:01:07. > :01:10.Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven
:01:11. > :01:16.mainly Muslim countries sparks protests at several US airports.
:01:17. > :01:18.In the West: Why are they still at it?
:01:19. > :01:23.why is it not yet last orders for Leave and Remain?
:01:24. > :01:25.Should she have spoken out more strongly?
:01:26. > :01:27.We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage
:01:28. > :01:30.what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's
:01:31. > :01:33.In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,
:01:34. > :01:35.has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze
:01:36. > :01:37.and why it doesn't apply to everybody.
:01:38. > :01:39.And with me, the best and brightest political
:01:40. > :01:41.panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia
:01:42. > :01:43.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:44. > :01:46.It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that
:01:47. > :01:49.Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven
:01:50. > :01:55.President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,
:01:56. > :01:58.Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from
:01:59. > :02:03.where refugees are banned from until further notice.
:02:04. > :02:05.Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban
:02:06. > :02:11.on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.
:02:12. > :02:14.Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out
:02:15. > :02:23.But the ban has sparked protests across the US,
:02:24. > :02:25.as people affected and already in the air were detained
:02:26. > :02:29.US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many
:02:30. > :02:35.At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked
:02:36. > :02:40.about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...
:02:41. > :02:42.Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'
:02:43. > :02:48.The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy
:02:49. > :02:51.on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number
:02:52. > :02:54.of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.
:02:55. > :03:09.Downing Street later issued a statement saying:
:03:10. > :03:11.This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why
:03:12. > :03:14.Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's
:03:15. > :03:20.The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip
:03:21. > :03:24.She wants to see the evidence, she wants
:03:25. > :03:29.to understand precisely what the implications are.
:03:30. > :03:31.She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with
:03:32. > :03:35.President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and
:03:36. > :03:39.understand it, and then will respond to that.
:03:40. > :03:41.I think there are times where, you know, there's always
:03:42. > :03:44.pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.
:03:45. > :03:47.The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it
:03:48. > :03:50.We're joined now from North London by the Conservative
:03:51. > :04:03.Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more
:04:04. > :04:11.vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David
:04:12. > :04:15.just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an
:04:16. > :04:19.appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I
:04:20. > :04:26.wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects
:04:27. > :04:30.our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it
:04:31. > :04:36.is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with
:04:37. > :04:40.Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but
:04:41. > :04:45.she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism
:04:46. > :04:50.about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in
:04:51. > :04:53.Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street
:04:54. > :04:56.spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have
:04:57. > :05:01.not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of
:05:02. > :05:05.criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,
:05:06. > :05:08.so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I
:05:09. > :05:12.wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the
:05:13. > :05:18.moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address
:05:19. > :05:21.things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the
:05:22. > :05:29.hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you
:05:30. > :05:33.like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is
:05:34. > :05:36.about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she
:05:37. > :05:39.should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would
:05:40. > :05:42.have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald
:05:43. > :05:45.Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to
:05:46. > :05:50.understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with
:05:51. > :05:53.the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would
:05:54. > :05:58.engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day
:05:59. > :06:03.temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority
:06:04. > :06:09.population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the
:06:10. > :06:13.biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this
:06:14. > :06:19.temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is
:06:20. > :06:23.wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through
:06:24. > :06:26.and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.
:06:27. > :06:31.It can't be right that a president in that position of power can
:06:32. > :06:36.arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already
:06:37. > :06:41.been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach
:06:42. > :06:45.I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by
:06:46. > :06:58.this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?
:06:59. > :07:04.I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by
:07:05. > :07:08.this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are
:07:09. > :07:11.desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by
:07:12. > :07:15.this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only
:07:16. > :07:18.because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it
:07:19. > :07:23.is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do
:07:24. > :07:29.you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is
:07:30. > :07:32.the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work
:07:33. > :07:37.with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was
:07:38. > :07:39.that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our
:07:40. > :07:45.country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is
:07:46. > :07:49.the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate
:07:50. > :07:53.within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,
:07:54. > :07:57.but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,
:07:58. > :08:01.should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a
:08:02. > :08:07.great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of
:08:08. > :08:09.Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the
:08:10. > :08:14.protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I
:08:15. > :08:20.believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have
:08:21. > :08:24.achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a
:08:25. > :08:27.number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am
:08:28. > :08:30.inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege
:08:31. > :08:36.of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places
:08:37. > :08:39.where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the
:08:40. > :08:49.right place. Thank you for joining us.
