:00:41. > :00:46.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:47. > :00:47.Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,
:00:48. > :00:49.not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.
:00:50. > :00:50.But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,
:00:51. > :00:52.the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.
:00:53. > :00:55.Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,
:00:56. > :00:57.but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party
:00:58. > :01:08.The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.
:01:09. > :01:13.You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!
:01:14. > :01:23.And in the West: mocked for talking about the impact
:01:24. > :01:25.Local authorities raise tax and cut services this week.
:01:26. > :01:27.The leaders of our two biggest councils will be with me
:01:28. > :01:31.In London, will the rise in council tax in all but four local
:01:32. > :01:38.authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?
:01:39. > :01:40.And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased
:01:41. > :01:48.to say have so far not been banned from the White House.
:01:49. > :01:52.I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,
:01:53. > :01:56.but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,
:01:57. > :02:06.We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last
:02:07. > :02:10.Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe
:02:11. > :02:14.British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it
:02:15. > :02:19.may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is
:02:20. > :02:25.difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a
:02:26. > :02:30.credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the
:02:31. > :02:33.campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin
:02:34. > :02:37.with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but
:02:38. > :02:42.they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's
:02:43. > :02:45.hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems
:02:46. > :02:51.they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If
:02:52. > :02:58.Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at
:02:59. > :03:03.the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind
:03:04. > :03:07.despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never
:03:08. > :03:12.more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's
:03:13. > :03:17.the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she
:03:18. > :03:22.faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher
:03:23. > :03:27.who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked
:03:28. > :03:33.like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up
:03:34. > :03:39.to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite
:03:40. > :03:44.often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK
:03:45. > :03:48.opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her
:03:49. > :03:53.agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips
:03:54. > :03:58.with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be
:03:59. > :04:03.for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both
:04:04. > :04:07.strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and
:04:08. > :04:12.very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more
:04:13. > :04:17.dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go
:04:18. > :04:20.wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think
:04:21. > :04:25.through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority
:04:26. > :04:28.of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put
:04:29. > :04:32.under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the
:04:33. > :04:40.two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or
:04:41. > :04:42.the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to
:04:43. > :04:47.operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party
:04:48. > :04:51.to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be
:04:52. > :04:54.disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that
:04:55. > :05:00.would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip
:05:01. > :05:05.coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the
:05:06. > :05:11.moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures
:05:12. > :05:14.might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite
:05:15. > :05:17.anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press
:05:18. > :05:24.ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a
:05:25. > :05:27.slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of
:05:28. > :05:32.transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people
:05:33. > :05:36.happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground
:05:37. > :05:40.and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in
:05:41. > :05:44.which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for
:05:45. > :05:45.today. Thursday was a big night
:05:46. > :05:47.for political obsessives like us, with not one but two
:05:48. > :05:51.significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain
:05:52. > :05:59.to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,
:06:00. > :06:04.the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just
:06:05. > :06:08.a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent
:06:09. > :06:12.were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall
:06:13. > :06:16.on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon
:06:17. > :06:22.is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning
:06:23. > :06:24.strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved
:06:25. > :06:27.to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result
:06:28. > :06:29.in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away
:06:30. > :06:33.in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another
:06:34. > :06:38.Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both
:06:39. > :06:45.places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal
:06:46. > :06:48.by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,
:06:49. > :06:50.Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,
:06:51. > :06:53.winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,
:06:54. > :06:55.where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it
:06:56. > :06:59.onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare
:07:00. > :07:03.that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory
:07:04. > :07:11.here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader
:07:12. > :07:17.played down the defeat, insisting his party's
:07:18. > :07:20.time would come. Are you going to stand again
:07:21. > :07:26.as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,
:07:27. > :07:30.don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat
:07:31. > :07:39.the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this
:07:40. > :07:41.weekend who have got But a few minutes later,
:07:42. > :07:47.it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,
:07:48. > :07:51.the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000
:07:52. > :08:02.votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight
:08:03. > :08:06.is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,
:08:07. > :08:08.but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18
:08:09. > :08:20.points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes
:08:21. > :08:24.I think is an incredible The morning after the night
:08:25. > :08:28.before, the losing parties were licking their wounds
:08:29. > :08:32.and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,
:08:33. > :08:36.Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,
:08:37. > :08:42.that era has gone. It's a new era, it is
:08:43. > :08:45.a second age for us. So that needs to be
:08:46. > :08:50.more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,
:08:51. > :08:52.you know, and that will We have to continue to improve
:08:53. > :09:02.in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,
:09:03. > :09:04.we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,
:09:05. > :09:06.is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come
:09:07. > :09:11.here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP
:09:12. > :09:14.for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived
:09:15. > :09:18.in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to
:09:19. > :09:22.Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour
:09:23. > :09:26.leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some
:09:27. > :09:28.theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost
:09:29. > :09:34.a seat to a governing party for the first time
:09:35. > :09:38.since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning
:09:39. > :09:41.looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -
:09:42. > :09:45.could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives
:09:46. > :09:53.who came out on top. No governing party has made
:09:54. > :09:55.a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army
:09:56. > :10:01.of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out
:10:02. > :10:06.here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain
:10:07. > :10:17.on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in
:10:18. > :10:20.Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring
:10:21. > :10:22.conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson
:10:23. > :10:27.warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat
:10:28. > :10:29.seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated
:10:30. > :10:33.south of the border. Well, I'm joined now
:10:34. > :10:48.by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost
:10:49. > :10:52.Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the
:10:53. > :10:57.UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would
:10:58. > :11:04.absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to
:11:05. > :11:07.support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing
:11:08. > :11:11.for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for
:11:12. > :11:14.everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn
:11:15. > :11:17.around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do
:11:18. > :11:24.while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we
:11:25. > :11:28.were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working
:11:29. > :11:32.class communities across the country, but we listened very hard
:11:33. > :11:36.to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm
:11:37. > :11:42.committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is
:11:43. > :11:48.committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in
:11:49. > :11:53.Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even
:11:54. > :11:59.Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will
:12:00. > :12:03.try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general
:12:04. > :12:07.election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm
:12:08. > :12:12.the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for
:12:13. > :12:14.our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish
:12:15. > :12:18.Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we
:12:19. > :12:22.stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity
:12:23. > :12:26.platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and
:12:27. > :12:30.invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also
:12:31. > :12:36.supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to
:12:37. > :12:40.a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together
:12:41. > :12:45.by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the
:12:46. > :12:48.federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that
:12:49. > :12:52.ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional
:12:53. > :12:59.Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party
:13:00. > :13:05.and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will
:13:06. > :13:10.take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party
:13:11. > :13:14.can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide
:13:15. > :13:21.Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.
