:01:29. > :01:32.And on the Sunday Politics in the North - why public sector workers
:01:33. > :01:42.fear plans to negotiate their pay at a local level will leave them on
:01:43. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :29:50.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1687 seconds
:29:50. > :29:54.the wrong side of a north-south Welcome to the Sunday Politics for
:29:54. > :29:57.Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Every week we'll have the top political
:29:57. > :30:04.stories in our part of the world and speaking to the key decision
:30:04. > :30:06.makers at Westminster and in our town halls. Coming up today... Why
:30:06. > :30:09.teachers, nurses and other public sector workers fear plans to
:30:09. > :30:19.negotiate their pay at a local level will leave them on the wrong
:30:19. > :30:20.
:30:20. > :30:24.side of a north-south divide. And why a private company which
:30:24. > :30:33.runs prisons in Australia is being urged NOT to take a bonus payment
:30:33. > :30:35.from the cash-strapped schools budget in a Yorkshire city.
:30:35. > :30:38.Labour's Hilary Benn and Conservative Alec Shelbrooke are
:30:38. > :30:43.here to talk about those subjects and much more on the Sunday
:30:43. > :30:45.Politics. First, should a teacher receive the
:30:45. > :30:53.same salary whether they work in Sheffield or Southampton, or should
:30:53. > :30:55.nurses be paid the same in Barnsley or Bristol? The Government is
:30:55. > :31:00.drawing up proposals to end the process of national pay bargaining
:31:00. > :31:10.for public sector workers. But that's prompted claims that many
:31:10. > :31:21.
:31:21. > :31:27.staff in the north will be worse Hearing Kingston upon Thames, they
:31:27. > :31:31.earn twice as much than those in their northern namesake, Kingston
:31:31. > :31:35.upon Hull. Although many London- based staff and the public sector
:31:35. > :31:38.received a London weighting allowance, most public sector
:31:38. > :31:43.workers are subject to the same rates of pay no matter where they
:31:43. > :31:47.live. But that could soon come to an end. The Chancellor has
:31:47. > :31:52.announced recently that the Government is looking at salaries
:31:52. > :31:57.being negotiated at Al local, rather than national level. We're
:31:57. > :32:02.trying to make sure that pay is fair and is right for the local
:32:02. > :32:06.economy. We have already introduced it, but it was stopped by the last
:32:06. > :32:12.Labour government. In the Court Service, Manchester, they have the
:32:12. > :32:15.local facing pay. It is opposed by teachers like a mad that works in a
:32:15. > :32:19.primary school in East Yorkshire. George Osborne has already said,
:32:19. > :32:24.there is no more money to fund this, so it is not a question of
:32:24. > :32:29.providing extra money for people living in more expensive areas, but
:32:29. > :32:32.instead he must be doing, if there is no more money, is bidding a pay
:32:32. > :32:37.freeze some people that live in poorer areas of the country or
:32:37. > :32:43.giving them a pay cut. It might pay his cot and everyone in the public
:32:43. > :32:47.sector's cake is cut in this area, that will be devastating for the
:32:47. > :32:51.local economy. Critics of national pay bargaining agree that public
:32:51. > :32:59.sector salaries should reflect the cost of living in a particular part
:32:59. > :33:04.of the country, so for example, the average pals Fry's here is
:33:04. > :33:10.currently �93,000. -- the current has prize. In Kingston-upon-Thames,
:33:10. > :33:16.it is over �300,000, around four times as much. The unions are not
:33:16. > :33:19.convinced by this argument. think that teachers, whether they
:33:19. > :33:24.are in Kingston-upon-Thames are Kingston-upon-Hull, or in the home
:33:24. > :33:26.counties, they are all doing the same job, so they should be able to
:33:26. > :33:31.feel they could move to a different part of the country for promotion
:33:31. > :33:35.or to engage in a different part of teaching. Pay bargaining locally
:33:35. > :33:40.means there will be live more disputes and not less. The more we
:33:40. > :33:48.talk Lashley, the more Wrea Green nationally. But do people get
:33:48. > :33:52.different pay in different areas, then it will get more disputes up.
