:00:36. > :00:38.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:39. > :00:42.She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,
:00:43. > :00:55.After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.
:00:56. > :00:57.With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,
:00:58. > :01:01.Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.
:01:02. > :01:05.NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission
:01:06. > :01:09.impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,
:01:10. > :01:12.unless hospitals are given more cash this year.
:01:13. > :01:22.In the west, down on the farm, do Providers joins me live.
:01:23. > :01:23.In the west, down on the farm, do food producers know what leaving the
:01:24. > :01:27.EU really means or did All that to come before 12:15pm,
:01:28. > :01:37.and I'll also be talking to the former leader
:01:38. > :01:40.of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg from his party's spring
:01:41. > :01:42.conference in York. With me here in the studio,
:01:43. > :01:47.throughout the programme, three of the country's top political
:01:48. > :01:48.commentators: Tom Newton Dunn,
:01:49. > :01:54.Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards. They'll be tweeting their
:01:55. > :01:56.thoughts using #bbcsp. So, the political challenges facing
:01:57. > :01:59.Theresa May are stacking up. As well as negotiating
:02:00. > :02:05.Britain's exit from the EU, the PM must now deal with SNP
:02:06. > :02:08.demands for a second referendum on Scottish independence,
:02:09. > :02:12.backbenchers agitating against cuts to school budgets, and a humiliated
:02:13. > :02:16.Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key budget measure just one week
:02:17. > :02:21.after announcing it. Here's Adam Fleming
:02:22. > :02:22.on aturbulent political week Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather
:02:23. > :02:39.in the residence of the First Minister of Scotland,
:02:40. > :02:41.who's got a surprise. She wants a vote on whether Scotland
:02:42. > :02:43.should leave the UK By taking the steps I have set out
:02:44. > :02:48.today I am ensuring that Scotland's future will be decided,
:02:49. > :02:50.not just by me, the Scottish Government,
:02:51. > :02:51.or the SNP, it will be decided
:02:52. > :02:54.by the people of Scotland. Westminster, 6:25pm
:02:55. > :03:04.the same day, MPs reject amendments to the legislation
:03:05. > :03:07.authorising the Prime Minister to The Bill ceremonially heads
:03:08. > :03:21.to the Lords where peers abandoned attempts to change it
:03:22. > :03:23.and it becomes law. But Downing Street doesn't trigger
:03:24. > :03:30.Article 50 as many had expected. Some say they were spooked
:03:31. > :03:33.by Nicola Sturgeon. We get an e-mail from
:03:34. > :03:49.the Treasury can the We get an e-mail from
:03:50. > :03:51.the Treasury cancelling the planned rise in
:03:52. > :04:02.National Insurance for the self-employed
:04:03. > :04:04.announced the budget. It's just minutes before
:04:05. > :04:05.Prime Minister's Questions at noon. The trend towards greater
:04:06. > :04:08.self-employment does create a We will bring forward
:04:09. > :04:10.further proposals but we will not bring forward
:04:11. > :04:13.increases to NICs later in this It seems to me like a government
:04:14. > :04:17.in a bit of chaos here. By making this change today
:04:18. > :04:20.we are listening to our colleagues fulfil both the letter
:04:21. > :04:24.and the spirit of our manifesto tax Thursday, 7am, Conservative
:04:25. > :04:33.campaign HQ and the Electoral Commission fines the party
:04:34. > :04:36.?70,000 for misreporting spending But that's not what
:04:37. > :04:38.the Prime Minister Because at 12:19pm she
:04:39. > :04:45.gives her verdict on a We should be working
:04:46. > :04:50.together, not pulling apart. We should be working
:04:51. > :04:52.together to get that right deal for Scotland,
:04:53. > :04:53.that So, as I say, that's my job
:04:54. > :04:58.as Prime Minister and so for that reason I say to the SNP
:04:59. > :05:01.now is not the time. Friday and time for
:05:02. > :05:04.the faithful to gather. SNP activists at their
:05:05. > :05:05.spring conference Conservatives in Cardiff
:05:06. > :05:16.to hear the Prime Minister promote her plan for a more
:05:17. > :05:20.meritocratic Brexit Britain. At 11:10am comes some news
:05:21. > :05:22.about a newspaper that's frankly I'm thrilled and excited to be
:05:23. > :05:28.the new editor of The Evening Standard and,
:05:29. > :05:30.you know, with so many big issues in our world
:05:31. > :05:32.what good analysis, great news
:05:33. > :05:38.journalism. It's a really important time
:05:39. > :05:42.for good journalism that The Evening Standard
:05:43. > :05:44.is going to provide. There was no let-up yesterday
:05:45. > :05:51.as Gordon Brown launched proposals Under my proposals
:05:52. > :05:56.we keep the Barnett Formula, we keep the fiscal
:05:57. > :06:00.transfers, but we also bring the and fisheries back to the Scottish
:06:01. > :06:04.Parliament. And just think, all this and we're
:06:05. > :06:23.still counting down to the What a week in politics. It has been
:06:24. > :06:27.a torrid week for the government, Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa
:06:28. > :06:31.May shake it off, or is this a sign of worse to come? We may all be
:06:32. > :06:38.feeling a bit breathless after the events of last week and we are in
:06:39. > :06:42.for a a long war of attrition with the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy
:06:43. > :06:47.will be to foster over lengthy periods of time as much resentment
:06:48. > :06:52.and anger as she can in Scotland and try to create the impression that
:06:53. > :06:56.independence is somehow inevitable. Is Scotland the biggest challenge
:06:57. > :07:00.for Theresa May in the next year or so? I think it probably is because
:07:01. > :07:03.if you look at how relatively easily the Brexit bill went through on an
:07:04. > :07:07.issue where people could hardly feel more passionate in the Commons, and
:07:08. > :07:10.actually despite all the potential drama it has gone through quite
:07:11. > :07:16.smoothly. To go back to your original question, she just carries
:07:17. > :07:21.on. Don't underestimate the basic quiet and will towards Theresa May
:07:22. > :07:24.amongst the majority of Tory backbenchers. Yes, there are
:07:25. > :07:28.difficult little issues over school funding, sorry, it's not a little
:07:29. > :07:33.issue, it is a big one but she will get over that and treat each thing
:07:34. > :07:35.as it comes and keep pressing on. Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's
:07:36. > :07:41.Bluff in that the First Minister said I want a referendum, here is
:07:42. > :07:46.roughly when I wanted, the Prime Minister says you're not having one.
:07:47. > :07:50.What happens next? She has done quite well and impact the progress
:07:51. > :07:54.Theresa May made this week in frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was
:07:55. > :07:57.evident when Nicola Sturgeon said, OK, maybe we can talk about the
:07:58. > :08:01.timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has already been the first one to blink.
:08:02. > :08:05.I would slightly disagree with Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree
:08:06. > :08:10.Scotland will be the biggest hurdle for her. What this week showed as is
:08:11. > :08:14.Theresa May... It was a reality bites week. Theresa May is juggling
:08:15. > :08:17.four mammoth crises at the same time, Brexit obviously which I still
:08:18. > :08:24.think will be the biggest challenge to get a good deal, Trump left field
:08:25. > :08:28.who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and Scotland and the fiscal challenge,
:08:29. > :08:35.this enormous great problem, and it reinforced the point this is not an
:08:36. > :08:38.easy time in politics. The budget is over four years. That was one small
:08:39. > :08:42.problem, the immediate problem is how to fill the social care crisis
:08:43. > :08:45.and the ageing demographic. This is not normal times in British politics
:08:46. > :08:49.and Theresa May does not have a normal workload on her plate, hence
:08:50. > :08:53.why I think we will see more mistakes made as time goes on and as
:08:54. > :08:59.she has this almost impossible workload to juggle. How tempted do
:09:00. > :09:03.you think the Prime Minister is to call an early election? There is
:09:04. > :09:07.more chatter about it now. Is she tempted and if there is will she
:09:08. > :09:10.succumb? I will answer that in a second as Harold Wilson used to say.
:09:11. > :09:14.I want to agree, disagree with the rest of the panel about how she has
:09:15. > :09:19.out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this week. I think Nicola Sturgeon
:09:20. > :09:22.expected Theresa May to say no to her expected timetable. It would be
:09:23. > :09:27.amazing if she had said yes. She expected her to say no but Sturgeon
:09:28. > :09:34.catalyst that will fuel support for her cause. There is no sign of that.
:09:35. > :09:37.The latest poll this morning shows 66-44 against independence and only
:09:38. > :09:42.13% think they would be better off with an independent Scotland and a
:09:43. > :09:46.clear majority do not want a second referendum. But the calculation of
:09:47. > :09:49.resistance from Westminster combined with Brexit which hasn't started
:09:50. > :09:53.yet, I think this is her calculation, she didn't expect
:09:54. > :09:58.Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead, I'm sure she expected Theresa May to
:09:59. > :10:02.say no, you can't have it at your desired timetable. On the wider
:10:03. > :10:05.point, I think Theresa May is in a fascinating position, she is both
:10:06. > :10:09.strong because she faces weak opposition and is ahead in the
:10:10. > :10:15.opinion polls. But faces the most daunting agenda of any Prime
:10:16. > :10:19.Minister for 40 or 50 years, I think. So it's a weird combination.
