15/01/2017

:00:33. > :00:36.It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37. > :00:39.Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

:00:40. > :00:43.of the EU's single market and its customs union?

:00:44. > :00:46.We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

:00:47. > :00:53.Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

:00:54. > :00:55.As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

:00:56. > :01:00.of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

:01:01. > :01:06.Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

:01:07. > :01:27.Censorship all sensible? well, joins us live.

:01:28. > :01:31.And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

:01:32. > :01:33.hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

:01:34. > :01:41.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

:01:42. > :01:48.So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

:01:49. > :01:51.in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

:01:52. > :01:55.and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

:01:56. > :01:58.Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

:01:59. > :02:01.The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

:02:02. > :02:05.gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

:02:06. > :02:08.will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

:02:09. > :02:13.of the single market and customs union.

:02:14. > :02:15.The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

:02:16. > :02:18.they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

:02:19. > :02:21.The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

:02:22. > :02:25.hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

:02:26. > :02:28.And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

:02:29. > :02:30.explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

:02:31. > :02:33.and call for an end to free movement.

:02:34. > :02:35.Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

:02:36. > :02:37.I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

:02:38. > :02:44.of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

:02:45. > :02:50.Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

:02:51. > :02:53.most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

:02:54. > :03:00.But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

:03:01. > :03:03.that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

:03:04. > :03:07.the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

:03:08. > :03:11.the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

:03:12. > :03:15.basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

:03:16. > :03:19.with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

:03:20. > :03:23.stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

:03:24. > :03:26.British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

:03:27. > :03:31.ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

:03:32. > :03:35.upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

:03:36. > :03:38.position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

:03:39. > :03:44.and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

:03:45. > :03:48.it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

:03:49. > :03:52.the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

:03:53. > :03:57.believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

:03:58. > :04:01.resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

:04:02. > :04:06.Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

:04:07. > :04:10.negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

:04:11. > :04:13.really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

:04:14. > :04:19.fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

:04:20. > :04:23.whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

:04:24. > :04:28.the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

:04:29. > :04:30.Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

:04:31. > :04:36.final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

:04:37. > :04:42.Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

:04:43. > :04:45.Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

:04:46. > :04:49.a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

:04:50. > :04:53.introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

:04:54. > :04:56.It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

:04:57. > :05:00.servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

:05:01. > :05:04.deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

:05:05. > :05:11.the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

:05:12. > :05:13.Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

:05:14. > :05:16.You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

:05:17. > :05:19.jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

:05:20. > :05:25.of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

:05:26. > :05:30.it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

:05:31. > :05:33.good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

:05:34. > :05:37.that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

:05:38. > :05:40.nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

:05:41. > :05:45.best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

:05:46. > :05:49.that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

:05:50. > :05:52.union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

:05:53. > :05:56.package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

:05:57. > :06:00.better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

:06:01. > :06:03.travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

:06:04. > :06:08.Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

:06:09. > :06:11.and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

:06:12. > :06:14.the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

:06:15. > :06:19.believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

:06:20. > :06:25.for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

:06:26. > :06:29.ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

:06:30. > :06:34.continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

:06:35. > :06:38.what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

:06:39. > :06:42.Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

:06:43. > :06:44.membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

:06:45. > :06:50.amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

:06:51. > :06:54.believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

:06:55. > :06:58.I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

:06:59. > :07:02.people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

:07:03. > :07:07.individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

:07:08. > :07:12.your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

:07:13. > :07:16.freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

:07:17. > :07:21.Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

:07:22. > :07:24.don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

:07:25. > :07:30.without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

:07:31. > :07:33.depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

:07:34. > :07:38.white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

:07:39. > :07:41.flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

:07:42. > :07:45.corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

:07:46. > :07:51.that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

:07:52. > :07:57.members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

:07:58. > :08:01.of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

:08:02. > :08:04.many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

:08:05. > :08:08.you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

:08:09. > :08:10.aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

:08:11. > :08:14.that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

:08:15. > :08:18.very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

:08:19. > :08:23.in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

:08:24. > :08:29.answer to my question, you haven't answered it

:08:30. > :08:33.the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

:08:34. > :08:38.deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

:08:39. > :08:43.right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

:08:44. > :08:46.you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

:08:47. > :08:50.afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

:08:51. > :08:56.The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

:08:57. > :09:03.Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

:09:04. > :09:08.the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

:09:09. > :09:11.of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

:09:12. > :09:14.only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

:09:15. > :09:21.for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

:09:22. > :09:25.that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

:09:26. > :09:28.migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

:09:29. > :09:32.that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

:09:33. > :09:35.is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

:09:36. > :09:39.customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

:09:40. > :09:43.clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

:09:44. > :09:46.don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

:09:47. > :09:54.definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

:09:55. > :09:56.is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

:09:57. > :09:58.somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

:09:59. > :10:04.hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

:10:05. > :10:07.option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

:10:08. > :10:10.personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

:10:11. > :10:19.We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

:10:20. > :10:22.on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

:10:23. > :10:27.reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

:10:28. > :10:30.possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

:10:31. > :10:34.David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

:10:35. > :10:38.Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

:10:39. > :10:43.are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

:10:44. > :10:49.rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

:10:50. > :10:53.arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

:10:54. > :10:57.encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

:10:58. > :11:00.deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

:11:01. > :11:05.service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

:11:06. > :11:08.this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

:11:09. > :11:12.you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

:11:13. > :11:17.years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

:11:18. > :11:21.to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

:11:22. > :11:26.would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

:11:27. > :11:31.What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

:11:32. > :11:34.of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

:11:35. > :11:40.machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

:11:41. > :11:44.pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

:11:45. > :11:48.you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

:11:49. > :11:54.Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

:11:55. > :11:59.European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

:12:00. > :12:03.of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

:12:04. > :12:07.these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

:12:08. > :12:10.intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

:12:11. > :12:15.what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

:12:16. > :12:18.Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

:12:19. > :12:21.markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

:12:22. > :12:26.doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

:12:27. > :12:29.it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

:12:30. > :12:31.Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

:12:32. > :12:34.week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

:12:35. > :12:35.enact a controversial piece of legislation.

:12:36. > :12:38.Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

:12:39. > :12:40.could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

:12:41. > :12:51.If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

:12:52. > :12:53.The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

:12:54. > :12:55.while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

:12:56. > :12:57.a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

:12:58. > :13:03.Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

:13:04. > :13:07.It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

:13:08. > :13:12.a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

:13:13. > :13:15.They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

:13:16. > :13:17.It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

:13:18. > :13:27.a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

:13:28. > :13:30.and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

:13:31. > :13:32.which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

:13:33. > :13:35.If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

:13:36. > :13:36.that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

:13:37. > :13:38.like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

:13:39. > :13:45.To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

:13:46. > :13:49.the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

:13:50. > :13:52.publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

:13:53. > :13:55.costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

:13:56. > :13:59.It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

:14:00. > :14:03.We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

:14:04. > :14:05.This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

:14:06. > :14:11.of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

:14:12. > :14:14.from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

:14:15. > :14:19.It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

:14:20. > :14:25.I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

:14:26. > :14:27.you have an incomplete Leveson project.