:33:52. > :33:57.This Conservative MP is a former teacher and supports local pay
:33:57. > :34:01.bargaining but insists that certain factors should be looked at.
:34:01. > :34:04.should take into account not just the geographical location, but the
:34:04. > :34:10.difficulties of the job you're doing. If you're teaching in this
:34:10. > :34:15.area with some very tough schools, then you have added pressures as a
:34:15. > :34:20.teacher, and you may not get a nice areas to live in, and you have to
:34:20. > :34:24.take this into account as well. public pay review bodies will now
:34:24. > :34:29.look at the options for making wages more responsive to local
:34:29. > :34:34.labour markets, with a report due in the summer. Following the recent
:34:34. > :34:37.strikes over pensions, the proposed scrapping of national pay
:34:37. > :34:44.bargaining could spark round to win the fight between the unions and
:34:44. > :34:48.the Government. -- Grand two in this fight.
:34:48. > :34:54.And Emma Hardy is with me here, she will have plenty to say to the
:34:54. > :35:00.guests, Hilary Benn, the shadow community secretary and Alec shall
:35:00. > :35:03.Brooke, the Conservative MP. -- Alec Shelbrooke. Is it right that
:35:03. > :35:08.people are paid the same a matter where they are in the country in
:35:08. > :35:12.the public sector? There was always flexibility. London weighting has
:35:12. > :35:17.been around for a long time. But they do not think this is a good
:35:17. > :35:22.idea, because national pay bargaining gives you a scale that
:35:22. > :35:26.employers can use. He will end up leapfrogging, so if somebody pays
:35:26. > :35:30.more, the public sector workers want to work in that area, that
:35:30. > :35:33.happened with the Metropolitan Police some years ago. They
:35:33. > :35:39.increased their pay, and the surrounding police forces and
:35:39. > :35:44.officers were moving, so they had to put up the pay, and it cost more.
:35:44. > :35:48.When the economy is in difficulty, it doesn't make sense, apart from
:35:48. > :35:51.not being fair. Alec Shelbrooke, workers in Yorkshire and
:35:51. > :35:59.Lincolnshire will not be paid more, in many cases they will be paid
:35:59. > :36:06.less, with this proposal. I think it is important to recognise, a
:36:06. > :36:11.point that my colleague made, if you bring pay bargaining down to
:36:11. > :36:16.local area, then when you have particularly tough schools and
:36:16. > :36:20.tough circumstances, if you want to attract people into this, then they
:36:20. > :36:25.should be better rewards for that area, but the point that is clear,
:36:25. > :36:31.it is about making a local decision rather than a national decision.
:36:31. > :36:34.What are you can sense? My main concern is the fact that there is
:36:34. > :36:39.no extra money to pay for these changes that she wanted implement,
:36:39. > :36:46.so we do you get the money from? Where do you take it from? Who
:36:46. > :36:51.makes these decisions? What he will find, people will move to the area
:36:51. > :36:55.where they will get paid more. Or they believe in a cheaper area and
:36:55. > :36:58.commute further, which goes against the green policies that this
:36:58. > :37:03.government is trying to promote at the moment. Does it want people to
:37:03. > :37:08.be commuting down to London because they get paid more while living in
:37:08. > :37:14.the Yorkshire region. Alec Shelbrooke, when you answer on
:37:14. > :37:19.behalf of the Chancellor? No, his responsibilities above my pay
:37:19. > :37:25.grade! If that argument was to be true, them or why would a teacher
:37:25. > :37:29.go to work in some of the tough inner-city schools? They go there
:37:29. > :37:33.because they believe in what they are doing, otherwise, to follow
:37:33. > :37:38.that argument, people will just want to go to leafy suburbs, to
:37:38. > :37:41.schools and the countryside, so it is important that if we go back to
:37:41. > :37:46.this point of allowing it to be decided at a local, regional level,
:37:46. > :37:54.hopefully, some of the changes in an area will come through. North
:37:54. > :37:58.Yorkshire is very different to all or Leeds. That is a good point, if
:37:58. > :38:04.you look at the pay grades in Leeds and Rotherham, they are different.