:10:20. > :10:22.I don't think she wants to call an election. I don't think she has
:10:23. > :10:26.thought about how you would manipulate it, what the trigger
:10:27. > :10:30.would be, and whether she's got the energy and space to prepare for and
:10:31. > :10:35.then mount a campaign was beginning the Brexit negotiation. Now, you
:10:36. > :10:40.could see the cause would be the small majorities that will make her
:10:41. > :10:44.life hellish, which it will do. Whether a landslide would help is
:10:45. > :10:46.another question, they can be difficult too. But I think the
:10:47. > :10:52.problems outweigh the advantages of going early. Do you think she would
:10:53. > :10:55.go for an early election? I don't and I think you have to look at the
:10:56. > :10:59.rhetoric coming out of No 10 which is so firm on this question, it is a
:11:00. > :11:02.delicious prospect for us as commentators to think there might be
:11:03. > :11:07.an election around the corner but they are so firm on this I can't see
:11:08. > :11:10.it happening. I agree, we are in unanimous agreement on this one. It
:11:11. > :11:13.is superficially attractive because she would love the big majority and
:11:14. > :11:17.she would get a lot more through Parliament especially with Brexit.
:11:18. > :11:20.The nitty-gritty of it makes an early General Election this year
:11:21. > :11:26.almost impossible. How do you write a manifesto on high Brexit versus
:11:27. > :11:31.soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's box of uncertainties. And there is
:11:32. > :11:34.enough with the European elections. The EU will say are we negotiating
:11:35. > :11:37.with you or the person who may replace you? How do you keep the
:11:38. > :11:41.Tory party united going to an election? How do you call one, with
:11:42. > :11:45.a vote of no confidence in yourself you may end up losing. Easy on paper
:11:46. > :11:47.but difficult in practice. We shall see.
:11:48. > :11:49.So if Theresa May did go for an early election this spring,
:11:50. > :11:53.The party's campaigns and elections chief Andrew Gwynne
:11:54. > :12:01.Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we have just been talking about,
:12:02. > :12:05.executed one of the most embarrassing U-turns in recent
:12:06. > :12:09.history this week. It has been a torrid time for the Theresa May
:12:10. > :12:11.government. Why are the Tories still so chipper?
:12:12. > :12:16.The Labour Party has been on an early election footing since before
:12:17. > :12:20.Christmas and we are preparing ourselves for that eventuality in
:12:21. > :12:25.case that does come. That means that we've got to get ourselves into a
:12:26. > :12:30.position whereby we can not only challenge the government but we can
:12:31. > :12:36.also offer a valuable alternative for the British people to choose
:12:37. > :12:40.from should that election arise. So, would you welcome an early General
:12:41. > :12:43.Election? Well, of course, I don't want this government to be in power
:12:44. > :12:47.so of course if there is an opportunity to put a case to the
:12:48. > :12:51.British people as to why there is a better way, and I believe the Labour
:12:52. > :12:55.way is the better way than of course we would want to put that case to
:12:56. > :13:01.the country. So, would Labour vote in the Commons for an early
:13:02. > :13:05.election? Well, of course as an opposition, not wanting to be in
:13:06. > :13:10.opposition, wanting to be in government should the government put
:13:11. > :13:13.forward a measure in accordance with the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then
:13:14. > :13:16.that's something we would very seriously have to consider. I know
:13:17. > :13:20.you would have to consider it but would you vote for an early election
:13:21. > :13:24.or not? Well, of course we want to be the government so if the current
:13:25. > :13:28.government puts forward measures to bring forward a General Election we
:13:29. > :13:31.would want to put our case to the British public and that's one of the
:13:32. > :13:37.jobs that I've been given, together Labour Party organisation early into
:13:38. > :13:41.a position where we can fight a General Election --
:13:42. > :13:45.organisationally. For the avoidance of doubt, if the Government work to
:13:46. > :13:49.issue a motion in the Commons for an early election, the Labour Party
:13:50. > :13:53.would vote for an early election? It would be very difficult not,
:13:54. > :13:57.Andrew. If the Government wants to dissolve parliament, wants a General
:13:58. > :14:00.Election, we don't want the Tories in government, we want to be in
:14:01. > :14:03.government and we want to have that opportunity to put that case to the
:14:04. > :14:12.British people. Are you ready for an early election?
:14:13. > :14:15.You say you have been on a war all but since the Labour conference last
:14:16. > :14:17.autumn, but are you ready for one? How big is the election fighting
:14:18. > :14:21.fund? We have substantial amounts of money in our fighting fund, that is
:14:22. > :14:28.true, because not only has the Labour Party managed to eliminate
:14:29. > :14:32.its own financial deficit that it inherited from previous election
:14:33. > :14:38.campaigns, we have also managed to build up a substantial fund in the
:14:39. > :14:44.off chance we have an election. We have also expanded massively
:14:45. > :14:47.operations at Labour HQ, we are taking on additional staff, and one
:14:48. > :14:52.of the jobs that myself and Ian Lavery who I job share with are
:14:53. > :14:55.currently doing is to go around the Parliamentary Labour Party to make
:14:56. > :15:00.sure that Labour colleagues have the support and the resources that they
:15:01. > :15:03.need, should they have to face the electorate in their constituencies.
:15:04. > :15:07.So you are on a war footing, ready for the fight, you say you would
:15:08. > :15:13.vote for the fight, so have you got your tax and spend policies ready to
:15:14. > :15:16.roll out? That is something the shadow Treasury team will be
:15:17. > :15:20.discussing. One of the things is, if there is an early General Election,
:15:21. > :15:25.the normal timetable for these things gets fast-track because our
:15:26. > :15:30.policy decision-making body, its annual conference, we have the
:15:31. > :15:33.national policy forum that creates policies suggestions. You have been
:15:34. > :15:37.on a war footing since the last Labour conference, that is what Mr
:15:38. > :15:42.Corbyn told us. So you must have a fair idea of what policies you would
:15:43. > :15:46.fight an early election on. How much extra per year would you spend on
:15:47. > :15:50.the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going to set out the Labour manifesto for
:15:51. > :15:55.an election that hasn't been called. I'm just asking you about the NHS.
:15:56. > :16:01.You must have a policy for that. We have a policy for the NHS. So how
:16:02. > :16:04.much extra? I will not set out Labour's tax-and-spend policies here
:16:05. > :16:08.on The Sunday Politics when there hasn't even been election called.
:16:09. > :16:13.You said you had been on a war footing and you are prepared to vote
:16:14. > :16:17.for one, so if you can't Tommy that, can you tell me what the corporation
:16:18. > :16:25.rate tax on company profits be under a Labour government -- tell me that.