:14:28. > :14:30.I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

:14:31. > :14:33.there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

:14:34. > :14:35.standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

:14:36. > :14:38."Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

:14:39. > :14:40.Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

:14:41. > :14:48.We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

:14:49. > :14:51.for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

:14:52. > :14:54.They get huge new protections from libel threats,

:14:55. > :14:56.from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

:14:57. > :15:05.a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

:15:06. > :15:07.Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

:15:08. > :15:12.Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

:15:13. > :15:15.the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

:15:16. > :15:21.doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

:15:22. > :15:25.The male cells around 22,000 each day...

:15:26. > :15:27.There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

:15:28. > :15:30.won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

:15:31. > :15:34.are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

:15:35. > :15:36.Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

:15:37. > :15:38.through the recognition setup that it has.

:15:39. > :15:41.Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

:15:42. > :15:44.when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

:15:45. > :15:51.If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

:15:52. > :15:56.we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

:15:57. > :15:58.The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

:15:59. > :16:00.since the Government launched its consultation

:16:01. > :16:03.In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

:16:04. > :16:07.And for that reason alone, it could take months before

:16:08. > :16:12.a decision on what happens next is taken.

:16:13. > :16:15.The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

:16:16. > :16:21.One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

:16:22. > :16:23.So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

:16:24. > :16:31.I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

:16:32. > :16:35.What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

:16:36. > :16:39.on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

:16:40. > :16:42.was failing to work, was not delivering effective

:16:43. > :16:46.regulation and the press were behaving in a way

:16:47. > :16:51.which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

:16:52. > :16:54.then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

:16:55. > :16:57.case we are going to have to take further measures,

:16:58. > :17:02.The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

:17:03. > :17:05.I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

:17:06. > :17:09.about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

:17:10. > :17:12.to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

:17:13. > :17:14.But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

:17:15. > :17:25.I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

:17:26. > :17:28.Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

:17:29. > :17:32.and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

:17:33. > :17:40.Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

:17:41. > :17:45.that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

:17:46. > :17:49.press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

:17:50. > :17:54.we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

:17:55. > :17:58.into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

:17:59. > :18:03.absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

:18:04. > :18:08.like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

:18:09. > :18:09.hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

:18:10. > :18:36.means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

:18:37. > :18:39.many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

:18:40. > :18:41.does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

:18:42. > :18:44.You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

:18:45. > :18:47.People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

:18:48. > :18:50.from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

:18:51. > :18:53.but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

:18:54. > :19:00.money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

:19:01. > :19:03.from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

:19:04. > :19:08.the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

:19:09. > :19:12.because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

:19:13. > :19:22.most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

:19:23. > :19:26.the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

:19:27. > :19:33.influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

:19:34. > :19:37.lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

:19:38. > :19:46.historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

:19:47. > :19:51.family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

:19:52. > :19:56.control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

:19:57. > :20:00.the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

:20:01. > :20:06.completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

:20:07. > :20:09.wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

:20:10. > :20:15.because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

:20:16. > :20:20.curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

:20:21. > :20:26.press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

:20:27. > :20:30.Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

:20:31. > :20:38.is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

:20:39. > :20:44.tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

:20:45. > :20:50.advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

:20:51. > :20:55.Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

:20:56. > :20:59.be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

:21:00. > :21:03.press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

:21:04. > :21:07.reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

:21:08. > :21:10.selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

:21:11. > :21:15.absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

:21:16. > :21:19.Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

:21:20. > :21:25.remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

:21:26. > :21:31.He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

:21:32. > :21:40.the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

:21:41. > :21:56.do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

:21:57. > :22:03.code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

:22:04. > :22:07.be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

:22:08. > :22:12.against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

:22:13. > :22:17.wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

:22:18. > :22:28.I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

:22:29. > :22:36.wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

:22:37. > :22:40.Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

:22:41. > :22:45.people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

:22:46. > :22:51.but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

:22:52. > :22:55.have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

:22:56. > :23:01.about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

:23:02. > :23:07.possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

:23:08. > :23:12.asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

:23:13. > :23:18.the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

:23:19. > :23:24.some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

:23:25. > :23:29.the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

:23:30. > :23:35.newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

:23:36. > :23:39.enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

:23:40. > :23:45.their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

:23:46. > :23:55.they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

:23:56. > :24:05.won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

:24:06. > :24:09.fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

:24:10. > :24:14.relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

:24:15. > :24:18.The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

:24:19. > :24:22.against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

:24:23. > :24:28.understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

:24:29. > :24:34.boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

:24:35. > :24:44.Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

:24:45. > :24:53.Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

:24:54. > :24:57.would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

:24:58. > :25:03.compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

:25:04. > :25:07.papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

:25:08. > :25:14.they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

:25:15. > :25:18.regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

:25:19. > :25:23.own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

:25:24. > :25:28.one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

:25:29. > :25:31.expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

:25:32. > :25:36.the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

:25:37. > :25:41.either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

:25:42. > :25:53.approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

:25:54. > :26:01.independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

:26:02. > :26:06.a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

:26:07. > :26:09.Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

:26:10. > :26:13.to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

:26:14. > :26:16.have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

:26:17. > :26:21.expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

:26:22. > :26:26.which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

:26:27. > :26:30.up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

:26:31. > :26:38.potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

:26:39. > :26:44.the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

:26:45. > :26:51.the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

:26:52. > :26:54.it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

:26:55. > :26:59.journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

:27:00. > :27:03.scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

:27:04. > :27:09.that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

:27:10. > :27:13.equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

:27:14. > :27:19.judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

:27:20. > :27:24.saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

:27:25. > :27:29.should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

:27:30. > :27:33.is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

:27:34. > :27:40.what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

:27:41. > :27:44.something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

:27:45. > :27:48.happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

:27:49. > :27:52.circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

:27:53. > :27:56.that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

:27:57. > :28:01.because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

:28:02. > :28:05.That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

:28:06. > :28:12.newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

:28:13. > :28:17.Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

:28:18. > :28:20.outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

:28:21. > :28:25.bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

:28:26. > :28:34.the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

:28:35. > :28:38.guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

:28:39. > :28:42.The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

:28:43. > :28:47.somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

:28:48. > :28:51.can. All right, thanks for being with us.