:08:50. > :08:55.Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald
:08:56. > :08:59.Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,
:09:00. > :09:04.particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going
:09:05. > :09:10.to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on
:09:11. > :09:14.every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa
:09:15. > :09:20.May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time
:09:21. > :09:25.to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.
:09:26. > :09:33.When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and
:09:34. > :09:38.can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying
:09:39. > :09:42.more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing
:09:43. > :09:45.Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going
:09:46. > :09:48.to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's
:09:49. > :09:54.going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It
:09:55. > :09:59.does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special
:10:00. > :10:02.relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven
:10:03. > :10:07.wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.
:10:08. > :10:12.You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for
:10:13. > :10:16.American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what
:10:17. > :10:21.Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why
:10:22. > :10:25.I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has
:10:26. > :10:30.implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was
:10:31. > :10:36.campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real
:10:37. > :10:39.Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the
:10:40. > :10:44.executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a
:10:45. > :10:49.class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day
:10:50. > :10:55.limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,
:10:56. > :10:59.President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.
:11:00. > :11:02.Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in
:11:03. > :11:10.recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with
:11:11. > :11:14.Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned
:11:15. > :11:19.been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not
:11:20. > :11:23.included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in
:11:24. > :11:26.such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal
:11:27. > :11:35.thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It
:11:36. > :11:41.is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge
:11:42. > :11:45.in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue
:11:46. > :11:51.for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree
:11:52. > :11:55.with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa
:11:56. > :12:01.May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is
:12:02. > :12:06.reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is
:12:07. > :12:11.nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with
:12:12. > :12:16.him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time
:12:17. > :12:20.now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee
:12:21. > :12:26.policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as
:12:27. > :12:30.well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this
:12:31. > :12:34.anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she
:12:35. > :12:38.says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.
:12:39. > :12:43.These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does
:12:44. > :12:47.something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her
:12:48. > :12:51.administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical
:12:52. > :12:56.situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in
:12:57. > :13:01.the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.
:13:02. > :13:03.We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless
:13:04. > :13:07.communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for
:13:08. > :13:11.large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't
:13:12. > :13:15.excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via
:13:16. > :13:20.Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible
:13:21. > :13:24.excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than
:13:25. > :13:28.many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with
:13:29. > :13:32.the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of
:13:33. > :13:36.Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is
:13:37. > :13:42.already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't
:13:43. > :13:44.know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky
:13:45. > :13:48.situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first
:13:49. > :13:51.foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit
:13:52. > :13:53.was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,
:13:54. > :13:55.keen for a new trading relationship with the United States
:13:56. > :13:58.in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated
:13:59. > :14:00.the new US President for his "stunning election victory"
:14:01. > :14:02.but might not have intended to be pictured walking
:14:03. > :14:04.through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping
:14:05. > :14:08.Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade
:14:09. > :14:11.will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President
:14:12. > :14:20.told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister
:14:21. > :14:23.said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries
:14:24. > :14:27.increased their defence spending It's been announced
:14:28. > :14:33.that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,
:14:34. > :14:34.with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead
:14:35. > :14:39.to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as
:14:40. > :14:44.Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's
:14:45. > :14:47.going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear
:14:48. > :14:49.to Donald Trump her continued
:14:50. > :14:55.backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over
:14:56. > :14:57.the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer
:14:58. > :15:00.to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues
:15:01. > :15:04.that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former
:15:05. > :15:19.Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's
:15:20. > :15:24.decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the
:15:25. > :15:28.United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which
:15:29. > :15:32.appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He
:15:33. > :15:36.was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to
:15:37. > :15:44.protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven
:15:45. > :15:50.countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if
:15:51. > :15:56.he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just
:15:57. > :16:00.look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela
:16:01. > :16:06.Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,
:16:07. > :16:09.look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all
:16:10. > :16:15.of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria
:16:16. > :16:19.literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in
:16:20. > :16:23.virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have
:16:24. > :16:28.been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of
:16:29. > :16:33.a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of
:16:34. > :16:37.persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But
:16:38. > :16:41.you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you
:16:42. > :16:45.said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing
:16:46. > :16:52.Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees
:16:53. > :17:00.into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.
