:00:37. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:45.Was Fidel Castro a revolutionary hero or a murderous dictator?
:00:46. > :00:49.After the Cuban leader's death, politicians divide over his legacy.
:00:50. > :00:54.Can the NHS in England find billions of pounds' worth of efficiency
:00:55. > :00:59.The Shadow Health Secretary joins me live.
:01:00. > :01:02.Should we have a second Brexit referendum on the terms
:01:03. > :01:06.of the eventual withdrawal deal that's struck with the EU?
:01:07. > :01:09.Former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown and former Conservative cabinet
:01:10. > :01:32.The west, the Government wanted go head-to-head.
:01:33. > :01:35.And with me, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
:01:36. > :01:38.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme
:01:39. > :01:44.Political leaders around the world have been reacting to the news
:01:45. > :01:47.of the death of Fidel Castro, the Cuban revolutionary who came
:01:48. > :01:51.to power in 1959 and ushered in a Marxist revolution.
:01:52. > :01:56.Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson described the former leader
:01:57. > :01:59.as an "historic if controversial figure" and said his death marked
:02:00. > :02:03.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said Castro was "a champion of social
:02:04. > :02:05.justice" who had "seen off a lot of US presidents"
:02:06. > :02:10.President-elect Donald Trump described the former Cuban leader
:02:11. > :02:13.as a "brutal dictator", adding that he hoped his death
:02:14. > :02:16.would begin a new era "in which the wonderful Cuban people
:02:17. > :02:21.finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve".
:02:22. > :02:23.Meanwhile, the President of the European Commission,
:02:24. > :02:26.Jean-Claude Juncker, said the controversial leader
:02:27. > :02:29.was "a hero for many" but "his legacy will be judged
:02:30. > :02:44.I guess we had worked that out ourselves. What do you make of the
:02:45. > :02:48.reactions so far across the political divide? Predictable. And I
:02:49. > :02:56.noticed that Jeremy Corbyn has come in for criticism for his tribute to
:02:57. > :03:00.Castro. But I think it was the right thing for him to do. We all know he
:03:01. > :03:04.was an admirer. He could have sat there for eight hours in his house,
:03:05. > :03:07.agonising over some bland statement which didn't alienate the many
:03:08. > :03:11.people who want to wade into attacked Castro. It would have been
:03:12. > :03:16.inauthentic and would have just added to the sort of mainstream
:03:17. > :03:20.consensus, and I think he was right to say what he believed in this
:03:21. > :03:25.respect. Elsewhere, it has been wholly predictable that there would
:03:26. > :03:31.be this device, because he divided opinion in such an emotive way.
:03:32. > :03:34.Steve, I take your point about authenticity and it might have
:03:35. > :03:40.looked a bit lame for Jeremy Corbyn to pretend that he had no affection
:03:41. > :03:44.for Fidel Castro at all, but do you think he made a bit of an error
:03:45. > :03:48.dismissing Castro's record, the negative side of it as just a floor?
:03:49. > :03:55.He could have acknowledged in more elaborate terms the huge costs. He
:03:56. > :03:58.wanted to go on about the health and education, which if you actually
:03:59. > :04:01.look up the indices on that, they are good relative to other
:04:02. > :04:08.countries. But they have come at such a huge cost. He was not a
:04:09. > :04:12.champion of criminal justice. If he had done that, it would have been
:04:13. > :04:18.utterly inauthentic. He doesn't believe it. And he would have
:04:19. > :04:22.thought there would be many other people focusing on all the epic
:04:23. > :04:28.failings. So he focused on what he believed. There are times when
:04:29. > :04:33.Corbyn's prominence in the media world now as leader widens the
:04:34. > :04:40.debate in an interesting and important way. I am not aware of any
:04:41. > :04:52.criticisms that Mr Corbyn has ever announced about Mr Castro. There
:04:53. > :04:55.were four words in his statement yesterday which is spin doctor would
:04:56. > :05:04.have forced him to say, for all his flaws. He was on this Cuban
:05:05. > :05:09.solidarity committee, which didn't exist to criticise Castro. It
:05:10. > :05:13.existed to help protect Castro from those, particularly the Americans,
:05:14. > :05:17.who were trying to undermine him. And Corbyn made a big deal yesterday
:05:18. > :05:22.saying he has always called out human rights abuses all over the
:05:23. > :05:27.world. But he said that in general, I call out human rights abuses. He
:05:28. > :05:34.never said, I have called out human rights abuses in Cuba. In the weeks
:05:35. > :05:41.ahead, more will come out about what these human rights abuses were. The
:05:42. > :05:48.lid will come off what was actually happening. Some well authenticated
:05:49. > :05:54.stories are pretty horrendous. I was speaking to a journalist who was
:05:55. > :06:01.working there in the 1990s, who gave me vivid examples of that, and there
:06:02. > :06:05.will be more to come. I still go back to, when a major figure diet
:06:06. > :06:11.and you are a leader who has admired but major figure, you have to say
:06:12. > :06:27.it. That is the trap he has fallen into. He has proved every criticism
:06:28. > :06:34.that he is a duck old ideologue. But he is not the only one. Prime
:06:35. > :06:40.Minister Trudeau was so if uses that I wondered if they were going to
:06:41. > :06:45.open up a book of condolences. I think it reinforces Corbyn's failing
:06:46. > :06:48.brand. It may be authentic, but authentic isn't working for him.
:06:49. > :06:56.When I was driving, I heard Trevor Phillips, who is a Blairite, saying
:06:57. > :07:01.the record was mixed and there were a lot of things to admire as well as
:07:02. > :07:04.all the terrible things. So it is quite nuanced. But if you are a
:07:05. > :07:09.leader issuing a sound bite, there is no space for new ones. You either
:07:10. > :07:15.decide to go for the consensus, which is to set up on the whole, it
:07:16. > :07:19.was a brutal dictatorship. Or you say, here is an extraordinary figure
:07:20. > :07:24.worthy of admiration. In my view, he was right to say what he believed.
:07:25. > :07:28.There was still a dilemma for the British government over who they
:07:29. > :07:35.sent to the funeral. Do they sent nobody, do they say and Boris
:07:36. > :07:42.Johnson as a post-ironic statement? There is now a post-Castro Cuba to
:07:43. > :07:46.deal with. Trump was quite diplomatic about post-Castro Cuba.
:07:47. > :07:55.And Boris Johnson's statement was restrained. The thing about Mr
:07:56. > :07:58.Castro was the longevity, 50 years of keeping Marxism on the island.
:07:59. > :07:59.That was what made it so fascinating.
:08:00. > :08:03.Before the last election, George Osborne promised the NHS
:08:04. > :08:07.in England a real-terms funding boost of ?8 billion per year by 2020
:08:08. > :08:10.on the understanding that NHS bosses would also find ?22 billion worth
:08:11. > :08:17.Since last autumn, NHS managers have been drawing up what they're calling
:08:18. > :08:19."Sustainability and Transformation Plans" to make these savings,
:08:20. > :08:26.but some of the proposals are already running into local
:08:27. > :08:29.opposition, while Labour say they amount to huge cuts to the NHS.
:08:30. > :08:35.Help is on the way for an elderly person in need in Hertfordshire.
:08:36. > :08:38.But east of England ambulance call operators
:08:39. > :08:42.they're sending an early intervention vehicle
:08:43. > :08:50.with a council-employed occupational therapist on board.
:08:51. > :08:52.It's being piloted here for over 65s with
:08:53. > :08:57.When they arrive, a paramedic judges if the patient can be
:08:58. > :09:00.treated immediately at home without a trip to hospital.
:09:01. > :09:03.Around 80% of patients have been treated this way,
:09:04. > :09:06.taking the strain off urgently-needed hospital beds,
:09:07. > :09:12.So the early intervention team has assessed the patient and decided
:09:13. > :09:25.The key to successful integration for Hertfordshire being able
:09:26. > :09:27.to collaboratively look at how we use our resources,
:09:28. > :09:29.to have pooled budgets, to allow us to understand
:09:30. > :09:32.where spend is, and to let us make conscientious decisions about how
:09:33. > :09:37.best to use that money, to come up with ideas to problems
:09:38. > :09:40.that sit between our organisations, to look at things collaboratively.
:09:41. > :09:42.This Hertfordshire hospital is also a good example of how
:09:43. > :09:49.You won't find an A unit or overnight beds here any more.
:09:50. > :09:55.The closest ones are 20 minutes down the road.
:09:56. > :09:57.What's left is nurse-led care in an NHS-built hospital.
:09:58. > :10:01.Despite a politically toxic change, this reconfiguration went
:10:02. > :10:03.through after broad public and political consultation
:10:04. > :10:07.with hospital clinicians and GPs on board.
:10:08. > :10:10.It's a notable achievement that's surely of interest to 60% of NHS
:10:11. > :10:17.trusts in England that reported a deficit at the end of September.
