:00:40. > :00:43.Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his
:00:44. > :00:46.impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.
:00:47. > :00:55.The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.
:00:56. > :00:58.But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?
:00:59. > :01:04.Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.
:01:05. > :01:09.And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election
:01:10. > :01:12.later this month, where Ukip is looking to give
:01:13. > :01:14.In the West: The sweet smell of success.
:01:15. > :01:17.Can West Country businesses have their cake and eat it,
:01:18. > :01:34.And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise
:01:35. > :01:40.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.
:01:41. > :01:46.I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.
:01:47. > :01:49.So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability
:01:50. > :01:55.to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain
:01:56. > :02:02.The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views
:02:03. > :02:05.in front of an audience of students at Reading University
:02:06. > :02:22.This may not be popular with some people in this audience -
:02:23. > :02:26.I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,
:02:27. > :02:29.partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,
:02:30. > :02:34.and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,
:02:35. > :02:36.and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies
:02:37. > :02:39.of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big
:02:40. > :02:50.Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does
:02:51. > :02:55.he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,
:02:56. > :02:59.it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether
:03:00. > :03:03.there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the
:03:04. > :03:08.last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have
:03:09. > :03:15.the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy
:03:16. > :03:24.Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who
:03:25. > :03:30.pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had
:03:31. > :03:33.enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell
:03:34. > :03:38.the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running
:03:39. > :03:45.commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit
:03:46. > :03:47.negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone
:03:48. > :03:52.maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well
:03:53. > :03:58.prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --
:03:59. > :04:02.David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his
:04:03. > :04:06.position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of
:04:07. > :04:14.excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a
:04:15. > :04:20.guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical
:04:21. > :04:24.lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know
:04:25. > :04:34.his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has
:04:35. > :04:39.given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour
:04:40. > :04:43.which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a
:04:44. > :04:48.class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready
:04:49. > :04:53.replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not
:04:54. > :04:57.force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and
:04:58. > :05:03.the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is
:05:04. > :05:08.untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to
:05:09. > :05:11.fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he
:05:12. > :05:18.will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It
:05:19. > :05:22.will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to
:05:23. > :05:26.someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to
:05:27. > :05:29.life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,
:05:30. > :05:33.whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of
:05:34. > :05:40.Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a
:05:41. > :05:47.mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the
:05:48. > :05:50.referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to
:05:51. > :05:55.debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He
:05:56. > :06:00.chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no
:06:01. > :06:07.desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind
:06:08. > :06:13.of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he
:06:14. > :06:21.doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.
:06:22. > :06:25.Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into
:06:26. > :06:28.his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think
:06:29. > :06:32.that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of
:06:33. > :06:36.Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.
:06:37. > :06:42.Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving
:06:43. > :06:47.like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine
:06:48. > :06:50.doing that. It is good he is different.
:06:51. > :06:54.The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50
:06:55. > :06:55.and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through
:06:56. > :07:00.Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote
:07:01. > :07:01.with their conscience, their constituency,
:07:02. > :07:05.Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,
:07:06. > :07:07.is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.
:07:08. > :07:12.So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:
:07:13. > :07:14.Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,
:07:15. > :07:17.we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.
:07:18. > :07:22.It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.
:07:23. > :07:30.On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill
:07:31. > :07:32.was voted through by the House of Commons.
:07:33. > :07:41.The bill left the Labour Party divided.
:07:42. > :07:43.Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result
:07:44. > :07:46.of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -
:07:47. > :07:49.But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip
:07:50. > :08:05.That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
:08:06. > :08:07.Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,
:08:08. > :08:10.the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.
:08:11. > :08:12.However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,
:08:13. > :08:14.even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.
:08:15. > :08:16.The Conservative Party were much more united.
:08:17. > :08:19.The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.
:08:20. > :08:21.Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.
:08:22. > :08:23.His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.
:08:24. > :08:25.The bill will now go to the House of Lords -
:08:26. > :08:39.peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.
:08:40. > :08:41.Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at
:08:42. > :08:44.He's got a book out next month called
:08:45. > :08:46.Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.
:08:47. > :08:55.Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the
:08:56. > :08:58.referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now
:08:59. > :09:04.becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it
:09:05. > :09:08.certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics
:09:09. > :09:12.more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left
:09:13. > :09:16.and right division has been making way for a new division, between
:09:17. > :09:19.essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an
:09:20. > :09:24.incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so
:09:25. > :09:30.it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is
:09:31. > :09:35.that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social
:09:36. > :09:39.democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,
:09:40. > :09:44.that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to
:09:45. > :09:48.know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at
:09:49. > :09:53.what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at
:09:54. > :10:00.by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the
:10:01. > :10:04.Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the
:10:05. > :10:08.possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to
:10:09. > :10:12.be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are
:10:13. > :10:17.traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving
:10:18. > :10:21.the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not
:10:22. > :10:26.just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would
:10:27. > :10:29.become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a
:10:30. > :10:34.party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S
:10:35. > :10:39.seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the
:10:40. > :10:44.cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can
:10:45. > :10:47.seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the
:10:48. > :10:53.traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are
:10:54. > :10:57.offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social
:10:58. > :11:00.Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not
:11:01. > :11:05.saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of
:11:06. > :11:08.stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often
:11:09. > :11:12.gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you
:11:13. > :11:19.look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German
:11:20. > :11:23.Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a
:11:24. > :11:28.referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on
:11:29. > :11:32.April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of
:11:33. > :11:37.social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by
:11:38. > :11:40.that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would
:11:41. > :11:47.still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are
:11:48. > :11:50.trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who
:11:51. > :11:55.think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very
:11:56. > :12:01.difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of
:12:02. > :12:04.coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.
:12:05. > :12:10.Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather
:12:11. > :12:14.than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European
:12:15. > :12:20.Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now
:12:21. > :12:26.seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the
:12:27. > :12:30.issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue
:12:31. > :12:34.of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015
:12:35. > :12:40.or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the
:12:41. > :12:44.so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It
:12:45. > :12:49.is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,
:12:50. > :12:53.to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that
:12:54. > :12:58.cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might
:12:59. > :12:59.go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.
:13:00. > :13:03.Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House
:13:04. > :13:05.of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill
:13:06. > :13:08.in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged
:13:09. > :13:11.the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker
:13:12. > :13:13.with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin
:13:14. > :13:15.went one further - mooting the possibility
:13:16. > :13:17.of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate
:13:18. > :13:19.the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question
:13:20. > :13:27.in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government
:13:28. > :13:30.time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end
:13:31. > :13:34.of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this
:13:35. > :13:36.House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale
:13:37. > :13:46.reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins
:13:47. > :13:59.me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let
:14:00. > :14:03.win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a
:14:04. > :14:07.matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's
:14:08. > :14:12.remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running
:14:13. > :14:17.commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as
:14:18. > :14:25.speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about
:14:26. > :14:28.nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some
:14:29. > :14:32.opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any
:14:33. > :14:38.particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.
