:01:35. > :01:40.Coming up in half-an-hour on the the Sunday politics, we look at the
:01:40. > :01:50.deal that will see a private security firm takeover a big chunk
:01:50. > :01:50.
:01:50. > :35:42.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2032 seconds
:35:42. > :35:47.Good afternoon. You are watching the Sunday Politics before
:35:47. > :35:51.Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and the Midlands. We will find out why some
:35:51. > :35:55.councils are put in their bills up despite being offered extra money
:35:55. > :36:01.from the Government. We are asking if this is the future of policing
:36:01. > :36:05.as a private security firm is given the job of building and operating a
:36:06. > :36:12.new police station. Lincolnshire police have just signed �200
:36:12. > :36:17.million contract for many of the 4th's functions to be outsourced to
:36:17. > :36:23.private company G4 Security. Backroom tasks like personnel and
:36:23. > :36:27.IT management will be taken over by the firm. The deal also includes
:36:27. > :36:31.custody services and the partnership expected to last for 10
:36:31. > :36:37.years. Is it revolutionary forward- thinking or a scramble to save cash
:36:37. > :36:45.which could hit Policing. These officers in a prison in Wales
:36:45. > :36:49.are just two of the 575,000 people who work for G4 Security worldwide.
:36:49. > :36:53.They are the second largest private company in the world. In time most
:36:53. > :36:59.of the staff answering 999 calls at Lincolnshire police headquarters
:36:59. > :37:09.will go on to their books. G4 Security gets the �200 million over
:37:09. > :37:22.
:37:22. > :37:29.10 years to run civilian departments.
:37:29. > :37:32.Four unions protecting staff terms and conditions is paramount. This
:37:32. > :37:40.is a multi-million-pound police station which G4 Security plans to
:37:40. > :37:50.build and operate. They will also take charge of the civilian workers.
:37:50. > :38:04.
:38:04. > :38:09.There is no guarantee of job security.
:38:09. > :38:13.Changes to job descriptions may mean a pay and conditions change.
:38:13. > :38:23.Meanwhile G4 Security has given an assurance that pensions with
:38:23. > :38:32.
:38:32. > :38:38.Lincolnshire police will continue. In the long term it would be a
:38:39. > :38:48.money spinner for the company but unions have basic concerns.
:38:48. > :38:57.Not the changes will be, for example role changes. And the way
:38:57. > :39:02.people are expected to do the job. Are you happy with having G4
:39:02. > :39:07.Security staff handling people in custody? Completely comfortable.
:39:07. > :39:11.They have been doing that for some years now. They provide transport
:39:11. > :39:17.to and from prisons. They are highly competent and highly skilled
:39:17. > :39:22.people and their performance proves that. This is one of the most
:39:22. > :39:27.radical steps in policing in 100 years. He it is born out of a cut
:39:27. > :39:30.in government funding and the contract took nine months to put
:39:30. > :39:38.together. Whether it lasts a full 10 years with all of its promises
:39:38. > :39:43.intact, the bookies have yet to put odds-on.
:39:43. > :39:49.Our guests today are Gerry Sutcliffe, Julian Sturdy and in our
:39:49. > :39:55.London studio, we have Simon Reed, the vice-chairman of the Police
:39:55. > :39:59.Federation. Gerry Sutcliffe. You are a former Home Office minister.
:39:59. > :40:02.We are told that privatising back- office staff were put more uniform
:40:02. > :40:12.officers back on the beat, isn't that a good thing? That is not what
:40:12. > :40:14.
:40:14. > :40:17.will happen. Where we have to be concerned is if the line moves,
:40:17. > :40:22.that people are covering job that frontline officers would do. There
:40:22. > :40:27.is an issue of public confidence. Are they having to do this because
:40:27. > :40:31.they are facing cuts, which means cuts in public -- frontline police
:40:31. > :40:35.numbers. We are seeing this all over. I worry about the motivation
:40:36. > :40:40.of why they are doing it. The principle of back copies and IT, I
:40:40. > :40:46.can understand. Let us address the issue of public confidence. Will
:40:46. > :40:50.the public have confidence in a partly privatised police service?