:16:26. > :16:28.You will have to be patient. I have. And wait for Mrs May to trigger an
:16:29. > :16:32.early election. If there is an election on the 4th of May the rich
:16:33. > :16:37.would have to be issued on the 27th of March, so that's not long to
:16:38. > :16:41.wait. If that date passes we aren't having an election on the 4th of May
:16:42. > :16:46.and the normal timetable for policy development will continue. All
:16:47. > :16:50.right. You lost Copeland, I think you were in charge of a by-election
:16:51. > :16:56.for Labour, your national poll ratings are still dire, even after
:16:57. > :16:59.week of terrible times for the Tories. Sometimes you even lose
:17:00. > :17:04.local government by-elections in safe seats, including in the place
:17:05. > :17:09.you are now, in Salford. How long does Mr Corbyn have to turn this
:17:10. > :17:13.around? Well, look, the issue of the Labour leadership was settled last
:17:14. > :17:16.year. The last thing the Labour Party now needs is another period of
:17:17. > :17:23.introspection with the Labour Party merely talks to the Labour Party. We
:17:24. > :17:27.are now on an election footing in case Mrs May does trigger an early
:17:28. > :17:32.General Election. We need to be talking to the British people are
:17:33. > :17:37.not to ourselves. So any speculation about the Labour leadership might
:17:38. > :17:41.excite you in the media but actually for us in the Labour Party it's
:17:42. > :17:45.about re-engaging and reconnecting with the voters. Rather than being
:17:46. > :17:50.excited, I feel quite daunted at the prospect of an early election. So I
:17:51. > :17:55.wouldn't get that right. Normally, given the number of mistakes this
:17:56. > :17:57.government has made, and its mid-term, you would expect any
:17:58. > :18:02.self-respecting opposition to be about ten points ahead. On the
:18:03. > :18:09.latest polls this morning you are 17 behind. There is a 27-30 point gap
:18:10. > :18:12.from where you should normally be as an opposition. Are you telling me
:18:13. > :18:13.that if that doesn't change, you still fight the General Election
:18:14. > :18:23.with Mr Corbyn? These are matters for the future. I
:18:24. > :18:29.believe the leadership issue was settled last year. We have had two
:18:30. > :18:34.leadership contest in two years. Would you seriously contemplate
:18:35. > :18:38.going into the next election, if it is early I perfectly understand
:18:39. > :18:43.Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it is not until 2020, and you are still
:18:44. > :18:48.17 points behind in the polls, will you go into the next election like
:18:49. > :18:57.that? There is a lot of future looking and speculation there, I
:18:58. > :19:00.don't know what the future holds, where the Labour Party will be in 12
:19:01. > :19:02.months let alone by 2020 summit cross those bridges when we come to
:19:03. > :19:06.it. My main challenge is to make sure the Labour Party is in the best
:19:07. > :19:09.possible place organisationally to fight an election, that's my
:19:10. > :19:12.challenge and I'm up for that to make sure we are in the best
:19:13. > :19:17.possible place to make sure Labour returns as many Labour MPs as
:19:18. > :19:23.possible. Thank you for joining us. And we're joined now
:19:24. > :19:25.from the Liberal Democrats' spring conference in York by the former
:19:26. > :19:34.Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg. Good morning. In his conference
:19:35. > :19:38.speech today, Tim Farron lumps Theresa May with Vladimir Putin,
:19:39. > :19:48.Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In what way is Mrs May similar to
:19:49. > :19:51.Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not saying Theresa May is identical to
:19:52. > :19:57.Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim Wilby spelling out shortly in his
:19:58. > :19:59.speech is that we need to be aware what's going on in the world, the
:20:00. > :20:10.International settlement that was arrived at after the First World --
:20:11. > :20:15.Second World War, that bound supranational organisations is under
:20:16. > :20:19.attack from characters as diverse as Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and
:20:20. > :20:23.Donald Trump, and that by side in so ostentatiously with Donald Trump and
:20:24. > :20:28.pursuing this very hard Brexit, Theresa May appears to be giving
:20:29. > :20:32.succour to that much more isolationist chauvinist view of the
:20:33. > :20:38.world than the multilateral approach that Britain has subscribed to for a
:20:39. > :20:44.long time. The exact words he plans to use are welcome to the New World
:20:45. > :20:50.order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, Theresa May,
:20:51. > :20:56.aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU, nationalistic. In what way is Mrs
:20:57. > :21:01.May fitting into any of that? In what way is she similar to Vladimir
:21:02. > :21:06.Putin? I'm not aware she has interfered with other people's
:21:07. > :21:12.elections. The clue is in the quote you just read out, which is the
:21:13. > :21:16.world order. The world order over the last half century or more, by
:21:17. > :21:20.the way a lesson I'm afraid we have to learn in Europe because of the
:21:21. > :21:25.terrible bloodshed of two world was in the space of a few decades, was
:21:26. > :21:29.based on the idea might is not right. Strong arm leaders cannot
:21:30. > :21:37.throw their weight around. What we have now with Putin, the populism
:21:38. > :21:43.across parts of Europe and Donald Trump who thinks the EU will unravel
:21:44. > :21:49.is a shift to a radically different view of the world. Mrs May doesn't
:21:50. > :21:53.think any of that. She is not antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she
:21:54. > :21:58.wants the EU to succeed. She's not aggressive as far as I'm aware so
:21:59. > :22:06.I'm not sure why you would lump the British Prime Minister in with these
:22:07. > :22:10.other characters. Let me explain, by choosing this uncompromising
:22:11. > :22:16.approach to Brexit, clearly in doing so she, in my view, maybe not yours
:22:17. > :22:20.or others, is pursuing a self harming approach to the United
:22:21. > :22:26.Kingdom but also pulling up the threads that bind the rest of the
:22:27. > :22:30.European Union together, in so ostentatiously siding with Donald
:22:31. > :22:39.Trump, somehow declaring in my view speciously that we can make up with
:22:40. > :22:42.the trade we will lose, she's not challenging the shift to a more
:22:43. > :22:47.chauvinist approach to world affairs that is happening in many places.
:22:48. > :22:52.You are at your party's Spring conference, I think we can agree any
:22:53. > :22:59.Lib Dem come back will take a long time. Would Tory dominance be more
:23:00. > :23:01.effectively challenged by a realignment of the centre and the
:23:02. > :23:07.centre-left? Are you working towards that? I missed half the question but
:23:08. > :23:14.I think you are talking about a realignment. As a cook a way to get
:23:15. > :23:20.over Tory dominance, would you want that to happen? Are you working
:23:21. > :23:23.towards that? My view is the recovery of the Lib Dems will be
:23:24. > :23:28.quicker than you suggest. People often forget that even the low point
:23:29. > :23:32.of our fortunes in the last election we still got a million more votes
:23:33. > :23:41.than the SNP, it's only because we have got this crazy electoral
:23:42. > :23:47.system... But the SNP fight in Scotland, you fight in the whole
:23:48. > :23:55.country! But I'm saying the way seats are allocated overlooks the
:23:56. > :23:59.fact that 2.5 million still voted for us. But my own view is of course
:24:00. > :24:03.there are people feeling increasingly homeless in the liberal
:24:04. > :24:07.wing of the Conservative Party because they are now in a party
:24:08. > :24:14.which is in effect indistinguishable from Ukip on some of the biggest
:24:15. > :24:17.issues of the day, and homeless folk on the rational, reasonable wing of
:24:18. > :24:21.the Labour Party. I would invite them to join the Liberal Democrats
:24:22. > :24:26.and I would invite everyone across parties to talk about the idea is
:24:27. > :24:31.that bind us because the Westminster village can invest a lot of energy
:24:32. > :24:34.building new castles in the sky, inventing new names for parties when
:24:35. > :24:41.actually what you want is for people on the progressive centre ground of
:24:42. > :24:49.British politics to talk about the ideas that unite them, from the
:24:50. > :24:55.dilemmas of artificial intelligence to climate change. Do you think in
:24:56. > :25:03.your own view, can Brexit still be thwarted or is it now a matter of
:25:04. > :25:07.getting the best terms? I think we are in an interlude, almost a calm
:25:08. > :25:12.between two storms, the storm of the referendum itself and the collision
:25:13. > :25:16.between the Government's stated ambitions for Brexit and the reality
:25:17. > :25:21.of having to negotiate something unworkable with 27 other
:25:22. > :25:24.governments. The one thing I can guarantee you is that what the
:25:25. > :25:37.Government has promised to the British people cannot happen. Over a
:25:38. > :25:41.slower period of time we will work out our new relationship with the
:25:42. > :25:48.European Union. Theresa May said she will settle divorce arrangements,
:25:49. > :25:52.and pensions, so one, negotiate new trade agreements, new climate change
:25:53. > :25:55.policies and so on, and have all of that ratified within two years, that
:25:56. > :26:01.will not happen so I think there will be a lot of turbulence in the
:26:02. > :26:06.next couple of years. Will you use this turbulence to try to thwart
:26:07. > :26:12.Brexit, to find a way of rolling back the decision? It's not about
:26:13. > :26:16.repeating the debates of the past or thwarting the will of the people but
:26:17. > :26:21.it is comparing what people were promised from the ?350 million for
:26:22. > :26:27.the NHS every week through to this glittering array of new trade
:26:28. > :26:31.agreements we will sign across the world, with the reality that will
:26:32. > :26:35.transpire in the next couple of years and at that point, yes it is
:26:36. > :26:40.my belief people should be able to take a second look at if that is
:26:41. > :26:49.what they really want. A couple of quick questions, would you welcome
:26:50. > :26:54.an early general election? I always welcome them, we couldn't do worse
:26:55. > :26:58.than we did last time. That is certainly true. You have a column in
:26:59. > :27:02.the Evening Standard, have you spoken to the new editor about
:27:03. > :27:11.whether he will keep your column or spike it? No, I wait in nervous
:27:12. > :27:17.anticipation. Can you be a newspaper editor in the morning and an MP in
:27:18. > :27:22.the afternoon? Do I think that's feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit.