:14:39. > :14:42.I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I
:14:43. > :14:47.have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he
:14:48. > :14:50.handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is
:14:51. > :14:55.some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come
:14:56. > :15:01.on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have
:15:02. > :15:05.you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its
:15:06. > :15:14.job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,
:15:15. > :15:18.Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has
:15:19. > :15:23.to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the
:15:24. > :15:27.House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and
:15:28. > :15:32.expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all
:15:33. > :15:36.of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say
:15:37. > :15:42.scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking
:15:43. > :15:47.carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,
:15:48. > :15:51.hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable
:15:52. > :15:55.expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,
:15:56. > :16:00.to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that
:16:01. > :16:03.the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is
:16:04. > :16:08.seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper
:16:09. > :16:12.House and the House of Lords performs it pretty
:16:13. > :16:23.Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first
:16:24. > :16:29.clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go
:16:30. > :16:35.ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,
:16:36. > :16:42.this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.
:16:43. > :16:47.There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got
:16:48. > :16:50.through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are
:16:51. > :16:55.you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?
:16:56. > :16:59.No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of
:17:00. > :17:03.amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all
:17:04. > :17:07.drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.
:17:08. > :17:15.This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or
:17:16. > :17:20.not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of
:17:21. > :17:29.it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the
:17:30. > :17:32.British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons
:17:33. > :17:37.voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by
:17:38. > :17:42.the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that
:17:43. > :17:46.when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before
:17:47. > :17:51.parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been
:17:52. > :17:56.an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government
:17:57. > :17:59.has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the
:18:00. > :18:04.amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on
:18:05. > :18:07.whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the
:18:08. > :18:13.House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact
:18:14. > :18:18.I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should
:18:19. > :18:22.think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of
:18:23. > :18:28.British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on
:18:29. > :18:30.clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you
:18:31. > :18:34.concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go
:18:35. > :18:41.back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned
:18:42. > :18:46.that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?
:18:47. > :18:51.Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of
:18:52. > :18:54.ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords
:18:55. > :18:59.failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It
:19:00. > :19:03.would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of
:19:04. > :19:09.us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole
:19:10. > :19:14.country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a
:19:15. > :19:18.rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,
:19:19. > :19:22.that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts
:19:23. > :19:27.to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that
:19:28. > :19:34.make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper
:19:35. > :19:38.chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among
:19:39. > :19:43.those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of
:19:44. > :19:47.Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we
:19:48. > :19:52.should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a
:19:53. > :19:57.second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very
:19:58. > :20:01.clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has
:20:02. > :20:05.been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and
:20:06. > :20:11.what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it
:20:12. > :20:16.becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.
:20:17. > :20:19.One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it
:20:20. > :20:25.goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back
:20:26. > :20:32.again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two
:20:33. > :20:36.chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and
:20:37. > :20:40.complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of
:20:41. > :20:46.Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain
:20:47. > :20:49.machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my
:20:50. > :20:53.experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,
:20:54. > :20:56.and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want
:20:57. > :21:00.to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.
:21:01. > :21:03.Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.
:21:04. > :21:08.Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.
:21:09. > :21:14.The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were
:21:15. > :21:19.changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the
:21:20. > :21:24.amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do
:21:25. > :21:28.the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right
:21:29. > :21:34.thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or
:21:35. > :21:40.cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We
:21:41. > :21:44.will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will
:21:45. > :21:48.scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We
:21:49. > :21:51.will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote
:21:52. > :21:55.on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.
:21:56. > :22:01.That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if
:22:02. > :22:06.you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If
:22:07. > :22:09.the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will
:22:10. > :22:16.happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly
:22:17. > :22:20.legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are
:22:21. > :22:23.talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament
:22:24. > :22:27.and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for
:22:28. > :22:30.Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of
:22:31. > :22:34.negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a
:22:35. > :22:38.process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get
:22:39. > :22:45.this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back
:22:46. > :22:47.to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and
:22:48. > :22:53.it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the
:22:54. > :22:58.Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of
:22:59. > :23:02.March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think
:23:03. > :23:05.Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the
:23:06. > :23:09.normal process. Unless the government get things right the
:23:10. > :23:14.first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are
:23:15. > :23:18.reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking
:23:19. > :23:31.about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any
:23:32. > :23:35.vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,
:23:36. > :23:38.the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government
:23:39. > :23:42.I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be
:23:43. > :23:44.on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed
:23:45. > :23:48.it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to
:23:49. > :23:54.that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is
:23:55. > :23:58.important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the
:23:59. > :24:04.ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know
:24:05. > :24:09.long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?
:24:10. > :24:14.I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do
:24:15. > :24:18.not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when
:24:19. > :24:23.we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate
:24:24. > :24:29.these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is
:24:30. > :24:32.not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look
:24:33. > :24:37.again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords
:24:38. > :24:41.decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with
:24:42. > :24:46.what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on
:24:47. > :24:50.all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are
:24:51. > :24:54.saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to
:24:55. > :24:58.have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a
:24:59. > :25:03.referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear
:25:04. > :25:06.result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but
:25:07. > :25:10.there are things which are not good about the process that we think
:25:11. > :25:15.could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum
:25:16. > :25:20.which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that
:25:21. > :25:27.passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not
:25:28. > :25:31.contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper
:25:32. > :25:36.house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite
:25:37. > :25:38.other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from
:25:39. > :25:43.the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then
:25:44. > :25:49.forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not
:25:50. > :25:51.necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could
:25:52. > :25:57.do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not
:25:58. > :26:02.unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote
:26:03. > :26:06.in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of
:26:07. > :26:10.abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and
:26:11. > :26:13.absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of
:26:14. > :26:17.Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government
:26:18. > :26:22.and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when
:26:23. > :26:27.the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying
:26:28. > :26:30.to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to
:26:31. > :26:34.the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if
:26:35. > :26:42.the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for
:26:43. > :26:50.the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like
:26:51. > :26:53.Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and
:26:54. > :26:57.appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to
:26:58. > :27:03.defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would
:27:04. > :27:05.suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is
:27:06. > :27:08.a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in
:27:09. > :27:14.history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge
:27:15. > :27:19.or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in
:27:20. > :27:22.defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour
:27:23. > :27:25.can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right
:27:26. > :27:32.every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like
:27:33. > :27:36.Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people
:27:37. > :27:43.who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I
:27:44. > :27:46.don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make
:27:47. > :27:50.amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for
:27:51. > :27:54.the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments
:27:55. > :27:59.to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to
:28:00. > :28:05.stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying
:28:06. > :28:08.that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is
:28:09. > :28:11.inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the
:28:12. > :28:15.House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean
:28:16. > :28:20.we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will
:28:21. > :28:26.happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May
:28:27. > :28:28.has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.
:28:29. > :28:30.Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week
:28:31. > :28:34.There are two by-elections round the corner -
:28:35. > :28:36.one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central
:28:37. > :28:38.where the former Shadow Education Secretary,
:28:39. > :28:40.Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role
:28:41. > :28:43.as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.
