:00:37. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.A row has broken out between Number Ten and former
:00:44. > :00:47.Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,
:00:48. > :00:51.the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.
:00:52. > :00:53.I feel as though I'm one of the people that
:00:54. > :00:57.If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,
:00:58. > :01:09.It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult
:01:10. > :01:12.for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest
:01:13. > :01:15.Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.
:01:16. > :01:17.Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,
:01:18. > :01:19.but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance
:01:20. > :01:24.Corbynite Ken Livingstone and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie
:01:25. > :01:27.And in the West, the library is on borrowed time.
:01:28. > :01:29.Ten Swindon branches have had their funding removed as
:01:30. > :01:48.the council struggles to balance its books.
:01:49. > :01:52.think of it as an early Christmas present from us.
:01:53. > :01:53.We guarantee you won't be disappointed.
:01:54. > :01:55.And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined
:01:56. > :01:57.by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.
:01:58. > :02:00.It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.
:02:01. > :02:07.So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some
:02:08. > :02:13.of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.
:02:14. > :02:19.But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this
:02:20. > :02:22.morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts
:02:23. > :02:24.from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning
:02:25. > :02:30.the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.
:02:31. > :02:34.Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,
:02:35. > :02:37.and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation
:02:38. > :02:43.She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning
:02:44. > :02:50.Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair
:02:51. > :02:56.She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart
:02:57. > :03:06.Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week
:03:07. > :03:10.But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary
:03:11. > :03:12.argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief
:03:13. > :03:21.She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing
:03:22. > :03:28.for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation
:03:29. > :03:33.and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".
:03:34. > :03:35.The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying
:03:36. > :03:38."If you don't like something I have said or done, please
:03:39. > :03:52.If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."
:03:53. > :03:57.Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.
:03:58. > :04:01.And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see
:04:02. > :04:03.in our film shortly, has now been formally banned
:04:04. > :04:20.So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying
:04:21. > :04:23.tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says
:04:24. > :04:27.something about British politics today, that this is the most
:04:28. > :04:30.important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are
:04:31. > :04:33.not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they
:04:34. > :04:38.don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being
:04:39. > :04:43.spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street
:04:44. > :04:46.with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet
:04:47. > :04:54.Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row
:04:55. > :04:59.over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,
:05:00. > :05:06.she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten
:05:07. > :05:14.you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the
:05:15. > :05:18.high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.
:05:19. > :05:24.You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky
:05:25. > :05:30.Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul
:05:31. > :05:35.as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.
:05:36. > :05:39.Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they
:05:40. > :05:44.are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in
:05:45. > :05:51.which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's
:05:52. > :05:55.entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is
:05:56. > :05:59.genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she
:06:00. > :06:03.chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that
:06:04. > :06:08.journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life
:06:09. > :06:12.works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the
:06:13. > :06:16.Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney
:06:17. > :06:21.and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government
:06:22. > :06:25.department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold
:06:26. > :06:28.together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the
:06:29. > :06:34.whole Government like one department. This is just the start,
:06:35. > :06:40.Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,
:06:41. > :06:45.The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most
:06:46. > :06:49.to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if
:06:50. > :06:54.it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was
:06:55. > :07:00.split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used
:07:01. > :07:05.to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down
:07:06. > :07:08.the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert
:07:09. > :07:13.the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a
:07:14. > :07:16.self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it
:07:17. > :07:22.comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do
:07:23. > :07:28.you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own
:07:29. > :07:32.wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is
:07:33. > :07:35.that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen
:07:36. > :07:42.polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,
:07:43. > :07:46.a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any
:07:47. > :07:49.money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself
:07:50. > :07:57.comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted
:07:58. > :08:00.with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most
:08:01. > :08:06.exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that
:08:07. > :08:11.British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain
:08:12. > :08:18.lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at
:08:19. > :08:22.being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split
:08:23. > :08:25.between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that
:08:26. > :08:31.sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the
:08:32. > :08:35.1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.
:08:36. > :08:39.The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of
:08:40. > :08:45.pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.
:08:46. > :08:47.So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price
:08:48. > :08:49.of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.
:08:50. > :08:52.And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire
:08:53. > :08:54.the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say
:08:55. > :08:57.about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead
:08:58. > :08:58.of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,
:08:59. > :09:00.it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.
:09:01. > :09:10.While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated
:09:11. > :09:12.Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting
:09:13. > :09:15.on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.
:09:16. > :09:17.Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government
:09:18. > :09:19.basically got its way, but it did provide a platform
:09:20. > :09:25.for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,
:09:26. > :09:34.We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level
:09:35. > :09:36.of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners
:09:37. > :09:40.that want to thwart the will of the people,
:09:41. > :09:44.go back on it and that we don't accept the result.
:09:45. > :09:49.I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people
:09:50. > :09:53.It's not good enough that these things are dragged
:09:54. > :09:54.out of the Government by opposition day motions.
:09:55. > :09:57.I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking
:09:58. > :10:02.Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents
:10:03. > :10:10.I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head
:10:11. > :10:13.above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,
:10:14. > :10:16.you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.
:10:17. > :10:18.I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank
:10:19. > :10:21.you for what you are doing, party members around
:10:22. > :10:23.the country saying thank you for what you are doing
:10:24. > :10:27.and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.
:10:28. > :10:29.I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,
:10:30. > :10:32.you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak
:10:33. > :10:34.opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised
:10:35. > :10:42.on before we embark on such a huge issue.
:10:43. > :10:44.Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's
:10:45. > :10:48.side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that
:10:49. > :10:50.if you don't stand up for what you believe in,
:10:51. > :10:56.I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.
:10:57. > :10:59.That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local
:11:00. > :11:01.party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses
:11:02. > :11:07.Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association
:11:08. > :11:09.she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support
:11:10. > :11:12.the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that
:11:13. > :11:15.and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people
:11:16. > :11:17.who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government
:11:18. > :11:21.The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP
:11:22. > :11:23.and we want to see a Conservative government being
:11:24. > :11:31.I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get
:11:32. > :11:34.on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,
:11:35. > :11:37.Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see
:11:38. > :11:39.how her stance is going down with the voters.
:11:40. > :11:41.If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does
:11:42. > :11:47.Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,
:11:48. > :11:50.especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU
:11:51. > :11:53.so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.
:11:54. > :11:54.She should stick for what she believes in,
:11:55. > :11:57.but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...
:11:58. > :12:13.She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted
:12:14. > :12:16.to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,
:12:17. > :12:17.depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.
:12:18. > :12:23.Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street
:12:24. > :12:24.this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.
:12:25. > :12:33.Although now we know not everyone is invited.