:27:23. > :27:28.There is no prohibition, no law against MPs being editors. They have
:27:29. > :27:35.been in the past and no doubt will again in the future. He is taking a
:27:36. > :27:40.lot on, he is an editor, also wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting
:27:41. > :27:45.academic in the States, working in the city, I suspect something will
:27:46. > :27:49.give. It seems to me even by his self-confidence standards in his own
:27:50. > :27:54.abilities I suspect he is taking on a little bit too much. Very
:27:55. > :27:56.diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you will get to keep the column. Thanks
:27:57. > :28:01.for joining us. Now, for the last six months
:28:02. > :28:03.England's NHS bosses have been warning the health service needs
:28:04. > :28:06.more money to help it meet But in his first Budget,
:28:07. > :28:09.the Chancellor offered no immediate relief,
:28:10. > :28:11.and today the head of the organisation representing
:28:12. > :28:13.England's NHS trusts says hundreds of thousands of patients will have
:28:14. > :28:16.to wait longer for both emergency care and planned operations,
:28:17. > :28:17.unless the Government Warnings over funding
:28:18. > :28:25.are not exactly new. Back in 2014 the head of the NHS
:28:26. > :28:28.in England, Simon Stevens, published his plan for the future
:28:29. > :28:32.of the health service. In his five-year forward view,
:28:33. > :28:35.Stevens said the NHS in England would face a funding shortfall of up
:28:36. > :28:38.to ?30 billion by 2020. To bridge that gap he said the NHS
:28:39. > :28:41.would need more money from the Government,
:28:42. > :28:45.at least ?8 billion extra, and that the health service
:28:46. > :28:48.could account for the rest by making The Government says it's given
:28:49. > :28:55.the health service more than what it asked for, and that NHS
:28:56. > :28:57.in England will have received That number is disputed by NHS
:28:58. > :29:03.managers and the chair of Parliament's health committee,
:29:04. > :29:05.who say the figure is more like ?4.5 billion, while other parts
:29:06. > :29:08.of the health and social care budget have been cut, putting
:29:09. > :29:14.pressure on the front line. Last year, two thirds of NHS
:29:15. > :29:17.trusts in England finished the year in the red,
:29:18. > :29:20.and despite emergency bailouts from the Government,
:29:21. > :29:22.the NHS is likely to record Meanwhile national targets
:29:23. > :29:27.on waiting times for A departments, diagnostic tests,
:29:28. > :29:29.and operations are being This month's Budget provided
:29:30. > :29:37.?2 billion for social care but there was no new cash
:29:38. > :29:41.for the NHS, leading trusts to warn that patient care is beginning
:29:42. > :29:44.to suffer, and what is being asked And I'm joined now by
:29:45. > :29:50.the Chief Executive of NHS Providers in England,
:29:51. > :30:00.Chris Hopson. Welcome to the programme. Morning,
:30:01. > :30:04.Andrew. I will come onto the extra money you need to do your job
:30:05. > :30:08.properly in a minute but first, part of the deal was you had to make 22
:30:09. > :30:12.billion in efficiency savings, not a bank that money but spend it on
:30:13. > :30:17.patient care, the front line, and so on. How is that going? So, last
:30:18. > :30:20.parliament we realised around 18 billion of productivity and
:30:21. > :30:25.efficiency savings, we are realising more this year so we are on course
:30:26. > :30:29.to realise 3 billion this year, that is a quarter of a billion more than
:30:30. > :30:33.last year but all of us in the NHS knew the 22 billion would be a very
:30:34. > :30:38.stretching target and we are somewhat inevitably falling short.
:30:39. > :30:49.So it is 22 billion by 2,020. Roughly. That was the time. We are
:30:50. > :30:52.now into 2017. So how much of the 22 billion have you achieved? We
:30:53. > :30:57.realised around 3 billion last year and we will realise 3 billion this
:30:58. > :31:02.year, Court of billion more, 3.25 billion this year, so we are on
:31:03. > :31:07.course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the 2021 period? You are not that far
:31:08. > :31:11.away. The problem is the degree to which demand is going up. We have
:31:12. > :31:16.record demand over the winter period and that actually meant we have seen
:31:17. > :31:19.more people than we have ever seen before but performance is still
:31:20. > :31:25.under real pressure. Let me come onto that. When you agreed on the 22
:31:26. > :31:29.billion efficiency savings plus some extra money from the government, I
:31:30. > :31:34.know there is a bit of an argument about how much that is actually
:31:35. > :31:40.worth, had you not factored in this extra demand that you saw coming
:31:41. > :31:44.over the next three or four years? Let's be very clear committee
:31:45. > :31:49.referred to Simon Stevens's forward view and we signed up to it but the
:31:50. > :31:51.22 billion was a process run at the centre of government by the
:31:52. > :31:55.Department of Health with its arms length bodies, NHS England and
:31:56. > :32:00.others and is not something that was consulted on with the NHS. But you
:32:01. > :32:05.signed up to it. We always said that the day that that Spending Review
:32:06. > :32:08.was announced, the idea that the NHS where customer demand goes up
:32:09. > :32:12.something like four or 5% every year, the idea that in the middle
:32:13. > :32:16.years of Parliament we would be able to provide the same level of service
:32:17. > :32:23.when we were only getting funding increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%,
:32:24. > :32:26.and I can show you the press release we issued, we always said there was
:32:27. > :32:30.going to be a gap and that we would not be able to deliver what was
:32:31. > :32:36.required. The full 22 billion in other words? What we said to Simon
:32:37. > :32:41.Stevens at the Public Accounts Committee a few months ago, the NHS
:32:42. > :32:46.didn't get what it was asked for. Today the NHS, cope with the
:32:47. > :32:52.resources it has according to you. How much more does it need? Are
:32:53. > :32:56.reported is about 2017-18 and we estimate that what we are being
:32:57. > :33:00.asked to do, and again, Andrew, you clearly set it out in the package,
:33:01. > :33:05.we are a long way off the four-hour A target and a long way off the
:33:06. > :33:10.92%. The waiting times and operations. How much more do you
:33:11. > :33:13.need? And we are making up a ?900 million deficit. If you take all of
:33:14. > :33:18.those into account we estimate you would need an extra ?3.5 billion
:33:19. > :33:23.next year in order to deliver all of those targets and eliminate the
:33:24. > :33:27.deficit. That would be 3.5 billion on top of what is already planned
:33:28. > :33:31.next year and that would be 3.5 billion repeated in the years to
:33:32. > :33:34.come too? Yes, Andrew it is important we should make an
:33:35. > :33:40.important distinction about the NHS versus other public services. When
:33:41. > :33:43.the last government, the last Labour government put extra money into the
:33:44. > :33:48.NHS it clearly said that in return for that it would establish some
:33:49. > :33:52.standards in the NHS Constitution, the 95% A target we have talked
:33:53. > :33:56.about and the 92% elective surgery we have talked about. The trust we
:33:57. > :34:00.represent are very clear, they would want to realise those standards, but
:34:01. > :34:04.you can only do it if you pay for it. The problem is at the moment is
:34:05. > :34:09.we are in the longest and deepest financial squeeze in NHS history. As
:34:10. > :34:13.we have said, funding is only going up by 1% per year but every year
:34:14. > :34:19.just to stand still cost and demand go up by more than 4%. There is
:34:20. > :34:23.clearly a demand for more money. I think people watching this programme
:34:24. > :34:26.will think probably the NHS is going to have to get more money to meet
:34:27. > :34:31.the goals you have been given. I think they would also like to be
:34:32. > :34:36.sure that your Mac running the NHS as efficiently as it could be. We
:34:37. > :34:40.read this morning that trusts have got ?100 million of empty properties
:34:41. > :34:45.that cost 10 million to maintain, 36 office blocks are not being used,
:34:46. > :34:49.you have surplus land equivalent to 1800 football pitches. Yes, there
:34:50. > :34:55.are a number of things that we know in the NHS we need to do better but
:34:56. > :34:59.let me remind you, Andrew, in the last Parliament we realised ?18
:35:00. > :35:04.billion worth of cost improvement gains. We are going to realise
:35:05. > :35:09.another 3 billion this year, 0.25 billion more than last year so these
:35:10. > :35:12.things are being targeted. But having that surplus land, it is
:35:13. > :35:18.almost certainly in areas where there is a demand for housing.
:35:19. > :35:22.Absolutely. So why not release it for housing? You get the money, the
:35:23. > :35:25.people get their houses and its contribution and a signal that you
:35:26. > :35:30.are running NHS assets as efficiently as you can? Tell me if
:35:31. > :35:35.I'm going to too much detail for you. One of the reasons as to why
:35:36. > :35:38.our trusts are reluctant to realise those land sales is because there is
:35:39. > :35:43.an assumption that the money would go back to the Treasury and wouldn't
:35:44. > :35:47.benefit NHS trusts. You could make a deal, couldn't you? That's part of
:35:48. > :35:51.the conversation going on at the moment. The issue is that we would
:35:52. > :35:54.want to ensure that if we do release land, quite rightly the benefit,
:35:55. > :36:06.particularly in foundation trusts which are, as you will remember,
:36:07. > :36:08.deliberately autonomous organisations, that they should keep
:36:09. > :36:09.the benefit of those land sales. Have you raised that with the
:36:10. > :36:20.government? Yes we have. What did they say? They
:36:21. > :36:24.are in discussions of it. We heard somebody who moved from one job and
:36:25. > :36:28.then to another job and given a big salary and then almost ?200,000 as a
:36:29. > :36:32.payoff. There is a national mood for the NHS to get more money. But
:36:33. > :36:36.before you give anybody any more money you want to be sure that the
:36:37. > :36:40.money you have got already is being properly spent, which for us, is the
:36:41. > :36:44.patient at the end of the day. And yet there seem to be these enormous
:36:45. > :36:52.salaries and payoffs. I've worked in a FTSE 100 on the board of Her
:36:53. > :36:54.Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I have worked in large organisations.
:36:55. > :36:58.I can look you completely straight in the eye and tell you that the
:36:59. > :37:01.jobs that our hospital, community, mental health and ambulance chief
:37:02. > :37:05.Executives do are amongst the most complicated leadership roles I have
:37:06. > :37:08.ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to be unreasonable that in order to get
:37:09. > :37:12.the right quality of people we should pay an appropriate salary.
