:01:37. > :01:41.In Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, we investigate claims that patient
:01:41. > :01:51.safety was put at risk a tutor government targets in some of our
:01:51. > :01:51.
:01:51. > :30:01.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1689 seconds
:30:01. > :30:05.Good afternoon. Today: Claims that targets were put before patients'
:30:05. > :30:10.safety. Why the NHS paid half a million pounds to keep a hospital
:30:10. > :30:13.boss quiet. And as more flooding hit our part
:30:13. > :30:19.of the world, there is growing concern that many homeowners will
:30:19. > :30:28.be left high and dry by insurance companies.
:30:28. > :30:31.You may well recognise our guests today. They are Alan Johnson,
:30:31. > :30:36.Labour MP for West Hull and Hessle, and Timothy Kirkhope, Conservative
:30:36. > :30:42.MEP for Yorkshire and The Humber. Alan Johnson, we will kick off
:30:42. > :30:45.talking about the NHS target culture. Do you accept that in some
:30:45. > :30:54.cases targets introduced under Labour have -- have been
:30:54. > :30:58.detrimental to patients? Not at all. Targets are about patient care.
:30:58. > :31:02.Patients shouldn't have to wait two-and-a-half years a life-saving
:31:02. > :31:07.operations as they were. Some patients waited six years for a
:31:07. > :31:12.simple cataract operation. Patients shouldn't have to have lay on a
:31:12. > :31:18.trolley for 24 hours in Nd. If the patient is diagnosed with cancer in
:31:18. > :31:23.the GP's surgery, they shouldn't have to wait weeks before they get
:31:23. > :31:29.into acute care. This argument that a target culture affected patient
:31:29. > :31:33.care, the target culture in this huge organisation called the NHS is
:31:33. > :31:40.what turned that ship around. Timothy Kirkhope, that of the
:31:40. > :31:43.argument from Labour. Targets were a good thing in many cases. I agree
:31:43. > :31:48.with Alan Johnson. Targets can be a very good thing. But they're not a
:31:48. > :31:51.good thing if people cheat or people contrive to pretend that
:31:51. > :31:56.they are meeting targets which the government isn't actually providing
:31:56. > :32:00.the resources to meet. That is the key point. When people forced into
:32:00. > :32:04.that situation by management when they have to speak out because of
:32:04. > :32:07.it, they ought to be defended. Today we're asking whether patient
:32:07. > :32:11.safety was compromised due to medical staff chasing targets set
:32:11. > :32:15.by Whitehall. Documents leaked to the Sunday Politics reveal concerns
:32:16. > :32:19.at the main hospital trust in Lincolnshire. Some are questioning
:32:19. > :32:22.why a former hospital boss was given a half a million pound payout
:32:22. > :32:32.and subjected to so-called super gag after he was sacked from his
:32:32. > :32:35.
:32:35. > :32:39.job. Sharon Edwards has the full Rising debts, an ageing population
:32:39. > :32:47.and a drive to save billions. Pressure on our hospitals is rising.
:32:47. > :32:53.But what happens when it all gets too much? In late 2008, and Lincoln
:32:53. > :32:58.County Hospital was experiencing unprecedented demand. * For placed
:32:58. > :33:04.under more pressure to meet targets without any additional resources. -
:33:04. > :33:08.- staff were placed. The chairman had real concerns about patients'
:33:09. > :33:16.safety. They requested a review of the situation, but were turned down
:33:16. > :33:20.by NHS regional managers. Lincoln's wards were filling up with
:33:21. > :33:25.emergency cases. Chief executive Garry Walker and trust chairman
:33:25. > :33:30.David Bowles knew that they were struggling to set the targets set
:33:30. > :33:37.by government but were told they would not be given any slack.
:33:37. > :33:40.were asked quite simply to meet the targets. They had to achieve the
:33:40. > :33:45.target. It meant that doctors were going to be having to work longer
:33:45. > :33:49.hours, built -- beyond what they say police should have been working
:33:49. > :33:52.and patience just weren't going to get the time. There are going to be
:33:52. > :34:02.shunted in and out of envy and not given the correct amount of time to
:34:02. > :34:07.assess their problems. -- A N the. A we have seen an e-mail from the
:34:07. > :34:12.health authority telling managers they had to meet 100 % of one
:34:12. > :34:15.target within three weeks. Mr Walker wrote to the head of the NHS
:34:15. > :34:19.are claiming he had been subjected to bullying and harassment and told
:34:19. > :34:23.that his career would be in tatters if he refused to leave his job. He
:34:23. > :34:28.said Mr Bowles and other directors had been told that their careers
:34:28. > :34:33.arrested on delivering the targets. My concerns were that the pressures
:34:33. > :34:38.coming from outside of the trust could compromise patient safety. I
:34:38. > :34:41.stood up to those pressures and when it came to the point I can
:34:41. > :34:46.stand those pressures any longer, I resigned and made my concerns
:34:46. > :34:52.public. Mr Walker was sacked for swearing. He sued for unfair
:34:52. > :34:57.dismissal but signed a gagging order and returned for a payout.