:13:22. > :13:27.Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to
:13:28. > :13:31.carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level
:13:32. > :13:35.is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to
:13:36. > :13:38.prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not
:13:39. > :13:43.to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the
:13:44. > :13:48.point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say
:13:49. > :13:52.there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it
:13:53. > :13:56.and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of
:13:57. > :14:01.this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that
:14:02. > :14:05.happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder
:14:06. > :14:08.people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What
:14:09. > :14:14.evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an
:14:15. > :14:19.English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal
:14:20. > :14:22.regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell
:14:23. > :14:28.you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that
:14:29. > :14:33.here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.
:14:34. > :14:36.What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast
:14:37. > :14:40.that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the
:14:41. > :14:45.north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that
:14:46. > :14:48.Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel
:14:49. > :14:52.remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being
:14:53. > :14:55.exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in
:14:56. > :14:59.because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways
:15:00. > :15:08.it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is
:15:09. > :15:10.leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation
:15:11. > :15:13.of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers
:15:14. > :15:15.to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English
:15:16. > :15:20.context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the
:15:21. > :15:20.English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,
:15:21. > :15:30.correct? It is absolutely the policy of the
:15:31. > :15:35.UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention
:15:36. > :15:39.to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're
:15:40. > :15:43.promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not
:15:44. > :15:48.even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is
:15:49. > :15:51.not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to
:15:52. > :15:56.Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.
:15:57. > :16:00.United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not
:16:01. > :16:05.united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power
:16:06. > :16:29.in this country. It is not united on that
:16:30. > :16:32.issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard
:16:33. > :16:35.yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people
:16:36. > :16:37.like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local
:16:38. > :16:39.Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.
:16:40. > :16:41.Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the
:16:42. > :16:44.whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a
:16:45. > :16:46.conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come
:16:47. > :16:49.onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He
:16:50. > :16:51.wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish
:16:52. > :16:54.nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance
:16:55. > :16:59.yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear
:17:00. > :17:04.yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was
:17:05. > :17:08.saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people
:17:09. > :17:13.and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up
:17:14. > :17:17.living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is
:17:18. > :17:22.forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,
:17:23. > :17:26.it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the
:17:27. > :17:31.consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing
:17:32. > :17:45.under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with
:17:46. > :17:49.ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He
:17:50. > :17:52.said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last
:17:53. > :17:54.minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and
:17:55. > :17:57.reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish
:17:58. > :18:01.nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that
:18:02. > :18:04.even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of
:18:05. > :18:12.nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it
:18:13. > :18:16.is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.
:18:17. > :18:20.Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly
:18:21. > :18:27.refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the
:18:28. > :18:32.SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did
:18:33. > :18:36.not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is
:18:37. > :18:40.divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.
:18:41. > :18:46.Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in
:18:47. > :18:51.Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence
:18:52. > :18:54.question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want
:18:55. > :19:00.to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and
:19:01. > :19:04.no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers
:19:05. > :19:08.lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,
:19:09. > :19:13.your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he
:19:14. > :19:21.referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --
:19:22. > :19:25.and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive
:19:26. > :19:29.politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we
:19:30. > :19:33.are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from
:19:34. > :19:37.saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That
:19:38. > :19:42.is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really
:19:43. > :19:48.struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about
:19:49. > :19:54.being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear
:19:55. > :19:58.that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the
:19:59. > :20:03.length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is
:20:04. > :20:06.what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back
:20:07. > :20:11.together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'
:20:12. > :20:12.time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for
:20:13. > :20:13.joining us. Thursday's win for Labour
:20:14. > :20:15.in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,
:20:16. > :20:18.but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall
:20:19. > :20:20.there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's
:20:21. > :20:31.principal political Welcome to the programme. Good
:20:32. > :20:34.morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,
:20:35. > :20:41.months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip
:20:42. > :20:45.was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting
:20:46. > :20:49.Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of
:20:50. > :20:52.Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to
:20:53. > :20:58.make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in
:20:59. > :21:05.Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.
:21:06. > :21:09.We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment
:21:10. > :21:14.that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.
:21:15. > :21:19.Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.
:21:20. > :21:24.A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out
:21:25. > :21:28.publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of
:21:29. > :21:33.Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt
:21:34. > :21:36.about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well
:21:37. > :21:52.the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of
:21:53. > :21:55.Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are
:21:56. > :21:57.passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the
:21:58. > :21:59.most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What
:22:00. > :22:02.would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul
:22:03. > :22:06.Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic
:22:07. > :22:11.cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip
:22:12. > :22:18.supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was
:22:19. > :22:25.marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip
:22:26. > :22:29.to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning
:22:30. > :22:33.what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is
:22:34. > :22:38.counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more
:22:39. > :22:43.difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a
:22:44. > :22:49.Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against
:22:50. > :22:52.triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the
:22:53. > :22:54.Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It
:22:55. > :23:11.comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.
:23:12. > :23:14.You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,
:23:15. > :23:16.they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning
:23:17. > :23:18.Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso
:23:19. > :23:20.labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,
:23:21. > :23:23.it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a
:23:24. > :23:28.future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour
:23:29. > :23:33.Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not
:23:34. > :23:36.recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around
:23:37. > :23:40.campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We
:23:41. > :23:43.believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working
:23:44. > :23:50.class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in
:23:51. > :23:55.Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable
:23:56. > :24:01.to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social
:24:02. > :24:05.solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation
:24:06. > :24:09.and community. We want an immigration system that is not only
:24:10. > :24:14.reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a
:24:15. > :24:18.whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When
:24:19. > :24:24.Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he
:24:25. > :24:31.was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It
:24:32. > :24:35.would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of
:24:36. > :24:38.Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions
:24:39. > :24:41.and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will
:24:42. > :24:45.fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true
:24:46. > :24:49.that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote
:24:50. > :24:54.might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and
:24:55. > :24:58.disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,
:24:59. > :25:03.Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant
:25:04. > :25:09.tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on
:25:10. > :25:13.immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the
:25:14. > :25:16.spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech
:25:17. > :25:23.before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the
:25:24. > :25:29.result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to
:25:30. > :25:33.set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you
:25:34. > :25:39.have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,
:25:40. > :25:44.do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and
:25:45. > :25:47.freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is
:25:48. > :25:52.certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,
:25:53. > :25:58.particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing
:25:59. > :26:01.to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.
:26:02. > :26:07.If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps
:26:08. > :26:12.to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the
:26:13. > :26:15.Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil
:26:16. > :26:21.Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As
:26:22. > :26:24.far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party
:26:25. > :26:28.formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He
:26:29. > :26:33.says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.
