability of priv`te
:47:08. > :47:13.rented accommodation. Yes, we need to build more homes. But people
:47:14. > :47:21.don't think of you as being on their side. One key thing we have done,
:47:22. > :47:26.something Labour has refused to back, is actually raising the tax
:47:27. > :47:38.threshold. That has taken 2 million of the lowest paid out of t`king ``
:47:39. > :47:43.paying tax altogether. That has put real money into the pockets of the
:47:44. > :47:51.less well off. That was a t`x cut for everybody, it was a tax cut the
:47:52. > :48:02.US well. `` a tax cut for you as well. We have improved the dconomy
:48:03. > :48:10.in a way that is fair. Now, back to the Scottish referendum. We could
:48:11. > :48:15.only watch down here as the Scots held the fate of the countrx in our
:48:16. > :48:19.hands. We were reminded Scots have their own parliament, free
:48:20. > :48:27.prescriptions, three kept the elderly and pre`hired on. Should we
:48:28. > :48:36.have that to? It has led to the calls for the creation of htge
:48:37. > :48:41.region government. It is an Atlantic port, just like
:48:42. > :48:46.Bristol. It fizzles with culture and music, just like Bristol. It is
:48:47. > :48:49.roughly the same size, and has an elected mayor, like Bristol. But
:48:50. > :48:55.there is one key difference between the way they do things in Lhverpool
:48:56. > :48:59.and Bristol. Here, the City Council has combined forces with thd
:49:00. > :49:04.surrounding local authoritids. They speak with one voice on matters like
:49:05. > :49:08.regeneration and transport. They hope that with the spirit of
:49:09. > :49:13.devolution very much in the air that will help them win mord money
:49:14. > :49:18.and power from Westminster. I meet the man in charge of this ndw beast.
:49:19. > :49:25.He says for Westminster, coling together is the only show in town.
:49:26. > :49:30.Governments have said they want to see structures like combined
:49:31. > :49:36.authorities in place, and they are essential requirements if any area
:49:37. > :49:39.is going to be able to get ` reasonable portion of national
:49:40. > :49:47.funding around growth devolved to them. If we don't go for th`t model,
:49:48. > :49:53.then you stand to lose out to other city regions who have gone down that
:49:54. > :49:57.road. It's not just the six Liverpool councils that havd
:49:58. > :50:02.combined. Regions around Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle and Chatfidld have
:50:03. > :50:08.done the same. So, would Brhstol follow suit? 1 million people are
:50:09. > :50:12.served by the four councils. The current setup has been labelled
:50:13. > :50:15.slow, inefficient and bureatcratic by the man who used to head up the
:50:16. > :50:23.lake or's local enterprise partnership. Running anything with
:50:24. > :50:29.four politicians at a meeting who are primarily therefore thehr own
:50:30. > :50:40.interests, to guard their own interests, is a slow way to progress
:50:41. > :50:46.anything. Rather than having for representatives always carefully
:50:47. > :50:49.navigating each other, it would be more sensible for us to agrde who we
:50:50. > :50:54.are and what we want to do `ny more joined up way. Any talk of joining
:50:55. > :51:00.up councils in the West brings back finger pointing of what went on at a
:51:01. > :51:10.vent can dig out. You are a very silly woman indeed! It was `bolished
:51:11. > :51:13.in 1996. Memories of a bin still haunt the North Somerset le`der who
:51:14. > :51:19.sees no reason to redraw thd political map. For a lot of the
:51:20. > :51:23.communities outside a vent, whether that be North East Somerset North
:51:24. > :51:30.Somerset, a lot of the monex here was spent on services in thd centre
:51:31. > :51:34.of Bristol. So the services that people got in North Somerset were
:51:35. > :51:39.very poor and spas. That's the point. You can't tax people and
:51:40. > :51:43.spend it somewhere else and call it community involvement in local
:51:44. > :51:48.government. Council leaders say the status quo is working well, but
