:00:43. > :00:47.It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:48. > :00:49.The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,
:00:50. > :00:51.but do the security services have the resources and
:00:52. > :00:55.We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.
:00:56. > :00:58.As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of
:00:59. > :01:04.Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power
:01:05. > :01:08.Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job
:01:09. > :01:18.I will be joined by two West Country and the party's
:01:19. > :01:20.I will be joined by two West Country MPs who were in Westminster during
:01:21. > :01:21.the And with me - as always -
:01:22. > :01:33.the best and the brightest political panel in the business -
:01:34. > :01:35.Toby Young, Polly Toynbee and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting
:01:36. > :01:41.throughout the programme. First, it was the most
:01:42. > :01:43.deadly terrorist attack The attacker was shot dead trying
:01:44. > :01:47.to storm Parliament, but not before he'd murdered four
:01:48. > :01:49.people and injured 50 - one of those is still in a critical
:01:50. > :01:53.condition in hospital. His target was the very
:01:54. > :01:55.heart of our democracy, the Palace of Westminster,
:01:56. > :01:58.and he came within metres of the Prime Minister
:01:59. > :02:01.and senior Cabinet ministers. Without the quick actions
:02:02. > :02:05.of the Defence Secretary's close protection detail,
:02:06. > :02:07.fortuitously in the vicinity at the time, the outcome
:02:08. > :02:19.could have been even worse. Janan Ganesh it is four days now,
:02:20. > :02:25.getting on. What thoughts should we be having this weekend? First of
:02:26. > :02:29.all, Theresa May's Parliamentary response was exemplary. In many
:02:30. > :02:32.ways, the moment she arrived as prime minister and her six years as
:02:33. > :02:37.Home Secretary showed a positive way. No other serving politician is
:02:38. > :02:41.as steeped in counterterror and national security experience as she
:02:42. > :02:44.is and I think it showed. As to whether politics is going now, it
:02:45. > :02:50.looks like the Government will put more pressure on companies like
:02:51. > :02:54.Google and Facebook to monitor sensor radical content that flows
:02:55. > :02:58.through their channels, and I wonder whether beyond that the Government,
:02:59. > :03:03.not just our Government but around the world, will start to open this
:03:04. > :03:08.question of, during a terror attack, as it is unfolding, should there be
:03:09. > :03:12.restrictions on what can appear on social media? I was on Twitter at
:03:13. > :03:15.the time last week, during the attack, and people were posting
:03:16. > :03:20.things which may have been useful to the perpetrators, not on that
:03:21. > :03:24.occasion but future occasions. Should there be restrictions on what
:03:25. > :03:30.and how much people can post while an attack is unfolding? I think we
:03:31. > :03:33.have learned that this is like the weather, it is going to happen, it
:03:34. > :03:38.is going to happen all over the world and in every country and we
:03:39. > :03:43.deal with it well, we deal with it stoically, perhaps we are more used
:03:44. > :03:47.to it than some. We had the IRA for years, we know how to make personal
:03:48. > :03:52.risk assessments, how to know the chances of being in the wrong place
:03:53. > :03:58.at the wrong time are infinitesimal, so people in London didn't say, I'm
:03:59. > :04:01.not going to go to the centre of London today, everything carried on
:04:02. > :04:06.just the same. Because we know that the odds of it, being unlucky, are
:04:07. > :04:14.very small. Life is dangerous, this is another very small risk and it is
:04:15. > :04:17.the danger of being alive. I think from an Isis Islamist propaganda
:04:18. > :04:21.point of view, it showed just what a poor target London and the House of
:04:22. > :04:26.Commons is, and it is hard to imagine the emergency services and
:04:27. > :04:31.local people, international visitors, reacting much better than
:04:32. > :04:36.they did. And the fact that our Muslim mayor was able to make an
:04:37. > :04:41.appearance so quickly afterwards shows, I think, that we are not city
:04:42. > :04:44.riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. It couldn't really have been a
:04:45. > :04:46.better advertisement for the values that is attacking.
:04:47. > :04:49.OK, thank you for that. So, four days after the attack,
:04:50. > :04:51.what more do we know The police have made 11 arrests,
:04:52. > :04:55.but only one remains Here's Adam with the latest
:04:56. > :05:00.on the investigation. According to a police timeline,
:05:01. > :05:05.that's how long it took Khalid Masood to drive
:05:06. > :05:07.through a crowd on Westminster to crash his car into
:05:08. > :05:14.Parliament's perimeter... to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer,
:05:15. > :05:18.before being shot by a bodyguard The public are leaving tributes
:05:19. > :05:29.to the dead at Westminster. The family of PC Palmer released
:05:30. > :05:34.a statement saying: "We would like to express our
:05:35. > :05:36.gratitude to the people who were with Keith in his last
:05:37. > :05:39.moments and who were There was nothing more
:05:40. > :05:42.you could have done, you did your best and we are just
:05:43. > :05:45.grateful he was not alone." Investigators say Masood's motive
:05:46. > :05:48.may have gone to the grave with him. Officers think he acted alone,
:05:49. > :05:51.despite reports he spent a WhatsApp The Home Secretary now has
:05:52. > :05:58.such encrypted messaging There should be no place
:05:59. > :06:04.for terrorists to hide. We need to make sure that
:06:05. > :06:06.organisations like WhatsApp, and there are plenty of others
:06:07. > :06:09.like that, don't provide a secret place for terrorists
:06:10. > :06:12.to communicate with each other. It used to be that people
:06:13. > :06:16.would steam open envelopes or just listen in on phones when they wanted
:06:17. > :06:25.to find out what people were doing, legally, through warrantry,
:06:26. > :06:27.but in this situation we need to make sure
:06:28. > :06:29.that our intelligence services have the ability to get
:06:30. > :06:31.into situations like encrypted She will ask the tech industry
:06:32. > :06:35.to suggest solutions at a meeting this week,
:06:36. > :06:37.although she didn't rule out But for those caught up
:06:38. > :06:41.in the attack, perhaps it will be ..not the policy implications that
:06:42. > :06:49.will echo the loudest. We're joined now from the Hague
:06:50. > :06:51.by the Director of Europol, the European Police Agency,
:06:52. > :07:03.Rob Wainwright. What role has Europol played in the
:07:04. > :07:06.aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I can tell you we are actively
:07:07. > :07:10.supporting the investigation, because it is a live case I cannot
:07:11. > :07:14.of course go into the details, but to give you some context, Andrew,
:07:15. > :07:18.this is one of about 80 counterterrorist cases we have been
:07:19. > :07:22.supporting across Europe this year, using a platform to shed thousands
:07:23. > :07:26.of intelligence messages between the very large counterterrorist
:07:27. > :07:30.community in Europe, and also tracking flows of terrorist finance,
:07:31. > :07:34.illegal firearms, and monitoring this terrible propaganda online as
:07:35. > :07:41.well. All of that is being made available now to the Metropolitan
:07:42. > :07:44.Police in London for this case. Do we know if there is any European
:07:45. > :07:49.link to those who may have inspired or directed Khalid Massoud? That is
:07:50. > :07:52.an active part of the inquiry being led by Metropolitan Police and it is
:07:53. > :07:58.not for me to comment or speculate on that. There are links of course
:07:59. > :08:02.in terms of the profile of the attacker and the way in which he
:08:03. > :08:06.launched these terrible events in Westminster, and those that we've
:08:07. > :08:11.seen, for example, in the Berlin Christmas market last year and the
:08:12. > :08:15.attack in Nice in the summer of last year, clear similarities between the
:08:16. > :08:19.fact that the attackers involved have criminal background, somewhat
:08:20. > :08:26.dislocated from society, each of them using a hired or stolen vehicle
:08:27. > :08:30.to deliberately aim at pedestrians in a crowded place and using a
:08:31. > :08:34.secondary weapon, whether it is a gun or a knife. So we are seeing a
:08:35. > :08:37.trend, I think, of the kind of attacks across Europe in the last
:08:38. > :08:41.couple of years and some of that at least was played out unfortunately
:08:42. > :08:45.in Westminster this week as well. Mass and was known to the emergency
:08:46. > :08:49.services, so were many of those involved in the Brussels, Paris and
:08:50. > :08:54.Berlin attacks, so something is going wrong here, we are not
:08:55. > :08:59.completely across this, are we? Actually most attacks are being
:09:00. > :09:04.stopped. This was I think at least the 14th terrorist plot or attempted
:09:05. > :09:09.attack in Britain since 2013 and the only one that has got through, and
:09:10. > :09:14.that fits a picture of what we see in France last year, 17 attempted
:09:15. > :09:18.attacks that were stopped, for example. Unfortunately some of them
:09:19. > :09:22.get through. But people on the security services' Radar getting
:09:23. > :09:27.through, in Westminster, Brussels, Paris and Berlin. There is clearly
:09:28. > :09:34.something we are not doing that could stop that. Again, if you look
:09:35. > :09:38.at what happened in Berlin and at least the first indications from
:09:39. > :09:42.what police are saying in London, these are people that haven't really
:09:43. > :09:47.appeared on Baha'i target list of the authorities, they are on the
:09:48. > :09:51.edge at best of radicalised community -- on the high target
:09:52. > :09:54.list. When you are dealing with a dispersed community of thousands of
:09:55. > :09:59.radicalised, Senate radicalised individuals, it is very difficult to
:10:00. > :10:03.monitor them 24/7, very difficult when these people, almost out of the
:10:04. > :10:08.blue and carry out the attacks that they did. I think you have to find a
:10:09. > :10:12.sense of perspective here around the work and the pressures of the work
:10:13. > :10:16.and the difficult target choices that police and security authorities
:10:17. > :10:20.have to make around Europe. The Home Secretary here in London said this
:10:21. > :10:24.morning it is time to tackle apps like WhatsApp, which we believe
:10:25. > :10:28.Massoud was using, because they encrypt from end to end and it is
:10:29. > :10:32.difficult for the security services to know what is happening there.