:26:34. > :26:39.He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What
:26:40. > :26:41.do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many
:26:42. > :26:46.months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas
:26:47. > :26:50.Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi
:26:51. > :26:57.chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the
:26:58. > :27:03.moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth
:27:04. > :27:05.running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I
:27:06. > :27:10.understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip
:27:11. > :27:15.if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.
:27:16. > :27:19.Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and
:27:20. > :27:23.support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate
:27:24. > :27:28.and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,
:27:29. > :27:31.people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the
:27:32. > :27:37.party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You
:27:38. > :27:42.have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it
:27:43. > :27:46.could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too
:27:47. > :27:50.optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'
:27:51. > :27:55.time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the
:27:56. > :28:00.guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a
:28:01. > :28:05.little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get
:28:06. > :28:09.seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will
:28:10. > :28:12.of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a
:28:13. > :28:14.magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.
:28:15. > :28:16.Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often
:28:17. > :28:19.should because this week it was pulled into
:28:20. > :28:20.the global spotlight, thanks
:28:21. > :28:29.Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that
:28:30. > :28:33.had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open
:28:34. > :28:36.Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred
:28:37. > :28:39.and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking
:28:40. > :28:42.about a report he had watched on Fox News.
:28:43. > :28:45.But as if to prove he was onto something,
:28:46. > :28:47.next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb
:28:48. > :28:50.with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas
:28:51. > :28:59.So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?
:29:00. > :29:02.In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second
:29:03. > :29:09.That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced
:29:10. > :29:10.border restrictions and stopped offering permanent
:29:11. > :29:18.Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,
:29:19. > :29:21.although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven
:29:22. > :29:30.Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants
:29:31. > :29:32.have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.
:29:33. > :29:34.Although the country does have the highest reported
:29:35. > :29:37.rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises
:29:38. > :29:42.were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.
:29:43. > :29:44.Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled
:29:45. > :29:50.Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes
:29:51. > :29:53.Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers
:29:54. > :30:06.We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the
:30:07. > :30:08.governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and
:30:09. > :30:24.The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,
:30:25. > :30:29.pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later
:30:30. > :30:33.serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm
:30:34. > :30:38.so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is
:30:39. > :30:43.misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is
:30:44. > :30:47.important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for
:30:48. > :30:50.the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate
:30:51. > :30:59.that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social
:31:00. > :31:02.unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical
:31:03. > :31:09.backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic
:31:10. > :31:13.reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of
:31:14. > :31:20.crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo
:31:21. > :31:25.attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that
:31:26. > :31:29.was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox
:31:30. > :31:34.News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that
:31:35. > :31:39.because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish
:31:40. > :31:45.authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant
:31:46. > :31:47.to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly
:31:48. > :31:53.the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides
:31:54. > :31:59.because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force
:32:00. > :32:04.which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of
:32:05. > :32:09.evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the
:32:10. > :32:12.rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the
:32:13. > :32:16.rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar
:32:17. > :32:21.forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian
:32:22. > :32:26.authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity
:32:27. > :32:32.so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of
:32:33. > :32:37.lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is
:32:38. > :32:42.difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many
:32:43. > :32:47.crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault
:32:48. > :32:52.are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman
:32:53. > :33:00.goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped
:33:01. > :33:06.her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as
:33:07. > :33:10.365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news
:33:11. > :33:14.from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the
:33:15. > :33:20.last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times
:33:21. > :33:26.higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo
:33:27. > :33:30.where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.
:33:31. > :33:34.Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now
:33:35. > :33:40.dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what
:33:41. > :33:45.I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for
:33:46. > :33:49.people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is
:33:50. > :33:55.a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we
:33:56. > :33:58.want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to
:33:59. > :34:04.receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because
:34:05. > :34:08.having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I
:34:09. > :34:13.think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at
:34:14. > :34:18.one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed
:34:19. > :34:22.that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it
:34:23. > :34:28.sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.
:34:29. > :34:31.Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do
:34:32. > :34:35.everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other
:34:36. > :34:40.countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you
:34:41. > :34:43.look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country
:34:44. > :34:48.they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live
:34:49. > :34:56.in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start
:34:57. > :35:03.enterprise. Why have you not been so good at integrating migrants? The
:35:04. > :35:07.unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than
:35:08. > :35:12.non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and
:35:13. > :35:17.the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have
:35:18. > :35:22.brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do
:35:23. > :35:25.much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration
:35:26. > :35:30.that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated
:35:31. > :35:32.and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and
:35:33. > :35:41.working in different fields of society, and they help our country.
:35:42. > :35:47.Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes
:35:48. > :35:52.time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I
:35:53. > :35:55.put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a
:35:56. > :36:00.result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad
:36:01. > :36:04.as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can
:36:05. > :36:09.put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of
:36:10. > :36:16.these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.
:36:17. > :36:21.Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,
:36:22. > :36:26.they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees
:36:27. > :36:31.into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for
:36:32. > :36:34.the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge
:36:35. > :36:40.in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in
:36:41. > :36:44.Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt
:36:45. > :36:48.about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly
:36:49. > :36:54.exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish
:36:55. > :37:04.authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo
:37:05. > :37:14.registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010
:37:15. > :37:17.people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got
:37:18. > :37:24.to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are
:37:25. > :37:28.people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own
:37:29. > :37:34.agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our
:37:35. > :37:38.country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to
:37:39. > :37:42.people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say
:37:43. > :37:46.they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say
:37:47. > :37:51.again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.
:37:52. > :37:57.Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we
:37:58. > :38:01.have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped
:38:02. > :38:05.in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That
:38:06. > :38:09.happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An
:38:10. > :38:13.upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then
:38:14. > :38:18.total denial by an entire political class is now something that is
:38:19. > :38:21.happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial
:38:22. > :38:26.that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not
:38:27. > :38:33.answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to
:38:34. > :38:40.admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is
:38:41. > :38:44.covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by
:38:45. > :38:50.ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right
:38:51. > :38:54.parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what
:38:55. > :38:57.I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain
:38:58. > :39:01.way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background
:39:02. > :39:05.of the people living there but rather because of different
:39:06. > :39:11.socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows
:39:12. > :39:14.immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish
:39:15. > :39:18.authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and
:39:19. > :39:22.after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the
:39:23. > :39:26.Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual
:39:27. > :39:33.molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to
:39:34. > :39:37.think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out
:39:38. > :39:43.but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum
:39:44. > :39:47.seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in
:39:48. > :39:52.last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on
:39:53. > :39:56.getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do
:39:57. > :40:00.our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course
:40:01. > :40:13.on integration and making sure people get a job, and also
:40:14. > :40:16.on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for
:40:17. > :40:19.eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big
:40:20. > :40:22.tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am
:40:23. > :40:23.grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.