:40:50. > :40:53.There will be proper checks and balances in place and that is very
:40:53. > :40:57.important. You have got to realise that we are in a difficult economic
:40:57. > :41:02.climate and we have to make spending cuts. We need innovative
:41:02. > :41:06.ways of making those cuts but at the same time protecting frontline
:41:06. > :41:11.services. This shows innovative thinking to try and make sure that
:41:11. > :41:17.we keep frontline officers on the beat and get officers away from the
:41:17. > :41:22.desks and on the streets, where they want to be and serving the
:41:23. > :41:25.community. At the same time we have to drive deficiencies. There are
:41:25. > :41:29.difficulties in the custodial part of it and that is where the line
:41:29. > :41:35.gets blurred. When you start getting into custody of situations
:41:35. > :41:40.where there officers entitlements are blurred, that is difficult and
:41:40. > :41:45.it affects public confidence. is why we must make sure we have
:41:45. > :41:49.checks and balances in place. It is very important. The motivation is
:41:49. > :41:53.not finding something new but it is the police cuts. While we accept
:41:53. > :41:59.there have to be some cuts, this 20% I think is having a dramatic
:41:59. > :42:05.effect on morale. But us bring Simon Reed in. According to the
:42:05. > :42:10.authority, this deal will free up 97% of the uniformed officers to
:42:10. > :42:14.return to frontline duty. This is where the public wants them to be.
:42:14. > :42:19.Indeed it does. We have to look more closely at the figures and
:42:19. > :42:25.what they actually mean. As an organisation, we do not have any
:42:25. > :42:29.ideological opposition to this. What we must bear in mind is that
:42:29. > :42:34.police staff do a vital role. It is a vital role in providing support
:42:34. > :42:39.to police officers and answering phones and forensics and we rely on
:42:39. > :42:44.them. We have two concerns. First of all the resilience to continue
:42:44. > :42:48.to do this when demand get high and we have unexpected incidents and
:42:48. > :42:53.disorder, can police officers and the public still rely on the
:42:53. > :42:57.support staff to be there when we need them? Equally, we have heard
:42:57. > :43:05.this week from colleagues and police officers that this is a
:43:05. > :43:10.private company who need to make a profit and you have shareholders to
:43:10. > :43:13.satisfy. This is always a concern with public services are privatised.
:43:13. > :43:18.Will the company put the bottom line before the Thin Blue Line?
:43:18. > :43:22.Ultimately it has to put services burst. If it does not then it will
:43:22. > :43:25.not achieve what it has set out to achieve and that is what I said at
:43:25. > :43:30.the beginning. We have to make sure with anything like this that the
:43:30. > :43:33.proper checks and balances are in place to make sure that it is
:43:33. > :43:36.delivering the services that need to be delivered. We have to keep
:43:36. > :43:40.public confidence because that is absolutely vital in such an
:43:40. > :43:44.important sector as the police force. We must maintain public
:43:44. > :43:49.combatants. Ultimately we have to deliver the savings. This is a way
:43:49. > :43:54.of doing that and delivering the services and keeping frontline so -
:43:54. > :43:58.- officers on the streets. When Labour were in power, if you
:43:58. > :44:05.brought -- you brought public companies -- private companies in
:44:05. > :44:10.to run many services. Some of these have had to go back into public
:44:10. > :44:12.sector hands. We are all for the organisation but when it is issues
:44:12. > :44:16.around the public safety and confidence, particularly with the
:44:17. > :44:20.police at this time, it is very difficult it. The worry for me is
:44:20. > :44:23.that there has been no consultation and the company have put forward
:44:23. > :44:26.the proposal and the police authority had accepted it because
:44:26. > :44:30.they need to find these cuts. They have not been enough discussion
:44:30. > :44:35.about the future of the police in relation to public confidence. As
:44:35. > :44:40.has been said, there are issues around the chain of command and
:44:40. > :44:43.extreme accidents or supports the - - sports events where you need to
:44:43. > :44:49.have the police there and then and you wonder whether line blurs.
:44:49. > :44:53.Simon Reed, your body represents rank-and-file officers, were you a
:44:53. > :44:59.pose any further privatisation of the police force? We would work
:44:59. > :45:04.with -- we have worked with private companies for quite some time now.
:45:04. > :45:08.They run custody suites up and down the country as well as IT projects.
:45:08. > :45:13.We are used to working with them. But it all goes back to what has
:45:13. > :45:16.said originally. It is about them providing a service and our concern
:45:16. > :45:20.is primarily, whether it is a private company or whether it
:45:20. > :45:24.remains directly employed, whether it has the resilience. We need to
:45:24. > :45:30.provide the service to the police officers and the public and that is
:45:30. > :45:34.our concern. It is about service to the public. Thank you for joining
:45:34. > :45:38.us from London. Our two MPs will stay with us because it is time now
:45:38. > :45:48.to catch up with the week's political news. Here is our round-
:45:48. > :45:49.
:45:49. > :45:54.up in 60 seconds. Labour MP Eric Joyce is facing an
:45:54. > :45:59.assault charge following a disturbance in the House of Commons
:45:59. > :46:03.bar. The Conservative MP for Pudsey, steward Andrew was allegedly head-
:46:03. > :46:06.butted. A number of MPs witnessed the incident and gave evidence to
:46:06. > :46:11.the police. Meanwhile the Speaker of the House of Commons has called
:46:11. > :46:17.for MPs to set a better example to young people. John Bercow was in
:46:17. > :46:20.Hull to mark the 50th anniversary of the University's politics
:46:20. > :46:26.department. York MP Hugh Bayley once Parliament to discuss why the
:46:26. > :46:31.Yorkshire Air Ambulance has to pay VAT on its sizable fuel bill. There
:46:31. > :46:35.is a legal anomaly which allows lifeboats to avoid paying VAT on
:46:35. > :46:45.fuel. More than 10,000 people have signed the petition and it is going
:46:45. > :46:48.
