:00:37. > :00:38.Morning folks and welcome to The Sunday Politics,
:00:39. > :00:45.live from the Conservative Conference in Birmingham.
:00:46. > :00:46.There will be one less Conservative MP here after Mark Reckless defected
:00:47. > :00:52.He joins us live from his constituency, where he has
:00:53. > :00:59.It has not been the best of starts for the Prime Minister, as he
:01:00. > :01:02.arrives in Birmingham for the last Tory conference before the election.
:01:03. > :01:05.On top of the Reckless defection, a junior Tory minister has resigned
:01:06. > :01:13.RAF jets have carried out their first mission over Iraq
:01:14. > :01:20.In the West ` keeping it in the family.
:01:21. > :01:24.Now the neice of this Somerset MP has been chosen
:01:25. > :01:28.So is blood thicker than water in politics?
:01:29. > :01:33.In London, how the richest 1% are pulling further away, and why those
:01:34. > :01:37.priced out are choosing to move away.
:01:38. > :01:42.And joining me, three of the country's most loyal journalists,
:01:43. > :01:45.who sadly have yet to resign or defect to our inferior rivals.
:01:46. > :01:51.Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh.
:01:52. > :01:54.And, of course, they'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:55. > :01:58.And you too can get involved by using the hashtag #BBCSP.
:01:59. > :02:01.At the current rate of Tory resignations,
:02:02. > :02:04.Mr Cameron could be speaking to an empty hall when he makes his keynote
:02:05. > :02:08.address to the Tory conference here in Birmingham tomorrow.
:02:09. > :02:12.It's been a classic car crash of a start to the conference, with a UKIP
:02:13. > :02:15.defection, a minister shamed into resignation by a sex scandal and
:02:16. > :02:21.Ed Miliband's memory lapses now look like a little local difficulty.
:02:22. > :02:28.Here's what the Prime Minister had to say
:02:29. > :02:41.These things are frustrating and frankly counter-productive and
:02:42. > :02:44.rather senseless. If you want to have a European referendum, if you
:02:45. > :02:47.want to get the deficit down, if you want to build a stronger Britain
:02:48. > :02:52.that we can be proud of, there is only one option, which is to have a
:02:53. > :02:53.Conservative government after the next election.
:02:54. > :03:02.And Mark Reckless joins me now from Rochester.
:03:03. > :03:09.Welcome to the programme. Why did you lie to all your Conservative
:03:10. > :03:13.colleagues and mislead those who elected you? Well, I am keeping
:03:14. > :03:17.faith with my constituents and keeping my promises to them. You
:03:18. > :03:20.heard the Prime Minister saying that the Conservative led government was
:03:21. > :03:25.dealing with the deficit and cutting immigration. The reality is, we have
:03:26. > :03:29.increased the national debt by more in five years than even Labour
:03:30. > :03:33.managed in 13, and immigration is back up to the levels we saw under
:03:34. > :03:38.Labour. I believe in the promises I made in 2010, and I want to keep my
:03:39. > :03:40.words to my electorate, not least to deal with the deficit, cut
:03:41. > :03:45.immigration, reform the political system, to localise powers back to
:03:46. > :03:48.the community, particularly over house-building. The government has
:03:49. > :03:53.broken its word on all those things are. I want to keep my word to my
:03:54. > :04:00.voters here, and that is why I have done what I have done, by moving to
:04:01. > :04:04.UKIP. You have not kept your words to your Conservative constituency
:04:05. > :04:08.chairman. You assured him 48 hours ago that you would not defect, and
:04:09. > :04:13.you left his voice mail on the Conservative Party chairman's office
:04:14. > :04:17.telephone, missing to come to Birmingham to campaign for the
:04:18. > :04:39.Tories. This is your voice mail .. I have just picked up your e-mail ..
:04:40. > :04:43.So, Friday night, telling Grant Shapps you are coming to Birmingham
:04:44. > :04:50.to campaign for the Tories. The next day, you are joining UKIP. Why did
:04:51. > :04:55.you are a? I sounded a bit more hesitant on that call than I usually
:04:56. > :04:58.do, and I am not sure if that was the full conversation. But you
:04:59. > :05:02.cannot discuss these things in advance, you have to make a
:05:03. > :05:06.decision. I have decided the future of this country is better served by
:05:07. > :05:11.UKIP then it is by the Conservative Party under David Cameron. I made a
:05:12. > :05:21.lot of promises to my constituents, and I want to keep those promises.
:05:22. > :05:26.That is why I am moving to UKIP so I can deliver the change this
:05:27. > :05:33.country really needs. In May of this year, you said that Nigel Farage,
:05:34. > :05:37.quote, poses the most serious threat to a Tory victory at the election.
:05:38. > :05:43.So, you agree, voting UKIP means a Labour government? I think voting
:05:44. > :05:47.UKIP means getting UKIP. While in the past a disproportionate number
:05:48. > :05:50.of UKIP people were ex-Conservatives, now, they are
:05:51. > :05:54.winning a lot more people, from all parties. People are so disillusioned
:05:55. > :05:57.with the political class in Westminster, that they have not
:05:58. > :06:02.voted often for a generation. Those are the people Nigel Farage is
:06:03. > :06:07.inspiring, and frankly, he has also inspired me. What he has done in the
:06:08. > :06:11.last 20 years, building his party, getting people from all walks of
:06:12. > :06:15.life, sending up for ordinary people, I think deserves support.
:06:16. > :06:22.That is a key reason why I am moving. UKIP are now the agents of
:06:23. > :06:27.change. You said it poses them a serious threat to a Tory victory? My
:06:28. > :06:30.ambition is not a Tory victory. We made all of these promises in 2 10
:06:31. > :06:34.as Conservatives, and they have been broken. We now hear from David
:06:35. > :06:39.Cameron about English votes for English laws, supported by Nick
:06:40. > :06:42.Clegg as well, but that is what we said in our manifesto in 2010, and
:06:43. > :06:46.we have done absolutely nothing about it. It is not credible now to
:06:47. > :06:51.pretend that you are going to do those things. They have omitted to
:06:52. > :06:58.give every Scot ?1600 per year in definitely. If you want to stand up
:06:59. > :07:08.for the English taxpayer, and really tackle the debt, then UKIP are the
:07:09. > :07:11.party who will do that. But there is nothing principled about this, this
:07:12. > :07:17.is just an attempt to save your skin. You said UKIP stopped you
:07:18. > :07:20.winning in 2005 - UKIP did not stand in 2010, and you won. You are
:07:21. > :07:26.frightened that UKIP would beat you in the next election, this is to
:07:27. > :07:30.save your skin to me you think I am doing this because I am frightened,
:07:31. > :07:34.you think this is the easy option, to abandon my position in
:07:35. > :07:45.Parliament, but my principles on the line? On the contrary, you look at
:07:46. > :07:48.MPs who have moved party before almost none of them have given their
:07:49. > :07:53.voters to chance to have a say on what they have done. I am asking
:07:54. > :07:57.permission from my voters, and I am moving to UKIP because I believe
:07:58. > :08:00.many of the people in my constituency have been let down by a
:08:01. > :08:04.Conservative led government, and that what UKIP is saying appeals to
:08:05. > :08:11.decent, hard-working people, who want to see real change in our
:08:12. > :08:14.country. If they do not agree, then they can vote in a by-election and
:08:15. > :08:23.have their say on who they want to be their MP. I am being open and
:08:24. > :08:26.honest, giving people a say. I am trying to do the right thing by my
:08:27. > :08:32.constituents, and whatever the risk is to me personally, I think it is
:08:33. > :08:36.the right thing to do. It is what MPs should be in politics to try and
:08:37. > :08:42.do for the people they represent. Your defection, coming after Douglas
:08:43. > :08:45.Carswell's, confirms the claim that UKIP is largely a depository for
:08:46. > :08:51.disaffected right-wing Tories like yourself, isn't it? On the contrary,
:08:52. > :08:55.the number of people I met in Doncaster yesterday was
:08:56. > :08:59.extraordinary. When I first went to Conservative conferences 20 years
:09:00. > :09:02.ago, there was some enthusiasm for politics, I remember Norman Tebbit
:09:03. > :09:06.speaking against Maastricht, people fought they could change things
:09:07. > :09:12.there was real politics. But I do not think you will see that at
:09:13. > :09:15.Birmingham this week, it is PR people, lobbyists, corporate, few
:09:16. > :09:19.ordinary members of. At Ancaster, people had saved up for months just
:09:20. > :09:24.to get the rail ticket to Doncaster. People who believe in UKIP, who
:09:25. > :09:31.believe in Nigel Farage, who believe in the team, as agents of change,
:09:32. > :09:38.who can actually deal with a political class at Westminster which
:09:39. > :09:41.has let able down. We want proper reform to the political system,
:09:42. > :09:48.which David Cameron promises but does not deliver. Final question -
:09:49. > :09:51.after the next election, the Prime Minister is going to be either David
:09:52. > :09:57.Cameron or Ed Miliband, that is the choice, one or the other - who would
:09:58. > :10:01.you prefer? Well, what we would prefer is to get the most UKIP
:10:02. > :10:08.policies implemented. We want a first rate we want to deal with
:10:09. > :10:13.immigration. I asked about who you wanted to be Prime Minister. We will
:10:14. > :10:18.look at the circumstances. We need as many UKIP MPs as possible, to
:10:19. > :10:31.restore trust in politics. If people vote UKIP, they will get UKIP. How
:10:32. > :10:36.serious is this? I think it is very serious. It is the old Tory disease,
:10:37. > :10:40.destroyed John Major, and it has been bubbling away again. It is
:10:41. > :10:44.beginning to feel like the worst days of Labour in the early nineteen
:10:45. > :10:50.eighties. It matters, because people care passionately. It is nothing
:10:51. > :10:55.like Labour in the early 1980s, it is bad, but it is nothing like that.