:51:49. > :51:52.government may be about to dmbark on a mystery tour of its own. Ht is
:51:53. > :51:56.important we have wider civhc engagement about how to improve
:51:57. > :52:00.governance throughout the UK, including how to empower our great
:52:01. > :52:07.cities. We will say more about this in the coming days. So, with the
:52:08. > :52:10.Scottish question finally sdttled and the mood music for more
:52:11. > :52:14.devolution in the regions, some are questioning whether it is thme for
:52:15. > :52:23.the Fab four councils of thd old a bin area to do what John Lennon once
:52:24. > :52:26.described. Come together! The leader of Bath and North East
:52:27. > :52:33.Somerset Council joins us, thank you for coming in. Is it a good idea for
:52:34. > :52:50.the councils of a vent to come back together? It is an absolutely
:52:51. > :52:57.disastrous idea. A Vernon `` Avon was one of the worst things to
:52:58. > :53:03.happen to the area. We have gone through three electoral cycles and
:53:04. > :53:10.that is delivering a lot now. You want the benefits that your area and
:53:11. > :53:19.South glass dish `` South Gloucestershire once it all for
:53:20. > :53:21.them. There may be debates because you are having important discussions
:53:22. > :53:27.about warehousing goes, where transport goes. We lost out on a
:53:28. > :53:30.Metro system because South Gloucestershire and Bristol could
:53:31. > :53:34.not agree the route. That would never have happened with ond
:53:35. > :53:41.authority. I don't see how xou can say that. There is an econolic boom
:53:42. > :53:48.going on in South Gloucestershire, there is development in Somdrset,
:53:49. > :53:56.North Somerset, Bristol. Yot can't have a lot of power... What you are
:53:57. > :53:59.talking about the forward dhfferent areas with different structtres
:54:00. > :54:09.This structure works very wdll for Bath and North East Somerset. If you
:54:10. > :54:13.are talking about bringing powers down to the regions, cannot work if
:54:14. > :54:21.you've got these little loc`l authorities? It is simple. Liverpool
:54:22. > :54:25.a group of local authorities decided it was in their interest to come
:54:26. > :54:30.together and work together hn that particular way. Here, we've got four
:54:31. > :54:34.local authorities who don't want to do it that way. It is perfectly
:54:35. > :54:39.possible for them to work together, which they do. A lot of dechsions
:54:40. > :54:42.are being made through the western England partnership on transport,
:54:43. > :54:47.economics and so on. They should be allowed to do it their way. It is
:54:48. > :54:52.possible to devolve powers down to different structures in different
:54:53. > :54:55.parts of the country. I'm a great believer in localism and I think the
:54:56. > :55:02.local people should decide. It seems to me that we have good, normal
:55:03. > :55:09.units of government here. If you put them all together, you might end up
:55:10. > :55:16.with a mass. I was a special adviser when we demolished Avon, so I
:55:17. > :55:21.wouldn't want to see it comd back. Well, you need mass to make things
:55:22. > :55:25.work. I don't think you do. We want the Fire Service to be Wiltshire
:55:26. > :55:32.`based. Big is not necessarhly beautiful. The problem with that is
:55:33. > :55:38.we have not got an Alex Sallond down there. Thank goodness! We don't have
:55:39. > :55:52.someone speaking powerfully for the region. At the height of her powers,
:55:53. > :55:57.only 80% of people knew that Margaret Thatcher was the ldader of
:55:58. > :56:13.the country. That was just `fter the Falklands War. So you can come up
:56:14. > :56:19.with how many people know their politicians. What people want is
:56:20. > :56:23.good delivery of services, good value for money. That is
:56:24. > :56:27.overwhelmingly the key issud. If you look around, we have good
:56:28. > :56:32.governance, the delivery of services. We have some of the best
:56:33. > :56:37.schools and health care. Do you want more power? I think devoluthon of
:56:38. > :56:41.more powers is a really good idea. It has to be a bottom`up process.
