:00:37. > :00:40.Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving
:00:44. > :00:47.the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?
:00:48. > :00:50.Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime
:00:51. > :01:02.The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending
:01:03. > :01:09.on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be
:01:10. > :01:16.Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.
:01:17. > :01:22.In the West, inside Donald Trump 's private quarters. We catch tp with
:01:23. > :01:27.one of the very in London: Is the battle for
:01:28. > :01:29.Richmond Park based on the skies? Or is it about a bigger conflict in
:01:30. > :01:37.Europe? And with me - as always -
:01:38. > :01:41.and, no, these three aren't doing the Mannequin challenge -
:01:42. > :01:45.it's our dynamic, demonstrative dazzling political panel -
:01:46. > :01:47.Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be
:01:48. > :01:51.tweeting throughout the programme. First this morning -
:01:52. > :01:56.Theresa May has said "Brexit means Brexit" -
:01:57. > :01:59.but can the Prime Minister - who was on the Remain side
:02:00. > :02:01.of argument during the referendum Well, Leave-supporting Tory
:02:02. > :02:09.MPs are re-launching the "European Research Group" this
:02:10. > :02:25.morning to keep Mrs May's feet Are you worried that you cannot
:02:26. > :02:29.trust Theresa May until payment to deliver full Brexit was Magellan
:02:30. > :02:34.like I totally trust Theresa May, 100% behind her. She has displayed a
:02:35. > :02:36.massive amount of commitment to making a success of Brexit for the
:02:37. > :02:41.country. We don't know that yet, because
:02:42. > :02:46.nothing has happened. Why, then have you formed a pressure group? We
:02:47. > :02:52.were fed up with the negativity coming out around Brexit. I feel
:02:53. > :02:55.positive about the opportunities we face, and we are a group to provide
:02:56. > :03:01.suggestions. Who do you have in mind when you talk about negativity the
:03:02. > :03:07.Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems, for example, from Labour MPs. This
:03:08. > :03:13.is a pressure group for leaving membership of the single market and
:03:14. > :03:17.customs union, correct? That is what we are proposing. It has a purpose
:03:18. > :03:22.other than just to combat negativity. When it comes to
:03:23. > :03:25.membership of the single market and the customs union, can you tell us
:03:26. > :03:29.what Government policy is towards both or either? Rightly, the
:03:30. > :03:33.Government hasn't made the position clear, and I think that is the right
:03:34. > :03:41.approach, because we don't want to review our negotiating hand. What
:03:42. > :03:45.we're saying... I'm not asking what you are saying. Can you tell us what
:03:46. > :03:49.Government policy is towards membership of these institutions?
:03:50. > :03:53.The Government wants to make sure British businesses have the right to
:03:54. > :03:57.trade with EU partners, to forge new trade deals with the rest of the
:03:58. > :04:04.world. We hope to Reza may speak at Mansion house this week. -- we had
:04:05. > :04:09.Theresa May speak at Mansion house this week. She has been clear,
:04:10. > :04:13.saying it was not a binary choice. And she's right. Let's run that
:04:14. > :04:18.tape, because I want to pick up on what she did say. This is what she
:04:19. > :04:22.had to say about the customs union at Prime Minister's Question Time.
:04:23. > :04:26.On the whole question of the customs union, trading relationships that we
:04:27. > :04:32.have with the European Union and other parts of the world once we
:04:33. > :04:42.have left the European Union, we are preparing carefully for the formal
:04:43. > :04:44.negotiations. We are preparing carefully for the formal
:04:45. > :04:48.negotiations. We want to ensure we have the best possible trading deal
:04:49. > :04:54.with the EU once we have left. Do you know what she means when she
:04:55. > :04:58.says being in the customs union is not a binary choice? I think she's
:04:59. > :05:01.right when she says that. At the moment, and you know this, as long
:05:02. > :05:06.as we are in the customs union, we cannot set our own tariffs or rules,
:05:07. > :05:12.cannot have a free trade agreement with the US or China. We need to
:05:13. > :05:16.leave a customs union to do that. Binary means either you are in or
:05:17. > :05:19.you are out, self which is it? We still want to trade with the EU and
:05:20. > :05:26.I think we can have a free trade agreement with the EU. That is a
:05:27. > :05:31.separate matter, and it has to do with the single market. What about
:05:32. > :05:35.the customs union? We need to leave the customs union. We do it and
:05:36. > :05:39.properly. That is how to get the most out of this opportunity. Summit
:05:40. > :05:44.is a binary choice? The Prime Minister is right when she says it's
:05:45. > :05:52.not a binary choice. Both can't be right. We can leave the customs
:05:53. > :05:57.union, get their benefits, and have a free trade agreement with zero
:05:58. > :06:01.tariffs with the EU. So it is a binary choice an either be stale
:06:02. > :06:07.really. Yellow like I am saying the Prime Minister is right when she
:06:08. > :06:14.says it is not a binary choice. -- I am saying the Prime Minister is
:06:15. > :06:19.right. We need clarity. Youth had said -- you have said it is a binary
:06:20. > :06:24.choice. We need to leave the constraints of the customs union. It
:06:25. > :06:27.pushes up prices. The EU is not securing the right trade deals, and
:06:28. > :06:31.if we want to make the most of it, we need to get out there and get
:06:32. > :06:36.some deals going. Do you accept that if we remain in the customs union,
:06:37. > :06:52.we cannot do our own free-trade deals? Yellow right 100%. That is
:06:53. > :06:56.why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do you accept that if we leave the
:06:57. > :07:01.customs union but stay with substantial access, I don't say
:07:02. > :07:04.membership, but substantial access to the single market, that goods
:07:05. > :07:08.going from this country to the single market because we're no
:07:09. > :07:14.longer in the union will be subject to complicated rules of origin
:07:15. > :07:21.regulations, which could cost business ?13 billion a year? I would
:07:22. > :07:25.like to see a free-trade agreement between the UK and the EU. Look at
:07:26. > :07:29.the Canadian deal. I give you that, but if we're not in the customs
:07:30. > :07:34.union, things that we bring in on our own tariffs once we've left we
:07:35. > :07:38.can't just export again willy-nilly to the EU. They will demand to see
:07:39. > :07:45.rules of origin. Norway has to do that at the moment and it is highly
:07:46. > :07:48.complicated expensive. I think if we agree a particular arrangement as
:07:49. > :07:51.part of this agreement with the EU, we can reach an agreement on that
:07:52. > :07:57.which sets a lower standard, which sets a different level of tariffs,
:07:58. > :08:02.which protects some of our industries. Let's suppose we have
:08:03. > :08:07.pretty much free trade with the EU but we are out of the customs union,
:08:08. > :08:16.and let's suppose that the European Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese
:08:17. > :08:20.whisky and we decide to have a % tariff - what then happens to the
:08:21. > :08:25.whisky that comes into Britain and goes on to the EU? The EU will not
:08:26. > :08:32.let that in. That will be part of the negotiation. I think there is a
:08:33. > :08:36.huge benefit for external operators. Every bottle of Japanese whisky
:08:37. > :08:41.they will have to work out the rules of origin. There have been studies
:08:42. > :08:45.that show there is a potential for 50% increase in global product if we
:08:46. > :08:50.leave. We're losing the benefits of free trade. I understand, I am
:08:51. > :08:55.asking for your particular view Thank you for that.