:34:57. > :35:00.you sack somebody for nothing, for allegedly swearing, and then you
:35:00. > :35:03.spend half million pounds keeping it quiet and trying to prevent
:35:03. > :35:08.information getting into the public domain, but says there is something
:35:08. > :35:11.seriously wrong here. -- backs there's. In the GMB Stephen
:35:11. > :35:19.Phillips has written to the health secretary Andrew Lansley asking for
:35:19. > :35:21.an urgent investigation. We need to see all of the documents so we can
:35:21. > :35:31.see whether or not the last government's target culture led to
:35:31. > :35:33.
:35:33. > :35:38.this case in patients' safety. -- Leg to risks. If that is the case,
:35:38. > :35:41.they will have to be held to account. In a statement, the United
:35:41. > :35:46.Lincolnshire Hospitals Trust says it is committed to providing high
:35:46. > :35:54.quality, safe service. It has halved the number of patients
:35:54. > :35:57.waiting longer than 18 weeks' treatment. Some NHS targets have
:35:57. > :36:02.since been relaxed, but one union says the pressure on staff is still
:36:02. > :36:05.immense. They have lifted those targets but we have seen only this
:36:05. > :36:12.week by hospital trust on the verge of going into administration
:36:12. > :36:15.because there are other pressures on the NHS. It is too simple to say
:36:15. > :36:19.targets are good or bad, you have to look at the whole picture. And
:36:19. > :36:24.the whole picture is that the NHS is under more pressure than it has
:36:24. > :36:29.ever been. Another NHS scandal will not derail the huge reforms
:36:29. > :36:36.currently being brought in, but it will reignite the political debate
:36:36. > :36:39.on who we can really trust with our health services. Sharon Edwards
:36:39. > :36:41.reporting there, and we have been asked to emphasise that those
:36:41. > :36:48.leaked documents referred to by Sharon did not come from Lincoln
:36:48. > :36:53.Hospital's former chief executive Gary Walker. Alan Johnson, what is
:36:53. > :36:57.your reaction to these claims that former hospital boss was paid half
:36:57. > :37:02.a million pounds to keep quiet, one of these so-called super gags? If
:37:02. > :37:07.he had legitimate concerns about patients' safety commission they be
:37:07. > :37:10.made public? What happened when the hospital went the strategic health
:37:10. > :37:14.authority, they said they went to the regional NHS body and they
:37:14. > :37:22.wouldn't give them any more money. It can't be an issue about the
:37:22. > :37:26.sources. By the time to that of her nine came, we were spending �1,600
:37:26. > :37:31.per head of population. It's whether the resource should have
:37:31. > :37:35.gone into bat hospital. The second issue is the worrying one about why
:37:35. > :37:39.this guy's got this huge payout. When I was health secretary has
:37:39. > :37:45.stopped a big payout going to the chief executive of Mainstone have
:37:45. > :37:49.to weather had been a scandalous situation with regard to to
:37:49. > :37:52.infections. Woods up -- if something goes wrong, there is the
:37:52. > :37:55.culture that you get a big payout that irrespective of who was to
:37:55. > :38:00.blame. If there was swearing and the chief executive was dismissed
:38:00. > :38:10.for that cannot why was he given a payout? The third element is a wide
:38:10. > :38:15.as Stephen want to go back to 2009 because he wants to deflect
:38:15. > :38:19.attention? The NHS has got to save �20 billion over the next five
:38:20. > :38:23.years. How can we be sure these incidents were not happen again?
:38:23. > :38:28.What we're talking about here was under the watch Bob Alan Johnson
:38:29. > :38:36.and his friends when they were in government. -- Bob Alan Johnson.
:38:36. > :38:42.The most important conclusion to draw from this is that the
:38:42. > :38:46.government is undoubtedly looking at resources as it has to do with
:38:46. > :38:52.everything. We have to be open about this. Setting up health watch,
:38:52. > :38:55.which we are doing from October, which is going to encourage public
:38:55. > :38:59.participation in the sort of decisions that have been going on
:38:59. > :39:05.there, meaning that whistleblowers would have an audience that can be
:39:05. > :39:08.listened to independently. A thing that will help us enormously.
:39:08. > :39:13.Whether the problems should be covered up, I don't think so. I
:39:13. > :39:17.think they should be brought to the attention to that -- of the public.
