05/11/2017

0:00:38 > 0:00:41Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:41 > 0:00:42I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:42 > 0:00:45And this is your guide to everything that's happening in the world

0:00:45 > 0:00:46of politics this Sunday morning.

0:00:46 > 0:00:50On today's show:

0:00:50 > 0:00:52Theresa May's right-hand man Damian Green has denied claims that

0:00:52 > 0:00:59police found pornography on a computer in his office in 2008.

0:00:59 > 0:01:02He says the allegations by a former police chief are "political smears."

0:01:02 > 0:01:04With claims of sexual harassment at Westminster growing by the day,

0:01:04 > 0:01:07can either Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

0:01:07 > 0:01:09to grips with a scandal threatening to engulf

0:01:09 > 0:01:13the entire political class?

0:01:13 > 0:01:19We'll ask a minister and senior member of the Shadow Cabinet.

0:01:19 > 0:01:24And some on the left of politics have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:24 > 0:01:25In the West:

0:01:25 > 0:01:27Life on the streets, a new law offers more help

0:01:27 > 0:01:30to people sleeping rough,

0:01:30 > 0:01:33but will be government put in enough cash to make a difference?

0:01:46 > 0:01:48So there's plenty of explosive political news

0:01:48 > 0:01:50to get you in the mood for bonfire night -

0:01:50 > 0:01:52and with me as usual, three journalists who know quite

0:01:52 > 0:01:55a bit about parliamentary plots - if rather less about

0:01:55 > 0:01:56gunpowder and treason.

0:01:56 > 0:01:58It's Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

0:01:58 > 0:02:02So what are the big political stories making the news this Sunday?

0:02:02 > 0:02:10Well, the papers are brimming with further allegations against MPs

0:02:10 > 0:02:12in the sexual harassment scandal, which according to one newspaper has

0:02:12 > 0:02:14left Westminster frozen in fear.

0:02:14 > 0:02:16First Secretary of State Damian Green, already under

0:02:16 > 0:02:18investigation over allegations - which he strongly denies -

0:02:18 > 0:02:21of propositioning a female activist, is the subject of new claims that

0:02:21 > 0:02:23police discovered pornography on a computer in his Westminster

0:02:23 > 0:02:24office in 2008.

0:02:24 > 0:02:27Mr Green denies the allegation, made by former senior

0:02:27 > 0:02:29police officer Bob Quick, saying it is "completely untrue,"

0:02:29 > 0:02:37and adding that he is the victim of disreputable "political smears."

0:02:37 > 0:02:39Michael Fallon, who resigned as Defence Secretary this week

0:02:39 > 0:02:41over his past behaviour, is also subject to fresh claims

0:02:41 > 0:02:47he lunged at a female journalist in 2003 after a lunch.

0:02:47 > 0:02:49Labour is facing questions over its handling of sexual

0:02:49 > 0:02:56misconduct allegations.

0:02:56 > 0:02:59This morning Shadow Cabinet minister Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

0:02:59 > 0:03:01on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew about alleged misconduct by MP

0:03:01 > 0:03:09Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted to the Shadow Cabinet.

0:03:09 > 0:03:12And there is a reminder that normal political life goes on,

0:03:12 > 0:03:15with reports that the Cabinet has agreed to put housing at the heart

0:03:15 > 0:03:16of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

0:03:16 > 0:03:18Well, let's hear from Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

0:03:18 > 0:03:21she was on the Andrew Marr Show earlier talking about the claims

0:03:21 > 0:03:24against her Cabinet colleague Damian Green.

0:03:24 > 0:03:30Absolutely not. I think it is something that will take place in

0:03:30 > 0:03:35terms of clearing out Westminster of that sort of behaviour, and I think

0:03:35 > 0:03:37that Westminster afterwards, including the Government, will be

0:03:37 > 0:03:46better for it. When we are confident that men and women can work any

0:03:46 > 0:03:49respectful environment and people on the receiving end of abuse of power

0:03:49 > 0:03:55can come forward. That will be a positive thing.

0:03:55 > 0:03:59Let's see what our panel make of this fairly explosive week. Good

0:03:59 > 0:04:06morning to all of you. Starting with you, Steve. Not a party political

0:04:06 > 0:04:10issue but the Tories are in Government. How much harder for them

0:04:10 > 0:04:14is it an Labour?Always harder when you are in Government because it

0:04:14 > 0:04:18makes governing almost impossible. And the wider context is a Prime

0:04:18 > 0:04:21Minister who lost her overall majority a few months ago and

0:04:21 > 0:04:24actually that is the context of everything. When you are having to

0:04:24 > 0:04:27deal with the scandal of such unpredictability, where the

0:04:27 > 0:04:39terms are so imprecise, it is a "lunge", a resignation issue, to use

0:04:39 > 0:04:42that term, and nightmare. I don't think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

0:04:42 > 0:04:48bring down governments, but it makes governing for Theresa May a form of

0:04:48 > 0:04:51political health.Isabel Oakeshott, Damian Green has denied all

0:04:51 > 0:04:55allegations made against him, but there are more this morning. He is

0:04:55 > 0:05:00being investigated by the Cabinet Office at the moment. If Theresa May

0:05:00 > 0:05:04were to effectively lose her Deputy Prime Minister, has serious without

0:05:04 > 0:05:09the?I think very serious indeed. I think it is very significant and

0:05:09 > 0:05:12strange he was not defended in the Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

0:05:12 > 0:05:16clip we saw today, she didn't say I am certain he will survive, and I am

0:05:16 > 0:05:21beginning to feel that Damian may not survive this. We don't know

0:05:21 > 0:05:24whether it is the last of the allegations that may come out in

0:05:24 > 0:05:28relation to him. It seems to me that the allegations were previously of a

0:05:28 > 0:05:34rather minor order, but this seems to have escalated. And I think one

0:05:34 > 0:05:37of the big problems for Theresa May, and there are the many at the

0:05:37 > 0:05:43moment, for months we have been saying that this Government has no

0:05:43 > 0:05:46bandwidth to do anything except Brexit and right now she can't even

0:05:46 > 0:05:50do Brexit. What is the point of it all?It is important to make clear

0:05:50 > 0:05:54not only that Damian Green denies all of these allegations, but the

0:05:54 > 0:06:00computer mentioned was in a shared office so there is no reason it

0:06:00 > 0:06:04would definitely be his # No guarantee it would definitely

0:06:04 > 0:06:16be his. But we have had two MPs on television this morning, Anna

0:06:16 > 0:06:21Soubry, saying he should stand down. There is an awful lot going on here.

0:06:21 > 0:06:27It is not just a pretty awful sexual harassment scandal. There are also

0:06:27 > 0:06:31without a doubt MPs, police officers, going about settling

0:06:31 > 0:06:36scores. For me I have to say for our pretty discredited police officer

0:06:36 > 0:06:40Bob Quick, to make accusations against serving Cabinet minister, to

0:06:40 > 0:06:47suggest he should go for extreme pornography on computers he may or

0:06:47 > 0:06:50may not have known, it may be extremely distasteful but it is

0:06:50 > 0:06:53alarming for democracy to have ex-police officers like this coming

0:06:53 > 0:06:57in and trying to play with democracy. Some politicians are also

0:06:57 > 0:07:00meeting claims, some for the right reasons to get the allegations out

0:07:00 > 0:07:04there and so on but others for their own agendas and all of this puts the

0:07:04 > 0:07:08Prime Minister in an unbelievably hard situation. I agree with Steve

0:07:08 > 0:07:11and Isabel, she desperately needs two show leadership in all this, but

0:07:11 > 0:07:14every way she could turn there are incredible downfalls, people blaming

0:07:14 > 0:07:19her for trying to get to the bottom of all this. It is very people who

0:07:19 > 0:07:23she is relying on for her leadership, the very Tory MPs the

0:07:23 > 0:07:26support she can't lose.It is not just the Tory party and of course

0:07:26 > 0:07:30Jeremy Corbyn will be making a speech later today where this will

0:07:30 > 0:07:33inevitably and there are accusations about how the senior leadership in

0:07:33 > 0:07:39the Labour Party have handled this. What about that situation?Yes, but

0:07:39 > 0:07:41the Government is much harder because you are meant to be doing

0:07:41 > 0:07:4510,000 other things at the same time. This is about a deregulated

0:07:45 > 0:07:49work environment. For all those who say, I hate the way Britain is too

0:07:49 > 0:07:52regulated, this is what happens in a deregulated work environment. The

0:07:52 > 0:08:02House of Commons has no HR or whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

0:08:02 > 0:08:04actually don't have much power but they do have power over who the

0:08:04 > 0:08:08point and how to treat them. I think this is the way forward in terms of

0:08:08 > 0:08:11the practical outcome, but it is across the political spectrum.But

0:08:11 > 0:08:17it is unclear what it will be. Can the party sort this out?I'm not

0:08:17 > 0:08:20sure I entirely agree, Steve, you cannot regulate all human

0:08:20 > 0:08:25interaction and a lot of these stories have been about interactions

0:08:25 > 0:08:29between politicians and journalists alike, who have gone out for lunch,

0:08:29 > 0:08:35chosen to drink, presumably to create an informal atmosphere, and

0:08:35 > 0:08:39at what point is a step towards somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

0:08:39 > 0:08:44the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You can't regulate that sort of thing.

0:08:44 > 0:08:49Throughout the programme will come back to some of these things and how

0:08:49 > 0:08:51they might be regulated.

0:08:51 > 0:08:53Now, the Home Secretary has also today been talking

0:08:53 > 0:08:56about what she calls the "moral duty" of social media companies

0:08:56 > 0:08:58to stop child sexual exploitation, ahead of a meeting with her US

0:08:58 > 0:09:00counterparts this week.

0:09:00 > 0:09:02We're joined now by the Home Office minister Sarah Newton -

0:09:02 > 0:09:04she's in our Truro studio.