:10:18. > :10:20.It's not just here that the NHS needs to save money and provide
:10:21. > :10:26.The Government is going to pour in an extra ?8 billion into the NHS
:10:27. > :10:33.in England, but it has demanded ?22 billion
:10:34. > :10:35.worth of efficiencies across the country.
:10:36. > :10:37.In order to deliver that, the NHS has created 44 health
:10:38. > :10:40.and care partnerships, and each one will provide
:10:41. > :10:44.a sustainability and transformation plan, or STP, to integrate care,
:10:45. > :10:48.provide better services and save money.
:10:49. > :10:52.So far, 33 of these 44 regional plans, drawn up by senior people
:10:53. > :10:55.in the health service and local government,
:10:56. > :11:01.The NHS has been through five years of severely constrained spending
:11:02. > :11:05.growth, and there are another 4-5 years on the way at least.
:11:06. > :11:11.STPs themselves are an attempt to deal in a planned way
:11:12. > :11:17.But with plans to close some A units and reduce the number
:11:18. > :11:22.of hospital beds, there's likely to be a tough political battle
:11:23. > :11:26.ahead, with many MPs already up in arms about proposed
:11:27. > :11:30.This Tory backbencher is concerned about the local plans for his
:11:31. > :11:38.I wouldn't call it an efficiency if you are proposing to close
:11:39. > :11:42.all of the beds which are currently provided for those coming out
:11:43. > :11:44.of the acute sector who are elderly and looking
:11:45. > :11:47.That's not a cut, it's not an efficiency saving,
:11:48. > :11:56.All 44 STPs should be published in a month's time,
:11:57. > :12:01.But even before that, they dominated this week's PMQs.
:12:02. > :12:04.The Government's sustainability and transformation plans
:12:05. > :12:09.for the National Health Service hide ?22 billion of cuts.
:12:10. > :12:12.The National Health Service is indeed looking for savings
:12:13. > :12:17.within the NHS, which will be reinvested in the NHS.
:12:18. > :12:21.There will be no escape from angry MPs for the Health Secretary either.
:12:22. > :12:24.Well, I have spoken to the Secretary of State just this week
:12:25. > :12:28.about the importance of community hospitals in general,
:12:29. > :12:34.These are proposals out to consultation.
:12:35. > :12:39.What could happen if these plans get blocked?
:12:40. > :12:43.If STPs cannot be made to work, the planned changes don't come
:12:44. > :12:48.to pass, then the NHS will see over time a sort of unplanned
:12:49. > :12:50.deterioration and services becoming unstable and service
:12:51. > :12:56.The NHS barely featured in this week's Autumn Statement
:12:57. > :13:03.but the Prime Minister insisted beforehand that STPs
:13:04. > :13:05.are in the interests of local people.
:13:06. > :13:07.Her Government's support will now be critical for NHS England
:13:08. > :13:09.to push through these controversial regional plans,
:13:10. > :13:15.which will soon face public scrutiny.
:13:16. > :13:21.We did ask the Department of Health for an interview,
:13:22. > :13:24.I've been joined by the Shadow Health Secretary,
:13:25. > :13:41.Do you accept that the NHS is capable of making ?22 billion of
:13:42. > :13:44.efficiency savings? Well, we are very sceptical, as are number of
:13:45. > :13:49.independent organisations about the ability of the NHS to find 22
:13:50. > :13:53.billion of efficiencies without that affecting front line care. When you
:13:54. > :13:57.drill down into the 22 billion, based on the information we have
:13:58. > :14:00.been given, and there hasn't been much information, we can see that
:14:01. > :14:04.some of it will come from cutting the budget which go to community
:14:05. > :14:08.pharmacies, which could lead, according to ministers, to 3000
:14:09. > :14:13.pharmacies closing, which we believe will increase demands on A and
:14:14. > :14:17.GPs, and also that a lot of these changes which are being proposed,
:14:18. > :14:25.which was the focus of the package, we think will mean service cuts at a
:14:26. > :14:31.local level. Do they? The chief executive of NHS England says these
:14:32. > :14:34.efficiency plans are "Incredibly important". He used to work from
:14:35. > :14:41.Labour. The independent King's Fund calls them "The best hope to improve
:14:42. > :14:48.health and care services. There is no plan B". On the sustainable
:14:49. > :14:51.transformation plans, which will be across England to link up physical
:14:52. > :14:56.health, mental health and social care, for those services to
:14:57. > :14:58.collaborate more closely together and move beyond the fragmented
:14:59. > :15:05.system we have at the moment is important. It seems that the ground
:15:06. > :15:09.has shifted. It has moved into filling financial gaps. As we know,
:15:10. > :15:14.the NHS is going through the biggest financial squeeze in its history. By
:15:15. > :15:17.2018, per head spending on the NHS will be falling. If you want to
:15:18. > :15:23.redesign services for the long term in a local area, you need to put the
:15:24. > :15:26.money in. So of course, getting these services working better
:15:27. > :15:30.together and having a greater strategic oversight, which we would
:15:31. > :15:35.have had if we had not got rid of strategic health authority is in the
:15:36. > :15:40.last Parliament. But this is not an attempt to save 22 billion, this is
:15:41. > :15:47.an attempt to spend 22 billion more successfully, don't you accept that?
:15:48. > :15:54.Simon Stevens said we need 8 billion, and we need to find 22
:15:55. > :15:59.billion of savings. You have to spend 22 billion more efficiently.
:16:00. > :16:04.But the Government have not given that 8 billion to the NHS which they
:16:05. > :16:10.said they would. They said they would do it by 2020. But they have
:16:11. > :16:15.changed the definitions of spending so NHS England will get 8 billion by
:16:16. > :16:21.2020, but they have cut the public health budgets by about 4 million by
:16:22. > :16:25.20 20. The budget that going to initiatives to tackle sexually
:16:26. > :16:29.transmitted diseases, to tackle smoking have been cut back but the
:16:30. > :16:34.commissioning of things like school nurses and health visitors have been
:16:35. > :16:38.cut back as well. Simon Stevens said he can only deliver that five-year
:16:39. > :16:42.project if there is a radical upgrade in public health, which the
:16:43. > :16:47.Government have failed on, and if we deal with social care, and this week
:16:48. > :16:54.there was an... I understand that, but if you don't think the
:16:55. > :16:59.efficiency drive can free up 22 billion to take us to 30 billion by
:17:00. > :17:04.2020, where would you get the money from? I have been in this post now
:17:05. > :17:07.for five or six weeks and I want to have a big consultation with
:17:08. > :17:13.everybody who works in the health sector, as well as patients, carers
:17:14. > :17:20.and families. Though you don't know? I think it would be surprised if I
:17:21. > :17:26.had an arbitrary figure this soon into the job. Your party said they
:17:27. > :17:31.expected election of spring by this year, you need to have some idea by
:17:32. > :17:36.now, you inherited a portfolio from Diane Abbott, did she have no idea?
:17:37. > :17:41.To govern is to make choices and we would make different choices. The
:17:42. > :17:48.budget last year scored billions of giveaways in things like
:17:49. > :17:59.co-operating -- corporation tax. What I do want to do... Is work on a
:18:00. > :18:05.plan and the general election, whenever it comes, next year or in
:18:06. > :18:09.2020 or in between, to have costed plan for the NHS. But your party is
:18:10. > :18:14.committed to balancing the books on current spending, that is currently
:18:15. > :18:20.John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor's position. What we are
:18:21. > :18:24.talking about, this extra 30 billion, that is essentially current
:18:25. > :18:28.spending so if it doesn't come from efficiency savings, where does the
:18:29. > :18:35.money come from? Some of it is also capital. Mainly current spending. If
:18:36. > :18:46.you look at the details of the OBR, they have switched a million from
:18:47. > :18:50.the capital into revenue. Why -- how do you balance spending?
:18:51. > :18:59.That is why we need to have a debate. Every time we ask for
:19:00. > :19:03.Labour's policy, we are always told me a debate. Surely it is time to
:19:04. > :19:07.give some idea of what you stand for? There's huge doubts about the
:19:08. > :19:12.Government 's policy on this. You are the opposition, how would you do
:19:13. > :19:16.it? I want to work with John McDonnell to find a package to give
:19:17. > :19:20.the NHS the money it needs, but of course our Shadow Chancellor, like
:19:21. > :19:24.any Shadow Chancellor at this stage in the cycle, will want to see what
:19:25. > :19:30.the books look like a head of an election before making commitments.
:19:31. > :19:33.I am clear that the Labour Party has to go into the next general election
:19:34. > :19:35.with a clear policy to give the NHS the funding it needs because it has
:19:36. > :19:41.been going through the largest financial squeeze in its history.