:12:34. > :12:39.And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday
:12:40. > :12:42.was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted
:12:43. > :12:44.against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end
:12:45. > :12:48.of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.
:12:49. > :12:53.Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David
:12:54. > :12:59.Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new
:13:00. > :13:02.leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to
:13:03. > :13:09.deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't
:13:10. > :13:14.speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious
:13:15. > :13:19.interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but
:13:20. > :13:23.somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman
:13:24. > :13:26.which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and
:13:27. > :13:32.said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger
:13:33. > :13:38.ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only
:13:39. > :13:40.serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a
:13:41. > :13:44.difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,
:13:45. > :13:49.your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more
:13:50. > :13:55.in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it
:13:56. > :13:59.not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not
:14:00. > :14:03.Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,
:14:04. > :14:06.she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting
:14:07. > :14:09.out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for
:14:10. > :14:14.being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it
:14:15. > :14:18.wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the
:14:19. > :14:22.national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid
:14:23. > :14:27.throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and
:14:28. > :14:30.my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party
:14:31. > :14:35.throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion
:14:36. > :14:40.on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to
:14:41. > :14:44.Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my
:14:45. > :14:49.reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national
:14:50. > :14:56.interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of
:14:57. > :15:01.course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you
:15:02. > :15:08.think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it
:15:09. > :15:11.40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you
:15:12. > :15:14.have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,
:15:15. > :15:18.they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have
:15:19. > :15:30.been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.
:15:31. > :15:37.That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are
:15:38. > :15:43.living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and
:15:44. > :15:47.the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's
:15:48. > :15:51.trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we
:15:52. > :15:56.need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a
:15:57. > :16:00.leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis
:16:01. > :16:03.upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the
:16:04. > :16:08.others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than
:16:09. > :16:14.any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.
:16:15. > :16:18.What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our
:16:19. > :16:28.children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need
:16:29. > :16:34.Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of
:16:35. > :16:39.negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to
:16:40. > :16:42.run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted
:16:43. > :16:48.in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister
:16:49. > :16:52.sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that
:16:53. > :16:56.your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons
:16:57. > :17:00.think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum
:17:01. > :17:05.campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were
:17:06. > :17:11.completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.
:17:12. > :17:16.Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I
:17:17. > :17:19.have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so
:17:20. > :17:25.just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a
:17:26. > :17:30.minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan
:17:31. > :17:33.Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with
:17:34. > :17:37.that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were
:17:38. > :17:43.going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and
:17:44. > :17:51.tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How
:17:52. > :17:59.long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will
:18:00. > :18:05.survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a
:18:06. > :18:11.heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you
:18:12. > :18:18.think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has
:18:19. > :18:22.always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in
:18:23. > :18:29.a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does
:18:30. > :18:33.he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to
:18:34. > :18:37.forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there
:18:38. > :18:45.will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten
:18:46. > :18:48.years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of
:18:49. > :18:53.his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward
:18:54. > :18:58.is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which
:18:59. > :19:02.all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet
:19:03. > :19:10.papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get
:19:11. > :19:13.down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry
:19:14. > :19:21.to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film
:19:22. > :19:27.that a number of constituency members in those areas which are
:19:28. > :19:33.strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was
:19:34. > :19:37.Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.
:19:38. > :19:43.What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects
:19:44. > :19:49.their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very
:19:50. > :19:57.grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because
:19:58. > :20:02.you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great
:20:03. > :20:06.fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on
:20:07. > :20:10.everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've
:20:11. > :20:14.always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying
:20:15. > :20:22.what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and
:20:23. > :20:26.then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised
:20:27. > :20:30.if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the
:20:31. > :20:38.policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say
:20:39. > :20:43.you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing
:20:44. > :20:48.Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't
:20:49. > :20:51.been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my
:20:52. > :20:58.colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that
:20:59. > :21:05.haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have
:21:06. > :21:09.been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well
:21:10. > :21:12.with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's
:21:13. > :21:18.much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street
:21:19. > :21:23.has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm
:21:24. > :21:27.glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what
:21:28. > :21:32.they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm
:21:33. > :21:38.not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still
:21:39. > :21:49.have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.
:21:50. > :21:56.That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really
:21:57. > :22:02.grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will
:22:03. > :22:06.have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument
:22:07. > :22:14.about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to
:22:15. > :22:21.keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be
:22:22. > :22:27.deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's
:22:28. > :22:32.relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this
:22:33. > :22:36.Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you
:22:37. > :22:37.for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever
:22:38. > :22:41.criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn
:22:42. > :22:43.against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,
:22:44. > :22:46.but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,
:22:47. > :22:48.or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result
:22:49. > :22:52.for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping
:22:53. > :22:54.for an early Christmas present at this week's
:22:55. > :22:56.contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,
:22:57. > :23:05.a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,
:23:06. > :23:07.there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second
:23:08. > :23:11.in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better
:23:12. > :23:14.performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,
:23:15. > :23:18.where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting
:23:19. > :23:20.fewer voters than the reported number of local
:23:21. > :23:24.Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this
:23:25. > :23:29.week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major
:23:30. > :23:34.issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity
:23:35. > :23:46.is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers
:23:47. > :23:49.were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote
:23:50. > :23:58.against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU
:23:59. > :24:01.by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've
:24:02. > :24:04.spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs
:24:05. > :24:07.the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,
:24:08. > :24:09.or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,
:24:10. > :24:13.eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,
:24:14. > :24:15.a national poll released on Friday put Labour
:24:16. > :24:18.at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy
:24:19. > :24:24.for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories
:24:25. > :24:27.under his leadership, including a by-election win
:24:28. > :24:29.in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a
:24:30. > :24:35.Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack
:24:36. > :24:39.of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having
:24:40. > :24:42.failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,
:24:43. > :24:52.what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played
:24:53. > :24:57.down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour
:24:58. > :25:01.Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic
:25:02. > :25:05.party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current
:25:06. > :25:09.leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in
:25:10. > :25:13.the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.
:25:14. > :25:15.And we're joined now by the former mayor
:25:16. > :25:17.of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow
:25:18. > :25:25.Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from
:25:26. > :25:30.second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its
:25:31. > :25:37.deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in
:25:38. > :25:45.this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters
:25:46. > :25:52.switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings
:25:53. > :25:57.that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is
:25:58. > :26:01.like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the
:26:02. > :26:11.Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win
:26:12. > :26:14.tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with
:26:15. > :26:20.the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,
:26:21. > :26:24.but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the
:26:25. > :26:29.national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells
:26:30. > :26:33.going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I
:26:34. > :26:38.think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a
:26:39. > :26:41.plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are
:26:42. > :26:47.going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard
:26:48. > :26:53.Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.
