0:01:30 > 0:01:34And going up in half an hour. We look at both campaigns ahead of
0:01:34 > 0:01:44those it's referendum on whether for Yorkshire cities ought to that
0:01:44 > 0:01:44
0:01:44 > 0:29:41Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1676 seconds
0:29:41 > 0:29:45Hello and welcome. You're watching the Sunday Politics for a dour and
0:29:46 > 0:29:49Lincolnshire. Coming up: we look at both campaigns ahead of thirsted's
0:29:49 > 0:29:53historic referendum on whether for Yorkshire cities should have
0:29:53 > 0:29:57elected mayors. In four days' time, voters in
0:29:57 > 0:30:01Bradford, Leeds, Sheffield and Wakefield will decide whether they
0:30:01 > 0:30:05want a directly elected mayor for to run their local services,
0:30:05 > 0:30:08changing forever the way democracy is delivered in those cities.
0:30:08 > 0:30:14People in Doncaster will also decide whether they wanted to keep
0:30:14 > 0:30:19their elected mayor. Our guest today from the Yes campaign,
0:30:19 > 0:30:23Jonathan straight and Leeds are based entrepreneur. From the No
0:30:23 > 0:30:27campaign, Jack Scott, a Labour councillor from Sheffield, and we
0:30:27 > 0:30:31have a genuinely undecided voter, Chris Glenn chairs the Federation
0:30:31 > 0:30:34of Small businesses in West Yorkshire and he is based in
0:30:34 > 0:30:40Wakefield. Jonathan Street, tell us why we
0:30:40 > 0:30:45should have directly elected mayors. I was born in bread and Leeds at --
0:30:45 > 0:30:48in Leeds and I am passionate about the city. I think needs -- Leeds
0:30:48 > 0:30:52needs a voice locally and internationally and an elected
0:30:52 > 0:30:56mayor is a great way to achieve that. Jacques court, why should
0:30:56 > 0:31:00people vote No? I think there are lots of reasons why a directly-
0:31:00 > 0:31:04elected mayor will be bad for Sheffield and the other cities. The
0:31:04 > 0:31:09main reason is that it puts far too much power into the hands of one
0:31:09 > 0:31:12person that she cannot get rid of. He Chris Glenn, tell us why you are
0:31:12 > 0:31:18undecided. At the moment, there is not enough information out there
0:31:18 > 0:31:21about what the mayor will do and what his powers will be. You can
0:31:21 > 0:31:26have a situation where you have a lot of power in one person's hand,
0:31:26 > 0:31:31which can be a good or bad thing, we do not know how they will use it.
0:31:31 > 0:31:35Let us here in more detail by voters should take part in this
0:31:35 > 0:31:39referendum. Our cameras went out onto the streets of Leeds with
0:31:39 > 0:31:42Samuel Fisher, the campaign director of the Yes lobby.
0:31:42 > 0:31:51We have been invited by the Guardian to be a panel member in
0:31:51 > 0:31:55their live debate about elected mayors. I am running an independent
0:31:55 > 0:32:00campaign. I am not representing any political party our interest group.