:28:52. > :28:52.The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

:28:53. > :28:54.has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

:28:55. > :28:58.The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

:28:59. > :29:01.open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

:29:02. > :29:04.The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

:29:05. > :29:07.It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

:29:08. > :29:09.had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

:29:10. > :29:16.At either level three, meaning major pressures,

:29:17. > :29:18.or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

:29:19. > :29:23.On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

:29:24. > :29:27.that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

:29:28. > :29:35.But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

:29:36. > :29:37.He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

:29:38. > :29:42.On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

:29:43. > :29:44.to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

:29:45. > :29:50.paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

:29:51. > :29:53.On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

:29:54. > :29:59.told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

:30:00. > :30:03.And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

:30:04. > :30:07.The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

:30:08. > :30:11.was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

:30:12. > :30:14.And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

:30:15. > :30:21.46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

:30:22. > :30:25.Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

:30:26. > :30:28.opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

:30:29. > :30:35.To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

:30:36. > :30:38.MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

:30:39. > :30:41.life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

:30:42. > :30:51.Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

:30:52. > :30:56.saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

:30:57. > :30:59.enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

:31:00. > :31:02.think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

:31:03. > :31:07.have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

:31:08. > :31:12.still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

:31:13. > :31:17.GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

:31:18. > :31:22.an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

:31:23. > :31:25.is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

:31:26. > :31:29.cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

:31:30. > :31:32.wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

:31:33. > :31:36.forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

:31:37. > :31:46.to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

:31:47. > :31:49.A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

:31:50. > :31:51.play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

:31:52. > :31:54.patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

:31:55. > :31:59.by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

:32:00. > :32:03.hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

:32:04. > :32:08.Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

:32:09. > :32:13.shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

:32:14. > :32:16.or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

:32:17. > :32:24.physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

:32:25. > :32:28.most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

:32:29. > :32:31.don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

:32:32. > :32:35.working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

:32:36. > :32:40.profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

:32:41. > :32:48.Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

:32:49. > :32:51.half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

:32:52. > :32:55.of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

:32:56. > :33:00.working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

:33:01. > :33:04.not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

:33:05. > :33:07.working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

:33:08. > :33:11.if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

:33:12. > :33:17.the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

:33:18. > :33:20.out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

:33:21. > :33:23.runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

:33:24. > :33:28.contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

:33:29. > :33:32.tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

:33:33. > :33:35.the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

:33:36. > :33:39.this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

:33:40. > :33:44.practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

:33:45. > :33:49.there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

:33:50. > :33:52.are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

:33:53. > :33:56.offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

:33:57. > :34:01.they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

:34:02. > :34:04.saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

:34:05. > :34:09.one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

:34:10. > :34:13.keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

:34:14. > :34:16.should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

:34:17. > :34:23.their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

:34:24. > :34:27.upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

:34:28. > :34:32.highly skilled doctor, looking after patients from cradle to grave across

:34:33. > :34:37.the physical, psychological and social, I am not an A doctor. I

:34:38. > :34:41.don't disagree with that, nobody is saying that GPs are not working hard

:34:42. > :34:46.enough. You just did, actually, about some of them. In some

:34:47. > :34:50.practices, what we need to see, it's not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is

:34:51. > :34:55.advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily

:34:56. > :35:00.need to be all on the GPs. I think advanced nurse practitioners are in

:35:01. > :35:04.short supply. Position associate or go to hospital, -- physician

:35:05. > :35:07.associates. We have very few trainees, junior doctors in general

:35:08. > :35:11.practice, unlike hospitals, which tend to have some slack with the

:35:12. > :35:15.junior doctor community and workforce. This isn't an argument,

:35:16. > :35:18.this is about saying, let's stop looking at the National health

:35:19. > :35:25.system as a National hospital system. GPs tomorrow will see about

:35:26. > :35:30.1.3 million patients. That is a lot of thoughtful. A lot of activity

:35:31. > :35:34.with no resources. If you wanted the GPs to behave better, in your terms,

:35:35. > :35:38.when you allocated more money to GPs, part of the reforms, because

:35:39. > :35:43.that's where it went, shouldn't you have targeted it more closely to

:35:44. > :35:46.where they want to operate? That is exactly what the Prime Minister is

:35:47. > :35:50.saying, extra funding is being made available by GPs to extend hours and

:35:51. > :35:53.services. If certain GP practices cannot do that, the money will

:35:54. > :35:58.follow the patient to where they move onto. We have no doctors to do

:35:59. > :36:01.it. I was on a coach last week, the coach driver stopped in the service

:36:02. > :36:06.station for an hour, they were stopping for a rest. We cannot do

:36:07. > :36:13.it. Even if you gave us millions more money, and thankfully NHS is

:36:14. > :36:15.recognising that we need a solution through the five-day week, we

:36:16. > :36:18.haven't got the doctors to deliver this. It would take a while to get

:36:19. > :36:22.them? That's my point, that's why we need to be using all how care

:36:23. > :36:25.professional. Even if you got this right, would it make a difference to

:36:26. > :36:29.what many regard as the crisis in our hospitals? I think it would. If

:36:30. > :36:34.you look at patients, they just want to go to a service that will address

:36:35. > :36:38.the problems. In Scotland for example, pharmacists have their own

:36:39. > :36:41.patient list. Patients go and see the pharmacists first. There are

:36:42. > :36:46.lots of conditions, for example if you want anticoagulants, you don't

:36:47. > :36:51.necessarily need to see a doctor, a pharmacist can manage that and free

:36:52. > :36:54.up the doctor in other ways. The Prime Minister has said that if

:36:55. > :36:58.things do not change she is threatening to reduce funding to

:36:59. > :37:01.doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an

:37:02. > :37:06.empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.

:37:07. > :37:10.We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in

:37:11. > :37:13.our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into

:37:14. > :37:18.general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely

:37:19. > :37:22.wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are

:37:23. > :37:26.lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.

:37:27. > :37:29.We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the

:37:30. > :37:31.subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,

:37:32. > :37:33.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:34. > :37:36.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20

:37:37. > :37:48.minutes: The Week Ahead. Hello and welcome to

:37:49. > :37:50.Sunday Politics in the West. Coming up: Labour leader

:37:51. > :37:52.Jeremy Corbyn has attracted hundreds to rallies in Bristol,

:37:53. > :37:55.but do he and his supporters help It's ladies day on Sunday

:37:56. > :38:02.Politics in the West. David is away on his travels so I'll

:38:03. > :38:05.be with you today alongside the Conservative MP for Devizes,

:38:06. > :38:09.Claire Perry. And Dawn Primarolo, we must call

:38:10. > :38:13.you Baroness Dawn Primarolo, Let's dive into the

:38:14. > :38:21.subject of the week. I want to ask Claire Perry,

:38:22. > :38:26.was Jeremy Corbyn right wehn he said that while the NHS is in crisis,

:38:27. > :38:31.the Prime Minister is in denial? Clearly we want the NHS to work

:38:32. > :38:37.at all times of year and it is really worrying

:38:38. > :38:40.when we hear the stories of people being left on beds and concerns