:08:56. > :09:00.Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could not bring himself to say we would
:09:01. > :09:07.leave the customs union? It is messy. The reason there is this new
:09:08. > :09:10.group of Tory MPs signing up to a campaign to make sure we get a
:09:11. > :09:16.genuine Brexit is because there is this vacuum. It is being filled with
:09:17. > :09:22.all sorts of briefing from the other side. There is a real risk in the
:09:23. > :09:25.minds of Brexit supporting MPs that the remaining side are going to try
:09:26. > :09:31.to hijack the process, not only through the Supreme Court action,
:09:32. > :09:35.which I think most Brexit MPs seem to accept the appeal will fail, but
:09:36. > :09:40.further down the line, through amendments to the great repeal bill.
:09:41. > :09:45.This is a pressure group to try to hold the Prime Minister to account.
:09:46. > :09:48.There is plenty of pressure on the Prime Minister effectively to stay
:09:49. > :09:55.in the single market and the customs union, and if you do both of these
:09:56. > :09:59.things, de facto, you have stayed in the EU. She is in a difficult
:10:00. > :10:02.position because there is no good faith assumption about what Theresa
:10:03. > :10:08.May wants because she was a Remainer. There is all this talk
:10:09. > :10:11.about a transitional arrangement, but she can't sell that as someone
:10:12. > :10:17.who voted to remain. The way Isabel has characterised it is interesting.
:10:18. > :10:23.There is a betrayal narrative. Everyone is looking to say that she
:10:24. > :10:26.has betrayed the true Brexit. Since the Government cannot give a clear
:10:27. > :10:32.indication of what it once in terms of the customs union, which sets
:10:33. > :10:36.external tariffs, or the single market, which is the free movement
:10:37. > :10:43.of people, capital, goods and services, others are filling this
:10:44. > :10:47.vacuum. Right. The reasons they can't do this are, first, they don't
:10:48. > :10:52.know if they can get it or not. We saw this with the renegotiation the
:10:53. > :11:03.last Prime Minister. What are they hoping to get? The world on a stick,
:11:04. > :11:07.to get cake and eat it. You go into a negotiation saying, let's see what
:11:08. > :11:11.we can get in total. Are they going to ask the membership of the single
:11:12. > :11:23.market? Yellow I think they will ask for a free trade agreement involving
:11:24. > :11:28.everything. You can demand what you want. The question is, do they stand
:11:29. > :11:34.a cat's chance in hell of getting it? They don't know. Welcome back.
:11:35. > :11:40.We will be back, believe me. It is 150 day since we found out the UK
:11:41. > :11:45.had voted to leave the EU, but as we have heard, remain and leave
:11:46. > :11:47.campaigners continue to battle about what type of relationship we should
:11:48. > :11:55.have with the EU after exit. Leave campaigners say
:11:56. > :11:57.that leaving the EU also means quitting
:11:58. > :12:00.Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free
:12:01. > :12:01.movement of goods, services, capital and people.
:12:02. > :12:03.They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting
:12:04. > :12:05.politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during
:12:06. > :12:08.Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost
:12:09. > :12:17.certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.
:12:18. > :12:22.When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay
:12:23. > :12:25."No, we should be outside the Single Market."
:12:26. > :12:28.And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael
:12:29. > :12:30.Gove was absolutely right to say the UK
:12:31. > :12:41.They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before
:12:42. > :12:44.the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the
:12:45. > :12:47.Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving
:12:48. > :12:50.the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:12:51. > :12:52.Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,
:12:53. > :12:59.once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually
:13:00. > :13:04.And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said
:13:05. > :13:06.that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some
:13:07. > :13:11.But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what
:13:12. > :13:17.To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're
:13:18. > :13:20.joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain
:13:21. > :13:34.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave
:13:35. > :13:37.campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many
:13:38. > :13:45.were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was
:13:46. > :13:50.made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12
:13:51. > :13:53.statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the
:13:54. > :13:58.referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.
:13:59. > :14:01.Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian
:14:02. > :14:07.model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went
:14:08. > :14:10.out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading
:14:11. > :14:14.arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the
:14:15. > :14:19.Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade
:14:20. > :14:22.agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the
:14:23. > :14:27.12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself
:14:28. > :14:32.when people were giving really serious thought to such matters The
:14:33. > :14:35.Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters
:14:36. > :14:40.They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.
:14:41. > :14:45.But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should
:14:46. > :14:50.stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked
:14:51. > :14:55.about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from
:14:56. > :14:59.Nigel Farage dates back to 2009 when we didn't even know if we would
:15:00. > :15:03.have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back
:15:04. > :15:07.to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point
:15:08. > :15:13.stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.
:15:14. > :15:18.Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave
:15:19. > :15:21.movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place
:15:22. > :15:25.in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave
:15:26. > :15:29.campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have
:15:30. > :15:32.highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners
:15:33. > :15:38.over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments
:15:39. > :15:44.accurately? I don't think in a 2nd video you can talk about the full
:15:45. > :15:49.thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade
:15:50. > :15:56.agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
:15:57. > :15:58.There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the
:15:59. > :16:00.clip you used on Owen Paterson first.
:16:01. > :16:07.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:08. > :16:11.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:12. > :16:13.It's not the EU which is
:16:14. > :16:16.a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.
:16:17. > :16:19.It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on
:16:20. > :16:22.I mean, are we really suggesting that the
:16:23. > :16:25.economy in the world is not going to come to come
:16:26. > :16:27.to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?
:16:28. > :16:29.Are we going to be like Sudan and North
:16:30. > :16:33.It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a
:16:34. > :16:47.What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that
:16:48. > :16:51.we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country
:16:52. > :16:54.in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our
:16:55. > :16:58.trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David
:16:59. > :17:02.Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box
:17:03. > :17:05.recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the
:17:06. > :17:10.Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of
:17:11. > :17:11.course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't
:17:12. > :17:30.think he was about axis, he is talking
:17:31. > :17:32.about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks
:17:33. > :17:35.about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap
:17:36. > :17:38.off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's
:17:39. > :17:40.the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and
:17:41. > :17:43.Patterson is an example of this saying we can trade as we do now,
:17:44. > :17:45.the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and
:17:46. > :17:48.tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the
:17:49. > :17:49.views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.