:17:01. > :17:04.He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those
:17:05. > :17:08.comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's
:17:09. > :17:14.policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is
:17:15. > :17:17.fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this
:17:18. > :17:26.country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any
:17:27. > :17:31.terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have
:17:32. > :17:36.been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have
:17:37. > :17:40.been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why
:17:41. > :17:44.would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people
:17:45. > :17:48.that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into
:17:49. > :17:53.Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not
:17:54. > :17:57.for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening
:17:58. > :18:02.process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with
:18:03. > :18:07.the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to
:18:08. > :18:10.America, they then go through biometric screening, database
:18:11. > :18:21.screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence
:18:22. > :18:29.agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It
:18:30. > :18:33.is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we
:18:34. > :18:35.have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald
:18:36. > :18:42.Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and
:18:43. > :18:45.then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned
:18:46. > :18:51.he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since
:18:52. > :18:57.you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing
:18:58. > :19:01.you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not
:19:02. > :19:04.asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you
:19:05. > :19:11.take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,
:19:12. > :19:14.of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in
:19:15. > :19:18.terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say
:19:19. > :19:21.it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the
:19:22. > :19:25.world have not been included in this. The point is they have made
:19:26. > :19:30.this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about
:19:31. > :19:37.the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him
:19:38. > :19:41.to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you
:19:42. > :19:45.feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total
:19:46. > :19:50.ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that
:19:51. > :19:54.what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be
:19:55. > :20:01.talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We
:20:02. > :20:07.will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What
:20:08. > :20:14.advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa
:20:15. > :20:17.May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the
:20:18. > :20:21.Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been
:20:22. > :20:27.surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who
:20:28. > :20:30.say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make
:20:31. > :20:34.it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can
:20:35. > :20:38.be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister
:20:39. > :20:44.who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally
:20:45. > :20:49.herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial
:20:50. > :20:53.president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building
:20:54. > :20:58.a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking
:20:59. > :21:02.of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is
:21:03. > :21:07.controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke
:21:08. > :21:12.in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it
:21:13. > :21:15.is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the
:21:16. > :21:20.British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I
:21:21. > :21:24.think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in
:21:25. > :21:28.her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato
:21:29. > :21:34.members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there
:21:35. > :21:39.is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the
:21:40. > :21:42.Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms
:21:43. > :21:50.of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good
:21:51. > :21:54.as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying
:21:55. > :21:58.this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control
:21:59. > :22:02.immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good
:22:03. > :22:07.speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I
:22:08. > :22:10.could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying
:22:11. > :22:17.things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have
:22:18. > :22:20.a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can
:22:21. > :22:25.see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a
:22:26. > :22:28.priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French
:22:29. > :22:34.elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I
:22:35. > :22:37.worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress
:22:38. > :22:43.and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.
:22:44. > :22:48.What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say
:22:49. > :22:51.OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough
:22:52. > :22:57.stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a
:22:58. > :23:01.deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot
:23:02. > :23:07.sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,
:23:08. > :23:11.we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,
:23:12. > :23:16.maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until
:23:17. > :23:20.we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will
:23:21. > :23:24.find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and
:23:25. > :23:28.countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that
:23:29. > :23:33.will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the
:23:34. > :23:37.Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you
:23:38. > :23:41.agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.
:23:42. > :23:46.If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you
:23:47. > :23:50.approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any
:23:51. > :23:56.political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,
:23:57. > :23:59.there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip
:24:00. > :24:04.loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,
:24:05. > :24:09.they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and
:24:10. > :24:13.I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that
:24:14. > :24:16.says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen
:24:17. > :24:21.to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the
:24:22. > :24:26.Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over
:24:27. > :24:31.this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition
:24:32. > :24:36.will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's
:24:37. > :24:40.best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of
:24:41. > :24:46.Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to
:24:47. > :24:55.fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.