:28:44. > :28:46.But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency
:28:47. > :28:52.Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring
:28:53. > :28:54.as their candidate in a by-election bout to see
:28:55. > :29:01.At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here
:29:02. > :29:06.But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,
:29:07. > :29:13.because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.
:29:14. > :29:16.70% of people voted to leave the European Union.
:29:17. > :29:24.I'm the only candidate standing in this election
:29:25. > :29:27.who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave
:29:28. > :29:29.the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person
:29:30. > :29:32.But he has had to fight off allegations
:29:33. > :29:35.he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.
:29:36. > :29:38.Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?
:29:39. > :29:41.Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.
:29:42. > :29:43.Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.
:29:44. > :29:48.The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election
:29:49. > :29:55.and focus on something which is banal nonsense.
:29:56. > :30:01.And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.
:30:02. > :30:03.He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series
:30:04. > :30:06.of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words
:30:07. > :30:17.I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery
:30:18. > :30:19.on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that
:30:20. > :30:24.I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.
:30:25. > :30:27.It was done quite after the referendum result and it
:30:28. > :30:30.was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months
:30:31. > :30:35.after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.
:30:36. > :30:37.Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,
:30:38. > :30:39.she had failed to give any meaningful statement
:30:40. > :30:41.about what Brexit meant other than bland statements
:30:42. > :30:44.about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.
:30:45. > :30:48.The context of it was it was out of frustration.
:30:49. > :30:51.So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here
:30:52. > :30:54.I never mean to insult anybody and you know,
:30:55. > :30:57.I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member
:30:58. > :30:59.of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect
:31:00. > :31:01.the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.
:31:02. > :31:05.I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.
:31:06. > :31:08.While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.
:31:09. > :31:11.I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority
:31:12. > :31:14.is about the economy and to ensure we still have an
:31:15. > :31:17.Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop
:31:18. > :31:27.a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.
:31:28. > :31:30.It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.
:31:31. > :31:33.Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.
:31:34. > :31:38.The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.
:31:39. > :31:41.He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.
:31:42. > :31:44.He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.
:31:45. > :31:48.30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else
:31:49. > :31:52.is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.
:31:53. > :31:53.It is still something people care about.
:31:54. > :31:56.We are only at the start of the Article 50 process
:31:57. > :32:01.We are very a clear that we are standing up for those
:32:02. > :32:04.who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs
:32:05. > :32:09.Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.
:32:10. > :32:12.Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.
:32:13. > :32:14.I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.
:32:15. > :32:17.We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this
:32:18. > :32:37.And here is a full list of all the candidates standing
:32:38. > :32:48.in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.
:32:49. > :32:57.They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website
:32:58. > :33:05.as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition
:33:06. > :33:06.party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a
:33:07. > :33:14.government. All the speculation is where the
:33:15. > :33:19.opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an
:33:20. > :33:25.equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held
:33:26. > :33:30.traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by
:33:31. > :33:34.the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of
:33:35. > :33:40.these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the
:33:41. > :33:44.leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.
:33:45. > :33:50.Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the
:33:51. > :33:57.years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like
:33:58. > :34:01.Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,
:34:02. > :34:11.Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are
:34:12. > :34:16.more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more
:34:17. > :34:19.diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent
:34:20. > :34:23.evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up
:34:24. > :34:27.the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope
:34:28. > :34:31.lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would
:34:32. > :34:36.suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear
:34:37. > :34:40.too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it
:34:41. > :34:44.still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is
:34:45. > :34:52.a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,
:34:53. > :34:56.over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I
:34:57. > :35:03.mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they
:35:04. > :35:08.had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what
:35:09. > :35:13.they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over
:35:14. > :35:17.the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an
:35:18. > :35:21.era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a
:35:22. > :35:29.regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,
:35:30. > :35:32.but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do
:35:33. > :35:38.split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is
:35:39. > :35:43.still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and
:35:44. > :35:47.Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently
:35:48. > :35:52.that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the
:35:53. > :35:57.current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be
:35:58. > :35:59.a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current
:36:00. > :36:02.Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about
:36:03. > :36:06.Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think
:36:07. > :36:11.that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the
:36:12. > :36:16.mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour
:36:17. > :36:19.candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is
:36:20. > :36:23.is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has
:36:24. > :36:29.done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember
:36:30. > :36:35.speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after
:36:36. > :36:39.the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and
:36:40. > :36:43.this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one
:36:44. > :36:47.particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to
:36:48. > :36:52.play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win
:36:53. > :36:55.it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has
:36:56. > :36:59.made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,
:37:00. > :37:05.are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were
:37:06. > :37:08.saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the
:37:09. > :37:12.moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to
:37:13. > :37:16.overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has
:37:17. > :37:20.been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,
:37:21. > :37:26.but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why
:37:27. > :37:32.I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.
:37:33. > :37:35.At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these
:37:36. > :37:39.by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for
:37:40. > :37:43.Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been
:37:44. > :37:48.in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.
:37:49. > :37:51.We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of
:37:52. > :37:53.this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial
:37:54. > :37:57.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:58. > :38:00.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:01. > :38:14.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:38:15. > :38:16.Our thanks to Andrew, welcome along to the Sunday Politics
:38:17. > :38:18.here in the glorious West of England.
:38:19. > :38:21.And our headlines in the West: A spring in their step.
:38:22. > :38:24.As the parties get ready for the local elections,
:38:25. > :38:35.who will deliver success at the ballot box?
:38:36. > :38:37.Well, just like Donald Trump, we've appointed three guests
:38:38. > :38:39.to the Supreme Court of the Sunday Politics this week.
:38:40. > :38:41.They are the Conservative MP Mark Harper, Ukip MEP
:38:42. > :38:44.William, Lord Dartmouth, and for the Lib Dems, Gideon Amos.
:38:45. > :38:46.It's fair to say that there may be some differences
:38:47. > :38:48.in their political judgment, but we'll hear more
:38:49. > :39:04.Now, the days of Brexit meaning, well, Brexit are behind us -
:39:05. > :39:06.the Government has issued some guidance, in the form
:39:07. > :39:10.It explains what the future might look like once we're out
:39:11. > :39:14.But many West Country businesses still feel the process will be
:39:15. > :39:16.anything but a cakewalk, as Robin Markwell explains.
:39:17. > :39:19.It might have all the trappings of high government,
:39:20. > :39:23.but this is Taunton, not Number 10.
:39:24. > :39:27.But it's not stopped the man from this ministry,
:39:28. > :39:37.the Ministry of Cake, from getting involved in politics.
:39:38. > :39:40.They've dispatched their biggest seller, the chocolate fudge cake,
:39:41. > :39:44.to the PM, the whips' office - not that sort - and the grateful
:39:45. > :39:51."Thank you for your gift of a fudge cake, it was eaten in a flash.
:39:52. > :39:53.From your fellow Foreign Secretary, Boris."
:39:54. > :39:56.That letter, and those cakes, were prompted by this.
:39:57. > :40:04.The Ministry of Cake in my constituency of Taunton Deane,
:40:05. > :40:07.a ?30 million turnover company, has recently been bought by a French
:40:08. > :40:10.company called Mademoiselle Desserts.
