:00:36. > :00:40.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:44. > :00:47.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:48. > :00:49.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:50. > :00:55.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:56. > :00:58.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:00:59. > :01:02.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:03. > :01:06.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:07. > :01:08.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:09. > :01:14.more staff at security and intelligence agencies.
:01:15. > :01:16.In the West: Getting the message across The independents
:01:17. > :01:22.bringing a bit of colour to the general election campaign.
:01:23. > :01:25.supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering
:01:26. > :01:32.the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this
:01:33. > :01:35.morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia
:01:36. > :01:36.Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts
:01:37. > :01:41.on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,
:01:42. > :01:49.the election campaign And some recent polls
:01:50. > :01:52.suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look
:01:53. > :01:58.at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over
:01:59. > :02:02.the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third
:02:03. > :02:07.of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's
:02:08. > :02:09.Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be
:02:10. > :02:15.enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break
:02:16. > :02:17.in campaigning for And in the evening it will be
:02:18. > :02:23.the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP
:02:24. > :02:27.publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do
:02:28. > :02:30.so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's
:02:31. > :02:33.Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main
:02:34. > :02:37.parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim
:02:38. > :02:46.Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time
:02:47. > :02:48.special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,
:02:49. > :02:51.but will take questions consecutively from members
:02:52. > :02:53.of the audience. The final week of campaigning
:02:54. > :02:56.is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days
:02:57. > :03:04.of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once
:03:05. > :03:10.voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early
:03:11. > :03:13.in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always
:03:14. > :03:16.means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,
:03:17. > :03:19.if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion
:03:20. > :03:21.polls today, which have the Conservative lead
:03:22. > :03:23.over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.
:03:24. > :03:26.So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice
:03:27. > :03:29.is the expert we always turn to at times like this,
:03:30. > :03:42.and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They
:03:43. > :03:47.seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very
:03:48. > :03:51.consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare
:03:52. > :03:57.them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto
:03:58. > :04:02.launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two
:04:03. > :04:08.points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear
:04:09. > :04:13.consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this
:04:14. > :04:16.matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads
:04:17. > :04:22.are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the
:04:23. > :04:25.landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in
:04:26. > :04:36.trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is
:04:37. > :04:40.further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that
:04:41. > :04:46.young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote
:04:47. > :04:49.for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out
:04:50. > :04:53.to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls
:04:54. > :04:57.that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the
:04:58. > :05:02.Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the
:05:03. > :05:05.Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,
:05:06. > :05:12.they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The
:05:13. > :05:17.Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you
:05:18. > :05:23.look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has
:05:24. > :05:29.been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now
:05:30. > :05:32.average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of
:05:33. > :05:36.the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is
:05:37. > :05:40.I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour
:05:41. > :05:47.manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,
:05:48. > :05:51.we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the
:05:52. > :05:55.fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,
:05:56. > :05:59.together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never
:06:00. > :06:04.voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.
:06:05. > :06:07.What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather
:06:08. > :06:13.has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?
:06:14. > :06:16.This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces
:06:17. > :06:21.the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at
:06:22. > :06:27.which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to
:06:28. > :06:31.correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support
:06:32. > :06:34.a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't
:06:35. > :06:38.assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were
:06:39. > :06:47.wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls
:06:48. > :06:51.have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they
:06:52. > :06:55.are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so
:06:56. > :07:02.far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And
:07:03. > :07:05.subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low
:07:06. > :07:09.initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of
:07:10. > :07:13.movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more
:07:14. > :07:23.in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to
:07:24. > :07:28.the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be
:07:29. > :07:32.at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by
:07:33. > :07:37.Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might
:07:38. > :07:41.not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a
:07:42. > :07:46.good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was
:07:47. > :07:53.a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the
:07:54. > :07:57.Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby
:07:58. > :08:02.was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the
:08:03. > :08:06.candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the
:08:07. > :08:11.moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been
:08:12. > :08:16.a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,
:08:17. > :08:20.she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone
:08:21. > :08:24.up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do
:08:25. > :08:28.something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy
:08:29. > :08:32.like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the
:08:33. > :08:36.reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some
:08:37. > :08:39.momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the
:08:40. > :08:43.focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were
:08:44. > :08:47.stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically
:08:48. > :08:53.cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All
:08:54. > :08:58.of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is
:08:59. > :09:02.a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.
:09:03. > :09:05.That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour
:09:06. > :09:10.Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the
:09:11. > :09:14.other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the
:09:15. > :09:20.trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this
:09:21. > :09:24.narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning
:09:25. > :09:28.resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,
:09:29. > :09:31.Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in
:09:32. > :09:36.Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them
:09:37. > :09:40.safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon
:09:41. > :09:47.for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the
:09:48. > :09:52.very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of
:09:53. > :09:59.Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.
:10:00. > :10:05.You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid
:10:06. > :10:09.for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It
:10:10. > :10:14.is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in
:10:15. > :10:18.them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.
:10:19. > :10:22.The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about
:10:23. > :10:28.like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite
:10:29. > :10:32.while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about
:10:33. > :10:35.public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I
:10:36. > :10:40.don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We
:10:41. > :10:44.had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was
:10:45. > :10:48.already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.
:10:49. > :10:53.The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually
:10:54. > :10:55.care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank
:10:56. > :10:57.you very much. The election campaign was,
:10:58. > :10:59.of course, put on hold following the terrorist
:11:00. > :11:01.attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has
:11:02. > :11:04.resumed, it's hardly surprising that security
:11:05. > :11:06.is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it
:11:07. > :11:20.would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at
:11:21. > :11:25.short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.