0:09:04 > 0:09:07Thanks very much for coming in to speak the first night. I want to

0:09:07 > 0:09:11talk to you about the Government's efforts to tackle child pornography,

0:09:11 > 0:09:14but let's pick up on some of the sexual harassment issues at

0:09:14 > 0:09:18Westminster first. Two of your parliamentary colleagues this

0:09:18 > 0:09:21morning saying they think the first Secretary of State Damian Green

0:09:21 > 0:09:27should step down whilst being investigated. Do you agree?Look, he

0:09:27 > 0:09:33has vigorously denied these accusations, and the Cabinet Office

0:09:33 > 0:09:38is investigating these accusations, so we do have processes for when

0:09:38 > 0:09:41ministers have these accusations made against them so they are

0:09:41 > 0:09:45properly investigated. And that is what is going on at the moment.Is

0:09:45 > 0:09:50that process people can be confident in? He is effectively being

0:09:50 > 0:09:56investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one of his colleagues.This is a tried

0:09:56 > 0:10:01and tested process that has stood the test of time, and it is

0:10:01 > 0:10:04important...Has it? Surely what we are learning is it has not stood the

0:10:04 > 0:10:07test of time and that in fact allegations like this have been

0:10:07 > 0:10:11swept under the carpet and ignored for years and years in Westminster,

0:10:11 > 0:10:16exactly what we are learning right now.I think you are conflating two

0:10:16 > 0:10:19things they are, and what we really do need to do is look at the whole

0:10:19 > 0:10:23range of allegations people have been making, and make sure

0:10:23 > 0:10:27Parliament is a safe place for people to work, a respectful

0:10:27 > 0:10:33environment for people who have been subjected to harassment or bullying

0:10:33 > 0:10:35or inappropriate behaviour, so that they feel confident to come forward

0:10:35 > 0:10:40knowing they will be listened to, that there will be an open and

0:10:40 > 0:10:42transparent and fair to everyone concerned process for getting to the

0:10:42 > 0:10:47bottom of it, and that is exactly what the Prime Minister and the

0:10:47 > 0:10:52Leader of the Cows have set out, Prime Minister's meeting with all

0:10:52 > 0:10:57the leaders of the parties tomorrow to set out a proper process so we

0:10:57 > 0:11:05can modernise the work environment at Westminster -- leader of the

0:11:05 > 0:11:09House have set out.You think Damian Green should remain in the Cabinet

0:11:09 > 0:11:15well being investigated?That will be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

0:11:15 > 0:11:19thinks the misdemeanours have a basis, that he should stand aside,

0:11:19 > 0:11:24that will be the recommendation. I will not second the inquiry on what

0:11:24 > 0:11:28Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.You were in the Whips' Office yourself for a

0:11:28 > 0:11:32year. And much has been said this week of the whips being in receipt

0:11:32 > 0:11:36of a lot of information about bad behaviour, and instead of reporting

0:11:36 > 0:11:40it to authorities they were using it as ammunition. Was that your

0:11:40 > 0:11:47experience?Absolutely not. I was at the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

0:11:47 > 0:11:50yes, I heard about the rumours of a black spreadsheet, and I can

0:11:50 > 0:11:54certainly say I never saw such a thing. How I went about my business

0:11:54 > 0:11:58as a whip is really twofold. It is quite a technical job in many ways,

0:11:58 > 0:12:05about of the Government through the House, working with the House

0:12:05 > 0:12:08authorities, the opposition. Also... Did you ever hear rumours of these

0:12:08 > 0:12:16people's bad behaviour?Sorry?Did you ever hear rumours of MPs

0:12:16 > 0:12:19misbehaving, sexual harassment, allegations are that?If anybody had

0:12:19 > 0:12:24brought a complaint to me about the behaviour of one of the MPs who were

0:12:24 > 0:12:28in my flock, I would take that really seriously, but bull-mac, that

0:12:28 > 0:12:32didn't happen.You said nobody brought you a complaint. Did you

0:12:32 > 0:12:38hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't happen.About the members of my

0:12:38 > 0:12:42flock? Absolutely not.Is that the MPs you were specifically in charge

0:12:42 > 0:12:48of?I did not have that experience at all.Let's move on and talk about

0:12:48 > 0:12:52the Home Secretary's trip to Washington this week, where she will

0:12:52 > 0:12:55urge tech companies to go further and faster on online child abuse. We

0:12:55 > 0:12:59have heard a lot from this Government urging these companies to

0:12:59 > 0:13:03do something. One specific ideas of what they could do, do you have a

0:13:03 > 0:13:06clear idea of what you are asking from tech companies?Absolutely

0:13:06 > 0:13:12right. As you know, this horrendous crime of child sexual exploitation

0:13:12 > 0:13:17and grooming is constantly evolving as the opportunities for the

0:13:17 > 0:13:22perpetrators arise. They are now using live streaming, different

0:13:22 > 0:13:26sorts of platforms, which are largely controlled by the big

0:13:26 > 0:13:30companies in America. What we really want them to do is to step up and

0:13:30 > 0:13:35use their huge expertise, used the huge money they have got, to help

0:13:35 > 0:13:40find technological solutions to read their sites and rid the opportunity

0:13:40 > 0:13:43of these paedophiles to be able to groom young people. We need the

0:13:43 > 0:13:50politicians in America to exert pressure, as well as other

0:13:50 > 0:13:53companies, because these are global problems. We are not going to solve

0:13:53 > 0:13:57this problem in the UK alone. We have made a lot of progress, working

0:13:57 > 0:14:01with Facebook and other companies as well, but we really need to keep one

0:14:01 > 0:14:06step ahead of the technology, one step ahead of the perpetrators, who

0:14:06 > 0:14:12are using these opportunities to commit horrendous crimes.

0:14:12 > 0:14:16It was back in 2014 Theresa May for the Internet companies to do more in

0:14:16 > 0:14:20terms of child abuse online and we have not seen significant action,

0:14:20 > 0:14:23and it does not appear these kind of calls from the Government actually

0:14:23 > 0:14:28make difference. Well, at the moment we are seeing

0:14:28 > 0:14:33the police being able to make about 400 arrests per month, about 500

0:14:33 > 0:14:37children being safeguarded. The Government itself is investing a lot

0:14:37 > 0:14:43of money in new technology like the project Arachnid, and making sure

0:14:43 > 0:14:47the police have the specialist resources they need to go

0:14:47 > 0:14:49undercover, and absolutely find these perpetrators and bring them to

0:14:49 > 0:14:52justice, but we do need to constantly have the engagement and

0:14:52 > 0:14:57support of the companies themselves to invest in further technologies to

0:14:57 > 0:15:00prevent this from happening. As you say, we have made progress but we

0:15:00 > 0:15:05need to see yet more.Sarah Newton, thank you very much for speaking to

0:15:05 > 0:15:07us today.

0:15:07 > 0:15:09Michael Fallon's decision to resign this week,

0:15:09 > 0:15:14saying his past conduct with women fell short of the standard expected

0:15:14 > 0:15:16of the Armed Forces, led to something of a minor reshuffle.

0:15:16 > 0:15:18And the Prime Minister took Westminster by surprise

0:15:18 > 0:15:20when she announced his replacement, former Chief Whip and relative

0:15:20 > 0:15:22newcomer to the ministerial ranks, Gavin Williamson.

0:15:22 > 0:15:27Here he is speaking on the day of his appointment.

0:15:27 > 0:15:29It's an immense privilege to have been appointed Secretary

0:15:29 > 0:15:32of State for Defence, and what we need to be doing

0:15:32 > 0:15:34is continuing to focus on countering Daesh,

0:15:34 > 0:15:37making sure that our national security is at the forefront

0:15:37 > 0:15:39of everything that we do, and we have some of the world's

0:15:39 > 0:15:42greatest armed services, and it's such a privilege to be able

0:15:42 > 0:15:48to work with them.

0:15:48 > 0:15:51Gavin Williamson, who you saw there, arrives at the Ministry of Defence

0:15:51 > 0:15:53at a challenging time for UK defence.

0:15:53 > 0:15:55The Government has promised an above-inflation increase

0:15:55 > 0:15:57in spending every year but the Ministry of Defence

0:15:57 > 0:15:59is already committed to finding £20 billion of savings

0:15:59 > 0:16:00over the next ten years.

0:16:00 > 0:16:02The Cabinet Office is currently conducting a security review

0:16:02 > 0:16:05which will look at military capabilities and funding up to 2022,

0:16:05 > 0:16:06while there are continuing reports of shortages

0:16:06 > 0:16:11of manpower and equipment.

0:16:11 > 0:16:14And if Labour were to win power, questions persist over

0:16:14 > 0:16:16what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership would mean for defence budget

0:16:16 > 0:16:18and the traditional cornerstones of UK defence policy

0:16:18 > 0:16:19like Trident and Nato.

0:16:19 > 0:16:21Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:21 > 0:16:24secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:24 > 0:16:26Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:26 > 0:16:32secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:32 > 0:16:37Let's talk about defence spending first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:37 > 0:16:40same thing this Government has which is an above inflation increase in

0:16:40 > 0:16:45spending every year?We've been absolutely clear about that. First

0:16:45 > 0:16:50and foremost we'd meet our commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:50 > 0:16:56of GDP on defence as is our Nato commitment and we would match the

0:16:56 > 0:16:59Government's year-on-year 0.5% increase above inflation. This is

0:16:59 > 0:17:03really important. Labour's always had a good strong track record of

0:17:03 > 0:17:06spending on defence.Jeremy Corbyn seems to have a different view.

0:17:06 > 0:17:11Speaking at a protest in 2010 he said Labour wanted to fight all the

0:17:11 > 0:17:15cuts except those in the Armed Forces where we want to see a few

0:17:15 > 0:17:20more cuts taking place. He doesn't seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:20 > 0:17:25In the manifesto for this year's election, 2017, he and John

0:17:25 > 0:17:28McDonnell have been absolutely clear we support the exact words I've been

0:17:28 > 0:17:34using now, at least 2% of the spend of GDP spent on defence.Jeremy

0:17:34 > 0:17:38Corbyn's changed his mind on that? He's been very clear about that and

0:17:38 > 0:17:43it was in our manifesto this year. You criticised the Government on

0:17:43 > 0:17:49whether they meet their 2% commitment on defence. You saying

0:17:49 > 0:17:52they were fiddling the figures because they were including

0:17:52 > 0:17:57pensions. You would strip that out and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:57 > 0:18:00on defence which doesn't include pensions?Technically, the

0:18:00 > 0:18:02Government would argue you are allowed to include pensions by the

0:18:02 > 0:18:08Nato rules. But we've been very clear, really, when you're talking

0:18:08 > 0:18:12about defence spending it should mean defence. When you look at the

0:18:12 > 0:18:18last year of the Labour Government we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

0:18:18 > 0:18:23very much committed to looking at what we need in our defence budget

0:18:23 > 0:18:27and looking to the problems they have now where they can't meet the

0:18:27 > 0:18:32commitments they've made.You would sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:32 > 0:18:37In order to live up to these commitments you have to find an

0:18:37 > 0:18:41extra billion for the defence budgets because we're not

0:18:41 > 0:18:45calculating pensions anymore?John McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:45 > 0:18:49are doing. Putting in the conflict resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:49 > 0:18:54kept separate. He is well aware of the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:54 > 0:18:58are certainly very committed to a defence budget that really does make

0:18:58 > 0:19:03a difference.I'm not clear whether you're telling me it will be 2% 69

0:19:03 > 0:19:09spending, excluding pensions?We want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:09 > 0:19:13way Labour always calculate it had up until 2010, not including

0:19:13 > 0:19:18pensions.A significant increase in military spending?We are talking

0:19:18 > 0:19:22about making sure the spending we need is there because, at the

0:19:22 > 0:19:25current situation, we have with the current Government, they are

0:19:25 > 0:19:31overstretched. Even the very caution National Audit Office says they are

0:19:31 > 0:19:36at immense risk of not being able to meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:36 > 0:19:41they have made. Others talk about a black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:41 > 0:19:48£20 billion. There is a real issue we have to address.To you know what

0:19:48 > 0:19:53it will cost, how muchedingsal funds will have to be found?We have to

0:19:53 > 0:19:59rook at what are the needs at the time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:59 > 0:20:02make that 2% commitment not including things which have just

0:20:02 > 0:20:06been brushed in now by the Conservative Government.Let's move

0:20:06 > 0:20:12on to a different aspect of defence. There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:12 > 0:20:16weapons opened at the UN for signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:16 > 0:20:21already signed it. Would an incoming Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:21 > 0:20:24The important point here is there was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:24 > 0:20:29there to be observers from the UK. There should have been at that