:10:33. > :10:38.What do you say, are you up for that? Across the hundreds of cases
:10:39. > :10:42.we have supported in recent years there is no doubt that encryption,
:10:43. > :10:46.encrypted communications are becoming more and more prominent in
:10:47. > :10:50.the way terrorists communicate, more and more of a problem, therefore, a
:10:51. > :10:53.real challenge for investigators, and that the heart of this is a
:10:54. > :10:57.stark inconsistency between the ability of the police to lawfully
:10:58. > :11:02.intercept telephone calls, but not when those messages are exchanged
:11:03. > :11:07.via a social media messaging board, for example, and that is an
:11:08. > :11:11.inconsistency in society and we have to find a solution through
:11:12. > :11:14.appropriate legislation perhaps of these technologies and law
:11:15. > :11:21.enforcement agencies working in a more constructive way. So you back
:11:22. > :11:24.that? I agree that there is certainly a problem, absolutely. We
:11:25. > :11:34.know there was a problem, I'm trying to find out if you agree with the
:11:35. > :11:38.Home Secretary's solution? I agree certainly with her calls for changes
:11:39. > :11:41.to be made. What the legislative solution for that is of course for
:11:42. > :11:44.her and other lawmakers to decide but from my point of view, yes, I
:11:45. > :11:49.would agree something has to be done to make sure we can apply more
:11:50. > :11:54.consistent interception of communication in all parts of the
:11:55. > :11:56.way in which terrorists invade our lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol,
:11:57. > :11:58.thank you very much. Here with me in the studio now
:11:59. > :12:06.is the Leader of the House What did last week's attack tell us
:12:07. > :12:10.about the security of the Palace of Westminster? It told us that we are
:12:11. > :12:18.looked after by some very courageous, very professional police
:12:19. > :12:23.officers. There is clearly going to be a lessons learned with you, as
:12:24. > :12:27.you would expect after any incident of this kind. That will look very
:12:28. > :12:30.carefully at what worked well but also whether there are changes that
:12:31. > :12:36.need to be made, that is already under way. And that is being run by
:12:37. > :12:46.professionals, by the police and security director at Parliament...
:12:47. > :12:50.Palace authorities, we will get reports from the professionals,
:12:51. > :12:54.particularly our own Parliamentary security director, and just as
:12:55. > :12:57.security matters in parliament are kept under constant review, if there
:12:58. > :13:02.are changes that need to be made as a result, then they will need to be
:13:03. > :13:05.made. Let's look at some of the issues it has thrown up, as we get
:13:06. > :13:10.some distance from these appalling events when our first reaction was
:13:11. > :13:14.always the people who lose their lives and suffer, and then we start
:13:15. > :13:19.to become a bit more analytical. Is it true that the authorities removed
:13:20. > :13:22.armed guards from Cowbridge gate, where the attacker made his entry,
:13:23. > :13:30.because they looked to threatening for tourists? -- carriage gate. No,
:13:31. > :13:33.the idea that a protest from MPs led to operational changes simply not
:13:34. > :13:40.the case. What happened in the last couple of years is that the security
:13:41. > :13:43.arrangements in new Palace Yard have actually been strengthened, but I
:13:44. > :13:48.don't think your view was would expect me to go into a detailed
:13:49. > :13:53.commentary upon operational security matters. Why were the armed guards
:13:54. > :13:58.removed? There are armed guards at all times in the Palace of
:13:59. > :14:02.Westminster, it is a matter for the security authorities and in
:14:03. > :14:09.particular for the police and direct command of those officers to decide
:14:10. > :14:13.how they are best deployed. Is it because, as some from Scotland Yard
:14:14. > :14:18.sources have reported to the papers this morning, was it done because of
:14:19. > :14:22.staffing shortages? I'm in no position to comment on the details
:14:23. > :14:27.of the operation but my understanding is that the number of
:14:28. > :14:31.people available is what the police and the security authorities working
:14:32. > :14:36.together have decided to deploy and that they think was commensurate
:14:37. > :14:42.with the threat that we faced. Is it not of concern that as the incident
:14:43. > :14:46.unfolded the gates were left unguarded by armed and unarmed, they
:14:47. > :14:50.were just unguarded, so much so that, as it was going on, a career
:14:51. > :14:59.with a parcel on a moped at was able to drive through? -- up career. I
:15:00. > :15:02.think we will need to examine that case as part of looking into any
:15:03. > :15:06.lessons learned, but what I don't yet know, because the police are
:15:07. > :15:11.still interviewing everybody involved, witnesses and police
:15:12. > :15:17.officers involved, was exactly who was standing where in the vicinity
:15:18. > :15:21.of the murder at a particular time. We have seen pictures, the gates
:15:22. > :15:25.were unguarded as people were concentrating on what was happening
:15:26. > :15:31.to the police man and to the attacker, but the delivery man was
:15:32. > :15:34.able to come through the gates with a parcel?! You have seen a
:15:35. > :15:39.particular camera angle, I think it is important before we rush to
:15:40. > :15:45.judgment, and we shouldn't be pointing fingers, we need... We are
:15:46. > :15:48.trying to get to the bottom of it. To get to the bottom of it means we
:15:49. > :15:52.have to look at what all the witnesses and all the police
:15:53. > :15:56.officers involved say about what happened, and then there needs to be
:15:57. > :15:58.a decision taken about what if any changes need to be made in light of
:15:59. > :16:07.that. We know the attacker was stopped in
:16:08. > :16:13.his tracks by the Defence Secretary's bodyguard, where was the
:16:14. > :16:18.armed roving unit that had replaced the armed guard at the gate? I
:16:19. > :16:22.cannot comment on operation details but my understanding is there were
:16:23. > :16:27.other armed officers who would have been able to prevent the attacker
:16:28. > :16:34.from getting to the chamber, as has been alleged it would be possible
:16:35. > :16:38.for him to do. Were you aware that a so-called table top simulation,
:16:39. > :16:41.carried out by Scotland Yard and the Parliamentary authorities, ended
:16:42. > :16:51.with four terrorists in this simulation able to storm parliament
:16:52. > :16:57.and killed dozens of MPs? No, that is the first time that has been
:16:58. > :17:03.mentioned to me. You are the leader of the house. These matters are
:17:04. > :17:10.dealt with by security professionals who are involved, they are advised
:17:11. > :17:13.by a security committee, chaired by the Deputy Speaker, but we do not
:17:14. > :17:20.debate operational details in public. I'm not asking for a debate,
:17:21. > :17:24.I raise this because it's been reported because it's quite clear
:17:25. > :17:28.that after this simulation, it raised serious questions about the
:17:29. > :17:34.security of the palace. Actions should have followed. What I've said
:17:35. > :17:41.to you is that these matters are kept under constant review and that
:17:42. > :17:47.there are always changes made both in the deployment of individual
:17:48. > :17:51.officers and security guards of the palace staff and other plans to
:17:52. > :17:56.strengthen the hard security of the perimeter. If you look back at
:17:57. > :18:02.Hansard December last year, they was a plan already been brought forward
:18:03. > :18:10.to strengthen the security at carriage Gates, looking at questions
:18:11. > :18:18.of access. Will there be armed guards now? You need to look not
:18:19. > :18:23.just at armed guards, you need to look at the entirety of the security
:18:24. > :18:27.engagements including fencing. There's lots about the security we
:18:28. > :18:31.don't need to know and shouldn't know, but whether or not there are
:18:32. > :18:37.armed guards is something we will find out quite soon and I'm asking
:18:38. > :18:41.you if you think there should be. If you think the judgment is by our
:18:42. > :18:46.security experts that there need to be more armed guards in certain
:18:47. > :18:50.places, then they will be deployed accordingly, but I think before we
:18:51. > :18:55.rush to make conclusions about lessons to be learned from
:18:56. > :18:59.Wednesday's appalling attack, it is important the police are allowed to
:19:00. > :19:04.get on with completing the interview of witnesses and their own officers,
:19:05. > :19:08.and then that there is considered view taken about what changes might
:19:09. > :19:14.need to be made and then they will be implemented. Let me come onto the
:19:15. > :19:18.triggering of Article 50 that begins our negotiations to exit the
:19:19. > :19:23.European Union. It will happen on Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told
:19:24. > :19:27.Germany's most popular newspaper that he wants to make an example of
:19:28. > :19:34.the UK to make everyone realise it's not worth leaving the EU. What do
:19:35. > :19:38.you make of that? I think all sorts of things are said in advance of
:19:39. > :19:45.negotiations beginning. Clearly the commission will want to ensure the
:19:46. > :19:49.EU 27 holds together. As the Prime Minister has said, that is a British
:19:50. > :19:56.national interest as well. She has been very clear... What do you make
:19:57. > :19:59.of President Juncker's remark? It doesn't surprise me ahead of
:20:00. > :20:07.negotiations but I think if rational mutual interest is to the fore that
:20:08. > :20:12.it's perfectly possible for an agreement to be negotiated between
:20:13. > :20:17.the UK and our 27 friends and allies that addresses all of the issues
:20:18. > :20:21.from trade to security, police cooperation, foreign policy
:20:22. > :20:25.co-operation, works for all countries. The EU wants to agree a
:20:26. > :20:32.substantial divorce bill before it will even discuss any future UK EU
:20:33. > :20:38.relations, what do you make of that? Article 50 says the terms of exit
:20:39. > :20:43.need to be negotiated in the context of the kind of future relationship
:20:44. > :20:47.that's going to exist between the departing country and the remaining
:20:48. > :20:52.member states. It seems it is simply not possible to separate those two.