0:32:00 > 0:32:04I am a small interest honour who is passionate about the city and
0:32:04 > 0:32:08thinks that this is such an important issue that someone needs
0:32:08 > 0:32:14to stand up and say something about it. With a limited budget, we
0:32:14 > 0:32:20cannot go around refloating the city are putting up posters, so the
0:32:20 > 0:32:26benefits of social media are that you can reach people who would --
0:32:26 > 0:32:30who you would not otherwise reach. We had just come out from the
0:32:30 > 0:32:36online discussion on the Guardian website. Of course now we have to
0:32:36 > 0:32:40meet some real people and see what they think. We are raising the
0:32:40 > 0:32:45profile of Leeds as a hard Yorkshire. I do not think it will
0:32:46 > 0:32:49make any difference whatsoever. will be voting know. Is that a
0:32:49 > 0:32:56definite? They will be able to make things happen and raise the profile
0:32:56 > 0:33:01of the city. You will have to let a person who is from the City, who
0:33:01 > 0:33:06was born and bred in Leeds. There have been many visits from
0:33:06 > 0:33:10ministers and Lords, from all parties, coming to the cities in
0:33:10 > 0:33:15Yorkshire promoting the case for a mayor. The strong argument for
0:33:15 > 0:33:21having a mayor is democracy. At the moment, people do not know what the
0:33:21 > 0:33:25leader of the council is. We have this very indirect way of producing
0:33:25 > 0:33:29leaders of councils. We have done it in London now for the last 12
0:33:29 > 0:33:33years and it has been a huge success. This is a once in a
0:33:33 > 0:33:37generation opportunity to bring real change. We believe this will
0:33:37 > 0:33:42raise the profile leads around the world and to deliver prosperity to
0:33:42 > 0:33:46the City as a whole. You just go straight to Jack Scott
0:33:46 > 0:33:50from the No campaign. We heard from a former Labour Cabinet minister
0:33:50 > 0:33:56there who said that only one in seven people could name their
0:33:56 > 0:34:00council leader. Do not cities need a strong figurehead? Yes. And they
0:34:00 > 0:34:05need strong leadership as well. If I thought that elected mayors would
0:34:05 > 0:34:09help deliver that, I would back them in a moment. My strong belief
0:34:09 > 0:34:14is that an elected mayor would create a dictator who has no checks
0:34:14 > 0:34:17and balances whatsoever. He would be able to do what ever you wanted.
0:34:17 > 0:34:22Councillors would have no power whatsoever and would not be able to
0:34:22 > 0:34:28speak out for their communities. On top of that, there would be a
0:34:28 > 0:34:32massive cost. What is an elected to dictator are? It is nonsense. If
0:34:32 > 0:34:37someone is elected then they are elected democratically. There put
0:34:38 > 0:34:43in power by the people for two provide a service for the people. I
0:34:43 > 0:34:48believe this would put lids on the map. Do you think this campaign has
0:34:48 > 0:34:52caught the public's imagination? I have had not one single leaflet
0:34:52 > 0:34:56from any of the campaigns. Certainly the campaign has not been
0:34:56 > 0:35:01very well promoted. The fact that there is a referendum has not been
0:35:01 > 0:35:05very well promoted. I picked it up through watching our Twitter ft at
0:35:05 > 0:35:10the office and I think it is really a social media and that kind of
0:35:10 > 0:35:14thing that has put -- that has promoted this. You were using
0:35:14 > 0:35:20Twitter and the yes campaign is very reliant on social media, but
0:35:20 > 0:35:25does that not alienate a large section of the population? I would
0:35:25 > 0:35:29not say that this was the only way that the issue was being promoted.
0:35:29 > 0:35:33Certainly this is a more conventional form of media. Twitter
0:35:33 > 0:35:39is a good way of engaging with large numbers of people and I would
0:35:39 > 0:35:42not be dismissive of it as a form of communication. I Kerem this week
0:35:42 > 0:35:46about the cabin we have had in Sheffield, but certainly would have
0:35:46 > 0:35:50been out doing more traditional campaigning. Knocking on doors and
0:35:50 > 0:35:54talking to people. One of the things that people have told me it
0:35:54 > 0:36:00really clearly is that they are not very interested in this and that is
0:36:00 > 0:36:03not just a coincidence, the reason, certainly in Sheffield, is actually
0:36:04 > 0:36:09because by and large they're happy with it the system we have got at
0:36:09 > 0:36:14the moment. We have seen tremendous progress in our northern cities.
0:36:14 > 0:36:17They have had a fantastic decade and all the improvements that we
0:36:17 > 0:36:21are seen where achieved without a mayor. You really think that people
0:36:21 > 0:36:25are genuinely happy with what goes on in town halls at the moment?
0:36:25 > 0:36:30can only talk about what people say to me and that is that they have a
0:36:30 > 0:36:34civic mayor already, why would the change that when it is a system
0:36:34 > 0:36:39that we have had for 150 years. People also say that there are
0:36:39 > 0:36:43checks and balances that are on a current leader of a council at the
0:36:43 > 0:36:49moment that are really important. Chris Clegg, of what you make of
0:36:49 > 0:36:53which have heard? I think that there is some ballot things within
0:36:53 > 0:36:58that but it is accused of balancing up arguments against the same
0:36:59 > 0:37:04things that they are saying. Having a single person that can drive
0:37:04 > 0:37:07things forward can be a good thing, but once again it is the checks and
0:37:07 > 0:37:11balances side of it. If you get the right person and you would probably
0:37:11 > 0:37:15have some great times with the mayor but if you get the wrong
0:37:15 > 0:37:19person there is the danger that they could make a whole lot of mess.