:11:26. > :11:29.It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very
:11:30. > :11:36.dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community
:11:37. > :11:39.response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police
:11:40. > :11:43.he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I
:11:44. > :11:44.would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources
:11:45. > :11:46.to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds
:11:47. > :11:56.is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a
:11:57. > :11:59.thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is
:12:00. > :12:03.in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow
:12:04. > :12:06.Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any
:12:07. > :12:11.more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of
:12:12. > :12:18.the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also
:12:19. > :12:22.10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by
:12:23. > :12:26.20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police
:12:27. > :12:32.officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison
:12:33. > :12:39.officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not
:12:40. > :12:44.helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra
:12:45. > :12:53.firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border
:12:54. > :12:57.guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not
:12:58. > :13:02.as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.
:13:03. > :13:05.If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy
:13:06. > :13:10.Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.
:13:11. > :13:16.If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why
:13:17. > :13:20.aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more
:13:21. > :13:27.police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing
:13:28. > :13:31.anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We
:13:32. > :13:35.will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very
:13:36. > :13:40.clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop
:13:41. > :13:46.at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be
:13:47. > :13:49.giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you
:13:50. > :13:56.will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need
:13:57. > :13:59.to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are
:14:00. > :14:07.saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger
:14:08. > :14:12.caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,
:14:13. > :14:16.not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from
:14:17. > :14:22.anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of
:14:23. > :14:27.powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to
:14:28. > :14:29.listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the
:14:30. > :14:36.intelligence community and the security service, to the army and
:14:37. > :14:39.the police, about what they think and how they think our communities
:14:40. > :14:44.could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police
:14:45. > :14:50.by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said
:14:51. > :14:54.you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured
:14:55. > :14:59.and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services
:15:00. > :15:04.and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?
:15:05. > :15:08.Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against
:15:09. > :15:13.measures designed to tackle home-grown and international
:15:14. > :15:17.terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week
:15:18. > :15:22.made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant
:15:23. > :15:30.those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into
:15:31. > :15:34.thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and
:15:35. > :15:39.investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?
:15:40. > :15:44.Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:15:45. > :15:48.many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it
:15:49. > :15:51.would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a
:15:52. > :15:58.very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce
:15:59. > :16:01.hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which
:16:02. > :16:05.can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said
:16:06. > :16:08.earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that
:16:09. > :16:12.he has been listening to the security services, what he said
:16:13. > :16:17.about the international situation has also been said by the former
:16:18. > :16:20.head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as
:16:21. > :16:26.president of back -- President Barack Obama.
:16:27. > :16:32.You say he will give the police and security services the resources and
:16:33. > :16:36.powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy
:16:37. > :16:46.Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State
:16:47. > :16:52.the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad
:16:53. > :16:57.idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:16:58. > :17:00.others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm
:17:01. > :17:04.interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to
:17:05. > :17:08.be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in
:17:09. > :17:13.favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on
:17:14. > :17:20.suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex
:17:21. > :17:24.situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it
:17:25. > :17:27.was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation
:17:28. > :17:35.through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly
:17:36. > :17:38.there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,
:17:39. > :17:43.Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other
:17:44. > :17:47.Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this
:17:48. > :17:52.week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We
:17:53. > :17:56.have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,
:17:57. > :18:02.but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is
:18:03. > :18:14.there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been
:18:15. > :18:16.solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but
:18:17. > :18:19.your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they
:18:20. > :18:22.need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will
:18:23. > :18:30.want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in
:18:31. > :18:40.2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At
:18:41. > :18:45.the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the
:18:46. > :18:49.one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What
:18:50. > :18:53.he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism
:18:54. > :19:01.and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed
:19:02. > :19:05.me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy
:19:06. > :19:19.Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with
:19:20. > :19:23.him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but
:19:24. > :19:26.what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat
:19:27. > :19:30.down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he
:19:31. > :19:34.didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think
:19:35. > :19:38.that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These
:19:39. > :19:40.issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together
:19:41. > :19:44.on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have
:19:45. > :19:47.promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify
:19:48. > :19:49.extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,
:19:50. > :19:52.and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,
:19:53. > :19:54.the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants
:19:55. > :19:56.for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them
:19:57. > :20:09.of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:20:10. > :20:13.Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in
:20:14. > :20:18.their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do
:20:19. > :20:22.to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans
:20:23. > :20:27.have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but
:20:28. > :20:33.there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.
:20:34. > :20:37.Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did
:20:38. > :20:42.say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do
:20:43. > :20:45.internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and
:20:46. > :20:52.international response. I think there are a range of issues. We
:20:53. > :20:56.could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words
:20:57. > :21:00.are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made
:21:01. > :21:07.these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do
:21:08. > :21:10.the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to
:21:11. > :21:15.social media companies take down this material? We have an act that
:21:16. > :21:21.was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one
:21:22. > :21:27.of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We
:21:28. > :21:30.have right now officials from my department over in the United States
:21:31. > :21:35.with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that
:21:36. > :21:42.they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have
:21:43. > :21:48.the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that
:21:49. > :21:52.maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies
:21:53. > :21:55.devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see
:21:56. > :22:01.them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a
:22:02. > :22:05.few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted
:22:06. > :22:11.a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve
:22:12. > :22:15.it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime
:22:16. > :22:18.Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but
:22:19. > :22:23.to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People
:22:24. > :22:25.will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is
:22:26. > :22:32.unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,
:22:33. > :22:37.which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote
:22:38. > :22:41.you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the
:22:42. > :22:46.picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was
:22:47. > :22:51.killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be
:22:52. > :22:56.demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the
:22:57. > :23:02.context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces
:23:03. > :23:06.we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been
:23:07. > :23:10.extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way
:23:11. > :23:16.these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were
:23:17. > :23:20.watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to
:23:21. > :23:27.look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto
:23:28. > :23:36.YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I
:23:37. > :23:39.understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting
:23:40. > :23:47.media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...