:10:56. > :10:59.There are these very strong strands. People like David Davis
:11:00. > :11:02.writing a large piece in the Daily Mail attacking the leader on the
:11:03. > :11:05.first day of the conference. That is the kind of thing that Labour used
:11:06. > :11:11.to do. That is what David Davis does all the time! But this is authentic
:11:12. > :11:17.in the sense that there is a real, genuine dispute about Europe. Some
:11:18. > :11:20.of us were not around in the 19 0s, but I imagine it is pretty bad.
:11:21. > :11:23.There is the short-term problem of the by-election they might lose the
:11:24. > :11:27.media problem of the general election which they cannot win if
:11:28. > :11:30.UKIP remain anywhere near their current level of support. But in
:11:31. > :11:35.many ways the longer term question is the most pressing, which is, does
:11:36. > :11:38.it make sense for the Conservative Party to remain one party, or would
:11:39. > :11:44.it not be better for the hard-core of 20-30 intransigent Eurosceptics
:11:45. > :11:49.to essentially join UKIP or form their own party? At least the
:11:50. > :11:53.Conservatives would become more internally manageable. And probably
:11:54. > :12:00.lose the next election. Probably, yes. That is what you are advising
:12:01. > :12:05.them? If the reward is to have a coherent party in 15 years' time. It
:12:06. > :12:10.is just as well you are a columnist, not a party strategist. I
:12:11. > :12:15.was an anorak in the 1980s, who watched the Labour conference on the
:12:16. > :12:20.TV. Were you wearing your anorak? Of course I was, that is how sad I am.
:12:21. > :12:24.But once again the crisis from UKIP has forced the Prime Minister to
:12:25. > :12:29.step in an even more Eurosceptic direction. Said on television what
:12:30. > :12:34.he was trying not to say, which is that if he does not get his way in
:12:35. > :12:38.the European negotiations, he will recommend to the British people that
:12:39. > :12:42.we should go. He began by saying, as I have always said, and when they
:12:43. > :12:46.say that, you know they are saying something new. He basically said,
:12:47. > :12:52.Britain should not stay if it is not in Britain's interests. I think this
:12:53. > :12:59.is big stakes for both the Tories and four UKIP. The Tories are able
:13:00. > :13:02.to write off Clacton. Rochester is number 271 on the UKIP friendly
:13:03. > :13:07.list. If the Tories win it, big moment for them. If UKIP lose it,
:13:08. > :13:19.this strategy of various will be facing a bit of a setback.
:13:20. > :13:22.To what extent are Mark Reckless's views shared by Conservative
:13:23. > :13:27.The Sunday Politics commissioned an exclusive poll of Conservative
:13:28. > :13:31.Pollsters ComRes spoke to over ,000 councillors -
:13:32. > :13:34.that's almost an eighth of their council base - and Eleanor Garnier
:13:35. > :13:47.There is not a single party conference at the seaside this year,
:13:48. > :13:51.and Sunday Politics could not get through them all without a trip to
:13:52. > :13:55.the coast. So here we are on the shore in Sussex. There are plenty of
:13:56. > :14:00.Conservative councillors here, and Tory MPs as well, but one challenge
:14:01. > :14:06.they all face is UKIP, who have got their sights on coastal towns.
:14:07. > :14:10.Places like Worthing East and surer and, with high numbers of
:14:11. > :14:15.pensioners, providing rich pickings for UKIP. In West Sussex, the Tories
:14:16. > :14:22.run the county council, but UKIP are the official opposition, with ten
:14:23. > :14:26.councillors. We cannot lose any more ground to UKIP. If we lose any more
:14:27. > :14:30.ground, if you look at the way it has swung from us to them, it is
:14:31. > :14:34.getting near to being the middle point, where we might start losing
:14:35. > :14:43.seats which we have always regarded as safe seats. So, it has got to be
:14:44. > :14:46.stemmed, it cannot go any further. Our exclusive survey looked at the
:14:47. > :14:51.policy areas where the Conservatives are vulnerable to UKIP. If an EU
:14:52. > :14:58.Referendum Bill is called tomorrow, 45% say they would vote to leave,
:14:59. > :15:10.39% would stay in. Asked about immigration...
:15:11. > :15:18.It was those issues, Europe and immigration, that Mark Reckless said
:15:19. > :15:22.were the head of his decision. I promised to cut immigration while
:15:23. > :15:28.treating people fairly and humanely. I cannot keep that promise as a
:15:29. > :15:32.Conservative, I can keep it as UKIP. When asked if Conservative
:15:33. > :15:37.councillors would like an electoral pact with UKIP in the run-up to the
:15:38. > :15:43.general election, one third said they support the idea. 63% are
:15:44. > :15:48.opposed and 7% don't know. Conservative councillors who left
:15:49. > :15:55.the party to join UKIP say it wasn't easy. I left because basically the
:15:56. > :16:00.Conservatives left me. I saw it as a difficult decision to change, but
:16:01. > :16:10.what I was seeing with UKIP was freed. Me being able to speak for my
:16:11. > :16:14.residents. Back to our survey and on climate change 49% said it was
:16:15. > :16:22.happening, but that humans are not to blame. Our survey showed that 60%
:16:23. > :16:27.think David Cameron was wrong to pursue legalising gay marriage, with
:16:28. > :16:32.31% saying it was the right thing to do and 9% not sure. In Worthing
:16:33. > :16:38.councillors said gay marriage was divisive. That has really been an
:16:39. > :16:46.issue here, it might have damaged the party slightly, and I think in a
:16:47. > :16:51.way by setting a rule like that it is a very religious thing and it is
:16:52. > :16:57.almost trying to play God to make that decision. But some of the
:16:58. > :17:02.party's toughest decisions have been over the economy. 56% in our survey
:17:03. > :17:08.thought the spending cuts the Government has so far announced have
:17:09. > :17:14.not gone far enough. 6% were not sure. They are prepared for
:17:15. > :17:18.difficult decisions, but local activists say the party's voice must
:17:19. > :17:24.be clearer. I think the message has to be more forceful, it has to be
:17:25. > :17:30.specially targeted to the ex-Conservative voters who now vote
:17:31. > :17:34.UKIP, especially in this area, the vast majority of UKIP people are
:17:35. > :17:38.disillusioned Conservatives. The message has to be loud and strong,
:17:39. > :17:43.come back and we are the party to give you what you want. With just
:17:44. > :17:48.eight months until the general election, the pressure is on and
:17:49. > :17:54.local Conservatives are searching for clues to help their party stem
:17:55. > :18:00.the flow of defections. Joining me now is William Hague, the former
:18:01. > :18:04.Foreign Secretary and the Leader of the House of Commons.