0:20:29 > 0:20:35treaty talks.That doesn't change the calculation whether or not an

0:20:35 > 0:20:41incoming Labour Government would sign that treaty?We are committed

0:20:41 > 0:20:46to a strong multi-lateral disarming programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:46 > 0:20:50missing.This is a multilateral approach to try to get rid of

0:20:50 > 0:20:55nuclear weapons. What you say you want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:55 > 0:20:59that treaty?You we have to look at how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:59 > 0:21:02somebody clear we want to de-escalate tensions across the

0:21:02 > 0:21:07world. Work with other nuclear partners to help stop the

0:21:07 > 0:21:11proliferation of nuclear weapons. We want to work with those countries

0:21:11 > 0:21:17who feel very strongly about the treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:17 > 0:21:23have to do that in a multilateral framework.This is a multi-lateral

0:21:23 > 0:21:27disarmament framework. Under the auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:27 > 0:21:31else it could be organised. This is a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:31 > 0:21:36have been a lifelong campaigner for disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:36 > 0:21:41will be the first nuclear power to do so, sign it and lead the way.We

0:21:41 > 0:21:46need to use our position to be responsible and call for responsible

0:21:46 > 0:21:49multi-lateral disarmamentment there was progress made on this in the

0:21:49 > 0:21:52eighties and nineties with considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:52 > 0:21:56to one side and destroyed. We need to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:56 > 0:21:59I don't see any presence by the UK Government at the moment on that

0:21:59 > 0:22:05aagain da. It is not helpful for the nukes leer nations to be separated

0:22:05 > 0:22:10from the non-nuclear nation in the these debates.That's why I don't

0:22:10 > 0:22:15understand why you're not taking the opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:15 > 0:22:18Government would Take The Stand.We should wok together and we should

0:22:18 > 0:22:23use our position as a nuclear power to work for a multilateral

0:22:23 > 0:22:27disarmament programme.You were very clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:27 > 0:22:31Labour Party would keep Trident for the meantime.Abs will yously.We

0:22:31 > 0:22:34know throughout his life, Jeremy Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:34 > 0:22:41it. He signed up to the manifesto saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:41 > 0:22:46changed his minds?The important thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:46 > 0:22:50Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to. We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:50 > 0:22:55is the Labour Party position. Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:55 > 0:22:58Leader really believes in that position?He believes in democracy

0:22:58 > 0:23:02in the party. That is the Labour Party position. I don't see that

0:23:02 > 0:23:06position changing at all. He has said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:06 > 0:23:10that is our Labour Party position. And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:10 > 0:23:14stood on and will continue to stand on.I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:14 > 0:23:19sexual harassment in Westminster. It is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:19 > 0:23:23Party as the Conservative. It was not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:23 > 0:23:26your colleague on The Andrew Marr Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:26 > 0:23:31whether or not the leadership knew about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:31 > 0:23:35Do you know?I absolutely do not know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:35 > 0:23:37why there has to be an investigation. It is extremely

0:23:37 > 0:23:42important to find out what the allegations were, exactly what

0:23:42 > 0:23:47happened, who was told and who told what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:47 > 0:23:52position to see what the situation is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:52 > 0:23:58has been suspended which is the cricket thing to do.Rosie Winterton

0:23:58 > 0:24:03has been outspoken about what she let the leadership know. If it is

0:24:03 > 0:24:06the case the leadership did know about these allegations should he

0:24:06 > 0:24:11have been put into the Shadow Cabinet?The real question is who

0:24:11 > 0:24:17did know what when.But what I'm asking you is...I am anot going to

0:24:17 > 0:24:21speculate whether there was an if or whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:21 > 0:24:25information was transmitted. Was it put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:25 > 0:24:29who was told what, when. Until we have a full investigation it would

0:24:29 > 0:24:33be inappropriate to comment. What is absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:33 > 0:24:37this right for the future. We must have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:37 > 0:24:42with incidents as and when they occur. And we deal with them

0:24:42 > 0:24:45prepperly in a way which gets to the bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:45 > 0:24:50it properly.Why should anyone have confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:50 > 0:24:55treat issues that seriously when, firstly there's a question whether

0:24:55 > 0:24:59they knew about Kelvin hop kips and others have been dissuaded from

0:24:59 > 0:25:04making complaints. Knots just Bex Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:25:04 > 0:25:09was harassed at a party senior figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:09 > 0:25:16it was her own fault. It seems as if there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:16 > 0:25:21Labour to make a complaint.That's why we're having a thorough review

0:25:21 > 0:25:26of procedures. We brought in new procedures in July. We need to

0:25:26 > 0:25:31ensure there's a proper helpline available. We are appointing an

0:25:31 > 0:25:34independent organisation which will deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:34 > 0:25:37nobody has to go to somebody they think might know other people, be

0:25:37 > 0:25:43friends with other people. They can go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:43 > 0:25:47and private. These are often things you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:47 > 0:25:51friends about. We will appoint that organisation and make sure people

0:25:51 > 0:25:56can go there and access to it is made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:56 > 0:25:59important when people come into a job, they know if anything does

0:25:59 > 0:26:03happen, they will be able to complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:26:03 > 0:26:09party members or working in Westminster.Thank you for talking

0:26:09 > 0:26:09to us

0:26:09 > 0:26:11For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:11 > 0:26:13on the left of politics,

0:26:13 > 0:26:15this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:15 > 0:26:17to mark the anniversary of the failed gunpowder

0:26:17 > 0:26:20plot here in Britain, but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:20 > 0:26:22ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries led by Lenin seized power

0:26:22 > 0:26:24and ushered in seven decades of Communist rule.

0:26:24 > 0:26:26For critics, that's something to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:26 > 0:26:28Elizabeth Glinka went to one event in London to find out more.

0:26:32 > 0:26:34The 7th November 1917.

0:26:34 > 0:26:38Red Guards under the leadership of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:38 > 0:26:43Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:43 > 0:26:46This uprising, known popularly as Red October

0:26:46 > 0:26:48because of the difference in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:48 > 0:26:51was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:51 > 0:26:55The winds of socialist change had been blowing for some time.

0:26:55 > 0:27:00The Tsars had resisted reform and millions toiled in a state

0:27:00 > 0:27:03of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:03 > 0:27:06Then war.

0:27:06 > 0:27:11Nearly two million Russians would die.

0:27:11 > 0:27:16The revolution had really begun nine months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:16 > 0:27:22The world's first socialist republic was declared.

0:27:22 > 0:27:25October, well that was the Bolsheviks

0:27:25 > 0:27:29asserting their authority.

0:27:31 > 0:27:34A hundred years on, as this event at the TUC shows,

0:27:34 > 0:27:38there's still plenty of people who want to remember and even

0:27:38 > 0:27:41celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:41 > 0:27:44Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:44 > 0:27:47this is an example of historical development in action,

0:27:47 > 0:27:50the ability of people to club together and be able to affect

0:27:50 > 0:27:52the discourse of history.

0:27:52 > 0:27:54It was people's first attempt at trying to build socialism.

0:27:54 > 0:27:57Although there were many terrible things that happened,

0:27:57 > 0:27:59I think we have to try and draw from experience.

0:27:59 > 0:28:02Jeremy Corbyn's close friend and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:28:02 > 0:28:05was chairing the opening session.

0:28:05 > 0:28:08He didn't want to talk to us but we did manage to speak

0:28:08 > 0:28:14to the daughter of one of the most famous Communists of all time.

0:28:14 > 0:28:17TRANSLATION:It's an historic moment

0:28:17 > 0:28:20which opened up possibilities for further changes

0:28:20 > 0:28:22and allowed other people to strive for a different world.

0:28:22 > 0:28:26A world, which it seems, some are still keen to push for.

0:28:26 > 0:28:28We're growing, so there is obviously a positive reflection.

0:28:28 > 0:28:31There is a lot of negative propaganda that comes

0:28:31 > 0:28:33from the Cold War period.

0:28:33 > 0:28:35It is harder to talk to older people maybe.

0:28:35 > 0:28:37But younger people are quite receptive.

0:28:37 > 0:28:40The events and discussions taking place here today cover a whole range

0:28:40 > 0:28:43of topics from women's rights to the Third World

0:28:43 > 0:28:45and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:45 > 0:28:49But there's much less discussion of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:49 > 0:28:53the purges and the political repression that would come later.

0:28:53 > 0:28:56We wanted to have this conference

0:28:56 > 0:28:59because we wanted to show it in a positive light.

0:28:59 > 0:29:02Whatever one's view of what happened to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:29:02 > 0:29:06the fact is it is important to understand the process

0:29:06 > 0:29:10of revolutionary change for its own sake.

0:29:11 > 0:29:14Red October would usher in 70 years of communism.

0:29:14 > 0:29:17The proletarite would rise, find respect and security.

0:29:17 > 0:29:21But the suppression of the peoples of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:21 > 0:29:26camps and the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions

0:29:26 > 0:29:29of people, make it difficult for many to see that revolution

0:29:29 > 0:29:33as something to celebrate.

0:29:34 > 0:29:36That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:36 > 0:29:39So is the centenary of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:39 > 0:29:40for celebration, or regret?

0:29:40 > 0:29:42Well, to discuss this I'm joined by former Labour

0:29:42 > 0:29:48and Respect MP George Galloway, and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:48 > 0:29:53Good morning. Let me start with you George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:53 > 0:29:58revolution a cause for celebration? With the, if not for the October

0:29:58 > 0:30:01revolution, we'd been conducting this interview in German. Though the

0:30:01 > 0:30:05truth is this interview wouldn't be taking place and we probably

0:30:05 > 0:30:12wouldn't be alive for a variety of reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:12 > 0:30:15back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:15 > 0:30:23elsewhere. If not for the Soviet Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:23 > 0:30:29his successorsness, perhaps until now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:29 > 0:30:33Portugal.You say we wouldn't be able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:33 > 0:30:35former Soviet Union we couldn't have this office either?That's also

0:30:35 > 0:30:43true. But even the...George will be able to say, that of course.Even

0:30:43 > 0:30:47the sun has spots on its face as they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:47 > 0:30:56Union. There is no doubt tremendous abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:56 > 0:31:06suffering but, if not for the transformation, then the Soviet

0:31:06 > 0:31:13Union, Russia's GDP increased from 1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:13 > 0:31:20And the strength that defeated Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:20 > 0:31:24Peter Hitchens, does it offend you there are people celebrating 100

0:31:24 > 0:31:29years since the Russian Revolution? Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:29 > 0:31:34in which I lived, you would not have been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:34 > 0:31:37cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:37 > 0:31:54Government using -- a cynical putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:54 > 0:32:00was the inauguration of an immensely long period of repression,

0:32:00 > 0:32:03brutality, secret police, concentration camps and lies, which

0:32:03 > 0:32:07I am likely to have seen come to an end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:07 > 0:32:10why anybody looking at that disastrous country where so much

0:32:10 > 0:32:13misery was needlessly imposed on so many people for so long could

0:32:13 > 0:32:16possibly celebrate the beginning of it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:16 > 0:32:22and as I say was truly the result of the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:22 > 0:32:24intelligence operations of the Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:24 > 0:32:29to save it skin...But everyone including George Galloway

