:00:42. > :00:52.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. An epic spat in the Commons would
:00:52. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:25.Tories queuing up to strangle Nick Coming up in half an hour, the
:01:25. > :01:35.Yorkshire MP calling for the return of capital punishment, what impact
:01:35. > :01:35.
:01:35. > :31:35.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1800 seconds
:31:35. > :31:39.does a trip to death row in the USA Hello, good afternoon. This is
:31:40. > :31:44.Sunday Politics for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and the North Midlands.
:31:44. > :31:50.Coming up, the Yorkshire MP calling for the return of capital
:31:50. > :31:55.punishment. What impact does a trip to death row in the USA have won
:31:55. > :32:02.his beliefs? You never know, I might go back and think maybe it is
:32:02. > :32:08.not the right idea. Our guests are death penalty
:32:08. > :32:11.supporter, the Conservative MP for Shipley, Philip Davies, and Edward
:32:11. > :32:15.McMillan-Scott, Liberal Democrat MEP and human rights campaigner
:32:15. > :32:20.very much against the death penalty. Before we get on to the main
:32:20. > :32:24.talking point Michael the day, can I ask about a story in the papers
:32:24. > :32:30.this week, claiming you and members of the committee you represent
:32:30. > :32:35.accepted tickets from BT to attend the men's 100 metres final at the
:32:35. > :32:40.Olympics, the blue riband event. Do you intend to attend that event?
:32:40. > :32:43.Absolutely, yes. I have been on the select committee for six years,
:32:43. > :32:49.scrutinising the preparations for the Olympics. My first meeting was
:32:49. > :32:53.at the Olympic Park to scrutinise the plans, and we have got to
:32:53. > :32:58.scrutinise what are going on at the Games, too. It would be bizarre if
:32:58. > :33:04.we didn't go and see what is going on. You have responded to your
:33:04. > :33:07.critics, let's get on to the most important talking point. Edward
:33:07. > :33:10.McMillan-Scott, polls show that the majority of the public are in
:33:10. > :33:14.favour of the restoration of capital punishment. Should the
:33:14. > :33:21.House of Commons vote on this? There has been a tendency for the
:33:21. > :33:28.public to take a tough view on this. Whether repetition -- where a
:33:28. > :33:31.petition was raised, I didn't get more than 50,000 signatures,
:33:31. > :33:37.requiring 100,000 for a debate in the Commons. There's a general
:33:37. > :33:46.feeling that those concerns tougher just as is needed was in fact
:33:46. > :33:53.because we're in the European Union, the idea is not possible. Find out
:33:53. > :33:56.what happens when Philip Davies heads to the death-row, but, first,
:33:56. > :33:59.the last man sentenced to death in an English court came from
:33:59. > :34:02.Scarborough? David Chapman escaped the hangman's noose after capital
:34:02. > :34:12.punishment was outlawed in 1965. Almost half a century later, the
:34:12. > :34:13.
:34:13. > :34:17.subject still prompts a fierce Scarborough, for millions of
:34:17. > :34:21.northerners, a place of happy memories, especially for those
:34:21. > :34:26.families drawn to its two outdoor pools, both are now long since
:34:26. > :34:32.demolished, but this one, the North Bay pool was the unlikely scene of
:34:32. > :34:36.what became a piece of kiss and darker national history.
:34:37. > :34:40.In the summer of 1965, shocked readers of the Scarborough Evening
:34:41. > :34:44.News heard they had been a murder. In the early hours, a night
:34:44. > :34:50.watchman at the North Bay pool had been deliberately drowned as he
:34:50. > :34:56.tried to stop would-be burglars. By late autumn, the paper was
:34:56. > :35:01.reporting from the trial of David Chapman. On 1st November, 1965, he
:35:01. > :35:06.was found guilty of what the judge called a callous and brutal murder.