:17:50. > :17:52.When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that
:17:53. > :17:54.it might be initially attractive for some business people.
:17:55. > :17:58.So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in
:17:59. > :18:02.the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian
:18:03. > :18:05.option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive
:18:06. > :18:07.for some business people. But then again for voters
:18:08. > :18:10.who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,
:18:11. > :18:13.they will be very concerned that it allows free movement
:18:14. > :18:25.of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.
:18:26. > :18:27.He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real
:18:28. > :18:32.problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.
:18:33. > :18:35.But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them
:18:36. > :18:39.accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what
:18:40. > :18:43.we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying
:18:44. > :18:47.the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It
:18:48. > :18:54.might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free
:18:55. > :18:58.movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are
:18:59. > :19:01.saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are
:19:02. > :19:04.distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.
:19:05. > :19:06.On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:19:07. > :19:14.This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn t
:19:15. > :19:15.run. There is absolutely
:19:16. > :19:17.nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving
:19:18. > :19:18.the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part
:19:19. > :19:22.of the European Economic Area and we should use our
:19:23. > :19:31.membership of the EEA as a holding position from which
:19:32. > :19:35.we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export
:19:36. > :19:37.market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,
:19:38. > :19:47.if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we
:19:48. > :19:52.should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA
:19:53. > :20:02.as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip
:20:03. > :20:06.is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a
:20:07. > :20:09.distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a
:20:10. > :20:12.definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,
:20:13. > :20:17.for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go
:20:18. > :20:20.on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he
:20:21. > :20:24.does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't
:20:25. > :20:27.let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he
:20:28. > :20:31.wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would
:20:32. > :20:35.be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea
:20:36. > :20:38.now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the
:20:39. > :20:42.Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all
:20:43. > :20:47.had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the
:20:48. > :20:51.full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out
:20:52. > :20:54.there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave
:20:55. > :20:58.campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout
:20:59. > :21:02.the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market
:21:03. > :21:06.is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the
:21:07. > :21:10.montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime
:21:11. > :21:13.Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being
:21:14. > :21:16.categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave
:21:17. > :21:20.membership of the Single Market What bit of that didn't you
:21:21. > :21:23.understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to
:21:24. > :21:29.leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other
:21:30. > :21:34.promises they made, whether ?35 million for the NHS, whether a VAT
:21:35. > :21:37.cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of
:21:38. > :21:41.any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan
:21:42. > :21:46.has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market You
:21:47. > :21:48.spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting
:21:49. > :21:51.and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen
:21:52. > :21:55.this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is
:21:56. > :21:58.perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have
:21:59. > :22:02.a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.
:22:03. > :22:05.That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to
:22:06. > :22:09.stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag
:22:10. > :22:12.us out of our biggest trading partner.
:22:13. > :22:14.Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up
:22:15. > :22:16.their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week
:22:17. > :22:19.in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest
:22:20. > :22:21.this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -
:22:22. > :22:24.stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from
:22:25. > :22:27.farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,
:22:28. > :22:42.split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're
:22:43. > :22:52.having their second Watch as the alpha male,
:22:53. > :23:00.the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,
:23:01. > :23:02.the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha
:23:03. > :23:05.female Diane James. The European Parliament
:23:06. > :23:19.in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible
:23:20. > :23:22.future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,
:23:23. > :23:24.has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague
:23:25. > :23:26.during a meeting. A few days later he is
:23:27. > :23:29.out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my
:23:30. > :23:33.application to become I'm actually withdrawing
:23:34. > :23:36.myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party
:23:37. > :23:42.I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document
:23:43. > :23:46.suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political
:23:47. > :23:51.campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes
:23:52. > :23:57.over the leadership of the pack One contender is Suzanne Evans,
:23:58. > :24:00.a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for
:24:01. > :24:09.disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,
:24:10. > :24:12.an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side
:24:13. > :24:18.as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast
:24:19. > :24:20.in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told
:24:21. > :24:23.that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,
:24:24. > :24:28.a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance
:24:29. > :24:31.to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated
:24:32. > :24:45.passionate supporters who feel like they're not really
:24:46. > :24:48.being listened to and are not even Typically what happens
:24:49. > :24:50.is they just basically sit there until six months before
:24:51. > :24:53.a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out
:24:54. > :24:56.and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel
:24:57. > :24:58.there is not an adequate flow of communication
:24:59. > :25:00.up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in
:25:01. > :25:09.any hustings? He left a hustings saying
:25:10. > :25:12.the contest was an establishment coronation and has
:25:13. > :25:14.made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty
:25:15. > :25:17.for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear
:25:18. > :25:19.will amongst the offences should be dealt with
:25:20. > :25:23.decisively. But again, on an issue like that,
:25:24. > :25:26.that is something that Our members are not
:25:27. > :25:31.going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that
:25:32. > :25:33.I would have any authority to have the say and determine
:25:34. > :25:35.the future What method would you use
:25:36. > :25:39.for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could
:25:40. > :25:41.be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online
:25:42. > :25:45.poll about whether you use the electric chair,
:25:46. > :25:51.or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made
:25:52. > :25:53.in favour of This is such a small aspect
:25:54. > :25:58.of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media
:25:59. > :26:00.they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant
:26:01. > :26:06.details. This is one vote that
:26:07. > :26:08.the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do
:26:09. > :26:12.in this party is to revolutionise the democratic
:26:13. > :26:14.process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should
:26:15. > :26:18.be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip
:26:19. > :26:21.would win at Meanwhile, in New York,
:26:22. > :26:29.on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage
:26:30. > :26:37.of the President-elect, a man he has described as
:26:38. > :26:40.a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some
:26:41. > :26:43.in this leadership contest. There are also elections
:26:44. > :26:45.to the party's National Executive Committee, a body
:26:46. > :26:48.that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two
:26:49. > :27:03.of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -
:27:04. > :27:13.Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving
:27:14. > :27:16.each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be
:27:17. > :27:19.the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.
:27:20. > :27:22.Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,
:27:23. > :27:26.forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it
:27:27. > :27:30.really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win
:27:31. > :27:33.seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we
:27:34. > :27:53.need to attract more women, more ethnic
:27:54. > :27:56.minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their
:27:57. > :27:59.party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my
:28:00. > :28:01.leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical
:28:02. > :28:03.party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne
:28:04. > :28:06.Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.