:24:56. > :24:59.If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,
:25:00. > :25:03.there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always
:25:04. > :25:09.been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't
:25:10. > :25:14.it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it
:25:15. > :25:19.does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and
:25:20. > :25:21.Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for
:25:22. > :25:22.being with us. It's just gone 11.25,
:25:23. > :25:25.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:25:26. > :25:27.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll
:25:28. > :25:31.be talking to our political panel. First though, the Sunday
:25:32. > :25:41.Politics where you are. We've got a shorter segment
:25:42. > :25:48.for you this week, but ready to pack a lot in are our guests
:25:49. > :25:56.Clive Efford, Labour MP for Eltham, and Chris Philp, Conservative MP
:25:57. > :25:58.for Croydon South. Let's kick off with proposals
:25:59. > :26:01.to devolve more financial powers to the Mayor
:26:02. > :26:03.and the capital's boroughs. The suggestions are contained
:26:04. > :26:07.in the second report of the London Finance
:26:08. > :26:08.Commission, out this week. The first report, you may remember,
:26:09. > :26:11.happened under Mayor Boris Johnson. This one's gone further in what it's
:26:12. > :26:14.asking for: retention of income tax, maybe a share of VAT,
:26:15. > :26:17.as well as control of property taxes And it recommends looking
:26:18. > :26:21.at new taxes like a London tourism The commission chair
:26:22. > :26:25.is Tony Travers. What we're recommending that's
:26:26. > :26:27.different this time is that in the spirit of further devolution,
:26:28. > :26:30.which the Government itself has been talking about,
:26:31. > :26:32.the possibility of greater health devolution, skills and further
:26:33. > :27:28.education, possibly more transport They've launched a new news
:27:29. > :27:31.website and are considering If we want to organise
:27:32. > :27:36.a rally, if we want to give information on what's
:27:37. > :27:41.happening, we have a massive following, so we can touch a lot
:27:42. > :27:44.of people through our messaging. A recent rally in Bristol
:27:45. > :27:47.drew hundreds to And it's unfair that my generation
:27:48. > :27:54.should have to leave the EU, when we didn't get to vote
:27:55. > :27:57.on it in the first place. Whether you can overthrow
:27:58. > :28:02.Brexit itself, I don't know. We have to fight for the best
:28:03. > :28:03.conditions, I'm ready to bend
:28:04. > :28:07.anybody's hear about this. We don't know what we are
:28:08. > :28:11.letting ourselves in for. And at Bath University
:28:12. > :28:15.this week, the man who wrote Article 50 is now
:28:16. > :28:28.drawing huge crowds. And at Bath University
:28:29. > :28:30.this week, the man who wrote Article 50 is now
:28:31. > :28:32.drawing huge crowds. When he wrote it, as a senior
:28:33. > :28:35.diplomat, he never imagined And he still believes
:28:36. > :28:38.Brexit could be stopped. You can't ask 48% of the country
:28:39. > :28:42.to stay at home and shut up. Everybody who took
:28:43. > :28:43.part in the debate Some Leavers would say,
:28:44. > :28:49.this question is Now we need to discover
:28:50. > :28:54.what being outside is. Can we have our cake and eat it?
:28:55. > :28:57.We were told we could. And for many, there
:28:58. > :29:02.is a simple reason why the debates and campaigns
:29:03. > :29:05.are still so passionate. The ballot paper in
:29:06. > :29:09.the European referendum. But it turns out that interpreting
:29:10. > :29:12.the result For many Brexiteers,
:29:13. > :29:17.Leave means not just leaving the EU, but the customs union, the single
:29:18. > :29:24.market, and plenty else besides. For Remainers, Leave
:29:25. > :29:26.means an agreement to depart. It wasn't a decision
:29:27. > :29:27.about the destination. And while there is still
:29:28. > :29:29.that argument about what the result means,
:29:30. > :29:31.people will always want Let's pick up on a few of those
:29:32. > :29:40.issues and talk about them. Julie Girling, you're
:29:41. > :29:44.a Conservative MEP. Are you getting the cold shoulder
:29:45. > :29:46.over there from your We are still very much
:29:47. > :29:51.part of the mainstream. I've always been
:29:52. > :29:54.an MEP who worke hard on committee, I saw my role
:29:55. > :29:57.as making sure that European legislation is fit for purpose
:29:58. > :29:59.for the UK. You told me when I met
:30:00. > :30:02.you in Strasbourg last year that, if it went the wrong way for you,
:30:03. > :30:06.you'd have nothing much to do. Well, that's clearly not the case,
:30:07. > :30:09.because what's happened is, we have no clear view whether we're
:30:10. > :30:12.in or out of the single market. We don't know what the trade
:30:13. > :30:15.deal's going to be. So we have no idea whether we
:30:16. > :30:18.are going to be subject So I work on the basis,
:30:19. > :30:21.business as usual. We are in there until the day we
:30:22. > :30:25.leave and I carry on doing my job. You saw Lord Kerr,
:30:26. > :30:29.who is a retired senior diplomat. So, as he says, if we can't
:30:30. > :30:39.have our cake and eat it, Do you accept that
:30:40. > :30:43.might be a good idea? Well, there was a poll last week
:30:44. > :30:46.and, out of the people who have voted Remain,
:30:47. > :30:49.only 49% were unhappy And 51% said that they don't want
:30:50. > :30:56.a second referendum. And we have what were
:30:57. > :31:09.reluctant Remainers, who had listened to Project Fear,
:31:10. > :31:13.and voted Remain because of it, I just want to pick up
:31:14. > :31:21.on what Lord Kerr said. He wrote Article 50,
:31:22. > :31:24.or helped to draft it. He said, "We can change our minds
:31:25. > :31:27.and, if the benefits aren't there, "it might be sensible
:31:28. > :31:29.to think about that." I just wondered
:31:30. > :31:35.what your opinion was. We believe once Article 50 has
:31:36. > :31:46.been invoked, that's it. And so, this has
:31:47. > :31:48.a different...say on it. So, if it turns out that
:31:49. > :31:51.Project Fear, as you like to call them, were right, you don't think
:31:52. > :31:54.there should be a second chance No, I don't.