:19:42. > :19:46.You say Labour will always give the NHS the money it needs, that is not
:19:47. > :19:51.a policy, it is a blank cheque. It is an indication of our commitment
:19:52. > :19:55.to the NHS. Under this Conservative government, the NHS has been getting
:19:56. > :20:00.a 1% increase. Throughout its history it has usually have about
:20:01. > :20:05.4%. Under the last Labour government it was getting 4%, before that
:20:06. > :20:08.substantially more. We think the NHS should get more but I don't have
:20:09. > :20:17.access to the NHS books in front of me. The public thinks there needs to
:20:18. > :20:22.be more money spent on health but they also think that should go cap
:20:23. > :20:27.in hand with the money being more efficiently spent, which is what
:20:28. > :20:33.this efficiency drive is designed to release 22 billion. Do you have an
:20:34. > :20:38.efficiency drive if it is not the Government's one? Of course we
:20:39. > :20:42.agree. We agree the NHS should be more efficient, we want to see
:20:43. > :20:50.productivity increased. Do know how to do that? One way is through
:20:51. > :20:56.investments, maintenance, but there is a 5 million maintenance backlog.
:20:57. > :21:03.One of the most high risk backlogs is something like 730 million. They
:21:04. > :21:07.are going to switch the capital spend into revenue spend. I believe
:21:08. > :21:10.that when you invest in maintenance and capital in the NHS, that
:21:11. > :21:15.contribute to increasing its productivity. You are now talking
:21:16. > :21:21.about 5 billion the maintenance, the chief executive says it needs 30
:21:22. > :21:28.billion more by 2020 as a minimum so that 35 billion. You want to spend
:21:29. > :21:31.more on social care, another for 5 billion on that so we have proper
:21:32. > :21:35.care in the community. By that calculation I'm up to about 40
:21:36. > :21:40.billion, which is fine, except where do you get the and balance the
:21:41. > :21:45.account at the same time? We will have to come up with a plan for that
:21:46. > :21:48.and that's why I will work with our Shadow Treasury team to come up with
:21:49. > :21:52.that plan when they head into the general election. At the moment we
:21:53. > :21:56.are saying to the NHS, sorry, we are not going to give you the
:21:57. > :22:04.investment, which is why we are seeing patient care deteriorating.
:22:05. > :22:09.The staff are doing incredible things but 180,000 are waiting in
:22:10. > :22:13.A beyond four hours, record levels of people delayed in beds in
:22:14. > :22:17.hospitals because there are not the beds in the community to go to save
:22:18. > :22:20.the NHS needs the investment. We know that and we know the
:22:21. > :22:25.Government's response to that and many think it is inadequate. What
:22:26. > :22:28.I'm trying to get from you is what your response would be and what your
:22:29. > :22:33.reaction will be to these efficiency plans. Your colleague Heidi
:22:34. > :22:39.Alexander, she had your job earlier this year, she warned of the danger
:22:40. > :22:47.of knee jerk blanket opposition to local efficiency plans. Do you agree
:22:48. > :22:53.with that? Yes. So every time a hospital is going to close as a
:22:54. > :22:56.result of this, and some will, it is Labour default position not just
:22:57. > :23:01.going to be we are against it? That is why we are going to judge each of
:23:02. > :23:05.these sustainability plans by a number of yardsticks. We want to see
:23:06. > :23:09.if they have the support of local clinicians, we want to see if they
:23:10. > :23:12.have the support of local authorities because they now have a
:23:13. > :23:16.role in the delivery of health care. We want to see if they make the
:23:17. > :23:20.right decisions for the long-term trends in population for local area.
:23:21. > :23:24.We want to see if they integrate social care and health. If they
:23:25. > :23:29.don't and therefore you will not bank that as an efficiency saving,
:23:30. > :23:33.you will say no, that's not the way to go, you are left then with
:23:34. > :23:39.finding the alternative funding to keep the NHS going. If you are
:23:40. > :23:45.cutting beds, for example the proposal is to cut something like
:23:46. > :23:49.5000 beds in Derbyshire and if there is the space in the community sector
:23:50. > :23:54.in Derbyshire, that will cause big problems for the NHS in the long
:23:55. > :23:59.term so it is a false economy. An example like that, we would be very
:24:00. > :24:02.sceptical the plans could work. Would it not be honest, given the
:24:03. > :24:08.sums of money involved and your doubts about the efficiency plan,
:24:09. > :24:13.which are shared by many people, to just say, look, among the wealthy
:24:14. > :24:19.nations, we spend a lower proportion of our GDP on health than most of
:24:20. > :24:24.the other countries, European countries included, we need to put
:24:25. > :24:29.up tax if we want a proper NHS. Wouldn't that be honest? I'm not the
:24:30. > :24:35.Shadow Chancellor, I don't make taxation policy. You are tempting me
:24:36. > :24:40.down a particular road by you or I smile. John McDonnell will come up
:24:41. > :24:43.with our taxation policy. We have had an ambition to meet the European
:24:44. > :24:47.average, the way these things are measured have changed since then,
:24:48. > :24:53.but we did have that ambition and for a few years we met it. We need
:24:54. > :24:56.substantial investment in the NHS. Everyone accepts it was
:24:57. > :25:00.extraordinary that there wasn't an extra penny for the NHS in the
:25:01. > :25:05.Autumn Statement this week. And as we go into the general election,
:25:06. > :25:10.whenever it is, we will have a plan for the NHS. Come back and speak to
:25:11. > :25:12.us when you know what you are going to do. Thank you.
:25:13. > :25:14.Theresa May has promised to trigger formal Brexit negotiations
:25:15. > :25:17.before the end of March, but the Prime Minister must wait
:25:18. > :25:19.for the Supreme Court to decide whether parliament must vote
:25:20. > :25:23.If that is the Supreme Court's conclusion, the Liberal Democrats
:25:24. > :25:25.and others in parliament have said they'll demand a second EU
:25:26. > :25:28.referendum on the terms of the eventual Brexit deal before
:25:29. > :25:31.And last week, two former Prime Ministers suggested
:25:32. > :25:34.that the referendum result could be reversed.
:25:35. > :25:37.In an interview with the New Statesman on Thursday,
:25:38. > :25:41.Tony Blair said, "It can be stopped if the British people decide that,
:25:42. > :25:43.having seen what it means, the pain-gain cost-benefit analysis
:25:44. > :25:49.John Major also weighed in, telling a meeting
:25:50. > :25:52.of the National Liberal Club that the terms of Brexit
:25:53. > :25:54.were being dictated by the "tyranny of the majority".
:25:55. > :25:56.He also said there is a "perfectly credible case"
:25:57. > :26:00.That prompted the former Conservative leader
:26:01. > :26:03.Iain Duncan Smith to criticise John Major.
:26:04. > :26:06.He told the BBC, "The idea we delay everything simply
:26:07. > :26:08.because they disagree with the original result does
:26:09. > :26:13.seem to me an absolute dismissal of democracy."
:26:14. > :26:16.So, is there a realistic chance of a second referendum on the terms
:26:17. > :26:21.of whatever Brexit deal Theresa May manages to secure?
:26:22. > :26:24.Lib Dem party leader Tim Farron has said, "We want to respect
:26:25. > :26:28.the will of the people and that means they must have their say
:26:29. > :26:31.in a referendum on the terms of the deal."
:26:32. > :26:34.But the Lib Dems have just eight MPs - they'll need Labour support
:26:35. > :26:40.One ally is former Labour leadership candidate Owen Smith.
:26:41. > :26:43.He backs the idea of a second referendum.