:40:11. > :40:13.It demonstrates that we can unlock global trade, and it demonstrates
:40:14. > :40:18.that the South West is a terrific place to do business.
:40:19. > :40:25.I absolutely agree with my honourable friend...
:40:26. > :40:28.While though being praised in the Commons as a symbol
:40:29. > :40:30.of economic strength, back in Somerset they have real
:40:31. > :40:37.One of the fun bits of running business is you deal with lemons
:40:38. > :40:39.when they get sent towards you, and you make lemonade.
:40:40. > :40:43.I mean, Brexit though is a huge lemon, the size of a small tank,
:40:44. > :40:48.so we're going to be making a lot of lemonade for some time to come.
:40:49. > :40:50.Their number one worry is access to migrant labour -
:40:51. > :40:55.like Lubo here, who's Slovakian - as this business is struggling
:40:56. > :40:58.to fill the 30 vacancies they currently have locally.
:40:59. > :41:00.The average British person - school leaver as maybe -
:41:01. > :41:03.finds it hard to come and work in a factory and stand
:41:04. > :41:11.at a production line for 23 hours at a time,
:41:12. > :41:14.at a production line for two or three hours at a time,
:41:15. > :41:17.when they can't go for breaks when they feel like it,
:41:18. > :41:20.they can't go and talk to their mates, they've got to be
:41:21. > :41:24.And the idea of working in a dark Satanic mill fills them with dread.
:41:25. > :41:28.And I think rather sadly that means that we just don't get
:41:29. > :41:31.Now, if we suddenly say you can't bring in unskilled labour,
:41:32. > :41:34.I think the UK food manufacturing, UK food retailing and UK food
:41:35. > :41:36.restaurant trade is going to be pretty much decimated.
:41:37. > :41:38.It's not just the issue of migrant labour.
:41:39. > :41:41.While some firms believe leaving the EU will lead to less
:41:42. > :41:43.paperwork and fewer rules, others fear new trade agreements may
:41:44. > :41:46.lead to a whole host of extra bureaucracy.
:41:47. > :41:49.We now know we're leaving the single market, but companies don't know how
:41:50. > :41:52.they will prove they comply with the regulations when they
:41:53. > :41:57.We know we're probably leaving the customs union,
:41:58. > :41:59.but companies don't know whether they'll have to pay
:42:00. > :42:01.tariffs, what paperwork they'll have to fill in -
:42:02. > :42:03.many companies won't have filled in paperwork
:42:04. > :42:15.And we know there will be a UK controlled migration that'll
:42:16. > :42:19.But if you're a company, you don't know whether your workers
:42:20. > :42:22.will be affected and how easy it will be to recruit.
:42:23. > :42:24.Many businesses ARE worried by the current uncertainty,
:42:25. > :42:26.but while Brexit supporters will tell you the future is sweet,
:42:27. > :42:29.those who backed Remain still say you can have your cake...and eat it.
:42:30. > :42:32.That was Robin Markwell reporting - he didn't so much as
:42:33. > :42:37.Mark, you were Immigration Minister, and you failed to bring
:42:38. > :42:41.Will leaving the EU make a significant difference?
:42:42. > :42:44.Bearing in mind that you couldn't even control the people
:42:45. > :42:56.Well, it was great in that film to see Rebecca Pow doing such
:42:57. > :42:58.a good job on behalf of her constituents
:42:59. > :43:02.But no, I think the thing is, it'll give us control over making
:43:03. > :43:05.decisions about who we want to bring here, for what reason.
:43:06. > :43:08.I have to say, looking at that film I don't think that the boss
:43:09. > :43:11.was doing the greatest job of selling working for his
:43:12. > :43:13.company, by describing it as a "dark Satanic mill".
:43:14. > :43:17.But I think we need to look at the people we have in the UK
:43:18. > :43:20.who are not currently working, who could be in the labour market.
:43:21. > :43:22.We've got many people for example who might require a bit more
:43:23. > :43:25.effort by businesses, but who would love to be working,
:43:26. > :43:27.who we're having to support, who currently aren't working.
:43:28. > :43:30.But the point is we'll be able to make the decisions,
:43:31. > :43:32.we'll be able to look at where there are labour shortages,
:43:33. > :43:34.we'll be able to look at skill shortages,
:43:35. > :43:37.and make the decisions for Britain rather than having no control.
:43:38. > :43:40.I'm just a bit confused why you didn't do that with people
:43:41. > :43:44.Well, we did, we made big changes in the system.
:43:45. > :43:46.So for example we stopped people coming here to bogus colleges,
:43:47. > :43:49.we made sure that all the students coming here were coming to proper
:43:50. > :43:52.universities and proper colleges, we made sure you could only come
:43:53. > :43:56.I mean, one of the things to remember, of course...
:43:57. > :43:59.Apart from the international students, the numbers didn't
:44:00. > :44:02.So if you can't do it outside the EU, how can
:44:03. > :44:08.Well, one of the reasons of course was for the last six years,
:44:09. > :44:10.under first the Coalition and then the Conservative Government,
:44:11. > :44:12.we created the British economy with excellent British businesses,
:44:13. > :44:15.created more jobs than the whole of the European Union put together...
:44:16. > :44:19.Well, I think it's two things - we were very successful,
:44:20. > :44:21.but also their economies were in a real mess.
:44:22. > :44:24.Which is why a lot of those people were coming here.
:44:25. > :44:27.I think one of the things we want to see is a bit more
:44:28. > :44:29.of a balanced European economy that's doing well,
:44:30. > :44:31.All right, William's itching to come in.
:44:32. > :44:34.So perhaps tell the cake man where he can get those
:44:35. > :44:36.30 workers he needs, once you've stopped
:44:37. > :44:40.Well, first of all, David, you've made that point with great
:44:41. > :44:42.clarity that the Conservative Party cannot be trusted on immigration.
:44:43. > :44:44.They didn't even control the people that they COULD have
:44:45. > :44:47.controlled, let alone the ones that they couldn't have controlled.
:44:48. > :44:50.Now, the fact of the matter is that labour shortages can be dealt
:44:51. > :44:53.One way is to give 500 million people the absolute right
:44:54. > :44:56.to live, work and settle in the United Kingdom.
:44:57. > :44:58.Another way, which would be much better, is to simply
:44:59. > :45:02.So if there really is a desperate shortage of cake makers
:45:03. > :45:05.in the Taunton area and the South West, in the Taunton
:45:06. > :45:07.travel-to-work area, that genuinely cannot be met -
:45:08. > :45:10.well, then, there could be a system of work permits.
:45:11. > :45:14.But the fact of the matter is you don't have to do it by giving
:45:15. > :45:21.500 million people the absolute right to work in the UK.