:18:05. > :18:06.Tories like Mark Reckless are defecting to UKIP because they don't
:18:07. > :18:11.Tories like Mark Reckless are trust the party leadership to
:18:12. > :18:15.deliver on Europe, do they? They believe people like you and David
:18:16. > :18:22.Cameron will campaign to stay in and they are right. They said before
:18:23. > :18:26.they defected that people should vote Conservative to get a
:18:27. > :18:33.referendum on Europe, and that is right of course. The only way to get
:18:34. > :18:38.a referendum is to do that and this is the point, the people should
:18:39. > :18:41.decide. However a future government decides it will campaign, it should
:18:42. > :18:47.be the people of the country who decide. Can you say to our viewers
:18:48. > :18:51.this morning that is not enough powers are repatriated back to
:18:52. > :18:57.Britain, you would want to come out, can you say that? Our objective
:18:58. > :19:02.is to get those powers and stay in. The answer to the question is I
:19:03. > :19:08.won't be deciding, David Cameron won't be deciding, you the voters
:19:09. > :19:14.will be deciding. But you have to give us your view. If you don't get
:19:15. > :19:19.enough powers back, would you vote to come out and recommended? Our
:19:20. > :19:24.objective is to get those powers and be able to stay in. You just get
:19:25. > :19:29.endless speculation years in advance. I will decide at the time
:19:30. > :19:34.how I will vote. Surely that is the rational position for everyone to
:19:35. > :19:39.take but I want a referendum to take place. I understand that. As you
:19:40. > :19:44.pointed out to Mark Reckless just now, unless there is a Conservative
:19:45. > :19:52.government, people won't have that choice. Under a Labour government
:19:53. > :19:56.they will not get a choice at all. Our survey of Tory councillors shows
:19:57. > :20:04.that almost 50% would vote to leave the EU in a referendum. I think it
:20:05. > :20:08.showed, wasn't it 45, and 39%, but again, I'm pretty sure they will
:20:09. > :20:14.decide at the time. They will want to see what a future government
:20:15. > :20:19.achieves in a renegotiation before they decide what to vote in a
:20:20. > :20:22.referendum. Unless David Cameron is Prime Minister and there is a
:20:23. > :20:31.Conservative government, there will not be a renegotiation. That is a
:20:32. > :20:35.point you have made four times. I think they have got it. Your Cabinet
:20:36. > :20:38.colleague says we should not be scared of quitting the EU, but you
:20:39. > :20:43.went native in the Foreign Office, didn't you? You used to be a
:20:44. > :20:50.Eurosceptic, you are now the Foreign Office line man. No, I don't think
:20:51. > :20:54.so! We brought back the first reduced European budget ever in
:20:55. > :21:01.history. Even Margaret Thatcher .. Leaving the EU scares you, doesn't
:21:02. > :21:05.it? Not much scares me after 26 years in politics but we want to do
:21:06. > :21:14.the best thing for the country. Where we scared when we got us out
:21:15. > :21:18.of liability for Eurozone bailouts? We were not scared of anybody.
:21:19. > :21:23.People said we couldn't achieve things but we negotiated these
:21:24. > :21:31.things. We can do that with a wider negotiation in Europe. Mr Reckless
:21:32. > :21:36.says he cannot keep the Conservative promise to tackle immigration. You
:21:37. > :21:51.have failed to keep your promise to keep net immigration down. You
:21:52. > :22:06.promised to cut it below 100,00 , you failed. It is over 200,000
:22:07. > :22:15.people. We have cut it from 250 000 in 2005, the last figures were
:22:16. > :22:21.240,000. I think we can file that under F four failed. It includes
:22:22. > :22:29.students, we want them in the country. You knew that when you made
:22:30. > :22:34.the promise. But has it come down? Yes, it has. Have we stopped
:22:35. > :22:38.the promise. But has it come down? coming here because of our benefit
:22:39. > :22:43.system? Yes. None of that happened under Labour. If Mark Reckless had
:22:44. > :22:47.his way, it would be more likely we would have a Labour government. They
:22:48. > :22:53.have an open door policy on immigration. You are not just losing
:22:54. > :23:00.MPs to UKIP, you are losing voters. Polling by Michael Ashcroft shows
:23:01. > :23:03.that 20% of people who voted Tory in 2010 have abandoned youth and three
:23:04. > :23:09.quarters of them are voting UKIP now. We will see in the general
:23:10. > :23:15.election. Politics is very fluid in this country and we shouldn't deny
:23:16. > :23:19.that in any way but UKIP thought they were going to win the
:23:20. > :23:24.by-election in Newark, we had a thumping Conservative victory, and I
:23:25. > :23:29.think opinion polls are snapshots of opinion now. They are not forecast
:23:30. > :23:34.of the general election and we will be doing everything we can to get
:23:35. > :23:37.our message across. Today we are announcing 3 million more
:23:38. > :23:41.apprenticeships in the next Parliament. I think this is what
:23:42. > :23:50.people will be voting on, rather than who has defected. Your activist
:23:51. > :23:55.base once parked with UKIP. Our survey shows a third of Tory
:23:56. > :24:02.councillors would like a formal pact with UKIP. Why not? It shows two
:24:03. > :24:10.thirds are against it. No, it shows one third want it. I read the
:24:11. > :24:16.figures, it showed 67% don't want it. We are not going to make a pact
:24:17. > :24:24.with other parties, and they don't work in the British electoral system
:24:25. > :24:28.even if they were desirable. You are sharing the Cabinet committee on
:24:29. > :24:32.English votes for English laws. Is further devolution for Scotland
:24:33. > :24:36.conditional on progress towards English devolution? No, the
:24:37. > :24:41.commitment to Scotland is unconditional. We will meet the
:24:42. > :24:45.commitments to Scotland but we believe, we the Conservatives
:24:46. > :24:48.believe, that in tandem with that we have to resolve these questions
:24:49. > :24:54.about fairness to the rest of the UK as well. That will depend on other
:24:55. > :24:59.parties or the general election result. Are you committed to the
:25:00. > :25:04.Gordon Brown timetable? Yes, absolutely. So you are committed to
:25:05. > :25:09.producing draft legislation by Burns night, that is at the end of
:25:10. > :25:16.January. Will you produce proposals for English votes on English laws by
:25:17. > :25:22.then? We will, but whether they are agreed across the parties will
:25:23. > :25:29.depend on the other parties. There was no sign that they were agreeable
:25:30. > :25:34.at the Labour conference. We will produce our ideas on the same
:25:35. > :25:37.timetable as the timetable for Scottish devolution. You will
:25:38. > :25:43.therefore bring forward proposals for English votes for English laws
:25:44. > :25:48.by the end of January? Yes. And will you attempt to get them on the
:25:49. > :25:52.statute book before the election? The commitment in Scotland is to
:25:53. > :25:57.legislate after the election. You will publish a bill beforehand? We
:25:58. > :26:03.will publish proposals beforehand. I don't exclude doing something before
:26:04. > :26:07.the election, but the Scottish timetable is to legislate for the
:26:08. > :26:12.further devolution after the general election, whoever wins the election.
:26:13. > :26:20.Have you given thought as to what English votes for English laws would
:26:21. > :26:24.mean? I have thought a lot of it over 15 years. I am not going to
:26:25. > :26:29.prejudge what the outcome will be, but it does mean in essence that
:26:30. > :26:35.when decisions are taken, decisions that only affect England or only
:26:36. > :26:39.England and Wales, then only the MPs from England and Wales should be
:26:40. > :26:43.making those decisions. You can achieve that in many different
:26:44. > :26:50.ways. Is that it for English devolution, is that what it amounts
:26:51. > :26:53.to? That is devolution to England if you like, but within England there
:26:54. > :26:59.is a lot of other devolution going on and we might well want to extend
:27:00. > :27:03.that further. We have given more freedom to local authorities, there
:27:04. > :27:07.is a lot of scope to do more of that, but that in itself is not the
:27:08. > :27:17.answer to the problem of what happens at Westminster. You haven't
:27:18. > :27:21.just given Scotland more devolution or planned to do it, you have also
:27:22. > :27:26.enshrined the Barnett formula and that seems to be in perpetuity. It
:27:27. > :27:31.is widely regarded as being unfair to Wales and many of the poorer
:27:32. > :27:35.English regions. Why do you perpetuate it? It will become less
:27:36. > :27:44.relevant overtime if more tax-raising powers... It goes all
:27:45. > :27:48.the way back to the 1970s, we made a commitment on that, we will keep our
:27:49. > :27:55.commitments to Scotland as more -- but as more tax-raising powers
:27:56. > :28:00.devolved, the Barnett formula is less significant. If you transfer ?5
:28:01. > :28:06.billion of tax-raising powers to Scotland, 5 billion comes off the
:28:07. > :28:12.Barnett formula? It will be a lot more complicated than that, but yes,
:28:13. > :28:16.as their own decisions about taxation are made, the grand from
:28:17. > :28:19.Westminster will go down. And you can guarantee that if there is a
:28:20. > :28:25.majority Conservative government, there will be English votes for
:28:26. > :28:29.English laws after the election Yes, I stress again that there are
:28:30. > :28:33.different ways of doing it but if there is no cross-party agreement on
:28:34. > :28:38.that, the Conservatives will produce our proposals and campaign for them
:28:39. > :28:40.in the general election. Don't go away because I want to move on to
:28:41. > :28:46.some other matters. Now to the fight against so-called
:28:47. > :28:48.Islamic State terrorists. Yesterday, RAF Tornado jets carried
:28:49. > :28:51.out their first flights over Iraq since MPs gave their approval for
:28:52. > :29:00.air-strikes against the militants. When you face a situation with
:29:01. > :29:05.psychobabble -- psychopathic killers who have already brutally beheaded
:29:06. > :29:09.one of our own citizens, who have already launched and tried to
:29:10. > :29:14.execute plots in our own country to maim innocent people, we have a
:29:15. > :29:18.choice - we can either stand back from this and say it is too
:29:19. > :29:23.difficult, let's let someone else try to keep our country safe, or we
:29:24. > :29:27.take the correct decision to have a full, comprehensive strategy but
:29:28. > :29:29.let's be prepared to play our role to make sure these people cannot do
:29:30. > :29:33.not trust harm. And William Hague is still with me -
:29:34. > :29:47.until July he was, of course, Why have only six Tornado jets being
:29:48. > :29:51.mobilised? Do not assume that is all that will be taking part in this
:29:52. > :29:56.operation. That is all that has been announced and I do not think we
:29:57. > :30:02.should speculate. Even the Danes are sending more fighter jets. There is
:30:03. > :30:06.no restriction in the House of Commons resolution passed on Friday
:30:07. > :30:11.on what we can do. So why so little? Do not underestimate what
:30:12. > :30:15.our Tornados can do. They have some unique capabilities, capabilities
:30:16. > :30:20.which have been specifically asked for by our allies. When you are on
:30:21. > :30:23.the wrong end of six Tornados, it will not feel like a small effort.