:38:41. > :38:45.rising overtreatment times. But I talked yesterday to the head

:38:46. > :38:48.of a hospital in Swindon because I wanted to know

:38:49. > :38:52.what was happening on the ground and she said, and I think it's

:38:53. > :38:55.what people are saying right across the country, she said

:38:56. > :38:57.things are really tough, we've had a big spike in people

:38:58. > :39:00.coming into A In fact, the A in the NHS

:39:01. > :39:04.on the Tuesday after Christmas was the busiest it has ever been

:39:05. > :39:06.in NHS history. More people are going,

:39:07. > :39:09.more money is being spent, more people are being seen and,

:39:10. > :39:11.of course, there will be times when it does get busier,

:39:12. > :39:14.but so far it seems to be doing its job and it doesn't mean

:39:15. > :39:20.that things can't improve. The biggest thing, and I think Dawn

:39:21. > :39:23.will agree, is trying to link up the NHS and social care better

:39:24. > :39:27.because the people who are going into A who really do require

:39:28. > :39:29.treatment and going into hospital are often the frail elderly

:39:30. > :39:32.who then need to come out It always happens

:39:33. > :39:38.at this time of year. The humanitarian crisis language,

:39:39. > :39:42.was that too strong? Well, I wouldn't have

:39:43. > :39:45.described it that way, but I think we can all agree

:39:46. > :39:50.that the NHS is under huge pressure. It has the winter crisis,

:39:51. > :39:52.it's not properly funded, we are falling behind our European

:39:53. > :39:56.partners, less beds, less doctors, less scanners and we're asking it

:39:57. > :40:01.to do more and more and more. The staff are doing brilliantly,

:40:02. > :40:05.but the government has two face up to the fact that it's not actually

:40:06. > :40:10.giving the NHS enough money for it even to stand

:40:11. > :40:14.still and do what it does today. Let's pause just for a minute

:40:15. > :40:16.because I want to turn to the subject of child safety

:40:17. > :40:19.on the Internet. That's something that Claire Perry

:40:20. > :40:21.here has long been campaigning for and recently she's introduced

:40:22. > :40:24.new clauses in the Digital Economy Bill forcing adult websites

:40:25. > :40:28.to check users are over 18. But how much protection do

:40:29. > :40:33.young people themselves Martin Jones has been

:40:34. > :40:42.to Kingswood to find out. Like most teenagers,

:40:43. > :40:44.these students at Kings Oak Academy All the time when I get home

:40:45. > :40:54.from school until I go to sleep. If I'm not on there then my phone

:40:55. > :40:58.will be next to me. They say they know how

:40:59. > :41:01.to protect themselves. They teach as all the time about

:41:02. > :41:05.Internet safety ever since Year 7. It's been a main thing on the agenda

:41:06. > :41:09.over the years, I would say, and it's pretty much a key part

:41:10. > :41:13.of the curriculum. They tell us how to keep safe just

:41:14. > :41:18.by keeping away from dodgy websites. But there's lots of stuff out there

:41:19. > :41:25.that's frightening or dangerous. You're researching something

:41:26. > :41:27.or you've gone on to a website and maybe something will pop up

:41:28. > :41:30.or advertisement that will show People share things like on Facebook

:41:31. > :41:36.and stuff that I don't I can't help it myself because it's

:41:37. > :41:43.up to them what they share. The new Digital Economy Bill

:41:44. > :41:45.making its way through Parliament contains measures designed

:41:46. > :41:48.to protect them. It forces Internet service providers

:41:49. > :41:52.to block sites that don't have age verification and it bans some types

:41:53. > :41:58.of pornography completely. West MP has been instrumental

:41:59. > :42:03.in making it happen. I would argue very strongly

:42:04. > :42:05.that this is not about censorship or restriction of legal access

:42:06. > :42:09.for adults, it's about proving that those who are consuming that

:42:10. > :42:13.material are indeed over 18. This is simply putting in place

:42:14. > :42:17.the sorts of government regulation and advice and corporate social

:42:18. > :42:22.responsibly behaviour that has John Langley is someone directly

:42:23. > :42:27.affected by Internet regulation. He's now an independent politician,

:42:28. > :42:30.but he's appeared adult films. He thinks responsible producers

:42:31. > :42:36.will welcome the new proposals, I think the responsibility

:42:37. > :42:44.of keeping children safe is down Would we be having this discussion

:42:45. > :42:51.if we were in Amsterdam or Berlin where this stuff is everywhere

:42:52. > :42:53.and people just say, So I think that's going to be

:42:54. > :42:58.the challenge here. Not so much about how it's

:42:59. > :43:01.regulated, it's about how parents Back in Kings Oak Academy,

:43:02. > :43:07.the question is whether the students believe they need more measures

:43:08. > :43:10.like the new bill So, not only children and students,

:43:11. > :43:22.but teach parents as well and how I don't think there's much they can

:43:23. > :43:30.do about it because people always What constitutes OK to some people

:43:31. > :43:35.might not be OK to others so they can't just put a block

:43:36. > :43:38.on certain things without I don't think the

:43:39. > :43:43.government can do much. They can do their best,

:43:44. > :43:46.but I think the best thing to do is probably educate people on how

:43:47. > :43:50.to protect themselves because people If they know how to protect

:43:51. > :43:56.themselves that would be much better Thanks for your thoughts, Jess,

:43:57. > :44:03.Callum Steph and Jamie You can see the Lib Dem candidate

:44:04. > :44:10.for Bath has joined us to talk Hear from you in a minute, but first

:44:11. > :44:18.I want to ask Claire Perry, the measures you want to introduce

:44:19. > :44:21.here, censorship or sensible? Can I apologise, by the way,

:44:22. > :44:25.for wearing the same jacket. I do have other clothes but I

:44:26. > :44:28.haven't hit the January sales yet! Why do we expect the online

:44:29. > :44:37.world to be so different We quite properly, and a government

:44:38. > :44:43.can't achieve it all on its own, it has to be parents and children's

:44:44. > :44:47.safety, teachers are members of the public,

:44:48. > :44:48.everyone understands that. But we ask the world to do certain

:44:49. > :44:51.things in the off-line world. You can't get on a gambling

:44:52. > :44:54.site if you're under 18. That was a law that Dawn's

:44:55. > :44:56.government passed back You have to prove your over 18

:44:57. > :45:00.to access a gambling site. We try not to let kids by fax

:45:01. > :45:03.and alcohol if they're under 18. We don't let them see over 18

:45:04. > :45:10.films if we can help it. So, what I'd always argued,

:45:11. > :45:13.and I think this was very widely supported cross-party,

:45:14. > :45:15.we really have allowed the Internet to be a totally different place

:45:16. > :45:18.and why is that when we know young The problem with this language

:45:19. > :45:26.of censorship is it starts to raise the temperature in what actually

:45:27. > :45:29.is a very simple and sensible and quite small set of measures

:45:30. > :45:32.which are supported, by the way, by 80% of

:45:33. > :45:36.people in the country. The Lib Dems are against this and do

:45:37. > :45:39.think of it as censorship. Well, we think that this will be

:45:40. > :45:45.ineffectual to begin with and nobody wants children

:45:46. > :45:50.to access adult material. As a parent, I'm doubly

:45:51. > :45:54.concerned about that as well. This could be quite dangerous

:45:55. > :45:57.because it gives parents The real big issue online

:45:58. > :46:03.is the fact that there are predators out there who are grooming children