:31:55. > :31:58.We've had a referendum. We were told it would be
:31:59. > :32:12.a binding referendum. Nigel Farage told us before the
:32:13. > :32:17.referendum that if he lost he would not give up, you keep asking for
:32:18. > :32:20.another referendum. And now he expects everybody else to shut up.
:32:21. > :32:25.Are you sitting around in little huddles in Europe working out how to
:32:26. > :32:31.thwart what appears to be the will of the people? Not at all. It
:32:32. > :32:36.doesn't work like that, does it? I don't know. We had a very clear
:32:37. > :32:39.signal in the referendum. Everybody accepts that. But one question was
:32:40. > :32:44.asked. It was a very simple question. Everybody interested in
:32:45. > :32:47.what is going to happen next, and what the deal is going to be. I
:32:48. > :32:51.don't understand why people are so frightened to ask people what they
:32:52. > :32:54.think of the final deal, when it comes. What is wrong with that? It
:32:55. > :33:00.is so complex, people have the is so complex, people have the
:33:01. > :33:04.right, I think, to comment on it. It is just Brexit, not hard, soft or
:33:05. > :33:09.whatever Brexit. The people who voted to leave voted so that they
:33:10. > :33:13.could retain control over their borders. They wanted to make their
:33:14. > :33:17.own laws. They wanted to stop sending money to the EU, and they
:33:18. > :33:24.wanted to make their own free-trade agreements. None of that was on the
:33:25. > :33:28.ballot paper. There was no clear Brexit manifesto. It was made clear
:33:29. > :33:33.by Cameron, Osborne, it was made clear by Michael Gove. And they all
:33:34. > :33:40.said, if you vote to leave it means leaving the single market. We are
:33:41. > :33:44.running out of time on this discussion, but now that the courts
:33:45. > :33:47.have decided that it has to go to Parliament before Article 50 can be
:33:48. > :33:54.triggered, do you think it is right that MPs should vote on their
:33:55. > :33:58.conscience and vote against it? I believe MPs should consider very
:33:59. > :34:01.carefully. They shouldn't just vote with what their constituency voted
:34:02. > :34:06.weigh up the pros and cons, and the weigh up the pros and cons, and the
:34:07. > :34:09.most important thing for parliamentarians, they sit in our
:34:10. > :34:14.Parliament, if they wish to be sovereign, they should be asserting
:34:15. > :34:24.that on my behalf are your behalf. We have the right, in my view, to be
:34:25. > :34:27.consulted before and after the deal and Article 50. Should they vote
:34:28. > :34:34.against it? If they believe it is the right thing to do. Julia? They
:34:35. > :34:38.voted 6-1 on the referendum -- on the Referendum Bill to say that the
:34:39. > :34:44.decision to be that of the British people. So I think they should
:34:45. > :34:50.honour that,... They represent the British people. We vote for them to
:34:51. > :34:53.represent us. What is wrong, why are you so frightened of giving
:34:54. > :34:56.Parliament the opportunity of having a say in how the deal should be
:34:57. > :35:02.negotiated and saying at the end whether it is a good deal? Why are
:35:03. > :35:06.you so scared of that? If it had been Leave against Remain on a
:35:07. > :35:11.constituency basis as if it was for a general election, then Leave would
:35:12. > :35:16.have won overwhelmingly. That doesn't answer the question. It
:35:17. > :35:21.tells you that the majority of MPs are in constituencies where people
:35:22. > :35:25.voted to leave. That tells you do something about the British
:35:26. > :35:31.electrician system. -- election system. Let's have a look at the
:35:32. > :35:42.political news in the West in 60 seconds. Here is our Martin. There
:35:43. > :35:48.were protests in Bath this week as councillors finally decided where to
:35:49. > :35:51.put a new park and ride. But campaigners are still not happy.