:28:07. > :28:08.I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and
:28:09. > :28:11.prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I
:28:12. > :28:14.am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done
:28:15. > :28:16.every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,
:28:17. > :28:19.whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past
:28:20. > :28:21.six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour
:28:22. > :28:25.constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of
:28:26. > :28:28.working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet
:28:29. > :28:35.are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a
:28:36. > :28:39.mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to
:28:40. > :28:43.realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get
:28:44. > :28:46.together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles
:28:47. > :28:51.within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and
:28:52. > :28:55.whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion
:28:56. > :29:00.polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on
:29:01. > :29:03.the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a
:29:04. > :29:07.grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in
:29:08. > :29:09.the party as well and also a background that I think means I can
:29:10. > :29:20.help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity
:29:21. > :29:23.faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.
:29:24. > :29:25.There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee
:29:26. > :29:28.going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have
:29:29. > :29:31.ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day I
:29:32. > :29:34.think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more
:29:35. > :29:39.open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive
:29:40. > :29:42.Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to
:29:43. > :29:45.be elected reasonably since 201 giving the members better
:29:46. > :29:49.communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a
:29:50. > :29:54.clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,
:29:55. > :29:58.Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person
:29:59. > :30:01.who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show
:30:02. > :30:08.you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with
:30:09. > :30:11.President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's
:30:12. > :30:15.decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr
:30:16. > :30:21.Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.
:30:22. > :30:24.I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is
:30:25. > :30:29.President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the
:30:30. > :30:33.campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,
:30:34. > :30:36.pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put
:30:37. > :30:42.the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne
:30:43. > :30:46.Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I
:30:47. > :30:50.said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest The
:30:51. > :30:54.better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is
:30:55. > :30:59.quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr
:31:00. > :31:04.Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have
:31:05. > :31:08.that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not
:31:09. > :31:11.out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is
:31:12. > :31:17.according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let
:31:18. > :31:20.me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself
:31:21. > :31:24.in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country
:31:25. > :31:25.ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in
:31:26. > :31:35.2020. The other thing your leader has in
:31:36. > :31:42.common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do
:31:43. > :31:49.you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and
:31:50. > :31:53.Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is
:31:54. > :31:58.pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle
:31:59. > :32:05.East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to
:32:06. > :32:09.bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the
:32:10. > :32:13.conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American
:32:14. > :32:20.line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is
:32:21. > :32:23.affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these
:32:24. > :32:32.people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial
:32:33. > :32:35.breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage
:32:36. > :32:40.unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do
:32:41. > :32:44.you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I
:32:45. > :32:49.was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,
:32:50. > :32:52.and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were
:32:53. > :32:56.already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth
:32:57. > :32:58.that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control
:32:59. > :33:07.immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering
:33:08. > :33:11.voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it
:33:12. > :33:15.was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed
:33:16. > :33:20.to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.
:33:21. > :33:26.People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip
:33:27. > :33:33.shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you
:33:34. > :33:36.different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone
:33:37. > :33:39.for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from
:33:40. > :33:46.the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns
:33:47. > :33:53.with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa
:33:54. > :33:57.into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,
:33:58. > :34:02.particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I
:34:03. > :34:08.want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the
:34:09. > :34:12.low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national
:34:13. > :34:15.anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks
:34:16. > :34:20.anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John
:34:21. > :34:24.McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for
:34:25. > :34:29.working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.
:34:30. > :34:35.It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I
:34:36. > :34:38.first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic
:34:39. > :34:42.opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at
:34:43. > :34:45.me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have
:34:46. > :34:52.seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death
:34:53. > :34:55.penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more
:34:56. > :35:00.money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to
:35:01. > :35:09.fund it adequately, and it hasn t been to date. We promised in our
:35:10. > :35:14.manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come
:35:15. > :35:19.from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being
:35:20. > :35:24.taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the
:35:25. > :35:28.money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because
:35:29. > :35:33.that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on
:35:34. > :35:37.management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,
:35:38. > :35:43.foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership
:35:44. > :35:46.fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It
:35:47. > :35:53.cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are
:35:54. > :35:59.not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you
:36:00. > :36:05.get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.
:36:06. > :36:09.Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25
:36:10. > :36:14.million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer
:36:15. > :36:18.than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away
:36:19. > :36:34.from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?
:36:35. > :36:41.Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.
:36:42. > :36:47.Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you
:36:48. > :36:51.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:52. > :36:53.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:36:54. > :37:23.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:37:24. > :37:27.Hello and welcome to the part of the Sunday Politics local
:37:28. > :37:34.Coming up, we talk trains as the West's electric
:37:35. > :37:39.Overbudget and delayed, the government has shunted some
:37:40. > :37:41.of the electrification of the Great Western
:37:42. > :37:45.And ever wanted to step inside Donald Trump's
:37:46. > :37:53.We hear from someone who has popped into Trump Tower only this week
:37:54. > :37:59.It's like walking into Tutankhamun's live home and everything is opulent.
:38:00. > :38:03.It looks bling but at the s`me time it kind of works,
:38:04. > :38:10.And from the Trump to our lhttle dump, but we like it
:38:11. > :38:13.here at Broadcasting House and in the studio with me this week
:38:14. > :38:17.two men who are still waiting for their invite from Mr Trtmp.
:38:18. > :38:23.They are the Conservative MP for Wells James Heappey,
:38:24. > :38:25.and the former Mayor of Bristol George Ferguson.
:38:26. > :38:31.Mr Ferguson it's good to sed you again after a bit of a gap.
:38:32. > :38:35.I want to talk about money first of all because the new mayor has
:38:36. > :38:38.been going around trying to find ways of filling the budget.
:38:39. > :38:44.You left him with no cash didn't you?
:38:45. > :38:46.I cut enormous amounts out of the system.
:38:47. > :38:54.I think it's a political tr`dition to look to the last administration
:38:55. > :38:57.but I have to say that I thhnk Marvin has behaved impeccably.
:38:58. > :39:00.I don't think he's been trying to blame me.
:39:01. > :39:09.I knew that we were going to have to take about 600 jobs
:39:10. > :39:15.But we had to meet the challenge that central
:39:16. > :39:19.I can't remember you saying that during the election
:39:20. > :39:23.I knew that we were going to have to.
:39:24. > :39:26.I made it very clear that we were going to have
:39:27. > :39:28.to make more savings and I made that very clear.
:39:29. > :39:34.Post election somebody came up with 1000 jobs but if you look
:39:35. > :39:37.at the reality it's not going to be a thousand jobs.
:39:38. > :39:43.James, this is another example of austerity.
:39:44. > :39:46.The new mayor is very keen for the government not to m`ke cuts
:39:47. > :39:49.because he says they producd further costs further down the road.
:39:50. > :39:56.Why can't local government be funded properly?