:35:06. > :35:12.He was sentenced to hang, the last time that sentence would be passed
:35:12. > :35:18.in any English court. Chapman didn't how ring. Within days of his
:35:18. > :35:22.sentence being handed down, Parliament temporarily at least
:35:22. > :35:28.abolished capital punishment. His sentence was commuted to life
:35:28. > :35:34.imprisonment. He was released on licence in 1979. A couple of years
:35:34. > :35:39.later, he died in a car crash. The case joined a long list already
:35:39. > :35:45.highlighted in the often bitter arguments on capital punishment,
:35:45. > :35:50.right up until MPs voted for permanent abolition in 1979. It is
:35:50. > :35:54.still going on. This week, BBC Radio Leeds broadcast a debate on
:35:54. > :35:57.crime and justice, attending the son of the first victim of the
:35:57. > :36:02.Yorkshire Ripper and the father whose daughter was strangled by a
:36:02. > :36:11.violently abusive partner. If you take my life, I would expect
:36:11. > :36:16.somebody to take your. Life means a life sentence, but I don't believe
:36:16. > :36:21.that that it should mean capital punishment. There are over 30 e-
:36:22. > :36:24.petitions calling for more parliamentary debate. Opinion polls
:36:24. > :36:27.suggest people want capital punishment. Hanging may be gone but
:36:27. > :36:30.it is not forgotten. Len Tingle reporting there. So
:36:30. > :36:34.let's find out what happened when Philip Davies visited a prison in
:36:34. > :36:37.Florida where the death penalty is carried out.
:36:37. > :36:40.As part of BBC Radio Leeds' Crime and Justice week, video journalist
:36:40. > :36:43.Spencer Stokes followed the Shipley MP to discover whether his view
:36:43. > :36:53.would change when confronted by the harsh reality of state-condoned
:36:53. > :36:59.
:36:59. > :37:05.440 men on death row. Inmates convicted of terrible crimes
:37:05. > :37:11.waiting to be executed. Long, legal battles to avoid the legal --
:37:11. > :37:15.lethal injection. This is just as, Florida style, and it is a system
:37:15. > :37:20.that fascinates Philip Davies, who has come to the USA to see if
:37:20. > :37:24.examining the system at close- quarters work altered his famously
:37:24. > :37:28.strident views. I am not aware of any MPs been to visit Death Row. I
:37:28. > :37:32.don't tend to change my mind very often, but from speaking to people
:37:32. > :37:36.who operate the system, you never know, I may go back and think,
:37:36. > :37:41.actually, maybe it isn't the right idea. The death penalty was
:37:41. > :37:46.reintroduced in Florida in 1976, and 73 people have been put to
:37:46. > :37:51.death, two of them this year. The executions take place a few miles
:37:51. > :37:59.from this town, where Philip is meeting the state representative.
:37:59. > :38:03.Welcome to Florida. Nice to meet a like minded politicians. He is a
:38:03. > :38:08.Republican who campaigns for the death penalty and he rejects the
:38:08. > :38:12.argument that executions do little to cut crime rates. You can run the
:38:12. > :38:17.statistics and say it doesn't deter it. I would rebut that by saying
:38:17. > :38:20.that is because we have moved in a direction where his -- where it is
:38:20. > :38:27.not an swift and sure. The reality and distance between their friends
:38:27. > :38:31.and when it is carried out has been diluted. A constant stream of
:38:31. > :38:35.trials, retrials and appeals have slowed the number of executions in
:38:35. > :38:41.Florida, so now inmates are spending decades on death-row, and
:38:41. > :38:46.some have been there in excess of 30 years. Philip Davis is about to
:38:46. > :38:50.see the inner workings of the system. He is here to walk death-
:38:50. > :38:54.row, see the execution chamber and meet the deathwatch, on the. I do
:38:54. > :39:02.the right thing. I want to handle it with respect. It is a very
:39:02. > :39:08.important job, and I want to do the best job I can. It makes it easier