:23:48. > :23:51.You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young
:23:52. > :23:57.people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I
:23:58. > :24:01.invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on
:24:02. > :24:07.Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos
:24:08. > :24:11.or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as
:24:12. > :24:15.long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to
:24:16. > :24:19.be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying
:24:20. > :24:25.for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance
:24:26. > :24:30.that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people
:24:31. > :24:34.don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians
:24:35. > :24:39.and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be
:24:40. > :24:43.done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It
:24:44. > :24:48.is more about examining how much progress you can make. The
:24:49. > :24:53.Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers
:24:54. > :25:04.in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being
:25:05. > :25:09.monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.
:25:10. > :25:12.Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it
:25:13. > :25:16.is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is
:25:17. > :25:24.important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size
:25:25. > :25:27.of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms
:25:28. > :25:33.not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we
:25:34. > :25:39.have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our
:25:40. > :25:42.manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government
:25:43. > :25:52.spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7
:25:53. > :26:00.billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them
:26:01. > :26:05.on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,
:26:06. > :26:09.and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have
:26:10. > :26:15.quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are
:26:16. > :26:22.using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,
:26:23. > :26:30.but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.
:26:31. > :26:35.Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.
:26:36. > :26:43.Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they
:26:44. > :26:47.are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive
:26:48. > :26:51.issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and
:26:52. > :26:57.at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't
:26:58. > :27:02.come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5
:27:03. > :27:08.and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor
:27:09. > :27:16.them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.
:27:17. > :27:19.You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if
:27:20. > :27:26.they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with
:27:27. > :27:31.the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance
:27:32. > :27:34.between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there
:27:35. > :27:42.is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all
:27:43. > :27:48.sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from
:27:49. > :27:53.where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The
:27:54. > :27:57.control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because
:27:58. > :28:02.one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to
:28:03. > :28:06.satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is
:28:07. > :28:10.right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we
:28:11. > :28:15.won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no
:28:16. > :28:21.point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't
:28:22. > :28:33.give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James
:28:34. > :28:35.Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.
:28:36. > :28:43.The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old
:28:44. > :28:46.Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns
:28:47. > :28:48.about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.
:28:49. > :28:51.In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers
:28:52. > :28:52.investigating radicalisation in the UK.
:28:53. > :28:54.Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,
:28:55. > :28:56.and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO
:28:57. > :28:58.of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.
:28:59. > :29:01.We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem
:29:02. > :29:04.of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.
:29:05. > :29:09.Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,
:29:10. > :29:27.We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -
:29:28. > :29:31.Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify
:29:32. > :29:32.the sources of the problem, and polite society
:29:33. > :29:39.This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.
:29:40. > :29:43.Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,
:29:44. > :29:50.one for each year of life this country had given him.
:29:51. > :29:54.We need to think far more deeply about all this.
:29:55. > :29:57.Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem
:29:58. > :30:05.France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.
:30:06. > :30:09.Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?
:30:10. > :30:17.For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.
:30:18. > :30:20.The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.
:30:21. > :30:24.Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,
:30:25. > :30:28.and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,
:30:29. > :30:34.even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.
:30:35. > :30:44.It is high time we became serious too.
:30:45. > :30:52.Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.
:30:53. > :30:59.We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?
:31:00. > :31:02.Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations
:31:03. > :31:07.who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even
:31:08. > :31:11.violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out
:31:12. > :31:14.of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself
:31:15. > :31:17.experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.
:31:18. > :31:26.These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,
:31:27. > :31:29.hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers
:31:30. > :31:33.Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic
:31:34. > :31:39.anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition
:31:40. > :31:44.I've seen politicians and charities partner
:31:45. > :31:49.with and support some of these voices and groups.
:31:50. > :31:55.Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far
:31:56. > :31:58.right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do
:31:59. > :32:05.But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies
:32:06. > :32:15.Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.
:32:16. > :32:24.We must counter those who seek to divide us.
:32:25. > :32:31.Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,
:32:32. > :32:36.strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,
:32:37. > :32:40.let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The
:32:41. > :32:45.young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at
:32:46. > :32:50.Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its
:32:51. > :32:53.leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of
:32:54. > :32:59.the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they
:33:00. > :33:04.are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was
:33:05. > :33:10.against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just
:33:11. > :33:16.one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?
:33:17. > :33:25.Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in
:33:26. > :33:33.the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting
:33:34. > :33:37.Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide
:33:38. > :33:41.bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to
:33:42. > :33:47.that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been
:33:48. > :33:50.politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,
:33:51. > :33:55.Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and
:33:56. > :34:02.countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist
:34:03. > :34:06.-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If
:34:07. > :34:11.Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look
:34:12. > :34:14.forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join
:34:15. > :34:17.Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist
:34:18. > :34:22.offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got
:34:23. > :34:25.worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your
:34:26. > :34:27.argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of
:34:28. > :34:33.Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?
:34:34. > :34:37.The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to
:34:38. > :34:43.absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me
:34:44. > :34:46.finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It
:34:47. > :34:51.has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth
:34:52. > :34:56.continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically
:34:57. > :35:00.correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to
:35:01. > :35:03.deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in
:35:04. > :35:08.Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a
:35:09. > :35:13.crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are
:35:14. > :35:15.competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are
:35:16. > :35:21.seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians
:35:22. > :35:26.are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims
:35:27. > :35:32.should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.
:35:33. > :35:37.There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to
:35:38. > :35:41.take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many
:35:42. > :35:45.reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on
:35:46. > :35:50.the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in
:35:51. > :35:56.this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A
:35:57. > :35:58.poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would
:35:59. > :36:06.not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to
:36:07. > :36:13.the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they
:36:14. > :36:17.could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.