:39:17. > :39:20.Alan Johnson, you were Health Secretary when the Mid
:39:20. > :39:25.Staffordshire Hospital problems were revealed. Prof hundred people
:39:25. > :39:29.could have died because of government targets. -- 1,200 people.
:39:29. > :39:36.Did you learn lessons? It wasn't because of government targets.
:39:36. > :39:42.There is an enquiry which will happen in October. It was the chief
:39:42. > :39:52.executive he decided to get Foundation Trust -- him at decided
:39:52. > :39:55.
:39:55. > :40:00.that to get a... It says all you need to know about staff at. What
:40:00. > :40:03.reflects the NHS now compared to when Timothy was in government is
:40:03. > :40:13.low waiting times, people being diagnosed quickly within a
:40:13. > :40:14.
:40:14. > :40:20.fortnight, premature deaths from cancer down, that is changing in
:40:20. > :40:27.just two years as we go to this enormous reorganisation. Where not
:40:27. > :40:35.focused on patient care. Ongoing investment right now where it
:40:35. > :40:41.really matters, it as to avoid that sort of thing. The bottom line is
:40:41. > :40:44.open us. The misery caused by flooding has
:40:44. > :40:46.been evident again this week, as parts of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire
:40:46. > :40:49.were affected by torrential downpours. It's five years since
:40:49. > :40:51.the worst flash floods in living memory and many homeowners claim
:40:52. > :41:01.lessons haven't been learnt from the summer of 2007. Here's Len
:41:02. > :41:03.
:41:03. > :41:06.Tingle. When we received a flood warning... A Jason Taylor
:41:06. > :41:12.demonstrates new flood defences just fitted to his front door.
:41:12. > :41:16.Effective, he hopes, to keep out a foot or so of water. But five years
:41:16. > :41:24.ago, this is what happened to his street in Darfield just outside
:41:24. > :41:29.Bardsley. The river burst its banks twice in a week. Waves up to five
:41:29. > :41:34.feet high birth through doors, destroying everything inside. -- a
:41:34. > :41:44.burst. No one in because they haven't been in a flood his in the
:41:44. > :41:45.
:41:45. > :41:51.1950s. -- no warning. It is a risk too far for insurance companies.
:41:51. > :41:55.have to pay a premium, maybe 800 or 900 pounds more. A what does that
:41:55. > :41:59.make you and your family feel? Do you sleep at night wondering if it
:41:59. > :42:03.will rain heavy again the? When it rains heavy, everybody is checking
:42:03. > :42:08.the river because they're all concerned. On this street of modest
:42:08. > :42:14.houses hearing dark field, before the floods just five years ago,
:42:14. > :42:19.insurance premiums were around �200 for contents and rebuild insurance.
:42:19. > :42:23.Now they are being asked double, treble, quadruple, and even then
:42:23. > :42:28.the insurance companies are saying, yes, you can have your insurance
:42:28. > :42:31.but you won't be covered for floods in future. And that is despite a
:42:31. > :42:38.deal between government and insurers to keep existing cover in
:42:38. > :42:43.place. Without it, it is thought the flood risk of a large part of
:42:43. > :42:50.Yorkshire and virtually the whole of Hull makes it uninsurable. A
:42:50. > :42:54.replacement deal is being negotiated but insurers say they
:42:54. > :42:58.want effective spend on flood defences to manage the risk. That
:42:59. > :43:02.is where this man comes in. He is the Floods Minister. On Tuesday, he
:43:02. > :43:07.toured parts of West Yorkshire where floods had just hit towns
:43:07. > :43:12.like Hebden Bridge. We are reducing the spending over four years by six
:43:12. > :43:18.%, but against cutting my Department of 30 %, it shows a real
:43:18. > :43:23.priority. It is a spending similar amounts of the government of before,
:43:23. > :43:27.but we are making flood defences an absolute priority. And that was
:43:27. > :43:31.clearly on the Prime Minister's mind on his visit to Toddington on
:43:31. > :43:35.Thursday. Long term, we need another deal with the insurance
:43:35. > :43:44.companies so they do what it says on the 10th. They provide people
:43:44. > :43:54.with cover against flooding. -- on the tin. But if the public floods
:43:54. > :43:56.
:43:56. > :44:03.Syrett -- summit -- but the public flood summit warned of further
:44:03. > :44:11.problems. The insurance industry have accepted it, but they say,
:44:11. > :44:19.don't expect us to take up the risk. Other politicians wrangle,
:44:19. > :44:21.uncertainty grows. These pictures must have made many reach for their
:44:21. > :44:28.insurance policies. But the fear is, if there is next time, those
:44:29. > :44:34.policies might not exist. And you can read more about the politics of
:44:34. > :44:37.flooding on Len's blog. Timothy Kirkhope, what is the government
:44:37. > :44:41.doing to reassure homeowners that they will still be able to get
:44:42. > :44:47.insurance when this statement of principle runs out in insurance
:44:47. > :44:51.companies next year? As we saw that clip, the Prime Minister takes it
:44:51. > :44:56.enormously seriously. He has been trying to talk this through with
:44:56. > :45:00.the insurers in a fairly robust manner because the insurers simply
:45:00. > :45:03.cannot relate directly their agreement to cover on flooding
:45:03. > :45:09.against the amount of money that any government spends. I have to
:45:09. > :45:13.say, we are being criticised because through economic stringency
:45:13. > :45:19.we cannot put as much money into flood defences as we might like.