:20:53. > :20:56.Clearly there will need to be a discussion about joint assets and
:20:57. > :21:00.join liabilities but I think if we all keep to the fore the fact we
:21:01. > :21:04.will continue to be neighbours, we will continue to be essential allies
:21:05. > :21:18.and trading partners, then it is possible to come to a
:21:19. > :21:22.deal that works for all size. The question is do you agree the divorce
:21:23. > :21:25.bill first and then look at the subsequent relations we will have or
:21:26. > :21:30.do you do them both in parallel? Article 50 itself says they have to
:21:31. > :21:35.run together. Do you think they have to be done together or sequentially?
:21:36. > :21:40.I think it is impossible to separate the two but we will get into
:21:41. > :21:44.negotiations very soon and then once David Davis is sitting down with
:21:45. > :21:49.Michel Barnier and others and the national governments become involved
:21:50. > :21:53.too, then I hope we can make steady progress. An early deal about each
:21:54. > :21:57.other's citizens would be a good piece of low hanging fruit. Is the
:21:58. > :22:06.Government willing to pay a substantial divorce bill? The Prime
:22:07. > :22:11.Minister has said we don't rule out some kind of continuing payments,
:22:12. > :22:16.for example there may be EU programmes in the future in which we
:22:17. > :22:25.want to continue to participate. 50 billion? We don't envisage long-term
:22:26. > :22:30.payments of vast sums of money. So 50 billion isn't even the Government
:22:31. > :22:34.ballpark? You are tempting me to get into the detail of negotiation, that
:22:35. > :22:38.is something that will be starting very soon and let's leave it to the
:22:39. > :22:46.negotiations. During the referendum there was no talk from the Leave
:22:47. > :22:50.side about any question of separation bill, now the talk is of
:22:51. > :23:02.50 billion and I'm trying to find out if the British government thinks
:23:03. > :23:07.that of amount is on your radar. The Government is addressing the
:23:08. > :23:10.situation in which we now are, which is that we have a democratic
:23:11. > :23:15.obligation to implement the decision of the people in the referendum last
:23:16. > :23:19.year, and that we need to do that in a way that maximises the
:23:20. > :23:24.opportunity, the future prosperity and security of everybody in the UK.
:23:25. > :23:28.Let me try one more thing on the Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper
:23:29. > :23:32.will be published I think on Thursday, is that right? We haven't
:23:33. > :23:39.announced an exact date but you will see the white Paper very soon. Let's
:23:40. > :23:42.say it is Thursday, it will enshrine thousands of EU laws into UK law, it
:23:43. > :23:48.will use what's called Henry VIII powers, who of course was a
:23:49. > :23:55.dictator. Is this an attempt to avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny?
:23:56. > :24:01.No, we are repealing the Communities Act 1972, then put existing EU legal
:24:02. > :24:07.obligations on the UK statutory footing, so business know where they
:24:08. > :24:15.stand. Then, because a lot of those EU regulations will for example
:24:16. > :24:20.refer to the commission or another regulator, you need to substitute a
:24:21. > :24:25.UK authority in place so we need to have a power under secondary
:24:26. > :24:34.legislation to tweak the European regulators so it is coherent. This
:24:35. > :24:40.is weather Henry VIII powers come in. It is secondary legislation and
:24:41. > :24:44.the scope, the definition of those powers and when they can be used in
:24:45. > :24:49.what circumstances is something the parliament will have to approve in
:24:50. > :24:53.voting through the bill itself. And if it is as innocuous as you say,
:24:54. > :24:58.will you accept the proposal of the Lords for an enhanced scrutiny
:24:59. > :25:04.process on the secondary legislation? Neither the relevant
:25:05. > :25:08.committee of the House of Lords, the constitution committee, nor anyone
:25:09. > :25:12.else has seen the text of the bill and I think when it comes out, I
:25:13. > :25:18.hope that those members of the House of Lords will find that reassuring,
:25:19. > :25:24.but as I say the definition of those powers are something the parliament
:25:25. > :25:26.itself will take the final decision. David Lidington, thank you for being
:25:27. > :25:27.with us. So, Ukip has lost its only MP -
:25:28. > :25:30.Douglas Carswell. He defected to Ukip
:25:31. > :25:32.from the Conservative Party almost three years ago,
:25:33. > :25:33.but yesterday announced that he was quitting
:25:34. > :25:35.to sit as an independent. His surprise defection came
:25:36. > :25:37.in August 2014 saying, "Only Ukip can shake up that cosy
:25:38. > :25:40.little clique called Westminster". But his bromance with Nigel Farage
:25:41. > :25:44.turned sour when Mr Carswell criticised the so-called "shock
:25:45. > :25:46.and awful" strategy as Then, during the EU referendum
:25:47. > :25:51.campaign last year, Nigel Farage was part of the unofficial Leave.EU
:25:52. > :25:54.campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell opted to support the official
:25:55. > :26:00.Vote Leave campaign. Just last month, former
:26:01. > :26:02.Ukip leader Nigel Farage accused Douglas Carswell
:26:03. > :26:04.of thwarting his chances of being awarded a knighthood,
:26:05. > :26:06.writing that, Announcing his resignation
:26:07. > :26:14.on his website yesterday, Mr Carswell said, "I desperately
:26:15. > :26:16.wanted us to leave the EU. Now we can be certain that
:26:17. > :26:19.that is going to happen, I have decided that I will be leaving
:26:20. > :26:22.Ukip." When Mr Carswell left
:26:23. > :26:24.the Conservative Party in 2014 he resigned as an MP,
:26:25. > :26:27.triggering a by-election. "I must seek permission
:26:28. > :26:30.from my boss," he said referring This time, though, Mr Carswell has
:26:31. > :26:39.said there will be no by-election. We're joined now from Salford
:26:40. > :26:50.by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. Welcome back to the programme. Are
:26:51. > :26:57.you happy to see the back of your only MP? Well, do you know, I'm
:26:58. > :27:03.always sad when people leave Ukip at a grass roots level or Parliamentary
:27:04. > :27:07.level, but I'm sad but I'm not surprised by this. There has been
:27:08. > :27:12.adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the past couple of years, his
:27:13. > :27:16.relationship with Nigel Farage certainly hasn't helped, and it is a
:27:17. > :27:20.hangover from the former regime which I inherited. I try to bring
:27:21. > :27:25.the party together, I thought I had done that for a few months but it
:27:26. > :27:29.seems now as if I was only papering over the cracks. Douglas has gone
:27:30. > :27:35.and I think we will move on and be a more unified party as a result. Did
:27:36. > :27:38.Douglas Carswell jump because he expected to be pushed out your
:27:39. > :27:42.national executive committee tomorrow? He came before the
:27:43. > :27:45.National executive committee to answer questions regarding issues
:27:46. > :27:50.that have come to the fore over the last couple of months. There was the
:27:51. > :27:56.knighthood issue, the issue surrounding the Thanet election and
:27:57. > :28:02.his comments in a book which came out regarding Brexit. So was he
:28:03. > :28:06.under suspicion? He was coming to answer these questions and they
:28:07. > :28:13.would have been difficult. So he did jump in your view? No, I'm not
:28:14. > :28:16.saying he would have been pushed out of the party but he would have faced
:28:17. > :28:25.difficult questions. What is clear is that a fissure had developed and
:28:26. > :28:30.I'm not surprised by him leaving the party. You have also lost Diane
:28:31. > :28:36.James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, you failed to win the Stoke by
:28:37. > :28:41.election, Mr Carswell is now a pundit on US television, Ukip now
:28:42. > :28:47.stands for the UK irrelevance party, doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday
:28:48. > :29:04.on 12%, membership continues to rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4
:29:05. > :29:09.million people voted for Ukip. Over the summer exciting things will be
:29:10. > :29:11.happening in the party, we will rewrite the constitution,
:29:12. > :29:16.restructure the party, it will have a new feel to it and we will be
:29:17. > :29:21.launching pretty much the post Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used
:29:22. > :29:26.to pay quite a lot of your bills, he said the current leadership, that
:29:27. > :29:30.would be you, couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding, another way
:29:31. > :29:36.of saying you are relevant, isn't it? I don't think that's fair. I've
:29:37. > :29:40.only been in the job since November the 28th, we have taken steps to
:29:41. > :29:44.restructure the party already, the party is on a sound financial
:29:45. > :29:49.footing, we won't have a problem money wise going forward. It is a
:29:50. > :29:54.party which can really unified, look forward to the post Brexit Iraq,
:29:55. > :29:58.tomorrow we are launching our Brexit test for the Prime Minister. If it
:29:59. > :30:05.wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have been a referendum and we wouldn't
:30:06. > :30:10.have Brexit. Every time you say you will unified, someone else leaves.