:46:04. > :46:08.for underage sex and this This happens in chat rooms

:46:09. > :46:16.and on social media sites. These don't have adult

:46:17. > :46:19.content on them. The way to control this is to get

:46:20. > :46:22.the parents to actually get involved We are always saying, parents,

:46:23. > :46:27.you should know more. You should be in tune

:46:28. > :46:30.with what your children are doing, It's a lot easier than people think

:46:31. > :46:35.because I've done it myself. For a start, you can activate

:46:36. > :46:37.the parental controls Parents have do understand they can

:46:38. > :46:43.block what children download on their devices as well

:46:44. > :46:47.and the apps that they get. Some apps mentioned on that report

:46:48. > :46:52.from the schoolkids. The parents need to decide what apps

:46:53. > :46:55.they have and be involved with their children to decide

:46:56. > :46:57.what they're allowed Dawn, how do you think this could be

:46:58. > :47:02.made to work because people I think the students you interviewed

:47:03. > :47:12.put it very eloquently. The balance between what

:47:13. > :47:14.the government can do, parental responsibility,

:47:15. > :47:16.but we also have to remember that not all parents know

:47:17. > :47:19.or exercise those controls So I think what absolutely Claire

:47:20. > :47:30.quite clearly put, why should That is from the types

:47:31. > :47:36.of protection be put elsewhere. If we are to crack this link

:47:37. > :47:45.between pornography, explicit, violence and sexual images

:47:46. > :47:53.and domestic violence and have child safety,

:47:54. > :48:01.it's a much more complex issue Claire is not claiming

:48:02. > :48:03.that she has sorted it. That's the key, there's

:48:04. > :48:07.more to look at. One worry I do have

:48:08. > :48:10.is the age verification test People are worried about credit card

:48:11. > :48:13.risks and blackmail. And privacy, which is

:48:14. > :48:18.a very valid concern. I know people realise this,

:48:19. > :48:20.but every keystroke you currently have on the Internet is tracked

:48:21. > :48:23.by somebody and there's a reason why adverts for jackets

:48:24. > :48:25.on sale follow you around. Someone somewhere sees what you're

:48:26. > :48:27.doing on the Internet, so this idea that we operate

:48:28. > :48:31.in a private world is not true. But there was a lot of discussion

:48:32. > :48:34.about this in the Bill and it is the case, as was done

:48:35. > :48:37.with the gambling age verification system,

:48:38. > :48:39.and the mobile phones where you have to prove you're over 18 in order

:48:40. > :48:43.to switch on various adult content sites,

:48:44. > :48:47.this technology does work. Can I just say again,

:48:48. > :48:50.no one is arguing that we make perfect the enemy of the good

:48:51. > :48:56.whenever we have this conversation and surely it is right,

:48:57. > :49:01.as Dawn said, that government should take a lead in this and say

:49:02. > :49:04.we want to make children are safe in the online world

:49:05. > :49:09.as they are in real life. Right, let me bring

:49:10. > :49:10.you in on that as a final point. Very briefly, it is

:49:11. > :49:12.a start, isn't it? Yes, but the trouble is it gives

:49:13. > :49:14.people false confidence. They think that they don't have do

:49:15. > :49:17.do something as parents, but they do because this technology

:49:18. > :49:19.is not proven. Indeed, the bill doesn't

:49:20. > :49:21.actually specify how the age What this government should do

:49:22. > :49:31.is actually support pastoral care offices in school so that parents

:49:32. > :49:34.can be educated and actually We'll have to call time

:49:35. > :49:39.on this one for now, but thank you for your input

:49:40. > :49:42.on that one. The next big electoral test

:49:43. > :49:45.in the West is on May the 4th. For Labour, the county

:49:46. > :49:46.elections in Somerset, Wiltshire and Gloucestershire,

:49:47. > :49:49.ae not great hopes maybe, but the new metro Mayors being

:49:50. > :49:53.chosen in several English cities, So, the selection of a little-known

:49:54. > :49:59.parish councillor for the West of England contest has

:50:00. > :50:02.caused some surprise. Bristol is good for Labour,

:50:03. > :50:11.has thousands of members and many turned out last summer

:50:12. > :50:14.to show their support Getting Jeremy Corbyn re-elected

:50:15. > :50:19.was just the start for many They are now trying

:50:20. > :50:23.to reshape the Labour Party. Momentum activists are getting

:50:24. > :50:26.themselves into position of power in local constituency parties

:50:27. > :50:30.and they mobilised in the contest to choose a candidate for the West

:50:31. > :50:36.of England Metro Mayor election. The selection shows

:50:37. > :50:40.they are succeeding. The shortlist included lawyer Carl

:50:41. > :50:43.Brown and the Labour group leader on Bath North East Somerset Council,

:50:44. > :50:46.Robin Moss, but the clear winner was parish councillor Lesley Mansell

:50:47. > :50:51.who had the backing of Momentum. The party's Bristol chair

:50:52. > :50:56.thinks that swung it. I think it's very likely they did,

:50:57. > :50:59.yes, because they have got Also, they are also simultaneously

:51:00. > :51:04.fully paid-up members So probably, yes, why would they do

:51:05. > :51:10.all this lobbying if it Lesley Mansell works in the NHS

:51:11. > :51:17.as an equalities officer. She plays down the divisions

:51:18. > :51:22.within the party. It's not about Left and it's

:51:23. > :51:25.not about Right either. It's about, we're a Labour Party

:51:26. > :51:28.and we like a family, aren't we? Sometimes families are

:51:29. > :51:32.a bit dysfunctional, but we get along and that's

:51:33. > :51:35.the way it is now for us. Let's face it, there's probably more

:51:36. > :51:38.disunity in the Conservative Party, but we don't hear too much

:51:39. > :51:42.about that in the media. That's echoed by Jeremy Corbyn

:51:43. > :51:46.who warmly welcomes her selection. Momentum is part of the Labour Party

:51:47. > :51:48.and they are members of the Labour Party,

:51:49. > :51:50.obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be able to be

:51:51. > :51:53.active within the party. And they are putting

:51:54. > :51:55.forward a political Let's have that

:51:56. > :52:00.discussion and debate. We select our candidates,

:52:01. > :52:03.we come together and support them as indeed we will campaign

:52:04. > :52:05.to support Lesley Mansell But will the Corbynistas who crowded

:52:06. > :52:12.College Green last summer get out on the streets

:52:13. > :52:17.in the run-up to May's vote? That's what we'll see

:52:18. > :52:20.between now and May. We hope that all of this phalanx

:52:21. > :52:23.of people won't just pay their subscription,

:52:24. > :52:25.so to speak, and vanish. We hope that they will come out

:52:26. > :52:28.and that they will campaign. It is a big test and I think it

:52:29. > :52:34.will be looked at very Again, it's a big test

:52:35. > :52:40.for Jeremy Corbyn, our leader. Meanwhile, those who would like him

:52:41. > :52:43.gone may be disinclined I've talked to many Corbyn opponents

:52:44. > :52:50.in labour who are deeply worried by what's going on but don't

:52:51. > :52:53.want to go public at this point. Their tactic is to leave

:52:54. > :52:55.their leader and supporters in Momentum and their candidate

:52:56. > :52:58.in the West of England to suffer at the polls and hope that electoral