:45:22. > :45:24.You were the party against red tape - you're really suggesting a system
:45:25. > :45:26.that will actually process each cake worker coming in for
:45:27. > :45:31.Well, it's obviously unacceptable to the British people -
:45:32. > :45:33.though not unacceptable to the Liberal Democrats
:45:34. > :45:35.and not unacceptable to the Conservative Government -
:45:36. > :45:37.it's unacceptable to the British people, that we should have
:45:38. > :45:41.And may I say, you're simply re-fighting the same
:45:42. > :45:48.You don't have to open your doors to 500 million people -
:45:49. > :45:55.No, it's not re-fighting the argument, because we have
:45:56. > :45:58.to decide on an immigration policy now that we're doing Brexit.
:45:59. > :46:04.Well, this is extraordinary - we have the two Brexit parties,
:46:05. > :46:06.Ukip and the Conservatives, both introducing, talking
:46:07. > :46:08.about introducing, a whole raft of new red tape bureaucracy.
:46:09. > :46:11.I understand that ministers have been unable to point to a single
:46:12. > :46:13.industry where low skilled migration will be stopped.
:46:14. > :46:15.They're needed in the fruit picking industry, they're needed
:46:16. > :46:17.in the catering industry as we've just seen, they're needed
:46:18. > :46:32.The Liberal Democrats are in favour of free movement.
:46:33. > :46:37.No, let me tell YOU something, free movement is an extremely
:46:38. > :46:39.important feature of the economic growth we've had over recent years.
:46:40. > :46:46.Yes, people want to see sensible controls on immigration...
:46:47. > :46:50...but we must not throw out the whole baby with the bathwater...
:46:51. > :46:53.Gideon, you don't want to see any controls on immigration from the EU?
:46:54. > :46:57.No, we DO wish to see some controls, and I'll explain that if you wish.
:46:58. > :47:03.You want to stop people coming here from the rest of the EU...
:47:04. > :47:06.What the Liberal Democrats are pointing to is the situation
:47:07. > :47:08.in Norway, which has access to the "emergency brake", and yet
:47:09. > :47:12.And that seems to us a very sensible approach.
:47:13. > :47:14.I've sat in the European Parliament for seven years, and what you're
:47:15. > :47:16.suggesting is frankly just a pipe dream.
:47:17. > :47:19.Let's talk about some numbers with you two now.
:47:20. > :47:21.Say there's, I don't know, 150,000 people coming
:47:22. > :47:25.We probably need, according to MigrationWatch,
:47:26. > :47:34.No - I'm afraid the figures are much more, it's about 300,000.
:47:35. > :47:44.And it's roughly the same from outside the EU...
:47:45. > :47:46.All right, well then, let's talk in percentages then.
:47:47. > :47:48.I thought you didn't want to talk too many statistics!
:47:49. > :47:51.What sort of percentage of people do you want to be
:47:52. > :47:55.It's isn't a question of people being banned from coming here -
:47:56. > :48:07.instead of having an open-door policy, it should be based on needs.
:48:08. > :48:08.Now, there's various ways of doing it.
:48:09. > :48:11.Well, say there is 100,000 unskilled workers, how many
:48:12. > :48:16.It can be done without giving people a permanent right of settlement.
:48:17. > :48:18.Now, you mentioned agricultural workers -
:48:19. > :48:20.They used to be something called the temporary agricultural workers
:48:21. > :48:22.scheme, which was abolished - actually by the Labour Government.
:48:23. > :48:25.That let in about 33,000 people, which is roughly a requirement.
:48:26. > :48:28.That let in about 33,000 people, which is roughly the requirement.
:48:29. > :48:31.And it works without having an open-door policy,
:48:32. > :48:32.as the gentleman put with great clarity...
:48:33. > :48:37.Well, the most straightforward thing is you just use the system used
:48:38. > :48:40.for those coming from outside, where you allow employers
:48:41. > :48:42.to employ skilled people, but you also have a sensible set
:48:43. > :48:45.of officials that look at where we have shortages, skill shortages -
:48:46. > :48:48.if you've got a skill shortage, then you allow people to come in,
:48:49. > :48:50.if you haven't got a skill shortage, you don't.
:48:51. > :48:53.It works very well for those coming from outside the EU,
:48:54. > :48:57.So you have one system - you replace the system
:48:58. > :49:00.we've got at the moment, we have two models, with one,
:49:01. > :49:02.and I think employers will cope with that very well.
:49:03. > :49:04.But Mark, that's the system which HASN'T reduced immigration
:49:05. > :49:06.from outside of the EU, that you're suggesting.
:49:07. > :49:11.We haven't reduced students actually, coming into our
:49:12. > :49:13.universities, but the point is you're bringing in skilled people
:49:14. > :49:15.who are bringing a big benefit to the economy,
:49:16. > :49:17.in things like IT and industries like that,
:49:18. > :49:19.and that's the type of system I want to replicate.
:49:20. > :49:24.Gosh, it would be nice to spend longer, but we've got to move on.
:49:25. > :49:26.Well, Ukip nowadays portrays themselves as the party
:49:27. > :49:33.That'll be their pitch to voters in the coming local elections.
:49:34. > :49:36.Things have also changed for the Lib Dems, who post-referendum
:49:37. > :49:38.seem to be reviving at the expense of the Tories.
:49:39. > :49:40.Paul Barltrop reports from Gloucestershire.
:49:41. > :49:43.The sun was shining on Liberal Democrats in the Cotswold
:49:44. > :49:47.They pulled out the stops for a District Council
:49:48. > :49:55.A previously solid Tory seat was seized, with a 25% swing.
:49:56. > :50:01.It feels now for the Liberal Democrats so different to how it
:50:02. > :50:03.felt eight months ago in the referendum.
:50:04. > :50:09.And even two years ago at the General Election.
:50:10. > :50:15.We have come on so much in the last eight months on the last two years.
:50:16. > :50:21.What that means is we've got lots of new members helping us, but we've
:50:22. > :50:24.also seen this plethora of huge gains in terms of council
:50:25. > :50:30.by-election is all over the country. Party membership has doubled since a
:50:31. > :50:36.few years back. Many clothes -- many joined because of their opposition
:50:37. > :50:41.to Brexit. People are taking a fresh look -- look at us, and particularly
:50:42. > :50:44.since the referendum. They are prepared to look at us again as a
:50:45. > :50:51.party that's saying something very definite. The next battle will be
:50:52. > :50:56.for this place. For four years, the county's had a minority Conservative
:50:57. > :50:58.administration. Like other councils, Gloucestershire's financial
:50:59. > :51:02.situation is pretty tight. For years it's been cutting spending while
:51:03. > :51:06.facing increasing demands for services like caring for elderly and
:51:07. > :51:10.disabled people. Despite that, this year it's not going to be putting up
:51:11. > :51:16.the council tax by as much as the Government permits. That's because
:51:17. > :51:18.the ruling Conservatives want to go into the election boasting one of
:51:19. > :51:21.Country. We are changing services, Country. We are changing services,
:51:22. > :51:25.you know, some services we are spending less on than we spent
:51:26. > :51:29.before. That's because we're prioritising expenditure for the
:51:30. > :51:32.most vulnerable and for the infrastructure that our candidates.