:26:54. > :26:58.When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.
:26:59. > :27:05.John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a
:27:06. > :27:10.massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory
:27:11. > :27:15.governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a
:27:16. > :27:19.disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if
:27:20. > :27:24.Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the
:27:25. > :27:29.EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year
:27:30. > :27:34.and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we
:27:35. > :27:40.are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic
:27:41. > :27:43.disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew
:27:44. > :27:48.the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why
:27:49. > :27:54.are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points
:27:55. > :27:58.behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating
:27:59. > :28:04.went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an
:28:05. > :28:08.election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not
:28:09. > :28:13.grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it
:28:14. > :28:17.will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic
:28:18. > :28:23.alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible
:28:24. > :28:28.economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand
:28:29. > :28:31.basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a
:28:32. > :28:39.commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It
:28:40. > :28:42.is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,
:28:43. > :28:48.particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back
:28:49. > :28:53.and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative
:28:54. > :28:57.manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to
:28:58. > :29:00.the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the
:29:01. > :29:07.broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an
:29:08. > :29:11.MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not
:29:12. > :29:16.going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a
:29:17. > :29:19.couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from
:29:20. > :29:25.Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And
:29:26. > :29:31.I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part
:29:32. > :29:37.of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted
:29:38. > :29:42.to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you
:29:43. > :29:46.don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other
:29:47. > :29:54.27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,
:29:55. > :29:56.why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't
:29:57. > :30:07.think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to
:30:08. > :30:11.get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps
:30:12. > :30:17.millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say
:30:18. > :30:21.we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all
:30:22. > :30:26.Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would
:30:27. > :30:30.suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories
:30:31. > :30:35.are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a
:30:36. > :30:39.bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut
:30:40. > :30:44.through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us
:30:45. > :30:50.that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a
:30:51. > :30:55.33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of
:30:56. > :30:58.the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to
:30:59. > :31:06.make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and
:31:07. > :31:12.not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or
:31:13. > :31:22.whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox
:31:23. > :31:26.fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18
:31:27. > :31:33.months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.
:31:34. > :31:36.The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You
:31:37. > :31:39.weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you
:31:40. > :31:43.have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting
:31:44. > :31:48.rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of
:31:49. > :31:51.policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to
:31:52. > :31:57.govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The
:31:58. > :32:02.idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like
:32:03. > :32:06.takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,
:32:07. > :32:11.yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this
:32:12. > :32:19.summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of
:32:20. > :32:23.the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I
:32:24. > :32:29.want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have
:32:30. > :32:33.got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio
:32:34. > :32:39.at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more
:32:40. > :32:43.money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums
:32:44. > :32:48.add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.
:32:49. > :32:53.They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour
:32:54. > :33:02.Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..
:33:03. > :33:05.Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid
:33:06. > :33:12.off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace
:33:13. > :33:16.compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is
:33:17. > :33:21.decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a
:33:22. > :33:25.society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just
:33:26. > :33:27.the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to
:33:28. > :33:31.contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public
:33:32. > :33:36.are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in
:33:37. > :33:40.the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out
:33:41. > :33:46.clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these
:33:47. > :33:54.things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money
:33:55. > :34:00.through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150
:34:01. > :34:06.billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier
:34:07. > :34:10.estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR
:34:11. > :34:16.programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can
:34:17. > :34:22.say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we
:34:23. > :34:26.will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just
:34:27. > :34:32.checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do
:34:33. > :34:35.you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn
:34:36. > :34:41.round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get
:34:42. > :34:44.worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we
:34:45. > :34:49.would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will
:34:50. > :34:55.knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill
:34:56. > :34:58.Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going
:34:59. > :35:01.to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise
:35:02. > :35:06.they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the
:35:07. > :35:11.Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans
:35:12. > :35:17.that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in
:35:18. > :35:21.12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will
:35:22. > :35:28.hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for
:35:29. > :35:33.the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do
:35:34. > :35:38.they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to
:35:39. > :35:43.bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your
:35:44. > :35:49.party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we
:35:50. > :35:52.have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the
:35:53. > :35:56.opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good
:35:57. > :35:59.enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the
:36:00. > :36:04.Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and
:36:05. > :36:08.on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending
:36:09. > :36:12.national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian
:36:13. > :36:17.intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now
:36:18. > :36:22.in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be
:36:23. > :36:26.able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are
:36:27. > :36:30.heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the
:36:31. > :36:34.war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the
:36:35. > :36:37.last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the
:36:38. > :36:43.way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we
:36:44. > :36:46.used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is
:36:47. > :36:49.in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually
:36:50. > :36:54.getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.
:36:55. > :36:58.Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.
:36:59. > :37:01.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:02. > :37:03.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:04. > :37:06.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking
:37:07. > :37:09.about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying
:37:10. > :37:10.off message, again, and the protestors attempting
:37:11. > :37:24.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:37:25. > :37:26.Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics here in the West.
:37:27. > :37:29.Think of us as an oasis of calm away from the stresses
:37:30. > :37:33.Coming up, we'll be looking at the raft of libraries
:37:34. > :37:37.This week, Swindon removed all the funding for two
:37:38. > :37:40.Critics say it's the biggest cut not just in our country,
:37:41. > :37:50.Libraries are fast becoming Theresa May's equivalent
:37:51. > :37:54.You know, this is a short-term economic policy that's
:37:55. > :37:55.giving long-term damage to our children's futures.
:37:56. > :38:05.Now, in the studio this week, we have a legal eagle and eight
:38:06. > :38:08.-- Now, in the studio this week we have a legal eagle
:38:09. > :38:12.They are the barrister turned Swindon MP, that's Robert Buckland.
:38:13. > :38:14.And the regional secretary for the public services union
:38:15. > :38:18.You're the Solicitor General, Robert, as you probably know.
:38:19. > :38:21.So, the big story this week has been what has been
:38:22. > :38:24.going on in the Supreme Court and how Brexit should be triggered.
:38:25. > :38:30.Well, we have had the argument and now the Supreme Court justices
:38:31. > :38:32.are going to go away and considered judgment which we'll
:38:33. > :38:36.I think it's best that we wait to see the outcome of the case,
:38:37. > :38:38.and then the government will make its decision
:38:39. > :38:41.accordingly in terms of what the court determines.
:38:42. > :38:44.But I think we'll get to the triggering of Article
:38:45. > :38:46.50 by the end of March as the Prime Minister's promised.
:38:47. > :38:51.Well, I think the big issues here about the role of government,
:38:52. > :38:56.I think it's important that these issues are at
:38:57. > :39:01.And I'm confident that the independent judiciary
:39:02. > :39:09.And I think that should help not just in this case,
:39:10. > :39:10.but help more generally an understanding
:39:11. > :39:15.They've been taking a lot of stick for this suggestion even that MPs
:39:16. > :39:20.should be able to have a say over triggering of the article.