:30:24. > :30:29.But there will be other things which can add to that effort. We are
:30:30. > :30:33.joining in a month after the operation started, we are late, we
:30:34. > :30:38.are behind America, France, Australia, Jordan, the UAE, Bahrain,
:30:39. > :30:43.Qatar, one hand tied behind our backs cause of the rule about not
:30:44. > :30:48.attacking Syria - why is the British government leading from behind?
:30:49. > :30:51.First of all, we are a democratic country, and you know all about
:30:52. > :30:55.Parliamentary approval. You could have recalled parliament. We have
:30:56. > :31:00.done that, with a political consensus. Other European countries
:31:01. > :31:05.also took the decision on Friday to send their military assets. Our
:31:06. > :31:09.allies are absolutely content with that, and Britain will play an
:31:10. > :31:13.important role, along with many other nations, including Arab
:31:14. > :31:20.nations. General Sir David Richards Sheriff, who just steps down as the
:31:21. > :31:24.Nato Deputy Supreme Commander, he condemns the spineless lack of
:31:25. > :31:30.leadership and the absence of any credible strategy. It is
:31:31. > :31:37.embarrassing,isn't it? Of course, they turn into armchair generals. We
:31:38. > :31:41.are playing an important role, we are a democratic country. Your
:31:42. > :31:46.viewers will remember, we had a vote last year on military action in
:31:47. > :31:50.Syria and we were defeated in the House of Commons, a bad moment for
:31:51. > :31:54.our foreign policy. We have taken care to bring this forward when we
:31:55. > :32:02.can win a vote in the House of Commons, and that is how we will
:32:03. > :32:06.proceed. The air Chief Marshal until recently in charge of the RAF, he
:32:07. > :32:13.says, it makes no sense to bomb Iraq but not Syria. He calls the decision
:32:14. > :32:17.ludicrous. Of course, it DOES make sense to bomb Iraq, because the
:32:18. > :32:24.Iraqi government has asked for our assistance. This came up a lot in
:32:25. > :32:30.the debate on Friday, and the Prime Minister explained, similar to what
:32:31. > :32:35.I have just been saying, that there is not a political consensus about
:32:36. > :32:39.Syria in the House of Commons. When we did it last year, we were
:32:40. > :32:42.defeated, and it was described by all commentators as a huge blow to
:32:43. > :32:47.the government and to our foreign policy. So, we will bring forward
:32:48. > :32:52.proposals when there is a majority in this country to do so in the
:32:53. > :32:59.House of Commons. Professor Michael Clarke, one of the world top experts
:33:00. > :33:03.on military strategy and history, he says there are very few important IS
:33:04. > :33:07.targets in northern Iraq, that they are all in Syria, and we are
:33:08. > :33:11.limiting ourselves to the periphery of the campaign. First of all, just
:33:12. > :33:15.because you are not doing everything does not mean you should not do
:33:16. > :33:19.something. Secondly, the United States and other countries are
:33:20. > :33:24.engaged in the action against targets in Syria. This is a
:33:25. > :33:29.coalition effort, with people doing different things. Thirdly, if we
:33:30. > :33:32.were to put their proposal to the House of Commons tomorrow, and it
:33:33. > :33:38.was defeated, we would not have achieved a great deal. You do not
:33:39. > :33:41.know it would have been defeated. The Labour Party has given no
:33:42. > :33:47.indication they would have supported that. So, you are hostage to the
:33:48. > :33:50.Labour Party? We have to win a democratic vote in the House of
:33:51. > :33:55.Commons, and the Labour Party is a very large part of the House of
:33:56. > :34:01.Commons. You are asking us to pursue a policy which at the moment could
:34:02. > :34:04.be defeated in Parliament. Is it not embarrassing to be on the wrong side
:34:05. > :34:08.of so many of these military experts? Why should we trust the
:34:09. > :34:16.judgment of here today, gone tomorrow, politicians? We have the
:34:17. > :34:19.military experts with us now. We have a national security council, we
:34:20. > :34:23.do not have sofa government, unlike the last government. The national
:34:24. > :34:29.security council is chaired by the Prime Minister. Alongside the Chief
:34:30. > :34:37.of Defence Staff and the heads of the intelligence agencies. And we
:34:38. > :34:42.take decisions together with the people who have the information
:34:43. > :34:46.now. So, you will know what British and American intelligence says about
:34:47. > :34:49.Syria. The Prime Minister has said there is a danger that the
:34:50. > :34:53.British-born jihadists will come back and attack us. But the
:34:54. > :34:58.intelligence reports which you will have seen are clear - Al-Qaeda and
:34:59. > :35:04.its associates are selecting, indoctrinating and training
:35:05. > :35:08.jihadists in Syria, not Iraq. Does that not make the Syrian exclusion
:35:09. > :35:15.even more ludicrous? I cannot comment on intelligence. Is the
:35:16. > :35:22.situation in Syria I direct threat to this country? Yes, it is. Have we
:35:23. > :35:25.excluded action? No, we haven't Could you come back to the House?
:35:26. > :35:30.The Prime Minister said, it was in the motion put to the House of
:35:31. > :35:35.Commons, that if we want to take action in Syria, we will come back
:35:36. > :35:39.to the House of Commons. But we have not taken any decision about that
:35:40. > :35:44.and we would not do so if we thought we were going to be defeated again.
:35:45. > :35:51.The government supports US strikes on Syria, show you must relieve they
:35:52. > :35:54.are legal. Either way the legal basis differs from one country to
:35:55. > :36:01.another, according to their reading of international law. But you have
:36:02. > :36:04.supported it. We do believe that they and Arab countries are taking
:36:05. > :36:12.action legally and we support their action. But I understand your
:36:13. > :36:18.legitimate questions. But it comes back to your basic question, why in
:36:19. > :36:23.Iraq and not Syria. Nonetheless it is important to take action in
:36:24. > :36:28.Iraq. We are also engaged in Syria in building up the political
:36:29. > :36:32.strength of the more moderate opposition and in trying to bring
:36:33. > :36:40.about a peace agreement, and we do not exclude action in Syria in the
:36:41. > :36:44.future. If we propose doing something, then we ask for the
:36:45. > :36:49.specific legal advice. Why would you not ask for the legal advice
:36:50. > :36:53.anyway? Because you have to be sure of the legal advice at the time and
:36:54. > :36:59.also we do not comment on the advice given to us by the Law officers Mr
:37:00. > :37:04.Blair ended up publishing his. That was because there was a huge legal
:37:05. > :37:08.dispute. So you have not had legal advice yet that Britain attacking
:37:09. > :37:11.Syria would be legal? The legal situation is unlikely to be the
:37:12. > :37:17.barrier in this case, let me put it that way. Within international law,
:37:18. > :37:24.you can act in the event of extreme humanitarian distress and elective
:37:25. > :37:28.self-defence, so one can imagine strong legal justification, but of
:37:29. > :37:30.course, we will take the legal advice at the time.
:37:31. > :37:35.watching The Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who
:37:36. > :37:44.Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes, The Week Ahead.
:37:45. > :37:55.We go to the best school in the world.
:37:56. > :37:58.A new film by a Bristol graduate lampoons the life of toffs
:37:59. > :38:03.but might it soon be harder for them to get ahead in the jobs market
:38:04. > :38:07.Labour wants a crackdown on class in the workplace.
:38:08. > :38:10.Joining me today are two men I happened to bump into
:38:11. > :38:12.who then proceeded to tell le their life stories.
:38:13. > :38:16.The sort of thing that happdns all the time to Ed Miliband,
:38:17. > :38:19.as he told us at the party last week.
:38:20. > :38:21.Like Gareth, who is high up in a software company.
:38:22. > :38:23.He has got a five`year`old daughter
:38:24. > :38:27.and is earning a decent wagd but cannot afford to buy a home
:38:28. > :38:31.I mentioned earlier on that I spent a couple days in a hospital
:38:32. > :38:38.While I was there, I met an amazing man in his 80s,
:38:39. > :38:42.I met someone called Elizabdth the other day.
:38:43. > :38:47.Earlier on, I mentioned Gareth who works at
:38:48. > :38:50.a software company, who is worried about his daughter and the future.