:40:24. > :40:26.It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:40:27. > :40:28.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:40:29. > :40:42.the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking if the Government is facing defeat
:40:43. > :40:45.Welcome to the Sunday Politics in the West.
:40:46. > :40:48.Coming up: Building the dream - our local councils want to build
:40:49. > :40:51.200,000 new homes, but do they have any chance of doing so?
:40:52. > :40:57.With councils facing the squeeze, I'm joined by two people who've been
:40:58. > :41:03.They are the leaders of our two biggest local authorities.
:41:04. > :41:05.Baroness Jane Scott is the Conservative leader
:41:06. > :41:09.And Marvin Rees is the Labour Mayor of Bristol.
:41:10. > :41:17.It got rather rowdy in Bristol this week as the council set its budget.
:41:18. > :41:21.Proceedings were interrupted and police called as a ?16 million
:41:22. > :41:31.At other councils, services have also been slashed and taxes
:41:32. > :41:32.raised, prompting even conservatives to complain.
:41:33. > :41:40.We can say enough is enough, we can't take any more.
:41:41. > :41:42.We're going to stand together, we're going to fight
:41:43. > :41:52.And there were protests inside with pretty city councils
:41:53. > :41:54.budget setting meeting even suspended while the public
:41:55. > :41:57.Eventually, after six hours, the ruling Labour
:41:58. > :42:04.Council tax up 5%, jobs lost and services cut.
:42:05. > :42:09.The social glue that holds the city together is going to be eroded.
:42:10. > :42:13.All the things that we take for granted are going to be eroded
:42:14. > :42:18.and are going to disappear because of this.
:42:19. > :42:21.Our libraries, our community partnerships, our leisure
:42:22. > :42:26.How are parks going to pay for themselves?
:42:27. > :42:31.The same day, 25 miles away and quite a contrast.
:42:32. > :42:33.Wiltshire set their budget with the ruling
:42:34. > :42:40.We are seen as a pioneer in terms of pushing the boundaries
:42:41. > :42:44.and doing things differently from local government.
:42:45. > :42:47.One big difference, it's a unitary authority,
:42:48. > :42:51.Bristol and Wiltshire are similar in population
:42:52. > :42:57.providing similar services, but in different ways.
:42:58. > :43:04.A you years ago, Wiltshire reduced staffing and now relies more
:43:05. > :43:08.Both councils have similar numbers of libraries,
:43:09. > :43:10.but a third of Wiltshire's are run by volunteers.
:43:11. > :43:16.Bristol, by contrast, staffs all of its branches
:43:17. > :43:21.But not all Conservative councils are like Wiltshire as the Secretary
:43:22. > :43:24.of State for Local Government should have known when he came to Somerset
:43:25. > :43:27.this week for the launch of their campaign to keep control
:43:28. > :43:33.What we've seen here in Somerset County,
:43:34. > :43:36.through this manifesto, through some of the things that John
:43:37. > :43:39.has already talked about, is just what a difference you have
:43:40. > :43:43.made to people's lives right here the county.
:43:44. > :43:46.There are reduced library opening hours, reduced bin collections,
:43:47. > :43:52.absolutely no major road improvement schemes,
:43:53. > :43:55.cuts to drug advisory services, cuts to youth clubs,
:43:56. > :43:58.less funding to support the elderly in their own homes and
:43:59. > :44:04.This was a debate on local government funding the previous day.
:44:05. > :44:14.We have to now accept that in rural areas public services have not just
:44:15. > :44:16.been cut to the bone, they have had all the
:44:17. > :44:19.So, I try to find out if the Minister agreed
:44:20. > :44:26.People want to see their council tax bill go lower rather than higher
:44:27. > :44:28.so they accept that when changes do need to be made...
:44:29. > :44:31.So if the investment is going into adult social care,
:44:32. > :44:35.as it is in this coming financial year, I think pie
:44:36. > :44:43.They won't be cut if you have the right administration.
:44:44. > :44:46.But the MPs says, the Conservative MP here says they have cut things
:44:47. > :44:49.like drug advisory services, youth club, support for the elderly.
:44:50. > :44:52.What we've seen here is you've got the right leadership that
:44:53. > :44:54.has been making some of these tough decisions.
:44:55. > :44:57.That is to protect most vital services and that's
:44:58. > :45:05.There was no hint that cuts in funding for local
:45:06. > :45:10.On May the 4th, voters can decide who will take charge of cutting
:45:11. > :45:20.Jane Scott, which cut did you feel the most unhappy about?
:45:21. > :45:27.I'm always unhappy about making people redundant if I have two.
:45:28. > :45:34.Not make them compulsorily redundant and I hope I don't this year.
:45:35. > :45:37.You haven't mentioned a single cut in your speech.
:45:38. > :45:41.No, but my cabinet member responsible did to talk about 200
:45:42. > :45:43.job losses and hopefully those will all come from
:45:44. > :45:49.But support for adults with learning difficulties,
:45:50. > :45:59.reduced adult social care, reduced the ground repairs, reduced.
:46:00. > :46:04.Because we do differently in Wiltshire.
:46:05. > :46:07.You can see with what we've done with children's centres,
:46:08. > :46:10.And there are 867 volunteers, not 750.
:46:11. > :46:22.We try to deliver services in a more modern way and I think
:46:23. > :46:25.that is the key to the success of an authority.
:46:26. > :46:27.That, and doing things in a more businesslike way as well.
:46:28. > :46:30.OK, but your own government grant has been reduced by 17.6%.
:46:31. > :46:33.That is austerity being delivered from central government locally.
:46:34. > :46:37.Do you ever say to Theresa, that is enough?
:46:38. > :46:40.As Conservative councillors, particularly, we talk
:46:41. > :46:43.to our government about the fact that it has probably gone far enough
:46:44. > :46:45.and that if you look at what the government is doing
:46:46. > :46:48.and it's saying, no more grants from us, you're going to rely
:46:49. > :46:51.on your non-domestic rates and your council tax,
:46:52. > :46:53.But this is ruthless austerity, isn't it?
:46:54. > :46:57.Marvin, it's people like you that have two implement it.
:46:58. > :47:11.We are at city and local government level and it's a massive challenge.
:47:12. > :47:14.When we first started down this path, one of the things I was very
:47:15. > :47:16.concerned about was if people in Westminster hadn't really
:47:17. > :47:20.taken account of the fact that there is a cost to the cuts.