:39:21. > :39:32.How will you vote if MPs do have a say over
:39:33. > :39:35.How will you vote if MPs do have a say?
:39:36. > :39:39.Yeah, I was a Remainer, I campaigned actively for it.
:39:40. > :39:41.I understand that things have changed.
:39:42. > :39:44.You would vote against your conscience?
:39:45. > :39:47.I would abide by the clear view of the British people.
:39:48. > :39:50.I'm a democrat at the end of it and I have to abide
:39:51. > :39:55.Well, whatever my personal view is, we asked the British
:39:56. > :39:58.They did, now we've got to get on with it.
:39:59. > :40:01.Well, I'm really interested in what the clear view
:40:02. > :40:06.Because I think on the 23rd of June, the people voted in effect to move
:40:07. > :40:08.house, out of the house that was the EU.
:40:09. > :40:11.And now what I think we want to know is, what kind
:40:12. > :40:16.Will there be any free movement of people?
:40:17. > :40:18.We we still have some of the regulations, some
:40:19. > :40:21.And the response that we're getting is, frankly,
:40:22. > :40:23.if it wasn't so serious, it would be funny.
:40:24. > :40:26.To be told that Brexit means Brexit, when Brexit wasn't even
:40:27. > :40:29.Or that Brexit will be red, white and blue.
:40:30. > :40:33.But if you were in the Commons, would you say the people got that
:40:34. > :40:35.wrong in my opinion, so I'm going to vote
:40:36. > :40:40.I think I would say the people have voted to open negotiations.
:40:41. > :40:42.I think the government should be really clear in those negotiations,
:40:43. > :40:45.To suggest that somehow keeping it secret will help,
:40:46. > :40:48.it's not a boxing match where if you land a punch
:40:49. > :40:51.It's actually a set of negotiations where you should
:40:52. > :40:55.Don't forget, the government have said they are going to publish
:40:56. > :40:57.their position ahead of any negotiations.
:40:58. > :41:00.The debate that we can have, the detail, will come
:41:01. > :41:13.Now, the way police in Wiltshire and elsewhere investigate
:41:14. > :41:15.historical child abuse has been condemned by a former MP
:41:16. > :41:18.Tessa Munt, who represented Wells until last year,
:41:19. > :41:21.says it is vital work but has been badly handled.
:41:22. > :41:23.It comes after Wiltshire's Chief Constable made an outspoken defence
:41:24. > :41:25.of his force's enquiry into allegations about the former
:41:26. > :41:34.Could a British Prime Minister have been a sexual predator?
:41:35. > :41:36.The late Edward Heath is among many public figures investigated.
:41:37. > :41:39.It's four years since Jimmy Savile's crimes were revealed.
:41:40. > :41:41.That precipitated an avalanche of allegations and action
:41:42. > :41:52.With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement
:41:53. > :41:59.For one MP at Parliament that day, it was deeply personal.
:42:00. > :42:02.Tessa Munt was abused for five years from the age of 12.
:42:03. > :42:06.It was decades before she reported it.
:42:07. > :42:11.I had a horrendous six months of reliving the nightmare.
:42:12. > :42:17.But actually, I got used to saying what had happened.
:42:18. > :42:21.You know, the thing that was a nightmare for me
:42:22. > :42:25.was thinking that that person might be doing that to somebody else,
:42:26. > :42:28.and that if I had been brave enough to speak up,
:42:29. > :42:33.all that time ago, somebody else might not have suffered what I did.
:42:34. > :42:49.Today, she follows with sadness but no surprise the revelations
:42:50. > :42:51.of abuse in football, as hundreds of potential
:42:52. > :42:55.People are shocked by those statistics, but the whole world
:42:56. > :42:58.is changing, and I think there will be an understanding
:42:59. > :43:01.of the fact that it is a huge problem in our society.
:43:02. > :43:14.Ted Heath lived the last 20 years of his life in Salisbury.
:43:15. > :43:17.Last year, Wiltshire Police gathered of the media in front of his house
:43:18. > :43:26.I'm really appealing for anybody that has been a victim of crime,
:43:27. > :43:30.or witnessed anything that may have taken place involving Sir Ted Heath.
:43:31. > :43:33.Tessa Munt believes the way this, and other investigations,
:43:34. > :43:37.To choose your location as being outside his house in Salisbury,
:43:38. > :43:41.the house that he occupied in Salisbury, is just outrageous.
:43:42. > :43:46.They've behaved pretty atrociously over the whole Cliff Richard thing,
:43:47. > :43:58.You know, the police's job is to investigate,
:43:59. > :44:01.not to create some sort of media whiz around themselves and show
:44:02. > :44:03.themselves to be simply brilliant on this particular occasion
:44:04. > :44:04.because they've done the investigation.
:44:05. > :44:07.Wiltshire Police have also faced criticism for spending 16
:44:08. > :44:09.months and ?750,000, while reaching no clear conclusion.
:44:10. > :44:16.Requests for interviews were turned down.
:44:17. > :44:18.Instead, a stern Chief Constable recorded his own rebuttal.
:44:19. > :44:20.Over the last few weeks particularly, there has been much
:44:21. > :44:25.I really am very concerned and profoundly disappointed
:44:26. > :44:27.about the impact of this speculation on the public's
:44:28. > :44:35.The potential prejudicial impact on life criminal investigations,
:44:36. > :44:37.not to mention the confidence of persons who come
:44:38. > :44:48.This is not a fishing trip or witchhunt.
:44:49. > :44:51.Both of these terms have been unfairly levelled at us.
:44:52. > :44:55.The legal role of the police service is two, on the half of the public,
:44:56. > :44:57.impartially investigate allegations without fear or favour.
:44:58. > :44:58.Wiltshire's and other investigations will press on.
:44:59. > :45:02.For the sake of the victims, get it right, pleads Tessa Munt.
:45:03. > :45:05.My heart goes out to everybody who has suffered.
:45:06. > :45:09.I'm not in the slightest bit surprised at the scale of this.
:45:10. > :45:17.It's nowhere near an covering all of this.
:45:18. > :45:25.Joanne, is there any limit to how much public funds and effort should
:45:26. > :45:27.be put into investigating these sorts of cases?
:45:28. > :45:31.Well, that's a bit like asking what is the price of justice.
:45:32. > :45:33.If you look back, we saw that the Jimmy Savile case,
:45:34. > :45:35.I'm sure it cost hundreds of thousands, possibly
:45:36. > :45:53.To expose Jimmy Savile and the crimes that he committed.