:37:13. > :37:17.The reality is the salaries are paid are not excessive when talking about
:37:18. > :37:20.managing budgets of over ?1 billion a year and talking about managing
:37:21. > :37:28.tens of thousands of staff. There was a doctor working as a locum that
:37:29. > :37:31.earned an extra ?375,000. One of the problems in the NHS is a mismatch
:37:32. > :37:34.between the number of staff we need and the number of staff coming
:37:35. > :37:40.through the pipeline. What is having to happen is if you want to keep a
:37:41. > :37:43.service going you have to use Mackem and agency staff. Even at that cost?
:37:44. > :37:49.You would not want to pay those amounts. But you are. The chief
:37:50. > :37:53.Executives's choice in those areas is giving the service open or
:37:54. > :37:58.employing a locum. I'm sure you could find a locum prepared to work
:37:59. > :38:04.for less than that. What indication, what hopes do you have of getting
:38:05. > :38:08.the extra ?3 billion? The government has been very clear, for the moment
:38:09. > :38:13.it wants to stick to the existing funding settlement it has agreed. So
:38:14. > :38:18.there was nothing in the budget. Can I finish by making one important
:38:19. > :38:22.point. Please, finish. This is the first time the NHS has said before
:38:23. > :38:27.the year has even started that we can't deliver on those standards. We
:38:28. > :38:32.believe, as do most people who work in the NHS, that the NHS is on a
:38:33. > :38:35.gradual slow decline. This is a very important inflection point to Mark,
:38:36. > :38:38.this is the first time before the financial year starts that we say we
:38:39. > :38:43.cannot meet the targets we are being asked to deliver and are in the NHS
:38:44. > :38:45.Constitution. We have run out of time. Chris Hopson, thank you for
:38:46. > :38:46.being with me. It's just gone 11:35am,
:38:47. > :38:48.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:49. > :39:00.in Scotland who leave us now Hello and welcome to the Sunday
:39:01. > :39:03.politics here in the lovely west of As advice services for new
:39:04. > :39:14.disability payments are cut, we ask whether people can still get
:39:15. > :39:16.the help they need. With me to discuss it are two
:39:17. > :39:27.politicians full of the joys of spring, they are Taunton's
:39:28. > :39:29.Conservative MP Rebecca Pow and But first the starting gun on Brexit
:39:30. > :39:36.is due to be fired at the end of this month and it's hard to
:39:37. > :39:40.think of a group with more at stake Many voted out because they don't
:39:41. > :39:44.like the red tape from Brussels, yet they also rely
:39:45. > :39:46.heavily on EU subsidies. Can they survive
:39:47. > :39:51.without all that money? A place where the bottom
:39:52. > :40:01.line does the talking. Deals are struck in
:40:02. > :40:06.the blink of an eye It is a lightning speed that Brexit
:40:07. > :40:13.negotiators could never match. It means our future
:40:14. > :40:15.in Europe is still farmers some sheep farmers
:40:16. > :40:19.get about half their subsidies from the EU,
:40:20. > :40:21.so Brexit really matters here. They have been told
:40:22. > :40:23.the current system stays in place until 2020
:40:24. > :40:29.and after that, well? Without the subsidies,
:40:30. > :40:34.there wouldn't be any farming. You couldn't sustain
:40:35. > :40:35.your business on We could do with more
:40:36. > :40:38.money, couldn't we? Do you think you'll
:40:39. > :40:40.get it outside of I don't think anybody
:40:41. > :40:51.knows, do they? Not everybody was keen on generous
:40:52. > :40:53.subsidies are continuing. They pointed to New Zealand where
:40:54. > :40:56.all subsidies were removed 30 years We are going to see it
:40:57. > :41:00.fade away I think over the next two years,
:41:01. > :41:01.but it will be probably more
:41:02. > :41:03.environmentally led. There will be more
:41:04. > :41:14.environmental-based subsidy But this Government has got
:41:15. > :41:18.a lot of other money to spend it on, it is not just
:41:19. > :41:21.agriculture, the NHS and all these other areas of income
:41:22. > :41:23.as they are going to start picking away at those farming
:41:24. > :41:25.subsidies, I'm afraid. Will this Government
:41:26. > :41:27.continue to back This week at PMQs,
:41:28. > :41:32.to reserve may offer what assurances she could over
:41:33. > :41:35.the future of agriculture. We do have a duty to
:41:36. > :41:45.the food and farming industry when we leave
:41:46. > :41:47.the European union, We've already provided guarantees
:41:48. > :41:50.the support for farmers up to 2020 and I can
:41:51. > :41:53.assure her that we will continue But concerns still linger both
:41:54. > :41:56.in farming and in the food You'll find the world's oldest
:41:57. > :41:59.cheddar cheese manufacturer just outside of Shepton
:42:00. > :42:05.Mallett in Somerset. They've been separating the curds
:42:06. > :42:08.from the whey here for They are worried that
:42:09. > :42:10.Brexit might cost them their protected status that they now
:42:11. > :42:23.proudly display on their products. These are our best-selling
:42:24. > :42:26.products over in the US, These are our best-selling products
:42:27. > :42:29.over in the US, for example. Each cheese has been certified
:42:30. > :42:31.official West Country Farmhouse Cheddar
:42:32. > :42:32.under an EU scheme. It is called products of designated
:42:33. > :42:35.origin, PDO for short, To qualify, your Cheddar must hail
:42:36. > :42:40.from the west, be mature for at least nine months and use at least
:42:41. > :42:43.some elements of traditional practices like this, a process known
:42:44. > :42:45.as Cheddaring the cheese. They are currently trying
:42:46. > :42:47.to tempt the Indian market with these West Country
:42:48. > :42:50.wares, but the potential loss of their PDO status due to Brexit
:42:51. > :42:52.could cost them dearly. If we were not a carrier
:42:53. > :42:55.of the PDO, then a number of consumers abroad
:42:56. > :42:57.probably would miss it. And certainly would
:42:58. > :42:58.start asking questions as to why the product
:42:59. > :42:59.was I think in particular
:43:00. > :43:03.where we're challenging for new markets, and trying
:43:04. > :43:07.to explain our product to new markets, it really does help give us
:43:08. > :43:10.a guarantee of authenticity when we're out there talking to people
:43:11. > :43:13.who don't understand it otherwise. Brexit negotiations have much
:43:14. > :43:16.to consider overcoming days are protecting the proud name of West
:43:17. > :43:19.Country Cheddar is just one more Let's talk about some
:43:20. > :43:25.of those issues. There is evidence that lots
:43:26. > :43:28.of farmers voted for Brexit, much of They might be asking
:43:29. > :43:41.themselves that now, but categorically, a lot of people
:43:42. > :43:43.in the agriculture industry weren't And indeed, we had to
:43:44. > :43:47.fit in with 27 other countries, now we have
:43:48. > :43:48.the opportunity to have a whole rethink
:43:49. > :43:51.on how we manage and run our land. That I think could end up
:43:52. > :43:59.being very beneficial. Of course, the devil will be
:44:00. > :44:02.in the detail and how they But they understand if they do not
:44:03. > :44:07.get an agreement with trading with the rest of the EU,
:44:08. > :44:10.then tariffs could be what? There is a lot of feeding
:44:11. > :44:14.in and negotiating going on at the moment within our own country,
:44:15. > :44:17.a lot of consultation is going on behind-the-scenes with Defra
:44:18. > :44:20.and indeed a Green paper will be launched shortly where people can
:44:21. > :44:23.properly feed in their ideas. But we export ?11
:44:24. > :44:25.billion of agricultural produce, but we import ?28 billion
:44:26. > :44:29.of agricultural produce on the EU, so we are a terribly
:44:30. > :44:31.important market. We are a very important
:44:32. > :44:38.market in the EU for food and drink
:44:39. > :44:40.and agricultural products. So I know that certainly
:44:41. > :44:42.lots of bodies like the NFU and the CLA
:44:43. > :44:45.want the situation to Not to have tariffs
:44:46. > :44:48.imposed on either side. Is certainly think if it is possible
:44:49. > :44:51.to achieve that kind of Clare, the subsidies
:44:52. > :44:55.that farmers get, Government has guaranteed
:44:56. > :44:59.that they will continue to get those subsidies from the British taxpayer
:45:00. > :45:01.for a Do you see that being
:45:02. > :45:04.a priority as time goes by? That is part of the
:45:05. > :45:09.problem that one of the concerns, one of the many concerns
:45:10. > :45:12.that we have got about what does Brexit look like, what shape is it,
:45:13. > :45:17.because the one thing that the common agricultural policy does
:45:18. > :45:18.is provide predictability and But just last week you saw
:45:19. > :45:26.that the Treasury can make an announcement one week
:45:27. > :45:29.and reverse it the next. What it said in terms of promises
:45:30. > :45:32.to the industry with what funding is going to be available
:45:33. > :45:43.isn't guaranteed for seven years. It is barely guaranteed for a week
:45:44. > :45:46.seemingly, at the moment. Would it be a good
:45:47. > :45:48.idea if the subsidies actually went as they
:45:49. > :45:50.have in New Zealand? One thing I wanted to say was that
:45:51. > :45:53.I think they're's going to be much more of a proviso looking
:45:54. > :45:57.at what public goods do you get for Is it paying for services
:45:58. > :46:04.of food production? Is it paying for looking
:46:05. > :46:06.after our land and Having ground for walking
:46:07. > :46:09.on all wild birds? Those environmental areas
:46:10. > :46:12.will be interwoven with the food production sections and that
:46:13. > :46:15.could be all to the good. But we have got to also
:46:16. > :46:18.factor in the rural It is not just about food production
:46:19. > :46:23.or land for the public to use as amenity, we have also got
:46:24. > :46:27.to bear in mind that a lot of the European funding was for
:46:28. > :46:29.supporting rural communities. We have got to factor
:46:30. > :46:31.in how important we think So they lose that, they have