:36:18. > :36:23.What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current
:36:24. > :36:27.understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university
:36:28. > :36:33.campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material
:36:34. > :36:36.that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of
:36:37. > :36:43.thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is
:36:44. > :36:48.freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is
:36:49. > :36:54.through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights
:36:55. > :37:00.to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a
:37:01. > :37:05.gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many
:37:06. > :37:10.people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That
:37:11. > :37:17.is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights
:37:18. > :37:20.point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not
:37:21. > :37:26.suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people
:37:27. > :37:32.don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be
:37:33. > :37:39.opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human
:37:40. > :37:42.rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution
:37:43. > :37:45.like Salford University you should be held responsible for not
:37:46. > :37:50.cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge
:37:51. > :37:56.extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually
:37:57. > :38:01.counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not
:38:02. > :38:05.about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most
:38:06. > :38:13.effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it
:38:14. > :38:17.doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking
:38:18. > :38:22.place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims
:38:23. > :38:27.in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are
:38:28. > :38:30.homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend
:38:31. > :38:34.among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea
:38:35. > :38:40.that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is
:38:41. > :38:43.also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are
:38:44. > :38:47.defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a
:38:48. > :38:50.better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to
:38:51. > :38:52.get real about that. Thank you very much.
:38:53. > :38:54.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:55. > :38:57.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:58. > :39:05.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:39:06. > :39:08.Welcome to Sunday Politics in the west.
:39:09. > :39:17.The independents trying to get their message
:39:18. > :39:22.across in the general election campaign.
:39:23. > :39:25.I'm joined again by four election hopefuls.
:39:26. > :39:28.They are the Conservative Simon Hoare, Labour's Thangam Debbonaire,
:39:29. > :39:32.Gideon Amos for the Lib Dems and UKIP's Ernie Warrender.
:39:33. > :39:39.We meet with our hearts broken for those victims
:39:40. > :39:43.Of course, in our horror and disgust - we're turning to the politicians
:39:44. > :39:47.to see how they plan to keep us safe in a dangerous world.
:39:48. > :39:49.The answer for Labour's Diane Abbott is a big
:39:50. > :40:06.The reason that we had to, we had to promised 10,000 extra police
:40:07. > :40:10.officers is that an Theresa May 's watch they are 20,000 police
:40:11. > :40:18.officers down so the cost of the entire package which is 10,000 extra
:40:19. > :40:23.police officers, 3000 firefighters, 1000 security people, it would be
:40:24. > :40:28.470 million. Diane Abbott on the 470 million. Diane Abbott on the
:40:29. > :40:34.Andrew Marr show. Simon, all have the Conservatives cut 20,000 police
:40:35. > :40:38.officers? We haven't. You have. We set the budget at the Home Office
:40:39. > :40:42.and commissioners Aji Constable decide whether resources are
:40:43. > :40:44.deployed. You know that if you don't give them the money then they can
:40:45. > :40:47.stop Mac what we have done because stop Mac what we have done because
:40:48. > :40:52.of the nature of policing, we know it is changing, the nature of
:40:53. > :40:58.terrorism is changing as we saw at the tragic event in Manchester. . We
:40:59. > :41:01.have to change the way that we deliver our security and policing
:41:02. > :41:06.services so that is why the government, since 2010, has been
:41:07. > :41:10.putting more money into organisations like MI5 and GCHQ as a
:41:11. > :41:16.remind ourselves, as I think this is remind ourselves, as I think this is
:41:17. > :41:20.the important thing, the issue is fundamentally about trust. We have a
:41:21. > :41:28.Shadow Chancellor who said he would disband MI5 and disarm the police.
:41:29. > :41:33.That is Labour's vision. You cannot trust the Labour Party... Hang on.
:41:34. > :41:38.Lots of words and this is actions. You have cut budgets would have
:41:39. > :41:41.forced police authorities to reduce the number of full-time officers,
:41:42. > :41:46.and even in Somerset there are 602 down since 2010. Crime has been
:41:47. > :41:50.following if you look at statistics across the country. What we have to
:41:51. > :41:55.ensure and I think people really nor in the heart of hearts, when you
:41:56. > :41:59.look at the Conservative Party we are the only party who can be really
:42:00. > :42:09.trusted on delivering a secure country. Ex-mac Gideon Amos, do you
:42:10. > :42:13.agree? The Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Patrick, for us,
:42:14. > :42:19.he has made very clear we need to put an extra 300 million into
:42:20. > :42:24.policing. We need to release the 1% cap on police pay, which of course
:42:25. > :42:28.is damaging to morale. Conservatives are also cutting the armed services.
:42:29. > :42:34.200 Royal Marines poster going, Royal Marines can in Taunton Deane
:42:35. > :42:40.is closing. You would reverse that? We would. Your policy is to roll
:42:41. > :42:47.back surveillance and scrap the present programme. Is that wise? The
:42:48. > :42:52.present programme has been showing to be not working, what we need is a
:42:53. > :42:55.programme that is successful. What Brian Patrick has pointed out is
:42:56. > :43:00.targeting people get her to make sure we are achieving... You are
:43:01. > :43:06.against, you're fighting against encryption on what SAP and whatnot.