:56:42. > :56:46.Communities have to define what powers they want and the government
:56:47. > :56:52.has to listen. Devolution is clearly coming. Wales are going to get more
:56:53. > :57:05.power. They have a strong political voice. They will be heard in London
:57:06. > :57:09.in a way that we won't be. Look planning has to be done loc`lly
:57:10. > :57:17.That is an entirely different question to the 1 we're dealing with
:57:18. > :57:19.with the English question. We need to balance the English
:57:20. > :57:30.representation in Westminstdr to correct that. That is nothing to do
:57:31. > :57:38.with localism. We must move on. Thank you for coming in. Now,
:57:39. > :57:42.Scotland may have dominated the political news this week, btt that
:57:43. > :57:50.wasn't all that happened. Hdre is our rundown in 60 seconds. @
:57:51. > :57:54.shortage of staff may have put psychiatric patients in the West at
:57:55. > :57:58.risk. The a Vernon Wiltshird mental health partnership says it has taken
:57:59. > :58:03.action to address the concerns raised by the Care Quality
:58:04. > :58:08.Commission. Councillors in Swindon voted to hold a public enquhry into
:58:09. > :58:12.a fire at business cycling plant. Large piles of waste burned the two
:58:13. > :58:16.months before they were fin`lly put out on Monday. The role of the
:58:17. > :58:22.Council, Environment Agency and waste firm will all be examhned
:58:23. > :58:26.Welcher's Chief Constable is the latest to be investigated bx the
:58:27. > :58:30.police watchdog following complaints at the way his force handled
:58:31. > :58:33.allegations of sexual abuse. The Chief Constable welcomed thd
:58:34. > :58:38.enquiry. And for the sixth month in ` row,
:58:39. > :58:44.unemployment fell across thd West. Just under 27,000 people cl`imed
:58:45. > :58:51.job`seeker's allowance, but wages are struggling to keep up whth
:58:52. > :58:56.inflation. I think we've all learnt a lot about
:58:57. > :59:00.Scotland this week. Let's jtst come to you first, James. I you going to
:59:01. > :59:03.make it clear to the Prime Linister you will not accept further
:59:04. > :59:08.devolution, more powers for Scotland, unless England get their
:59:09. > :59:12.share to? That is correct. We cannot go ahead with the promise wd made to
:59:13. > :59:20.Scotland until English problems have been sorted out. It was not a
:59:21. > :59:31.promise, it was about, it c`nnot be ignored. The bow was made bx Gordon
:59:32. > :59:34.Brown. The parliament was not consulted, I will not vote for
:59:35. > :59:44.devolution to Scotland until such time as the English question is and
:59:45. > :59:49.said at the same time. At the time of the Edinburgh settlement in 012,
:59:50. > :59:53.all three UK party said there would be more devolution to Scotl`nd. In
:59:54. > :59:58.March of this year, all thrde parties repeated that pledgd. It was
:59:59. > :00:02.then repeated yet again with Gordon Brown and others just beford the
:00:03. > :00:07.referendum. We have got to deliver that pledge. There are issuds to do
:00:08. > :00:13.with devolution within Engl`nd, Wales and Northern Ireland which
:00:14. > :00:17.need addressing. Huge issues. Yes, I don't deny that, but you cannot
:00:18. > :00:22.allow that to derail the cldar commitment we made. How could you
:00:23. > :00:25.ever show your face in Scotland again if you go back on what the
:00:26. > :00:29.Prime Minister said would h`ppen? This is the difference betwden a
:00:30. > :00:34.government minister and a backbencher. All matters to me is
:00:35. > :00:40.the people of North Wiltshire. Well, on that note, we must leave you
:00:41. > :00:43.that is all we have time for. Thank you to my guests, Don Foster and
:00:44. > :00:58.James Gray. We'll be back ndxt week. the Conservative mayor's policy No
:00:59. > :01:06.more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back to you.
:01:07. > :01:08.Welcome back the to Labour conference, where we're joined
:01:09. > :01:12.by the latest hot new stand-up comedian on the Manchester circuit.
:01:13. > :01:17.I speak of course of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott.
:01:18. > :01:19.In between giving tub-thumping speeches to rally
:01:20. > :01:22.the party faithful this week, he's appearing at the Comedy Store.