:47:21. > :47:22.If you impact on our ability to intervene earlier in people's
:47:23. > :47:24.lives, you have two build physical resilience, mental health
:47:25. > :47:27.into people's lives, jobs skills, they turn up requiring public
:47:28. > :47:29.services later on in life so it can be a false economy.
:47:30. > :47:32.Do you think people might ask, what was the point of electing
:47:33. > :47:34.Labour mayor who's going to impose Tory cuts?
:47:35. > :47:38.I don't think that's a justified question,
:47:39. > :47:41.but that's been one of the arguments of the critics.
:47:42. > :47:44.My point is that we've come in, we have a set of values and we've
:47:45. > :47:46.been driving through what we do in local government
:47:47. > :47:49.in a way that we believe is in line with our values.
:47:50. > :47:51.Protecting the most vulnerable in all possible ways.
:47:52. > :47:56.What I would also say is we've got to appreciate that Bristol is not
:47:57. > :48:02.We have two big universities, a huge private sector,
:48:03. > :48:05.other public sector organisations and a big voluntary sector.
:48:06. > :48:08.The real art of getting outcomes for people in Bristol has to look
:48:09. > :48:11.beyond just what the City Council does but to look at the collective,
:48:12. > :48:14.combined impact of all those organisations.
:48:15. > :48:16.Only today I was at a board meeting talking about
:48:17. > :48:20.the Local Enterprise Partnership talking about inclusive
:48:21. > :48:32.But you've still imposed ?60 million worth of cuts and you've got
:48:33. > :48:37.It's what our party requires and it's competence.
:48:38. > :48:40.One of the most important things we can do for Bristol
:48:41. > :48:42.is deliver a financially competent local authority.
:48:43. > :48:44.We have a challenging settlement from central government,
:48:45. > :48:47.we also are dealing with a very challenging inheritance surrounding
:48:48. > :48:50.mismanagement of the Council's finances and we are having to work
:48:51. > :48:55.What was the cut that you found the most difficult?
:48:56. > :48:58.Clearly, cuts surrounding children's services.
:48:59. > :49:01.This was big because, with my background in public health,
:49:02. > :49:03.I know that if you get children off to the best possible
:49:04. > :49:07.start in life, you build resilience into their lives.
:49:08. > :49:09.So, you are actually doing things you don't want to do?
:49:10. > :49:13.We are all doing things we don't want to do at a local level.
:49:14. > :49:18.It's about being a businesslike authority.
:49:19. > :49:23.When I moved to a unitary council in 2009, the back office costs
:49:24. > :49:28.for our council were 19% of our spend.
:49:29. > :49:33.By doing that, you are cutting your back offices and that then
:49:34. > :49:36.makes very little effect to your front line services.
:49:37. > :49:40.That's what a lot of councils have got to get very strong on and do
:49:41. > :49:44.Do you accept you might be able to take some advice from Wiltshire?
:49:45. > :49:50.We are working closely with our core city partners and I'm also a member
:49:51. > :49:53.of the global parliament of mayors so we are drawing on experiences
:49:54. > :49:55.of cities all around the world as to how they manage
:49:56. > :50:00.Again, we've got to get to a point where we understand that shaping
:50:01. > :50:02.life in a city is not just about local government.
:50:03. > :50:10.When we talk about cohesion in place, it's about the sports
:50:11. > :50:12.offer, football clubs, big employers, health services.
:50:13. > :50:18.How do we get the collective impact of those organisations?
:50:19. > :50:22.Are you surprised, on a political point, that despite the cuts
:50:23. > :50:24.which are happening in every single local authority, Labour
:50:25. > :50:35.This is a Westminster focused conversation.
:50:36. > :50:38.Labour is in charge of every core city, that's ten core cities.
:50:39. > :50:40.That's a third of the population and a big chunk
:50:41. > :50:44.So, if you take a Westminster view, which you shouldn't do
:50:45. > :50:47.at a regional level, but if you take a Westminster view
:50:48. > :50:49.of politics, Labour are having a tough time even though
:50:50. > :50:59.Coming down to a city level, Labour are actually in power.
:51:00. > :51:02.I think we should look at Copeland last night.
:51:03. > :51:06.One of the biggest challenges facing local councils is how
:51:07. > :51:11.In the West, we need another city the size of Bristol just to keep up.
:51:12. > :51:12.But from angry locals to reluctant developers,
:51:13. > :51:15.there are also lots of obstacles in the way.
:51:16. > :51:27.They all love dressing up like builders but we still don't have
:51:28. > :51:29.So, people of my generation, as the Community
:51:30. > :51:31.Secretary said, can only window shop.
:51:32. > :51:34.On any high street today, you will see young people with their
:51:35. > :51:36.faces pressed against estate agents' windows dreaming of owning or
:51:37. > :51:42.All of our local councils have their own
:51:43. > :51:45.housing targets over the next decade or two.
:51:46. > :51:50.Add them all up and you've over 200,000 new homes.
:51:51. > :51:53.Or, to put it another way, another Bristol.
:51:54. > :52:00.Despite these grand targets, supply is way
:52:01. > :52:04.In Chippenham, it would appear to be an old-fashioned one.
:52:05. > :52:06.It's the last nice scenic landscape in the
:52:07. > :52:09.Steve Perry campaigns against urban sprawl on
:52:10. > :52:21.I came here because we love the town, but the bottom line
:52:22. > :52:23.is we're not building the housing people need.
:52:24. > :52:25.We're providing housing that people don't need.
:52:26. > :52:29.We're providing multinational housing developers
:52:30. > :52:35.with huge profits for selling corporate houses to people who don't
:52:36. > :52:43.A lack of affordable homes has seen campaigners take to the streets.
:52:44. > :52:47.Take this plan for 135 swanky new homes on an old factory
:52:48. > :52:53.Developers say they can only afford doing six affordable ones.
:52:54. > :52:56.The strength of feeling in Bristol is immense.
:52:57. > :52:59.People are desperate to have affordable housing.
:53:00. > :53:01.Actually, this is a fact that is of national
:53:02. > :53:06.If we don't have councils standing up to greedy,
:53:07. > :53:09.profiteering developers now, what will happen is in a few
:53:10. > :53:13.years we'll have a worse and worse housing crisis.
:53:14. > :53:17.At a planning meeting this week, councillors said they
:53:18. > :53:21.were powerless to change the plans and waved them through.
:53:22. > :53:23.I've repeatedly asked the developers to
:53:24. > :53:27.comment, but with planning in the bag, they've refused.
:53:28. > :53:29.So, is the answer for councils to don their own
:53:30. > :53:32.hard hats, high vis and build it themselves?
:53:33. > :53:36.These are council houses built on council land.