:52:59. > :53:01.embarrassment will bring So, Dawn Primarolo, are you allowing

:53:02. > :53:09.Corbyn to dig his own grave? There's always people

:53:10. > :53:21.who want to speak unattributed. Lesley was properly selected under

:53:22. > :53:23.the laws of the Labour Party to be our candidate and she will set

:53:24. > :53:26.out her agenda about the priorities - jobs, transport,

:53:27. > :53:32.economy - as her platform. Is Momentum helping to call

:53:33. > :53:35.the shots in the Labour Party? Look, every single member

:53:36. > :53:39.who votes in an election is a member of the Labour Party

:53:40. > :53:42.and it is the same as the Conservative Party,

:53:43. > :53:47.people gravitate to groups where they have similar views

:53:48. > :53:51.and that will happen. It's no secret Labour

:53:52. > :53:55.is going through a difficult time electorally, and it will be

:53:56. > :53:58.a challenge, but Labour members have to get out there and make sure

:53:59. > :54:02.that they are working for the candidate and at least

:54:03. > :54:05.the Labour Party is growing. Our membership has doubled,

:54:06. > :54:08.we've attracted young people, unlike the Conservative Party,

:54:09. > :54:12.and people want to change the world and we should be able to work

:54:13. > :54:15.together to produce the results What about that civil war that we've

:54:16. > :54:21.seen in the Labour Party? Is it now bubbling away

:54:22. > :54:25.under the surface? Frankly, to call it

:54:26. > :54:28.a civil war is... Given the Labour Party's

:54:29. > :54:30.history and, indeed, the Conservative Party's history

:54:31. > :54:34.over the decades, about disagreeing What's important for Labour

:54:35. > :54:40.is when your membership overdoubles, people come in with different views

:54:41. > :54:47.and interviews yes and how That's what we've got to do

:54:48. > :55:14.and we've got to do it in Bristol And if Labour doesn't do

:55:15. > :55:19.well on May the 4th? Well, let's wait

:55:20. > :55:20.and see what happens. Every single member of the party

:55:21. > :55:22.should be campaigning to get It will be difficult

:55:23. > :55:26.because the electorate don't necessarily understand properly

:55:27. > :55:28.what the Metro Mayor is. Leslie herself has said

:55:29. > :55:31.there is a challenge to tell people I remember right after the 2010

:55:32. > :55:40.election we also has a whole series of Mayoral proposals right

:55:41. > :55:42.across the country and Bristol was one of the few places

:55:43. > :55:46.that ended up having an elected But the mood seems to be

:55:47. > :55:51.changing quite dramatically. For the last six years,

:55:52. > :55:53.the government has been much more focused on localism,

:55:54. > :55:55.which sounds like a buzzword, but it's about pushing

:55:56. > :55:57.decisions about transport, station improvements, about funding

:55:58. > :56:00.for things like social care, down to a lower level to get it

:56:01. > :56:04.closer to people. It is partly about educating

:56:05. > :56:10.about what this road is, but you can only look to London

:56:11. > :56:13.where we had a very interesting election and I gather

:56:14. > :56:17.Sadiq Khan is doing very well. He's rolling back on some

:56:18. > :56:20.of his pledges but he's really We can see what influence and power

:56:21. > :56:24.you can have as a Metro Mayor. Yes, it's a new role

:56:25. > :56:27.and the Conservative candidate I'm confident they'll do incredibly

:56:28. > :56:33.well, but it's up to them to get out there and market what they would do

:56:34. > :56:37.for the people of this Metro area. Dawn admits Labour

:56:38. > :56:40.is down in the polls. Is this a time when the Tories

:56:41. > :56:43.are rubbing their hands together? No, we have some real

:56:44. > :56:47.challenges in this country. All and I would go away and probably

:56:48. > :56:51.have a conversation about the NHS, I think, because regardless

:56:52. > :56:53.of the politics we have How do you deal with Brexit,

:56:54. > :57:08.which we know is a real So it's up for Labour how they sort

:57:09. > :57:12.out their leadership. It's a shame that some good MPs like

:57:13. > :57:15.Tristram Hunt are stepping down. We heard this week that he is

:57:16. > :57:18.stepping down so Labour is losing some talented people,

:57:19. > :57:21.but it's up to the party to sort We want a good, fair fight

:57:22. > :57:26.in the council elections coming up this year and in the Mayoral

:57:27. > :57:29.collections and we just want to get on with the job of delivering

:57:30. > :57:32.a good Brexit and running It is time to take swift look

:57:33. > :57:37.at the political news A government minister

:57:38. > :57:42.was in Yeovil on Monday. Harriet Baldwin confirmed

:57:43. > :57:44.a ?271 million contract for Leonardo The unions really want to see

:57:45. > :57:53.new aircraft built here. A Swindon MP has called

:57:54. > :57:56.for the proceeds from the sugar tax to be bent

:57:57. > :57:58.getting kids into sport. The levy on sugary

:57:59. > :58:01.drinks comes in in 2018. Justin Tomlinson says

:58:02. > :58:05.sports can is a good Over 200 children here in

:58:06. > :58:09.the holidays and slightly more boys That's something we can

:58:10. > :58:12.learn lessons from. But being active and

:58:13. > :58:16.healthy is so important. Council Tax in Bristol

:58:17. > :58:18.is likely to rise by The mayor also released details

:58:19. > :58:23.of ?64 million worth of cuts Bath could become the first place in

:58:24. > :58:31.Britain to introduce a tourist tax. It would need a change in the law

:58:32. > :58:35.before the council could press ahead but they're asking

:58:36. > :58:43.the government for permission. We've nearly passed

:58:44. > :58:45.a whole political programme without mentioning

:58:46. > :58:48.the "B" word, Brexit. Are you and your colleagues

:58:49. > :59:07.now planning to No, we want a plan. We want the

:59:08. > :59:12.Prime Minister to tell us how we will protect jobs, protect the

:59:13. > :59:16.economy and how we will have trade that isn't burdened with huge

:59:17. > :59:22.tariffs or bureaucratic impediments. We need it now because Article 50

:59:23. > :59:28.will be triggered very soon. Our remaining MPs like you huddled

:59:29. > :59:34.together discussing how you can keep us in the EU? No, anyone who doesn't

:59:35. > :59:39.accept the result has do have a long accept the result has do have a long

:59:40. > :59:45.and hard think about what they are doing in politics because a clear.