:43:07. > :43:09.What we say is that having lighted surveillance on everything and
:43:10. > :43:19.everyone is not the most successful week to identify terrorism. Only six
:43:20. > :43:20.Lib Dem MPs bothered to vote on the investigatory Powers act which
:43:21. > :43:27.brought together all the powers under one act. Six Lib Dem... To
:43:28. > :43:33.answer your question, the reason is as I was saying, that blanket
:43:34. > :43:41.surveillance when you invest huge resources... We would go down that
:43:42. > :43:44.line. Thangam Debbonaire, R Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott the
:43:45. > :43:48.accommodation to keep us safe? You decide Diane Abbott is it we would
:43:49. > :43:52.reverse cuts to police funding and we would have 10,000 extra police
:43:53. > :43:56.officers at a cost of 0.3 million that makes you buy 3 billion. We
:43:57. > :43:59.know how much it will cost unlike the Tory manifesto and we have
:44:00. > :44:02.worked out what our commitments will worked out what our commitments will
:44:03. > :44:08.cost them where we will get the money from. We will invest in border
:44:09. > :44:11.forces, which the Tory government has cut. Theresa May who has been
:44:12. > :44:14.Home Secretary before she was Prime Minister, she is trying to act as
:44:15. > :44:19.though nothing has gone wrong on her watch. Ex-mac do you agree with
:44:20. > :44:23.Jeremy Corbyn that part of the terror problem is our own fault? The
:44:24. > :44:28.fault of foreign policy? That is not what he said, he said
:44:29. > :44:31.down terrorism, causes of terrorism down terrorism, causes of terrorism
:44:32. > :44:38.are not foreign policy alone, he said that context is important. Do
:44:39. > :44:44.you agree? As Boris John has also said context is incredibly
:44:45. > :44:47.important. I used to work with violent men before I was a
:44:48. > :44:53.politician and although the responsibility is always an then,
:44:54. > :44:57.context did play a part. We got part of this on ourselves? That is not
:44:58. > :45:01.I'm seeing, it is important to I'm seeing, it is important to
:45:02. > :45:05.consider context. A Labour government would not be selling arms
:45:06. > :45:09.to despotic regimes regimes where there are concerns about
:45:10. > :45:12.international human rights. The Tory government is saying yes to arms
:45:13. > :45:17.exports to 20 countries that their own foreign and Commonwealth of this
:45:18. > :45:22.the context. If you help our people the context. If you help our people
:45:23. > :45:26.who are going to cause human rights violations are helping to Stuttgart
:45:27. > :45:32.fuel and hatred. It is part of the context. You are part of the
:45:33. > :45:34.Parliamentary group on refugees, can you understand why some voters may
:45:35. > :45:40.not think that having more refugees coming into the country may not be
:45:41. > :45:44.wise? I know that every time I talk to people about refugees, I say to
:45:45. > :45:47.someone in this country was at war and we were in conflict with you
:45:48. > :45:48.expect our neighbours and neighbours and friends and allies to help as
:45:49. > :45:52.they say yes. And when I say someone they say yes. And when I say someone
:45:53. > :45:56.is fleeing persecution and torture and terror, do you think we should
:45:57. > :46:00.welcome them and they say yes, but they also say that he will come must
:46:01. > :46:03.be properly be sourced and worked out and is ten of the parliamentary
:46:04. > :46:11.group I initiated an enquiry that did exactly that, we worked out how
:46:12. > :46:14.to improve the welcome that we give. The security checks? Security checks
:46:15. > :46:21.are important and that is why under a Labour government we would
:46:22. > :46:24.increase border patrols. And anyone from Ukip, you promise more police
:46:25. > :46:30.and prison officers. How would you pay? Typify this we have HS2, the
:46:31. > :46:34.Victorian railway which the Tories are intent on providing when I can
:46:35. > :46:38.get a phone signal let alone transfer data, there is a huge chunk
:46:39. > :46:42.of money that we don't have but they will find it from somewhere, and we
:46:43. > :46:47.want to put the foreign aid budget in line with Obama 's America and
:46:48. > :46:57.Japan. With Jamaica for not so we Japan. With Jamaica for not so we
:46:58. > :47:04.can hear you. Basically we have touched on security here. We don't
:47:05. > :47:09.have much on security, freedom of movement, people can, Glasgow
:47:10. > :47:13.please. That is just not true. -- people can come and go as they
:47:14. > :47:19.finally. You say it is not true but finally. You say it is not true but
:47:20. > :47:26.everyone is satisfied sky to freedom of movement. Theresa May has Home
:47:27. > :47:31.Secretary was booed offstage at the Police Federation conference in
:47:32. > :47:34.2012. We need more police and a more visible presence but we also need,
:47:35. > :47:44.we did a wonderful thing in the fifties... Theresa May was booed by
:47:45. > :47:49.the Police Federation. To take Thangam's point, let's put that into
:47:50. > :47:51.context, it was a tough speech that the Prime Minister gave us Home
:47:52. > :47:55.Secretary access to the Police Federation, which the readership
:47:56. > :47:59.then accepted, that they needed to modernise and change the ways that
:48:00. > :48:04.the operated as an organisation. That is where some of the building
:48:05. > :48:07.came from. I don't think the key message from Theresa May has Home
:48:08. > :48:11.Secretary and Prime Minister would be booed by the police because I
:48:12. > :48:16.think they know quite rightly that has Home Secretary she made sure
:48:17. > :48:20.whether it was sorting out stop and search are putting in place the
:48:21. > :48:23.investigatory Powers act, making sure that our security and police
:48:24. > :48:28.services and increasingly as we talk about integration... Very sorry, no
:48:29. > :48:33.speeches. Thangam what would you say to that? I would challenge what
:48:34. > :48:38.you're saying, I think it is that we are clear, there is a context we
:48:39. > :48:42.response ability for terrorism has response ability for terrorism has
:48:43. > :48:46.to be on the terrorist, however not having enough police makes people
:48:47. > :48:49.feel fearful, people in Bristol and beyond have told me about their
:48:50. > :48:54.anxieties about police cuts and they want them reversed. Treat people as
:48:55. > :48:59.you would be treated as saying that would apply to Theresa May at the
:49:00. > :49:03.least Federation, as public servants feel they're being treated badly by
:49:04. > :49:06.Conservative ministers not only on paper than the way talked about and
:49:07. > :49:08.that is the reaction they will get. Thank you.
:49:09. > :49:11.Increased security measures have been in place at the Tall Ships
:49:12. > :49:14.But that hasn't stopped thousands of people enjoying
:49:15. > :49:18.But what are their thoughts on who should captain the country
:49:19. > :49:38.Hello, welcome aboard. It is a glorious day for it. 50,000 people
:49:39. > :49:42.expected through the doors today and we are on board the topsail schooner
:49:43. > :49:49.I am told, one of seven tall ships in the stocks. It is sealed up from
:49:50. > :49:54.Bristol for the bank holiday weekend. And Jack Sparrow from
:49:55. > :50:00.Pirates of the Caribbean is currently engaged in a sword fight.