:39:57. > :39:59.It's interesting to hear big cities worrying about their funding.
:40:00. > :40:02.The real injustice in local government funding is the w`y that
:40:03. > :40:05.budgets are being cut more puickly for rural county councils
:40:06. > :40:11.Yes there is the issue of atsterity and the fact that budgets
:40:12. > :40:15.are being driven across the piste but actually the cuts that county
:40:16. > :40:17.councils in rural areas like Somerset are being askdd
:40:18. > :40:20.to make are far greater than those in the cities.
:40:21. > :40:23.I have just been made chair of the rural fair share campaign
:40:24. > :40:26.in Parliament and I'm going to make sure that rural areas like Somerset
:40:27. > :40:31.Sometimes that might need to be the case.
:40:32. > :40:33.Cities have by far the biggdst social issues to deal
:40:34. > :40:37.with and so I think there is a real need.
:40:38. > :40:42.I would argue that in some ways when it is concentrated depravation
:40:43. > :40:45.it's easier to tackle than when you have isolated
:40:46. > :40:48.But that may be for another show perhaps.
:40:49. > :40:53.Another hour, that would be generous!
:40:54. > :40:55.The question was briefly about austerity and do
:40:56. > :41:01.Why not fund all local government properly?
:41:02. > :41:04.I think there is an argument for taking advantage of low
:41:05. > :41:06.interest rates in order to invest in infrastructure.
:41:07. > :41:09.We are talking about rail l`ter on and that is a great example
:41:10. > :41:12.of where I think the governlent could make a business case for it.
:41:13. > :41:16.But borrowing to spend is quite reckless.
:41:17. > :41:19.So you support austerity but you don't support cuts?
:41:20. > :41:22.I think in the autumn statelent we will see some borrowing
:41:23. > :41:24.for infrastructure but not for in year spending.
:41:25. > :41:27.When the electrification of the Great Western Railwax
:41:28. > :41:30.was announced Her Majesty's opposition warned it would put
:41:31. > :41:36.That was the Conservatives back in 2009 when they were in opposition.
:41:37. > :41:39.But under their watch in government the costs has soared by mord
:41:40. > :41:44.than ?1 billion and everythhng is running years behind schddule.
:41:45. > :41:51.We have set aside the money because this is an important
:41:52. > :41:56.Faster, cheaper and also in the long run greener.
:41:57. > :42:00.The fanfare when government announced that costly
:42:01. > :42:02.electrification of the GWR and the warnings that came
:42:03. > :42:09.The government are finding ht by maxing out Network Rail's credit
:42:10. > :42:13.card which will be left with the taxpayer to meet the bill
:42:14. > :42:18.ultimately because the taxp`yer guarantees Network Rail's ddbts
:42:19. > :42:22.So it was halted when they got into power a year later before
:42:23. > :42:27.being relaunched by an up and coming Conservative Transport Secrdtary.
:42:28. > :42:30.This is literally a New Age of rail in Britain.
:42:31. > :42:34.The deal he agreed has gone horribly wrong.
:42:35. > :42:36.The National Audit Office s`y there are delays
:42:37. > :42:43.The cost of electrification has soared by ?1.2 billion.
:42:44. > :42:45.It talks of the Department for Transport's failure to plan
:42:46. > :42:48.and manage any sufficiently joined a boy.
:42:49. > :42:51.But the heaviest criticism is of Network Rail.
:42:52. > :42:54.As rail Minister until the summer clear Perry frequently found herself
:42:55. > :42:57.in the firing line but over electrification she feels able
:42:58. > :43:06.I wrestled with this years as a minister and you are rhght
:43:07. > :43:10.what we have all collectively realised is we have to hold
:43:11. > :43:12.Network Rail much more closely to account.
:43:13. > :43:15.So they have got to improve the way they deliver this money.
:43:16. > :43:18.But equally I don't want government writing them a blank cheque.
:43:19. > :43:22.Electrification has been put on hold between Bath and central
:43:23. > :43:27.That has alarmed everyone from passengers to
:43:28. > :43:36.If they don't run all the w`y to Bristol, what's the point?
:43:37. > :43:39.I think they need to get on and get the job done.
:43:40. > :43:42.It seems to be something th`t written can't do.
:43:43. > :43:46.We cant keep projects on time and on budget.
:43:47. > :43:48.Customers will be disappointed again that we have seen another
:43:49. > :43:54.However, the work we have done with the Department for Transport
:43:55. > :43:57.over the last 12 months means that it will have minimal effect
:43:58. > :43:58.on the benefits they expect to deliver customers
:43:59. > :44:01.which we still expect to deliver by 2019 and what's really ilportant
:44:02. > :44:05.is that we don't see any further delays.
:44:06. > :44:07.Twice this week in Parliament MP3s concerns with the
:44:08. > :44:13.I'm not happy about the way in which the modernisation
:44:14. > :44:16.of the electrification programme has been managed but I'm committed
:44:17. > :44:19.to making sure this project is delivered and the improvdments it
:44:20. > :44:24.The official position is th`t electrification is still pl`nned
:44:25. > :44:28.for lines in and out of Temple Meads and it's hoped it
:44:29. > :44:34.But with all the new trains being converted to also run on didsel
:44:35. > :44:37.given the fact that electric trains could actually couldn't acttally run
:44:38. > :44:40.any faster on the twisting tracks around Bristol,
:44:41. > :44:42.many experts have told me they don't electrification
:44:43. > :44:48.I think it's rather ironic that Bristol was a green city in 201 ,
:44:49. > :44:51.green city of Europe, and yet they don't have a
:44:52. > :44:58.Bristol people should be very unhappy and they need to sedk a date
:44:59. > :45:00.when they can firmly expect to be electrified.
:45:01. > :45:04.The big timetable change with more and faster services at a London
:45:05. > :45:12.A decade after electrificathon was first launched.
:45:13. > :45:16.James, delivering electrification was a key government promisd.
:45:17. > :45:24.It would appear that Network Rail and the DFT have made a real mess
:45:25. > :45:31.It's not just about the journey times from Paddington
:45:32. > :45:34.to Bristol Temple Meads because I accept bimodal tr`ins
:45:35. > :45:37.will probably go the last fdw miles between Bath and Bristol
:45:38. > :45:41.at just the same speed as an electric one word.
:45:42. > :45:45.Actually, the really big impact here is the deferral of parts
:45:46. > :45:48.of the electrification programme in the Thames Valley means
:45:49. > :45:50.that the rolling stock that should have been coming down
:45:51. > :45:54.from the Thames Valley to sort out capacity issues here in Bristol
:45:55. > :45:58.won't come which means that down in Devon and Cornwall they won't get
:45:59. > :46:01.the rolling stock we have here to sort out their capacity
:46:02. > :46:05.This is a huge problem that has knock-on effects across our region
:46:06. > :46:10.and I am really angry that we find ourselves in this position.