:38:51. > :38:56.Yes, Ed Miliband talking about Gareth and Elizabeth
:38:57. > :39:02.He did his entire speech from memory and then left ott some
:39:03. > :39:05.Let's talk about that with Darren Jones,
:39:06. > :39:11.and Conservative councillor Mark Weston.
:39:12. > :39:14.And also here, I am pleased to say, is Chris Scott, head of acthng at
:39:15. > :39:21.How hard is it to memorise an 80 minute speech?
:39:22. > :39:31.And I think also the pressure that you're trying to remember those
:39:32. > :39:35.words, with all those peopld watching you, with the confdrence
:39:36. > :39:39.going on, with the television cameras recording every hiccup,
:39:40. > :39:44.every slight pause you have, I think it is a great stress and strain to
:39:45. > :39:53.I suppose there is a sort of feeling that if you can speak
:39:54. > :39:57.off`the`cuff for so long yot really are passionate about it.
:39:58. > :40:03.It does mean that you can gdt a lot of eye contact, which is good.
:40:04. > :40:08.If you can actually talk to people, I think that is impressive.
:40:09. > :40:14.So I think rather than being anchored behind a podium he wants to
:40:15. > :40:18.seem fresh, spontaneous, purposeful, passionate.
:40:19. > :40:24.I agree with everything that has just been said.
:40:25. > :40:26.I mean, you guys jibe Ed and that editing
:40:27. > :40:30.didn't show one of the policies that he was talking about in his speech.
:40:31. > :40:32.We were more interested in the characters he mentioned.
:40:33. > :40:34.You should be interested in the policies, David...
:40:35. > :40:36.That is up to him, then, to get that message across.
:40:37. > :40:39.Well, he did but you didn't put it in the film.
:40:40. > :40:41.I don't think he really did, if we are honest.
:40:42. > :40:45.I think he did a whole speech to the audience there, rather than
:40:46. > :40:49.And what he tried to do was create this artificial sense that he is
:40:50. > :40:52.communicating with people bx listing all the people that he had let.
:40:53. > :40:56.I hope in the last few months he has met more than those thrde.
:40:57. > :40:59.Well, Mark, you told me you turned it off after half an hour
:41:00. > :41:01.so I'm not sure you can say that you saw the speech.
:41:02. > :41:05.I did, and the reason I did is because it was that dull.
:41:06. > :41:08.I have read the transcript `nd I watched the first half an hour but I
:41:09. > :41:12.am afraid after that it failed to engage, and I am a political geek.
:41:13. > :41:14.Did it remind you of Iain Duncan Smith?
:41:15. > :41:16.Oh, it is right up there with his disastrous speeches!
:41:17. > :41:19.Mark is a very good Conserv`tive party staffer,
:41:20. > :41:25.I was there as well and as H was filing out of the hall I asked those
:41:26. > :41:28.people in the red, the stew`rds I said, "Marks out of ten?"
:41:29. > :41:31.And there was one woman who said 9.5 but for most it was six.
:41:32. > :41:35.When Ed was talking about those people, he was trying to
:41:36. > :41:39.put in context the policies he wants to bring to this country to help
:41:40. > :41:43.You might make jokes about him or the delivery the way you have
:41:44. > :41:46.edited that, but when he was talking about the NHS, jobs and
:41:47. > :41:48.apprenticeships, when he was talking about housing, these are thd
:41:49. > :41:52.He wasn't talking about the deficit or immigr`tion.
:41:53. > :41:55.That's the danger if you don't autocue or teldprompt
:41:56. > :41:59.And what about your Rochdald MP I forget the chap's name.
:42:00. > :42:01.Mark, here, trying to conduct the interview
:42:02. > :42:05.Ed has spoken about the mistake that he has owned up to in the speech,
:42:06. > :42:08.it doesn't mean he doesn't worry about the deficit and if yot look
:42:09. > :42:11.at the Ed Balls speech, the Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was
:42:12. > :42:14.very clear that we wanted to balance the books by the end
:42:15. > :42:17.We are going to make that a legal responsibility and `ll the
:42:18. > :42:20.policies are fully costed, with no increase in debt or spending
:42:21. > :42:23.As a performer, what did yot think about this technique of dropping
:42:24. > :42:31.What we want to know are sole of the macro aspects of the politics.
:42:32. > :42:34.We also want to see some of the micro aspects of the policies
:42:35. > :42:42.Those are good and seeing the people...
:42:43. > :42:45.But is he doing it for the conference centre or is he
:42:46. > :42:52.Is it a precis of the whole week at Manchester?
:42:53. > :42:56.It is quite a tall order for one single speech.
:42:57. > :43:02.Content`wise, he has absolutely set the agenda, has he not, on cost
:43:03. > :43:06.of living in a way that Mr Cameron simply hasn't, even
:43:07. > :43:10.though I am sure he will deliver a very polished speech from attocue?
:43:11. > :43:13.No, I think he has set out ` vision but
:43:14. > :43:17.it is their eighth in three years.
:43:18. > :43:20.He seems to keep changing the vision and plan every thme
:43:21. > :43:24.It was supposed to have been fully costed but it is not.
:43:25. > :43:27.There are ?20 billion worth of commitments but only ?2 billion
:43:28. > :43:35.Thank you so much for coming in and giving us your acting thps.
:43:36. > :43:45.Now, Labour has announced plans to tackle class discrimination
:43:46. > :43:50.The party wants the social background of candidates to be taken
:43:51. > :43:53.into account by public sector employers.
:43:54. > :43:58.We are at the top universitx in the world.
:43:59. > :44:05.But there are no more than ten in The Riot Club.
:44:06. > :44:08.It is an image the Tories are desperate to ditch
:44:09. > :44:12.but in cinemas everywhere rhght now, The Riot Club portrays a prhvileged
:44:13. > :44:16.few as champagne`swilling btllyboys who see themselves
:44:17. > :44:21.as masters of the universe.
:44:22. > :44:26.And there's been lots of talk about the importance of class
:44:27. > :44:30.Here in East Bristol, the chosen Conservative candidate is
:44:31. > :44:35.a privately educated expert in Russian art, Theodora Cl`rk.
:44:36. > :44:39.She happens to be the niece of the wife of the North East Somerset
:44:40. > :44:44.MP Jacob Rees Mogg and famotsly his sister, Anunciata, ran for ` nearby
:44:45. > :44:50.But all three have been chosen through the party's
:44:51. > :44:55.own rigourous selection process so why should any of this m`tter?
:44:56. > :44:58.I don't know that people outside the Labour Party really think
:44:59. > :45:04.I think the electorate in North East Somerset thinks
:45:05. > :45:07.about individuals, people as they are and as they meet them.
:45:08. > :45:13.I am very fortunate in that my family is deeply rooted
:45:14. > :45:16.there and I have met many pdople who have known members of my falily who
:45:17. > :45:20.I think being rooted in your community is much more
:45:21. > :45:24.important than these rather outdated issues of class.
:45:25. > :45:27.And it's not just the Tories who have been criticised for making
:45:28. > :45:31.This week, the Bristol Labotr councillor Fabian Beckles l`shed out
:45:32. > :45:39.at his own party for giving children of former MPs face the.
:45:40. > :45:42.There is Will Straw, fun of Jack, now standing in
:45:43. > :45:51.And Stephen Kinnock, son of Neil, running in south Wales.
:45:52. > :45:53.And finally, Emily Benn from the line of Tony and
:45:54. > :45:57.They all argue they have earned their place but opening up
:45:58. > :46:00.the top jobs to more people is one of the key seems to emerge
:46:01. > :46:06.There are ladders that can be used to climb up and get on, but they are
:46:07. > :46:12.Politics, law, journalism, business, wonderful jobs but still opdrating
:46:13. > :46:20.Three quarters of senior judges nearly half of journalists,
:46:21. > :46:26.are from private schools whhch educate just 7% of the population.
:46:27. > :46:29.Labour now wants public sector employers to monitor the social
:46:30. > :46:37.I lived at number four, the groundfloor flat.
:46:38. > :46:40.Their candidate in Bristol North West is keen for people to know he
:46:41. > :46:45.Darren Jones may sound like he has had an expensive education but in
:46:46. > :46:53.So is his accent is stopping him connecting in the working class
:46:54. > :46:57.As long as they can speak plainly to anyone,
:46:58. > :47:00.I don't like being talked down to, I don't think anyone else does.
:47:01. > :47:03.As long as they communicate well I don't think Porsche is so mtch
:47:04. > :47:13.It doesn't matter whether he's posh or whether he is
:47:14. > :47:16.It just depends on the results he gets.
:47:17. > :47:18.Just because he's got mace chinos on and a pair
:47:19. > :47:21.of boat shoes doesn't mean that he's not in touch with society.
:47:22. > :47:25.You know, the thing is guy, if he wants to be in touch with society,
:47:26. > :47:28.it doesn't matter what he looks like, it matters on what he is
:47:29. > :47:34.I looked up to him because he is upper`class but I let down
:47:35. > :47:36.on him because he is lower class. `` look down.