:51:33. > :51:37.Just because you're spending less money doesn't mean you're delivering
:51:38. > :51:40.a pro service. Yes, we have had to make difficult decisions, voters
:51:41. > :51:44.understand that there is only so much amount of money. They run
:51:45. > :51:48.households, they've got has budgets, they know they have got to make
:51:49. > :51:52.choices about what to spend money on. The 2013 county elections
:51:53. > :51:57.brought Ukip the breakthrough, winning three seats in the Forest of
:51:58. > :52:01.Dean, but two recently left the party. It's been a real
:52:02. > :52:08.roller-coaster. I'm not a career politician, and I went into it very
:52:09. > :52:12.na vely about what was involved. He is enthusiastic about Ukip's new
:52:13. > :52:17.emphasis on less well of photos. I think there's a lot of people in the
:52:18. > :52:22.forest who have not benefited from what's happened in the economy over
:52:23. > :52:28.the last 20, 30 years. There's a lot of people who have been left behind,
:52:29. > :52:32.disadvantaged. And there is a heavy concentration of those in this area.
:52:33. > :52:36.That is clearly a threat to Labour, which local councillor Paul McMahon
:52:37. > :52:40.is determined to resist. People just wanted a change. They have changed
:52:41. > :52:46.to Ukip, but sadly they have been very badly let down at County
:52:47. > :52:49.Council. They have three members, one walked across to the Tories and
:52:50. > :52:54.the other has disappeared into the ether and you have one bloke in the
:52:55. > :53:01.Tories' back pocket. If you want to vote for the Tories, vote for them,
:53:02. > :53:04.not for Ukip! In Fairford, the placards are being taken down. They
:53:05. > :53:12.will be back out again before the West goes to the polls in May. It is
:53:13. > :53:14.going to be interesting. William, when did you suddenly find this
:53:15. > :53:20.passion to represent the working classes. That's a very loaded
:53:21. > :53:27.question! It isn't about me, it's about what my party stands for as a
:53:28. > :53:32.whole, it is about the leader, Paul Nuttall, the fact of the matter is
:53:33. > :53:36.that the Labour Party used to be a patriotic party. It is no longer a
:53:37. > :53:41.patriotic party, it has let people down and this is why so many people
:53:42. > :53:45.who were hitherto Labour supporters voted for Ukip in the last General
:53:46. > :53:50.Election. Where incidentally we got more votes than the Lib Dems and the
:53:51. > :53:54.Scottish Nationalists combined. You could come on and talk about all
:53:55. > :54:04.these elites and so on, and very often they are billionaires and
:54:05. > :54:09.millionaires and all the rest of it. With respect, they are the elite.
:54:10. > :54:14.You are the elite. If you do want to personalise it, I would point out
:54:15. > :54:17.that the great Bristol MP and parliamentarian Toru -- Tony Benn
:54:18. > :54:24.was the second Viscount scans gate. But what is relevant is what he
:54:25. > :54:32.stood for, -- viscount stands gay. He stood for favouring -- viscount
:54:33. > :54:39.Stansgate. He didn't change his political views very much. Mark
:54:40. > :54:47.Harper, Theresa May has talked about the "Just about managing" people.
:54:48. > :54:50.How are you appealing to them? Well, you heard from the Conservative
:54:51. > :54:54.leader of the council about making sure we keep council tax low. It's
:54:55. > :54:57.only gone up about 2% on average since we've been in power. Before it
:54:58. > :55:03.was going up 8%. But the same time was going up 8%. But the same time
:55:04. > :55:06.we prioritised things like social care, son Gloucestershire social
:55:07. > :55:12.care's been the number one priority since we took over. It's had to make
:55:13. > :55:15.had problems to the extent there had problems to the extent there
:55:16. > :55:19.have been elsewhere in the country, and nothing prioritising the
:55:20. > :55:23.vulnerable but keeping council tax rises at a sensible level exam helps
:55:24. > :55:29.people who don't have a lot of money and can see big rises in their
:55:30. > :55:33.council tax, and want a party that is managing money properly. Unlike
:55:34. > :55:36.the spendthrift local authorities like Surrey. In Gloucestershire,
:55:37. > :55:42.when Labour and the Liberals were running it, one year they put up
:55:43. > :55:45.council tax by 13%. The voters are talked to are pleased that we keep
:55:46. > :55:49.council tax low, but at the same time we spend money on vulnerable
:55:50. > :55:52.people who need the support from their council. And there's going to
:55:53. > :56:00.be no sweetheart deal -- there's been no sweetheart deal from the
:56:01. > :56:03.Government. No, not sorry either. Gideon, something happened in sorry,
:56:04. > :56:11.didn't it? You don't happen to know what? The Government was very clear
:56:12. > :56:16.that wasn't any extra money, and there wasn't any kind of special
:56:17. > :56:19.deal. What local councillors have decided I don't know, but in
:56:20. > :56:23.Gloucestershire we've got a good team and I want to see them
:56:24. > :56:28.re-elected. Gideon, no doubt the Lib Dems have done very well in some
:56:29. > :56:30.small council elections. Can that be transformed into something bigger,
:56:31. > :56:36.do you think? Well, you know, one do you think? Well, you know, one
:56:37. > :56:41.indication only, perhaps, of where we are going, and yes, we are
:56:42. > :56:45.growing in membership, we are winning by-elections and councils,
:56:46. > :56:49.and the one we've just seen in the report was actually outshone by one
:56:50. > :56:53.down the road from the Ministry of cake in our constituency in Taunton
:56:54. > :56:58.Deane, where we won the 72% of the vote. But whilst people are joining,
:56:59. > :57:08.it's going to be a matter of how many become active, and actually do
:57:09. > :57:11.things. You're trying to give a voice, I guess, to the 60 million
:57:12. > :57:13.who voted to remain in the EU. It's more than that. But that's a
:57:14. > :57:17.minority, isn't it? It's actually very interesting that you should
:57:18. > :57:21.raise that, because if you go to the Blackdown Hills where we just won
:57:22. > :57:25.with 72% of the vote, you will find that people there voted leaving the
:57:26. > :57:31.referendum. People are coming to us because they want a party that has
:57:32. > :57:37.something positive to say, something -- some -- that is willing to look
:57:38. > :57:39.at Brexit... You voted against it this last week! What the Liberal
:57:40. > :57:46.Democrats did in Parliament was split down an amendment to the Bill,
:57:47. > :57:50.and were we to have a majority in the House of Commons, that Bill
:57:51. > :57:57.would have gone through with the Liberal Democrat amendment. They
:57:58. > :58:02.voted against giving the Prime Minister authority for article 50.
:58:03. > :58:07.Would you stop Brexit in Government? We would continue with the Bill, the
:58:08. > :58:12.amendment we put down this week... So you'd go ahead with Brexit. Which
:58:13. > :58:19.would we would give -- which was we would give people the final say...