0:32:29 > 0:32:34acknowledges the tyranny and terror that followed.He doesn't. He gives

0:32:34 > 0:32:36statistics about GDP but fails to mention the people murdered in

0:32:36 > 0:32:43labour

0:32:43 > 0:32:49camp... He was of course formerly a Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:49 > 0:32:54Lenin, which I have not done and neither have I done today. I have

0:32:54 > 0:32:58never been a Communist, unlike Peter Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:58 > 0:33:02celebrate that an entirely different world opened up as a result of the

0:33:02 > 0:33:07events in October 19 17. China, you have just seen their party congress,

0:33:07 > 0:33:11decorated with the iconography of the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:11 > 0:33:15is the most powerful, or soon will be the most powerful country on the

0:33:15 > 0:33:19earth.With one of the most repressive government?I don't think

0:33:19 > 0:33:25that is true. There is repression in China, but...Enormous repression in

0:33:25 > 0:33:30China! How can you possibly argue there is an?China has taken more

0:33:30 > 0:33:35people out of poverty in the last 30 years than any country, resume,

0:33:35 > 0:33:39system, ever has -- how can you possibly argue there is not?All

0:33:39 > 0:33:43despots always argue, trying to distract your attention from the

0:33:43 > 0:33:47mountains of skulls behind them, their supposed economic success,

0:33:47 > 0:33:50which generally does not turn out to be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:50 > 0:33:55Union was an enormous pile of rust by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:55 > 0:34:00complete catastrophe.Yes, that is why it fell down. But we are talking

0:34:00 > 0:34:05about the Revolution 100 years ago. Is it possible to separate the two

0:34:05 > 0:34:08events? A popular overthrowing of a government is perhaps different from

0:34:08 > 0:34:13the tyranny and terror that followed.It was not a popular

0:34:13 > 0:34:18overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:18 > 0:34:23we see was a film made afterwards. What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:23 > 0:34:31in the middle of the night in which hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:31 > 0:34:38mentioned...That German connection, a rather more important...Nobody

0:34:38 > 0:34:41has even mentioned during this year until now that there was a Russian

0:34:41 > 0:34:47Revolution. There were two. The first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:47 > 0:34:50overthrowing the old regime, and I think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:50 > 0:34:56second one was a cynical for -- foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:56 > 0:34:59not deserve to be spoken out.Is that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:59 > 0:35:05would have done better than a Bolshevik one?It is not my business

0:35:05 > 0:35:11and entirely counterfactual fiction, if I may...Unlike how you open this

0:35:11 > 0:35:15discussion.That is the most important thing. If not for the

0:35:15 > 0:35:22Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here. Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:22 > 0:35:28world, with its allies -- Adolph Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:28 > 0:35:33and most of the world...The effect of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:33 > 0:35:36Europe was colossal.Let's bring it all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:36 > 0:35:41You were saying earlier you have never been a Leninist, although

0:35:41 > 0:35:48Peter Hitchens confesses he was at one time.Absolutely was a

0:35:48 > 0:35:54Trotskyist, and now nor the complete folly of that particular political

0:35:54 > 0:35:59disposition.John McDonnell in the Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:59 > 0:36:04Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a problem for the Labour Party?I

0:36:04 > 0:36:07would have thought, arts would be more respected now than he has been

0:36:07 > 0:36:13for quite some time as capitalism is collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:13 > 0:36:182008 the Economist itself, the bible of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:18 > 0:36:23Marxist economics and analysis, so I really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:23 > 0:36:33Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only took them four years, 54...It is

0:36:33 > 0:36:41not that.I think we are moving into an era where Governments like the

0:36:41 > 0:36:44Chinese Government are making plans, and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:44 > 0:36:51them, and thus transforming their position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:51 > 0:36:53need to tell you, was just about the most backward place you could

0:36:53 > 0:37:00possibly imagine. And from 1949 to now it has sold transforms that it

0:37:00 > 0:37:09is the world's biggest economy...We are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:37:09 > 0:37:13by China here.I have to put this point in. If China was backward in

0:37:13 > 0:37:171949 it was far more backward by the time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:17 > 0:37:21leap forward and starved millions of people to death in the period of

0:37:21 > 0:37:27economic lunacy. You just don't notice...What George was saying

0:37:27 > 0:37:30they are, and a sense certainly amongst younger voters in this

0:37:30 > 0:37:33country and others, where they are turning against capitalism, they

0:37:33 > 0:37:37don't think it has worked or delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:37 > 0:37:40of Marxist Leninist philosophy is becoming more popular?Let's hope

0:37:40 > 0:37:44not. The fact the current system is failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:44 > 0:37:50the Soviet system, which is demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:50 > 0:37:53own leaders admitted it failed and that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:53 > 0:37:56in the period I was there and why it collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:56 > 0:37:59to conclude from examining our position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:59 > 0:38:02not the thing you want the dues. This was a long period of disaster,

0:38:02 > 0:38:07and I remember at the end of it watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:07 > 0:38:13has never been shown here, and the title means approximately we can't

0:38:13 > 0:38:19go on living like this, and for the first time, the politburo told the

0:38:19 > 0:38:22truth about what life was like in the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:22 > 0:38:25that cinema was weeping because finally they saw the truth being

0:38:25 > 0:38:27told about the dreadful anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:27 > 0:38:31been taught to live for so long. The idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:31 > 0:38:36it seems to me to be verging on the obscene.George, one interesting

0:38:36 > 0:38:41question about this of course, whilst there are events going on in

0:38:41 > 0:38:44London and across the UK to mark this centenary, it is not being

0:38:44 > 0:38:47celebrated in Russia.I was in Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

0:38:47 > 0:38:52is a big debate about whether it ought to be, and many people are

0:38:52 > 0:38:56celebrating it...Vladimir Putin is not. He would want to ignore it.But

0:38:56 > 0:39:01the Communist Party is the second biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:39:01 > 0:39:07the ruling party in China, which, with respect, is not a separate

0:39:07 > 0:39:09thing, because China is continuing the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:09 > 0:39:14rather better at it than the Russians did, but there are many

0:39:14 > 0:39:18people, particularly older, that is true, who think that the era of the

0:39:18 > 0:39:24Soviet Union was better than the very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:24 > 0:39:31succeeded it. So half the world followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:31 > 0:39:39the red banner of Leninism. No one will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:39 > 0:39:43kind that Peter used to proselytise is certainly not coming back, but

0:39:43 > 0:39:48Marxism is going to live on.Let's hope not.Thank you both, gentlemen,

0:39:48 > 0:39:50for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:50 > 0:39:51It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:51 > 0:39:52You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:52 > 0:39:55Coming up on the programme:

0:39:55 > 0:39:59We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:59 > 0:40:01We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:40:01 > 0:40:04It wasn't just Westminster that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:04 > 0:40:05We're asking people in Guildford in Surrey,

0:40:05 > 0:40:06does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

0:40:14 > 0:40:17Hello, hello, and welcome to Sunday politics here in the glorious west

0:40:17 > 0:40:18of England.

0:40:18 > 0:40:21Coming up, last of the summer wine.

0:40:21 > 0:40:24Many farmers and growers have had had trouble

0:40:24 > 0:40:26recruiting foreign workers for this year's harvest.

0:40:26 > 0:40:31Is this a taste of what it has in store?

0:40:31 > 0:40:36Well, it's bonfire night of course so I'm

0:40:36 > 0:40:37expecting some fireworks between my guests today.

0:40:37 > 0:40:39They are the Conservative MP for North Wiltshire,

0:40:39 > 0:40:43James Gray, and the green Euro MP Molly Scott Cato.

0:40:43 > 0:40:45Nice to see you both.

0:40:45 > 0:40:50Well, in the week's political news it has

0:40:50 > 0:40:51been dominated rather by

0:40:51 > 0:40:52the harassment scandal in Westminster.

0:40:52 > 0:40:54James, are you surprised at how many MPs have

0:40:54 > 0:40:55been caught up in this?

0:40:55 > 0:40:57Well, it's been a horrible atmosphere in Parliament

0:40:57 > 0:41:01all week with everyone wondering what on earth's going on.

0:41:01 > 0:41:03And the thing that worries me about it is

0:41:03 > 0:41:05that it's very, very serious matters and that

0:41:05 > 0:41:06have to be investigated and

0:41:06 > 0:41:09dealt with being muddled up with a lot of trivia.

0:41:09 > 0:41:11And that is very bad for all the victims.

0:41:11 > 0:41:13If there are victims of serious matters, and one

0:41:13 > 0:41:16or two horrible allegations around, they shouldn't be mixed up with some

0:41:16 > 0:41:18ancient business about some fellow putting his hand on

0:41:19 > 0:41:20a journalist's knee.

0:41:20 > 0:41:23Shouldn't do that, probably, but all the less it is trivial by

0:41:23 > 0:41:27comparison to some of the other things that have been caring.

0:41:27 > 0:41:28We've to take sexual harassment seriously,

0:41:28 > 0:41:31we've got to do with it, we've got to prevent it,

0:41:31 > 0:41:33but we mustn't allow it to be come a witchhunt.

0:41:33 > 0:41:35Is it going to actually escalate to the

0:41:35 > 0:41:37extent where perhaps it might even bring down the government?

0:41:37 > 0:41:39Not necessarily the Conservatives being

0:41:39 > 0:41:44involved but...

0:41:44 > 0:41:47I think there is no risk of that, I think all parties

0:41:47 > 0:41:48are involved in one way or another.

0:41:48 > 0:41:51I don't think there is any likelihood of the government falling

0:41:51 > 0:41:54over, I think that would be extremely surprising, but there will

0:41:54 > 0:41:57be some changes to come at the top I think and if there

0:41:57 > 0:41:59are people guilty of things, Michael Fallon apparently

0:41:59 > 0:42:01believed he was, then it's right that there should be the changes.

0:42:01 > 0:42:03OK, let's move on to you, Molly.

0:42:03 > 0:42:05We're just wondering what your experience is in the European

0:42:06 > 0:42:07Parliament.

0:42:07 > 0:42:09It's hard to believe that if there are these issues at

0:42:09 > 0:42:12Westminster it doesn't affect people in Brussels and Strasbourg, too.

0:42:12 > 0:42:14I have to say, actually, I haven't experienced

0:42:14 > 0:42:15sexual harassment at all in the European Parliament.

0:42:15 > 0:42:17I think there is a very different atmosphere

0:42:17 > 0:42:18there.

0:42:18 > 0:42:21There are many more women relatively, in the parliament

0:42:21 > 0:42:22compared to Westminster, and I think that in

0:42:22 > 0:42:24the corridors of power, the

0:42:24 > 0:42:26old boys' club, the sort of culture of Westminster

0:42:26 > 0:42:27is quite backward in

0:42:27 > 0:42:30lots of ways and I think this may be one example of that.

0:42:30 > 0:42:32Personally I think Ruth Davidson hit the nail on

0:42:32 > 0:42:35the head when she said usually this isn't about sex, it's about power,

0:42:35 > 0:42:38and it about that nature power relationships between men and women

0:42:38 > 0:42:41where there is not a quality that I think leads to this kind of

0:42:41 > 0:42:43harassment and sexual exploitation.

0:42:43 > 0:42:44James.