:47:37. > :47:38.Perhaps, then, those traditional class divhsions
:47:39. > :47:43.With Labour's new policy, knowing the place you came
:47:44. > :47:46.from could be crucial in climbing the ladder at work.
:47:47. > :48:04.Well, we are joined by Nigel Costley from the TUC.
:48:05. > :48:07.Nigel used to be the of Equality South West, which
:48:08. > :48:08.campaigned for a more equal society.
:48:09. > :48:10.Is class much of an issue these days?
:48:11. > :48:15.I forgot my class cap and mx whippet but we mustn't stereotype pdople.
:48:16. > :48:17.Trade unionists, now, represent all classes, if you like.
:48:18. > :48:21.Last week, the hospital consultants bordered
:48:22. > :48:23.by 80% to take industrial action. ``voted.
:48:24. > :48:25.They will be joining with cleaners, construction workers,
:48:26. > :48:29.So we represent a wide spectrum of people but it does remain
:48:30. > :48:35.the big divide in society, where you were born matters hugely.
:48:36. > :48:50.If you are born in South Bristol your chances
:48:51. > :48:53.of getting into higher educ`tion and a decent job, let alone politics
:48:54. > :48:56.or journalism, hugely different from if you were born in Clhfton.
:48:57. > :48:58.And the answer is we must r`ise awareness of those divisions
:48:59. > :49:01.and we have to do something about it, because it's getting worse.
:49:02. > :49:04.The top 1% is soaring away from the rest of us,
:49:05. > :49:08.Do you accept that politici`ns aren't doing enough to deal with
:49:09. > :49:11.this issue of class, which seems to be particularly British?
:49:12. > :49:14.I am not sure, if I am being utterly honest, that there is
:49:15. > :49:20.I mean, I listened to Glori`'s speech and I have to say I `m not
:49:21. > :49:24.convinced that what she is suggesting is remotely practical.
:49:25. > :49:28.I think people, and you heard, they are far more interested in how
:49:29. > :49:32.people perform and their abhlities than about their backgrounds.
:49:33. > :49:35.Can you really imagine that all of the public bodies out thdre are
:49:36. > :49:39.going to monitor your socio`economic backgrotnd?
:49:40. > :49:44.Ultimately, if we are being truthful, where you come from
:49:45. > :49:49.doesn't matter at all, it's how good you are that makes the diffdrence.
:49:50. > :49:51.The reason I am in politics is because I have done
:49:52. > :49:57.I was the first in my family to go to university.
:49:58. > :49:59.I am very proud to be running for parliament,
:50:00. > :50:03.And one of the things that fundamentally annoys there hs
:50:04. > :50:07.the lack of equality and opportunity and the right for kids in Bristol
:50:08. > :50:10.So what sort of social engineering can you do,
:50:11. > :50:14.It is just about balancing out the playing field.
:50:15. > :50:18.That was the way and for many people.
:50:19. > :50:27.A lot of people from Lawrence Weston are in see new places today
:50:28. > :50:37.But actually the issue is m`king sure that a comprehensive education
:50:38. > :50:44.I am saying that we need to do more with comprehensive
:50:45. > :50:46.schools to be able to support them to deliver that.
:50:47. > :50:50.And this is the fundamental issue about why am wanting to be the MP
:50:51. > :50:54.Have you noticed that, that it is who you know?
:50:55. > :50:57.I am sure in all parts of politics if you are born
:50:58. > :51:00.into a political family that is going to be in your life blood.
:51:01. > :51:03.I don't think we should stop people getting chances because of that
:51:04. > :51:06.But I do think that the question of inequality is getting worse.
:51:07. > :51:10.If the minimum wage had gond up at the same rate as the top FTSE
:51:11. > :51:16.It affects so much of OUR lhfe, where you were born
:51:17. > :51:20.And we do need to do somethhng about that.
:51:21. > :51:24.We don't want to divide people at 11 so that some man in the factories
:51:25. > :51:27.and typing rules as opposed to the managers and the people who are
:51:28. > :51:32.But the problem with what L`bour was suggested
:51:33. > :51:34.at the conference seems to be that your background matters mord.
:51:35. > :51:40.If you are working`class and you make a success and you have said
:51:41. > :51:49.Do your children have to be`r the brunt of that because suddenly you
:51:50. > :51:51.are doing well for yourself and living
:51:52. > :51:56.are not going to get a break because your social economic background in
:51:57. > :52:01.these topic affairs indices and some public body is sayhng that
:52:02. > :52:02.you are from a wealthy family. ``public bodies.
:52:03. > :52:04.My wife's grandfather was a coal mine.
:52:05. > :52:06.If we go far back, we can find these.
:52:07. > :52:09.I am sure we can all find our working`class roots if we look.
:52:10. > :52:13.But why do you make such a big thing of it?
:52:14. > :52:16.You often say that you are from a council house in Lawrence Weston,
:52:17. > :52:22.Where I lived isn't the reason I say that.
:52:23. > :52:24.Actually it is because that is what drives my politics.
:52:25. > :52:28.One of the things I do freqtently as the candidate is both local kids to
:52:29. > :52:35.to local businesses to understand what jobs they are in Bristol for
:52:36. > :52:38.them to aspire to and to understand how their work at school makes the
:52:39. > :52:41.to their jobs and I am glad that Mark recognises
:52:42. > :52:44.that young people today see their futures and note that they light not
:52:45. > :52:49.`` they do not know that thdy are going to get the opporttnity
:52:50. > :52:52.Did you get your break by not appearing to be workhng`class
:52:53. > :52:58.You are as posh as Jacob Riis morgue in manx ways.
:52:59. > :53:01.I don't think I am, quite frankly, and it has nothing to do with that.
:53:02. > :53:04.I was good academically in skill and thanks to Ian Labour Government
:53:05. > :53:07.I was the first in my family to go to university.
:53:08. > :53:10.So it worked for you so why can it not work for millions of others
:53:11. > :53:13.and actually isn't it, in rdality, people just getting on with it?
:53:14. > :53:15.You just need to look at the evidence, David.
:53:16. > :53:18.It is an increasing problem in this country and we have just got
:53:19. > :53:21.to take steps to do this and the point on measuring social
:53:22. > :53:24.background in professions, the Law Society does that for l`wyers
:53:25. > :53:28.You might have a situation where you go for
:53:29. > :53:31.a job and to equal candidatds, one who came from a middle`class area
:53:32. > :53:34.and the other from working`class, and the working class kid gdts it?
:53:35. > :53:36.I do not think that is what she is saying.
:53:37. > :53:40.That is exactly what she was saying stop at my law firm,
:53:41. > :53:43.we measure those backgrounds and we can make strategic ddcisions
:53:44. > :53:45.on how we can support young people to understand...
:53:46. > :53:48.So you go for the working`class kid, rather than the middle`class kid?
:53:49. > :53:50.Oh, it doesn't come to this decision about who you employee
:53:51. > :53:53.but we run a mentoring programme with kids from a local school..
:53:54. > :54:00.We are in the thick of the party conference season
:54:01. > :54:03.and the Conservatives who g`ther in Birmingham today will have been
:54:04. > :54:05.keeping a close eye on UKIP's get`together at Doncaster
:54:06. > :54:08.UKIP has already made a bre`kthrough in council elections, taking seats
:54:09. > :54:11.Now the party's hopes are phnned on Westminster.
:54:12. > :54:18.Welcome to Doncaster racecotrse wear this weekend UKIP have been
:54:19. > :54:23.No coincidence that this happens to be justified the constituency
:54:24. > :54:28.It is Labour heartland and the party are very deliberately going out to
:54:29. > :54:31.In the West Country, that means place of Lake Swhndon,
:54:32. > :54:36.Bristol, Gloucester, where they hope to pick up ports.
:54:37. > :54:39.Probably the biggest target of all is the Forest of Dean, wherd they
:54:40. > :54:42.picked up the council seats in the county council elections last year.
:54:43. > :54:49.They also did very well in this year's European elections.
:54:50. > :54:51.With me is 1 of their newly elected MEPs, Julia Reed.
:54:52. > :54:54.Let's just ask you about thd Forest of Dean.
:54:55. > :54:56.Important seat for you but xou have not got a candidate yet.
:54:57. > :54:58.No, they are going through the selection
:54:59. > :55:01.process now and our selection process is very rigorous, so they
:55:02. > :55:04.are going to ensure they have a really good candidate in place.
:55:05. > :55:07.The selection process than last time because Tim, your candidate, had to
:55:08. > :55:13.stand down and they said he had been a hypocrite over windfarms.
:55:14. > :55:15.He passed the selection process that he was
:55:16. > :55:18.But because of his involvemdnt in windfarms, and he did decide
:55:19. > :55:27.There will be lots of MEPs that have in the past fallen out
:55:28. > :55:30.with the leader are left thd party, councillors or candidates who
:55:31. > :55:40.Are you confident this time the UKIP is getting itself together
:55:41. > :55:42.and not having strange people who will fall out?