:30:11. > :30:14.Is Arron Banks still a member? No, not at this moment in time. He has
:30:15. > :30:19.been a generous donor in the past, he's done a great job of ensuring we
:30:20. > :30:24.get Brexit and I'm thankful for that but he isn't a member. He has just
:30:25. > :30:35.submitted an invoice of ?2000 for the use of call centres, will you
:30:36. > :30:39.pay that? No. That should be interesting to watch.
:30:40. > :30:43.In the aftermath of the Westminster attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News
:30:44. > :30:48.that it vindicates Donald Trump's extreme vetting of migrants. Since
:30:49. > :30:53.the attacker was born in Kent, like Nigel Farage, can you explain the
:30:54. > :30:57.relevance of the remark? I personally haven't supported Donald
:30:58. > :31:02.Trump's position on this, but what I will say, this is what Nigel has
:31:03. > :31:06.said as well, we have a problem within the Muslim community, it is a
:31:07. > :31:12.small number of people who hate the way we live... Can you explain the
:31:13. > :31:26.relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr Farage also made the point
:31:27. > :31:30.about multiculturalism being the problem as well and he is correct on
:31:31. > :31:32.that because we cannot have separate communities living separate lives
:31:33. > :31:34.and never integrating. How would extreme vetting of migrants help you
:31:35. > :31:37.track down a man who was born in Kent? In this case it wouldn't.
:31:38. > :31:40.Maybe in other cases it would. But, as I say, I'm not a supporter of
:31:41. > :31:44.Donald Trump's position on extreme vetting, never have been, so I'm the
:31:45. > :31:48.wrong person to ask the question too, Andrew. That has probably
:31:49. > :31:53.become clear in my efforts to get you to answer it. Let me as too,
:31:54. > :31:56.should there be a by-election in Clacton now? Douglas has called
:31:57. > :32:00.by-elections in the past when he has left a political party, I know
:32:01. > :32:06.certain people in Ukip are keen to go down this line, Douglas is always
:32:07. > :32:08.keen on recall and if 20% of people in his constituency want a
:32:09. > :32:15.by-election then maybe we should have won. Ukip will be opening
:32:16. > :32:20.nominations for Clacton very soon. Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have
:32:21. > :32:29.Douglas Carswell here in the studio. Why not call a by-election? I'm not
:32:30. > :32:32.switching parties. You are, you are becoming independent. There is a
:32:33. > :32:37.difference, I've not submitted myself to the whip up a new party,
:32:38. > :32:40.if I was, I would be obliged to trigger a by-election. If every time
:32:41. > :32:45.an MP in the House of Commons resigned the whip or lost the whip,
:32:46. > :32:49.far from actually strengthening the democracy against the party bosses,
:32:50. > :32:53.that would give those who ran parties and enormous power, so I'm
:32:54. > :32:58.being absolutely consistent here, I'm not joining a party. It is a
:32:59. > :33:04.change of status and Nigel Farage has just said he will write to every
:33:05. > :33:10.constituent in Clacton and he wants to try and get 20% of constituents
:33:11. > :33:15.to older by-election. We are going to testing, he says, write to every
:33:16. > :33:20.house in Clacton, find out if his constituents want a by-election, if
:33:21. > :33:23.20% do we will find out if Mr Carswell is honourable. I'm sure
:33:24. > :33:29.they will be delighted to hear from Nigel. There have been several
:33:30. > :33:32.by-elections when Nigel has had the opportunity to contact the
:33:33. > :33:39.electorate we did -- which did not always go to plan. If you got 20%,
:33:40. > :33:44.would you? Yesterday I sent an e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I
:33:45. > :33:48.have had a lot of responses back, overwhelmingly supported. Recently
:33:49. > :33:55.you said you were 100% Ukip, now you are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa
:33:56. > :34:00.May triggering article 50, we won, Andrew. You knew a few months ago
:34:01. > :34:04.she was going to do that. On June the 24th I had serious thought about
:34:05. > :34:08.making the move but I wanted to be absolutely certain that Article 50
:34:09. > :34:13.would be triggered and I think it is right. This is why ultimately Ukip
:34:14. > :34:15.exists, to get us out of the European Union. We should be
:34:16. > :34:21.cheerful instead of attacking one another, this is our moment, we made
:34:22. > :34:25.it happen. Did you try to sideline the former Ukip leader during the
:34:26. > :34:29.referendum campaign? Not at all, I have been open about this, the idea
:34:30. > :34:35.I have been involved in subterfuge. You try to sideline him openly
:34:36. > :34:40.rather than by subterfuge? I made the point we needed to be open,
:34:41. > :34:43.broad and progressive to win. I made it clear in my acceptance speech in
:34:44. > :34:46.Clacton and when I said that Vote Leave should get designation that
:34:47. > :34:50.the only way Euroscepticism would win was by being more than just
:34:51. > :34:58.angry natives. What do you make of that? I am over the moon that we
:34:59. > :35:04.have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas I rarely have that much confidence
:35:05. > :35:07.in Theresa May because history proves that she is good at talking
:35:08. > :35:11.the talk but in walking the walk often fails, and I'm disappointed
:35:12. > :35:15.because I wanted Douglas to be part of the post Brexit Ukip where we
:35:16. > :35:20.move forward with a raft of domestic policies and go on to take seat at
:35:21. > :35:24.Westminster. Do you think you try to sideline Mr Farage during the
:35:25. > :35:29.referendum campaign? Vote Leave certainly didn't want Nigel Farage
:35:30. > :35:36.front of house, we know that. They freely admit that, they admitted it
:35:37. > :35:40.on media over the past year. Nigel still was front of house because he
:35:41. > :35:44.is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for Nigel, as I said earlier, we
:35:45. > :35:49.wouldn't have at the referendum and we wouldn't have achieved Brexit
:35:50. > :35:53.because Nigel Farage appeals, like Ukip to a certain section of the
:35:54. > :35:57.population. If our primary motive is to get us out of the European Union,
:35:58. > :36:01.why are we having this row, why can't we just celebrate what is
:36:02. > :36:04.happening on Wednesday? We can, but you are far more confident that
:36:05. > :36:09.Theresa May will deliver on this than I am. Ukip may have been a
:36:10. > :36:13.single issue pressure group ten years ago, it wasn't a single issue
:36:14. > :36:17.pressure group that you joined in 2014, it wasn't a single issue
:36:18. > :36:21.pressure group that you stood for in 2015 at the general election, and
:36:22. > :36:25.I'm disappointed that you have left us when we are moving onto an
:36:26. > :36:30.exciting era. What specifically gives you a lack of confidence in
:36:31. > :36:34.Mrs May's ability deliver? Her record as Home Secretary, she said
:36:35. > :36:39.she would deal with radical Islam, nothing happened, she said she would
:36:40. > :36:42.get immigration down to the tens of thousands, last year in her last
:36:43. > :36:46.year as Home Secretary as city the size of Newcastle came to this
:36:47. > :36:50.country, that is not tens of thousands. I think we need to take
:36:51. > :36:54.yes for an answer eventually. The problem with some Eurosceptics is
:36:55. > :36:59.they never accept they have won the argument. We have one, Theresa May
:37:00. > :37:03.is going to do what we have wanted her to do, let's be happy, let's
:37:04. > :37:08.celebrate that. But let's wait until she starts bartering things away,
:37:09. > :37:10.until she betrays our fishermen, just as other Conservative prime
:37:11. > :37:15.ministers have done in the past. Let's wait until we end up still
:37:16. > :37:18.paying some sort of membership fee into the European Union or a large
:37:19. > :37:22.divorce bill. That is not what people voted for on June the 23rd
:37:23. > :37:31.and if you want to align yourself with that, you are clearly not a
:37:32. > :37:34.Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip to have relevance, it has to go
:37:35. > :37:40.wrong? I'm confident politics will come back to our terms but -- our
:37:41. > :37:44.turf but there will be a post Brexit Ukip that will stand for veterans,
:37:45. > :37:49.book slashing the foreign aid bill and becoming the party of law and
:37:50. > :37:53.order. Finally, to you, Douglas Carswell, you say you have
:37:54. > :37:57.confidence in Mrs May to deliver in the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't.
