:01:14. > :01:17.and Lincolnshire: We investigate why millions of pounds in taxpayers'
:01:17. > :01:27.money is being spent preventing public sector staff from speaking
:01:27. > :01:27.
:01:27. > :36:35.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2108 seconds
:36:35. > :36:38.Hello. This is the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire.
:36:38. > :36:40.Coming up: We investigate why millions of pounds in taxpayers'
:36:40. > :36:47.money is being spent silencing public sector staff from speaking
:36:47. > :36:55.out. And we find out why volunteers are
:36:55. > :37:04.increasingly the filling the gap left by council cutbacks. Let's say
:37:04. > :37:12.hello to our guests today. Joining me are Martin Vickers MP and
:37:12. > :37:21.Barnsley Council leader Steve Houghton. Steve Houghton, councils
:37:21. > :37:26.have been told to prepare for 10% cuts in the spending review on
:37:26. > :37:32.Wednesday. How will that impact your authority? That will be huge. This
:37:32. > :37:40.is the fourth year of cups we are looking at. Local government has
:37:40. > :37:45.already taken a 33% cut. Other departments have taken 12%. If we
:37:45. > :37:51.are talking about another 10% on top of this, front-line services are
:37:51. > :37:57.going to be significantly affected. In my borough, we are talking about
:37:57. > :38:04.closing youth clubs, less cleansing, less ground maintenance and highway
:38:04. > :38:08.maintenance. Do you think local government will be
:38:08. > :38:12.disproportionately hit by the Chancellor on Wednesday? I would
:38:12. > :38:19.hope not. And will be another reduction. I spent many years as a
:38:19. > :38:28.local councillor in Lincolnshire throughout the period we faced many
:38:28. > :38:31.cuts year-on-year. Local government has been drastically reduced and has
:38:31. > :38:39.to be more sharper and effective. We have seen lots of efficiency
:38:39. > :38:43.savings. I met by local council leaders a couple of weeks ago. I
:38:43. > :38:47.challenged them on some issues. Reassured me that front-line
:38:47. > :38:51.services would be secure. Some would call it people power,
:38:51. > :38:54.others the big society. But it seems that in many areas volunteers are
:38:54. > :38:57.being encouraged to fill the gap left by cuts to council funding.
:38:57. > :39:06.James Vincent visited one group six months ago and again last week to
:39:06. > :39:11.see how they were coping. The argument about whether council
:39:11. > :39:17.cuts are necessary or harsh will always be there. But it is down to
:39:17. > :39:20.our councils to decide what is lost from the landscape. There is no room
:39:20. > :39:29.for efficiency savings any more. We are going to the bones of service
:39:30. > :39:33.delivery. Closures and mothballing. Two words we have heard a lot of
:39:33. > :39:38.recently. Front-line services are being affected. Councils tell us
:39:38. > :39:42.that is not enough money to run things any more. In the process of
:39:42. > :39:47.balancing the books, the third word that keeps cropping up his
:39:48. > :39:52.volunteers. Some communities have realised if they want to keep
:39:52. > :39:57.services open, they will have to keep them running themselves. This
:39:57. > :40:03.leisure centre was closed by the council two years ago. It lay empty
:40:03. > :40:10.for a year. Now a group of volunteers have got it back up and
:40:10. > :40:17.running. One of the pipes burst when the building was shot. We are still
:40:17. > :40:23.trying to get rid of the moisture. Leisure is seen by some as an easy
:40:23. > :40:27.target for savings. Councils don't have to provide it. I don't think it
:40:27. > :40:33.matters what you call it, big society or not. Lots of local people
:40:33. > :40:37.have come together to try to get a community-based facility up and
:40:37. > :40:44.running. I don't think you can knock that, whatever part of the political
:40:44. > :40:49.spectrum you are from. There are ten classes here every week. It brings
:40:49. > :40:58.them in �600 a month. There is serious sweat and toil to be done
:40:58. > :41:03.before this can be a viable business plan. Across the country, we have
:41:03. > :41:07.councils doing innovative work. Public satisfaction with council
:41:07. > :41:15.services has gone up since 2010. We have to look at new ways of working,
:41:15. > :41:19.sharing management, outsourcing, sharing services. Looking at the
:41:19. > :41:24.wider spectrum of opportunities that are out there. Six months on, Martin
:41:24. > :41:33.and the team have won an award for their work. They are even
:41:33. > :41:39.diversifying. One of the churches has their services here now. Today
:41:39. > :41:49.it is a football pitch. On a Sunday, it is a church. There is a lot of
:41:49. > :41:54.hard work still to do. The gym is not ready yet. It is just a weight
:41:54. > :41:59.on top of you thinking, can we do this? Will it work? If you think you
:42:00. > :42:07.can put up with that stress, stand up and have a go. If you don't,
:42:07. > :42:14.maybe nobody else will. Could some see a time where councils are not
:42:14. > :42:19.needed at all? Yes, I can. Now an elected councillor, regardless of
:42:19. > :42:26.the party, they have to ask themselves the question, why am I
:42:26. > :42:28.going into local politics? What is it that I can actually do?