:46:32. > :46:35.got a guarantee they will get it from us for a while,
:46:36. > :46:37.but not indefinitely. The Government has committed
:46:38. > :46:40.to funding until 2020 and certainly there is going
:46:41. > :46:42.to be no cliff edges. We have heard that from Theresa May
:46:43. > :46:44.and from David Davis. There might be a couple
:46:45. > :46:48.of fences though. How do we know there
:46:49. > :46:50.are no cliff edges? Because we have got a whole
:46:51. > :46:53.population to support and this People like me will be
:46:54. > :46:57.fighting for it down And indeed we have got our
:46:58. > :47:01.25 year plan for food and farming coming forward
:47:02. > :47:03.and our environment plan. Subsidising a millionaire
:47:04. > :47:05.farmer isn't going to be at the top of the agenda
:47:06. > :47:07.for most governments? That is why my point about services
:47:08. > :47:10.for public good will And those things are
:47:11. > :47:16.going to be factored in. After all, the farmers are the ones
:47:17. > :47:19.who manage the land. This isn't about
:47:20. > :47:26.criticising the farmers. This is about what predictability
:47:27. > :47:29.Government will provide. It is also another thing
:47:30. > :47:33.that was touched on there, the point about the exports
:47:34. > :47:35.that our industry have, but also imports that would
:47:36. > :47:44.come from elsewhere. At the moment, there are limits
:47:45. > :47:46.of the amounts that can be imported into compete with British
:47:47. > :47:49.farmers from outside the EU. The first thing that
:47:50. > :47:51.comes out in trade We have got very high standards
:47:52. > :47:59.of agricultural produce within the So if there was a trade
:48:00. > :48:03.deal say with the United States, we might well
:48:04. > :48:05.have do except GM crops Or chlorinated chicken,
:48:06. > :48:08.all of those is what the US will be wanting
:48:09. > :48:11.to put on their side. The land that comes
:48:12. > :48:14.in from New Zealand or any of these Secondly, it is the regulatory
:48:15. > :48:17.burden that will come in Hang on, we were told that
:48:18. > :48:22.if we left the EU, all the One thing I will say is that we have
:48:23. > :48:28.also set up the Great British Food Unit and actually
:48:29. > :48:31.we are increasing our food and drink I mean, we are our greatest and most
:48:32. > :48:43.expanding the market. Just one second, if we
:48:44. > :48:45.lose the EU protection for the names on our products like
:48:46. > :48:48.West Country Cheddar, for example, which could happen, then it could be
:48:49. > :48:51.Cheddar made in Poland. I was talking to farm
:48:52. > :48:56.Minister George Eustis about this very week
:48:57. > :48:59.and there is a lot of work going on to keep our protected
:49:00. > :49:01.status for the products that are already protected
:49:02. > :49:03.likely Cheddar cheese that we saw... Because that is all to do
:49:04. > :49:07.with our quality and our standards. How do you stop a farmer
:49:08. > :49:11.from Poland saying this is Because we will have
:49:12. > :49:14.our own legislation but they could sell it in America,
:49:15. > :49:19.couldn't they? No, we already have a good
:49:20. > :49:21.reputation on the world market for That is why the Chinese
:49:22. > :49:27.are coming after us in droves to get hold of everything
:49:28. > :49:30.for the afternoon teas. Outside the UK and how do
:49:31. > :49:42.you actually make sure that our produce can be sold into the EU
:49:43. > :49:45.if we are outside of the... If Brexit is a hard
:49:46. > :49:48.Brexit, which is a real or wrong, those
:49:49. > :49:52.who voted for Brexit? Because my dad always used to say,
:49:53. > :49:55.you fall out of that tree, don't come running to me
:49:56. > :49:57.with a broken leg. They voted for out,
:49:58. > :50:00.don't come and complain We have got to make
:50:01. > :50:04.it work now, yes. Down at the market, you are saying,
:50:05. > :50:07.are you sure you were right that We will try and look
:50:08. > :50:13.after them, won't we? The Government's new disability
:50:14. > :50:16.benefit is rarely out of the news. That is because the test
:50:17. > :50:18.to get a personal independence payment,
:50:19. > :50:19.PIP, it's called, is much more difficult
:50:20. > :50:23.than it used to be and the help to OK, love, well I'll see
:50:24. > :50:37.you when you get back. Sarah has fibromyalgia
:50:38. > :50:39.and a neurological And for first time
:50:40. > :50:43.in 18 months, she can I can get out on the bus,
:50:44. > :50:55.I can take the kids out to the park. What a contrast from
:50:56. > :51:00.last year when I first Her disability benefit PIP had just
:51:01. > :51:06.been cut and she was fighting to get it
:51:07. > :51:17.back at a tribunal. It was very scary and it
:51:18. > :51:20.made me hit rock bottom. It was a massive weight
:51:21. > :51:22.and thinking that you're not going to win or you're
:51:23. > :51:25.not going to get the help that you The extra money brought
:51:26. > :51:33.the chair and peace of mind. I did cry when they told
:51:34. > :51:36.me and I did think it The impact that it
:51:37. > :51:40.has had on me and the children, because they see me
:51:41. > :51:43.getting the help, they are not so worried now and they see me
:51:44. > :51:45.smiling a lot more. Figures seen by the BBC show that
:51:46. > :51:48.that tough journey is The vast majority of people
:51:49. > :51:51.in the Bristol area one there And you've got more
:51:52. > :51:56.chance of winning Trying to claim it
:51:57. > :52:03.on your own by yourself is DWP are asking for a lot more
:52:04. > :52:07.evidence to be able to If you are claiming that
:52:08. > :52:12.by yourself, quite often you don't understand what that evidence
:52:13. > :52:14.could look like or how to obtain it. But is this help
:52:15. > :52:22.and support now under We have been told
:52:23. > :52:35.there is a back log of PIP cases waiting
:52:36. > :52:38.to be heard in Bristol. And huge demand for help and support
:52:39. > :52:42.from people like Sarah. But at the same time,
:52:43. > :52:44.funding for the DFI's agencies that provide that support
:52:45. > :52:46.is under threat. Because councils have
:52:47. > :52:50.to balance their books. So advice services are being
:52:51. > :52:54.squeezed at the same time as council drop-in centres like this
:52:55. > :52:58.one are being closed. The most honourable people
:52:59. > :53:06.are going to suffer because There will be people in this
:53:07. > :53:09.city that will not be supported adequately to claim PIP
:53:10. > :53:12.and help them live more The root cause is the cup
:53:13. > :53:18.from central Government. We are working as best
:53:19. > :53:20.we can to minimise that impact, but we have been honest
:53:21. > :53:23.from the beginning, we know that We know it is going to
:53:24. > :53:37.impact vulnerable people. We are doing the best
:53:38. > :53:40.that we can to avoid that. But are they bearing
:53:41. > :53:42.the vast brunt, if Crewe no, I don't think
:53:43. > :53:45.they are bearing the brunt. Inevitably, the people
:53:46. > :53:47.who received council services are the ones
:53:48. > :53:48.who The Government say that very few PIP
:53:49. > :53:56.dissidents have been overturned People who do lose
:53:57. > :54:00.out can get a one off They insist PIP is a better benefit
:54:01. > :54:03.than what went before. But there is a second
:54:04. > :54:05.review of PIP underway. Sarah and others just want it
:54:06. > :54:08.to be fairer and easier. Joining us to discuss
:54:09. > :54:10.that is the disability Three out of four
:54:11. > :54:14.appeals for these new payments are in fact successful,
:54:15. > :54:17.why is the number so high? Because the right decisions
:54:18. > :54:19.are not being made Well, if you look at the evidence
:54:20. > :54:28.that was put to the first review of PIP, it is because there
:54:29. > :54:33.is not enough time put into checking supporting evidence
:54:34. > :54:41.for people's claims, there has been quite
:54:42. > :54:45.a few cases where it was
:54:46. > :54:46.demonstrated that things have been noted down
:54:47. > :54:48.that the situations where for example a case
:54:49. > :55:02.a couple of weeks ago, where the SS said, well, if you get migraines,
:55:03. > :55:05.which of your impairment is it down And they said, well, I have several
:55:06. > :55:08.impairments and one effect No, I'm sorry, you've got to tell me
:55:09. > :55:13.which impairment it is that it is So when you have got that level
:55:14. > :55:19.of ignorance, to be honest, You think it is right
:55:20. > :55:25.that the disabled people should be PIP isn't about work,
:55:26. > :55:31.by the way, but the estimates from researchers is
:55:32. > :55:35.that the average additional cost for a disabled person is 25%,
:55:36. > :55:46.so for your neighbour If you're getting social care
:55:47. > :55:49.support, probably like that woman that if she were able to apply,
:55:50. > :55:52.that goes up to 50%. Very briefly, how stressful
:55:53. > :55:54.is it if you've been rejected to go through
:55:55. > :55:56.the appeals process? A lot of people don't get that
:55:57. > :56:00.far because they can't I had a woman come to me about four
:56:01. > :56:04.weeks ago and she had been turned down and she was
:56:05. > :56:08.absolutely beside herself. One of the problems
:56:09. > :56:13.as well that doesn't help with assessments is that people
:56:14. > :56:23.that people don't tend to overplay the impact of the payments
:56:24. > :56:26.on their life, they underplay them. Let's bring the other
:56:27. > :56:27.politicians in now. Clare, what would Labour's
:56:28. > :56:29.answer to this be? This is clearly an
:56:30. > :56:32.issue that has to be As was said in the clip,
:56:33. > :56:46.we have got this cascade of cuts that are coming down in terms
:56:47. > :56:49.of support for the people That is why we are seeing
:56:50. > :56:53.the results that we What has happened now is the rate
:56:54. > :56:57.of challenge that is I understand all that,
:56:58. > :57:00.but I was just asking what You need to look at
:57:01. > :57:05.a solution which actually ensures that people get
:57:06. > :57:09.We are an incredibly wealthy country still.