:58:20. > :58:23.Let's be very clear, the Liberal Democrats are doing everything they
:58:24. > :58:27.possibly can to frustrate Brexit, by fair means or foul. They are neither
:58:28. > :58:29.liberal. Democrats at. They should be sued under the trade descriptions
:58:30. > :58:35.act! Methinks they do protest too act! Methinks they do protest too
:58:36. > :58:42.much. Whose job is it then to speak for the people who voted against? It
:58:43. > :58:48.is certainly not Ukip's job. Why shouldn't it be the Lib Dem roll to
:58:49. > :58:53.represent the 48%? The decision -- the discussion has been settled
:58:54. > :58:56.decisively, although the two Labour MPs or two or three of the Labour MP
:58:57. > :59:00.for Bristol unfortunately don't accept it either. The Lib Dems did
:59:01. > :59:07.accept that, and ready to go forward as one country,. Because you would
:59:08. > :59:12.have accepted have the reverse been the case? I would, I can't speak for
:59:13. > :59:23.everybody, but I would, since you ask. -- had the reverse been the
:59:24. > :59:27.Well, let's take a look at the political news
:59:28. > :59:31.The Brexit debate heated up this week, Devizes MP
:59:32. > :59:33.Claire Perry comparing some of her colleagues to extremists.
:59:34. > :59:35.I feel sometimes I'm sitting along with colleagues
:59:36. > :59:38.She joined Labour's Kerry McCarthy and Thangam Debbonaire
:59:39. > :59:42.An independent report was scathing about Bristol City Council.
:59:43. > :59:44.It said financial information was unreliable, overoptimistic
:59:45. > :59:46.and unprofessional, preventing the council dealing
:59:47. > :59:56.The Government revealed more details about the powers of the West
:59:57. > :00:01.Whoever wins in May will be able to fund bus routes,
:00:02. > :00:03.buy land for housing, and set up development corporations.
:00:04. > :00:05.And it was claimed a new tunnel under Stonehenge could be
:00:06. > :00:08.in trouble, because a Government road building fund has
:00:09. > :00:11.But Highways England says it's still confident of driving
:00:12. > :00:19.Well, that was the week in 60 seconds.
:00:20. > :00:23.For the last 30 seconds of the programme I just want to talk
:00:24. > :00:26.want to talk about austerity, and whether it's time
:00:27. > :00:28.for the Government to take its foot off the brakes.
:00:29. > :00:36.We're certainly in massive crisis in the NHS.
:00:37. > :00:38.We're looking at a policy of depending on income
:00:39. > :00:44.Cut foreign aid, and that will give us another ?8 billion to ?10 billion
:00:45. > :00:49.Well, I think we need to continue spending money
:00:50. > :00:51.on the NHS as we have, but I do think austerity...
:00:52. > :00:54.I prefer to call it living within your means, and I think
:00:55. > :00:56.the Government needs to continue doing that.
:00:57. > :01:00.And that's it for the West this week.
:01:01. > :01:03.My thanks to my guests, Mark Harper, William Dartmouth and Gideon Amos.
:01:04. > :01:05.Please follow us on Twitter for the latest political news
:01:06. > :01:05.from the West, and you can watch the programme again
:01:06. > :01:15.After the excitement and late nights in the Commons last week,
:01:16. > :01:18.MPs are having a little break this week as we head into
:01:19. > :01:22.But there's still plenty in the diary in the near future -
:01:23. > :01:29.let's just remind ourselves of some key upcoming dates.
:01:30. > :01:39.There they are. We have the two by-elections on February 23rd. The
:01:40. > :01:42.budget is 8th March. That will be the last spring budget under this
:01:43. > :01:57.Government because it moves to the autumn.
:01:58. > :02:03.That round of French elections narrows the candidates, probably
:02:04. > :02:09.about eight or nine, down to two, the two who come first and second,
:02:10. > :02:16.then go into a play off round on May 7th. That will determine the next
:02:17. > :02:20.President. Steve, listening to Oliver Letwin and to the Labour
:02:21. > :02:23.leader in the House of Lords, is there any way you think that end of
:02:24. > :02:29.March deadline for Mrs May could be in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew
:02:30. > :02:33.Smith couldn't have been clearer with you they would do nothing to
:02:34. > :02:40.block not just Article 50 but that timetable, so I would be surprised
:02:41. > :02:44.if they don't make it. Given her, Theresa May's explicit determination
:02:45. > :02:49.to do so, not to do so would have become a problem for her, I think
:02:50. > :02:54.one way or another... No before this vote last week there was a vote nor
:02:55. > :02:58.the deadline, to agree the deadline by all sides. Plain sailing do you
:02:59. > :03:01.think? There is no serious Parliamentary resistance and it
:03:02. > :03:04.would be a personal embarrassment, I think for the Prime Minister to name
:03:05. > :03:10.the the end of March as the deadline and to miss it, unless she has a
:03:11. > :03:15.good excuse. I I reckon it will change the atmosphere of politics
:03:16. > :03:18.for the next two years, as soon as the negotiations begin, people in
:03:19. > :03:22.our profession will hunt for any detail and inside information we can
:03:23. > :03:26.find, thing also be leaked, I think from the European side from time to
:03:27. > :03:31.time, it will dominate the headlines for a solid two years and change
:03:32. > :03:37.politics. Let me just raise a possible, a dark cloud. No bigger
:03:38. > :03:40.than man's hand, that can complicate the timetable, because the Royal
:03:41. > :03:46.Assent on the current timetable has to come round the 13th. I would
:03:47. > :03:50.suggest that the Prime Minister can't trigger that until she does
:03:51. > :03:56.get the Royal Assent. If there is a bit of ping-pong that could delay
:03:57. > :03:59.that by receive day, the last thing the Europeans would want, they have
:04:00. > :04:05.another big meeting at the end of March which is the 60th anniversary
:04:06. > :04:12.of the Treaty of Rome. They don't want Article 50 to land on the
:04:13. > :04:16.table... It would infuriate everybody. My guess is she will have
:04:17. > :04:20.done it by then, this is between the Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew
:04:21. > :04:27.Smith couldn't have been clearer, that they might send something back
:04:28. > :04:32.but they didn't expect a kind of a long play over this, so. The Liberal
:04:33. > :04:37.Democrats, they are almost an irrelevance in the Commons but not
:04:38. > :04:42.the Lords, they feel differently. Now, we don't know yet what the
:04:43. > :04:45.European Union negotiating position is going to be, we don't know
:04:46. > :04:48.because there are several crucial elections taking place, the Dutch
:04:49. > :04:53.taking place in March and then the one we put up, the French, and, at
:04:54. > :05:00.the moment, the French one is, it seems like it is coming down, to a
:05:01. > :05:07.play-off in the second round between Madame Le Pen who could come first
:05:08. > :05:11.in the first round and this Blairite figure, independent, centre-leftish
:05:12. > :05:16.Mr Macron, he may well get through and that, and the outcome of that
:05:17. > :05:21.will be an important determine napt on our negotiations. -- determinant.