:26:44. > :26:46.But yesterday the party's deputy leader, Tom Watson, said that,
:26:47. > :26:49."Unlike the Lib Dem Brexit Deniers, we believe in respecting
:26:50. > :26:57.To discuss whether or not there should be a second referendum
:26:58. > :27:00.on the terms of the Brexit deal, I've been joined by two
:27:01. > :27:03.In Somerset is the former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown,
:27:04. > :27:05.and in Shropshire is the former Conservative cabinet minister
:27:06. > :27:17.Paddy Ashdown, let me come to you first. When the British people have
:27:18. > :27:23.spoken, you do what they command, either you believe in democracy or
:27:24. > :27:30.you don't. When democracy speaks, we obey. Your words on the night of the
:27:31. > :27:33.referendum, what's changed? Nothing has changed, Andrew, that's what I
:27:34. > :27:38.said and what I still believe in. The British people have spoken, we
:27:39. > :27:44.will not block Parliament debating the Brexit decision, Article 50, but
:27:45. > :27:51.we will introduce an amendment to say that we need to consult the
:27:52. > :27:58.British people, not about if we go out but what destination we would
:27:59. > :28:02.then achieve. There is a vast difference in ordinary people's
:28:03. > :28:06.lives between the so-called hard Brexit and soft Brexit. Soft Brexit,
:28:07. > :28:11.you remain in the single market, you have to accept and agree on
:28:12. > :28:19.immigration. Hard Brexit you are out of the single market, we have many
:28:20. > :28:25.fewer jobs... Why didn't you say before the referendum there would be
:28:26. > :28:29.a second referendum on the terms? Forgive me, I said it on many
:28:30. > :28:34.occasions, you may not have covered it, Andrew, but that's a different
:28:35. > :28:38.thing. In every speech I gave I said this, and this has proved to be
:28:39. > :28:41.true, since those who recommended Brexit refused to tell us the
:28:42. > :28:47.destination they were recommending, they refuse to give any detail about
:28:48. > :28:51.the destination, if we did vote to go out, it would probably be
:28:52. > :28:55.appropriate to decide which destination, hard Brexit or soft
:28:56. > :29:00.Brexit we go to. They deliberately obscure that because it made it more
:29:01. > :29:06.difficult to argue the case. It wasn't part of the official campaign
:29:07. > :29:10.but let me come to Owen Paterson. What's wrong with a referendum on
:29:11. > :29:14.the terms of the deal? We voted to leave but we don't really know on
:29:15. > :29:17.what conditions we leave so what's wrong with negotiating the deal and
:29:18. > :29:25.putting that deal to the British people? This would be a ridiculous
:29:26. > :29:29.idea, it would be a complete gift to the EU negotiators to go for an
:29:30. > :29:34.impossibly difficult deal because they want to do everything to make
:29:35. > :29:39.sure that Brexit does not go through. This nonsense idea of hard
:29:40. > :29:43.Brexit and soft Brexit, it was never discussed during the referendum
:29:44. > :29:49.campaign. We made it clear we wanted to take back control, that means
:29:50. > :29:52.making our own laws, raising and spending the money agreed by elected
:29:53. > :29:56.politicians, getting control of our own borders back, and getting
:29:57. > :30:00.control of our ability to do trade deals around the world. That was
:30:01. > :30:06.clear at all stages of the referendum. We got 17.4 million
:30:07. > :30:11.votes, the biggest vote in history for any issue, that 52%, 10% more
:30:12. > :30:16.than John Major got and he was happy with his record number of 14
:30:17. > :30:20.million, more than Tony Blair got, which was 43%, so we have a very
:30:21. > :30:25.clear mandate. Time and again people come up to me and say when are we
:30:26. > :30:28.going to get on with this. The big problem is uncertainty. We want to
:30:29. > :30:31.trigger Article 50, have the negotiation and get to a better
:30:32. > :30:41.place. OK, I need to get a debate going.
:30:42. > :30:45.Paddy Ashdown, the EU doesn't want us to leave. If they knew there was
:30:46. > :30:47.going to be a second referendum, surely there was going to be a
:30:48. > :30:49.second referendum, surely their incentive would be to give us the
:30:50. > :30:54.worst possible deal would vote against it would put us in a
:30:55. > :30:59.ridiculous negotiating position. On the contrary, the government could
:31:00. > :31:01.go and negotiate with the European Union and anyway, the opinion of the
:31:02. > :31:05.European Union is less important than the opinion of the British
:31:06. > :31:10.people. It seems to me that Owen Paterson made the case for me
:31:11. > :31:16.precisely. They refuse to discuss what kind of destination. Britain
:31:17. > :31:19.voted for departure, but not a destination. Because Owen Paterson
:31:20. > :31:24.and his colleagues refused to discuss what their model was. So the
:31:25. > :31:28.range of options here and the impact on the people of Britain is huge.
:31:29. > :31:31.There is nothing to stop the government going to negotiate,
:31:32. > :31:36.getting the best deal it can and go into the British people and saying,
:31:37. > :31:44.this is the deal, guys, do you agree? Owen Paterson? It is simple.
:31:45. > :31:51.The British people voted to leave. We voted to take back control of our
:31:52. > :31:54.laws, our money, our borders. But most people don't know the shape of
:31:55. > :32:01.what the deal would be. So why not have a vote on it? Because it would
:32:02. > :32:06.be a gift to the EU negotiators to drive the worst possible deal in the
:32:07. > :32:10.hope that it might be chucked out with a second referendum. The
:32:11. > :32:17.biggest danger is the uncertainty. We have the biggest vote in British
:32:18. > :32:21.history. You have said all that. It was your side that originally
:32:22. > :32:26.proposed a second referendum. The director of Leave said, there is a
:32:27. > :32:32.strong democratic case for a referendum on what the deal looks
:32:33. > :32:43.like. Your side. Come on, you are digging up a blog from June of 2015.
:32:44. > :32:51.He said he had not come to a conclusion. He said it is a distinct
:32:52. > :32:56.possibility. No senior members of the campaign said we would have a
:32:57. > :32:59.second referendum. It is worth chucking Paddy the quote he gave on
:33:00. > :33:03.ITV news, whether it is a majority of 1% or 20%, when the British
:33:04. > :33:10.people have spoken, you do what they command. People come up to me and
:33:11. > :33:19.keep asking, when are you going to get on with it? What do you say to
:33:20. > :33:22.that, Paddy Ashdown? Owen Paterson has obviously not been paying
:33:23. > :33:33.attention. You ask me that question at the start. Owen and his kind have
:33:34. > :33:36.to stick to the same argument. During the referendum, when we said
:33:37. > :33:43.that the Europeans have it in their interest to picket tough for us,
:33:44. > :33:46.they would suffer as well. And that has proved to be right. The European
:33:47. > :33:52.Union does not wish to hand as a bad deal, because they may suffer in the
:33:53. > :34:04.process. We need the best deal for both sides. I can't understand why
:34:05. > :34:08.Owen is now reversing that argument. Here is the question I am going to
:34:09. > :34:16.ask you. If we have a second referendum on the deal and we vote
:34:17. > :34:27.by a very small amount, by a sliver, to stay in, can we then make it
:34:28. > :34:33.best-of-3? No, Andrew! Vince Cable says he thinks if you won, he would
:34:34. > :34:37.have to have a decider. You will have to put that income tax, because
:34:38. > :34:45.I don't remember when he said that. -- you have to put that in context.
:34:46. > :34:51.Independent, 19th of September. That is a decision on the outcome. The
:34:52. > :34:56.central point is that the British people voted for departure, not a
:34:57. > :35:01.destination. In response to the claim that this is undemocratic, if
:35:02. > :35:06.it is democratic to have one referendum, how can it be
:35:07. > :35:09.undemocratic to have two? Owen Paterson, the British government, on
:35:10. > :35:13.the brink of triggering article 50, cannot tell us if we will remain
:35:14. > :35:20.members of the single market, if we will remain members of the customs
:35:21. > :35:24.union. From that flows our ability to make trade deals, our attitude
:35:25. > :35:27.towards freedom of movement and the rest of it. Given that the
:35:28. > :35:31.government can't tell us, it is clear that the British people have
:35:32. > :35:36.no idea what the eventual shape will be. That is surely the fundamental
:35:37. > :35:43.case for a second referendum. Emphatically not. They have given a
:35:44. > :35:50.clear vote. That vote was to take back control. What the establishment
:35:51. > :35:53.figures like Paddy should recognise is the shattering damage it would do
:35:54. > :36:00.to the integrity of the whole political process if this was not
:36:01. > :36:04.delivered. People come up to me, as I have said for the third time now,
:36:05. > :36:10.wanting to know when we will get article 50 triggered. Both people
:36:11. > :36:14.who have voted to Remain and to Leave. If we do not deliver this, it
:36:15. > :36:18.will be disastrous for the reputation and integrity of the
:36:19. > :36:26.whole political establishment. Let me put that you Paddy Ashdown. It is
:36:27. > :36:30.very Brussels elite - were ask your question but if we don't like the
:36:31. > :36:39.answer, we will keep asking the question. Did it with the Irish and
:36:40. > :36:45.French. It is... It would really anger the British people, would it
:36:46. > :36:49.not? That is an interesting question, Andrew. I don't think it
:36:50. > :36:52.would. All the evidence I see in public meetings I attended, and I
:36:53. > :36:56.think it is beginning to show in the opinion polls, although there hasn't
:36:57. > :36:59.been a proper one on this yet, I suspect there is a majority in
:37:00. > :37:03.Britain who would wish to see a second referendum on the outcome.
:37:04. > :37:08.They take the same view as I do. What began with an open democratic
:37:09. > :37:11.process cannot end with a government stitch up. Contrary to what Owen
:37:12. > :37:19.suggests, there is public support for this. And far from damaging the
:37:20. > :37:23.government and the political class, it showed that we are prepared to
:37:24. > :37:32.listen. We shall see. Paddy Ashdown, have you eaten your hat yet? Andrew,
:37:33. > :37:38.as you well know, I have eaten five hats. You cannot have a second
:37:39. > :37:41.referendum until you eat your hat on my programme. We will leave it
:37:42. > :37:48.there. Paddy Ashdown and Owen Paterson, thank you much. I have
:37:49. > :37:51.eaten a hat on your programme. I don't remember!