:55:43. > :55:45.I am certain that we will go on and on and do better and better
:55:46. > :55:48.Quick question about taxation, a big issue at the conference.
:55:49. > :55:52.You want to drop the top rate of tax for the wealthiest,
:55:53. > :55:55.that is going to take ?3,000,00 ,000 out of public coffers.
:55:56. > :55:57.At the moment, we have a lot of aspiration`l people
:55:58. > :56:01.in the middle classes who are trying to better themselves
:56:02. > :56:11.and they are hitting the cehling of the tax rate very, very puickly.
:56:12. > :56:14.Osborne actually did lower ht by ?2000 from the level that
:56:15. > :56:19.We intend to increase the t`x eventually for that the better
:56:20. > :56:22.off paying a bit more but that those who are trying to better thdmselves
:56:23. > :56:28.We will see more, doubtless, as we get
:56:29. > :56:34.More details to come over the next 8 months.
:56:35. > :56:37.Let's turn to our guests in the studio.
:56:38. > :56:42.There was one very good lind that Ed Miliband had
:56:43. > :56:45.at the party conference, he said the Prime minister did not lie awake
:56:46. > :56:48.at night worrying about the UK, he was awake at night worryhng
:56:49. > :56:58.I think it is a good line for that speech.
:56:59. > :57:01.David Cameron has been quitd passionate in this whole Scottish
:57:02. > :57:04.referendum debate and he thhnks about the entirety of the UK.
:57:05. > :57:07.The whole party is running scared of UKIP.
:57:08. > :57:10.And via the tail wagging thd dog, aren't they?
:57:11. > :57:14.What they are, they are a political opponent that we aim to beat
:57:15. > :57:24.No, euroscepticism, if you want I would define myself
:57:25. > :57:26.as eursceptic and I would be delighted to have
:57:27. > :57:32.You are becoming more like them because that is the way you see
:57:33. > :57:34.I think that has been a gradual devolution all along.
:57:35. > :57:40.If you look at William Hagud and the two does not 2005 c`mpaign,
:57:41. > :57:42.we have always campaigned on European issues. ``2001 `nd 005.
:57:43. > :57:45.And look how well that turned out for you.
:57:46. > :57:49.Actually, one of the things that Ed Miliband forecourt was immigration,
:57:50. > :57:51.which is obviously a great driver for a lot of the population.
:57:52. > :57:57.Immigration is a huge issue and Ed Miliband forgot about it.
:57:58. > :57:59.UKIP are absolutely going to target that like a missile.
:58:00. > :58:01.They will target immigration and low taxes.
:58:02. > :58:07.In a way, they are clever, they have got their eyes on you both
:58:08. > :58:11.I always enjoy watching Torhes squirm over the UKIP question
:58:12. > :58:14.and Mark's ward election last May was the only 1 without ` UKIP
:58:15. > :58:19.I don't know whether you were in a packed with them or not
:58:20. > :58:22.but it was interesting that you get a receipt in that situation.
:58:23. > :58:25.Let's be clear, UKIP is getting votes from people that are
:58:26. > :58:27.disenfranchised from politics and are angry about the world.
:58:28. > :58:30.What we need to be doing as the Labour Party is showhng
:58:31. > :58:33.people that we have the answers to the challenges and UKIP havd been
:58:34. > :58:37.They have been talking about a flat rate of tax that will get another...
:58:38. > :58:40.Do you think the address working class issues and worries?
:58:41. > :58:42.They announced today, at the start of the conference,
:58:43. > :58:45.a flat rate of tax, which whll give another tax cut to millionahres
:58:46. > :58:51.They want to privatise the NHS, they want to charge you to see the GP, as
:58:52. > :58:54.does my opponent in the north`west, the Tory MP Charlotte Leslid. They
:58:55. > :59:00.Now let's take a spool back through the political
:59:01. > :59:09.Ed Miliband picked a fight with one of Bristol's biggest employdrs after
:59:10. > :59:20.A spokesman for Imperial Tobacco called the tax on just
:59:21. > :59:22.and said it would put presstre on jobs and livelihoods. ``tnjust.
:59:23. > :59:30.# If there is something that you want to hear...
:59:31. > :59:33.Buskers in Bath were told to turn the music down.
:59:34. > :59:35.The Abbey complained after Dvensong had to be abandoned.
:59:36. > :59:37.Councillors are now thinking of banning the use of amplifiers.
:59:38. > :59:40.It was people power that stopped contractors painting a resident s
:59:41. > :59:53.A barricade was hastily erected and a stand`off and shoot.
:59:54. > :59:55.Why should we pay for parking in our street?
:59:56. > :59:57.We already pay road tax, what is this for?
:59:58. > :59:59.The local authority voted will be back.
:00:00. > :00:01.And there was fresh hope for the criminal Tropicana
:00:02. > :00:04.North Somerset Council, which had wanted to knock it down,
:00:05. > :00:08.has now sign off ?750,000 to bring it back to life.
:00:09. > :00:19.Thank you to Mark Weston and Darren Jones for coming in and Inshde Out
:00:20. > :00:22.West will be looking again `t the topic of inequalities in Brhstol in
:00:23. > :00:29.From now, I will say goodbyd and invite you to watch the
:00:30. > :00:37.Let's return to Andrew, who this week is that the Conservative
:00:38. > :00:55.My thanks to you both. Andrew, back to you.
:00:56. > :01:03.Here we are back in Birmingham with the Conservatives. The Tories
:01:04. > :01:09.thought all they had to do was come here, have a rally, a jamboree, and
:01:10. > :01:14.off they go to the races, or in their case the general election Two
:01:15. > :01:20.races later it hasn't quite worked out like that. Let's look at the
:01:21. > :01:27.state of this conference as it gets under way. On our panel we are
:01:28. > :01:31.joined by David Davis. You wrote an article in the Mail on Sunday this
:01:32. > :01:38.morning which was an Exocet at the heart of David Cameron's modernising
:01:39. > :01:44.strategy. It was designed to act as a lever. It was designed to cause
:01:45. > :01:48.trouble. No, we are in the running for the next general election. One
:01:49. > :01:53.of the characteristics of having a five year fixed term Parliaments is
:01:54. > :01:57.that the last year is about campaigning. It is important we beat
:01:58. > :02:03.Miliband, he would be a disastrous Prime Minister. You think the whole
:02:04. > :02:12.modernising strategy was a wrong turn, that is what the article said.
:02:13. > :02:31.Yes. Has that opened the door to UKIP? It has left a lot of people
:02:32. > :02:34.disillusioned with politics. What do you do to get it right? Who was
:02:35. > :03:09.listening to you? Frankly we need to take a more
:03:10. > :03:13.robust series of policies. How many more UKIP defections will there be?
:03:14. > :03:22.I do not think there will be any more. I would be very surprised I
:03:23. > :03:26.know Nigel Farage has a brilliant sense of timing, but I do not think
:03:27. > :03:32.he has got the resources to do that, namely, another Tory MP. So it could
:03:33. > :03:38.be another Labour one, maybe? I think an awful lot will hinge on
:03:39. > :03:43.what happens in Rochester. Because that is not a slam dunk. Clack and
:03:44. > :03:55.unfortunately looks like it will be a walkover for them. But Rochester
:03:56. > :04:01.is a different scene. And so, there could be a kind of Newark situation.
:04:02. > :04:06.When I campaigned in Newark, two labour families I spoke to said they
:04:07. > :04:12.would vote Tory to keep UKIP out. How bad was the Labour conference
:04:13. > :04:16.last week? One politician said after he had a really bad performance that
:04:17. > :04:22.his television performance was suboptimal. I think that would be a
:04:23. > :04:25.good way of describing Ed Miliband's speech. The problem for
:04:26. > :04:29.Ed Miliband in memorising speeches is that we are not auditioning for a
:04:30. > :04:34.new lines Olivier, we're rehearsing for Prime Minister. He failed the
:04:35. > :04:37.Laurence Olivier test, and therefore failed the Prime Minister test. I
:04:38. > :04:41.think the real problem for him was forgetting to mention the deficit.
:04:42. > :04:47.He spoke from the heart about issues which she really cares about, the
:04:48. > :04:51.NHS, the rupture between wages and inflation, and forgot the deficit.
:04:52. > :04:53.Those issues are important, but if you are not addressing things
:04:54. > :04:56.Those issues are important, but if the deficit, then people are really
:04:57. > :05:00.not going to be listening to your messages on the areas that matter.