:39:08. > :39:14.for me to go home knowing I did the right thing. He believed -- you
:39:14. > :39:18.begins his tour of the prison. Two hours later, his outlook remains
:39:18. > :39:21.that same. I want to commend you on your prison regime which is what
:39:21. > :39:29.the British public, if they could design it, this is what they would
:39:29. > :39:37.design. For those with family inside, there is a different view
:39:37. > :39:41.and after his visit to death-row, Philip means -- meets Rosalyn. Her
:39:41. > :39:46.husband, a convicted double murderer, is facing execution at
:39:46. > :39:52.Florida State prison. He needs to think before he opens his mouth. He
:39:52. > :39:58.is just using the death penalty as some kind of platform for him to be
:39:58. > :40:06.tough on crime. And that kind of thing. And it is disingenuous. I
:40:06. > :40:12.think it's... It's terrible. believes her husband is innocent
:40:12. > :40:16.and since 1976, 23 innocent men have been freed from death row. But
:40:17. > :40:23.could an innocent man be executed? Florida's state attorney says it is
:40:23. > :40:26.unlikely. Our burden of proof is proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
:40:26. > :40:30.Some of my constituents don't agree with me and think the death penalty
:40:30. > :40:35.should not be reintroduced. What could you say to them that might
:40:35. > :40:40.persuade them otherwise? Why would we allow somebody to shoot and kill
:40:40. > :40:46.someone who has bird arrived and might be trying to rape a woman
:40:46. > :40:53.inside of a home? That is an act that can take alive, but the same
:40:53. > :40:57.act, we say it is barbaric to take their life. Florida is proud of its
:40:57. > :41:01.law enforcement and justice system. An electric chair that claimed the
:41:01. > :41:05.lives of 440 death-row inmates takes pride of place in a state
:41:05. > :41:08.museum. A chair in which Philip Kamara flecked. I feel remarkably
:41:08. > :41:12.comfortable about sitting here. You think about the people that have
:41:12. > :41:17.sat through here and what they must have been going through. We also
:41:17. > :41:23.think about what we have to do and what those people have done to beat
:41:23. > :41:26.in this chair. I feel remarkably... Cool and confident of this is
:41:26. > :41:31.actually the right system of justice. I think my view has now
:41:31. > :41:34.been reinforced and I am in favour of capital punishment. When the
:41:35. > :41:39.backlash does come, it is not inconceivable that some day down
:41:39. > :41:43.the line, the UK will decide to bring back the day of Panel two.
:41:43. > :41:47.And I opening visit for Philip, but one that has not changed his mind.
:41:47. > :41:51.He remains a strong supporter of the death penalty and has now of
:41:51. > :41:58.the view that many voters at home would also favour Florida style
:41:58. > :42:03.justice. So, the US experience didn't change
:42:03. > :42:07.your view? It reinforced my view that the Americans are much tougher
:42:07. > :42:12.on crime, the prison regime is tougher, the sentencing regime is
:42:12. > :42:19.tougher. Even if you don't get the death penalty, you have a whole
:42:19. > :42:23.life tariff without any parole. So, they have a much tougher approach.
:42:23. > :42:26.I think that is what my constituents would like to see. I
:42:26. > :42:31.am absolutely convinced they would like a much tougher sentencing
:42:31. > :42:41.regime, as they do in Florida. Edward McMillan-Scott, do you agree
:42:41. > :42:46.with his view.? If you look at the effectiveness of various sanctions,
:42:46. > :42:49.it doesn't work. The number of murders has actually gone down by
:42:50. > :42:54.27% when the death penalty was removed in Florida. Across the
:42:54. > :42:59.world, where the death penalty exists, those countries have twice
:42:59. > :43:03.the number of the murder rate. Leaving aside the morality of it,
:43:03. > :43:12.it doesn't work. White even consider even introducing it.