:53:37. > :53:42.This is your first interview in a hard hat
:53:43. > :53:47.Absolutely, but hopefully not the last one.
:53:48. > :53:50.You know, I'm hoping that I'll be spending a lot
:53:51. > :53:53.of time going around building sites in Bristol seeing lots of new
:53:54. > :53:57.In total, we're looking at sites that we are
:53:58. > :54:03.They won't all be built straightaway.
:54:04. > :54:05.Some of the schemes might take ten years, but we're
:54:06. > :54:13.absolutely dedicated in having as many homes built as possible.
:54:14. > :54:16.The Labour administration is planning to
:54:17. > :54:19.pump millions into setting up its own housing company for more like
:54:20. > :54:24.this in the hope of a housing wind of change.
:54:25. > :54:27.Marvin, you always said in the election campaign,
:54:28. > :54:31.You have a target - how is that going?
:54:32. > :54:34.2,000 a year by 2020 so we have to build our capacity.
:54:35. > :54:38.I'm not saying it will be plain sailing.
:54:39. > :54:40.It will be a real challenge to get there.
:54:41. > :54:43.It was always a stretched target but we've got committed
:54:44. > :54:44.political leadership and we are breaking ground.
:54:45. > :54:48.What are the biggest obstacles to getting housing built?
:54:49. > :54:51.Among the challenges we face, and there are many, is our power
:54:52. > :54:57.You were seeing their development on a private site that has minimal
:54:58. > :55:00.affordable housing and we're very limited in the power we have to
:55:01. > :55:07.It's one of the conversations that I, with the core cities,
:55:08. > :55:10.the ten biggest cities outside of London, are going to be talking
:55:11. > :55:16.How do you empower us as a city to make sure we get our share?
:55:17. > :55:19.So, you're saying your hands are tied?
:55:20. > :55:22.Well, the weighting of power when it comes to negotiations
:55:23. > :55:24.is in the hands of private developers unless it's on our land.
:55:25. > :55:27.One of the things we have done is stop selling off council-owned
:55:28. > :55:32.land so we can have much more control over the mix of housing.
:55:33. > :55:35.Do you have that problem in Wiltshire?
:55:36. > :55:38.Yes, we always have the problem of the number of houses that
:55:39. > :55:42.Interestingly, we are looking at perhaps modular housing.
:55:43. > :55:45.That means build houses that are built off-site.
:55:46. > :55:52.They are very different and there are a lot of new technologies.
:55:53. > :55:54.But that's the way you will get more houses built.
:55:55. > :55:59.Exactly, but these are very high-value houses
:56:00. > :56:05.If you go across to the continent, you will see many of
:56:06. > :56:13.So we want to look at that so we can get more of our 42,000 houses that
:56:14. > :56:17.we're going to have to build by 2026 built out quicker.
:56:18. > :56:20.How do you feel about the fact that, under this Conservative government,
:56:21. > :56:23.most, or many millions of young people, can wave goodbye
:56:24. > :56:35.Well, I think in Wiltshire that is our biggest priority.
:56:36. > :56:38.Yes, we need to look at social housing for very specific people
:56:39. > :56:41.but most of young people in Wiltshire, if they are in
:56:42. > :56:43.good jobs, they want to buy their own homes.
:56:44. > :56:46.So it's really important we get those houses built because,
:56:47. > :56:47.at the moment, there's not enough for them.
:56:48. > :56:49.This is one of the real crunch points.
:56:50. > :56:52.I take the point about modular housing as well.
:56:53. > :56:56.We have to look at all different ways of having
:56:57. > :57:00.It actually comes into context of the previous
:57:01. > :57:04.Some services we end up spending money on our because we haven't
:57:05. > :57:06.provided people with stable homes in the first instance.
:57:07. > :57:10.Of all the priorities we've set out, providing children and families
:57:11. > :57:12.with stable homes in settled communities where they have
:57:13. > :57:16.resilience built into the fabric of everyday life is one of the most
:57:17. > :57:20.significant social policy interventions we can make.
:57:21. > :57:23.And yet those sorts of services are being cut.
:57:24. > :57:26.Yes, that's why I'm saying we have two build in other ways as well.
:57:27. > :57:29.So, what I'm saying is some services come
:57:30. > :57:30.in because we haven't provided people with those
:57:31. > :57:35.We've talked about building homes, but homes and communities.
:57:36. > :57:44.It's the community bit that we need to build on.
:57:45. > :57:57.Rather than going to a GP, for example.
:57:58. > :58:00.they have a good network of neighbours to do some of the work
:58:01. > :58:02.of building resilience and relationships
:58:03. > :58:05.You have a target of building 226 social homes over
:58:06. > :58:10.That's not exactly going to go far, is it?
:58:11. > :58:12.No, but that's what we're spending money on ourselves so those
:58:13. > :58:14.will be very specific to our ageing population.
:58:15. > :58:16.They will be sheltered housing and extra care housing.
:58:17. > :58:23.What we will be expecting is our developers to provide the 30%
:58:24. > :58:25.which they haven't provided in the past and we
:58:26. > :58:29.And when you talk to developers and say, I want you to build
:58:30. > :58:32.a housing estate like this one near Chippenham and I need them
:58:33. > :58:34.to be affordable for people with young families,
:58:35. > :58:37.First is that they can't afford to do that.
:58:38. > :58:41.But you have two push them and we have delivered.
:58:42. > :58:43.We've delivered 600 out of the 2000 in the last year.
:58:44. > :58:46.We will continue to do that but those will be
:58:47. > :58:54.Well, we will our waiting to see what comes out of the next
:58:55. > :59:00.The big builders do have quite a lot of say when it comes
:59:01. > :59:03.to the rules on housing because they want to
:59:04. > :59:11.Yes, the viability assessment and they say they can't afford it.
:59:12. > :59:14.But I want to make a point and let developers know loud and clear,
:59:15. > :59:18.on the land we own in Bristol, we are looking for long-term
:59:19. > :59:21.relationships with developers who have a proven track record
:59:22. > :59:25.of delivering affordable homes on their sites.
:59:26. > :59:30.Those who do not have a track record will struggle to get an answer to...
:59:31. > :59:34.The other thing you need to say is not just our sites,
:59:35. > :59:37.it's all public sector sites so we should be looking
:59:38. > :59:42.The Ministry of Defence in Wiltshire, in particular.
:59:43. > :59:47.Well, we've got a property being disposed of at the moment
:59:48. > :59:50.by the MoJ and they haven't come to me to talk about it
:59:51. > :59:52.and they should have which is a problem.
:59:53. > :00:05.Let us have a look through the week in 60 seconds.