:46:11. > :46:16.Just remind me who owns Network Rail.
:46:17. > :46:20.You interrupted me just as I was about to say it.
:46:21. > :46:22.And I'm angry at the Department for Transport.
:46:23. > :46:24.I have made that clear in Parliament.
:46:25. > :46:27.Network Rail is owned by the government?
:46:28. > :46:31.In that case can you explain why they are not pushing forward
:46:32. > :46:35.and carrying out what you promised in your manifesto?
:46:36. > :46:36.You showed the clip of Kerry McCartney's question
:46:37. > :46:41.in the segment before this but you know I think I have asked
:46:42. > :46:43.two questions on this in thd house this week and I've had
:46:44. > :46:46.a number of conversations with Chris Grayling as well.
:46:47. > :46:48.I think we made a very clear commitment to the south-west
:46:49. > :46:52.in our manifesto that has rdsult of electrifying the great
:46:53. > :46:55.Western Railway we would improve journey times and we would free up
:46:56. > :46:58.rolling stock to come down from the Thames Valley to ilprove
:46:59. > :47:03.I intend to hold the governlent to account for delivering that commit.
:47:04. > :47:06.George, is it a big deal can we just manage with how
:47:07. > :47:11.No, I think it is a betrayal and I think it is going
:47:12. > :47:15.You have to bear in mind th`t Bath and Bristol, Bath has
:47:16. > :47:17.5 million passengers a year going through the station.
:47:18. > :47:25.We are both positive contributors to the national economy.
:47:26. > :47:27.Part of that depends on our links with London
:47:28. > :47:33.This will have a negative economic effect.
:47:34. > :47:39.Is it something to do with local government and the political force
:47:40. > :47:54.I cant imagine Nicola Sturgdon putting up with this
:47:55. > :47:58.I had really good meetings with Sir Peter Hendy of Network Rail
:47:59. > :48:00.and with transport ministers and I was promised
:48:01. > :48:03.I knew they were going to bd delays until 2019.
:48:04. > :48:06.Now we are talking about Twenty20 for if it all.
:48:07. > :48:09.I'd do see it as broken promises.
:48:10. > :48:12.I think it's an interesting point actually.
:48:13. > :48:14.There is the Midlands engind room, that is the northern powerhouse
:48:15. > :48:17.There are brands to regional economic development elsewhdre.
:48:18. > :48:21.In the south-west we haven't quite figured out what that is.
:48:22. > :48:24.In Bristol and Bath and those on the M4 corridor seem to be
:48:25. > :48:38.Cornwall is doing something on their own.
:48:39. > :48:42.This isn't to excuse the government and Network Rail's failure hn this
:48:43. > :48:46.area, but maybe if as a penhnsular we had a clearer sense of ptrpose,
:48:47. > :48:49.a clearer sense of collective identity we might find we are able
:48:50. > :48:51.to make a pitch that is mord compelling to ministers
:48:52. > :48:55.At the end of the day, the costs are huge and they have
:48:56. > :48:58.overrun but in the general scheme of things we are a rich country
:48:59. > :49:00.Surely we should be able to electrified line
:49:01. > :49:04.You would think so and I thhnk notwithstanding the carbon hssue
:49:05. > :49:06.or the carbon benefits of h`ving electrified actually
:49:07. > :49:09.there is an economic benefit in doing so as well and as we get
:49:10. > :49:11.the Westwood link from the great Western Railway into Heathrow
:49:12. > :49:14.all of these things that will unlock our region as a place
:49:15. > :49:18.to inwardly invest, we just have to do them.
:49:19. > :49:26.We did try to get Network R`il on the programme but there
:49:27. > :49:32.Now, Theresa May might have been ninth on his list of world leaders
:49:33. > :49:35.to ring him when he won the presidency but Donald Trump
:49:36. > :49:38.insists he still holds a spdcial place in his heart for us
:49:39. > :49:45.Robert Markwell has been to meet one of the privileged few to stdp
:49:46. > :49:54.As photos on your phone go Andy Wigmore's is hard to bdat.
:49:55. > :49:58.Way before any world leader he was one of the very first to pass
:49:59. > :50:02.through the gilded doors of Trump Tower.
:50:03. > :50:07.It's like walking into Tutankhamun's live home and everything is opulent
:50:08. > :50:27.It looks bling at the same time it kind of works,
:50:28. > :50:33.Mr Wigmore is head of commission is for the campaign group
:50:34. > :50:36.EU out of this south Gloucestershire call centre
:50:37. > :50:40.And after their success the now President-elect was often in touch
:50:41. > :50:44.I think he probably pressed the wrong button.
:50:45. > :50:47.He said, Andy I just want to ask a couple of things.
:50:48. > :50:55.My kids couldn't quite get their heads around it.
:50:56. > :51:01.I know it sounds bizarre but it is kind of normal with him
:51:02. > :51:07.Ladies and gentlemen, Mr Nigel Farage.
:51:08. > :51:09.Trump's prediction of delivdring what he called Brexit
:51:10. > :51:15.Both campaigns have plenty in common.
:51:16. > :51:19.The parallels between Brexit and their campaign for us
:51:20. > :51:22.We borrowed some of their techniques.
:51:23. > :51:25.We used the same people and certainly I know
:51:26. > :51:29.they were monitoring everything we did forensically.
:51:30. > :51:31.Trump discovered the power of social media and what it meant.
:51:32. > :51:35.He could have a direct convdrsation with people and they could hnteract.
:51:36. > :51:40.That is an honesty about social major which he understood.
:51:41. > :51:43.So when he was outrageous hd knew the more outrageous he was the more
:51:44. > :51:47.The more attention he got the more outrageous he was.
:51:48. > :51:51.Who's going to pay for the war?
:51:52. > :51:58.We couldn't quite get our hdads around, OK it seems to work,
:51:59. > :52:01.it worked and the more outr`geous we were the more attention we got
:52:02. > :52:07.He this litre gets to the most extreme level.
:52:08. > :52:10.I don't think we were as bolbastic as he was but we
:52:11. > :52:15.Many are still reeling from Trump's surprise when.
:52:16. > :52:17.The ex-mayor of Bristol George Ferguson flew the US
:52:18. > :52:22.But is it politicians who are the ones who are
:52:23. > :52:26.I think the great thing about Brexit and Trump,
:52:27. > :52:29.it's the change in the world dynamic of politics.
:52:30. > :52:37.It's very much that they want to be heard and they don't
:52:38. > :52:38.want the political classes to ignore them.