:46:49. > :46:53.up by 1,000 signatures every day. We cannot discuss the Eric Joyce
:46:53. > :46:57.allegations for legal reasons but John Bercow suggests that behaviour
:46:57. > :47:02.amongst members in general is getting worse. What do you say to
:47:02. > :47:06.that? I see hard-working MPs from all parties doing the best for
:47:06. > :47:11.their constituents but at times they are incidents that the press
:47:11. > :47:15.want to blow into even bigger incidents and we get a lot of bad
:47:15. > :47:18.press when a lot of good work goes on for our constituents. It is an
:47:18. > :47:22.issue that we have to address and I'm sure we will do it in the
:47:22. > :47:29.coming months. Let us see what the speaker had to say.
:47:29. > :47:34.The negative is when we spray-paint our own shop window by behaviour
:47:34. > :47:39.that is excessive, far too noisy, S Arab League -- apparently
:47:39. > :47:43.disrespectful of each other. We have to move away from that. Julian
:47:43. > :47:47.Sturdy, you are a relatively and relatively young MP, do you think
:47:47. > :47:53.the behaviour of some MPs is putting young people off politics?
:47:53. > :47:56.I agree with what Gerry said, MPs work very hard down in the House of
:47:56. > :48:01.Commons and there was a lot of good work and a lot of cross-party work
:48:01. > :48:05.that is not really seen. We get the theatre of Prime Minister's
:48:05. > :48:10.Questions time which can be very noisy but in select committees
:48:10. > :48:15.there is a lot of good cross-party working going on. I think
:48:15. > :48:19.ultimately these incidents will tarnish the represent -- reputation
:48:20. > :48:23.of all MPs sadly but it is up to asked to get the message out that
:48:23. > :48:29.there is a lot of good hard work and cross-party, MPs working
:48:29. > :48:36.together on the issues that matter. I'll be going to get a debate on
:48:36. > :48:44.whether the Yorkshire Air arm bidders should pay Bat? I think we
:48:44. > :48:48.have to see some flexibility here. I absolutely agree. As a
:48:48. > :48:58.Conservative MP I support this so it is cross-party working and a
:48:58. > :48:58.
:48:58. > :49:01.support we really do need it. catch up with the political news
:49:01. > :49:04.from the past week. Here's our round-up in 60 seconds.
:49:04. > :49:06.It's the time of year when our local councils get on the annual
:49:06. > :49:09.blood-letting that is officially called "setting the budget". In
:49:09. > :49:11.many places hundreds of jobs have been cut and many services reduced
:49:11. > :49:14.or abolished altogether.The Government is a attempting to
:49:14. > :49:17.soften the blow by offering a substantial grant as compensation
:49:17. > :49:20.to every authority agreeing not to put up its council tax. Most have
:49:20. > :49:28.taken the money but there are a few places where that will not happen.
:49:28. > :49:31.Len Tingle's been to three of them. This Government talks about below
:49:31. > :49:35.Cork things so they have to respect when a local decision is made
:49:35. > :49:39.democratically. The leader of York City Council has turned down a
:49:39. > :49:44.government offer of a �1.8 million grant aimed at enabling him to
:49:44. > :49:50.freeze local council tax this year. Instead he is making local people
:49:50. > :49:54.pay more. Can we actually afford to keep libraries, leisure centres and
:49:54. > :50:01.children's services open? If we took this money this year it would
:50:01. > :50:04.mean a further increase in council tax next year of about 5%. They are
:50:04. > :50:10.not being realistic about what is actually happening out in people's
:50:10. > :50:16.homes and how difficult it is. Just a two other councils in this
:50:16. > :50:19.area are expected to refuse the government money to end the tax
:50:19. > :50:25.freeze. Richmond council here in North Yorkshire is one of them. It
:50:25. > :50:29.is led by independence and wants to add 3% to everybody's council bills.