:50:01. > :50:04.This area has always been a duel between the Conservatives and Labour
:50:05. > :50:08.in with the polls narrowing the undecideds could be crucial so where
:50:09. > :50:19.better than the tall ships Festival to look for the 14 border?
:50:20. > :50:25.And he worked out who your going to vote for? I was conservative but now
:50:26. > :50:30.I am not sure, she is scrapping the I am not sure, she is scrapping the
:50:31. > :50:36.free meals. My son gets a free meals while not sure now. I am a
:50:37. > :50:45.Conservative voter and I will be again. I'm a teacher so I have
:50:46. > :50:53.experienced how bad it has been for local schools to have the budget cut
:50:54. > :50:58.and they will cut them again. I have lived been not pro-Tory. Not
:50:59. > :51:06.pro-Tory at all but Weaver makes more sense to me. Getting a third of
:51:07. > :51:14.the US move them quickly as possible. I am astonished
:51:15. > :51:23.Conservative. James is staunch Labour. Do you get along? We do. We
:51:24. > :51:29.are the best of friends. I think the weights have got some very good
:51:30. > :51:33.points extract we are supporters of good King George III, long may he
:51:34. > :51:41.reign! He is a bit mad but aren't we all nowadays? They will see us
:51:42. > :51:46.through. Only in the West of England. Our thanks to Robin
:51:47. > :51:52.Markwell for bringing us that bit of light relief. Let's talk politics
:51:53. > :51:56.again. Thangam, the polls are narrowing, aren't they? Do you think
:51:57. > :52:02.Mr Corrigan can make it and be in ten Downing St? I don't want to call
:52:03. > :52:06.to go, a week in four days, the to go, a week in four days, the
:52:07. > :52:10.result of play for. What I am finding and what my colleagues are
:52:11. > :52:14.telling me is there is a mixture of things people are concerned about,
:52:15. > :52:18.school cuts, concerned about cuts to the police, the worried about the
:52:19. > :52:20.National Health Service. All of those things have an answer in the
:52:21. > :52:25.Labour manifesto and I'm guessing that is why people are warming to
:52:26. > :52:28.us. They are warming to Mr Corbyn as well but you resigned and would not
:52:29. > :52:32.work with them on the front bench because you thought he was
:52:33. > :52:35.incompetent. Yes and here we are with the great manifesto which I'm
:52:36. > :52:41.fully behind, I'm delighted about it. I did press Karen Smith your
:52:42. > :52:45.colleague on this last week. And you look at me and say aye think Jeremy
:52:46. > :52:49.Corbyn would make a good Prime Minister. I think a Labour Prime
:52:50. > :53:00.Minister will be so much better than a Tory Prime Minister. You can't get
:53:01. > :53:05.the words out. Now you, Simon, this idea of putting up Theresa May and
:53:06. > :53:11.ignoring the conservative brand almost if you like, that seems ill
:53:12. > :53:19.backfired. I have seen no evidence of that. She is the leader of the
:53:20. > :53:22.Conservative Party and Prime Minister of the Conservative
:53:23. > :53:25.government. This is one of the leaflets going through the doors.
:53:26. > :53:30.The word conservative is down there. The word conservative is down there.
:53:31. > :53:32.What I pointed out was when you opened it down there is Theresa May
:53:33. > :53:37.and there were Conservatives with our logo also I think it is very
:53:38. > :53:39.hard to suggest that people in this country would not know the Theresa
:53:40. > :53:45.Conservative Prime Minister. Let me Conservative Prime Minister. Let me
:53:46. > :53:51.now very serious times. We have the now very serious times. We have the
:53:52. > :53:58.difficult job of delivering Brexit. I think the country knows that you
:53:59. > :54:03.want a steadfast reliable tried and tested leader of the country. And
:54:04. > :54:09.not... It is certainly not Mr Farren not... It is certainly not Mr Farren
:54:10. > :54:14.and it is certainly not Mr Corbyn who we know cannot be trusted and
:54:15. > :54:18.security. You cannot be trusted on defence or the economy. Do you
:54:19. > :54:25.accept that the manifesto that Mrs Mary put out in her name, she said
:54:26. > :54:32.it is my manifesto, it is dour, it offers nothing for you to sell on
:54:33. > :54:37.the doorstep. Austerity cuts. I am a parent of three children and when I
:54:38. > :54:38.talked other parents about additional money for education,
:54:39. > :54:41.about making sure that children also about making sure that children also
:54:42. > :54:46.have a free breakfast when they need, that is going down very well.
:54:47. > :54:51.What we have is a sensible deliverable programme of government,
:54:52. > :54:54.delivering on the referendum but proving that we can both Rob our
:54:55. > :55:03.heads and patter tummies at the same time. We have a wider domestic
:55:04. > :55:07.agenda of reform and diving... Let's bring in the Lib Dems. We need
:55:08. > :55:09.strong people in politics but strong people who will stand up to school
:55:10. > :55:13.cuts, stand up to the watering down cuts, stand up to the watering down
:55:14. > :55:17.of funding for National Health Service. If we are having Brexit
:55:18. > :55:19.then what we need is members of Parliament who will stand up to keep
:55:20. > :55:23.the free trade we have had for the free trade we have had for
:55:24. > :55:27.decades rather than risking us crashing out of Europe was no deal
:55:28. > :55:30.and that is really worrying employers in the constituency in
:55:31. > :55:34.Taunton Deane, it is worrying anybody who has a job that is only
:55:35. > :55:39.affected by European trade and those of a kind of strong issues we need
:55:40. > :55:46.to think about. The except Brexit is going to happen? If the majority
:55:47. > :55:51.continues to be in favour of Brexit. We have never seen the deal that was
:55:52. > :55:57.top of it, no one has had a chance to see it let alone vote on it. But
:55:58. > :56:00.what importantly if we are going out of Europe then we have to protect
:56:01. > :56:04.the best that we have with Europe. You keep seeing F, you have not
:56:05. > :56:09.accepted it. You have not accepted the will of the people? We believe
:56:10. > :56:12.that when the deal comes back a first referendum on the deal with
:56:13. > :56:19.the option to remain should be there. Let's bring in any from Ukip.