:37:52. > :37:53.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:54. > :38:07.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:08. > :38:13.Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics here the glorious west of
:38:14. > :38:18.England. Coming up, forget Hinckley, we are talking about the other fast
:38:19. > :38:22.energy Project held up by delays. Every home in Britain will be able
:38:23. > :38:28.to upgrade to a smart meter by 2020. We are all meant to be getting smart
:38:29. > :38:32.meters very soon, it is part of an ?11 billion scheme that is meant to
:38:33. > :38:36.save you money on your bills, so why have only a few of us bothered so
:38:37. > :38:40.far. And two high-energy politicians join
:38:41. > :38:46.me in the studio this week, so don't reach for the off button. The Labour
:38:47. > :38:52.MP for Bristol West, bang Debonair, and Ukip's deputy chairman William
:38:53. > :38:56.Dartmouth, welcome to you both. I want to you about this week's big
:38:57. > :39:01.story, the Autumn Statement, and it has emerged that the cost of leaving
:39:02. > :39:07.Brexit according to the office of fiscal responsibility is ?58
:39:08. > :39:13.billion. Worth it, William? This is yet another wonky estimate to a lot
:39:14. > :39:16.of people -- from a lot of people who have produced wonky estimates in
:39:17. > :39:23.the past, including the great financial crash of 2009. My
:39:24. > :39:28.colleague, I have never met him: the same side of the political argument,
:39:29. > :39:32.professor Patrick Minford, as pointed out the many flawed
:39:33. > :39:40.assumptions which this estimate is based. As many people still know, we
:39:41. > :39:45.are still in the European Union until such time as we leave. Which
:39:46. > :39:49.is over two years ago, so these estimates can't be taken seriously.
:39:50. > :39:56.On the off chance that they are right, would it be worth it? We have
:39:57. > :40:06.always argued that either the UK is a sovereign country or it's not. And
:40:07. > :40:11.the fact of the matter is we need to retain control of our laws and have
:40:12. > :40:17.an end to open borders, stop making payments to the European Union and
:40:18. > :40:21.also a repatriation of fishing. And that cost 58 billion, that is OK? I
:40:22. > :40:24.also disagree with it because the fact of the matter is we have
:40:25. > :40:32.actually dodged a bullet by getting out. I will bring Thangam Debbonaire
:40:33. > :40:38.in. 58 billion, you call that dodging a bullet? If we had stayed
:40:39. > :40:45.the Greek crisis is still going on, the Greek crisis is still going on,
:40:46. > :40:49.the statistics are just not right. What price would have been
:40:50. > :40:55.acceptable. Would 5 billion? 2 acceptable. Would 5 billion? 2
:40:56. > :41:00.billion? What we need to talk about this week is there is 122 billion
:41:01. > :41:07.black hole in the country's finances, 58 which can be accounted
:41:08. > :41:12.for by Brexit alone and things will get worse, as you know, when we
:41:13. > :41:16.leave. As we come out of the single market, firms in my constituency and
:41:17. > :41:19.across the west will not be able to trade in the same way. 3 million
:41:20. > :41:25.European workers are doing a great job in Britain, where are they going
:41:26. > :41:29.to go? As it is likely to be down to MPs whether they trigger Article
:41:30. > :41:39.could you proceed with Brexit, what will you do? We have said all along,
:41:40. > :41:42.people didn't vote for chaos. What I have said very clearly is I want to
:41:43. > :41:48.know what the Government's plan is an all they have said so far is
:41:49. > :41:50.occasionally breakfast, so they have occasionally breakfast, so they have
:41:51. > :41:55.no plan, so at the moment, there is nothing to vote for. We can't
:41:56. > :42:01.trigger Article 50 without knowing that. Would you vote for article 52
:42:02. > :42:06.be triggered at the moment? No, there is no plan, we need to know
:42:07. > :42:10.what the planners. I point out that China, not a member of the European
:42:11. > :42:13.more goods to the European Union more goods to the European Union
:42:14. > :42:17.than we do. You do not have to be a member to have access to the single
:42:18. > :42:20.market and that is the big Lie constantly being put forward. Q1 to
:42:21. > :42:23.explain what the rules are? I can explain what the rules are? I can
:42:24. > :42:30.explain them. Do you want to put explain them. Do you want to put
:42:31. > :42:35.tariff barriers on... The average is 3.5%. 3-point fibres of more than
:42:36. > :42:40.they have to do at the moment. So long as we stay in the single
:42:41. > :42:44.market, the 85% of the British economy that doesn't trade with the
:42:45. > :42:50.EU is subject to the full burden and wait... All of the businesses I have
:42:51. > :42:53.spoken so, the university, the hospitals, the aerospace industry,
:42:54. > :42:56.do not shout over me, the financial services, they have all said they
:42:57. > :43:01.need to be in the European single market. You need to get out more,
:43:02. > :43:09.with respect. It is a good thing you added that. It is that macro if I
:43:10. > :43:13.dare say it, Ukip's turmoil at the top is taking its toll. In Swindon,
:43:14. > :43:16.several senior officers have quit and the former chairman has claimed
:43:17. > :43:20.the party is going nowhere. With a new leader due to be announced on
:43:21. > :43:27.Monday, what next for the party that was once team Farage?
:43:28. > :43:32.The rise and rise and rise of Ukip in the west, from European elections
:43:33. > :43:36.to council contests, taking votes from the blues and, especially
:43:37. > :43:40.recently, the Reds. Politically, Swindon is always a tight fight
:43:41. > :43:46.between Labour and Conservative but Ukip have made quite an impact in
:43:47. > :43:49.recent years. At last year's General Election, they came third in the
:43:50. > :43:53.town. The town's membership swelled and help to deliver a strong vote
:43:54. > :44:00.for leaving the referendum but since then, things have gone badly
:44:01. > :44:04.backwards. The Ukiah Independence party... He stood for Parliament
:44:05. > :44:09.last year as well as in Council and Police and Crime Commissioner
:44:10. > :44:14.elections and was Swindon chairman, but John Short has now quit. I left
:44:15. > :44:18.because I was totally dissatisfied with what was happening with the
:44:19. > :44:25.party, with all of the infighting and the way in which it was going.
:44:26. > :44:30.It was not going anywhere, nationally, or even centrally, and
:44:31. > :44:35.all of the infighting and the way in which they were destroying the
:44:36. > :44:41.party, I thought, I don't want to be part of this. In just five months,
:44:42. > :44:46.Ukip has had two leadership contest, top contenders quitting the party
:44:47. > :44:52.and scuffles in Strasbourg. It is sad, it has lost its way, they need
:44:53. > :44:56.to sit down and get it sorted out. It shows you it is chaos, that
:44:57. > :45:03.somebody should sit down, a group should sit down and really resolve
:45:04. > :45:06.it. So no more campaigning for him or dozens of others Swindon members
:45:07. > :45:12.who have also left the party. Numbers are down across the west
:45:13. > :45:18.Country and in Filton and Bradley Stoke, the chairman is staying loyal
:45:19. > :45:21.but feels let down. To have the sort of business going on at the top is
:45:22. > :45:26.frustrating and all we want to do is get on and do the work of the party
:45:27. > :45:29.and essentially what they want to do and what they want to achieve and we
:45:30. > :45:33.have kind of been hindered in that way, it has been a massive
:45:34. > :45:37.frustration. One minute, you think you have got a leader and the next
:45:38. > :45:42.minute you haven't, and the next minute, they are having a punch-up
:45:43. > :45:46.in the European Parliament. All of that is nonsense and we need to
:45:47. > :45:53.concentrate on the job in hand, get our own club in order and move
:45:54. > :45:57.forward again. He was greeted with fanfare in 2012 when, as a
:45:58. > :46:01.Conservative councillor, he defected to Ukip. The party was entering a
:46:02. > :46:09.purple patch. It culminated in the referendum of 2016, a turning point
:46:10. > :46:13.for Britain and possibly for Ukip. William, is this the beginning of
:46:14. > :46:18.the M4 Ukip? As Figaro absolutely not before I say anything else, I do
:46:19. > :46:24.want to apologise to our supporters for the disorganisation of the last
:46:25. > :46:27.three months. The fact of the matter is there is a leadership election
:46:28. > :46:32.going on now, there will be a new leader on Monday and we will all get
:46:33. > :46:44.behind the leader. You haven't done that before. It is going to happen
:46:45. > :46:47.now. There are many MPs, many of the political establishment, Tony Blair,
:46:48. > :46:55.Peter Mandelson and the rest, who are trying to unpick the referendum
:46:56. > :46:58.result. In terms of Parliamentary constituencies, over 400
:46:59. > :47:04.constituencies actually voted to leave and it is important that it is
:47:05. > :47:10.carried through. I will predict that those characters will have a fight
:47:11. > :47:17.about them, as your members do. You have fisticuffs, don't you? I have
:47:18. > :47:21.already apologised for that but I would say that all parties have
:47:22. > :47:25.divisions. The Parliamentary Labour Party has the no-confidence vote in
:47:26. > :47:29.its leader. The Conservative Party is heavily split on Brexit and the
:47:30. > :47:33.terms and the Liberal Democrats, their chief concern seems to be to
:47:34. > :47:38.overturn the referendum result. We have all have some problems but from
:47:39. > :47:41.Monday onwards, it is a new chapter. It will be interesting to discover
:47:42. > :47:44.whether having a new leader allows you to come up with a plan for
:47:45. > :47:48.Brexit, because so far what you have done in Ukip is campaign the
:47:49. > :47:51.something which is a bit like going out for a walk without any clue
:47:52. > :47:56.where you are going. When the country voted, it didn't know what
:47:57. > :48:02.it was voting for. You told people on the sides of lorries there would
:48:03. > :48:08.be 350 million is a week... That was our campaign, we were excluded. It
:48:09. > :48:12.was the Mark Rowley campaign, where people voted on information that
:48:13. > :48:17.wasn't accurate. This is one we will never be able to reverse -- the
:48:18. > :48:21.Lives campaign. John Major and Tony Blair are now saying it could be
:48:22. > :48:24.reasonable to have a second referendum or at least a vote on
:48:25. > :48:29.what negotiations are, would you support that? What I would support
:48:30. > :48:33.is as having a clue from the Government as to what the plan is.