:50:29. > :50:33.Pressure groups are so angry they have organised petitions against
:50:34. > :50:39.the move. They will be voted on by councillors next month. Take the
:50:39. > :50:43.money this year and you spend a year working on the figures and the
:50:43. > :50:47.services and the delivery and management and you find the cut in
:50:47. > :50:54.the cost. It does not mean you're going to have to put the costs up
:50:54. > :50:58.to the residents. I think it is disgusting. I pay enough as it is
:50:58. > :51:03.now. By bins only get tempted once a fortnight. I would like some
:51:03. > :51:07.justification as to why they want to put it up. Chesterfield in north
:51:07. > :51:11.Derbyshire. It is expected to confirm it is the third council to
:51:11. > :51:16.defy the government and put up its local taxes at the budget meeting
:51:16. > :51:19.next week. Council bills up 3.5%. In the long run the ruling Labour
:51:20. > :51:25.group says that as the government grant is just for one year, bills
:51:25. > :51:30.would have to go up even higher next year. It is probably to pay
:51:30. > :51:34.for their wages, that is what it is. They do things for themselves,
:51:34. > :51:39.don't they? They do nothing about the public they are serving. A load
:51:39. > :51:44.of rubbish. People cannot afford to pay it can make. We pay enough as
:51:44. > :51:48.it is. It is going to be more money. Wages are not going up but food is
:51:48. > :51:53.going up and petrol is going up, where will we find the extra money?
:51:53. > :51:56.That is the difficulty for the councils like Chesterfield's
:51:57. > :52:03.claiming increased local taxes now will be better in the long run.
:52:03. > :52:07.Time is not on their side. The argument there from the Labour
:52:07. > :52:11.run York is that if they take the money this year they will only have
:52:11. > :52:15.to put council tax bills up more next year. Have they got a point?
:52:15. > :52:21.No I do not think they have a point. I'm angry they have turned his
:52:21. > :52:24.money down. You have got to look at it economic people stop it is
:52:24. > :52:28.difficult up there. There are pay freezes in the public and private
:52:28. > :52:33.sectors and the cost of living is going up. For Labour to turn down
:52:33. > :52:37.this money, this grant from the Government, to put a council tax
:52:37. > :52:41.freeze in place is morally irresponsible in my mind. The money
:52:41. > :52:45.would have given the council another 12 months to find the
:52:45. > :52:50.efficiency savings that it needs to find. They have thrown that away
:52:50. > :52:53.and I am really disappointed. Councils are offered this money to
:52:53. > :52:56.freeze the bills so surely they could take it? They were initially
:52:56. > :53:01.offered for years money and now it has been reduced to one year. The
:53:01. > :53:05.problem is the Bill will go up next year because of the cuts in the
:53:05. > :53:09.services. This goes back to my old sparring partner Eric Pickles
:53:09. > :53:13.because he promised those councils there would be the money for four
:53:13. > :53:17.years and that money has now gone. Many cities are looking at their
:53:17. > :53:21.prospects and dealing with it the way it that they see fit. It is not
:53:21. > :53:26.just the other councils. In Scarborough they have had a U-turn
:53:26. > :53:29.because of pressure put on them by Eric Pickles. At think it is wrong.
:53:29. > :53:34.Local government needs to plan services over a period of time and
:53:34. > :53:40.they cannot do it year on year. I think the decision to take it down
:53:40. > :53:43.from four years was fundamentally wrong. Are they playing politics?
:53:43. > :53:47.Actually it is the people you cause the squeeze Middle who will suffer
:53:47. > :53:51.by paying higher bills. I do not think so. In Bradford we have been
:53:51. > :53:53.able to take the money because we have been able to plan other things
:53:53. > :53:56.but the difficulty for each council is they have different ways of
:53:57. > :54:00.looking at their budgets and I think the position in your is that
:54:00. > :54:05.they obviously say that if a freeze the council tax this year will lead
:54:05. > :54:10.to bigger problems next year. were having local elections in York
:54:10. > :54:16.in May, would they have taken the money or not? There is a question
:54:16. > :54:20.mark about whether they would have done that if there were local
:54:20. > :54:26.elections going on. There is politics going on. Eric Pickles has
:54:26. > :54:34.cut the money so why do it? We know the economic situation facing the
:54:34. > :54:38.country but the important thing is that local authorities have to find
:54:38. > :54:43.the efficiency savings that they need to make in the long term. That
:54:43. > :54:45.is not just salami-slicing. The city council have cut money into
:54:45. > :54:50.the voluntary services. They have to think about it carefully because
:54:50. > :54:56.that is a waste of money. The money that can go to voluntary services,
:54:56. > :54:59.if they cut it they will have to pick up the pieces. You as well as
:54:59. > :55:02.I have been a councillor and you know that councils need time to
:55:02. > :55:05.look at their budgets and they cannot do year-on-year. If you do
:55:05. > :55:11.not know where the money will come from, you have to look at the next
:55:11. > :55:13.two or three years. That is the problem. The government should give
:55:13. > :55:17.the council's a certainty for three-year funding. We have to
:55:17. > :55:21.leave that debate now. Thank you for your time here, please do not
:55:21. > :55:25.fight in the bar afterwards! That's about it from us. You can
:55:25. > :55:28.keep up to date with all latest political news and views in our