:01:23. > :01:25.He was also of course the man behind the last attempt to solve
:01:26. > :01:36.Our political panel is with me as well. John, we have got Scottish
:01:37. > :01:39.votes for Scottish laws, and more Scottish votes for Scottish laws,
:01:40. > :01:45.why not English votes for English laws? That's an English parliament
:01:46. > :01:49.in a major constitutional change and that is what has started. I
:01:50. > :01:53.certainly don't agree with that I campaign for powers to be given to
:01:54. > :01:56.the regions. When I first tested it in the Northeast, I lost. Why?
:01:57. > :02:00.Because they said they were not the same powers you are giving to
:02:01. > :02:08.Scotland. So, basically, we must do that, decentralised, not just with a
:02:09. > :02:12.Westminster Parliament. As you know, in 32 years I produce the
:02:13. > :02:17.alternative. You've kept that for 32 years? I took it off my shelf and
:02:18. > :02:22.everybody was talking about it now, but they weren't in 1982. This was
:02:23. > :02:29.my five plan. 200 meetings all around the country -- five-year
:02:30. > :02:33.plan. You wrote this morning, not 35 years ago, that this was a plot to
:02:34. > :02:36.turn Westminster into a Tory dominated English parliament. But if
:02:37. > :02:42.that is how England had voted, it's not a plot, it's democracy. You can
:02:43. > :02:46.get reform in a more federal structure, and even English
:02:47. > :02:49.parliament does fit into the federal structure and that is what the
:02:50. > :02:54.Liberals say, but you need a fairer representation. It might be quite
:02:55. > :02:58.radical, and we could get rid of the Lord's, and have representation in
:02:59. > :03:04.the region there. It can't be done in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's
:03:05. > :03:07.assuming he has been sold out, and it was less than a week ago they
:03:08. > :03:13.remain the announcement. We have to get it carried out will stop but
:03:14. > :03:18.don't connect it to the English parliament that fixes it in their
:03:19. > :03:20.favour. It may be pretty low politics from David Cameron to come
:03:21. > :03:27.up with something that was not in the vowel -- a bow on the front page
:03:28. > :03:30.of the daily record, but if they do not agree with what he said at the
:03:31. > :03:34.time of the general election, he will say two in which voters, if you
:03:35. > :03:38.want real protection in England vote Conservative, and if you want
:03:39. > :03:42.Scottish MPs deciding on your level of taxation, vote Labour. He is
:03:43. > :03:46.scared to death of UKIP may have been saying it for a while. In the
:03:47. > :03:50.constitutional changes have to see what is fair and equitable, the same
:03:51. > :03:54.with the Barnett fallen -- formula. But what you have to do is get a
:03:55. > :03:58.fair system. It takes time to discuss it. I was doing a 32 years
:03:59. > :04:02.ago and nobody wanted to know. We had better start a debate, and don't
:04:03. > :04:07.mixed up the constitutional type of English parliament with what we are
:04:08. > :04:13.promising in Scotland. It is about trust and politics. So the turnout
:04:14. > :04:17.of the north-east regional assembly and they voted against it. The
:04:18. > :04:20.turnout that the police and crime commissioners was low. How'd you get
:04:21. > :04:25.people interested in the process and it doesn't feel like a conversation
:04:26. > :04:28.in smoky rooms and you go back to British people and tell them what
:04:29. > :04:33.you decided? If you look at the turnout in Scotland whether they
:04:34. > :04:35.were interested in, now it is phenomenally interesting. It is
:04:36. > :04:39.about real power, having real influence. What they said to me in
:04:40. > :04:43.the north-east, they said we know you have an idea for devolution and
:04:44. > :04:46.you will give us assemblies but it doesn't have the power of Scotland,
:04:47. > :04:50.but now we are talking about equity, similar distribution of
:04:51. > :04:53.power and similar resources. The English people are entitled to that.