:48:34. > :48:38.The single market, the customs union, completely ad? What are they
:48:39. > :48:41.going to do about the trading rules between the country? We don't have a
:48:42. > :48:48.single clue. I think other leaders have been quite right to weigh in
:48:49. > :48:51.and say we need to talk about this. It should be scrutinised properly
:48:52. > :48:59.because we will never be able to reverse this. There is and I am
:49:00. > :49:02.determination to unpick the referendum result and at the risk of
:49:03. > :49:08.being repetitive, the big advantage of staying in the single market is
:49:09. > :49:13.that less than 15% of the British market is accounted for -- the
:49:14. > :49:19.disadvantage. I wish the point had been made. We could be like
:49:20. > :49:24.Beauvais, we heard a million times, and Norway is in the single market
:49:25. > :49:29.-- like Norway. No one who knows anything about it has seriously put
:49:30. > :49:32.forward the Norway option. There are various different ways of managing
:49:33. > :49:36.it and I come back to a point I made earlier on, the three biggest
:49:37. > :49:40.exporters to the European Union, Russia, China and the United States,
:49:41. > :49:44.have access to the single market and do not have trade agreements. And
:49:45. > :49:53.they have do pay for it, that's the point. You know full well they do.
:49:54. > :50:04.We are paying up already more in... I must just make this point we are
:50:05. > :50:08.already paying more... In payments to the EU... Let me ask you this,
:50:09. > :50:12.you are supporting Mr Nuttall for the leadership of Ukip, is that
:50:13. > :50:19.right? I have put out a statement to that effect. What is interesting,
:50:20. > :50:23.Thangam Debbonaire, Ukip did get an enormous victory with the
:50:24. > :50:27.referendum, Mr Trump has won in the United States, why are people going
:50:28. > :50:32.to -- why aren't people going to parties like yours when they are
:50:33. > :50:38.disaffected? That is a good question. We need another General
:50:39. > :50:40.Election until we can get a decent answer to that question. People are
:50:41. > :50:44.asking all sorts of really interesting questions. They want to
:50:45. > :50:49.know what public services... They are saying Labour isn't the answer.
:50:50. > :50:53.It is varying, we have won various council elections, we won the
:50:54. > :50:57.control of the Council and a mayor, control of the Council and a mayor,
:50:58. > :51:01.so in Bristol, people have voting Labour. OK, we will leave it there.
:51:02. > :51:05.Thank you. Now, it is costing two Thank you. Now, it is costing two
:51:06. > :51:09.thirds the price of a nuclear power station that has had none of the
:51:10. > :51:13.attention. The Government's roll-out of smart meters to every home in
:51:14. > :51:17.Britain as sale by almost unnoticed but like kinky, it is another
:51:18. > :51:23.example of a flagship energy scheme buffeted by technical problems and
:51:24. > :51:25.delays. On this quiet Bristol Street,
:51:26. > :51:30.digital revolution is about to take place. I have come to install your
:51:31. > :51:35.gas and electricity meters for you today. This is a scene the
:51:36. > :51:41.Government wants repeated on every doorstep. Energy suppliers offering
:51:42. > :51:45.customers a smart meter. I wanted to be more aware of my costings, I am a
:51:46. > :51:50.single mum, I have three girls and lots of appliances, just to see
:51:51. > :51:54.where my money is going each month. After an hour's work in the garage,
:51:55. > :51:57.the new meter is installed. It will transmit how much gas and
:51:58. > :52:02.electricity she uses back to the supplier every half an hour. It
:52:03. > :52:05.means accurate bills and an end to meter readings. Mum of three Kelly
:52:06. > :52:13.now has new instructions for her daughters. Lights off, charges
:52:14. > :52:16.unplugged in the evening, mummy is watching the smart meter. Just
:52:17. > :52:20.having this new gadget in the home is close to gently remind you to use
:52:21. > :52:24.less. Studies show consumption of gas and electricity can drop by
:52:25. > :52:30.average of ?33 per year, but all of average of ?33 per year, but all of
:52:31. > :52:32.that could be wiped out in the short term if the cost of installing them
:52:33. > :52:38.is passed on from suppliers through bills. Currently, most of our homes
:52:39. > :52:42.electricity meters... It was a electricity meters... It was a
:52:43. > :52:46.Conservative manifesto pledge that everyone should be offered a smart
:52:47. > :52:52.meter by 2020. Only 7% of homes have one now. Sam Smith another broken
:52:53. > :52:57.promise. So we ask the advice of two suppliers from Bristol. There still
:52:58. > :53:01.remains challenges in rolling out smart meters to every home, some
:53:02. > :53:05.technology barrows that we need to as an industry overcome. It is
:53:06. > :53:10.possible but exceptionally challenging. The programme was
:53:11. > :53:16.initially delayed at the national level. You are using business big
:53:17. > :53:20.for it is not possible. It is very challenging but it is a mighty
:53:21. > :53:24.target. Experts at GCHQ Cheltenham have been called in to ensure that
:53:25. > :53:29.smart meters are safe from hackers and cyber security isn't the only
:53:30. > :53:33.concern. I like to think of it as the biggest infrastructure project
:53:34. > :53:37.is two thirds the size of Hinkley is two thirds the size of Hinkley
:53:38. > :53:43.point, so an initial capital cost of some ?11 billion but some people may
:53:44. > :53:49.think it will grow to 14 billions. It is not the cost of the programme,
:53:50. > :53:53.it is the complexity. Whether or not you by the Government argument over
:53:54. > :53:55.smart meters, the truth is it is the start of something much bigger.
:53:56. > :54:00.Washing machines that turn themselves on when they are full,
:54:01. > :54:04.fridge freezers that order your shopping. This is what they call the
:54:05. > :54:08.Internet of things and all of our homes are set to become much
:54:09. > :54:10.smarter. To take a sneak glimpse into the future, I was invited
:54:11. > :54:21.inside Bristol's data Dome. Here, they lay out the possibilities
:54:22. > :54:26.of what all this data from our new gadgetry really means. For
:54:27. > :54:29.politicians, there is now a raft of new ways of knowing what it
:54:30. > :54:34.selectors are up to as they try to plan for the future.
:54:35. > :54:38.Smart meters are just another example of connecting more and more
:54:39. > :54:44.things around us up to the Internet. For example, your feet bit on your
:54:45. > :54:48.hand is a thing that takes data, your car is sending data to the
:54:49. > :54:53.Internet, your house can send energy data or other data and there are
:54:54. > :54:59.loads of examples, both from medicine and transport and energy,
:55:00. > :55:05.and this isn't a bad thing, but how we manage all this data is a big
:55:06. > :55:08.question for us. So one small step for a homeowner, one giant leap for
:55:09. > :55:14.the energy industry and, who knows where we might end up?
:55:15. > :55:21.It is all very well but what about an iron that can iron your shirts?