:37:58. > :38:03.You backed her, you were Conservative, you believe that
:38:04. > :38:08.Brexit will be delivered under a Conservative Government. Why would
:38:09. > :38:12.you not bite the 2020 election as a Conservative? I feel comfortable
:38:13. > :38:15.being independent. If you join a party you have to agree to a bunch
:38:16. > :38:23.of stuff I would not want to agree with. I am comfortable being
:38:24. > :38:27.independent. So you will go into 2020 as an independent? If you look
:38:28. > :38:31.at the raising of funds, what Vote Leave did as a pop-up party... We
:38:32. > :38:34.only have five seconds, will you fight as an independent in the next
:38:35. > :38:38.general election? Let's wait and see. Very well! Thank you both very
:38:39. > :38:53.much. Hello and welcome to
:38:54. > :38:56.the Sunday Politics here I hope you remembered
:38:57. > :39:03.to put your clocks forward. As the PM prepares to trigger
:39:04. > :39:09.Article 50 is Brexit the perfect But first, it's been
:39:10. > :39:13.an extraordinary and With me are two MPs
:39:14. > :39:19.who were in the Commons during the attack on Wednesday,
:39:20. > :39:21.Labour's Kerry McCarthy and I guess on occasions like this
:39:22. > :39:30.politics don't matter, do they? I had just arrived to vote
:39:31. > :39:44.when clearly something happened and we were told to go
:39:45. > :39:47.into the Commons chamber And there were a few
:39:48. > :39:51.hundred MPs in there It was only later that I found out
:39:52. > :39:59.quite what had happened. We were looking at social media
:40:00. > :40:02.and getting phone calls but I think the people who were in the MPs'
:40:03. > :40:05.offices or outside the building saw a lot more and obviously a very
:40:06. > :40:09.frightening experience for them. Geoffrey, you were saying
:40:10. > :40:18.you were frightened for your staff My office overlooks Bridge Street
:40:19. > :40:23.and the first thing they knew was this huge bang which was the car
:40:24. > :40:26.going into the wall. They saw the car having been
:40:27. > :40:30.ploughed into the wall, The driver got out,
:40:31. > :40:34.ran round the railings They saw him with two
:40:35. > :40:41.knives stab the policeman. The policeman took three
:40:42. > :40:46.steps back and collapsed. And within seconds as it turns out
:40:47. > :40:48.Michael Fallon's security detail had So they literally
:40:49. > :40:54.saw the whole thing. They also saw what didn't come
:40:55. > :40:57.from the news for a long time, the carnage that the car caused
:40:58. > :41:04.by driving the whole way over Westminster Bridge,
:41:05. > :41:05.ploughing into pedestrians Certainly the lady that works for me
:41:06. > :41:10.is still affected by it. It is a deeply shocking
:41:11. > :41:12.thing to have happened. Has it changed you at all
:41:13. > :41:16.being so close to it? It was a subdued mood
:41:17. > :41:23.in Westminster on Thursday. Parliament sat as normal which I
:41:24. > :41:26.think was the right thing to do. We had a minute's silence
:41:27. > :41:29.and there was a statement from the Prime Minister with some
:41:30. > :41:31.very moving tributes, particularly from James Cleverly,
:41:32. > :41:34.Geoffrey's colleague, who had served with the police
:41:35. > :41:41.officer Keith Palmer, in the Army. But we look back and it's
:41:42. > :41:43.less than a year since And in the immediate aftermath
:41:44. > :41:47.of that people said this is going to change the way we do
:41:48. > :41:50.politics, we need to respect our politicians more,
:41:51. > :41:52.we need a gentler dialogue, We went into public life to serve
:41:53. > :42:06.the people of this country, to help our country be
:42:07. > :42:18.a better place. Frankly, if we let the terrorists
:42:19. > :42:20.interrupt what we do in our democracy, then to a degree
:42:21. > :42:22.they have won. It is imperative for our
:42:23. > :42:25.democracy that we carry on. In some ways it makes
:42:26. > :42:27.you take your role more seriously because sometimes you can forget,
:42:28. > :42:30.you turn up, it's your day job, even though you're in the Palace
:42:31. > :42:33.of Westminster, the importance of your role doesn't
:42:34. > :42:34.always strike you. Something like this, you think,
:42:35. > :42:37.we do have an important role to play Sorry, Kerry, I've always
:42:38. > :42:41.accepted a degree of risk. I always thought that something
:42:42. > :42:45.like this might happen, and God forbid that it
:42:46. > :42:48.never happens again. But if you are in a place
:42:49. > :42:51.that is so much the focus of the country's activities
:42:52. > :42:54.you are inevitably at risk. But of course the place
:42:55. > :42:57.is like a fortress. Not all the police there are armed
:42:58. > :43:01.but a lot of them are. Imagine that London became too
:43:02. > :43:05.difficult to attack perhaps, landmarks like that,
:43:06. > :43:08.and the terrorists moved out, perhaps targeted
:43:09. > :43:09.the Cotswolds or Bristol How long would it take to get
:43:10. > :43:20.an armed officer to the scene? We can't have armed
:43:21. > :43:22.officers everywhere. It just wouldn't be practical
:43:23. > :43:27.to have an armed officer in the marketplace in Cirencester,
:43:28. > :43:30.even on a 12-hour basis, And in any case I think
:43:31. > :43:34.the terrorists will always find somewhere where they can get a car
:43:35. > :43:37.or a lorry and a crowd of people, where there isn't
:43:38. > :43:39.necessarily an armed officer. Kerry, in most of the world
:43:40. > :43:48.the police are armed. If there'd been an armed
:43:49. > :43:50.police officer when Jo Cox It wouldn't have saved
:43:51. > :43:56.her life, I think. And we don't want to live
:43:57. > :43:58.in a country that's I think it is still important
:43:59. > :44:01.that Parliament remains But you are saying if
:44:02. > :44:07.Parliament was sealed off. I think it's quite important for our
:44:08. > :44:10.democracy that it is somewhere that people can come and lobby their MPs
:44:11. > :44:13.but clearly the security But, God forbid, but a man
:44:14. > :44:19.with a gun or a knife, somewhere miles away from an armed
:44:20. > :44:21.police officer, there was help within seconds at Westminster,
:44:22. > :44:24.it could be 20 minutes, In a market town it's a job
:44:25. > :44:32.enough to get a policeman there even once a week,
:44:33. > :44:34.let alone have an armed We have been through all this
:44:35. > :44:40.before with the IRA, the bombings, God forbid,
:44:41. > :44:44.Birmingham and other cities. I'm just hopeful that this whole
:44:45. > :44:46.thing won't now spread. Any thoughts from you about how
:44:47. > :44:49.we could improve security? We have heard that the police have
:44:50. > :44:52.instigated assessments My concern in Bristol
:44:53. > :45:02.is for my staff because a lot of the time I will be in Parliament
:45:03. > :45:05.where the security is much higher. So we've had much stronger
:45:06. > :45:10.security put in there. I'm sure security will be
:45:11. > :45:14.reviewed all the way round and there are more things
:45:15. > :45:17.we could do. Theresa May will begin the process
:45:18. > :45:22.of leaving the EU next week. She says it's going
:45:23. > :45:34.to be an historic day. Swindon voted for Leave,
:45:35. > :45:36.and has plenty to gain, or lose, depending on your point
:45:37. > :45:38.of view, from Brexit. It has wealth and major
:45:39. > :45:40.international employers alongside So on the eve of our departure
:45:41. > :45:44.from Europe Martin Jones has been finding out if Swindon's enthusiasm
:45:45. > :45:47.for Brexit is still strong. Wasdell Packaging, on the edge
:45:48. > :45:50.of Swindon, puts pills in the packs If you've ever wondered how
:45:51. > :45:57.the pills and the medicines that we all rely on every day get
:45:58. > :46:01.to us in packs like these, well, They are put in a hopper there,
:46:02. > :46:07.it gets processed along here, and then they get sorted
:46:08. > :46:10.and packed by hand. And crucially they are then
:46:11. > :46:14.exported all over the world. This product is off
:46:15. > :46:17.to Romania, Estonia, Italy, Italy, Germany,
:46:18. > :46:33.France. Like many global exporters
:46:34. > :46:35.the owner supported Remain. You might think that leaving the EU
:46:36. > :46:38.would be a bitter pill to swallow. Business-wise, if we take 2015-2016,
:46:39. > :46:41.we turned over 22 million. So business for us
:46:42. > :46:53.is very, very good. It's because the weak pound means
:46:54. > :46:56.export sales have soared and they are doing so well they want
:46:57. > :46:59.to expand, creating hundreds of new What will happen
:47:00. > :47:05.to a workforce drawn The staff is not
:47:06. > :47:08.coping very well to be We have 54 different nationalities
:47:09. > :47:14.work within the group. I'm asked on a daily basis,
:47:15. > :47:18.will we be sent home? As I tell all the staff,
:47:19. > :47:21.not to worry, things are very But not everyone
:47:22. > :47:32.shares his confidence. The local councillor
:47:33. > :47:33.is a passionate Remainer who fears big firms
:47:34. > :47:35.could scale back in Swindon causing
:47:36. > :47:37.unemployment and fear. Swindon is a multicultural
:47:38. > :47:39.town and we are very proud that we lived in racial
:47:40. > :47:45.harmony for many years. And I'm deeply concerned about
:47:46. > :47:48.the developments that are currently This is Park South in Swindon,
:47:49. > :47:57.fertile ground for the Brexit campaigners which is
:47:58. > :47:59.where I meet the man who was Swindon's Vote Leave
:48:00. > :48:01.coordinator, appropriately The general consensus
:48:02. > :48:09.though is that people who actually supported
:48:10. > :48:32.Remain are saying we just That message of get on the third is
:48:33. > :48:37.supported by most people I speak to whether Leave or Remain. It is a
:48:38. > :48:42.long and drawn out process. It is either get on with it or don't
:48:43. > :48:48.bother. I like to have this country back with its people again. It does
:48:49. > :48:52.poke its nose into much, the common market. Even though you are a remain
:48:53. > :48:56.are happy that she is getting on with it? Yes, the people have
:48:57. > :49:02.decided to leave the European Union. She has to do that. That is the will
:49:03. > :49:11.of the people. We are all believers know any sense? Yes. You have two
:49:12. > :49:15.follow the majority. It is sometimes said the Brexit deal will involve
:49:16. > :49:19.the most complex negotiations of all time. Perhaps a delivery from
:49:20. > :49:29.Swindon will help with the late nights and the headaches.