:05:22. > :05:25.You o couldn't have two more different candidate, you have a
:05:26. > :05:30.national a front candidate and on the other hand the closest thing
:05:31. > :05:37.France could have you to a liberal President. With a small l. A
:05:38. > :05:42.reformist liberal President. It would be the most French thing in
:05:43. > :05:48.the world to elect someone who while the rest of the world is elected
:05:49. > :05:55.elitist, to elect someone who is the son of a teacher, who has liberal
:05:56. > :06:02.views, is a member of the French elite. It would be a thing for them
:06:03. > :06:10.to elect a man like that which I why I see them doing it. If it is Le
:06:11. > :06:14.Pen, Brexit becomes a minor sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the
:06:15. > :06:21.future of the European Union is? Danger, regardless of whether we are
:06:22. > :06:25.were in or out. I suggest if it is Mr Macron that presents some
:06:26. > :06:29.problems. He doesn't have his own party. He won't have a majority in
:06:30. > :06:33.the French assembly, he is untried and untested. He wants to do a
:06:34. > :06:40.number of things that will be unpopular which is why a number of
:06:41. > :06:48.people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me that she has her eye on 2022. She
:06:49. > :06:54.thinks lit go to hell in a hand basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't
:06:55. > :06:59.got the experience. What I find fascinating. It is not just all to
:07:00. > :07:03.play for in France, it is the fact what happens in France and Germany,
:07:04. > :07:09.not so much Holland I think but Germany later on in the year, how
:07:10. > :07:23.much it impacts what we are going to get. How much which ex #i78 panting
:07:24. > :07:25.on them. And at the time we are trying to, withdrawing ourself from
:07:26. > :07:29.European politics it is fascinating how much it will affect us. You see
:07:30. > :07:35.what Matthew was talking about earlier in the show, that what we do
:07:36. > :07:38.know, almost for sure, is that the socialist candidate will not get
:07:39. > :07:43.through to the second round. He could come firth but the
:07:44. > :07:47.centre-right candidate. If we were discussing that monthing a we would
:07:48. > :07:52.say it between teen the centre-right and the national fronts. We are to
:07:53. > :07:56.saying that. Matthew good win who spent a time in France isn't sure Le
:07:57. > :08:02.Pen will get into the second round, which is interesting. It is, I mean,
:08:03. > :08:09.it is going to be as important for the future of the European Union, as
:08:10. > :08:12.in retrospect the British 2015 general election was, if Labour had
:08:13. > :08:15.got in there would have been no referendum. That referendum has
:08:16. > :08:21.transformed the European Union because we are leaving and the
:08:22. > :08:26.French election is significant. We will be live from Paris on April
:08:27. > :08:32.23rd on the day France goings to the first round of polls. Tom Watson, he
:08:33. > :08:33.was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier today, was asked about Mr Corbyn,
:08:34. > :08:38.this is what he had to say. We had a damaging second leadership
:08:39. > :08:42.election, so we've got The polls aren't great for us,
:08:43. > :08:45.but I'm determined now we've got the leadership settled for this
:08:46. > :08:48.parliament, that we can focus on developing a very positive clear
:08:49. > :09:04.message to the British people So Julia, I don't know who are you
:09:05. > :09:09.are giggling. I find it untenable that, he is a very good media
:09:10. > :09:12.performer and he comes on and he is sitting there so well, you know,
:09:13. > :09:17.things are bad but don't worry we are looking at what we can do to win
:09:18. > :09:23.2020. The idea that Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were sitting in their
:09:24. > :09:27.offices or on TV screens at this time in the electoral cycle thinking
:09:28. > :09:32.well I wonder if we can come up with a policy the British people might
:09:33. > :09:40.like. It is a nonsense, this is Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going
:09:41. > :09:47.to ask you the question I was going to before. I would suggest that he
:09:48. > :09:53.the right. The deputy Labour leader Tom Watson is violent the leadership
:09:54. > :09:58.is settled, with one caveat, unless the Corbynistas themselves to decide
:09:59. > :10:03.to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of the Labour Party decides then it is
:10:04. > :10:07.not settled. Settled. If that doesn't happen that is That would be
:10:08. > :10:12.the worst situation if you are a Labour moderate. The Corbynistas
:10:13. > :10:18.would be saying the problem is no Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if
:10:19. > :10:23.we a younger person leading the process we can win the next general
:10:24. > :10:27.election, which means you have another itration of this, another
:10:28. > :10:35.five year experiment. And that is worst of all. If you are a Labour
:10:36. > :10:39.moderate, what you want is Jeremy Corbyn contest the next general
:10:40. > :10:43.election, possibly loses badly and then a Labour not moderate runs for
:10:44. > :10:48.the leadership saying we have tried your way, the worst would be Corbyn
:10:49. > :10:53.going, and a younger seven version of him trying and the experiment
:10:54. > :10:58.being extended. I see no easy way out of this. That is why he radiated
:10:59. > :11:03.the enthusiasm of someone in a hostage video in that interview.
:11:04. > :11:10.Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome now. The Labour moderates have had
:11:11. > :11:13.their day in the sun, two days in the sun and they lost. I suggest
:11:14. > :11:18.they are not going to try for the hat-trick again. Is there any
:11:19. > :11:25.indication that on the more Corbyn wing of the Labour Party, there is
:11:26. > :11:30.now doubts about their man. Yes, just to translate Tom Watson, what
:11:31. > :11:36.he meant was I Tom Watson am not going to get involved in another
:11:37. > :11:42.attempted coup. I tried it and it was a catastrophe. That is question
:11:43. > :11:47.enhe says it is set selled. It is because there is speculation on a
:11:48. > :11:53.daily basis. I disagree, Julia said I think this lot don't care about
:11:54. > :11:57.winning, I think they do. If the current position continue, one of
:11:58. > :12:01.two things will happen. Either Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself
:12:02. > :12:08.will decide he doesn't want to carry on. He half enjoys I it and half
:12:09. > :12:12.hates it. Finds it a strain. If that doesn't happen there will be some
:12:13. > :12:18.people round him who will say, look, this isn't working. There is another
:12:19. > :12:24.three-and-a-half years. There is a long way to go. I can't see it
:12:25. > :12:28.lasting in this way with politics in a state of flux, Tories will be
:12:29. > :12:33.under pressure in the coming two years, to have opinion polls at this
:12:34. > :12:38.level, I think is unsustainable. Final thought from you.? Yes, the
:12:39. > :12:42.idea it St another three-and-a-half years is just madness, but the
:12:43. > :12:48.people we are putting up at replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and
:12:49. > :12:52.they have been focus grouping them. Most members wouldn't know who most
:12:53. > :12:56.of people were let alone most of the public.
:12:57. > :13:03.Angela rain? They are not overwhelmed with leadership
:13:04. > :13:07.potential at the moment. Very diplomatically put. Neither are the
:13:08. > :13:09.Tories, but they happened to have one at the moment. All right. That
:13:10. > :13:12.is it. Now, there's no Daily
:13:13. > :13:15.or Sunday Politics for the next week But the Daily Politics will be back
:13:16. > :13:19.on Monday 20th February and I'll be back here with the Sunday Politics
:13:20. > :13:23.on the 26th. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:24. > :13:25.it's the Sunday Politics... Just back from
:13:26. > :14:07.a very long shift at work... The staff are losing -
:14:08. > :14:13.they're just giving in. Panorama goes undercover
:14:14. > :14:18.to reveal the real cost OK, everyone, have you got
:14:19. > :14:49.your bamboo sticks? If you just paint
:14:50. > :14:52.what you want to paint,