:38:04. > :38:07.Yes, this is right, there are national pay scales, and there are
:38:07. > :38:11.individual employers will make a decision as well, but this was
:38:11. > :38:19.tried in the NHS but the last Tory government and it did not work and
:38:19. > :38:22.it had to be scrapped. The reasons were very set out, and very clearly
:38:22. > :38:26.come and they do not think it will work, and if it cost more money, it
:38:26. > :38:29.defeats the object. When George Osborne announced this, his central
:38:29. > :38:34.argument appeared to be that the problem is the public sector is
:38:34. > :38:39.paying too much in areas compared to private sector employers are
:38:39. > :38:44.able to afford. He wants the public sector to be paying people less
:38:44. > :38:47.money, and that would not be fair, and it would not be right. You're
:38:47. > :38:52.one of the many teachers that went on strike in November because of
:38:52. > :38:55.pensions, is there something that could cause further strikes? Yes, I
:38:55. > :39:00.believe strongly that this government is politicising a
:39:00. > :39:05.generation. Speaking to be built in the staffroom, meeting people on
:39:05. > :39:08.strike, moderate people that have never been involved, people that
:39:08. > :39:12.were never really interested in politics, if we're honest, and now
:39:12. > :39:16.talking politics all the time, because the public sector are
:39:16. > :39:20.feeling hard hit by this government, by the pensions that you're taking
:39:20. > :39:24.money, but the increase contributions that you want from me,
:39:24. > :39:29.and they came the offer concessions, there are no concessions for me
:39:29. > :39:33.come under 35, nothing. Now you want to take potentially more money
:39:33. > :39:38.from me because in this letter, it was stated there would be no extra
:39:38. > :39:41.funding for the changes from national to regional pay. Alec
:39:41. > :39:49.Shelbrooke, do you think the Government as a friend of the
:39:49. > :39:52.public sector or are you clearly had to hammer them? There has to be
:39:52. > :39:57.a rebalancing of the public sector to the private sector, you could
:39:58. > :40:01.not go on the way they are spending money. But it is important to have
:40:01. > :40:06.this conversation, and there are consultations, nothing has come
:40:07. > :40:13.forward, it is a consultation period. All the arguments will be
:40:13. > :40:19.considered. Thank you. Now what do Australian Prisons, Air
:40:19. > :40:25.Traffic Control in Abu Dhabi and Bradford Schools have in common?
:40:25. > :40:28.The answer is they're all been run at one time by the same company.
:40:28. > :40:31.Serco managed Bradford's schools for ten years. Now it's emerged
:40:31. > :40:34.that taxpayers face shelling out hundreds of thousands of pounds
:40:34. > :40:40.towards a bonus payment owed to the firm at a time when the city's
:40:41. > :40:50.education budget is facing cuts of six million pounds. Here's Sean
:40:51. > :40:56.
:40:56. > :41:01.After a damning Ofsted inspections in the area, the Schools Minister
:41:01. > :41:05.led the New Labour hit squad that took control away from the local
:41:05. > :41:12.authorities and gave it to the private sector for 10 years. Those
:41:12. > :41:22.contracts came to an end last year. Education was among for-profit
:41:22. > :41:26.company, but minutes was manage by a private company, Serco which had
:41:26. > :41:31.targets to raise attainment levels across all ethnic groups and to do
:41:31. > :41:37.with truancy and bad behaviour. original targets were never
:41:37. > :41:42.achieved and has to look not been achieved. -- has still not been
:41:42. > :41:46.achieved. The targets were high, the bonus was low, and as a result,
:41:46. > :41:51.the contract was renegotiated with a lowering of the targets and
:41:51. > :41:58.Ratchford. This led to a massive rise in the incentive payment that
:41:58. > :42:01.Serco received, over �880,000 in the second year, rising to over
:42:02. > :42:06.�900,000 the year after. Then it dropped back to half a million
:42:06. > :42:12.pounds for the remaining years. The payment for the final year is still
:42:12. > :42:16.being calculated. It will have to be paid at a time when Bradford
:42:16. > :42:19.councillors making six-and-a-half million pounds worth of cuts in the
:42:19. > :42:23.central education services, and some of that would not have had to
:42:24. > :42:29.be made if they had not pay the bonuses to the company. It was
:42:29. > :42:32.essentially, not a success. This is taking money from deprived children,
:42:32. > :42:36.from children with special needs, from people that need the money,
:42:36. > :42:40.giving it to these executives. I would urge that company to refuse
:42:40. > :42:45.to take the payment and giving back to the schools that deserve it.