:52:39. > :52:44.Mr Wigmore together with a millionaire businesslan
:52:45. > :52:47.Aaron Banks are the self-stxled bad boys of Brexit and their tile
:52:48. > :52:51.in the political spotlight hs far from over after pouring ?8 lillion
:52:52. > :52:54.of his own money into the rdferendum Mr Banks is now funding to PC's
:52:55. > :53:00.to examine the details of the Article 50 case.
:53:01. > :53:03.He also unveiled plans this week to drain what he called the swamp
:53:04. > :53:09.He set aside ?10 million to fund up to 200 parliamentary candid`tes
:53:10. > :53:15.who might run against what he calls lazy, ineffective and corrupt MPs.
:53:16. > :53:18.He also wants to abolish thd House of Lords and set a minimum `ge
:53:19. > :53:22.limit of 40 for anyone running for the Commons.
:53:23. > :53:25.We have got a little list and we think it
:53:26. > :53:29.Whether or not that happens we don't know
:53:30. > :53:36.You can't ignore some of what we have to say.
:53:37. > :53:38.This special relationship goes on with both Andy Wigmore
:53:39. > :53:41.and Bristol businessmen Aaron Banks due to be guests of honour
:53:42. > :53:46.at President Trump's inauguration in January.
:53:47. > :53:53.What you make of Trump Tower and the internal decoration?
:53:54. > :53:55.I think it's a vulgar, ritzy and American greed
:53:56. > :53:59.at its worst and I wrote th`t in 1988 having been there.
:54:00. > :54:08.The reason the flag is flying at half-mast is because I sde it
:54:09. > :54:11.The American dream that anyone who comes to America
:54:12. > :54:25.Clearly the words and I do believe the words sadly,
:54:26. > :54:28.the words against immigrants in America have been very d`maging.
:54:29. > :54:31.Having said that, he obviously plugged in to a feeling in liddle
:54:32. > :54:35.America and perhaps elsewhere as the Brexit the beloved and.
:54:36. > :54:38.They are looking after the little guy.
:54:39. > :54:43.In a way that the big polithcal parties haven't done.
:54:44. > :54:47.He actually got a minority of the vote as you know and Clinton
:54:48. > :54:51.So America has got a very strange system.
:54:52. > :54:55.I think what he has done is extremely damaging.
:54:56. > :54:58.This is all part of the post Brexit, post-truth movement and I think
:54:59. > :55:08.Trump is not necessarily to my taste.
:55:09. > :55:17.I would not have voted for him if I had been given the chohce
:55:18. > :55:19.between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton but he did just
:55:20. > :55:23.win an election and I think those of us who don't want to accdpt that
:55:24. > :55:27.or need to be careful about the criticism they potr
:55:28. > :55:29.on Donald Trump when he thrdatened not to accept the result.
:55:30. > :55:33.I have a lot of respect for George but flying the American flag
:55:34. > :55:35.at half-mast, I mean American democracy made
:55:36. > :55:37.a decision and they have elected their president.
:55:38. > :55:40.Whether he is to our taste or not, he won.
:55:41. > :55:43.Whatever his views on minorities and so on?
:55:44. > :55:46.We as a nation don't get a vote in the United States
:55:47. > :55:53.Of course, if he goes on to enact things that we find to be
:55:54. > :55:57.unacceptable, for example going away from climate change, banning Muslims
:55:58. > :56:00.from visiting his country, we will have responsibility as part
:56:01. > :56:04.of the international communhty to challenge him over that.
:56:05. > :56:07.But ultimately America is a sovereign nation,
:56:08. > :56:09.they have democratic process and they have
:56:10. > :56:12.Americans in this country h`ve been very supportive
:56:13. > :56:15.of what I did and they felt I was speaking for them.
:56:16. > :56:20.I've had a lot of contact on social media backing it.
:56:21. > :56:27.It was just a statement, as I made when I bought that flag
:56:28. > :56:33.That just move on to the wider issues and the visit
:56:34. > :56:36.by Aaron Backes, the local businessman who is funding ` lot
:56:37. > :56:41.of the Brexit campaign and his assistant Mr Wigmord.
:56:42. > :56:44.You think it would be a good idea to have less the abilities
:56:45. > :56:50.of Mr Farr Raj to build a bridge between us and the United States?
:56:51. > :56:57.No I don't because I think Nigel Farage has an agenda
:56:58. > :57:00.and political allegiance that is very clear and I suspect
:57:01. > :57:03.that any such role would be rather it useful to his own
:57:04. > :57:08.However, it's very clear from what we've seen from the way
:57:09. > :57:11.Donald Trump has interacted with Nigel Farage we would do well
:57:12. > :57:15.to learn from that and get hnvolved as quickly as we can.
:57:16. > :57:18.The next scheme Mr Banks has got is to find up to 200 candid`tes
:57:19. > :57:21.to drain what they call the swamp of people they don't think
:57:22. > :57:23.a suitable to be MPs, including those actually
:57:24. > :57:33.I don't know how old you are.
:57:34. > :57:39.You so you wouldn't even be able to stand under those rules.
:57:40. > :57:42.I loved watching that PR man in his nice office with the very
:57:43. > :57:46.posh suit looking very well,kept pontificating over that.
:57:47. > :57:49.I have done three combat totrs of Iraq and Afghanistan and direct
:57:50. > :57:52.and I've got an experience that has something to offer.
:57:53. > :57:54.You have to be very careful about saying things like th`t,
:57:55. > :57:56.especially from your perch as a millionaire
:57:57. > :58:04.I think it's up to him but H hate the way money is buying
:58:05. > :58:13.Very bad Americanisation of our politics.
:58:14. > :58:25.Time now for our round-up of the week in just 60 seconds.
:58:26. > :58:28.Ofsted issued a damning report about Swindon schools.
:58:29. > :58:31.It said they were the cause of serious concern and that
:58:32. > :58:34.children in the town were being failed at every level.
:58:35. > :58:38.Headteachers and the council say the criticisms were overly harsh.
:58:39. > :58:40.To give a one-sided view out straight to the media
:58:41. > :58:44.and the parents is dangerous and is not helpful and it whll worry
:58:45. > :58:50.230 jobs are set to go at the GKN factory in Yeovil.
:58:51. > :58:52.The firm announced it would close the plant that makes helicopter
:58:53. > :58:58.We are doing all we can to try to look at lateral
:58:59. > :59:00.thinking to try to make sure there is a future
:59:01. > :59:05.In Bath the Tories strengthdned the control on the council
:59:06. > :59:08.by picking up the seat from the Greens in a by-election.
:59:09. > :59:11.And plans to roll-out a of buses powered by human waste have
:59:12. > :59:18.The first is in Bristol had a trial this vehicle on the aptly
:59:19. > :59:22.The government flushed away hopes when it refused to spend a penny
:59:23. > :59:32.Just coming up, the Autumn Statement next week.