:59:46. > :59:52.The challenge is, what is the shape of the Brexit deal? By the way, we

:59:53. > :59:57.don't control it. If we don't get a deal out of Europe, in two years

:59:58. > :00:00.we're out. We then stopped contributing to the EU budget so

:00:01. > :00:05.it's in everyone's interest to come up with a deal and am confident we

:00:06. > :00:10.can as with the fifth largest economy in the world. We will look

:00:11. > :00:17.next week to some flesh on those bones. Thanks to you. That's it from

:00:18. > :00:25.us this week. Thank you to my guests. You saw a brief clip of

:00:26. > :00:30.Jeremy Corbyn in the report earlier. We actually had a long chat with

:00:31. > :00:37.him. If you want to see that you can follow the link on our Twitter

:00:38. > :00:41.account. The on the screen. David is back next week, but for

:00:42. > :00:49.Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump would tone things down

:00:50. > :00:50.after the American election campaign, they may have

:00:51. > :01:03.The period where he has been President-elect will make them think

:01:04. > :01:05.again. The inauguration is coming up on Friday.

:01:06. > :01:07.Never has the forthcoming inauguration of a president been

:01:08. > :01:11.In a moment, we'll talk to a man who knows Mr Trump

:01:12. > :01:14.But first, let's have a look at the press conference

:01:15. > :01:17.Mr Trump gave on Wednesday, in which he took the opportunity

:01:18. > :01:19.to rubbish reports that Russia has obtained compromising information

:01:20. > :01:35.You are attacking our news organisation.

:01:36. > :01:40.Can you give us a chance, you are attacking our news

:01:41. > :01:43.organisation, can you give us a chance to ask a question, sir?

:01:44. > :01:48.As far as Buzzfeed, which is a failing pile of garbage,

:01:49. > :01:52.writing it, I think they're going to suffer the consequences.

:01:53. > :01:55.Does anyone really believe that story?

:01:56. > :01:59.I'm also very much of a germaphobe, by the way.

:02:00. > :02:01.If Putin likes Donald Trump, guess what, folks, that's called

:02:02. > :02:09.The only ones that care about my tax returns are the reporters, OK?

:02:10. > :02:11.Do you not think the American public is concerned?

:02:12. > :02:24.The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first last conference. The Can will he

:02:25. > :02:28.change as President? Because he hasn't changed in the run-up to

:02:29. > :02:32.being inaugurated? I don't think he will commit he doesn't see any point

:02:33. > :02:37.in changing. Why would he change from the personality that just one,

:02:38. > :02:40.as he just said, I just one. All of the bleeding-heart liberals can wail

:02:41. > :02:44.and brush their teeth and say how ghastly that all this, Hillary

:02:45. > :02:48.should have won and so on, but he has got an incredible mandate.

:02:49. > :02:51.Remember, Trump has the House committee has the Senate, he will

:02:52. > :02:55.have the Supreme Court. He has incredible power right now. He

:02:56. > :02:58.doesn't have to listen to anybody. I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago

:02:59. > :03:02.specifically about Twitter, I asked him what the impact was of Twitter.

:03:03. > :03:08.He said, I have 60 million people following me on Twitter. I was able

:03:09. > :03:12.to bypass mainstream media, bypass all modern political convention and

:03:13. > :03:16.talk directly to potential voters. Secondly, I can turn on the TV in

:03:17. > :03:20.the morning, I can see a rival getting all of the airtime, and I

:03:21. > :03:24.can fire off a tweet, for free, as a marketing man he loves that, and,

:03:25. > :03:28.boom, I'm on the news agenda again. He was able to use that

:03:29. > :03:36.magnificently. Twitter to him didn't cost him a dollar. He is going to

:03:37. > :03:44.carry on tweeting in the last six weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump

:03:45. > :03:48.has never had an alcoholic drink a cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by

:03:49. > :03:52.the 70, he has incredible energy and he is incredibly competitive. At his

:03:53. > :03:56.heart, he is a businessman. If you look at him as a political

:03:57. > :04:00.ideologue, you completely missed the point of trouble. Don't take what he

:04:01. > :04:04.says literally, look upon it as a negotiating point that he started

:04:05. > :04:09.from, and try to do business with him as a business person would, and

:04:10. > :04:13.you may be presently surprised so pleasantly surprised. He treats the

:04:14. > :04:16.press and the media entirely differently to any other politician

:04:17. > :04:23.or main politician in that normally the politicians try to get the media

:04:24. > :04:27.off a particular subject, or they try to conciliate with the media. He

:04:28. > :04:33.just comes and punches the media in the nose when he doesn't like them.

:04:34. > :04:37.This could catch on, you know! You are absolutely right, for a start,

:04:38. > :04:44.nobody could accuse him of letting that victory go to his head. You

:04:45. > :04:47.know, he won't say, I will now be this lofty president. He's exactly

:04:48. > :04:50.the same as he was before. What is fascinating is his Laois and ship

:04:51. > :04:55.with the media. I haven't met, and I'm sure you haven't, met a party

:04:56. > :05:01.leader who is obsessed with the media. But they pretend not to be.

:05:02. > :05:08.You know, they state, oh, somebody told me about a column, I didn't

:05:09. > :05:12.read it. He is utterly transparent in his obsession with the media, he

:05:13. > :05:15.doesn't pretend. How that plays out, who knows? It's a completely

:05:16. > :05:21.different dynamic than anyone has seen by. Like he is the issue, he

:05:22. > :05:24.has appointed an unusual Cabinet, that you could criticise in many

:05:25. > :05:28.ways. Nearly all of them are independent people in their own

:05:29. > :05:32.right. A lot of them are wealthy, too. They have their own views. They

:05:33. > :05:38.might not like what he tweaked at 3am, and he does have to deal with

:05:39. > :05:41.his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters, now the Defence Secretary, he might

:05:42. > :05:46.not like what's said about China at three in morning - general matters.

:05:47. > :05:50.This is what gets very conjugated. We cannot imagine here in our

:05:51. > :05:53.political system any kind of appointments like this. Using the

:05:54. > :05:56.wouldn't have a line-up of billionaires of the kind of

:05:57. > :06:00.background that he has chosen -- you simply wouldn't have. But that won't

:06:01. > :06:04.stop him saying and reading what he thinks. Maybe it will cause him some

:06:05. > :06:07.internal issues when the following day he has the square rigged with

:06:08. > :06:15.whatever they think. But he's going to press ahead. Are we any clearer

:06:16. > :06:19.in terms of policy. I know policy hasn't featured hugely in this

:06:20. > :06:25.campaign of 2016. Do we have any really clear idea what Mr Trump is

:06:26. > :06:30.hoping to achieve? He has had some consistent theme going back over 25

:06:31. > :06:33.years. One is a deep scepticism about international trade and the

:06:34. > :06:37.kind of deals that America has been doing over that period. It has been

:06:38. > :06:40.so consistent that is has been hard to spin as something that you say

:06:41. > :06:43.during the course of a campaign of something to get elected.

:06:44. > :06:47.Ultimately, Piers is correct, he won't change. When he won the

:06:48. > :06:50.election committee gave a relatively magnanimous beach. I thought his ego

:06:51. > :06:55.had been sated and he had got what he wanted. He will end up governing

:06:56. > :06:58.as is likely eccentric New York liberal and everything will be fine.