:56:20. > :56:24.Brexit will happen, so it is job done, you can stand down can't you?
:56:25. > :56:28.Mrs May is a remainder, the Chancellor is a remainder, most of
:56:29. > :56:34.our front bench is a remainder, the chap who wrote the manifesto, now it
:56:35. > :56:38.is not done. I actually agree with Gideon, you need strong members of
:56:39. > :56:41.Parliament up there because I don't believe we are going to get the
:56:42. > :56:46.Brexit the people thought it would get. We have seen back sliding
:56:47. > :56:52.already, the European Court of Human Rights will remain in force until
:56:53. > :56:56.2022. I'm sorry was I talking when you're interrupting? There was only
:56:57. > :57:00.knew what they were voting for, the knew what they were voting for, the
:57:01. > :57:05.wound. There was one question. You want to be in the European Union,
:57:06. > :57:09.yes or no? So when you see you now that people wanted to leave then you
:57:10. > :57:11.don't know. You will see David Cameron and George Osborne crystal
:57:12. > :57:18.clear seniors wanting to leave the single market, or neutered. I wanted
:57:19. > :57:22.about Pope -- public spending. Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party
:57:23. > :57:24.offer for extra bank holidays, what police, feature is in and the rest
:57:25. > :57:28.of it. We are confident that the of it. We are confident that the
:57:29. > :57:34.sums add up and the country we afford it? I have been through the
:57:35. > :57:37.costing stop -- costings document prepared by the Labour Party and
:57:38. > :57:41.we'll how much it'll cost to have the extra police officers and where
:57:42. > :57:45.we will get money from. The costings document is a good document, EIF S
:57:46. > :57:51.have made a few criticisms that we are well of Abbey well I just four,
:57:52. > :57:54.but what they also did they said the Conservative manifesto was barely
:57:55. > :58:00.costed at all and that is the real question here. We don't go as far as
:58:01. > :58:04.the public spending, and as the Institute for Fiscal Studies have
:58:05. > :58:08.said they do not believe the sums add up for Labour conservatives. Our
:58:09. > :58:12.only change in income taxes 1p on the rate of income tax for the
:58:13. > :58:15.health service which people understand, they can see that ring
:58:16. > :58:24.fenced money going to the health service. We must have manifesto that
:58:25. > :58:30.Does your manifesto add up? Of Does your manifesto add up? Of
:58:31. > :58:32.course it does. What EIF S has said is that if you look at the Labour
:58:33. > :58:37.Party manifesto, and what we're trying to do now was encourage
:58:38. > :58:46.business to grow and encourage people to pay and invest. If you are
:58:47. > :58:56.to deliver policies were real mass lies Asian was not costed,... We are
:58:57. > :59:03.just taking franchises back. You would have the highest tax burden
:59:04. > :59:08.for 70 years. The Ukip manifesto is 90% the same in 2015, although have
:59:09. > :59:11.changed. They want politicians with foresight hindsight?
:59:12. > :59:14.We've spoken to all the main parties on Sunday Politics over
:59:15. > :59:17.But there are independent and minor party candidates standing in just
:59:18. > :59:21.Martin Jones has been to meet some of them.
:59:22. > :59:29.A warning - his report does contain a man in a pink leotard.
:59:30. > :59:35.Vote for the monster raving loony party. Driving the message home,
:59:36. > :59:40.comedy candidate making a serious point. Disabled firefighter George
:59:41. > :59:46.standing for the monster raving loony party. And raising money for
:59:47. > :59:53.behind him it is all coming from his behind him it is all coming from his
:59:54. > :59:57.own pocket. Will cost me eight or ?900 but do you spend it in ?100 on
:59:58. > :00:06.a weeks holiday something? I don't know. I'm having three weeks fun. It
:00:07. > :00:08.Nonvoters vote for the monster Nonvoters vote for the monster
:00:09. > :00:15.raving with a party. Your vote counts. With no team to help
:00:16. > :00:19.canvassing is a slow and lonely job. In Bristol and other one-man
:00:20. > :00:23.campaign but with naked ambition. campaign but with naked ambition.
:00:24. > :00:28.Former adult film producer John Langley protesting after being
:00:29. > :00:32.barred from a women's hustings. It is quite fun to be an independent
:00:33. > :00:36.candidate, I am now dressed like this. The only thing I am short of
:00:37. > :00:40.its high heels but I did not want to make myself look stupid. It is tough
:00:41. > :00:46.being an independent when you're not being invited to speak at some of
:00:47. > :00:53.the hustings. After all there is no such thing as bad publicity. It is
:00:54. > :00:57.also vital for independents to explain the ideas. Especially
:00:58. > :01:01.radical ones. And he ever heard of a research-based economy? He money
:01:02. > :01:06.free party believes in a research-based economy, world
:01:07. > :01:11.without money or work. But it is a real job getting the message across.
:01:12. > :01:14.You at the man who is claiming that you're going to get rid of all money
:01:15. > :01:19.and have an offer everyone. You're telling me... In a monopoly -based
:01:20. > :01:24.system you cannot allow what he wants to get through. Even if you
:01:25. > :01:28.don't believe in money you still need ?500 for the deposit. I
:01:29. > :01:34.borrowed that from my parents, that money there. I haven't got spare
:01:35. > :01:38.cash lying about for such a investment as that so I said to him
:01:39. > :01:41.if I can borrowed of you I will pay it back in instalments and I want
:01:42. > :01:48.deposit. So you got some free money? deposit. So you got some free money?