:59:33. > :59:34.That is when the government announces how much it's
:59:35. > :59:41.James, what they want the money to be used for?
:59:42. > :59:50.Broadband, railway, roads, mobile networks, our energy system.
:59:51. > :59:52.All of those things will drhve productivity and it
:59:53. > :59:56.That is what Mr Trump is suggesting of course
:59:57. > :00:01.Clean energy and devolution to the city regions.
:00:02. > :00:09.That is all we have time for this week.
:00:10. > :00:16.Now it's time to return to London and Andrew.
:00:17. > :00:19.And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in
:00:20. > :00:33.Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been
:00:34. > :00:35.touring the television studios this morning.
:00:36. > :00:41.Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press
:00:42. > :00:44.As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only
:00:45. > :00:47.seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.
:00:48. > :00:50.So a lot of this will be a repeat of what
:00:51. > :00:54.I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on
:00:55. > :00:59.We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might
:01:00. > :01:02.imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow
:01:03. > :01:06.hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.
:01:07. > :01:10.That simply doesn't exist if we're going to
:01:11. > :01:12.retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets
:01:13. > :01:17.if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to
:01:18. > :01:30.We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this
:01:31. > :01:38.morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things
:01:39. > :01:44.like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08 of our GDP. Not exactly an
:01:45. > :01:48.infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it
:01:49. > :01:57.was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is
:01:58. > :02:01.the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think
:02:02. > :02:05.there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot
:02:06. > :02:10.set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do
:02:11. > :02:18.is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are
:02:19. > :02:27.-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how
:02:28. > :02:30.they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about
:02:31. > :02:35.the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit
:02:36. > :02:46.until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of
:02:47. > :02:49.Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how
:02:50. > :02:52.Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury
:02:53. > :02:57.comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and
:02:58. > :03:04.collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the
:03:05. > :03:10.economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot
:03:11. > :03:13.say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to
:03:14. > :03:18.take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the
:03:19. > :03:21.Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,
:03:22. > :03:27.and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the
:03:28. > :03:32.Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and
:03:33. > :03:36.spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is
:03:37. > :03:41.a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office
:03:42. > :03:45.for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions
:03:46. > :03:53.there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from
:03:54. > :03:56.Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the
:03:57. > :03:59.referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a
:04:00. > :04:06.way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you
:04:07. > :04:14.were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I
:04:15. > :04:18.say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.
:04:19. > :04:26.I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to
:04:27. > :04:36.build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see
:04:37. > :04:41.them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would
:04:42. > :04:45.suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just
:04:46. > :04:53.managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that
:04:54. > :05:00.simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.
:05:01. > :05:04.These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With
:05:05. > :05:08.income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly
:05:09. > :05:12.expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of
:05:13. > :05:19.that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after
:05:20. > :05:25.pre-briefings that it might not the cuts might not go ahead. There are
:05:26. > :05:30.people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the
:05:31. > :05:35.number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their
:05:36. > :05:39.pay, and these welfare benefits as it stands, are frozen until 202 ,
:05:40. > :05:45.and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just
:05:46. > :05:54.managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are
:05:55. > :06:00.talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so
:06:01. > :06:04.the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple
:06:05. > :06:08.of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it
:06:09. > :06:15.will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing
:06:16. > :06:24.people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,
:06:25. > :06:31.because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow
:06:32. > :06:36.Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed
:06:37. > :06:39.in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is
:06:40. > :06:43.about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for
:06:44. > :06:47.governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for
:06:48. > :06:52.labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need
:06:53. > :06:56.a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the
:06:57. > :07:02.deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond
:07:03. > :07:05.did was to scrap George Osborne s borrowing targets. He has given
:07:06. > :07:10.himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it
:07:11. > :07:16.will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is
:07:17. > :07:22.the next political earthquake going to happen?
:07:23. > :07:29.It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring
:07:30. > :07:32.Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next
:07:33. > :07:33.year's French Presidential elections?
:07:34. > :07:34.Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
:07:35. > :07:37.are selecting their candidate in the first round of
:07:38. > :07:39.Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
:07:40. > :07:42.are selecting their candidate in the first round of
:07:43. > :07:47.Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.
:07:48. > :08:00.Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former
:08:01. > :08:04.prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not
:08:05. > :08:08.clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting
:08:09. > :08:22.race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It
:08:23. > :08:25.is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all
:08:26. > :08:30.the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated
:08:31. > :08:36.by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination
:08:37. > :08:42.there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In
:08:43. > :08:47.other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration
:08:48. > :08:51.and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to
:08:52. > :08:57.appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third
:08:58. > :09:00.candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few
:09:01. > :09:06.days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on
:09:07. > :09:10.television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all
:09:11. > :09:16.surprised to see him go through which would be interesting from a
:09:17. > :09:20.British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the
:09:21. > :09:27.first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.
:09:28. > :09:31.We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is
:09:32. > :09:35.fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right
:09:36. > :09:39.party is likely to be the next president, and who the next
:09:40. > :09:42.president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit
:09:43. > :09:46.negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then
:09:47. > :09:52.after the German elections in October. I would add one more
:09:53. > :10:00.constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop
:10:01. > :10:09.Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the
:10:10. > :10:14.run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done
:10:15. > :10:19.There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three
:10:20. > :10:24.centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit
:10:25. > :10:33.and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy it
:10:34. > :10:40.is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of
:10:41. > :10:44.marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out
:10:45. > :10:47.of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does
:10:48. > :10:51.not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was
:10:52. > :10:54.suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next
:10:55. > :10:58.time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the
:10:59. > :11:05.most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if
:11:06. > :11:09.you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he
:11:10. > :11:13.goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen
:11:14. > :11:21.go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that
:11:22. > :11:27.a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have
:11:28. > :11:33.to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do
:11:34. > :11:45.it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential
:11:46. > :11:48.Clinton voters did not turn out You got politicians like Melanchon on
:11:49. > :11:54.the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of
:11:55. > :11:58.French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise
:11:59. > :12:13.the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic
:12:14. > :12:21.policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French
:12:22. > :12:29.elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate
:12:30. > :12:31.are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running
:12:32. > :12:34.against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist
:12:35. > :12:40.economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise
:12:41. > :12:48.the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not
:12:49. > :12:52.classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.
:12:53. > :12:57.And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an
:12:58. > :13:03.effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the
:13:04. > :13:11.socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We
:13:12. > :13:13.will see what they come up with this time.
:13:14. > :13:18.The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,
:13:19. > :13:24.where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn
:13:25. > :13:33.But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.