:49:30. > :49:32.Kerry, you were obviously they remain, have you no decided, let us
:49:33. > :49:38.get on with it and put your position to one side? Most importantly, we
:49:39. > :49:43.know that the Prime Minister has said she will trigger article 50
:49:44. > :49:47.next week. My concern will be that we don't rush headlong into a hard
:49:48. > :49:51.Brexit. There are still so many unanswered questions about what our
:49:52. > :49:55.access to the single market would be. The rates of EU nationals, as we
:49:56. > :50:02.saw in that film. From a Labour point of view, the food sector,
:50:03. > :50:10.hospitality, farming, how are they going to survive? My concern is the
:50:11. > :50:15.detail. There is not going to be a second referendum now. But I have so
:50:16. > :50:20.many concerns that the Government is not prepared for this, has not got
:50:21. > :50:23.it through, that it will have major implications. It is a combination of
:50:24. > :50:27.trying to get the best deal we can but also to point out where the
:50:28. > :50:31.Government is failing and to ring the alarm bell that we are heading
:50:32. > :50:38.for disaster, which I think we are. Do you? Do you? No. Your
:50:39. > :50:48.constituency voted narrowly in favour of Remain and you were a
:50:49. > :50:53.Leaver. Our people reconciled to it? I do not think people are
:50:54. > :50:58.reconciled. I do not think there will be a disaster around the
:50:59. > :51:02.corner. Our country can become an open country trading around the
:51:03. > :51:06.world but I agree we need to offer maximum reassurance to people like
:51:07. > :51:10.those employees in the film, but that they are legally here, they
:51:11. > :51:14.will be welcome to stay here. You would rather do that right now. I
:51:15. > :51:18.have asked the Prime Minister a question in Parliament, that we need
:51:19. > :51:21.to get on that, as soon as possible, to give them that reissues that they
:51:22. > :51:28.are welcome here. You have met farmers this last week, what are
:51:29. > :51:32.they saying? Virus generally, just generalising, they were generally in
:51:33. > :51:38.favour of leaving. And they know having remorse? A little bit, yes.
:51:39. > :51:41.They are beginning to wonder what is going to happen to them. I was
:51:42. > :51:48.trying to give them what we shouldn't I could. The present
:51:49. > :51:52.system will remain until 2020. Thereafter the Government will need
:51:53. > :51:56.to decide on their subsidies. The EU are already talking this week about
:51:57. > :52:02.a ?50 billion bill before they even start talking about that. In the
:52:03. > :52:07.article 50 wording it makes it very clear that there is no legal
:52:08. > :52:12.obligation to pay that money. If we do it it will be on a specific basis
:52:13. > :52:19.for a specific item that we get in return. But we could perhaps be 50
:52:20. > :52:23.billion in return for free trading for five years or something like
:52:24. > :52:27.that? It is conceivable that it is more likely that we will pay
:52:28. > :52:30.something and nothing like 50 billion for participating in a joint
:52:31. > :52:37.research programme. The benefits are beginning to slip away? We will no
:52:38. > :52:42.longer be paying a huge PEG. We will not get any of the benefits back. We
:52:43. > :52:48.will not be paying that. A significant amount of money. A ?10
:52:49. > :52:55.billion benefit. Barriers to trade. We may be me not, it depends on how
:52:56. > :52:58.the negotiation pans out. We can be pessimistic. We should look forward
:52:59. > :53:04.to this. It is going to happen. Are you looking forward to it? No, take
:53:05. > :53:08.farming, I am on the select committee, and there is an enquiry
:53:09. > :53:14.into labour shortages in food and farming. We have had people come to
:53:15. > :53:21.us, and asparagus grower, saying the asparagus will rot in the guide
:53:22. > :53:29.because there is no one to picket. Nine since Brexit has been bad, so
:53:30. > :53:37.why should it change. Look at the value of the pound. In Swindon it
:53:38. > :53:40.was proving beneficial but other people are finding it expensive but
:53:41. > :53:42.from the Labour point of view if we do not have access to EU workers
:53:43. > :53:47.that are prepared to work in food, that are prepared to work in food,
:53:48. > :53:52.food processing, hospitality, the evidence we were given... Why should
:53:53. > :53:58.we not have access to them? We will. If freedom of movement goes, this is
:53:59. > :54:01.all part and parcel, when people voted to Leave they voted for
:54:02. > :54:05.restrictions on immigration, if we do not have those restrictions on
:54:06. > :54:08.immigration what people voted for? We will. It is one of the great
:54:09. > :54:12.benefits of leaving, this country will be able to make its own
:54:13. > :54:16.decisions on immigration, we will not lead to disconnect in favour of
:54:17. > :54:19.Europeans, they can come in from all over the world. We have got two more
:54:20. > :54:25.years of this. We believe that today. The local
:54:26. > :54:29.election campaign of 2017 is up and running you will be pleased to know.
:54:30. > :54:33.In five and a half weeks' time the polls will open for most of us in
:54:34. > :54:38.the West to see who will take charge. Policies are planned and
:54:39. > :54:41.manifestos printed. As the local effort worthwhile when many will be
:54:42. > :54:48.more swayed by what is happening in national politics?