:43:12. > :43:17.you agree? No. You say it doesn't work. A man was convicted of murder,
:43:17. > :43:21.was released, and then abducted and raped a boy in my constituency. If
:43:21. > :43:26.the death penalty was in place, you would have been hanged and put to
:43:26. > :43:30.death. He would not have been able to abduct and rape a 10-year-old
:43:30. > :43:33.boy, so for him to say the death penalty does not work, for that
:43:33. > :43:37.family in my constituency, it is palpable nonsense. It prevents
:43:37. > :43:42.those people that have been released from prison going out and
:43:42. > :43:46.committing more crimes and creating the victims of crime. When you look
:43:46. > :43:52.at Ian Brady, rotting away in jail, us and they're part of you that
:43:52. > :44:02.things, he should have swung away on a rope? He is in the right place,
:44:02. > :44:03.
:44:03. > :44:07.and it means a life sentence. I don't think... Let me give you the
:44:07. > :44:11.specifics of the young Leeds man, been an army, went back to Pakistan,
:44:11. > :44:17.and had a problem with a taxi driver. The gun went off, he was
:44:17. > :44:20.put on death row and he remained there for years. Due to the
:44:20. > :44:28.campaign run, he was released. Otherwise, he would have been
:44:28. > :44:33.hanged. But would have been a gross miscarriage of justice. Ruth Ellis,
:44:33. > :44:37.the anniversary of a hanging is this week. There was a serious
:44:37. > :44:40.miscarriage of justice there. In the specifics, you can make a case
:44:40. > :44:45.for something different, but the morality of the issue should be
:44:45. > :44:49.considered. It is opposing the principles of the right to life.
:44:49. > :44:53.And because it doesn't work, it is not effective as a deterrent.
:44:53. > :44:58.Richard not be considered for the European Continent as a whole, and
:44:58. > :45:02.the United Nations is running a campaign, which I support, to
:45:02. > :45:07.abolish the death penalty wherever it exists. What about the argument
:45:07. > :45:12.of the risk of miscarriage of justice? I understand that. That
:45:12. > :45:16.isn't an objection to the death penalty in principle, that is the
:45:16. > :45:20.right form of justice when people have committed terrible crimes. As
:45:20. > :45:24.we have improvements in scientific evidence, the developments in DNA
:45:24. > :45:30.and technology, the chances of it being the wrong person is much
:45:30. > :45:33.lower than it was 30-40 years ago, and it seems to me as the each --
:45:33. > :45:40.the chance of the wrong person gets lower, the arguments are getting
:45:40. > :45:46.stronger. What is the argument for capital punishment, apart from
:45:46. > :45:50.vindictive justice? It is immoral to argue, as happens in Iran or
:45:50. > :45:56.Afghanistan, where stoning is perfectly common, it is be steel,
:45:56. > :45:59.and it should be discouraged. Up to encourage the idea that a
:45:59. > :46:03.retributive system of justice should be introduced it is wholly
:46:03. > :46:08.against the British national character. My view is that when
:46:08. > :46:15.people take somebody's life away, the only appropriate form of
:46:16. > :46:20.punishment is for them to suffer the same fate. A tooth for tooth?
:46:20. > :46:24.When I was visiting death row in Florida, I see people in there with
:46:24. > :46:30.their feet up, reading the paper, watching the TV without a care in
:46:30. > :46:33.the world. They have got absolutely no problem with what they have done,
:46:33. > :46:37.they don't feel guilty about what they have done, and I think there
:46:37. > :46:41.is something wrong about people like Ian Brady sitting about,
:46:41. > :46:47.reading the paper, watching TV in away their victims will never be
:46:47. > :46:50.able to do that. It seems to me when these people have taken
:46:50. > :46:55.someone's life away, I do not see where the punishment for that
:46:55. > :46:59.should not be their life, too. People will always see prison as a
:46:59. > :47:03.soft option, will they not? They have lost their liberty for ever.
:47:04. > :47:10.That young man who was interviewed his mother was a victim said a life
:47:10. > :47:14.means life. A Life for Life means that the criminal who is guilty of
:47:14. > :47:19.what would have been a capital crime now loses his liberty for
:47:19. > :47:24.life. That is what it means. doesn't mean life. If life meant
:47:24. > :47:29.life genuinely without parole, peopled more -- people might accept
:47:29. > :47:36.the current situation. We even saw the chap from Scarborough, he was
:47:36. > :47:40.out within 14 years. It doesn't mean life. As the package made
:47:40. > :47:48.clear, people have been wrongly convicted and released. The system
:47:48. > :47:54.worked! They do have the death penalty and that system works.