:00:06. > :00:13.The MP for South West Wiltshire will look into claims lives were put at
:00:14. > :00:18.risk by failures in the computer system that Dorset and Wiltshire
:00:19. > :00:23.fast service use. I'm alarmed we appear to have a system that
:00:24. > :00:30.routinely goes down. It's not acceptable to have ongoing issues of
:00:31. > :00:33.this sort. The system needs to be sorted. A parish councillor in
:00:34. > :00:38.Gloucestershire was asked to stand down after he was accused of posting
:00:39. > :00:42.Winter was also suspended by Ukip. Winter was also suspended by Ukip.
:00:43. > :00:49.Business projects across the West were given millions of pounds of the
:00:50. > :00:51.mid-money and among them aside apart based at GCHQ and centre to develop
:00:52. > :00:55.cars of the future at Bristol and cars of the future at Bristol and
:00:56. > :00:59.Bath science Park. North Somerset Council is bringing
:01:00. > :01:02.back traffic wardens after a 10-year absence, taking back enforcement
:01:03. > :01:09.powers from the police. Drivers go where. -- beware.
:01:10. > :01:18.So, that was the week. A couple of So, that was the week. A couple of
:01:19. > :01:22.other things. Brexit. Use it in the House of Lords and you voted Out.
:01:23. > :01:26.When you try and first-rate a hard Brexit will go along with what the
:01:27. > :01:31.buy minister once? I will go along with what the Prime Minister once
:01:32. > :01:35.but it's about what the people wanted in the referendum and they
:01:36. > :01:39.clearly said they wanted out of Europe and we should deliver what
:01:40. > :01:44.they want. Do you think they realised that it was out of the
:01:45. > :01:48.single market and all the other bits and pieces? Absolutely, the people I
:01:49. > :01:54.talk to know exactly what they voted for. What effect will Brexit have on
:01:55. > :01:59.Bristol? Not good. It was the wrong answer to the challenge. I don't
:02:00. > :02:05.have as much confidence that people were fully aware because during the
:02:06. > :02:10.time, the debate was confused and full of bluff and bluster. So it's a
:02:11. > :02:14.challenge for us and Bristol is an international city so we need our
:02:15. > :02:19.international and global collectivity. Do you think the Lords
:02:20. > :02:23.will succeed in confronting the Prime Minister even though she was
:02:24. > :02:29.there glowering at them? I do think she will come back in again. I think
:02:30. > :02:32.there will be challenges and amendments during the committee
:02:33. > :02:36.stage, but I hope they won't go through because we just need to
:02:37. > :02:41.think back to the referendum which said the people of this country
:02:42. > :02:50.wanted out of Europe. And talking about Mr Trump. His state visit in
:02:51. > :02:55.June. Should things get a bit noisy in London and they want to get him
:02:56. > :03:00.act of the smoke, perhaps due Birmingham, or Bristol. Would you
:03:01. > :03:04.welcome him? No, I wouldn't welcome him to Bristol but that is not a
:03:05. > :03:07.rejection of the relationship with US. There are men is not a rejection
:03:08. > :03:10.of the relationship with US. There are amazed that overseeing big
:03:11. > :03:17.economies we can build international relationships with. But you would
:03:18. > :03:23.not welcome Donald Trump? It is a bad brand of politics. What about
:03:24. > :03:26.Wiltshire? The president of the United States, I'm sure would be
:03:27. > :03:33.welcome at Stonehenge and that's the only places likely to want to come.
:03:34. > :03:35.I think we have two not think of it as Donald Trump but as the president
:03:36. > :03:54.of the United States. Thank you both Welcome back. Article 50, which
:03:55. > :03:58.triggers the beginning of Britain leaving the European Union and start
:03:59. > :04:03.negotiations, is winding its way through the Lords in this coming
:04:04. > :04:09.week. Tarzan has made an intervention, let's just see the
:04:10. > :04:14.headline from the Mail on Sunday. Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine,
:04:15. > :04:17.my fightback starts here, he is going to defy Theresa May. I divide
:04:18. > :04:22.one Prime Minister over the poll tax, I'm ready to defy this one in
:04:23. > :04:28.the Lords over Brexit. There we go, that's going to happen this week. We
:04:29. > :04:33.will see how far he gets. I don't think he will get very far, I don't
:04:34. > :04:37.think Loyalist Tory MPs and Brexiteers are quaking in their
:04:38. > :04:41.boots at the prospect of a rebellion led by Michael Heseltine. I sense
:04:42. > :04:45.that many Tory MPs are already moving on to the next question about
:04:46. > :04:50.Brexit, and the discussion over how much it will cost us to come out.
:04:51. > :04:57.The fact they are already debating that suggests to me they feel things
:04:58. > :05:00.will go fairly smoothly in terms of the legislation. When I spoke to the
:05:01. > :05:05.Labour leader in the Lords last week on the daily politics, she said she
:05:06. > :05:12.was going to push hard for the kind of amendments Lord has all-time is
:05:13. > :05:18.talking about and they would bring that back to the Commons. But if the
:05:19. > :05:21.Commons pinged it back to the Lords with the amendments taken out, she
:05:22. > :05:28.made it clear that was the end of it. Is that right? That's about
:05:29. > :05:32.right. This is probably really a large destruction. There will be to
:05:33. > :05:38.micro issues that come up in the Lords, one is on the future of EU
:05:39. > :05:43.nationals, that could be voted on as soon as this Wednesday, and then the
:05:44. > :05:47.main vote in the Lords on a week on Tuesday, when there is this question
:05:48. > :05:52.of what sort of vote will MPs and peers get at the end of the Brexit
:05:53. > :05:55.process and that is what has all-time is talking about. He wants
:05:56. > :06:00.to make sure there are guarantees in place. The kind of things peers are
:06:01. > :06:03.looking for are pretty moderate and the Government have hinted they
:06:04. > :06:08.could deliver on both of them already. But they are still not
:06:09. > :06:14.prepared... Amber Rudd said they were not prepared... They may say
:06:15. > :06:19.yes we are going to do that but they won't allow whatever that is to be
:06:20. > :06:23.enshrined in the legislation. The question is whether we think this is
:06:24. > :06:26.dancing on the head of a pin. The Government have already promised
:06:27. > :06:30.something in the House of Commons, but will they write it down, I don't
:06:31. > :06:34.think that's the biggest problem in the world. In a sense this is a
:06:35. > :06:40.great magicians trick by Theresa May because it is not the most important
:06:41. > :06:44.thing. The most important thing in Brexit is going on in those
:06:45. > :06:46.committees behind closed doors when they are trying to work out what the
:06:47. > :06:51.next migration system is for Britain and there are some interesting,
:06:52. > :06:56.indeed toxic proposals, but at the moment Downing Street are happy to
:06:57. > :07:01.let us talk about the constitutional propriety of what MPs are doing over
:07:02. > :07:05.the next eight days. It seems to me the irony is that if we had a second
:07:06. > :07:10.chamber that can claim some kind of democratic legitimacy, which the one
:07:11. > :07:15.we have cannot, it would be able to cause the Government more trouble on
:07:16. > :07:18.this, it would be more robust. Absolutely. I saw the interview we
:07:19. > :07:28.did with the Labour Leader of the Lords, they are very conscious, of
:07:29. > :07:32.the fact they are not elected and have limited powers. She was clear
:07:33. > :07:36.to you they would not impede the timetable for triggering Article 50
:07:37. > :07:41.so we might get a bit of theatre, Michael Heseltine might deliver a
:07:42. > :07:46.brilliant speech. It is interesting that Euroscepticism gun under
:07:47. > :07:51.Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party but two offer senior ministers Ken
:07:52. > :07:54.Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the most prominent opponents now but
:07:55. > :07:59.they will change nothing at this point. She will have the space to
:08:00. > :08:03.trigger Article 50 within her timetable. Let's move on. Let me
:08:04. > :08:09.show you a picture tweeted by Nigel Farage.