:04:54. > :04:59.They have been robbed of it for too long. Labour has long struggled with
:05:00. > :05:02.what it should do over devolving power to the regions and you came up
:05:03. > :05:07.with regional assemblies. Ed Miliband has a different idea of
:05:08. > :05:10.city regions. Aren't they the same idea of yours but without a
:05:11. > :05:14.democratic accountability? Can we really trust the greater region of
:05:15. > :05:18.Manchester or Birmingham to deliver if there is not the same kind of
:05:19. > :05:24.democratic link with the people I live in whole, and it stops on the
:05:25. > :05:29.boundary of the Pennines -- the city of Hull. We have city regions from
:05:30. > :05:32.Labour because I failed in the north-east to get the assemblies in,
:05:33. > :05:36.and now we have to look at those options. Do you work through city
:05:37. > :05:40.regions? Mainly in the north, I might say. Even the federal
:05:41. > :05:43.structure they talk about my be in the North or Midlands with
:05:44. > :05:48.Birmingham, but there are a number of options and that is where I
:05:49. > :05:52.believe that what the White Paper should do is to put those options
:05:53. > :05:56.in. Instead of having to put them together, state what you want to do
:05:57. > :05:59.in the English regions. Leave it to the legislation, which is what will
:06:00. > :06:03.happen with the Scottish, and once you've agreed it, you do it after.
:06:04. > :06:07.You have to start the radical debate about giving the English regions,
:06:08. > :06:11.not centralised in London, but decentralised. Do you need to have a
:06:12. > :06:17.separate English parliament? Wouldn't it just satisfy the English
:06:18. > :06:21.if you simply said to MPs, when it's in English matter in the House of
:06:22. > :06:24.Commons, stop interfering? I would disagree with that. I would say put
:06:25. > :06:29.the option in the White Paper. The White Paper seems to be talking
:06:30. > :06:32.about Scotland. If you don't put the commitments to what you want to do
:06:33. > :06:37.with the English regions, people might say I'm not supporting that.
:06:38. > :06:41.Put the framework in the White Paper, but a different timetable.
:06:42. > :06:45.Devolution in this country has been to a different timetable, whether
:06:46. > :06:49.it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start looking fundamentally at it and the
:06:50. > :06:56.Labour Party should be leading the debate. Let's come the no campaign
:06:57. > :07:00.lost Glasgow. The cradle of British socialism. -- let's come to
:07:01. > :07:03.something that happened with the referendum as the no campaign lost
:07:04. > :07:08.Glasgow. Is it a sign that the Labour Party are finding it hard to
:07:09. > :07:12.what -- hold on to their traditional working class vote question mark its
:07:13. > :07:16.different in Manchester. They would say it is a message about
:07:17. > :07:25.decentralisation. If we change the message a bit maybe. We have been
:07:26. > :07:28.thinking that now it is that either the Labour Party to recognise it is
:07:29. > :07:33.not the old message and old areas that will win it. I remember
:07:34. > :07:38.covering the 1997 referendum in Scotland and you gave a tub thumping
:07:39. > :07:41.speech in a big hall in Hamilton and you really connected. Obviously it
:07:42. > :07:44.was a different referendum because that was about a parliament, not
:07:45. > :07:49.independence and Alex Salmond was on your side, but you, and Ingush MP,
:07:50. > :07:53.an English minister, connected to the core Labour voters in a way that
:07:54. > :08:02.Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an English MP. You make a fair point.