:42:45. > :42:49.This week, Bradford council started consultations on educational cuts
:42:49. > :42:56.in the next financial year. They said they were contractually
:42:56. > :43:00.obliged to pay their last incentive. Meanwhile, Serco, but made �123
:43:00. > :43:04.million profits in the first half of last year from many contracts
:43:04. > :43:10.all over the world, defends its Yorkshire record saying significant
:43:10. > :43:15.improvements were made in the 10 years of education in Bradford. Do
:43:15. > :43:18.you think the Labour government then got the best deal when it got
:43:18. > :43:23.rid of the schools in Leeds and Bradford to a private company for a
:43:23. > :43:26.period of 10 years? I can speak very knowledgeably about Leeds,
:43:26. > :43:30.there were problems and the Department of Education and we have
:43:30. > :43:35.seen big improvements in the City and in the performance of children
:43:35. > :43:39.at primary and secondary level. The company did a very good job and
:43:39. > :43:44.Nigel Richardson is doing a great job now. The story in Bradford is
:43:44. > :43:48.not like a well negotiated contract by the Conservative council,
:43:48. > :43:52.including the fact it was renegotiated to increase the bonus
:43:52. > :43:55.payments that went to Serco. The only people that can answer this
:43:56. > :44:00.question how the Tory leaders from back then. Alec Shelbrooke, should
:44:00. > :44:05.the Government intervened to stop Serco getting this final payment
:44:05. > :44:09.when Bradford schools are facing �6 million worth of cuts? What is very
:44:09. > :44:16.important to understand his what targets were set and what the bonus
:44:16. > :44:21.payments were paid out? The targets were not even met in the first year,
:44:22. > :44:25.and although a small bonus was renegotiated and move forward, as
:44:25. > :44:29.much as intervention sounds attractive, we're set within a
:44:29. > :44:33.legal framework that makes it very hard, so before making those sort
:44:33. > :44:37.of pronouncements, it is important to understand what the targets were
:44:37. > :44:40.and if they have been met? If the company achieved what it was asked
:44:40. > :44:46.to do, it will be exceptionally difficult to try and reverse that
:44:46. > :44:50.decision. We will see more of these bonus payments come a bit of that
:44:50. > :44:56.part of the NHS being moved off to private companies and this will
:44:56. > :45:00.happen more and more. It is important to understand that some
:45:00. > :45:05.projects are being reviewed and they have not worked in the best
:45:05. > :45:09.way forward, but the agreement between myself and Hillary, that
:45:09. > :45:13.some projects but a lot of investment into the public sector,
:45:13. > :45:18.but they were not perhaps working in the best way. The point is, just
:45:18. > :45:20.because it doesn't appear that this particular situation in Bradford
:45:20. > :45:25.has and worked well, it has not been we should throw the baby out
:45:25. > :45:28.with the bathwater. How do we make sure that taxpayers get a better
:45:28. > :45:33.deal and they're not stomach the contract like this where private
:45:33. > :45:37.companies get a bonus payment when they did not arguably deliver the
:45:37. > :45:40.results? You need to negotiate good contracts and the first place. The
:45:40. > :45:48.reason this is a problem now is because of the local government
:45:48. > :45:51.cuts and they need to be made. It is unfair that the 10 % have the
:45:51. > :45:56.most deprived areas and the country are facing a reduction than the 10
:45:56. > :46:02.% in the least deprived. If you look at the map of England, you
:46:02. > :46:06.look at the different parts and the smallest cuts are on the south and
:46:06. > :46:16.the largest in the north. Well let's reflect on the political
:46:16. > :46:19.