:45:54. > :45:55.Are we saying that is money not well spent?
:45:56. > :45:59.I think it's important that we do investigate these crimes.
:46:00. > :46:01.But also put the resource into making sure that
:46:02. > :46:04.And making sure that we are protecting children when clearly
:46:05. > :46:08.Robert, you are quoted in one newspapers having
:46:09. > :46:13.Robert, you are quoted in one newspaper as having had a private
:46:14. > :46:17.And accusing him of going on a fishing expedition.
:46:18. > :46:22.I don't think it's right of me to make comments
:46:23. > :46:25.What I will say is that the police and the investigating authorities
:46:26. > :46:27.should follow the evidence wherever it leads.
:46:28. > :46:29.They shouldn't come to any preconceived
:46:30. > :46:37.I think it's important that that sense of impartial investigation
:46:38. > :46:39.is strongly felt from the beginning of an enquiry.
:46:40. > :46:41.Now, it's right to say as has already been said,
:46:42. > :46:43.that results should never be an obstacle to the
:46:44. > :46:47.And that's why the CPS is working extremely hard to prosecute hundreds
:46:48. > :46:51.Bringing victims some form of closure and Justice.
:46:52. > :46:53.In this case, there's 21 officers, ?750,000 spent.
:46:54. > :46:56.Wiltshire is a small force, its funding is being cut.
:46:57. > :47:00.I think the police have to follow the evidence wherever it leads.
:47:01. > :47:02.And, you know, the Chief Constable has operational decisions to make.
:47:03. > :47:05.He is close to, I hope, the evidence in this
:47:06. > :47:08.case and understand that if there is a body of evidence, it
:47:09. > :47:11.But I think it's important that we remember, you know,
:47:12. > :47:25.at the head of all these investigations, we mustn't have
:47:26. > :47:27.preconceptions about the credibility or otherwise...
:47:28. > :47:29.Do you think they have a preconception that when he stood
:47:30. > :47:31.outside Edward Heath's house and talked about victims,
:47:32. > :47:33.did that appear to be an open mind to you?
:47:34. > :47:36.I very much hope that they didn't have a preconception.
:47:37. > :47:38.I very much hope that the investigation is being conducted
:47:39. > :47:43.If you had seen that tape and you were in court,
:47:44. > :47:48.Well, it's very difficult to know what a judge would do unless you see
:47:49. > :47:53.But it's very difficult to know what the outcome of these
:47:54. > :47:56.There might be allegations that need to be followed up.
:47:57. > :48:02.What I do know is that Sir Edward Heath is long dead,
:48:03. > :48:05.and that we have a major enquiry chaired by Professor Alexis Jay
:48:06. > :48:11.And I very much hope that there is a linkup
:48:12. > :48:14.between investigations like this and the Jay enquiry to make
:48:15. > :48:17.sure that historic child abuse can be dealt with.
:48:18. > :48:19.The police have said time and time again that
:48:20. > :48:22.when you are investigating those who may have been responsible
:48:23. > :48:25.for multiple sexual offences, you do need the cooperation
:48:26. > :48:31.of a wide number of people because often, and the prosecutions
:48:32. > :48:33.that were successful depended on them finding a large
:48:34. > :48:35.number of people who had experienced the same thing
:48:36. > :48:46.I know this is speculation, but do you think it's credible that
:48:47. > :48:49.Sir Edward Heath crept out of Downing Street at night
:48:50. > :48:53.What I know about Sir Edward Heath is that he had police protection
:48:54. > :48:58.Now, if there is credible evidence out there about alleged behaviour,
:48:59. > :49:03.But what I do know, and I think we agree on this,
:49:04. > :49:06.is that where you do have a say multiple abuses,
:49:07. > :49:09.If you get, you know, publicity about one victim,
:49:10. > :49:15.The Stuart Hall case was a good example where it did actually bring
:49:16. > :49:19.Those in child protection have taught that you must always
:49:20. > :49:21.entertain the possibility that whoever the person is,
:49:22. > :49:38.You cannot use your own prejudices to say this person conducted at.
:49:39. > :49:40.-- this person couldn't have done it.
:49:41. > :49:45.Your colleague in Wiltshire, James Gray, is saying that if this
:49:46. > :49:48.comes to nothing then the Chief Constable will have to go.
:49:49. > :49:51.Look, again, I don't think it's right for me to start
:49:52. > :49:53.prejudging the career of operational police officers.
:49:54. > :49:55.All right, we'll have to leave it there.
:49:56. > :49:59.When was the last time you actually used your local library?
:50:00. > :50:02.More in the West could soon end up featuring in the local history
:50:03. > :50:04.aisle, after council decisions this week.
:50:05. > :50:06.In a moment, we'll be discussing whether libraries
:50:07. > :50:15.And then the rather more polite ones.
:50:16. > :50:24.They might be quiet, but don't underestimate their passion.
:50:25. > :50:36.This is a read in, at a Swindon library that is about to fall
:50:37. > :50:40.And these are cut even the professionals say is a new level.
:50:41. > :50:43.What we're seeing in Swindon is not only some of the worst cuts closures
:50:44. > :50:46.to library services in the UK, but across most of Western Europe.
:50:47. > :50:48.What they are proposing here, you know, the European average
:50:49. > :50:50.is around one library for 15,000 people.
:50:51. > :50:52.Proposing here one library for 40,000 people.
:50:53. > :50:55.There's no way that we can deliver a comprehensive
:50:56. > :51:04.But councils are under huge financial pressure from Westminster,
:51:05. > :51:06.having to make tough choices, libraries are at risk.
:51:07. > :51:08.In Swindon, the council decided on Wednesday to withdraw funding
:51:09. > :51:13.On Tuesday in North Somerset, ?250,000 was cut from
:51:14. > :51:19.Some will be moved into children's centres to keep them open.
:51:20. > :51:22.While South Gloucestershire Council has said it wants to be the first
:51:23. > :51:27.in the country to offer an entirely self-service operation.
:51:28. > :51:33.For a glimpse of the future, I head to this place in Wiltshire,
:51:34. > :51:35.where they're already trying this idea out.
:51:36. > :51:37.You swipe yourself in, pick your book.
:51:38. > :51:39.The machines take care of the loans and returns.
:51:40. > :51:42.Where a librarian might once have shushed, now even on the days
:51:43. > :51:47.when it's not staffed, this is still functioning library.
:51:48. > :51:49.Often a on Wednesday when the library's closed
:51:50. > :51:52.and I forget that, I think, "Great, I can still do my
:51:53. > :51:57.You'll have to put yourself on the waiting list to borrow
:51:58. > :52:05.At her home near Stroud, the bestselling writer behind many
:52:06. > :52:08.a racy romance romp tells me libraries had a profound
:52:09. > :52:12.I just remember when I was young, when we went up to Yorkshire
:52:13. > :52:14.after the war and suddenly going into a public library.