:57:10. > :57:12.This is about political choices about where you spend your
:57:13. > :57:19.It has to be a priority that we look after the people in our
:57:20. > :57:22.So what would fall off the other end?
:57:23. > :57:28.It is impossible for me to say that a
:57:29. > :57:33.We're not in Government, we don't have the books that are open.
:57:34. > :57:35.The Tories, let's bring in Rebecca here.
:57:36. > :57:38.The Tories are attending to cut ?3.7 billion from the disability
:57:39. > :57:43.What I would say is actually 50 billion has been spent
:57:44. > :57:49.on this entire sector and that is 6% of all Government spending.
:57:50. > :57:51.The idea of PIP wasn't to give people a hard
:57:52. > :57:53.time, it was actually to try and make sure
:57:54. > :57:55.that the money goes to the
:57:56. > :57:59.people that most need it in the right way.
:58:00. > :58:01.I do totally understand that there have been some teething
:58:02. > :58:04.problems and we get plenty through our door and we help them.
:58:05. > :58:07.One of the examples you gave was something
:58:08. > :58:11.One chap, he had a mental health issue and he
:58:12. > :58:13.found it so stressful that we enabled him,
:58:14. > :58:16.we wrote in writing for
:58:17. > :58:21.him to go through the system and he had been able to get the money.
:58:22. > :58:23.Rebecca, the system is putting people through hoops, isn't it?
:58:24. > :58:25.If you are not feeling well, or if you
:58:26. > :58:32.are in pain and you have to fight a Government...
:58:33. > :58:35.You actually did a very good documentary on the BBC
:58:36. > :58:37.last night about some of the people claiming benefits they shouldn't
:58:38. > :58:43.We need to make sure the people that really need the money are
:58:44. > :58:46.Actually, a quarter of all people now on PIPs are getting
:58:47. > :58:55.Rebecca, let me just say to you one second.
:58:56. > :59:00.You would have thought if you are going for an
:59:01. > :59:03.assessment, and you are disabled, you will probably try and give the
:59:04. > :59:06.person sitting in front of you in the wheelchair the benefit of the
:59:07. > :59:07.doubt, rather than the other way around.
:59:08. > :59:10.Yes, it is all about how human beings have handled the
:59:11. > :59:15.Is reducing ?3.7 million out of the budget.
:59:16. > :59:20.The cases that we have helped in her office than we
:59:21. > :59:23.do it every day, we have had very good results.
:59:24. > :59:24.The assessment criteria are based on the
:59:25. > :59:36.And although PIP has only been going a little while, the
:59:37. > :59:38.same principle underlines the work capability assessments which we have
:59:39. > :59:47.had for much longer and it has been proven that they don't work either.
:59:48. > :59:50.What I would also say just quickly is a funded charity, if 65% or
:59:51. > :59:56.74 if it is Bristol, of our outputs were wrong,
:59:57. > :59:58.we're not actually up to
:59:59. > :00:03.So why are we spending 500 million and
:00:04. > :00:05.so on on companies and paying civil servants?
:00:06. > :00:08.Remember, everything has to be reconsidered.
:00:09. > :00:13.And so sorry, our time is just going so fast.
:00:14. > :00:16.In a word, would you support not cutting
:00:17. > :00:19.the advisers, people who help disabled people go before the
:00:20. > :00:23.I would support having the right type of advisers with the
:00:24. > :00:28.human touch being able to get the right people what they need.
:00:29. > :00:33.Just time to have a look now at what else is going on in
:00:34. > :00:42.It was revealed this week that five West Country MPs are being
:00:43. > :00:46.investigated over their election expenses.
:00:47. > :00:51.They were questioned by police over visits from the Tory
:00:52. > :00:57.The party's been fined, the MPs deny any
:00:58. > :01:02.Bristol millionaire Aron Banks continued his war of words
:01:03. > :01:04.against Ukip, despite being a major donor, he claimed he'd been
:01:05. > :01:07.suspended from the party and he tweeted this logo which seems
:01:08. > :01:13.There is an independent candidate in the race
:01:14. > :01:15.to become west of England Metro Mayor.
:01:16. > :01:19.Businessman John Savage has announced he's standing.
:01:20. > :01:31.It is an obscenity that people can't get
:01:32. > :01:33.provided with the basic needs of life.
:01:34. > :01:35.And the mayor of Bristol Marvin Rees,
:01:36. > :01:37.went back to his former school for BBC School report.
:01:38. > :01:39.He answered questions on everything from
:01:40. > :01:41.children's mental health to his ambitions to bring powerboat racing
:01:42. > :01:49.My thanks to all my guests for coming in.
:01:50. > :01:52.I will see you all the same time, same place next week.
:01:53. > :01:57.pricing of these buildings. Thank you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back
:01:58. > :02:02.to you. So, can George Osborne stay
:02:03. > :02:05.on as a member of Parliament Will Conservative backbenchers force
:02:06. > :02:09.a Government re-think And is Theresa May about to cap gas
:02:10. > :02:22.and electricity prices? Whose idea was that first of all?
:02:23. > :02:28.They are all questions for the Week Ahead to.
:02:29. > :02:33.Let's start with the story that is too much fun to miss, on Friday it
:02:34. > :02:36.was announced the former Chancellor would be the new editor of London's
:02:37. > :02:44.Evening Standard newspaper, a position he will take up in mid-May
:02:45. > :02:48.on a salary of ?200,000 for four days a week.
:02:49. > :02:51.But Mr Osborne has said he will not be stepping down as MP
:02:52. > :02:54.for Tatton in Cheshire, a job he's held since 2001,
:02:55. > :02:57.Alongside these duties, he's also chairman of
:02:58. > :03:03.While being committed to one day a week at Black Rock,
:03:04. > :03:05.an American asset management firm - a part-time role that earns him
:03:06. > :03:11.Then he's polishing his academic credentials, as a fellow
:03:12. > :03:13.at the McCain Institute, an American thinktank,
:03:14. > :03:20.And finally as a member of the Washington Speaker's Bureau,
:03:21. > :03:26.he also earns his keep as an after-dinner speaker, banking
:03:27. > :03:31.around ?750,000 since last summer.
:03:32. > :03:41.So there you go. Nice little earners if you can get them. The problem,
:03:42. > :03:44.though, is he has put second jobs on the agenda and lots of his fellow
:03:45. > :03:49.MPs are not happy because they have got second jobs but not making that
:03:50. > :03:54.kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs on both sides actually are unhappy
:03:55. > :03:59.about it exactly for those reasons. I find it a very interesting
:04:00. > :04:03.appointment. We have got these people on the centre and centre
:04:04. > :04:07.right of politics who have been used to power since 1997, they have been
:04:08. > :04:12.on the airwaves today, Tony Blair, Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they
:04:13. > :04:17.are all seeking other platforms now because power has moved elsewhere.
:04:18. > :04:19.So Tony Blair is setting up this new foundation, Nick Clegg refused to
:04:20. > :04:26.condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair praised the appointment. They are
:04:27. > :04:30.all searching for new platforms. They might have overestimated the
:04:31. > :04:36.degree to which this will be a huge influential platform. The standard
:04:37. > :04:40.was very pro-Tory at the 2015 election but London voted Labour, it
:04:41. > :04:44.was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they elected Sadiq Khan. It might be
:04:45. > :04:49.overestimating the degree to which this is a hugely influential paper.
:04:50. > :04:54.But I can see why it attracts him as a platform when all these platforms
:04:55. > :05:00.have disappeared, eg power and government. All of these people who
:05:01. > :05:04.used to be in power are quietly getting together again, Mr Blair on
:05:05. > :05:08.television this morning, George Osborne not only filling his bank
:05:09. > :05:13.account but now in charge of London's most important newspaper,
:05:14. > :05:18.Nick Clegg out today not saying Brexit was a done deal, waiting to
:05:19. > :05:23.see what happens, even John Major was wheeled out again today in the
:05:24. > :05:26.Mail on Sunday. They are all playing for position. I half expect David
:05:27. > :05:34.Cameron to turn up as features editor on The Evening Standard.