0:37:19 > 0:37:25And therein lies the danger of democracy! But would it help you as
0:37:25 > 0:37:31a businessman to help you know -- for you to know who was running
0:37:31 > 0:37:35Europe's City? I think it would. At the moment there are so many people
0:37:35 > 0:37:39involved that it is difficult to know who is doing what and so many
0:37:39 > 0:37:43things over lack each other. When you talk about education and skills,
0:37:43 > 0:37:48there are so many places that deal with those things it is sometimes
0:37:48 > 0:37:52hard to know who to speak to. think that is a really important
0:37:52 > 0:37:56point. All elected mayor is, he does not get rid of that or the
0:37:56 > 0:38:01Cabinet or the MPs or any of the quangos or anything, all an elected
0:38:01 > 0:38:09mayor does it add another layer of bureaucracy. Let us hear more about
0:38:09 > 0:38:13by Jack's campaign wants to keep the status quo in the tunnels.
0:38:13 > 0:38:17in our town halls. What we are saying very clearly is that we do
0:38:17 > 0:38:20not think Sheffield needs an elected mayor and talking to people,
0:38:20 > 0:38:26they are very clear that they do not want one. I do not think these
0:38:26 > 0:38:30arguments apply just to Sheffield. I think the big problems you get to
0:38:30 > 0:38:37an elected mayor apply in all the other cities as well. Our campaign
0:38:37 > 0:38:46is opposed to an elected mayor anywhere. Whatever David Blunkett
0:38:46 > 0:38:50is for, I am against it. It is an extra layer of Government that is
0:38:50 > 0:38:55being imposed with his salary around �70,000. That is more than
0:38:55 > 0:38:58the leader and Deputy Leader put together in Sheffield. I cannot see
0:38:58 > 0:39:03how having an extra layer of bureaucracy and a high salary could
0:39:03 > 0:39:08lead to anything other than an increasing costs. A mayor would
0:39:08 > 0:39:12have the power to adopt numerous advisers to help them and all the
0:39:12 > 0:39:18existing officers would continue in their post, so I cannot see how
0:39:18 > 0:39:23this is anything other than a recipe for an increase in costs.
0:39:23 > 0:39:28The mayor would get more money than those to put together? Yes. Are you
0:39:28 > 0:39:32going to vote for a mayor or against? Against. If some of the
0:39:32 > 0:39:35feedback we have been getting from people is really interesting.
0:39:35 > 0:39:39People have a whole range of reasons for not wanting a mayor. A
0:39:39 > 0:39:43lot of people do not know that there is a referendum on and a lot
0:39:43 > 0:39:46of people are not interested. People are saying to me that the
0:39:46 > 0:39:52system we have got at the moment has worked for hundreds of years
0:39:52 > 0:39:56and it is not broken. People say to me that in Sheffield there are big
0:39:56 > 0:40:00problems with mayors. In Doncaster, a whole range of problems with an
0:40:00 > 0:40:07elected mayor, as so that is a factor in how people are going to
0:40:07 > 0:40:13vote on Thursday. Jonathan, we heard there that the
0:40:13 > 0:40:17current council system is not broke so why does it need fixing? I think
0:40:17 > 0:40:22it is broke. No one knows who is in charge. The person who is in charge
0:40:22 > 0:40:27will change from time to time and sometimes with great frequency, so
0:40:27 > 0:40:32there is no continuity. There is no strategy, no leadership. There is
0:40:32 > 0:40:35nothing that represents a city on a global stage in the way that an
0:40:36 > 0:40:40elected mayor, the correct elected mayor, would do.