0:42:44 > 0:42:47Well, it has of course happened many times in the European

0:42:47 > 0:42:49Union, too, there's no question about that whatsoever.

0:42:49 > 0:42:50It happens everywhere that human beings get

0:42:50 > 0:42:52together, probably happens at the BBC,

0:42:52 > 0:42:53I dare say, not casting any

0:42:53 > 0:42:54any...

0:42:54 > 0:42:55Any asparagus at you.

0:42:55 > 0:42:56Asparagus?

0:42:56 > 0:42:57Aspersions, aspersions, aspersions!

0:42:57 > 0:42:59No problem to me, asparagus.

0:42:59 > 0:43:00It happens in all human organisations.

0:43:00 > 0:43:02Any evidence of it happening in the European

0:43:02 > 0:43:03Parliament?

0:43:03 > 0:43:06Yes of course, a number of MEPs have had to leave because of

0:43:06 > 0:43:09it but it does, of course, it happens in every

0:43:09 > 0:43:11company, in every organisation where men and women are getting

0:43:11 > 0:43:13together it can happen and that is

0:43:13 > 0:43:16why you have team have very clear rules, very clear rules and

0:43:16 > 0:43:18procedures to make sure that it isn't allowed to

0:43:18 > 0:43:20happen...

0:43:20 > 0:43:22No, I just wanted to say indeed there has

0:43:22 > 0:43:24been some allegations in the previous mandate which are being

0:43:24 > 0:43:27investigated, and one of the things I think is important that people

0:43:27 > 0:43:31don't just respond in a knee jerk sort of way but we try and

0:43:31 > 0:43:41look at the fundamentals of what's going on.

0:43:42 > 0:43:43Yes, that is right yes.

0:43:43 > 0:43:45We have a load of e-mails from people

0:43:45 > 0:43:47saying "I absolutely agree, as if that was going

0:43:47 > 0:43:48to solve the problem.

0:43:48 > 0:43:51We don't need virtue signalling here, we need people to actually

0:43:51 > 0:43:52address the fundamentals.

0:43:52 > 0:43:53Yes.

0:43:53 > 0:43:56We talked about Michael Fallon as Defence Secretary but we now have

0:43:56 > 0:43:58this guy, Mr Williamson, with his tarantula, what do

0:43:58 > 0:43:59you think that appointment?

0:43:59 > 0:44:01Well, Gavin's a very, very able chap highly intelligent,

0:44:01 > 0:44:02highly competent, knows everybody.

0:44:02 > 0:44:04He doesn't yet know anything about defence,

0:44:04 > 0:44:05he has an awful lot to

0:44:05 > 0:44:08learn there and I hope to play a little part

0:44:08 > 0:44:09in helping educate him.

0:44:09 > 0:44:11He does need to learn a great deal about it.

0:44:11 > 0:44:14Isn't it an odd system where someone with no idea about

0:44:14 > 0:44:17defence is suddenly in charge of hundreds of thousands of people?

0:44:17 > 0:44:20I was just about to say the great British system is that the Secretary

0:44:20 > 0:44:21of State very rarely does.

0:44:21 > 0:44:24One thing you do not want to have as Secretary

0:44:24 > 0:44:25of State for Health as a

0:44:25 > 0:44:28doctor and wanted you don't want to have as secretary of State for

0:44:28 > 0:44:29education is a teacher.

0:44:29 > 0:44:31Civil servants do all of that, the job of

0:44:31 > 0:44:34the secretary of state is to make the political decisions on the

0:44:34 > 0:44:37question of the sort of civil service put up to you.

0:44:37 > 0:44:38Would you ever fancy Defence Secretary?

0:44:38 > 0:44:40I think it's highly unlikely the Tories

0:44:40 > 0:44:41would ever appoint me as

0:44:41 > 0:44:44Defence Secretary but I think I could really shake things up.

0:44:44 > 0:44:47You would do away with it, you would do away with it.

0:44:47 > 0:44:49With both my poppies, I'd be spending a lot more on

0:44:49 > 0:44:50peacemaking than on war-making.

0:44:50 > 0:44:53Well, as well you know, it's been cold this week so the thought

0:44:53 > 0:44:56of being without a roof over your head doesn't bear

0:44:56 > 0:44:59thinking about a new law coming into force next year would mean

0:44:59 > 0:45:01local councils up to do more to help him

0:45:01 > 0:45:02or at risk of homelessness.

0:45:02 > 0:45:04But there are fears they would have enough

0:45:04 > 0:45:05money to do it, always the

0:45:05 > 0:45:06issue, of course.

0:45:06 > 0:45:08Dan O'Brien reports.

0:45:08 > 0:45:10This homeless charity is serving up hope as well as a meal

0:45:10 > 0:45:12and it is much needed.

0:45:12 > 0:45:13In the mornings, I think what's the point

0:45:14 > 0:45:15getting up for?

0:45:15 > 0:45:16Yeah.

0:45:16 > 0:45:17And carrying...

0:45:17 > 0:45:18I mean...

0:45:18 > 0:45:19Now the weather's getting colder, I just

0:45:19 > 0:45:29don't know what I'm going to do.

0:45:31 > 0:45:34Demand is growing in towns like Devizes, not just in big cities.

0:45:34 > 0:45:36Lost my house, the kids went into care.

0:45:36 > 0:45:37, Goodness.

0:45:37 > 0:45:41Then I ended up in the back of a van, where there is no

0:45:41 > 0:45:42heating, water, no access to...

0:45:42 > 0:45:43Cooking food, nothing.

0:45:43 > 0:45:45The arrival of bacon butties, one of the way the

0:45:45 > 0:45:48open doors charity provides welcome relief from life on the streets.

0:45:48 > 0:45:50I've had a rough time in life.

0:45:50 > 0:45:51I have obviously have some addictions,

0:45:51 > 0:45:54I've had to face my demons as well, I'm still going through them, but

0:45:54 > 0:45:56it's been a long process.

0:45:56 > 0:46:02And it has led to a life hard to imagine in the

0:46:02 > 0:46:03west's pretty market towns.

0:46:03 > 0:46:05So right now I'm staying in a wooden shed and

0:46:05 > 0:46:06it's just...

0:46:06 > 0:46:08It's absolutely freezing, it's really...

0:46:08 > 0:46:09It's diabolical really.

0:46:09 > 0:46:10What, just like a garden shed?

0:46:10 > 0:46:12Just like a garden shed, yeah.

0:46:12 > 0:46:13With my partner and...

0:46:13 > 0:46:14Two of you, then?

0:46:14 > 0:46:17Yeah!

0:46:17 > 0:46:18Homelessness takes many forms, but rough sleeping

0:46:19 > 0:46:20is the most extreme.

0:46:20 > 0:46:21Across the west, the number of rough sleepers

0:46:21 > 0:46:23candid in 2010 was 107 people.

0:46:23 > 0:46:25By the time of the last count in 2016,

0:46:25 > 0:46:29it had more than doubled to 241.

0:46:29 > 0:46:31The next count takes place in the coming

0:46:31 > 0:46:32weeks.

0:46:32 > 0:46:35Before people even end up needing the help of homeless

0:46:35 > 0:46:37charities like this one, next year the law will change forcing councils

0:46:37 > 0:46:40like Wiltshire to provide more help people more quickly than they do

0:46:40 > 0:46:44now.

0:46:44 > 0:46:46The change are really putting pressure on council bosses.

0:46:46 > 0:46:48The homeless reductions act will give us

0:46:48 > 0:46:51the requirement to actually look after people earlier.

0:46:51 > 0:46:54Up to now it's been 28 days, now it's 56 now just

0:46:54 > 0:47:00by the sheer numbers involved that is going

0:47:00 > 0:47:02to double the case load we

0:47:02 > 0:47:03have every year.

0:47:03 > 0:47:05The government is promising extra cash, but will it be

0:47:05 > 0:47:06enough?

0:47:06 > 0:47:09We have to balance our priorities because of course we've

0:47:09 > 0:47:11got looked after kids, we got elderly care, we got even roads,

0:47:11 > 0:47:14potholes, people have concerns about all sorts of areas.

0:47:14 > 0:47:15Meanwhile west MPs Richard Graham, David Warburton

0:47:15 > 0:47:17and Michelle Donelan are backing a charity

0:47:17 > 0:47:18call for the Chancellor to

0:47:18 > 0:47:25put more cash into helping homeless people rent a place to live.

0:47:25 > 0:47:27For Jen in Devizes, help can't come soon enough.

0:47:27 > 0:47:29Where would you be without the facilities like this and

0:47:29 > 0:47:32charities like this?

0:47:32 > 0:47:35Oh to be fair, I'd probably end up being dead, to

0:47:35 > 0:47:38be fair, I would have just gone over the top but these places, they've

0:47:38 > 0:47:41opened the doors to everybody and they don't judge anybody, and

0:47:41 > 0:47:46they're just fantastic.

0:47:46 > 0:47:53Charities like this one to rely on donations

0:47:53 > 0:47:55as winter draws in they also need coats, socks and sleeping bags.

0:47:55 > 0:47:57Help from the community as well as the

0:47:57 > 0:48:00government.

0:48:00 > 0:48:02Well, to discuss that I'm joined by Hannah Gowsey from the

0:48:02 > 0:48:04housing charity crisis thanks for coming on the programme.

0:48:04 > 0:48:06When you helped draft this new law that is

0:48:06 > 0:48:09coming in next year, how much of a difference

0:48:09 > 0:48:10will it make, do you think?

0:48:10 > 0:48:12The new legislation marks a transformation of the homelessness

0:48:12 > 0:48:14legislation in England.

0:48:14 > 0:48:16When the new legislation comes in, thousands more

0:48:16 > 0:48:18people will be eligible for assistance at a much, much earlier

0:48:18 > 0:48:21point so in principle the legislation will go a long way to

0:48:21 > 0:48:24help resolving homelessness but of course we do need to make

0:48:24 > 0:48:25sure that authorities are properly resourced

0:48:25 > 0:48:28to meet the new duties and that is why ahead of the budget

0:48:28 > 0:48:30we are calling on the government to invest

0:48:30 > 0:48:36a further £31 million in help to rent schemes.

0:48:36 > 0:48:39And have you had any indication that that might actually happen?

0:48:39 > 0:48:43So we don't have any indication ahead of the budget as to

0:48:43 > 0:48:45whether or not will be included.

0:48:45 > 0:48:48But what I would say is that government has made firm commitments

0:48:48 > 0:48:51to tackle homelessness.

0:48:51 > 0:48:53They have put a lot of support behind the

0:48:53 > 0:48:54homeless reduction act, they've also pledged

0:48:54 > 0:48:55to halve rough sleeping by

0:48:55 > 0:48:582022, and end it all together by 2027, so by supporting

0:48:58 > 0:49:01the help to rent projects and including them in the budget they

0:49:01 > 0:49:04would be helping to meet their own commitments on this.

0:49:04 > 0:49:11What I would say though is that we obviously have

0:49:11 > 0:49:13no guarantee that this is going to be in the

0:49:13 > 0:49:15budget and that is why we

0:49:15 > 0:49:17are asking members of the public to price

0:49:17 > 0:49:18to the Chancellor ahead of the

0:49:18 > 0:49:21budget on the 22nd of November and ask them to include

0:49:21 > 0:49:24this and you can do that by going to our website, we

0:49:24 > 0:49:27have a very easy letter that you can just fill in.