:55:22. > :55:28.Are you two going to get one? I am going to get one, I have not been
:55:29. > :55:32.offered one. I think it is gigantically expensive. As the man
:55:33. > :55:37.on the film said, estimated at 11 billion, it is much more likely to
:55:38. > :55:40.be 15 billion and there is a credible estimate published in the
:55:41. > :55:47.Daily Telegraph saying the most it is going to save is maybe ?11 per
:55:48. > :55:50.year. That is per household. And I think there are very, very serious
:55:51. > :55:53.questions about whether this is the right thing we should be doing with
:55:54. > :55:58.that amount of money. There are lots of other infrastructure problems in
:55:59. > :56:01.the country. I agree there are a lot of infrastructure problems if we are
:56:02. > :56:05.going to compete on the global market to sort out but I think smart
:56:06. > :56:08.meters, it is a good idea to give people information about how they
:56:09. > :56:12.can use electricity and other fuels more efficiently but this project is
:56:13. > :56:17.a good example of the Government going wrong. Three years, it is
:56:18. > :56:21.overdue by three years. We haven't of the costs are going about the
:56:22. > :56:24.benefits are going down so we have been called for an urgent pause and
:56:25. > :56:27.review so we can see if the project needs more tweaking, if it is worth
:56:28. > :56:31.continuing with and we need to work out what is the best way to help
:56:32. > :56:35.people to be more energy-efficient and at the moment, this isn't
:56:36. > :56:39.working. They have offered me one and coming in a couple of weeks to
:56:40. > :56:42.fit it. It is a 90 minute appointment, so you can imagine what
:56:43. > :56:45.that is going to be across the country if every single person gets
:56:46. > :56:50.this. But I shall be looking and saying, that has got go off. Big
:56:51. > :56:54.projects were big investments and we have a huge problem on our hands,
:56:55. > :56:58.climate change, one of the clear and present dangers we are not facing up
:56:59. > :57:04.to enough in this country. Donald Trump doesn't think that, what about
:57:05. > :57:07.Ukip, climate change? We are very sceptical about climate change and
:57:08. > :57:14.we have to be very, very careful with climate change in that it is
:57:15. > :57:18.not just used as an argument to push through a lot of unnecessary, job
:57:19. > :57:22.destroying, wealth destroying regulations and that very much seems
:57:23. > :57:29.to be... Using energy efficiently is a good idea. Climate change is a
:57:30. > :57:35.clear and present danger. Being a denier is very last century. No one
:57:36. > :57:42.has ever been accusing me of being 21st century before. We are all in
:57:43. > :57:49.favour of energy efficiency and ensure elation... Insulation is one
:57:50. > :57:52.way of using energy. It is free to the consumer at the point of
:57:53. > :57:58.delivery, if you like, but we all have to pay for it, a couple of
:57:59. > :58:02.hundred pounds on our bills a year, two thirds the cost of Hinkley, you
:58:03. > :58:05.must have some doubts? That is why I have a problem at the moment, the
:58:06. > :58:10.Government's own report, which they sneaked out during Trump week hoping
:58:11. > :58:13.nobody would notice, it's spotted just that, the cost benefit ratio
:58:14. > :58:18.isn't working. There is a lot of work to do, we cannot carry on as we
:58:19. > :58:21.are with the current role of the programme, the smart meters will not
:58:22. > :58:26.work with the new technology. I will turn the lights out on that
:58:27. > :58:32.particular discussion. Time for a canter through the west's political
:58:33. > :58:37.week in 60 seconds. On Tuesday, the west's MPs let off
:58:38. > :58:41.steam at a debate about trains. It was called by Charlotte Leslie, who
:58:42. > :58:45.was concerned about the electrification of the great Western
:58:46. > :58:49.mainline being delayed. This is about the south-west being sick of
:58:50. > :58:51.being the poor relation in our nation's transport projects while
:58:52. > :58:54.other high-speed projects go roaring on.
:58:55. > :58:57.The leader of Somerset County Council labelled the Chancellor's
:58:58. > :59:01.Autumn Statement and missed opportunity. He had wanted extra
:59:02. > :59:07.funds for social care. Things will start to fall down, hopefully not in
:59:08. > :59:10.Somerset, but in other areas of the country, services are really
:59:11. > :59:13.struggling. But the Chancellor did grant the Wellington Monument in
:59:14. > :59:16.Somerset million pounds for restoration work. Wheelchair
:59:17. > :59:24.Ramblers will also receive a million, the money coming from
:59:25. > :59:28.banking fines. -- Wiltshire air. And many to keep the seagull population
:59:29. > :59:33.under control. The birds' aggressive behaviour has been upsetting local
:59:34. > :59:39.residents. They take your fish and chips.
:59:40. > :59:45.Thangam Debbonaire, you are in that debate about electrification, what
:59:46. > :59:48.do you think of the delay? Well, I am furious, actually. They are all
:59:49. > :59:52.sorts of myths being put about about the postponement, postponing it for
:59:53. > :59:56.many years. We don't know when it will come back and it is a missed
:59:57. > :59:59.opportunity but it is typical of this Government, which this week has
:00:00. > :00:04.failed to deal with the clear and present danger we are in with
:00:05. > :00:07.Brexit, the ?122 billion black hole in our finances and where is ara
:00:08. > :00:15.electrification, it is a small part of it. It is all money, I suppose.
:00:16. > :00:18.William, Europe is electrified. We should cancel high-speed rail link
:00:19. > :00:24.two, in which billions have been spent already and nothing to show
:00:25. > :00:27.for it and electrified line all the way to Penzance. That is what would
:00:28. > :00:33.be in the interest of the south-west and the country as a whole. It is
:00:34. > :00:38.down to money, though. John McDonnell wants to spend 500 billion
:00:39. > :00:41.on investment. What he wants a slightly more complicated than that.
:00:42. > :00:47.To conjugated to go into right now but the most important thing is we
:00:48. > :00:52.need to sort out investment and skills in the 21st century. And that
:00:53. > :00:55.is we have time for. My thanks to my we will see you again at the same
:00:56. > :01:00.time next week, have got to make sure London is
:01:01. > :01:06.open. Thank you. Andrew, back to you.
:01:07. > :01:08.Is Theresa May serious about curbing executive pay?
:01:09. > :01:12.Who will be crowned Nigel Farage's successor as Ukip leader?
:01:13. > :01:17.And can the Lib Dems pull off a by-election upset in Richmond?
:01:18. > :01:42.So,,, on pay talk about the executive of what executives get
:01:43. > :01:44.compared to the average worker in the company, giving shareholders
:01:45. > :01:48.real power to vote down pay rises if they don't like them, which is
:01:49. > :01:58.pretty much what Ed Miliband proposed in the general election in
:01:59. > :02:01.2015. Is she serious about this? She is very serious, and the Tory party
:02:02. > :02:05.probably does owe Ed Miliband an apology for trashing his ideas and
:02:06. > :02:09.2015 and then putting them all up for votes in November 20 16. She is
:02:10. > :02:12.very serious, and this all comes back to her desperate fear that
:02:13. > :02:19.unless capitalism reforms itself and becomes more acceptable to the just
:02:20. > :02:22.about managing or even 78% of the country who are not earning vast
:02:23. > :02:27.wealth at anywhere near the figures you see in the City, serious things
:02:28. > :02:32.will happen and the political sense of trust will implode. She has
:02:33. > :02:35.already been bartered down by her own Cabinet on this. She wanted to
:02:36. > :02:42.go further and make workers on the board mandatory. They have managed
:02:43. > :02:47.to stop that. What will her fallback position be on workers on the board
:02:48. > :02:53.if she is not able to get it into some claw? We would like to have
:02:54. > :02:58.workers on the board, but whatever they do on the board there will have
:02:59. > :03:02.no voting powers on the board. When you look at what was leaked out over
:03:03. > :03:07.the weekend, that we should know the ratio of the top to the average and
:03:08. > :03:12.that shareholders who own the company should determine, in the
:03:13. > :03:17.end, the highest-paid salaries, you kind of think, what could the
:03:18. > :03:24.possible objection be to any of that? Two things. One, I agree with
:03:25. > :03:29.Tom that she is deadly serious about this agenda and it comes under the
:03:30. > :03:33.banner, that sentence in the party conference speech about "It's time
:03:34. > :03:38.to focus on the good that government can do". She is by instinct more of
:03:39. > :03:42.an interventionist than Cameron and Osborne. But she is incredibly
:03:43. > :03:46.cautious, whether it is through the internal constraints of opposition
:03:47. > :03:53.within Cabinet, or her own small C Conservative caution in implementing
:03:54. > :03:56.this stuff. Part of the problem is the practicalities. George Osborne
:03:57. > :03:59.commission will Hutton to do a report which came out with similar
:04:00. > :04:04.proposals, which were never implemented. It is quite hard to
:04:05. > :04:09.enforce. It will antagonise business leaders when she's to woo them again
:04:10. > :04:14.in this Brexit furore. So there are problems with it. And judging by
:04:15. > :04:19.what has happened so far, my guess is that the aim will be genuinely
:04:20. > :04:21.bold and interesting, and the implementation incredibly cautious.
:04:22. > :04:28.Does it matter if she annoys some business leaders? Isn't that part of
:04:29. > :04:33.her brand? Will there be problems on the Tory backbenches with it? I
:04:34. > :04:35.think there will be and I think it does matter at this sensitive time
:04:36. > :04:41.for when we are positioning ourselves as a country and whether
:04:42. > :04:43.we are going to brand ourselves as a great city of business, implementing
:04:44. > :04:48.quite interventionist policies. Any suggestion that the government can
:04:49. > :04:52.control how much the top earners get, I think would be received in a
:04:53. > :04:55.hostile way. What would be wrong with the shareholders, who own the
:04:56. > :05:00.company, determining the pay of the higher hands, the executives?