0:40:40 > 0:40:44We are still going to be electing a whole load of councillors in places
0:40:44 > 0:40:49like Leeds and Bradford on top of an elected mayor, so there is a big
0:40:49 > 0:40:53cost implication, isn't there? not think so. You were not going to
0:40:53 > 0:40:59need to pay all the salaries that you pay without a mayor and I think
0:40:59 > 0:41:04a mayor would be value for money. Look at Leeds. It is the 24th most
0:41:04 > 0:41:09populous city in the European Union. It is in the top hundred by GDP. It
0:41:09 > 0:41:12is a major centre. It really needs to communicate that to the outside
0:41:12 > 0:41:18world to bring in investment and jobs and make it happen for the
0:41:18 > 0:41:25place. How much should Amaia be paid? I think that depends how good
0:41:25 > 0:41:29he is. -- Amaia be paid? If you cut someone who has leading a business,
0:41:29 > 0:41:34is there a great deal of difference? So, for example,
0:41:34 > 0:41:38Sheffield has a turnover of about a billion pounds. That is about the
0:41:38 > 0:41:43same sort of size as the FTSE 100 company. Many of those are paid
0:41:43 > 0:41:46tens of millions of pounds, those chief executives, I just think that
0:41:46 > 0:41:51and there is tremendous extra cost at a time where we needed to
0:41:51 > 0:41:57protect services from significant cuts. And she would be paying Amaia
0:41:57 > 0:42:00hot, between 102 hundred 1000? So that his value for money. So you
0:42:00 > 0:42:05could end up paying the mayor more than the Prime Minister? Would that
0:42:05 > 0:42:09be acceptable? It depends what he is doing and what is mandate is.
0:42:09 > 0:42:13This just shows the whole problem that there is with elected mayors.
0:42:13 > 0:42:18There has never been an elected mayor that has not massively
0:42:18 > 0:42:20increased the cost. In Sheffield, that leader and the Deputy Leader
0:42:21 > 0:42:25appeared to get there are not paid as much as some of the elected
0:42:25 > 0:42:30mayors that are, so there is a massive cost implication. I think
0:42:30 > 0:42:35the money once more money spent on services. If you get -- if you pay
0:42:35 > 0:42:40peanuts you get monkeys. For me this is getting down to the nub of
0:42:40 > 0:42:46the issue which is that leadership is about people, not structures. If
0:42:46 > 0:42:50Lee meets -- of Leeds need an effective leader it then the people
0:42:51 > 0:42:55of Leeds can vote for that at the moment. Her can they vote for it?
0:42:55 > 0:42:59They do not have a say. The vote for councillors and those
0:42:59 > 0:43:04councillors choose a leader. That is not giving the people of Leeds a
0:43:04 > 0:43:09say. My sense of that is that at the moment we used exactly the same
0:43:09 > 0:43:12system as we used to elect the Prime Minister. We vote for MPs, we
0:43:12 > 0:43:16vote for councillors, the get together and decide who will be the
0:43:16 > 0:43:21leader or who will be the prime minister. I think David Cameron has
0:43:21 > 0:43:27got quite good name recognition, I think Ed Miliband has quite good
0:43:27 > 0:43:32name recognition, I do not think that putting our cities on the
0:43:32 > 0:43:37world stage is about structures. Pamela that the question on the
0:43:37 > 0:43:47ballot paper. There is some controversy about the wording of
0:43:47 > 0:44:04
0:44:04 > 0:44:10this. Some argue it is biased in . Jacques got, what you make of
0:44:10 > 0:44:20that? I think it is a bias question. It is a question that is trying to
0:44:20 > 0:44:22
0:44:22 > 0:44:26prompt people.. Jonathan, do you think the question is there? I
0:44:27 > 0:44:30completely disagree. On a first reading of that I would state that
0:44:30 > 0:44:35it plays into the No camp because people are more inclined to keep
0:44:35 > 0:44:39the status quo than change. But this is saying that if you want a
0:44:39 > 0:44:43mayor then you have to change something. I do not think it plays
0:44:43 > 0:44:47into the yes campaign at all. what you think of the arguments put
0:44:48 > 0:44:57forward by the no campaign? I think there are some ballot problems for
0:44:58 > 0:44:59
0:44:59 > 0:45:04forward by the no campaign FTSE 100 businesses have to generate the
0:45:04 > 0:45:08income but councillors just have to spend it. We are always against
0:45:08 > 0:45:12quangos. We delight additional costs for the sake of it. I know
0:45:12 > 0:45:18that there is one of the mayor's out there who reduced his own
0:45:18 > 0:45:21salary and spends less driving his own car. I think it is the case of
0:45:21 > 0:45:25once again, in that is the right people and they have the right
0:45:25 > 0:45:30interests at heart, then there is the potential for them to do really
0:45:30 > 0:45:34well. At the same time, there is a cost involved that we have to pay.