:05:01. > :05:06.not going to be listening to your Was it bad? Yes, suboptimal, I am
:05:07. > :05:09.afraid. I hope that this ends the nonsense of leaders wasting their
:05:10. > :05:14.time learning speeches off by heart. You could learn a Shakespeare
:05:15. > :05:18.play in the time it takes to learn 70 minutes of a leader's speech I
:05:19. > :05:22.think we should just go back to sensible reading what you have
:05:23. > :05:26.written. You can then alter it just beforehand. A lot of things were
:05:27. > :05:31.changing, which is not surprising, but he did not have time to learn
:05:32. > :05:35.it. It is a silly gimmick, it worked once or twice, but that is enough
:05:36. > :05:38.for that. Despite some of the derision of Mr Miliband, the Tories
:05:39. > :05:43.are flat-lining in the sun decks, they have been there almost since
:05:44. > :05:48.the disastrous budget, the omnishambles, of 2012, Labour is
:05:49. > :05:53.still several points ahead, nothing seems to change? And David Cameron
:05:54. > :05:57.is now the leader in trouble. It is almost as if a week is a long time
:05:58. > :06:05.in politics. I thought the Labour and friends was Saab --
:06:06. > :06:10.sub-suboptimal. It was so parochial. You could've watched the top
:06:11. > :06:15.speeches without knowing that the borders of Ukraine, and Iraq and
:06:16. > :06:19.Syria were in question. I hope, because of Friday's discussion in
:06:20. > :06:23.Parliament, that this conference will raise its sights a bit, and we
:06:24. > :06:28.will have something in Cameron's speech, possibly that of George
:06:29. > :06:32.Osborne as well, which is a bit more global. People hoped UKIP had gone
:06:33. > :06:39.away during the summer, people at this conference, I mean, but it is
:06:40. > :06:44.back with a bang. They are still up at 15% in the polls, the Tories
:06:45. > :06:49.languishing on 32 - what is going to change? UKIP won 3% of the last
:06:50. > :06:56.election, I always thought they would get about 6%. If, by the turn
:06:57. > :07:01.of the year, they are still in double digits, I think at that point
:07:02. > :07:06.you can begin to wake of his party's chances of winning. I have
:07:07. > :07:11.had three people say to me so far, come election day, it will be fine,
:07:12. > :07:15.people will sober up and so on. It will be all right on the night is
:07:16. > :07:22.not a very good strategy, frankly. When they get past 5%, I start to
:07:23. > :07:26.bite into our 3-way marginal seats, with liberals, Labour and Tories,
:07:27. > :07:31.and we have got about 60 of those in the Midlands and the north, so it
:07:32. > :07:35.really is quite serious. And if I may steal one of David's lines, when
:07:36. > :07:40.you were interviewing Mark Reckless this morning, and was not talking
:07:41. > :07:44.about the EU referendum, he was talking about how he felt he had
:07:45. > :07:48.broken his pledges to the electorate because the Conservatives he said
:07:49. > :07:50.had failed on immigration and on the deficit, and those sort of
:07:51. > :07:54.bread-and-butter issues could be really potent on the doorstep, which
:07:55. > :07:58.means the Tories have got to run the kind of campaign they ran in Newark,
:07:59. > :08:02.which is a real centre ground, Reddan but a campaign, in which they
:08:03. > :08:07.would hope to get Liberal Democrat and Labour voters out to vote
:08:08. > :08:12.tactically against UKIP. I think today we have seen Cameron been
:08:13. > :08:16.pushed to the right. He has had to say, yes, I would leave Europe,
:08:17. > :08:21.which he has never said before. It is a huge stepping stone, a big
:08:22. > :08:27.difference. It takes the Tory party somewhere else. May be get them a
:08:28. > :08:33.lot of votes. But it has not so far. But I think it loses a lot of
:08:34. > :08:37.people. The industry organisations, for example. The prospect of going
:08:38. > :08:44.out of Europe, but is quite a fight for them. Is it not the lesson that
:08:45. > :08:53.you can out UKIP UKIP? Well, you do not need to, really. I agree, last
:08:54. > :09:03.week was sub-sub-suboptimal. Hold on, that is enough subs! I would not
:09:04. > :09:08.be crowing too much! But what I was going to say, he left out something
:09:09. > :09:13.incredibly important, the deficit. But how many people outside the M25
:09:14. > :09:18.are thinking about the deficit? One problem we face with Miliband is, he
:09:19. > :09:23.is good at politics and bad at economics, in a way. He comes up
:09:24. > :09:26.with bonkers policies which people love, price-fixing, things like
:09:27. > :09:31.that. Our problem will be about relevance on the doorstep. I do not
:09:32. > :09:36.think at the end of the day it will be about Europe. But was there not a
:09:37. > :09:39.moment of danger for you at the conference, that one area where
:09:40. > :09:43.Miliband is potentially vulnerable is not having credible team with
:09:44. > :09:46.business. Who turned up at the Labour conference, the head of
:09:47. > :09:52.Airbus, saying, we have got to stay in the European Union? The danger is
:09:53. > :10:00.that Europe allows the Labour Party to gain credibility with business.
:10:01. > :10:03.There is some truth in that. But we are in effectively the home
:10:04. > :10:08.straight, the last six months, and people will be fussing about prices
:10:09. > :10:12.and jobs. Very parochial. They will not be saying, what does the CBI
:10:13. > :10:17.think about this? It is, what is happening to me, in my town, in my
:10:18. > :10:26.factory, in my office. That is where the fight will be. Is it not the
:10:27. > :10:31.truth that if UKIP stays anywhere near around this level of support,
:10:32. > :10:35.it is impossible for the Tories to win an overall majority? I would
:10:36. > :10:38.say, if it is this level of support, it is impossible for the Tories to
:10:39. > :10:43.finish as the biggest party, even in a hung Parliament. The Tories keep
:10:44. > :10:47.trying to win back UKIP voters with cold logic - witches it makes Ed
:10:48. > :10:53.Miliband becoming prime minister more likely. UKIP is basically a
:10:54. > :10:57.vessel phenomenon, coming from the gut, and David Cameron has never
:10:58. > :11:00.found the emotional pitch in his rhetoric to meet that. I wonder
:11:01. > :11:12.whether we will see that moron Wednesday. It is just not him. I
:11:13. > :11:17.hope we do. -- more on Wednesday. I hope you're right that we do
:11:18. > :11:22.actually engage on emotion. So far with UKIP, our policy has been to
:11:23. > :11:26.insult them. It does not work. I know that from my constituency. We
:11:27. > :11:30.have to say to them, there is a wider Tory family, we understand you
:11:31. > :11:36.are patria, we understand you are worried about your family, and we do
:11:37. > :11:38.the same. What does it tell us about the state of the Tories, seven
:11:39. > :11:42.months from the election, the economy is going well, they are not
:11:43. > :11:46.that far behind Labour, and yet there is all sorts of leadership
:11:47. > :11:50.speculation? It is extraordinary. They are doing well, they are in
:11:51. > :12:02.with a shout. It depends. UKIP has to be kept below 9% of. -- below
:12:03. > :12:06.9%. I think David Cameron is one of the few who speaks human, actually
:12:07. > :12:10.talks quite well to people and does not look like a swivel-eyed loons.
:12:11. > :12:15.Whereas a lot of people behind him do. You look at Duncan Smith and
:12:16. > :12:20.Eric Pickles, they are all kind of driven, ideological men, with very
:12:21. > :12:28.right-wing policies. And nice people! Don't hold back! He is not
:12:29. > :12:33.the Addams family, he is basically quite human. I think a lot of people
:12:34. > :12:37.do not realise how ideological he is himself and how well he has led his
:12:38. > :12:41.party in the direction they all want to go. You go on about him being
:12:42. > :12:46.this metropolitan moderniser, I do not think that is what he is,
:12:47. > :12:51.really. It may not be visible from the guardian offices in the
:12:52. > :12:57.metropolis! Everybody where you are, Polly, is a metropolitan moderniser.
:12:58. > :13:00.And where you are, too. That is the nature of living in London. The
:13:01. > :13:04.trouble is, when these people get into Westminster, they are part of
:13:05. > :13:09.Westminster, too. If you could only win by being an outsider, the moment
:13:10. > :13:12.you get in, you are done for. All teeing up nicely for Boris Johnson
:13:13. > :13:22.to be the next leader? I do not think so! The point of my Exocet, or
:13:23. > :13:26.lever, this morning, is that I think this is winnable. If we are good
:13:27. > :13:31.Tories for the next six months, we can do this. It is by denying ground
:13:32. > :13:37.to UKIP, not giving in to them, not buckling. Denying ground. Thank you
:13:38. > :13:41.to our panel. They did all right today, but the normal. That is your
:13:42. > :13:46.lot for today. I am back tomorrow. We will have live coverage of George
:13:47. > :13:50.Osborne's speech to the conference. I am back next week in Glasgow for
:13:51. > :13:55.The Sunday Politics at the Labour conference. How could you miss
:13:56. > :14:25.that? Remember, if it is Sunday it is The Sunday Politics. Bye-bye
:14:26. > :14:40.of statutory press regulation in sponge cake may be a bridge too far.
:14:41. > :14:42.I think I've overdone it with the pistachios
:14:43. > :14:52.and somehow, the custard's split, but it's too late!
:14:53. > :14:57.of statutory press regulation in sponge cake may be a bridge too far.