:05:01. > :05:04.Morally, you can absolutely make that argument but to business
:05:05. > :05:09.leaders, they will not like it. Ultimately, this will not come down
:05:10. > :05:12.to more than a row of beans. There was a huge debate about whether
:05:13. > :05:18.there should be quotas of women on boards. In the end, that never
:05:19. > :05:23.happened. All we get is figures. But quotas of women, for which there is
:05:24. > :05:27.a case and a case against too, that was a government mandate. This is
:05:28. > :05:30.not, this is simply empowering shareholders who own the company to
:05:31. > :05:39.determine the pay of the people they hire. There is a strong moral
:05:40. > :05:44.argument for it. Strong economic argument. But the Tory backbenchers
:05:45. > :05:47.will not like this. The downside is that this is a world where companies
:05:48. > :05:51.are thinking about upping sticks to Europe. No, they say they are
:05:52. > :05:59.thinking of that. Not one has done it yet. Others have made massive
:06:00. > :06:04.investments in this country. But is it not an incentive for those making
:06:05. > :06:11.these threats to actually do it? In Europe, bankers' pay is now mandated
:06:12. > :06:16.by Brussels. It is a vivid way of showing you are addressing the issue
:06:17. > :06:24.of inequality. I think she will go with it, but let's move on to Ukip.
:06:25. > :06:28.I think we will get the result tomorrow. There are the top three
:06:29. > :06:34.candidates. Paul Nuttall, Suzanne Evans and on my right, John Reid
:06:35. > :06:40.Evans. One of them will be the next leader. Who is going to win? It is
:06:41. > :06:44.widely predicted to be Paul Nuttall and is probably the outcome that the
:06:45. > :06:47.Labour Party fears most. Paul Nuttall is a very effective
:06:48. > :06:54.communicator. He is not a household name, far from it, but people will
:06:55. > :06:58.begin to learn more about him and find that he is actually quite a
:06:59. > :07:04.strong leader. Can people Ukip together again after this shambolic
:07:05. > :07:10.period since the referendum? If anyone can, he can. And his brand of
:07:11. > :07:16.working collar, Northern Ukip is the thing that will work for them. Do
:07:17. > :07:20.you think he is the favourite? It would be amazing if he doesn't win.
:07:21. > :07:25.His greatest problem will be getting Nigel Farage off his back. He is
:07:26. > :07:32.going on a speaking tour of North America. A long speaking tour. Ukip
:07:33. > :07:36.won this EU referendum. They had the chance to hoover up these
:07:37. > :07:40.discontented Labour voters in the north, and all he has done is
:07:41. > :07:44.associated with Ukip with Farage. But Nigel Farage is fed up of Ukip
:07:45. > :07:50.and will be glad to be hands of it. The bigger problem is money. If it
:07:51. > :07:55.is Paul Nuttall, and we don't know the results yet, but he is the
:07:56. > :07:59.favourite, if it is him, I would suggest that that is the result
:08:00. > :08:03.Labour is frightened of most. To be honest, I think they are frightened
:08:04. > :08:08.of Ukip whatever the result. Possibly with good cause. The reason
:08:09. > :08:13.I qualify that is that what you call a shambles over the summer has been
:08:14. > :08:18.something that goes beyond Monty Python in its absurdity and madness.
:08:19. > :08:24.That calls into question whether it can function as a political party
:08:25. > :08:30.when you have what has gone on. The number of leaders itself has been an
:08:31. > :08:36.act of madness. In a context which should be fantastic for them. They
:08:37. > :08:39.have won a referendum. There is a debate about what form Brexit should
:08:40. > :08:44.take, it is a dream for them, and they have gone bonkers. If he can
:08:45. > :08:46.turn it around, I agree that he is a powerful media communicator, and
:08:47. > :08:52.then it is a threat to Labour. But he has got to show that first.
:08:53. > :08:57.Indeed. The by-election in Richmond in south-west London, called by Zac
:08:58. > :09:01.Goldsmith over Heathrow. Has it turned out to be a by-election about
:09:02. > :09:07.Heathrow, or has it turned into a by-election, which is what the Lib
:09:08. > :09:11.Dems wanted, about Brexit? We will know on Thursday. If the Lib Dems
:09:12. > :09:14.win, they will turn it into an EU referendum. It seems incredibly
:09:15. > :09:19.close now. The Lib Dems are swamping Richmond. They had 1000 activists
:09:20. > :09:24.there yesterday. That is getting on for 100th of the population of the
:09:25. > :09:28.place! If the Lib Dems don't manage to win on Thursday and don't manage
:09:29. > :09:31.to turn it into an EU referendum despite all their efforts, it will
:09:32. > :09:40.probably be a disaster for the party. What do you hear, Isabel? I
:09:41. > :09:44.hear that the Lib Dems have absolutely swamped the constituency,
:09:45. > :09:49.but this may backfire. I saw a bit of this myself, living in Witney,
:09:50. > :09:55.when the Lib Dems also swamped and people began to get fed up of their
:09:56. > :09:59.aggressive tactics. I understand that Zac Goldsmith is cautiously
:10:00. > :10:08.optimistic that he will pull this one off. Quick stab at the result? I
:10:09. > :10:12.don't know. But we are entering a period when by-elections are
:10:13. > :10:16.acquiring significant again. If the Lib Dems were to make a game, it
:10:17. > :10:22.would breathe life into that near moribund party like nothing else.
:10:23. > :10:28.Similarly, other by-elections in this shapeless political world we
:10:29. > :10:30.are in are going to become significant. We don't know if we are
:10:31. > :10:33.covering it live on Thursday night yet because we have to find at the
:10:34. > :10:40.time they are going to declare. Richmond are quite late in
:10:41. > :10:45.declaring, but if it is in the early hours, that is fine. If it is on
:10:46. > :10:49.breakfast television, they be not. I want to show you this. Michael Gove
:10:50. > :10:55.was on the Andrew Marr Show this morning. In the now notorious
:10:56. > :10:58.comment that I made, I was actually cut off in midstream, as politicians
:10:59. > :11:03.often. The point I made was not that all experts are that is nonsense.
:11:04. > :11:11.Expert engineers, doctors and physicists are not wrong. But there
:11:12. > :11:13.is a subclass of experts, particularly social scientists, who
:11:14. > :11:18.have to reflect on some of the mistakes they have made. And the
:11:19. > :11:22.recession, which was predicted that we would have if we voted to leave,
:11:23. > :11:29.has gone like a puff of smoke. So economic experts, he talks about.
:11:30. > :11:32.The Chancellor has based all of his forward predictions in this Autumn
:11:33. > :11:39.Statement on the economic expert forecasters. The Office for Budget
:11:40. > :11:44.Responsibility has said it is 50-50, which is the toss of a coin. But
:11:45. > :11:50.what was he supposed to do? You would ideally have to have a Budget
:11:51. > :11:58.that had several sets of scenarios, and that is impossible. Crystal ball
:11:59. > :12:02.territory. But you do wonder if governments are right to do so much
:12:03. > :12:06.of their fiscal projections on the basis of forecasts which turn out to
:12:07. > :12:10.be wrong. They have nothing else to go on. The Treasury forecast is to
:12:11. > :12:16.be wrong. No doubt the OBR forecast will prove not to be exact. As you
:12:17. > :12:19.say, they admitted that they are navigating through fog at the
:12:20. > :12:23.moment. But he also added that it was fog caused by Brexit. So Brexit,
:12:24. > :12:31.even if you accept that these forecasts might be wrong, is causing
:12:32. > :12:37.such a level of uncertainty. He put the figure at 60 billion. That could
:12:38. > :12:45.come to haunt him. He hasn't got a clue. He admitted it. He said,
:12:46. > :12:48.Parliament mandates me to come up with something, so I am going to
:12:49. > :12:54.give you a number. But I wouldn't trust it if I were you, he basically
:12:55. > :12:57.said. I agree with you. The man who borrowed 122 billion more off the
:12:58. > :13:00.back of a coin toss was Philip Hammond. It begs the question, what
:13:01. > :13:04.does that say about the confidence Philip Hammond has in his own
:13:05. > :13:11.government's renegotiation? Not a huge amount. I agree. Philip Hammond
:13:12. > :13:15.quoted the OBR figures. He basically said, this is uncertain and it looks
:13:16. > :13:22.bad, and on we go with it. It is a very interesting situation, he said.
:13:23. > :13:25.He was for Remain and he works in a department which regards it as a
:13:26. > :13:32.disaster, whatever everyone else thinks. I have just been told we are
:13:33. > :13:34.covering the by-election. We are part of the constitution.
:13:35. > :13:36.Jo Coburn will have more Daily Politics tomorrow
:13:37. > :13:40.And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11.
:13:41. > :14:14.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:15. > :14:18.to signify the Africans who were here.
:14:19. > :14:44.The story of Henry VIII and his six wives
:14:45. > :14:54.and into the private lives of Henry's six wives.
:14:55. > :15:04.My heart is filled with sorrow. I am not a fool.
:15:05. > :15:06.Something is happening to crime fiction.
:15:07. > :15:09.It's getting darker, bloodier, more real
:15:10. > :15:12.and now more likely to be written by women.
:15:13. > :15:41.That's my job, really - killing people for fun and profit.
:15:42. > :15:45.Well, to the east of England, actually, to Peterborough,