:35:52. > :35:56.Pretty upset but I suppose it was inevitable. We didn't think we were
:35:57. > :36:02.ever going to shift the opinion of this council, try as we might. The
:36:03. > :36:06.director of GCHQ Edmonston these quitting his job. Robert Hannigan
:36:07. > :36:11.has run the government intelligence agency in Cheltenham since 2014. He
:36:12. > :36:15.says that it is for family and health reasons. This new road in
:36:16. > :36:19.Taunton could cost taxpayers ?10 million. It is two years behind
:36:20. > :36:23.schedule with Somerset County Council and its contractor locked in
:36:24. > :36:30.a legal row. The loser faces a hefty bill. Bristol West MP confirmed she
:36:31. > :36:37.would vote against triggering Article 50, in defiance of Labour
:36:38. > :36:42.Leader Jeremy Corbyn. It came after Kerry McCarthy told us last week
:36:43. > :36:47.that she would likely do the same. That was the week in 60 seconds.
:36:48. > :36:55.Again, let's return to the chat about Europe. Labour obviously
:36:56. > :36:59.having great problems over this debate. Conservative MPs have been
:37:00. > :37:06.relatively quiet. When is your party going to have its next punch-up?
:37:07. > :37:11.Everyone is distracted by what is happening in labour which is just a
:37:12. > :37:16.complete train crash. But we are not talking about labour, we are talking
:37:17. > :37:19.about you and the King -- the history of rows that the
:37:20. > :37:24.Conservative Party has had about the EU? It has always been a very toxic
:37:25. > :37:28.issue for us, it still is, but we are more disciplined and holding it
:37:29. > :37:34.together. I'm not in the House of Commons, so I'm not party to the
:37:35. > :37:38.daily chat. But we do have Conservative MPs. I live in a
:37:39. > :37:44.constituency that voted to remain. My MP is a Brexiteer. How is he
:37:45. > :37:49.going to vote taking the point that you go with your constituency? We
:37:50. > :37:55.are not without our own issues. You go with a vote of the nation. Let's
:37:56. > :37:57.talk about future trade. We know that the Prime Minister is in
:37:58. > :38:04.Washington talking to President Trump. Would you be prepared to
:38:05. > :38:10.lower standards of food production, say, in order to get a free-trade
:38:11. > :38:17.deal with the United States? No, no. Already at the moment, figures show
:38:18. > :38:23.that the United States is the biggest importer of our goods. So,
:38:24. > :38:27.if they are quite happy to import our goods to the standard they have
:38:28. > :38:33.at the moment. It is their stuff coming in. Would you take stuff of a
:38:34. > :38:37.lower standard, for example, chickens washed in chlorine, which
:38:38. > :38:42.would not pass EU regulations? Mirror. It is the same with growth
:38:43. > :38:48.hormones. They are allowed to use growth hormones to make their
:38:49. > :38:54.animals to choose more milk. So why, then, are we turning our back on the
:38:55. > :38:59.EU? Because it is easier to note -- to negotiate a bilateral trade deal
:39:00. > :39:03.with just two countries than for one country, seeing the problem with
:39:04. > :39:14.Canada, it has taken years to Canada to negotiate a trade deal because it
:39:15. > :39:18.has 28 countries. Bilateral trade deals, yes, but I'm saying it is
:39:19. > :39:22.very difficult, the EU has not been very successful, because it is not a
:39:23. > :39:27.bilateral trade deal. They have to have 28 countries in agreement. We
:39:28. > :39:31.have seen what happened with the Canadian one. Some people in Belgium
:39:32. > :39:36.decided they did not want some particular aspect of it. Do you get
:39:37. > :39:40.the sense that our EU partners are likely to punish us for wanting to
:39:41. > :39:44.leave and give us a bad deal? I would not use the word punish. I
:39:45. > :39:48.don't think there is any and tension to be punitive. What I think they
:39:49. > :39:52.are saying is, we're not going to give you a deal that makes it better
:39:53. > :39:57.and easier for you to be outside than on the inside. Even if it
:39:58. > :40:02.causes them to lose out, to lose jobs. They will make a calculation
:40:03. > :40:07.on that basis. Everybody on the Leave side is saying that we are too
:40:08. > :40:11.big a trading partner to throw away. Don't you believe it. The odds are
:40:12. > :40:18.not stacked in that direction. We are one country, they are 27. Thank
:40:19. > :40:28.you. That is it from a smack this week, thank you to my guests, Julie
:40:29. > :40:30.Girling and Doctor Julia Reed. We are shorter today because of the
:40:31. > :40:31.football, as you know. air-pollution. Thank you for being
:40:32. > :40:37.here. Welcome back and let's get back
:40:38. > :40:41.to Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven
:40:42. > :40:47.mainly Muslim countries. Earlier, the Labour leader,
:40:48. > :40:50.Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state visit by President Trump to the UK
:40:51. > :41:03.should not go ahead I think it would be totally wrong
:41:04. > :41:08.for him to be coming here while that situation is going on. He has to be
:41:09. > :41:12.challenged on this. So until the ban is lifted, you don't think he should
:41:13. > :41:16.come? I am not happy about him coming here until the ban is lifted.