0:45:34 > 0:45:39Are you not worried that it puts too much power in one person's
0:45:39 > 0:45:43hands? I think that could be a positive or negative. If the right
0:45:43 > 0:45:49persons use that power wisely, it could be put to good use. But there
0:45:49 > 0:45:52is also the potential for abuse. You could end up whereby they have
0:45:52 > 0:45:57not got the interest of the city probably at heart. They have got
0:45:57 > 0:46:03their own political agendas. well as the referendum on the
0:46:03 > 0:46:07elected mayors, voters in council areas across Yorkshire,
0:46:07 > 0:46:12Lincolnshire and the West Midlands will go to the polls on Thursday.
0:46:12 > 0:46:16Len Tingle has been taking a look at our election battleground.
0:46:16 > 0:46:21Council elections are big and bewildering. Not every council is
0:46:21 > 0:46:24having an election this year. Of those that are, just one third of
0:46:24 > 0:46:29their councillors are up for re- election. That means that the
0:46:29 > 0:46:36political change in our town and city walls do not happen as fast as
0:46:36 > 0:46:39a general election. -- city halls. Let us take a look at the picture
0:46:40 > 0:46:45from the 2011 elections. 14 of the councils that watered them have
0:46:45 > 0:46:49elections again this year. Libra it did really well in 2011, winning
0:46:49 > 0:46:57enough seats for to take control of Hull and Sheffield from the Liberal
0:46:57 > 0:47:02Democrats. Conservatives -- of the also have enough seats to one
0:47:02 > 0:47:06Bradford and Lincolnshire as minority administrations. Be sure,
0:47:06 > 0:47:11will Labour make further gains? What could spoil those ambitions.
0:47:11 > 0:47:17In Bradford, it could be George Galloway's respect. Labour, by far
0:47:17 > 0:47:22the largest party, needed just one more seat for a majority. Respect
0:47:23 > 0:47:27is fighting 12 of the city's 13 seats up for election. If it takes
0:47:27 > 0:47:31some for Labour, it could and balance the power. What about other
0:47:31 > 0:47:37minor parties? UK is making a big push the share, fielding more
0:47:37 > 0:47:42candidates than ever before. It is still contesting the one in three
0:47:42 > 0:47:48of the elections. The Greens are having council's success in pockets
0:47:48 > 0:47:52across the Aegean, but with limited resources it has Tippet its
0:47:52 > 0:47:57resources carefully -- its targets carefully.
0:47:57 > 0:48:01Now back to the referendum on elected mayors. Chris Glenn, you
0:48:01 > 0:48:05were undecided before the start of this programme. How will you vote?
0:48:05 > 0:48:09I think at the moment I am going to need to find out a bit more about
0:48:09 > 0:48:13it. I still do not think there is enough information out there. I
0:48:13 > 0:48:18think there are positive aspects to being a mere but I think there are
0:48:18 > 0:48:23some serious aspects as well. -- serious downside as well. I am
0:48:23 > 0:48:31still on the fence. Gentlemen, how are you going to persuade people
0:48:31 > 0:48:35like Chris to vote in the referendum? People in a major city
0:48:35 > 0:48:41like Leeds need to be able to choose their leader to put their
0:48:42 > 0:48:46city on the map. A mare at massive costs and it also makes local
0:48:46 > 0:48:51Government far more difficult and complicated and I think it gets
0:48:51 > 0:48:56less decisive. How would you sell this to people? Why to it -- choirs
0:48:56 > 0:49:00that important that the vote? a once in a generation opportunity.
0:49:00 > 0:49:09It is a chance to meet changed for the better so people need to get
0:49:10 > 0:49:14out and vote. And there we must look at debate for today.
0:49:15 > 0:49:19You can keep up-to-date with all the latest political news -- news
0:49:19 > 0:49:24and views in our part of the world. Log on to the blocks written by