0:49:27 > 0:49:29OK, thank you for that!

0:49:29 > 0:49:32And I will come back to you if I can a little bit later on.

0:49:32 > 0:49:34James, the number of homeless has

0:49:34 > 0:49:38doubled whilst the Tories have been on duty.

0:49:38 > 0:49:41Well, I very much welcome this new bill brought in by my

0:49:41 > 0:49:43friend Bob Blackman, the Conservative MP for Harrow West.

0:49:43 > 0:49:45It was a member's bill in the government that

0:49:46 > 0:49:51then adopted it and

0:49:51 > 0:49:53they have now put behind it £75 million already

0:49:53 > 0:49:54and have promised a

0:49:54 > 0:49:57lot more money to come to help local authorities with these extra

0:49:57 > 0:49:59burdens, so it is a good bill.

0:49:59 > 0:50:01But of course one single person sleeping

0:50:01 > 0:50:02outdoors is a scandal.

0:50:02 > 0:50:03I'm very worried locally particularly by the

0:50:03 > 0:50:06ex-military, an awful lot of veterans who can't find a home and

0:50:06 > 0:50:10they are sleeping rough, particularly around this area and

0:50:10 > 0:50:12also in London and elsewhere, and we have defined

0:50:12 > 0:50:13way of helping them in

0:50:13 > 0:50:14particular.

0:50:14 > 0:50:17The big worry often is that the government says it will do

0:50:17 > 0:50:19something and then doesn't fully fund it

0:50:19 > 0:50:20so it puts the pressure on

0:50:20 > 0:50:22the local authorities and they have to cut

0:50:22 > 0:50:23something else in order to

0:50:23 > 0:50:27make it happen.

0:50:27 > 0:50:30Of course, we already have a statutory obligation to look after

0:50:30 > 0:50:33the homeless, that is part of the government's job and always has

0:50:33 > 0:50:35been.

0:50:35 > 0:50:37This is piling on extra duties to intervene 56 days

0:50:37 > 0:50:38before someone is made homeless?

0:50:38 > 0:50:39That's right.

0:50:39 > 0:50:42They are trying to avoid you becoming homeless and

0:50:42 > 0:50:43they're all kinds different homeless people.

0:50:43 > 0:50:45Varying from the people who may be suffering from drug

0:50:46 > 0:50:47problems...

0:50:47 > 0:50:49But it's the money, James, we know the problems.

0:50:49 > 0:50:50It's the money.

0:50:50 > 0:50:52So everyone wants more money all the time.

0:50:52 > 0:50:54But the problem is burying from all sorts of people

0:50:54 > 0:50:56who've got real sickness, alcohol problems, ex-military, these kind

0:50:56 > 0:50:57of...

0:50:57 > 0:51:00They aren't all the same and each one has to be treated

0:51:00 > 0:51:03separately, and local authorities of the people that can do that.

0:51:03 > 0:51:05That is why the government has put up £75

0:51:05 > 0:51:06million to help them do it.

0:51:06 > 0:51:09Molly, this is a problem I guess across Europe.

0:51:09 > 0:51:11You have spent a lot of time in Brussels and Strasbourg.

0:51:11 > 0:51:13Do you see people sleeping rough there?

0:51:13 > 0:51:15There are definitely people sleeping rough and people begging in most

0:51:15 > 0:51:17European countries and in many cases it's

0:51:17 > 0:51:18often refugees, that's

0:51:18 > 0:51:19certainly the case in Belgium.

0:51:19 > 0:51:20But just to

0:51:20 > 0:51:22come back to what James was saying.

0:51:22 > 0:51:25He neatly sidestepped your question about why this has doubled,

0:51:25 > 0:51:27why this problem has greatly increased under the Tories but it is

0:51:27 > 0:51:30indeed a result of all be spending cuts and also the welfare cap.

0:51:31 > 0:51:32Is it?

0:51:32 > 0:51:34Yes, I mean, the welfare cap is absolutely crucial here because if

0:51:34 > 0:51:38you are an housing benefit and it did is cut you cannot afford to pay

0:51:38 > 0:51:39your rent you are made homeless.

0:51:39 > 0:51:41That is the beginning of that.

0:51:41 > 0:51:43There are lots of complex issues you would

0:51:43 > 0:51:44accept, there's addiction, there's...

0:51:44 > 0:51:46As mental health, there's relationship breakdown, the whole

0:51:46 > 0:51:47lot.

0:51:47 > 0:51:49The housing charities agree that the most

0:51:49 > 0:51:50significant cause of this is

0:51:50 > 0:51:51when the government, the Tory government,

0:51:51 > 0:51:54as part of its cuts, introduced the cap on welfare

0:51:54 > 0:51:55benefits...

0:51:55 > 0:51:57It's a shame to make it party political.

0:51:57 > 0:51:58It's not a party political matter.

0:51:58 > 0:52:02It is a party political matter, because YOU have

0:52:02 > 0:52:03been cutting welfare. matter, because YOU have

0:52:03 > 0:52:05There are of course more beds available in

0:52:05 > 0:52:07hostels today than there are people.

0:52:07 > 0:52:08210 is very insignificant by comparison

0:52:08 > 0:52:10to the number of beds in hostels.

0:52:10 > 0:52:12These people are not unable to go to hostels,

0:52:12 > 0:52:13they don't wish to do so.

0:52:13 > 0:52:17That's what we have to look into, that's to do with mental health,

0:52:17 > 0:52:18it's to do with drugs...

0:52:18 > 0:52:19It's not Labour or Conservative, I think

0:52:19 > 0:52:20that's just wrong to...

0:52:20 > 0:52:22Let's just think about what we're talking about

0:52:22 > 0:52:23here.

0:52:23 > 0:52:26We are talking about children, families, who cannot afford to

0:52:26 > 0:52:27cannot afford to...

0:52:27 > 0:52:28No, we're talking about rough sleepers.

0:52:28 > 0:52:29Rough sleepers.

0:52:29 > 0:52:30It's rough sleepers.

0:52:30 > 0:52:31Hang on a second.

0:52:31 > 0:52:33This brings me onto my next question.

0:52:33 > 0:52:35Where are these homes going to be found?

0:52:35 > 0:52:37Well, of course we're talking here about rough

0:52:37 > 0:52:39sleepers, we're not talking about homeless people.

0:52:39 > 0:52:41We're talking about people sleeping outdoors in the West

0:52:41 > 0:52:43Country, and they are the worst people we really have

0:52:43 > 0:52:44to do something about.

0:52:44 > 0:52:47As I say there are more hostel places available than...

0:52:47 > 0:52:49So when the government put a cap on welfare

0:52:49 > 0:52:51payments, and particularly on housing benefit, there was a

0:52:51 > 0:52:54catastrophic fall off in the number of social housing homes being built.

0:52:54 > 0:52:56What is the cap? I think it is £20,000.

0:52:56 > 0:52:57That's a lot of money.

0:52:57 > 0:52:59That's not just housing benefit, that's the

0:52:59 > 0:53:00whole welfare cap.

0:53:00 > 0:53:02Housing benefit is just a part of that.

0:53:02 > 0:53:04So then there was no incentive to carry on

0:53:04 > 0:53:06building, it was simply stopped building social housing because they

0:53:06 > 0:53:08didn't think people would be able to pay

0:53:08 > 0:53:10enough to afford it and that is

0:53:10 > 0:53:11the rub.

0:53:11 > 0:53:14Is it still the green policy to build 500,000 new social

0:53:14 > 0:53:16last. It didn't get us in amess at all.

0:53:16 > 0:53:19All if you recall, Evan Davis said the policy was quite right.

0:53:19 > 0:53:21Your leader had no idea how much it would

0:53:21 > 0:53:22cost.

0:53:22 > 0:53:25She had a cold that day, she couldn't remember the numbers but

0:53:25 > 0:53:27Evan Davis actually confirmed that it is actually fine.

0:53:27 > 0:53:28Do you remember the numbers now?

0:53:28 > 0:53:30We're not making that proposal now because we're not

0:53:30 > 0:53:33in a general election period. No, it hasn't gone.

0:53:33 > 0:53:35The point is that funding will come as a result of

0:53:35 > 0:53:38councils being able to borrow to build and that is worth their while

0:53:38 > 0:53:41because at the moment they are having to pay an awful lot

0:53:41 > 0:53:43of money to keep people in bed and breakfasts

0:53:43 > 0:53:46who wouldn't be much more efficiently invested into into safe,

0:53:46 > 0:53:48warm homes for people to live in.

0:53:48 > 0:53:49OK. In this weather, we all need that.

0:53:49 > 0:53:52Thank you very much, and Hannah, in London, thank you very

0:53:52 > 0:53:55much, too.

0:53:55 > 0:53:58We are 16 months on from the Brexit referendum and still very

0:53:58 > 0:54:00little is clear about what it will mean for any of us.

0:54:00 > 0:54:02But there has been one significant effect.

0:54:02 > 0:54:05The fall in the value of the pound.

0:54:05 > 0:54:10It has meant opportunities.

0:54:10 > 0:54:12For some Businesses in the west but some problems for

0:54:13 > 0:54:14others as Martin Jones reports.

0:54:14 > 0:54:15The last of the summer wine.

0:54:15 > 0:54:17The grape harvest coming to an end in this

0:54:17 > 0:54:18Gloucestershire winery.

0:54:18 > 0:54:19Pickers are in high demand.

0:54:19 > 0:54:22These are from Bulgaria working so hard they don't

0:54:22 > 0:54:23stop too long to chat.

0:54:23 > 0:54:27Is it good money working in Britain?

0:54:27 > 0:54:32Depends.

0:54:34 > 0:54:37It's good for us, compared to here it is low standard.

0:54:37 > 0:54:41Is this your first time in England?

0:54:41 > 0:54:42Yeah, it's my first time.

0:54:42 > 0:54:43What do you think?

0:54:43 > 0:54:44It's very beautiful here.

0:54:44 > 0:54:51But in Bulgaria is more beautiful.

0:54:51 > 0:54:53But the winery needs Mohammed to overcome the

0:54:53 > 0:54:56beauty of his homeland because they want him back next year.

0:54:56 > 0:55:00And more like him.

0:55:00 > 0:55:03We wanted to have 12, perhaps 14 people to come and help

0:55:03 > 0:55:05us additionally to our regular labour.

0:55:05 > 0:55:09We have found that we rarely were able to achieve those numbers,

0:55:09 > 0:55:14they have been leaving in droves to go to Germany, to work for euros,

0:55:14 > 0:55:17and they aren't making the money here that they did with the exchange

0:55:17 > 0:55:25rate of the pound.

0:55:25 > 0:55:28From the vineyard the grapes are processed on site

0:55:28 > 0:55:32making a quarter of a million bottles a year.

0:55:32 > 0:55:35But in the wine world that is just a dribble.

0:55:35 > 0:55:38And it's all drunk here in the UK.

0:55:38 > 0:55:40And since the referendum costs have soared leaving

0:55:40 > 0:55:42a sour taste.

0:55:42 > 0:55:45For us at the moment the fall in the pound has meant the

0:55:45 > 0:55:48difference in that what we import has become more expensive.