:52:15. > :52:18.I mean, there were these books all round me.
:52:19. > :52:21.And what was amazing was that every kind of book I wanted to read,
:52:22. > :52:26.But also, I mean, I could take them home.
:52:27. > :52:29.She's worried future generations might not get the same chances.
:52:30. > :52:33.I mean, Swindon has a big heart, they can't be doing it, you know,
:52:34. > :52:36.They're obviously doing it because they've got
:52:37. > :52:44.But I think they could possibly keep some more open.
:52:45. > :52:46.Because it just seems to me that people need to read,
:52:47. > :52:55.If you are poor, this is a whole free world for you,
:52:56. > :53:00.The notion that libraries are some kind of welfare service,
:53:01. > :53:03.some deficit model for poorer people or isolate people, is to place
:53:04. > :53:05.libraries in the wrong place in public life.
:53:06. > :53:07.John isn't just a former Labour political strategist.
:53:08. > :53:10.He is also a former councillor and a qualified librarian.
:53:11. > :53:18.He's got a message many would want to hear.
:53:19. > :53:21.There's a lot of sentimental claptrap spoken about libraries.
:53:22. > :53:24.Fewer than four in ten adults used a library once in the last year.
:53:25. > :53:27.The decline has been setting in for more than a decade,
:53:28. > :53:38.Do you accept that politically it's very for local councillors to come
:53:39. > :53:41.out and say that a lot of libraries aren't necessary any more?
:53:42. > :53:43.If the public want libraries, they have to use them.
:53:44. > :53:46.The decline of the last decade is sending a signal to councillors
:53:47. > :53:48.that councillors would be wrong to ignore.
:53:49. > :53:50.And when the choice is between social care
:53:51. > :53:53.that is desperately needed and libraries which people aren't
:53:54. > :53:55.going to, how can you come them come the council that decides
:53:56. > :53:58.to prioritise care for older people that takes pressure
:53:59. > :53:59.off the health service, gives dignity and independence
:54:00. > :54:03.to older people in their own homes, against keeping open a service that
:54:04. > :54:12.And as pressure continues to grow, the West's councils face a choice.
:54:13. > :54:15.Do libraries need to be renewed, or are they living on borrowed time?
:54:16. > :54:19.You look after the union side of things.
:54:20. > :54:22.What do you make of this idea of having libraries
:54:23. > :54:27.I think they are very good for the people who just want to know
:54:28. > :54:31.what books they want to borrow, and they want to just go in,
:54:32. > :54:36.But people who are perhaps going to the library for the first time,
:54:37. > :54:42.My mother uses a library, and the librarian's one
:54:43. > :54:44.of her best friends and always makes recommendations, helps her,
:54:45. > :54:47.kind of calls her when something new has come in.
:54:48. > :54:51.That's going to have that same service.
:54:52. > :54:54.So it's very transactional, but it's not going to help people
:54:55. > :54:58.who perhaps are using libraries for the first time.
:54:59. > :55:01.And I think getting people to use libraries more is very important.
:55:02. > :55:03.Robert, are you proud of what Swindon council is doing?
:55:04. > :55:06.Well, they're having to deal with a very tough situation.
:55:07. > :55:08.But, you know, I'm confident that actually the majority
:55:09. > :55:11.And I'm working closely with councillors and indeed
:55:12. > :55:19.with other people with a passion for libraries in Swindon to make
:55:20. > :55:22.sure that we can develop not only our core library,
:55:23. > :55:24.but via a mutual trust option that the staff have
:55:25. > :55:34.There is a serious, concerted effort to make sure that branches that
:55:35. > :55:36.aren't within the core will stay open.
:55:37. > :55:38.So for all this talk about ten closures, I'm
:55:39. > :55:42.And I think that we can keep the network going
:55:43. > :55:43.and have a sustainable model for Swindon.
:55:44. > :55:47.Actually, I'd like us to be more ambitious for libraries.
:55:48. > :55:49.I think it's interesting that they're merging with children's
:55:50. > :55:53.But there's no reason why libraries should just be about books.
:55:54. > :55:58.They could be ways in which people can learn about the digital age.
:55:59. > :56:00.We know there's a real gap in people's digital skills.
:56:01. > :56:02.And libraries are places people learn more.
:56:03. > :56:03.If you look at libraries in schools...
:56:04. > :56:10.So a council faced with cutting social services or cutting books,
:56:11. > :56:18.Actually having the library, which is also a learning hub,
:56:19. > :56:22.but also the council one stop shop where you can come and find out
:56:23. > :56:25.What's happening in Swindon, young people who don't
:56:26. > :56:27.have the Internet at home are doing their homework
:56:28. > :56:30.Job-seekers who don't have the Internet are using
:56:31. > :56:38.I accept that the settlement is a tight one.
:56:39. > :56:43.Which is why I'm working as hard as I can to make sure the network
:56:44. > :56:46.stays open and that we have a more sustainable model for the future.
:56:47. > :56:49.Which is why the staff, councillors, all of us are working together
:56:50. > :56:51.The remaining libraries, the branch libraries,
:56:52. > :56:54.the opening hours are being cut to about 15 hours a week.
:56:55. > :56:56.Which is why I think with innovation, I think
:56:57. > :56:59.there is government funding to support innovation which I think
:57:00. > :57:03.I'd like to see longer opening hours, and more, you know,
:57:04. > :57:04.different approach to have libraries are in communities.
:57:05. > :57:07.I think that that can come from a variety of income sources,
:57:08. > :57:11.I think we need to look at shared use more.
:57:12. > :57:14.There's a lot of really interesting thinking going on in Swindon to make
:57:15. > :57:17.sure that we have a service that's fit for the future.
:57:18. > :57:20.Well, I don't doubt your good intentions.
:57:21. > :57:23.But what you really need to do is be talking to colleagues in government
:57:24. > :57:26.and saying that this year on year on cuts to local government
:57:27. > :57:29.services, it's just proving unsustainable.
:57:30. > :57:31.And I have sympathy for people saying, "We have to close
:57:32. > :57:33.the library because otherwise cuts to old people's services."
:57:34. > :57:42.And it's time to try and turn things round.
:57:43. > :57:44.That is a whole new subject, but thank you.
:57:45. > :57:52.Here is our round-up of the West's political week.
:57:53. > :57:55.A Yeovil man was jailed for two years after harassing
:57:56. > :58:02.24-year-old Joshua Bonehill Payne targeted the Jewish Liberal MP
:58:03. > :58:10.Luciana Berger with a string of anti-Semitic rants.
:58:11. > :58:14.Families who took their children out of school said they couldn't go
:58:15. > :58:17.on holiday win their case against Swindon council.