:47:54. > :47:58.Those people were released, let out of prison in a place where they do
:47:58. > :48:04.have the death penalty for the because of those appeals, because
:48:04. > :48:08.of the expensive process they have, it costs $23 million by a capital
:48:08. > :48:13.case, as opposed to live in prison, which is more cheaper, and more
:48:13. > :48:17.effective. It is always an emotive and fascinating debate, but we will
:48:17. > :48:20.have to bring it to a close. Now, let's get some more of the
:48:20. > :48:30.week's political news in our part of the world with our round-up in
:48:30. > :48:32.
:48:32. > :48:37.Reform of the House of Lords that the Westminster agenda this week.
:48:37. > :48:40.The resulting Conservative rebellion saw one Lincolnshire MP
:48:40. > :48:46.and coalition sceptics led to wreck. Why don't we vote against House of
:48:46. > :48:52.Lords reform tomorrow and then we will and the sad Lant -- life of
:48:52. > :48:55.this coalition. We will have a general election. Edward Leigh his
:48:55. > :49:00.fellow Lincolnshire MP Nick Boles claimed that put off pensioners
:49:00. > :49:04.need to play their part in clearing the deficit. He suggested the and
:49:04. > :49:09.of universal benefits. Does anyone here think it would be responsible
:49:09. > :49:12.to go on giving a free TV licence to Michael Rimmer? Free
:49:12. > :49:18.prescriptions to Lord Sugar? And a winter fuel allowance to Paul
:49:18. > :49:22.McCartney? And the debate on white air ambulances should have to pay
:49:22. > :49:26.VAT on fuel could lead to the government paying their money back.
:49:26. > :49:33.The Commons debate was triggered by motorbike enthusiast can shop from
:49:33. > :49:37.York. -- Ken Sharp. A don't want to get into House of
:49:37. > :49:40.Rules reform but Edward McMillan- Scott, after the rebellion, do you
:49:40. > :49:49.think this is the beginning of the end for the coalition? Of course
:49:50. > :49:53.not. It is a private coalition. When Philip Davies goes to the
:49:53. > :49:58.United States, he should have been looking at the growth in the
:49:58. > :50:01.American economy. That is what the coalition has about. We heard from
:50:01. > :50:07.Edward Leigh from the Conservative Party suggesting any opportunity
:50:07. > :50:13.you guys get, you should bring down the coalition. Do you agree?
:50:13. > :50:18.should take each debate on its merit. I agree with Edward, the
:50:18. > :50:23.coalition will last the five years, and then I hope we can have a
:50:23. > :50:26.Conservative government in a majority so we can get rid of the
:50:26. > :50:31.Human Rights Act, and these other things my constituents have been
:50:31. > :50:36.crying out for. Huge tensions of issues like Europe between your
:50:36. > :50:41.parties. Up to a point, but what you are seeing is, people are
:50:41. > :50:44.expressing themselves volubly, and it is mostly problems for David
:50:44. > :50:51.Cameron, his management of his party which has led to fisticuffs
:50:51. > :50:56.this week. I will not ask you to defend David Cameron, but is it
:50:56. > :51:03.inevitable you will see some referendum on our future in the UK?
:51:03. > :51:06.Absolutely. A referendum is inevitable, and I hope that the
:51:06. > :51:10.Conservative Party will not resist that for much longer. If David
:51:10. > :51:15.Cameron gets ahead of the curve, he will get credit for that.
:51:15. > :51:20.Liberals are not frightened of a referendum, but 3.5 million jobs in
:51:20. > :51:23.this country depend on the European Union. That's rubbish... We will
:51:23. > :51:28.come back in the autumn to continue this argument.
:51:28. > :51:31.That's about it from us. In a moment, the Sunday Politics looks