:08:10. > :08:17.That is Nigel Farage and a small group of people having dinner, and
:08:18. > :08:21.within that small group of people is the president of the United States,
:08:22. > :08:26.and it was taken in the last couple of days. This would suggest that if
:08:27. > :08:31.he can command that amount of the President's time in a small group of
:08:32. > :08:36.people, then he's actually rather close to the president. Make no
:08:37. > :08:39.mistake about it, Nigel Farage is now to and fro Washington more
:08:40. > :08:47.regularly than perhaps he is here. Hopefully that LBC programme is
:08:48. > :08:52.recorded over in the state. He's not only close to the president but to a
:08:53. > :08:56.series of people within the administration. That relationship
:08:57. > :09:00.there is a remarkable one and one to keep an eye on. Will the main
:09:01. > :09:07.government be tempted to tap into that relationship at any time or is
:09:08. > :09:14.it just seething with anger? You can feel a ripple of discontentment over
:09:15. > :09:17.this. We are in the middle of negotiating the state visit and the
:09:18. > :09:22.sort of pomp and circumstance and what kind of greeting Britain should
:09:23. > :09:25.give Donald Trump when he comes over later in the year. There is a great
:09:26. > :09:30.deal of neurotic thought going into what that should look like, but one
:09:31. > :09:33.of the most interesting things about our relationship with Donald Trump
:09:34. > :09:37.is that there is a nervousness among some Cabinet ministers that we are
:09:38. > :09:41.being seen to go too far, too fast with the prospect of a trade deal.
:09:42. > :09:45.Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet ministers, they worry we won't get a
:09:46. > :09:49.very good trade deal with the US and we are tolerably placing a lot of
:09:50. > :09:54.stalled by it. When we see the kind of deal they want to pitch with us
:09:55. > :10:02.there might be some pulling back and that could be an awkward moment in
:10:03. > :10:04.terms of our relationship, and no doubt Nigel at that term -- at that
:10:05. > :10:11.point will accuse the UK of doing the dirty on Donald Trump. If there
:10:12. > :10:18.was a deal, would they get it through the House of Commons? Nigel
:10:19. > :10:22.Farage is having dinner with the president, not bad as a kind of
:10:23. > :10:26.lifestyle but he's politically rootless, he won't be an MEP much
:10:27. > :10:31.longer so if you look at where is his political base to build on this
:10:32. > :10:35.great time he's having, there is one. Given that there is one I think
:10:36. > :10:39.he's just having a great time and it isn't much more significant than
:10:40. > :10:51.that. No? There's a lot to be said for having a great time. You are
:10:52. > :10:57.having a great time. Let's just look, because of the dominance of
:10:58. > :11:03.the Government we kind of it nor there are problems piling up, only
:11:04. > :11:07.what, ten days with the Budget to go, piling up for Mrs May and her
:11:08. > :11:13.government. The business rates which has alarmed a lot of Tories, this
:11:14. > :11:17.disability cuts which are really a serious problem for the Government,
:11:18. > :11:22.and the desperate need for more money for social care. There are
:11:23. > :11:26.other issues, there are problems there and they involve spending
:11:27. > :11:29.money. Absolutely and some people argue Theresa May has only one
:11:30. > :11:34.Monday and that is to deliver Brexit but it is impossible as a Prime
:11:35. > :11:41.Minister to ignore everything else. And she doesn't want to either. The
:11:42. > :11:44.bubbling issue of social care and the NHS is the biggest single
:11:45. > :11:48.problem for her in the weeks and months ahead, she has got to come up
:11:49. > :11:53.with something. And Mr Hammond will have to loosen his belt a little
:11:54. > :11:57.bit. I think he will in relation to the NHS, he didn't mention it in the
:11:58. > :12:01.Autumn Statement, which was remarkable, and he cannot get away
:12:02. > :12:04.with not mentioning it this time. If he mentions it, it has to be in a
:12:05. > :12:09.positive context in some way or another and it is one example of
:12:10. > :12:14.many. She is both strong because she is so far ahead in the opinion
:12:15. > :12:18.polls, but this in tray is one of the most daunting a Prime Minister
:12:19. > :12:24.has faced in recent times I think. Here is what will happen on Budget
:12:25. > :12:31.day, money will be more money, magically found down the back of the
:12:32. > :12:35.Treasury sofa. The projections are that he has wiggle room of about 12
:12:36. > :12:38.billion. But look at the bills, rebels involved in business rates
:12:39. > :12:45.suggest the Chancellor will have to throw up ?2 billion at that problem.
:12:46. > :12:47.3.7 billion is the potential cost of this judgment about disability
:12:48. > :12:53.benefits. The Government will try to find different ways of satisfying it
:12:54. > :12:57.but who knows. It will not popular. I'm not sure they will throw money
:12:58. > :13:00.at the NHS, they want an interim settlement on social care which will
:13:01. > :13:06.alleviate pressure on the NHS but they feel... That's another couple
:13:07. > :13:11.of billion by the way. They feel in the Treasury that the NHS has not
:13:12. > :13:18.delivered on what Simon Stevens promised them. But here is the
:13:19. > :13:22.bigger problem for Philip Hammond, he has two This year and he thinks
:13:23. > :13:24.the second one in the autumn is more important because that is when
:13:25. > :13:27.people will feel the cost living squeeze.
:13:28. > :13:30.The Daily Politics is back at noon on BBC Two tomorrow.
:13:31. > :13:33.We'll be back here at the same time next week.
:13:34. > :13:39.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.