:05:35. > :05:38.Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg, did he not? I do not think this is
:05:39. > :05:42.sustainable for George Osborne, I worked at The Evening Standard and I
:05:43. > :05:46.was there for three years, I know what the hours are like for a humble
:05:47. > :05:50.journalist, never mind the editor. If he thinks he can get at 4am
:05:51. > :05:54.everyday to be in the offices at 5am to oversee the splash, manage
:05:55. > :05:59.everything in the way and edited should he is in cloud cuckoo land.
:06:00. > :06:03.What this says to people is there is a kind of feel of soft corruption
:06:04. > :06:07.about public life here, where you see what you can get away with. He
:06:08. > :06:10.thinks he can brazen this out and maybe he can but what kind of
:06:11. > :06:15.message does that send to people about how seriously people take the
:06:16. > :06:21.role of being an MP? He must have known. He applied for the job. The
:06:22. > :06:26.Russian owner didn't approach him, he approached Lebedev, the
:06:27. > :06:29.proprietor, for it. He must have calculated there would be some
:06:30. > :06:33.kickback. I wonder if he realised there would be quite the kickback
:06:34. > :06:37.there has been. I think that's probably right. This hasn't finished
:06:38. > :06:42.yet, by the way, this will go on and on. How on earth does George Osborne
:06:43. > :06:47.cover the budget in the autumn? Big budget, lots of physical changes and
:06:48. > :06:51.tax rises to deal with the messages out of this week. You can see
:06:52. > :06:59.already, Theresa May budget crashes. It could be worse. She's useless!
:07:00. > :07:04.Or, worse than that, me, brilliant budget, terrible newspaper, I've
:07:05. > :07:07.never buying it again. He has hoisted his own petard. He has not
:07:08. > :07:13.bought it properly through. It's a something interesting about his own
:07:14. > :07:17.future calculations, if he wants to stay on as an MP in 2020 and be
:07:18. > :07:21.Prime Minister as he has or was wanted to be he has got to find a
:07:22. > :07:25.new seat. How do you go into an association and say I should be an
:07:26. > :07:29.MP, I can do it for at least four hours Purdy after editing The
:07:30. > :07:36.Evening Standard, making a big speech and telling Black Rock how to
:07:37. > :07:40.make a big profit. The feature pages have to be approved for the next day
:07:41. > :07:44.and feature pages are aware the editor gets to make their mark. The
:07:45. > :07:49.news is the news. The feature is what concerns you, what he is in
:07:50. > :07:55.your bonnet. That defines the newspaper, doesn't it? It is not
:07:56. > :08:02.over yet. Too much 101 on newspapers. And Haatheq at.
:08:03. > :08:09.School funding, the consultation period ends, it has been a tricky
:08:10. > :08:14.one for the government, some areas losing. I guess we are seeing this
:08:15. > :08:20.through the prism of the National Insurance contributions now, it is a
:08:21. > :08:25.small majority, if Tory MPs are unhappy she may not get her way.
:08:26. > :08:29.Talking to backbench MPs who are unhappy the feeling is it is not
:08:30. > :08:34.going to go ahead in the proposed form that the consultation has been
:08:35. > :08:39.on. No 10 will definitely have to move on this. It is unclear whether
:08:40. > :08:42.they will scrap it completely, or will they bring in something
:08:43. > :08:47.possibly like a base level, floor level pupil funding below which you
:08:48. > :08:51.can't go? You would then still need to find some extra money. So there
:08:52. > :08:55.are no easy solutions on this but what is clear it is not going to go
:08:56. > :08:59.ahead in its current form. Parents have been getting letters across the
:09:00. > :09:04.country in England about what this will mean for teachers and so on in
:09:05. > :09:09.certain schools. It's not just a matter of the education Department,
:09:10. > :09:13.the schools, or the teachers and Tory backbenchers. Parents are being
:09:14. > :09:17.mobilised on this. The point of the new funding formula is to allocate
:09:18. > :09:21.more money to the more disadvantaged. That means schools in
:09:22. > :09:25.the more prosperous suburbs are going to lose money. Budget cuts on
:09:26. > :09:29.schools which are already struggling. It comes down again to
:09:30. > :09:34.be huge problem, the ever smaller fiscal pool, ever greater demands,
:09:35. > :09:38.NHS, social care, education as well, adding to Theresa May and Phillip
:09:39. > :09:42.Hammond's enormous problems. Here is an interesting issue, Steve. There
:09:43. > :09:48.was a labour Leader of the Opposition that once suggested
:09:49. > :09:52.perhaps given these huge energy companies which seemed to be good at
:09:53. > :09:55.passing on energy rises but not so good at cutting energy prices when
:09:56. > :09:59.it falls, that perhaps we should put a cap on them until at least we
:10:00. > :10:05.study how the market goes. This was obviously ludicrous Marxism and
:10:06. > :10:10.quite rightly knocked down by the Conservatives, except that Mrs May
:10:11. > :10:13.is now talking about putting a cap on energy prices. Yes, I think if it
:10:14. > :10:18.wasn't for Brexit we would focus much more on Theresa May's Ed
:10:19. > :10:22.Miliband streak. Whether this translates into policies, let us
:10:23. > :10:26.see. That bit we don't know. That bit we don't know but in terms of
:10:27. > :10:30.argument her speech to the Conservative conference on Friday
:10:31. > :10:35.was about the third or fourth time where she said as part of the
:10:36. > :10:38.speech, let's focus on the good that government can do, including in
:10:39. > :10:44.intervening in markets, exactly in the way that he used to argue. As
:10:45. > :10:47.you say, we await the policy consequences of that. She seems more
:10:48. > :10:52.cautious in terms of policy in fermentation. But in terms of the
:10:53. > :10:55.industrial strategy, in terms of implying intervention in certain
:10:56. > :11:00.markets, there is a kind of Milibandesque streak. And there
:11:01. > :11:06.comes a time when she has to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.
:11:07. > :11:10.They talk a lot about the just about managing, just about managing face
:11:11. > :11:14.rising food bills because of the lower pound and face rising fuel
:11:15. > :11:21.bills because of the rise in oil and in other commodities. One of the two
:11:22. > :11:24.things you could do to help the just about managing is to cut their food
:11:25. > :11:28.bills and the second would be to cut their fuel bills. At some stage she
:11:29. > :11:31.has to do something for them. We don't know what is going to happen
:11:32. > :11:35.to food bills under Brexit, that could become a really serious issue.
:11:36. > :11:39.They could abolish tariffs. There has been a lot of talking the talk
:11:40. > :11:43.and big announcements put out and not following through so I agree
:11:44. > :11:56.with you on that but lots of Tory MPs will have a big problem on
:11:57. > :11:59.this and the principle of continually talking about
:12:00. > :12:02.interfering in markets, whether it's on executive pay, whether it is on
:12:03. > :12:05.energy, at a time when Britain needs to send out this message to the
:12:06. > :12:07.world in their view, in the view of Brexit supporting MPs, that we are
:12:08. > :12:10.open for business and the government is not about poking around and doing
:12:11. > :12:13.this kind of thing. Of course, you could argue there is not a problem
:12:14. > :12:15.in the market for energy, it is a malfunctioning market that doesn't
:12:16. > :12:18.operate like a free market should, so that provides even Adam Smith,
:12:19. > :12:22.the inventor of market economics would have said on that basis you
:12:23. > :12:26.should intervene. I was in Cardiff to listen to Theresa May's latest
:12:27. > :12:31.explanation for doing this. By the way, we've been waiting nine months,
:12:32. > :12:35.this was one of her big ideas. You are right, let's see a bit of the
:12:36. > :12:38.meat, please. My newspaper has been calling for some pretty hefty
:12:39. > :12:44.government action on this for quite some time. For the just about
:12:45. > :12:48.managings? Yes and specifically to sort out an energy market dominated
:12:49. > :12:51.by the big six, which is manifestly ripping people off left, right and
:12:52. > :12:56.centre. Theresa May's argument in Cardiff on Friday morning which, by
:12:57. > :13:01.the way, went down like a proverbial windbreak at the proverbial funeral
:13:02. > :13:04.because Tories... You know what I mean Andrew, the big hand coming
:13:05. > :13:08.into from the state telling businesses what to do. They went
:13:09. > :13:12.very quiet indeed. They were having saving the union and Nato but there
:13:13. > :13:16.was no clapping for that. The point being, this is what she needs to do
:13:17. > :13:22.to prove her assault, to prove those first words on the steps of Downing
:13:23. > :13:24.Street. We await to see the actions taken.
:13:25. > :13:31.On that unusual agreement we will leave it there. The Daily Politics
:13:32. > :13:34.will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at noon and everyday during the week.
:13:35. > :13:37.And I'll be here on BBC One next Sunday at 11am.
:13:38. > :13:39.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.