:41:17. > :41:21.Look at what is happening with those countries. What will be the long
:41:22. > :41:26.term effect of this on the rest of the world? Is this state visit going
:41:27. > :41:32.to become a matter of huge political debate in this country? It would be
:41:33. > :41:36.anyway, but it is a temporary ban, so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe
:41:37. > :41:40.territory. It will be over by April and he is not due to come until
:41:41. > :41:45.summer. But there are three bands. There is the 90 day ban on people
:41:46. > :41:49.coming from the southern countries. There is the 120 day ban on refugees
:41:50. > :41:53.from anywhere in the world, and there is the indefinite ban on
:41:54. > :41:59.Syrian refugees. So there may still be some bans in place. But bear in
:42:00. > :42:03.mind the number of Syrian refugees and refugees from around the world
:42:04. > :42:06.that President Obama took over his eight years. There were years when
:42:07. > :42:12.it was not even up to 50 Syrian refugees that were taken since the
:42:13. > :42:17.civil war has started. This is an ongoing American policy. 12,500
:42:18. > :42:26.Syrian refugees have come in the last year. Before that, it was a
:42:27. > :42:29.hundred and sometimes under 50. But they are reasonable numbers now,
:42:30. > :42:35.although not something America couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is
:42:36. > :42:39.discovering that being a president is different from being a business
:42:40. > :42:42.man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn the art of leadership, having been a
:42:43. > :42:48.backbench MP, and has struggled to do it, as we are about to discuss
:42:49. > :42:52.with article 50. With this, you have to dramatise the politics of this,
:42:53. > :42:56.and this is what he has done with that statement. Most controversial
:42:57. > :43:01.ever state visit now? I would imagine so. Even regardless of any
:43:02. > :43:06.opposition from the opposition to trump's physical presence in the
:43:07. > :43:11.streets, the presence of demonstrators will be an
:43:12. > :43:15.international new story. If trump's demands for the details of the visit
:43:16. > :43:18.are quite as extreme and as picky as some of the Sunday papers have
:43:19. > :43:22.suggested, that could also be the source of controversy. What do you
:43:23. > :43:27.have in mind? Isn't he anxious that only certain members of the Royal
:43:28. > :43:33.Family turn up? He doesn't want a one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who
:43:34. > :43:40.would, though! Some people may be sympathetic on that. It is the one
:43:41. > :43:44.subject where he is in line with British opinion. Playing golf in
:43:45. > :43:48.front of the Queen may be a higher priority. We have to be realistic.
:43:49. > :43:51.Given the other people from around the world that the Queen has played
:43:52. > :43:55.host to, like the Chinese president and Saudi kings and the like, we
:43:56. > :44:01.have had a lot worse come to visit than Donald Trump. Brexit - how
:44:02. > :44:05.serious our neighbour's problems on this? Very serious, but they often
:44:06. > :44:12.are with Europe. Labour were splits when we joined in the 70s, and still
:44:13. > :44:15.won general elections, in 1974 and 1975. There were all over the place
:44:16. > :44:19.in terms of the single currency. Blair said one thing one day and the
:44:20. > :44:25.opposite the next day. Brown did the same.