:46:19. > :46:22.events of the past week. Len Tingle has the news in 60 seconds.
:46:23. > :46:28.Had the �33 billion plan for high speed rail 2 Yorkshire come off the
:46:28. > :46:34.tracks? On Tuesday it was announced initial legislation would only
:46:34. > :46:36.include a read as far as Birmingham, but by Friday, the Chancellor
:46:36. > :46:41.reassured that tracks to Leeds and Sheffield would be included once
:46:42. > :46:46.the consultation is finished. here to say absolutely, we want to
:46:46. > :46:52.bring high-speed rail 2 Leeds and it is a very important part of
:46:52. > :46:57.connecting the Yorkshire economy to the Midlands. Another high-profile
:46:57. > :47:03.casualty of Twitter this week, the most serious Tory councillor
:47:03. > :47:07.tweeter that people in the public gallery were read cards and he was
:47:07. > :47:12.suspended for 20 weeks. Doncaster are trying to preserve jobs by
:47:12. > :47:18.asking 7,000 staff that earned more than �15,000 a year to take a 4%
:47:18. > :47:23.pay cut. It has not gone down too well. Another week and another row
:47:23. > :47:28.over rubbish, in Sheffield this time, has plans to drop weekly
:47:28. > :47:33.collections are put forward to save money over two years.
:47:33. > :47:36.High-speed rail was a big talking point, Alec Shelbrooke, why has the
:47:36. > :47:40.Government not legislated for the whole of the route to Leeds and
:47:40. > :47:45.Manchester, because you're only legislating to Birmingham in the
:47:45. > :47:49.first stage. It is so we can get on with the job, very simply. It is
:47:49. > :47:53.quicker to bring a hybrid Bills into Parliament to get us to
:47:53. > :47:56.Birmingham and get on with that. When that is happening, the
:47:56. > :48:00.planning for the routing from Birmingham to Leeds and Manchester
:48:00. > :48:04.can take place. Another bill can be brought him. The Government is
:48:04. > :48:08.committed to bringing this to Leeds and Manchester and so is the
:48:08. > :48:11.official opposition. It has got cross-party support and will happen,
:48:11. > :48:17.but in order for it to happen as quickly as possible, the best way
:48:17. > :48:22.it was to do it in two stages. you totally sold on this idea of
:48:22. > :48:25.spending �33 billion? Yes, because we started the process in
:48:25. > :48:30.government and I am pleased that the new government is committed to
:48:30. > :48:33.it. It is all about the economic future of this region, because
:48:33. > :48:37.transport is fundamental for getting people to invest and
:48:37. > :48:44.enabling business to happen and we need to get on with it. It will
:48:44. > :48:50.provide jobs and we need these a lot in the economy. In Sheffield,
:48:50. > :48:55.fortnightly Bank elections, will this be popular? -- bin collections.
:48:55. > :49:01.This is best discussed at a local level. To support fortnightly
:49:02. > :49:05.collections? If it works, I am happy to support it. The
:49:05. > :49:09.extraordinary thing about Eric Pickles, these tough times, we are
:49:09. > :49:13.talking about public spending, he has found a quarter of a billion
:49:13. > :49:17.pounds that he said he will spend and give to you if you go back to
:49:17. > :49:22.weekly bin collections. He talks about localism, but he thinks he
:49:22. > :49:27.knows better. A Eric Pickles will not be happy, nobody is taking him
:49:27. > :49:33.up on this extra money? It is down to the electorate to cast their
:49:33. > :49:38.decision in May! On that note, I will not ask you what you think of
:49:38. > :49:41.the new programme so far! Thank you. That's about it from us. You can
:49:41. > :49:45.keep up to date with all latest political news and views in our