0:55:48 > 0:55:50Bottles, the label, paper we print the labels

0:55:50 > 0:55:52on is imported, the capsules, foils for our sparkling wines, so

0:55:52 > 0:56:02any equipment that we want to buy.

0:56:09 > 0:56:12The value of the pound slumped straight after the Brexit vote and

0:56:12 > 0:56:13has never recovered.

0:56:13 > 0:56:14It means British pounds by less abroad.

0:56:14 > 0:56:17Holidays, computers, food and drink have all become more expensive.

0:56:17 > 0:56:19But if you have foreign cash buying British has become cheaper.

0:56:19 > 0:56:21But down the road in Somerset one farm has

0:56:22 > 0:56:23seen a Brexit boost.

0:56:23 > 0:56:25At Sharp Park near Street, Roger Saul grows spelt,

0:56:25 > 0:56:27a type of ancient grain, regaining popularity thanks

0:56:27 > 0:56:28to its supposedly health benefits.

0:56:28 > 0:56:30The fall in the pound has recently helped Roger land

0:56:30 > 0:56:39a big contract with a British supermarket.

0:56:39 > 0:56:41We work with Waitrose, Sainsbury's, Marks & Spencer, all of

0:56:41 > 0:56:45those teams are looking very hard I would suggest at the moment to see

0:56:45 > 0:56:48what they can do in Britain.

0:56:48 > 0:56:50And it is not just because of national

0:56:50 > 0:56:52pride.

0:56:52 > 0:56:55The lower exchange rate means his Somerset grains are finally

0:56:55 > 0:56:58competitive with those from abroad.

0:56:58 > 0:57:02It has opened up some big doors for us and that is largely because of

0:57:02 > 0:57:04that same competition that was 20% cheaper now

0:57:04 > 0:57:05being the same price as

0:57:05 > 0:57:08me so I would love to say I have now a level playing field.

0:57:08 > 0:57:10Spelt is a far cry from Roger's business

0:57:10 > 0:57:14roots.

0:57:14 > 0:57:15He founded fashion brand Mulberry, selling British handbags

0:57:16 > 0:57:18all round the world.

0:57:18 > 0:57:20And Brexit could finally mean he is able to sew

0:57:20 > 0:57:24up more international deals for spelt.

0:57:24 > 0:57:26So, from the export side the opportunity is there.

0:57:26 > 0:57:28However it is probably early days because most

0:57:28 > 0:57:31people are looking and seeing will the currency stay where it is as a

0:57:31 > 0:57:33country to imports to, but they are definitely

0:57:33 > 0:57:34out there looking.

0:57:34 > 0:57:36But even the one change we have already

0:57:36 > 0:57:41seen since the referendum may not last.

0:57:41 > 0:57:43The pound could go back up of course.

0:57:43 > 0:57:44Predicting our Brexit

0:57:44 > 0:57:46future will sort the wheat from the chaff.

0:57:46 > 0:57:51Maybe, but we'll have a bash.

0:57:51 > 0:57:54Molly, it seems sort of swings and roundabouts, really, doesn't it,

0:57:54 > 0:58:00some winners, some losers.

0:58:00 > 0:58:02That will be the story of Brexit, isn't it?

0:58:02 > 0:58:04At the moment we are able to have our cake

0:58:04 > 0:58:07and eat it because the pound has fallen, Brexit hasn't happened so we

0:58:07 > 0:58:11aren't facing the tariffs we will be facing, so if we take the vineyard,

0:58:11 > 0:58:14we saw from the NFU that there is a 30% failure in terms

0:58:14 > 0:58:16of the number of people needed to pick the crops

0:58:16 > 0:58:19that that is one effect of Brexit we are already

0:58:19 > 0:58:21seeing but as you saw, Roger Saul, the person who is

0:58:21 > 0:58:23benefiting at the moment, exporting his brains,

0:58:23 > 0:58:26he will be facing a 50% tariff on those grains after we have

0:58:26 > 0:58:28left the European Union so that is much more,

0:58:28 > 0:58:31they will be much more expensive and that will outweigh the

0:58:31 > 0:58:35fall in the pound.

0:58:35 > 0:58:37It's unlikely, isn't it, because then Britain would

0:58:37 > 0:58:39impose these tariffs on stuff coming in, to.

0:58:39 > 0:58:42Well, it depends what kind of deal we get but if we have the

0:58:42 > 0:58:45hard Brexit deal that people like James are calling for it will be 50%

0:58:45 > 0:58:46tariffs.

0:58:46 > 0:58:47That is WTO rules.

0:58:47 > 0:58:48No?

0:58:48 > 0:58:49Let's hear you then.

0:58:49 > 0:58:51We will have a deal.

0:58:51 > 0:58:52I didn't say that.

0:58:52 > 0:58:53You said something along those lines.

0:58:53 > 0:58:55You are still throwing me asparagus!

0:58:55 > 0:59:05I agree with you entirely, absolutely right.

0:59:05 > 0:59:07Who picks the asparagus, that's my question.

0:59:07 > 0:59:09Look, you are right in saying that of the Europeans export

0:59:09 > 0:59:11more to us than we export them.

0:59:11 > 0:59:15Therefore if there would be a 50% tariff on grains we would have a 50%

0:59:15 > 0:59:17tariff on BMW cars and there would be widespread unemployment across

0:59:17 > 0:59:18Germany.

0:59:18 > 0:59:21Of course there will be a trade deal up the intelligent people

0:59:21 > 0:59:22would not do it.

0:59:22 > 0:59:25The important thing about the currency is that at the

0:59:25 > 0:59:27moment people working in tourism and all sorts

0:59:27 > 0:59:28of other industries in the

0:59:28 > 0:59:31west are doing extraordinarily well, because they can export of the pound

0:59:31 > 0:59:33has been weaker, and we are discouraging imports which is very

0:59:33 > 0:59:35good for the balance of trade.

0:59:35 > 0:59:38I quite like the pound at $1.32, but if Molly doesn't I wonder

0:59:38 > 0:59:40what rate you think the pound should be at.

0:59:40 > 0:59:43Oh gosh, as an economist I wouldn't dream of predicting that.

0:59:43 > 0:59:44But what is the correct level?

0:59:44 > 0:59:46What is the correct level?

0:59:46 > 0:59:47This is a completely artificial situation.

0:59:47 > 0:59:49Whatever happens when we get in to the deal,

0:59:49 > 0:59:52there will certainly be conditions attached to that and what we hear

0:59:52 > 0:59:54from the Conservatives I am afraid there's just

0:59:54 > 0:59:55arm waving, oh, well, we

0:59:55 > 0:59:57know the Germans will do this.

0:59:57 > 0:59:59We actually need to have a clear sense

0:59:59 > 1:00:00of what is really

1:00:00 > 1:00:02coming and in the area of food and farming...

1:00:02 > 1:00:03Well, we will do!

1:00:03 > 1:00:06We've been waiting a year now for the report for the plan, the

1:00:06 > 1:00:082020 vision for food and farming.

1:00:08 > 1:00:11And it's been pulled again and now we're not going to have one.

1:00:11 > 1:00:12Food and farming...

1:00:12 > 1:00:14We import a quarter of our food directly from the EU.

1:00:14 > 1:00:17We need to know what we will be eating

1:00:17 > 1:00:18after Brexit.

1:00:18 > 1:00:20James, I just want to return to these government studies,

1:00:20 > 1:00:22the 58 government studies on the impact of Brexit.

1:00:22 > 1:00:24And the initial refusal until they have been forced

1:00:24 > 1:00:27to by the House of Commons to publish those, Brexit is good news

1:00:27 > 1:00:31for us then why wouldn't that information be out for all of us to

1:00:31 > 1:00:32read and enjoy?

1:00:32 > 1:00:34Well, the Labour Party used a Parliamentary

1:00:34 > 1:00:36technicality on Thursday to insist that we should release the impact

1:00:36 > 1:00:38assessments, and we have now agreed to do so,

1:00:38 > 1:00:41we didn't vote against it, the Labour Party voted in favour of

1:00:41 > 1:00:44it, we agreed to do so although we were slightly

1:00:44 > 1:00:46embarrassed by the way it has involved Buckingham Palace

1:00:46 > 1:00:49and the Queen in what should be a political matter and that is quite

1:00:49 > 1:00:50wrong.

1:00:50 > 1:00:53However, we are going to produce these documents, a bit

1:00:53 > 1:00:54redacted for the very simple reason that we

1:00:54 > 1:00:56are right in the middle of a

1:00:56 > 1:00:59negotiation and if I'm negotiating to buy your house and are suddenly

1:00:59 > 1:01:01produce a document that says I have a lot more

1:01:01 > 1:01:03money than I thought I

1:01:03 > 1:01:06had or a lot less money than I thought I had, that affects that

1:01:06 > 1:01:07negotiation.

1:01:07 > 1:01:09OK, Molly, just come back on that one.

1:01:09 > 1:01:11Well, I've been trying to get hold of these

1:01:11 > 1:01:12documents since April.

1:01:12 > 1:01:14I don't understand why the government's

1:01:14 > 1:01:17concealing from us what the impacts of Brexit will be, I don't think it

1:01:17 > 1:01:20satisfactory to just send them down one coda to a small number of people

1:01:20 > 1:01:21on a committee.

1:01:21 > 1:01:24I think we all need to know what the government thinks

1:01:24 > 1:01:26Brexit's going to do for our livelihoods.

1:01:26 > 1:01:27Even if it damages...

1:01:27 > 1:01:28Even if it did damage the negotiation?

1:01:28 > 1:01:31Well, I don't except that it's kind of a poker game.

1:01:31 > 1:01:33We're not playing a poker game here, we should be...

1:01:33 > 1:01:35White, well we are, really.

1:01:35 > 1:01:36No, we're not!

1:01:36 > 1:01:38It's not that kind of arrangement at all.

1:01:38 > 1:01:39As if the Europeans don't know what the

1:01:39 > 1:01:41impact of leaving the single market will be.

1:01:41 > 1:01:42Of course they do!

1:01:42 > 1:01:45This is much more about saving the government's blushes than it is

1:01:45 > 1:01:47anything to do with the negotiations.

1:01:47 > 1:01:48OK, thank you.

1:01:48 > 1:01:50Well, let's have a look at the rest of

1:01:50 > 1:01:52this week's political news in just 60 Seconds.

1:01:52 > 1:01:54Council leaders in the west promised £35 million for new

1:01:54 > 1:01:56high-tech industries, including virtual reality and a lab

1:01:56 > 1:01:57developing more efficient engines.

1:01:57 > 1:01:59They say the cash will bring thousands of new

1:01:59 > 1:02:00jobs.

1:02:00 > 1:02:03The west's new Metro Mayor came under pressure over housing.

1:02:03 > 1:02:05Tim Bowles pledged to protect land in south Gloucestershire from

1:02:05 > 1:02:07house-building but plans released this week included controversial

1:02:07 > 1:02:08developments.

1:02:08 > 1:02:10The governments from before councils means that I'm not

1:02:10 > 1:02:11involved on that process.

1:02:11 > 1:02:13Also under pressure Bristol businessmen Aaron

1:02:13 > 1:02:14Banks.

1:02:14 > 1:02:17He is being investigated over the way he has spent money in the EU

1:02:17 > 1:02:18referendum campaign.