:58:18. > :58:19.They had all received fines for unauthorised absence.
:58:20. > :58:22.The nine councils that serve Dorset could be merged to form only two.
:58:23. > :58:28.It would save over ?100 million over the next six years.
:58:29. > :58:31.At PMQs, the Gloucester MP urged cross-country trains to provide more
:58:32. > :58:36.Do not allow cross-country to go on treating Gloucester like a leper
:58:37. > :58:39.to be avoided at all costs, and apply to them to deliver
:58:40. > :58:49.In Bristol, the days of free on street parking
:58:50. > :58:56.It's one of a number of controversial measures
:58:57. > :58:58.by the mayor as he tries to balance his books.
:58:59. > :59:02.This dreadful Internet trolling which is going on,
:59:03. > :59:05.Is there much more that the government can
:59:06. > :59:19.Politicians will get criticised, of course.
:59:20. > :59:22.What I've noticed is a lot of my female colleagues have had
:59:23. > :59:24.disproportionately offensive remarks, and threats made to them.
:59:25. > :59:26.Which make them fear for their personal safety.
:59:27. > :59:28.That's not acceptable in a civilised society.
:59:29. > :59:30.We need to police the boundaries of free speech very
:59:31. > :59:32.vigorously when people cross the line into criminality.
:59:33. > :59:37.Anonymity, can I say, is no hiding place,
:59:38. > :59:41.because the police can track people down as we saw in the feature.
:59:42. > :59:43.I've experienced that kind of online abuse.
:59:44. > :59:48.Children are really distressed by it.
:59:49. > :59:50.But I think people need to challenge it.
:59:51. > :59:53.And the social media platforms need to put more resources into making
:59:54. > :59:56.sure there are real people who can see these tweets and can
:59:57. > :59:58.see the blogs and shut them down immediately.
:59:59. > :00:00.And not be confused that that is free speech,
:00:01. > :00:10.because it's not what free speech should be.
:00:11. > :00:14.My thanks to my guests, Robert Buckland and Joanne K.
:00:15. > :00:15.still the biggest factor. We are running out of time.
:00:16. > :00:29.Now, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was rebuked
:00:30. > :00:32.by Downing Street this week - yes, again - after the Guardian
:00:33. > :00:35.revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia of being among countries engaged
:00:36. > :00:37.in fighting "proxy wars" in the Middle East, breaking
:00:38. > :00:40.the Foreign Office's convention of not criticising a key UK ally
:00:41. > :00:42.in the region and annoying the prime minister who'd just returned
:00:43. > :00:49.The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was asked about it
:00:50. > :00:57.And let's be very clear about this, the way some of his remarks
:00:58. > :00:59.were reported seemed to imply we didn't support the right
:01:00. > :01:03.of Saudi Arabia to defend itself, and it is being attacked by Houthi
:01:04. > :01:05.terrorists from over the border with Yemen,
:01:06. > :01:07.didn't support what Saudi is doing in leading the campaign to restore
:01:08. > :01:15.Some of the reporting led people to think that, and that is all...
:01:16. > :01:17.This was simply the way it was reported and interpreted.
:01:18. > :01:20.The way it was interpreted left people with the impression
:01:21. > :01:29.that we didn't support Saudi Arabia and we do.
:01:30. > :01:31.Well, Mr Johnson has been in the Saudi capital
:01:32. > :01:33.Riyadh this morning, so how's he been received?
:01:34. > :01:35.Our security correspondent Frank Gardner is in neighbouring
:01:36. > :01:41.Bahrain, where Mr Johnson was earlier in the weekend.
:01:42. > :01:47.It has probably been a long time since there has been such interest
:01:48. > :01:51.in a British Foreign Secretary visiting the gulf region. What are
:01:52. > :01:58.the political elites there making of it all? Well, they think to be
:01:59. > :02:02.honest it is a bit of a storm in a tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall
:02:03. > :02:07.story, I think a lot of people I have spoken to tend to believe that
:02:08. > :02:12.Number Ten have made such a fuss about this, that it has created a
:02:13. > :02:17.story in itself. That said, though, I think that behind the scenes there
:02:18. > :02:21.was a certain amount of damage limitation taking place between
:02:22. > :02:26.London and Riyadh, a bit of smoothing of feathers and reassuring
:02:27. > :02:30.and the Stade Saudis tell me they are reassured the message they are
:02:31. > :02:34.taking is. Coming from Number Ten and they are not taking Boris
:02:35. > :02:39.Johnson's comments to heart. He is in the dam, he has met the king, I
:02:40. > :02:45.tweet add picture of that just a few minutes ago. He has been meeting
:02:46. > :02:49.Crown Prince, and he is now meeting the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis
:02:50. > :02:52.got an opportunity to brief him according to their vision of the
:02:53. > :02:56.Middle East. They will share their security concern, which is not just
:02:57. > :03:00.what is going on in Yemen, but they are very concerned about what they
:03:01. > :03:04.see as Iranian expansionism, that has been a theme here at this
:03:05. > :03:10.conference in Bahrain that Boris Johnson addressed only a day or two
:03:11. > :03:13.ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's supposed gaffes or even the Downing
:03:14. > :03:19.Street slapping down of him, we have had the Prime Minister in the region
:03:20. > :03:26.earlier this week, we have got Mr Johnson there now, can we yet divine
:03:27. > :03:33.what the May Government strategy is in the Golf? -- Guff. In three
:03:34. > :03:42.words, in Boris Johnson's words Britain is back. He was very quick
:03:43. > :03:46.to say not in a jingoistic running up flags, new imperial list way,
:03:47. > :03:53.although that is Howley be seen by some. He gave a very forceful speech
:03:54. > :03:58.which seemed to go down well the gulf hosts here on Friday night
:03:59. > :04:04.which said Britain made a strategic mistake in, after 1968 in
:04:05. > :04:09.withdrawing east of Suez and it will reverse that decision, and invest ?3
:04:10. > :04:14.billion over the next ten years in building up its military not bases
:04:15. > :04:18.exactly but facilities -- facilities that are here in this part of the
:04:19. > :04:21.world. There are currently 15 hundred hundred British servicemen
:04:22. > :04:26.and women in this region, seven warships and so on. It isn't
:04:27. > :04:29.entirely true to say Britain withdrew east of Suez because we
:04:30. > :04:36.have had a military presence on and off here, the RAF had a base here in
:04:37. > :04:41.Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91. In 2003, of course, British planes
:04:42. > :04:47.and troops deployed from this area, but he and Theresa May are both
:04:48. > :04:52.saying post-Brexit, Britain's big emphasis or one of the big pushes is
:04:53. > :04:57.going to be to redouble its ties with gulf Arab nations, that isn't
:04:58. > :05:02.going to come as an easy bit of new, I think, to human rights campaigners
:05:03. > :05:07.and anti-arms campaigners because a large part of the ?7 billion of
:05:08. > :05:12.bilateral trade Britain did with Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals
:05:13. > :05:17.and those arms are being used in the conflict in Yemen, in some cases
:05:18. > :05:22.with tragic consequences. Thank you very much for talking to us.