:06:59. > :07:01.In the recent weeks it has come to my attention that that might not be

:07:02. > :07:07.entirely true! LAUGHTER

:07:08. > :07:08.It is a real test of the American system, the Texan bouncers, the

:07:09. > :07:14.foreign policy establishment which is about to have the orthodoxies

:07:15. > :07:18.disrupted -- the checks and balances. I think he has completely

:07:19. > :07:22.ripped up the American political system. Washington as we know it is

:07:23. > :07:28.dead. From his garage do things his way, he doesn't care, frankly, what

:07:29. > :07:31.any of us thinks -- Trump is going to do things his way. If he can

:07:32. > :07:40.deliver for the people who voted for him who fault this disenfranchised,

:07:41. > :07:44.-- who voted for him who felt this disenfranchised. They voted

:07:45. > :07:48.accordingly. They want to see jobs and the economy in good shape, they

:07:49. > :07:52.want to feel secure. They want to feel that immigration has been

:07:53. > :07:56.tightened. If Trump can deliver on those main theme for the rust belt

:07:57. > :08:00.communities of America, I'm telling you, he will go down as a very

:08:01. > :08:03.successful president. All of the offensive rhetoric and the

:08:04. > :08:07.argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it may be will be completely

:08:08. > :08:14.irrelevant. Let me finish with a parochial question. Is it fair to

:08:15. > :08:16.say quite well disposed to this country? And that he would like,

:08:17. > :08:21.that he's up for a speedy free-trade, bilateral free-trade

:08:22. > :08:26.you'll? Think we have to be sensible as the country. Come Friday, he is

:08:27. > :08:29.the president of the United States, the most powerful man and well. He

:08:30. > :08:34.said to me that he feels half British, his mum was born and raised

:08:35. > :08:37.in Scotland until the age of 18, he loves British, his mother used to

:08:38. > :08:42.love watching the Queen, he feels very, you know, I would roll out the

:08:43. > :08:47.red carpet for Trump, let him eat Her Majesty. The crucial point for

:08:48. > :08:53.us as a country is coming -- let him me to Her Majesty. If we can do a

:08:54. > :08:56.speedy deal within an 18 month period, it really sends a message

:08:57. > :08:59.that well but we are back in the game, that is a hugely beneficial

:09:00. > :09:03.thing for this country. Well, a man whose advisers were indicating that

:09:04. > :09:10.maybe he should learn a few things from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn.

:09:11. > :09:12.Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the Andrew Marr Show this morning. --

:09:13. > :09:15.yes, indeed. If you don't win Copeland,

:09:16. > :09:17.and if you don't win Stoke-on-Trent Central,

:09:18. > :09:19.you're toast, aren't you? Our party is going to fight very

:09:20. > :09:23.hard in those elections, as we are in the local elections,

:09:24. > :09:27.to put those policies out there. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:28. > :09:29.the Government on the NHS. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:30. > :09:32.them on the chaos of Brexit. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:33. > :09:34.them on the housing shortage. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:35. > :09:36.them on zero-hours contracts. Is there ever a moment that you look

:09:37. > :09:41.in the mirror and think, you know what, I've done my best,

:09:42. > :09:44.but this might not be for me? I look in the mirror

:09:45. > :09:47.every day and I think, let's go out there and try

:09:48. > :09:50.and create a society where there are opportunities for all,

:09:51. > :09:52.where there aren't these terrible levels of poverty, where

:09:53. > :09:54.there isn't homelessness, where there are houses for all,

:09:55. > :09:56.and where young people aren't frightened of going to university

:09:57. > :09:59.because of the debts they are going to end up

:10:00. > :10:06.with at the end of their course. Mr Corbyn earlier this morning.

:10:07. > :10:09.Steve, would it be fair to say that the mainstream of the Labour Party

:10:10. > :10:13.has now come to the conclusion that they just have to let Mr Corbyn get

:10:14. > :10:18.on with it, that they are not going to try and influence what he does.

:10:19. > :10:23.They will continue to try and have their own views, but it's his show,

:10:24. > :10:26.it's up to him, if it's a mess, he has to live with it and we'll have

:10:27. > :10:30.clean hands? For now, yes. I think they made a mistake when he was

:10:31. > :10:34.first elected to start in some cases tweeting within seconds that it was

:10:35. > :10:38.going to be a disaster, this was Labour MPs. They made a complete

:10:39. > :10:43.mess of that attempted coup in the summer, which strengthened his

:10:44. > :10:47.position. And he did, it gave Corbyn the space with total legitimacy to

:10:48. > :10:52.say that part of the problem is, we're having this public Civil War.

:10:53. > :10:56.In keeping quiet, that disappeared as part of the explanation for why

:10:57. > :11:03.Labour and low in the polls. I think they are partly doing that. But they

:11:04. > :11:06.are also struggling, the so-called mainstream Labour MPs, to decide

:11:07. > :11:10.what the distinctive agenda is. It's one of the many differences with the

:11:11. > :11:14.80s, where you had a group of people sure of what they believed in, they

:11:15. > :11:18.left to form the SDP. What's happening now is that they are

:11:19. > :11:23.leaving politics altogether. That is a crisis of social Democrats all

:11:24. > :11:26.across Europe, including the French Socialists, as we will find out

:11:27. > :11:33.later in the spring. Let Corbyn because then, that's the strategy.

:11:34. > :11:35.There is a weary and sometimes literal resignation from the

:11:36. > :11:38.moderates in the Labour Party. If you talk to them, they are no longer

:11:39. > :11:41.angry, they have always run out of steam to be angry about what's going

:11:42. > :11:45.on. They are just sort of tired and feel that they've just got to see

:11:46. > :11:49.this through now. I think the by-elections will be interesting.

:11:50. > :11:53.When Andrew Marr said, you're toast, and you? I thought, he's never

:11:54. > :11:58.posed! That was right. A quick thought from view? One thing Corbyn

:11:59. > :12:07.has in common with Trump is immunity to bad news. I think he can lose

:12:08. > :12:09.Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long as it is not a sequence of

:12:10. > :12:12.resignations and by-elections afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20

:12:13. > :12:15.Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy what. It may be more trouble if

:12:16. > :12:21.Labour loses the United trade union elections. We are in a period of

:12:22. > :12:25.incredible unpredictability generally in global politics. If you

:12:26. > :12:28.look at the way the next year plays out, if for example brags it was a

:12:29. > :12:31.disaster and it starts to unravel very quickly, Theresa May is

:12:32. > :12:35.attached to that, clearly label would have a great opportunity

:12:36. > :12:39.potentially disease that higher ground, and when Eddie the Tories --

:12:40. > :12:44.Labour would have an opportunity. Is Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed

:12:45. > :12:49.him, what struck me was that he talked about being from, a laughable

:12:50. > :12:53.comparison, but when it is really laughable is this - Hillary Clinton,

:12:54. > :12:58.what were the things she stood for, nobody really knew? What does Trump

:12:59. > :13:01.stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn has the work-out four or five

:13:02. > :13:04.messages and bang, bang, bang. He could still be in business. Thank

:13:05. > :13:06.you for being with us. I'll be back at the same

:13:07. > :13:09.time next weekend. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:10. > :13:11.it's the Sunday Politics.