:01:49. > :01:51.It is debt -based. While independents may face an uphill
:01:52. > :01:54.struggle, no one can see all struggle, no one can see all
:01:55. > :01:55.candidates are the same. Makes you proud to be British.
:01:56. > :01:59.My thanks to my guests Simon Hoare, Thangam Debbonaire, Gideon Amos
:02:00. > :02:04.re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.
:02:05. > :02:18.Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election
:02:19. > :02:26.campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.
:02:27. > :02:29.Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is
:02:30. > :02:36.that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who
:02:37. > :02:40.do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only
:02:41. > :02:44.be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters
:02:45. > :02:51.this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about
:02:52. > :02:57.Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,
:02:58. > :03:00.is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the
:03:01. > :03:05.tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech
:03:06. > :03:10.last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin
:03:11. > :03:15.analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I
:03:16. > :03:24.think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack
:03:25. > :03:27.just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister
:03:28. > :03:32.has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,
:03:33. > :03:40.it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic
:03:41. > :03:47.attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You
:03:48. > :03:51.raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader
:03:52. > :03:55.argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two
:03:56. > :04:00.courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation
:04:01. > :04:06.about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.
:04:07. > :04:14.You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign
:04:15. > :04:18.by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by
:04:19. > :04:22.politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a
:04:23. > :04:29.divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue
:04:30. > :04:34.that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply
:04:35. > :04:41.unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me
:04:42. > :04:48.does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic
:04:49. > :04:54.event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue
:04:55. > :05:01.that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political
:05:02. > :05:06.battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a
:05:07. > :05:13.tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree
:05:14. > :05:17.or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a
:05:18. > :05:23.time to review the level of argument? This is a political
:05:24. > :05:26.debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and
:05:27. > :05:32.about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We
:05:33. > :05:40.mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when
:05:41. > :05:43.we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a
:05:44. > :05:49.lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do
:05:50. > :05:54.you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that
:05:55. > :05:58.suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,
:05:59. > :06:02.which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.
:06:03. > :06:06.Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to
:06:07. > :06:14.grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power
:06:15. > :06:20.Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And
:06:21. > :06:25.not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another
:06:26. > :06:30.example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David
:06:31. > :06:34.Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now
:06:35. > :06:40.heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I
:06:41. > :06:46.personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the
:06:47. > :06:50.major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of
:06:51. > :06:54.terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate
:06:55. > :06:58.terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be
:06:59. > :07:02.supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an
:07:03. > :07:06.election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the
:07:07. > :07:10.Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a
:07:11. > :07:17.great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that
:07:18. > :07:22.will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole
:07:23. > :07:26.point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not
:07:27. > :07:29.quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less
:07:30. > :07:34.impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just
:07:35. > :07:39.repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They
:07:40. > :07:43.like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we
:07:44. > :07:46.see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting
:07:47. > :07:51.to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are
:07:52. > :07:58.asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will
:07:59. > :08:08.that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in
:08:09. > :08:12.terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why
:08:13. > :08:19.she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will
:08:20. > :08:23.absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is
:08:24. > :08:29.a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65
:08:30. > :08:36.million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.
:08:37. > :08:40.It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you
:08:41. > :08:45.think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they
:08:46. > :08:51.will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls
:08:52. > :08:56.and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to
:08:57. > :09:02.get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on
:09:03. > :09:05.one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume
:09:06. > :09:09.that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable
:09:10. > :09:14.campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.
:09:15. > :09:21.On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.
:09:22. > :09:25.Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the
:09:26. > :09:30.Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have
:09:31. > :09:35.had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.
:09:36. > :09:39.Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home
:09:40. > :09:43.Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home
:09:44. > :09:48.office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government
:09:49. > :09:52.has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in
:09:53. > :09:55.additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in
:09:56. > :10:01.the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You
:10:02. > :10:06.voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on
:10:07. > :10:11.that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.
:10:12. > :10:13.We are making good progress with the companies who put in place
:10:14. > :10:20.encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.
:10:21. > :10:24.I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same
:10:25. > :10:30.hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The
:10:31. > :10:35.hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,
:10:36. > :10:42.you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the
:10:43. > :10:45.views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my
:10:46. > :10:52.hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of
:10:53. > :10:56.how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides
:10:57. > :11:01.talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election
:11:02. > :11:07.debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it
:11:08. > :11:10.and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm
:11:11. > :11:16.glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane
:11:17. > :11:22.Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage
:11:23. > :11:27.votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that
:11:28. > :11:33.legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they
:11:34. > :11:44.are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I
:11:45. > :11:49.did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good.
:11:50. > :12:01.That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it
:12:02. > :12:07.seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault
:12:08. > :12:10.of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which
:12:11. > :12:14.the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would
:12:15. > :12:19.imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my
:12:20. > :12:22.judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would
:12:23. > :12:29.be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and
:12:30. > :12:36.performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the
:12:37. > :12:44.economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I
:12:45. > :12:48.don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd
:12:49. > :12:52.is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be
:12:53. > :12:57.debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the
:12:58. > :13:01.electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like
:13:02. > :13:05.to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking
:13:06. > :13:11.forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the
:13:12. > :13:18.week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our
:13:19. > :13:22.guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil
:13:23. > :13:29.will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday.
:13:30. > :13:33.That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a
:13:34. > :14:08.very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye.
:14:09. > :14:11.As voters prepare to go to the polls to choose who represents them
:14:12. > :14:21.the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me for the Andrew Neil Interviews.
:14:22. > :14:22.One minute to get the food on the plate.
:14:23. > :14:27...team them up with a Michelin starred chef,
:14:28. > :14:28.putting their reputation on the line.
:14:29. > :14:35...which team will have the recipe for success?
:14:36. > :14:38.One minute to get the food on the plate.