:54:49. > :54:52.Leaflets are being printed, activists mobilise, canvassers sent
:54:53. > :54:55.onto the streets. You can tell there is an election coming, but does all
:54:56. > :55:00.this make much difference to how people will vote in May? Roger's
:55:01. > :55:05.corridors of power have been conservative dominated for two
:55:06. > :55:10.decades. The leader and her deputy are proud of their record but it is
:55:11. > :55:14.little noticed by the electorate who are instead swayed by national
:55:15. > :55:19.politics. It is always frustrating for local Government, we do not get
:55:20. > :55:22.this in turn out as the central Government elections, and it
:55:23. > :55:25.frustrates me that on the doorstep they will be talking about Brexit
:55:26. > :55:29.and Theresa May, but you have to keep biting your message out. We
:55:30. > :55:32.have got a good message and Wiltshire. One party unashamedly
:55:33. > :55:37.focusing on local issues are the Liberal Democrats. In the office
:55:38. > :55:42.they sought through leaflets for the Metro mere contest that they want to
:55:43. > :55:48.shout about but's exit from Europe. We are up for a fight, we ought to
:55:49. > :55:50.show this Brexit Government that we can win this election. It is giving
:55:51. > :55:55.us the biggest opportunity that you us the biggest opportunity that you
:55:56. > :55:59.can ever imagine. This campaign is not only about local issues, it is
:56:00. > :56:03.also about sending a message to the Tories that we are very disgruntled
:56:04. > :56:10.about the way our politics is at this moment in time. Open to change
:56:11. > :56:14.the tone of politics are the Greens. Party leaders visited Bristol to
:56:15. > :56:19.meet councillors and activists, they hope to win over voters with their
:56:20. > :56:22.overall philosophy. Politics perhaps there's something that they don't
:56:23. > :56:29.want to think about on day-to-day basis, but who really are open to
:56:30. > :56:32.voting for positive change on May the 4th. Those are the people that
:56:33. > :56:37.we are going to be reaching out to over the next few months. But other
:56:38. > :56:45.leaders are more divisive. Jeremy Corbyn was in on Friday campaigning
:56:46. > :56:53.with readers Metro mayor candidate, most in the audience were fans but
:56:54. > :56:58.not all. He is not deterred. We are putting our message out there, we
:56:59. > :57:00.have a large membership, we have a good campaigning strategy,
:57:01. > :57:05.enthusiastic candidates for the Metro mayor. Then why is it not
:57:06. > :57:08.working? It would be helpful of people would occasionally get around
:57:09. > :57:14.to discussing the policies that we faced in this country. He knows me
:57:15. > :57:18.the force will be crucial for his future. Another party that has had
:57:19. > :57:23.leadership troubles as Ukip. Members hope to break on last time 's
:57:24. > :57:28.breakthrough that they can seed recent months have been difficult.
:57:29. > :57:32.It has, make no bones about it. We are not the only party that has
:57:33. > :57:38.suffered internal problems and squabbling and fighting. That is a
:57:39. > :57:42.result of the growth, as we have got bigger, we have got more people
:57:43. > :57:45.involved, there are people on the paedophilia who have their own
:57:46. > :58:00.agendas and they are the shingles, and the same could be said about
:58:01. > :58:03.Labour, Conservative. -- there are people on the periphery who have
:58:04. > :58:10.their own agendas. With education, the police, social
:58:11. > :58:14.clear, in crisis, the Tories still expects to do quite well in the
:58:15. > :58:17.elections, how does that work which the economy is still performing
:58:18. > :58:23.well. Record numbers of people in work. We are still living with the
:58:24. > :58:28.legacy of the huge deficit of debt that we had and therefore we have
:58:29. > :58:31.got to keep bailing down on that so that we do eliminate the deficit so
:58:32. > :58:36.that our children don't keep saying this and being a huge out of
:58:37. > :58:44.interest. Kerry, can you see Labour meeting any gains in me? Certainly
:58:45. > :58:47.in Bristol we do not have local elections, we had ours last year,
:58:48. > :58:51.and the mayor was elected then, and we have just got the Metro mayor,
:58:52. > :58:55.it'll be more difficult for us, it is wider than just Bristol, that's
:58:56. > :59:03.what the Government has been doing to local councils, ?100 million
:59:04. > :59:08.worth of cats, that a state of the agenda and the impact on public
:59:09. > :59:11.services, the crisis in the NHS, schools funding, local people will
:59:12. > :59:21.reflect on that and blame the Government for the point. Why vote
:59:22. > :59:25.for a Labour mayor or council when they have to impose a Conservative
:59:26. > :59:30.lead austerity regime? It is partly about what priorities they would
:59:31. > :59:33.have if they do have to look for savings, look for reductions, then
:59:34. > :59:38.what do they regard as important and whose interests they have in mind,
:59:39. > :59:41.but also prepared to challenge the Government and say we will not
:59:42. > :59:45.accept this and asked for more money and asked for the powers to carry
:59:46. > :59:49.out what we need to do. Things like building social housing that is
:59:50. > :59:53.Iheanacho narrow agenda. Are you really do does not appear to be a
:59:54. > :59:59.May election in sight? A general election? We are definitely not good
:00:00. > :00:02.to get an early election in my view, but on the previous point,
:00:03. > :00:07.Conservative administrations, Gloucestershire County Council has
:00:08. > :00:12.been administered by a hung council, run by the Conservatives, it is more
:00:13. > :00:15.lean and modern than it was five years ago. We have to leave it
:00:16. > :00:24.there. Just time for it was through the rest of the week's news in 60
:00:25. > :00:28.seconds. South Gloucestershire council had to
:00:29. > :00:33.apologise this week after sending a letter to a dead woman saying she no
:00:34. > :00:34.longer qualified for council tax reduction.
:00:35. > :00:41.Christopher Davies said it was insensitive.
:00:42. > :00:47.If the reason for the reduction is death, do not print, do not send.
:00:48. > :00:51.The new director of GCHQ has been named. Jeremy Fleming will take over
:00:52. > :00:54.the top job at Cheltenham's spy agency this Easter.
:00:55. > :00:58.The Government's consultation on school funding came to an end this
:00:59. > :01:04.week. It is to make the amount given to city and country schools more
:01:05. > :01:09.equal. But some MPs told the Prime Minister does not go far enough.
:01:10. > :01:15.And more than a tonne of waste was dumped in Swindon this week by the
:01:16. > :01:18.local council. It highlighted 3000 cases of illegal rubbish left in the
:01:19. > :01:25.town every year. And, yes, they could clean it up
:01:26. > :01:29.afterwards. That was the beach. A big week to come. That is all from
:01:30. > :01:36.the West this week. My thanks to my guests. Both celebrating birthdays
:01:37. > :01:40.this week. Kerry, it is used today, happy birthday. You can follow us on
:01:41. > :01:45.Twitter for the latest political news and you can catch up with this
:01:46. > :01:46.show on the iPlayer. Now it is back to London and Andrew will be
:01:47. > :01:49.we don't have any more time! Thank you both for coming in, Andrew, back
:01:50. > :01:55.to you. So yesterday the European Union
:01:56. > :02:12.celebrated its 60th birthday at a party in Rome, the city
:02:13. > :02:15.where the founding document Leaders of 27 EU countries
:02:16. > :02:19.were there to mark the occasion - overshadowing it, though,
:02:20. > :02:21.the continued terrorist threat, And on Wednesday Theresa May,
:02:22. > :02:24.who wasn't in Rome yesterday, will trigger Article 50,
:02:25. > :02:26.formally starting The President of the European
:02:27. > :02:29.Council, Donald Tusk, made an appeal for unity
:02:30. > :02:35.at the gathering. Today in Rome, we are renewing
:02:36. > :02:40.the unique alliance of free nations that was initiated 60 years ago
:02:41. > :02:48.by our great predecessors. At that time, they did not
:02:49. > :02:51.discuss multiple speeds, they did not devise exits,
:02:52. > :02:55.but despite all the tragic circumstances of the recent history
:02:56. > :03:15.they placed all their faith Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that
:03:16. > :03:19.has the Council of ministers, and on that council where every member of
:03:20. > :03:24.the EU sits he is an important figure in what is now about to
:03:25. > :03:30.happen. We have got to negotiate our divorce terms, we've got to agree a
:03:31. > :03:33.new free trade deal, new crime-fighting arrangements, we've
:03:34. > :03:39.got to repatriate 50 international trade agreements, and all of that
:03:40. > :03:45.has to be ratified within two years, by 27 other countries. Can that
:03:46. > :03:49.really happen?! I don't think it is inconceivable because it is in the
:03:50. > :03:52.interests of those 27 EU member states to try and negotiate a deal
:03:53. > :03:57.that we can all live with, because that would be preferable to Britain
:03:58. > :04:01.crashing out within two years. But I think this is why Labour's position
:04:02. > :04:06.is becoming increasingly incoherent. Keir Starmer has briefed today that
:04:07. > :04:09.he will be making a speech tomorrow setting out six conditions which he
:04:10. > :04:11.wants the deal to meet, otherwise Labour won't vote for it, but if
:04:12. > :04:32.Labour doesn't vote for it that doesn't mean we will be able to
:04:33. > :04:34.negotiate an extension, that would be incredibly difficult and require
:04:35. > :04:37.the consent of each of the 27 member states, so if Labour votes against
:04:38. > :04:40.it we will just crash out, it is effectively Labour saying no deal is
:04:41. > :04:42.better than a poor deal, which is not supposed to be their position.