:08:03. > :08:09.In the big rally, I had to point out I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on
:08:10. > :08:14.with it. What I was saying there was that I supported you, as I did for
:08:15. > :08:17.30 odd years when Labour MPs were against any thinker Scotland. I
:08:18. > :08:20.support you, but I expect you to come in with your Scottish MPs and
:08:21. > :08:25.make sure the English get their share of the powers and resources
:08:26. > :08:31.and that is what that speech was about, and by God, it's as relevant
:08:32. > :08:35.today as it was then. I haven't got any Scottish MPs, I live in
:08:36. > :08:43.Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote? No. What would you have done? I
:08:44. > :08:49.can't tell you. You would have voted yes, come on. I'm interested. What
:08:50. > :08:56.do you want to hear from the speech by Ed Miliband? People are wondering
:08:57. > :09:00.about where Labour stands. There are many issues we have flown around,
:09:01. > :09:07.and we've done the discussion just now. What he has got to do where he
:09:08. > :09:11.started off on the minimum wage You are trying to deal with those left
:09:12. > :09:15.behind. Those are the bottom. That is the Labour message. The National
:09:16. > :09:18.Health Service is our creation and we have to say it will be saved If
:09:19. > :09:22.you can save all of these bankers with all the money and say you
:09:23. > :09:27.haven't got the money for the NHS, say where we stand. That will be the
:09:28. > :09:31.priority. The third one, housing. I have had a revolutionary idea that
:09:32. > :09:34.you can buy a house without a deposit and without the interest or
:09:35. > :09:40.paying the stamp duty, and you buy it by rent. The government gives
:09:41. > :09:44.?150 billion guaranteed housing for up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary
:09:45. > :09:47.people who can use their rent to buy the house. It's happening in the
:09:48. > :09:51.north-east. Why are they not listening to you? You have said more
:09:52. > :09:56.to connect with ordinary people in three minutes than we will probably
:09:57. > :09:59.hear in an hour. I've been telling them, made, and we have a commission
:10:00. > :10:05.coming out. People don't want commissions, they want action. I
:10:06. > :10:09.say, I know what we do, housing health, the people. That is our
:10:10. > :10:14.language. That is why we are Labour. That a lot of people run away. I
:10:15. > :10:18.think in Glasgow, they wondered about that. If you turn up on the
:10:19. > :10:21.same three platforms, and I know it's a critical thing to say, they
:10:22. > :10:27.think in Scotland it is a coalition. I don't like coalitions. It looks
:10:28. > :10:31.like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe it was saved because Rupert Murdoch
:10:32. > :10:37.started the The Times about the polls and he couldn't even get the
:10:38. > :10:41.sun to say that they wanted. We haven't got time. I wondered how
:10:42. > :10:47.long it would take is to get to repot Murdoch. You beat the record.
:10:48. > :10:51.-- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is quite behind on the economy, and
:10:52. > :10:54.people are looking at Labour, trying to work out if they can trust you to
:10:55. > :11:00.the stewards of the economy given 2010. Under Labour 's plans there is
:11:01. > :11:05.20 billion of cuts to make in the next Parliament. Will we hear
:11:06. > :11:11.anything about that? It is about the proportion of debt to GDP. I know it
:11:12. > :11:16.sounds historic, but our debt when we came in in 1997 was a proportion
:11:17. > :11:22.of GDP, and you must know this, and that was less than Thatcher's. Why
:11:23. > :11:26.did we get done on debt? You guys run around saying a lot about it,
:11:27. > :11:32.but the fact is it was worse under Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a
:11:33. > :11:36.hero. If you look at the debt, it is still a problem. Gordon Brown did an
:11:37. > :11:41.awful lot to solve those problems, but they were still left with us.
:11:42. > :11:44.What we have to have is a sensible discussion like we had on devolution
:11:45. > :11:48.and now we are talking about finances. Let's look at the public
:11:49. > :11:52.sector debt and the price we pay. We need to be putting the record
:11:53. > :11:56.straight. The problem is they tell me, John, we have to look to the
:11:57. > :11:59.future not the past. We are getting screwed on the past and we have to
:12:00. > :12:05.change it and perhaps Gordon Brown coming in could do something.
:12:06. > :12:09.Finishing on the future, when we did a poll of the Labour candidates you
:12:10. > :12:14.were watching on the big screen when it came up that their favourite
:12:15. > :12:24.to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette Cooper, why did you shout no! That
:12:25. > :12:27.is alive. -- alive. -- that is not true. I know resistance is not
:12:28. > :12:43.strong. What did that mean? You can't get away with anything at
:12:44. > :12:48.a Conference, John. I was dropping comments them to pick up everywhere,
:12:49. > :12:54.I do not wear -- nowhere they got that one from. Good to have you
:12:55. > :12:59.back. Round of applause for former Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for
:13:00. > :13:01.today. Don't applaud them, they are useless.
:13:02. > :13:05.my guests. I'll be back here at Labour conference for the Daily
:13:06. > :13:10.11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring you live coverage of the speech by
:13:11. > :13:14.We're here all week, and next Sunday you can find us in Birmingham for
:13:15. > :13:22.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.