:44:26. > :44:34.Brown usually set the opposite of what Blair said! They won landslide
:44:35. > :44:37.because they have the political skills to put all of the pressure on
:44:38. > :44:42.the major government, even though their position on the single
:44:43. > :44:47.currency was the same as major's. It is about with Europe the art of
:44:48. > :44:51.leadership. You have to be a political conjuror, you have to
:44:52. > :44:55.dissemble authoritative leak when you lead a divided party over
:44:56. > :44:59.Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his personal credit cannot dissemble,
:45:00. > :45:04.but he's not an individual person on this. He's leading a split party in
:45:05. > :45:10.danger of falling apart, and you need the skills of a political
:45:11. > :45:13.conjurer. Clearly self-evidently he's not displaying it because we
:45:14. > :45:18.are talking about the chaotic split which will manifest itself in that
:45:19. > :45:22.vote on Article 50. Labour and the SNP and the Lib Dems too I would
:45:23. > :45:26.have thought will all put amendments down to the short Article 50 piece
:45:27. > :45:33.of legislation. Do they have any chance of succeeding? No substantial
:45:34. > :45:37.world is changing amendments. I don't think Theresa May has much to
:45:38. > :45:41.worry about actually. I think if anything the reason she's pushed the
:45:42. > :45:45.legal appeal is that it helps her to have a big chunk of the media and a
:45:46. > :45:51.big chunk of public opinion worrying that the popular will of last year
:45:52. > :45:54.is in danger of being overturned and so even if it was a completely
:45:55. > :45:59.hopeless legal appeal, it generated headlines for a week that as an
:46:00. > :46:03.incumbent Prime Minister trying to execute believe vote suits you
:46:04. > :46:07.politically. I think it is a much bigger problem for Labour, we've
:46:08. > :46:12.already seen some Shadow Cabinet issues in the previous week. You
:46:13. > :46:17.have got to remember it's not just a majority of Labour MPs that want to
:46:18. > :46:22.stay in the European Union, but a majority of Labour constituencies,
:46:23. > :46:26.and a majority of labour macro voters wanted to stay as well so we
:46:27. > :46:30.have three lines of division. One amendment that might get through if
:46:31. > :46:33.it was called, and it is in the hands of the Deputy speaker who will
:46:34. > :46:38.be chairing these debates, and that will be an amendment that said
:46:39. > :46:44.regardless of how the Europeans treat our citizens in Europe, all EU
:46:45. > :46:50.citizens here will be afforded full rights to remain. That might get
:46:51. > :46:56.through. It may indeed and lots of backbench MPs would backpack. We all
:46:57. > :47:01.know there will not be mass deportations, it is not legal, it
:47:02. > :47:05.won't happen, it is simply a negotiating tactic. I agree with
:47:06. > :47:09.those who say you shouldn't be using people as a negotiating tactic, but
:47:10. > :47:14.the reality as it is the EU leaders that are doing that because it's
:47:15. > :47:18.already been offered. The remain as should be attacking the EU
:47:19. > :47:23.governments for not offering that in return. Article 50 is the easy bit
:47:24. > :47:26.for her. I agree with other members of the panel that she will get it
:47:27. > :47:31.through and the court case almost helps her by getting an easy journey
:47:32. > :47:35.through Parliament, then it gets really difficult. All of this has
:47:36. > :47:41.been a preamble and once she begins that nightmarish negotiation, there
:47:42. > :47:47.will be opportunities for a smart opposition to make quite a lot of
:47:48. > :47:53.the turmoil to come. Whether Labour are capable of that, let's wait and
:47:54. > :47:57.see. The divisions in Labour are nightmarish for them but by no means
:47:58. > :48:02.unprecedented. Arguably it was much more complicated in the early 1970s
:48:03. > :48:10.when you had Titans on either side, big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony
:48:11. > :48:16.Benn... Michael Foot, they were all at it. The fundamental issue of in
:48:17. > :48:22.or out, and they won two elections, so you have got to be really clever.
:48:23. > :48:24.But also how money more Labour MPs will resign. We shall find out this
:48:25. > :48:26.week. The Daily Politics is back
:48:27. > :48:30.tomorrow at midday and all I'll be back here
:48:31. > :48:33.on BBC one next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,
:48:34. > :49:07.it's the Sunday Politics. a free five-a-side tournament
:49:08. > :49:21.that's for everyone. For more information,
:49:22. > :49:25.go to the Get Inspired website.