:05:23. > :05:29.Instead of concentrating on Mr Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street
:05:30. > :05:34.reaction to it. Frank Gardner there has just given us a really important
:05:35. > :05:39.development, or explained what the British are up to there now. They
:05:40. > :05:42.want to be back in the gulf big time. Isn't that something we should
:05:43. > :05:46.be debating and discussing? It is fascinating. It is yet another
:05:47. > :05:51.example post-Brexit I would say this is someone who voted to Brexit, that
:05:52. > :05:57.the world is changing, and Britain's role is going to be transformed
:05:58. > :06:02.post-Brexit. I mean just on the Boris point, I completely agree, I
:06:03. > :06:06.think a lot of it is ridiculous, in a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I
:06:07. > :06:11.think what is really important about it, is that Number Ten feel
:06:12. > :06:15.threatened by him, and the reason that these ridiculous gaffes and
:06:16. > :06:22.many of them are not even gaffes are pounced upon is he is the main rival
:06:23. > :06:25.for the Crown, so it is high level power play politics, and it is May
:06:26. > :06:30.trying to keep him in his place. What do you make though, of Britain
:06:31. > :06:35.is back in the gulf? That is the big story, is it not. Utterly bizarre,
:06:36. > :06:39.post imperial fantasy, the idea we are back east of Suez? We are
:06:40. > :06:45.breaking off from our closest ally, most like us, the rest of Europe,
:06:46. > :06:51.democratic, decent human rights country, and instead we are allying
:06:52. > :06:57.ourself to perilous, dangerous, unpleasant countries... Why should
:06:58. > :07:04.we be back in the gulf? If that is the trade off, these are, you know,
:07:05. > :07:09.these renasty kingdoms, petty unpleasant and unstable countries.
:07:10. > :07:13.Don't we have to keep the straits open otherwise the oil supply
:07:14. > :07:16.collapses and the world economy will go into the worst recession
:07:17. > :07:21.depression ever? Don't we have to be involved in that We do, and I think
:07:22. > :07:25.what happens is if we leave Europe and we need trade everywhere else,
:07:26. > :07:29.we have to travel the world on our knees begging for friends from the
:07:30. > :07:36.most unsavoury people, where ever they are, whether it is... You keep
:07:37. > :07:40.saying we are leaving Europe, that is a geographic impossibility.
:07:41. > :07:44.Britain is part of Europe, we are the... Not what Liam Fox is saying.
:07:45. > :07:48.The key power in Nato, we are leaving the European Union, that is
:07:49. > :07:55.a different Tring from Europe. I am trying to move away from Mr Johnson,
:07:56. > :07:59.or even Downing Street to... You got yourself into a Brexit row.
:08:00. > :08:04.Everything is through the prism of Brexit, even what you have for
:08:05. > :08:08.breakfast, when you mix up the word like I did last week. What do you
:08:09. > :08:13.make of what Frank Gardner told us? I am somewhere between the two. It
:08:14. > :08:16.is a nighs the line say we are back in the Middle East and we will take
:08:17. > :08:21.this part of the world seriously, the truth is our military is almost
:08:22. > :08:26.tiny, it is smaller than it was in the Napoleonic wars, that is not a
:08:27. > :08:31.huge amount more. Of course there S one of the two new aircraft
:08:32. > :08:35.carriers, that will be deployed in the gulf, to help the Americans keep
:08:36. > :08:43.the straits of her muz open, because it is in Europe's interest, not just
:08:44. > :08:48.Britains, Europe's interest that these straits stay open, which is
:08:49. > :08:54.more so than America. That is what FRANK was talking about. That is no
:08:55. > :09:00.change, British foreign policy has been keeping the straits open... Now
:09:01. > :09:07.we have the ability do it. We don't have an aircraft aier at the moment.
:09:08. > :09:14.Nor do we have the fleet of ships it needs. It is a great thing to be
:09:15. > :09:18.trade morgue with the Nice, to be turning -- Middle East, to be
:09:19. > :09:22.turning round more tax revenues and the like. Even selling weapons. I
:09:23. > :09:27.don't know what more can be done. You look at what has happened. BBC
:09:28. > :09:30.has had horrific reports from the Yemen and if you look at what the
:09:31. > :09:37.weapons are being used for, is that the trade we want? Right. Let us
:09:38. > :09:39.move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a speech yesterday but he was
:09:40. > :09:41.inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell. -- interrupted.
:09:42. > :09:54.Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?
:09:55. > :09:56.Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then
:09:57. > :10:10.Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a
:10:11. > :10:15.distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be
:10:16. > :10:19.able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do
:10:20. > :10:25.something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather
:10:26. > :10:29.than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in
:10:30. > :10:35.general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning
:10:36. > :10:41.what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was
:10:42. > :10:45.interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had
:10:46. > :10:53.they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other
:10:54. > :10:58.than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics
:10:59. > :11:02.which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the
:11:03. > :11:07.British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the
:11:08. > :11:11.Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the
:11:12. > :11:15.things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is
:11:16. > :11:20.happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry
:11:21. > :11:24.watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last
:11:25. > :11:29.week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the
:11:30. > :11:37.west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.
:11:38. > :11:41.And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily
:11:42. > :11:47.Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If
:11:48. > :11:52.and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are
:11:53. > :11:56.talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than
:11:57. > :12:01.anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We
:12:02. > :12:05.will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I
:12:06. > :12:08.understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from
:12:09. > :12:12.analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it
:12:13. > :12:16.is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator
:12:17. > :12:22.of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in
:12:23. > :12:26.reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far
:12:27. > :12:31.you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty
:12:32. > :12:35.much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and
:12:36. > :12:39.the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the
:12:40. > :12:43.press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is
:12:44. > :12:49.behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.
:12:50. > :12:54.He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much
:12:55. > :12:58.of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is
:12:59. > :13:03.time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the
:13:04. > :13:08.cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,
:13:09. > :13:15.you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree
:13:16. > :13:20.at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want
:13:21. > :13:24.to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a
:13:25. > :13:27.reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,
:13:28. > :13:31.that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.
:13:32. > :13:38.I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily
:13:39. > :13:41.Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.
:13:42. > :13:44.and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.
:13:45. > :14:20.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:21. > :14:46.# We're going to have a party tonight
:14:47. > :14:51.# I'm going to find that boy underneath the mistletoe