1:02:18 > 1:02:20He says claims he channelled money from Russia are

1:02:20 > 1:02:22nonsense, and used some ruder words as well.

1:02:22 > 1:02:25And in Stroud, the local council was left red faced after

1:02:25 > 1:02:28revealing it wanted green power firm Eco-tricity to run the town's

1:02:28 > 1:02:29routes.

1:02:29 > 1:02:32The problem is that no one was supposed to know, so keep it

1:02:32 > 1:02:42under your hat.

1:02:47 > 1:02:49Yes, we won't tell anyone!

1:02:49 > 1:02:51And that is all from us this week.

1:02:51 > 1:02:54My thanks to my guests, James Gray and Molly Scott Cato.

1:02:54 > 1:02:56Don't forget you can follow us on Twitter

1:02:56 > 1:02:57for the latest updates and you can watch

1:02:57 > 1:03:02the show back again on the

1:03:02 > 1:03:03iPlayer if you should wish to!

1:03:03 > 1:03:05But now, let's get back to London and

1:03:05 > 1:03:06Sarah, who is waiting for us.

1:03:07 > 1:03:08to support.

1:03:08 > 1:03:11All right, and at that point we have to end it there.

1:03:11 > 1:03:13My thanks to Rosena and Andrew, and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:14 > 1:03:16It's been a tricky week for Theresa May -

1:03:16 > 1:03:17again, you might think.

1:03:17 > 1:03:19She's lost a Cabinet minister and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:19 > 1:03:23which did little for party unity, to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:23 > 1:03:26vote on Brexit and yet more reports of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:26 > 1:03:27this time apparently over housing.

1:03:27 > 1:03:30So, is the Prime Minister's time in office going with a bang

1:03:30 > 1:03:31or more of a whimper?

1:03:31 > 1:03:32Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:32 > 1:03:34and the entirely unscientific Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:34 > 1:03:36to Conservative-held Surrey, to find out.

1:03:36 > 1:03:40ALL:Three, two, one.

1:03:40 > 1:03:46# Ignite the light and let it shine...#

1:03:46 > 1:03:50It's a tale of lit fuses, plots, conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:50 > 1:03:53but enough of the recent goings on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:53 > 1:03:57it's firework night here in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:57 > 1:04:00does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

1:04:00 > 1:04:01Yes or no?

1:04:01 > 1:04:06# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:06 > 1:04:08With all the scandals in Government at the moment

1:04:08 > 1:04:12and Brexit seems to be dragging on a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:12 > 1:04:15So, at the moment, I don't think she is in control.

1:04:18 > 1:04:21She's too many people sniping at her back, really.

1:04:21 > 1:04:23Do you think Theresa May's in control?

1:04:23 > 1:04:24I think she's in control.

1:04:24 > 1:04:26She's in a good job having a tough time.

1:04:26 > 1:04:27No, I don't.

1:04:27 > 1:04:29I think she's a mess.

1:04:29 > 1:04:31Even when you read her body language when she's being interviewed

1:04:31 > 1:04:34by people, she doesn't seem like she's in control.

1:04:34 > 1:04:38I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:40 > 1:04:44I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:44 > 1:04:48I do think she's struggling but, I still hope, still think she has

1:04:48 > 1:04:51a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:51 > 1:04:53The Queen is England's role.

1:04:53 > 1:04:55It's her birth right.

1:04:55 > 1:04:58She is England's role of this country.

1:04:58 > 1:05:01I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:05:01 > 1:05:05I don't think there's anyone who could do a better job.

1:05:05 > 1:05:08I think she's had a bit of a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:08 > 1:05:09I think she could have done better.

1:05:09 > 1:05:12The money's not going to where it needs to go.

1:05:12 > 1:05:13I think she should resign, really.

1:05:13 > 1:05:16I feel a bit sorry for her, actually.

1:05:16 > 1:05:18I think she's been witch-hunted a little bit.

1:05:18 > 1:05:21She's doing her best.

1:05:21 > 1:05:24With everything that's going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:24 > 1:05:27moment, I think the Conservative Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:27 > 1:05:29Very disappointed.

1:05:29 > 1:05:35Well, you get bickering in all parts not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:35 > 1:05:38And that's just sort of par for the course.

1:05:38 > 1:05:40But I'm sure she'll hold everybody together

1:05:40 > 1:05:42despite the current difficulties.

1:05:42 > 1:05:45The Tories weren't in control when they had the referendum

1:05:45 > 1:05:47in the first place for the euro.

1:05:47 > 1:05:50We've had two years of complete chaos.

1:05:50 > 1:05:53I don't see an end to it.

1:05:53 > 1:05:55Well, I seem to have acquired a few new friends.

1:05:55 > 1:05:59The oohs and ahs are over and so the moodbox

1:05:59 > 1:06:02and the result is...

1:06:02 > 1:06:04No.

1:06:04 > 1:06:05The majority of people here in Guildford

1:06:05 > 1:06:08don't think Theresa May is in control.

1:06:08 > 1:06:12CHEERING

1:06:12 > 1:06:14That was Ellie with the entirely unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:14 > 1:06:21to Bushy Hill Junior School in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:21 > 1:06:26Let's put the Sorbol question to our panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:26 > 1:06:29seasoned Westminster watchers. Is Theresa May in control of her

1:06:29 > 1:06:34Government at the moment or is all of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:34 > 1:06:38swimming around loosening her grip? Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:38 > 1:06:45All Prime Ministers have a degree of control. They retain the power much

1:06:45 > 1:06:49tat wrongage as we saw with her reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:49 > 1:06:55her MPs but she did it. You can't be fully in control of these situations

1:06:55 > 1:06:58in effectively what is a hung Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:58 > 1:07:02in the election she would have the authority to do what she wanted. She

1:07:02 > 1:07:06could float over something like this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:06 > 1:07:10say she's perfectly suited for it, the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:10 > 1:07:13goer, to sort it out. It is much more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:13 > 1:07:17think she will be able to get a full grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:17 > 1:07:22things that need to happen that will happen. I remember with back to

1:07:22 > 1:07:26basics and John Major, that equally vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:26 > 1:07:31basics about? It was still running months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:31 > 1:07:35minister having an affair. This is different. I can see it will be

1:07:35 > 1:07:39impossible for her to fully get to grips with it.Does it provide an

1:07:39 > 1:07:43opportunity for Theresa May to be seen to be taking really serious

1:07:43 > 1:07:46action, trying to root out a bad culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:46 > 1:07:50get some political credit for it? That opportunity was available to

1:07:50 > 1:07:56her all of last week and she hasn't taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:56 > 1:07:59is the near complete breakdown in discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:59 > 1:08:04Tory Party. It is extraordinary you have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:08:04 > 1:08:08not supporting their colleagues. Ministers and former ministers

1:08:08 > 1:08:12giving interviews in which they slag off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:12 > 1:08:17an absolute unholy mess. There is no sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:17 > 1:08:20has any particular solution. I think we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:20 > 1:08:24her in terms of finding a solution. How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:24 > 1:08:33like this where you're talking about apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:33 > 1:08:36retrospective examination of potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:36 > 1:08:39longer too historic for somebody to dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:39 > 1:08:43or may not have happened to them. It is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:43 > 1:08:50being battered around by events. Where does this story go next?I

1:08:50 > 1:08:54think the whip's office on every party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:54 > 1:08:57Democrats, SNP all have their own whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:57 > 1:09:03be the place of it really. This is because, where do we draw the line?

1:09:03 > 1:09:06Going forward what mechanisms are put in place to top this helping

1:09:06 > 1:09:10again. To take allegations seriously, report them and

1:09:10 > 1:09:15investigate them independently. Or is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:15 > 1:09:20into the past retrospective, who knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:20 > 1:09:25Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:25 > 1:09:29the Labour Party leader know about Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:29 > 1:09:34promoted him? Theresa May is unable to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:34 > 1:09:39simply too weak. I asked this of Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:39 > 1:09:42not more front-foot the on this. They said they would be if they

1:09:42 > 1:09:46possibly could be. She's running a minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:46 > 1:09:51seen to be going after a witch-hunt on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:51 > 1:10:00goes on. Enof thebly what the whips new -- inevitably what the whips

1:10:00 > 1:10:09knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did the same thing on Andrew Marr.They

1:10:09 > 1:10:14are being precise about the fact they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:14 > 1:10:18Newton said she heard no allegations about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:18 > 1:10:25in charge of rather than rumours about any other Tories.Amber Rudd

1:10:25 > 1:10:30say, I do not recognise the more lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:30 > 1:10:34less lurid once? So, this smells very, very bad indeed.Jeremy

1:10:34 > 1:10:40Corbyn's going to have to answer some of these questions as well?

1:10:40 > 1:10:45Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:45 > 1:10:47vote out for the Government fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:47 > 1:10:51They are not there, it is one of the problems. They are not there to be

1:10:51 > 1:10:56moral guides to these MPs. They are there to win votes for the

1:10:56 > 1:11:00Government or the opposition if that becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:11:00 > 1:11:04with MPs to make sure they get out and vote. Of course they knew

1:11:04 > 1:11:09virtually everything. But whether they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:09 > 1:11:12guard yawns in these situations, I don't think they were. It was not

1:11:12 > 1:11:16part of their job. Maybe you need moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:16 > 1:11:22whips.Normally, less than three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:22 > 1:11:24what we'd been talking about. Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:24 > 1:11:28that's set for November 22nd, is that an opportunity for the

1:11:28 > 1:11:32Government to seize back control of the story?Philip Hammond may be

1:11:32 > 1:11:36glad we're not spending too much time talking about the budget. It

1:11:36 > 1:11:40should be an opportunity for the Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:40 > 1:11:44a line under all of this. I think one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:44 > 1:11:48of this so-called scandal for the Government to manage is knowing

1:11:48 > 1:11:52quite how long it will run. In the normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:52 > 1:11:56steam after a couple of weeks. But there are so many potential gayses

1:11:56 > 1:12:01that could come out, it might run longer than that. Rather like the

1:12:01 > 1:12:04expenses scandal. But there is an opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:04 > 1:12:09the' again da. I just don't think Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:09 > 1:12:13he's a very caution Chancellor. At the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:13 > 1:12:18Theresa May's leadership is so weak it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:18 > 1:12:23do anything particularly dram attic why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:23 > 1:12:28budget where they will be hoping not to make any mistakes.You say there

1:12:28 > 1:12:33is disagreement in the Cabinet about what should be in the budget?

1:12:33 > 1:12:39Disagreement between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:39 > 1:12:43witch-hunt is hiding a huge story which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:43 > 1:12:47between Number Ten and number 11. Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:47 > 1:12:51bear to be in the same room with each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:51 > 1:12:55in the budget. It is coming down to housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:55 > 1:13:01be the centrepiece of the budget. They have to get more houses built.

1:13:01 > 1:13:06Philip Hammond wands that bee deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:06 > 1:13:09are borrow up to 50 billion merchandise more for the Government

1:13:09 > 1:13:10to build for themselves.

1:13:10 > 1:13:12That's all for today.

1:13:12 > 1:13:14There's no Sunday Politics next weekend

1:13:14 > 1:13:15while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:15 > 1:13:19but I'll be back here at 11am on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:19 > 1:13:23Until then, bye bye.