:45:19. > :45:24.But it is an enormous sum compared with what it was years ago. In 2001,
:45:24. > :45:33.the Institute of Civil Engineers criticised but the Labour
:45:33. > :45:36.government needed to spend double to get even basic flood defences
:45:36. > :45:41.into places. Here, we have got problems which need to be solved
:45:41. > :45:45.and insurance companies have got to show more responsibility and to
:45:45. > :45:49.react positively to the government. Alan Johnson, no government can
:45:49. > :45:54.fully protect everywhere from flooding, can they? Know, but they
:45:54. > :46:01.can do a lot more than we are doing at the moment. We don't want to get
:46:01. > :46:06.to the insurers and be flooded in the first place, and the issue of
:46:06. > :46:09.the pit to review after those terrible floods in 2007 made it
:46:09. > :46:14.plain that the gunman had to maintain the spending and increases
:46:14. > :46:18.above inflation every year. He made the point, every �1 spent on flood
:46:18. > :46:24.defences saves �8 further down the line. So it is crucial that we keep
:46:24. > :46:31.to those spending plans. When it comes to the insurers, this meeting
:46:31. > :46:38.in Hull was very interesting. A constituent of mine died and the
:46:38. > :46:41.Environment Agency tried to solve the problem by creating lagoons so
:46:41. > :46:46.the water flows out, and yet as one of my constituents. Lap, having
:46:46. > :46:56.done that, the Environment Agency tried to make it safe for a one in
:46:56. > :46:56.
:46:56. > :47:00.hundred year it rainfall, and yet she still cannot get insurance.
:47:00. > :47:05.as Alan knows, there is also an issue regarding the Environment
:47:05. > :47:10.Agency. I think they have really got their act together now. Your
:47:10. > :47:14.own residents in your constituency were not given adequate warning.
:47:14. > :47:17.The Environment Agency is now informing people, it is giving
:47:17. > :47:22.positive notifications and doing positive things to help them. That
:47:22. > :47:26.is a key issue as well as the insurer has been positive. Now,
:47:26. > :47:35.let's get some more of the week's political news in our part of the
:47:35. > :47:39.world with our round-up in 60 seconds. The Barclays Bank scandal
:47:39. > :47:43.turned into a political battleground with an attack on the
:47:43. > :47:49.government from Leeds MP Rachel Reeves, who in her Treasury role
:47:49. > :47:51.was standing in for the Chancellor Ed Balls. We are calling for the
:47:51. > :47:59.strongish pound spent for those to have broken the law. The Chancellor
:47:59. > :48:02.claimed that Ed Balls should have been there. He was certainly there
:48:02. > :48:06.every single day while these abuses were taking place. Meanwhile the
:48:06. > :48:10.government announced an increase in wage subsidies in unemployment
:48:10. > :48:14.blackspots like Hull to give employers incentives to take on
:48:14. > :48:18.long-term jobless young people. These are the young people who are
:48:18. > :48:23.hardest to reach. In the labour markets, that are hardest to crack.
:48:23. > :48:27.And Labour's plans to support government reform of the House of
:48:27. > :48:32.Lords raised a few at eyebrows but Ed Miliband is sticking to his guns.
:48:32. > :48:39.They will be lots of people might party he then we shouldn't be doing
:48:39. > :48:44.that but we do want proper scrutiny. -- in my party who think. Why does
:48:44. > :48:50.that matter to your constituency, Alan Johnson? Because they want to
:48:50. > :48:53.live in a proper, grown-up democracy. I had stood on election
:48:53. > :48:58.for four times and on every occasion my manifesto said, reform
:48:58. > :49:03.the House of Lords. So did the Conservatives this time, so did the
:49:03. > :49:06.Liberal Democrats. Let's get rid of this institutionalised snobbery.
:49:06. > :49:11.Many Tories are unhappy, could this be the straw that breaks the
:49:11. > :49:18.coalition's back? We had just got to get on with it. One thing is
:49:18. > :49:22.going to stop us doing this, the House of Lords. Either of you fancy
:49:22. > :49:32.the job, you get a 15 year 10 and the closest thing you get to the
:49:32. > :49:36.