:04:43. > :04:45.Labour's position may be incoherent but I was not asking about their
:04:46. > :04:47.position, I was asking about the Government's position. The man
:04:48. > :04:49.heading the Badila said he wants it ready by October next year so that
:04:50. > :04:51.it can go through the ratification process, people looking at this
:04:52. > :04:56.would think it is Mission: Impossible. It seems impossible to
:04:57. > :05:03.me to be done in that time. The fact that it is 27 countries, the whole
:05:04. > :05:06.of the European Parliament as well, there will be too many people
:05:07. > :05:12.throbbing spanners in the works and quite rightly. We have embarked on
:05:13. > :05:16.something that is truly terrible and disastrous, and the imagery we can
:05:17. > :05:21.have of those 27 countries celebrating together 60 years of the
:05:22. > :05:24.most extraordinary successful movement for peace, for shared
:05:25. > :05:31.European values, and others not there... We were not there at the
:05:32. > :05:38.start either, and we are not there now! And we have been bad partners
:05:39. > :05:42.while we were inside, but now that we are leaving... They did not look
:05:43. > :05:47.like it was a birthday party to me! I think it was, there was a sense of
:05:48. > :05:52.renewal, Europe exists as a place envied in the world for its values,
:05:53. > :05:56.for its peacefulness, that is why people flocked to its borders, that
:05:57. > :06:03.is why they come here. Can you look at the agenda that faces the UK
:06:04. > :06:07.Government and EU 27, is it not possible, in fact even likely, that
:06:08. > :06:14.as the process comes to an end they will have to agree on a number of
:06:15. > :06:19.areas of transitional arrangements? I think they will and they will have
:06:20. > :06:22.to agree that soon, I would not be surprised if sometime soon there is
:06:23. > :06:25.an understanding is not a formal decision that this is a process that
:06:26. > :06:30.will extend over something closer to buy or seven than two years. On
:06:31. > :06:33.Wednesday article 50 will be filed and there will be lots of excitement
:06:34. > :06:38.and hubbub but nothing concrete can happen for a while. Elections in
:06:39. > :06:42.France in May, elections in Germany which could really result in a
:06:43. > :06:53.change of Government... That is the big change, Mrs Merkel might not be
:06:54. > :06:57.there by October. And who foresaw that a few months ago? So you might
:06:58. > :06:59.be into 28 Dean before you are into the substantive discussions about
:07:00. > :07:01.how much market access or regulatory observance. I cannot see it being
:07:02. > :07:05.completed in two years. I could see, if negotiations are not too
:07:06. > :07:09.acrimonious, that transitional agreement taking place. Let's look
:07:10. > :07:13.at the timetable again. The council doesn't meet until the end of April,
:07:14. > :07:16.it meets in the middle of the French elections, the first round will have
:07:17. > :07:20.taken place, they will need a second round so not much can happen.
:07:21. > :07:26.President Hollande will be representing France, then the new
:07:27. > :07:31.French government, if it is Marine le Pen all bets are off, but even if
:07:32. > :07:35.it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a party, he will not have a majority,
:07:36. > :07:40.the French will take a long while to sort out themselves. Then it is
:07:41. > :07:43.summer, we are off to the Cote d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian
:07:44. > :07:49.elite, then we come back from that and the Germans are in an election,
:07:50. > :07:53.it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr
:07:54. > :08:06.Schultz, he may have to try to form a difficult green red coalition,
:08:07. > :08:09.that would take a while. Before you know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and
:08:10. > :08:12.no substance has taken place, yet we are then less than a year before
:08:13. > :08:14.this has to be decided. It is a big task and I'm sure Jana is right that
:08:15. > :08:17.there will be transitional arrangements and not everything will
:08:18. > :08:21.be concluded in that two year timetable, but in some respects what
:08:22. > :08:26.you have described helps those of us on the Eurosceptic site because it
:08:27. > :08:29.means they cannot really be a meaningful parliamentary vote on the
:08:30. > :08:33.terms of the deal because nothing is going to be agreed quickly enough
:08:34. > :08:37.for them to be able to go back and agree something else if Parliament
:08:38. > :08:40.rejects it, so when the Government eventually have something ready to
:08:41. > :08:46.bring before Parliament it will be a take it or leave it boat. How
:08:47. > :08:49.extraordinary that people who have campaigned. Indeed give us our
:08:50. > :08:52.country back and say, isn't it wonderful, we won't have a
:08:53. > :08:57.meaningful boat for our parliamentarians of the most
:08:58. > :09:01.important... We don't know what the negotiation, the package is, day by
:09:02. > :09:04.day we see more and more complicated areas nobody ever thought about,
:09:05. > :09:11.nobody mentioned during the campaign, all of which has to be
:09:12. > :09:15.resolved and the European Council and the negotiators say nothing is
:09:16. > :09:20.agreed until everything is agreed. You lead us into a catastrophe.
:09:21. > :09:24.There will be plenty of opportunity for Parliament to have its say
:09:25. > :09:28.following the introduction of the Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if
:09:29. > :09:33.there will be no Parliamentary time devoted. The final package is what
:09:34. > :09:38.counts. We have two years to blog about this!
:09:39. > :09:48.There was a big Proview -- pro-EU march yesterday... I was there!
:09:49. > :09:52.Polly Toynbee was there, down to Parliament Square, lots of people
:09:53. > :09:56.there marching in favour of the European Union. We can see the EU
:09:57. > :10:03.flags there on flags, lots of national flags as well, the British
:10:04. > :10:11.one. Polly, is it the aim of people like you still to stop Brexit, or to
:10:12. > :10:17.soften Brexit? I think the aim is for the best you can possibly do to
:10:18. > :10:20.limit the damage. Of course, if it happens that once people have had a
:10:21. > :10:24.chance to see how much they were lied to during the campaign and how
:10:25. > :10:28.dreadful the deal is likely to be, if it happens that enough people in
:10:29. > :10:34.the population have changed their minds, then maybe... There is no
:10:35. > :10:37.sign up yet. But we have not even begun, people have not begun to
:10:38. > :10:42.confront what it is going to mean. Wait and see. I think it is just
:10:43. > :10:47.being as close as we can. Is that credible, do you think, to stop it
:10:48. > :10:51.or to ameliorate it in terms of the Remainers? I think it is far more
:10:52. > :10:56.credible to try and stop it but even then the scope is limited. It is
:10:57. > :10:57.fairly apparent Theresa May's interpretation of the referendum is
:10:58. > :11:19.the country wants an end to free movement, there is probably no way
:11:20. > :11:21.of doing that inside the single market. She also wants external
:11:22. > :11:24.trade deals, no way of doing that outside the customs unit, said the
:11:25. > :11:26.only night you can depend if you are pro-European is, let's not leave
:11:27. > :11:28.without any trade pact, at least let's meet Canada and have a
:11:29. > :11:31.formalised trade agreement. The idea of ace -- of a very soft exit is
:11:32. > :11:34.gone now because the public really did want an end to free movement and
:11:35. > :11:36.the Government really does want external trade deals. It depends
:11:37. > :11:44.what changes in Europe. I think the momentum behind the Remoaning
:11:45. > :11:49.movement will move away. One of the banners I saw being held up
:11:50. > :11:52.yesterday by a young boy on the news was, don't put my daddy on a boat.
:11:53. > :11:57.It gets a lot of its moral force from the uncertainty surrounding the
:11:58. > :12:02.fate of EU nationals here and our resident in the remainder of the EU
:12:03. > :12:05.and I think David Lidington is right that it will be concluded quite
:12:06. > :12:10.quickly once negotiations start and that will take a lot of the heat and
:12:11. > :12:14.momentum out of the remaining movement. Why didn't Theresa May
:12:15. > :12:19.allow that amendment that said, we will do that, as an act of
:12:20. > :12:23.generosity, we will say, of course those European citizens here are
:12:24. > :12:27.welcome to stay? It would have been such a good opening move in the
:12:28. > :12:33.negotiations, instead of which she blocked it. It does not augur well.
:12:34. > :12:36.I have interviewed many Tories about this and put that point to them but
:12:37. > :12:44.they often say the Prime minister's job is to look after UK citizen in
:12:45. > :12:49.the EU... Bargaining chips, I think you have to be generous and you have
:12:50. > :12:51.to wish you people in Spain and everywhere else where there are
:12:52. > :12:55.British citizens would have responded. The British Government
:12:56. > :12:58.did try and raise that with their EU counterparts and were told, we
:12:59. > :13:02.cannot begin to talk about that until article 50 has been triggered.
:13:03. > :13:06.Next week we will be able to talk about it. How generous it would have
:13:07. > :13:11.been, we would have started on a better note. Didn't happen, we will
:13:12. > :13:15.see what happens next with EU citizens. That is it for today, the
:13:16. > :13:17.Daily Politics will be back tomorrow at midday and every day next week on
:13:18. > :13:20.BBC Two as always. And there's also a Question Time
:13:21. > :13:22.special live tomorrow night from Birmingham -
:13:23. > :13:23.with guests including the Brexit Secretary David Davis,
:13:24. > :13:26.Labour's Keir Starmer, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage
:13:27. > :13:28.and the SNP's Alex Salmond - I'll be back next week
:13:29. > :13:34.at 11am here on BBC One. Until then, remember -
:13:35. > :13:37.if it's Sunday, it's MUSIC: The Elements
:13:38. > :14:44.by Tom Lehrer # There's Attenborough, micro.bit,
:14:45. > :14:47.The Bottom Line and In Our Time # And Terrific Scientific
:14:48. > :14:51.and Ten Pieces and All In The Mind