:42:28. > :42:32.We saw the volunteers there who succeeded in taking over their
:42:32. > :42:40.leisure centre. Do we still need local councils to run leisure
:42:40. > :42:44.services? We need local councils for several reasons. A lot of money is
:42:44. > :42:53.being spent, irrespective of the cuts. That needs local oversight
:42:53. > :42:56.responsibility. We need councillors as community leaders to be out there
:42:56. > :43:03.problem solving, finding different solutions to the issues communities
:43:03. > :43:07.face. In many ways, weedy -- we need local councillors even more than
:43:07. > :43:15.before. Do you think this is where the government is wanting to lead
:43:15. > :43:20.us? No-frills Ryanair style councils which provide basic services?
:43:20. > :43:25.basic framework of services, but what we want our quality services.
:43:25. > :43:30.That perhaps means local authorities doing less things now than they did
:43:30. > :43:33.ten or 15 years ago. I agree with Steve in as much as we need local
:43:33. > :43:38.authorities for the foreseeable future to provide that
:43:38. > :43:45.accountability and oversight. Otherwise public money is going off
:43:45. > :43:48.in different directions without the necessary checking is. So, yes, we
:43:48. > :43:54.need less frills Ryanair type service but within that you can
:43:54. > :43:59.still deliver quality. Local councils are increasingly becoming
:43:59. > :44:04.commissioning bodies. So many services are outsourced. If they are
:44:04. > :44:08.outsourced, it is still public money and it needs accountability and
:44:08. > :44:16.oversight on behalf of residents. In that sense, it does not change. For
:44:16. > :44:23.many councils, we need to bear in mind innovation and creativity. In
:44:23. > :44:31.my council, we have cut �45 million. Over the next three years, we are
:44:31. > :44:36.forecasting another �38 million. Another 10% on top of that will be
:44:36. > :44:41.very difficult. Sharing services and being innovative and creative will
:44:41. > :44:46.not stop cuts of that magnitude. We need to make sure that any cuts are
:44:46. > :44:49.there across the country. And it is about the distribution of the cuts
:44:49. > :44:54.and what is becoming increasingly clear is the North of England is
:44:54. > :45:00.facing a very different problem from those in the South. Are we seeing a
:45:00. > :45:03.north-south divide in council funding? I am not sure if there is
:45:03. > :45:07.evidence for that. Laws of us in the North do need to fight and shout
:45:08. > :45:14.louder to ensure that the voice of our communities is heard in
:45:14. > :45:18.Westminster and Whitehall. But I think it's absolutely crucial that
:45:18. > :45:22.what happens is that, yes, we will live with Slims down local
:45:22. > :45:28.authorities, but they have to focus and attention on crucial services
:45:28. > :45:34.such as adult care and other things. Many people will still suspect there
:45:34. > :45:37.is an awful lot of waste going on. There was a programme on the other
:45:38. > :45:43.night about limousines and foreign trips will stop how can you cut back
:45:43. > :45:47.on that stuff? The generally accepted view is local government of
:45:47. > :45:50.the most efficient part of the public sector. It is not perfect and
:45:51. > :45:56.there are always things you can do. We are not talking about huge waste
:45:56. > :45:59.that can suddenly absorbed scale of the cuts we are talking about. There
:45:59. > :46:04.is a misdirection going on that it would be a problem for councils to
:46:04. > :46:08.take that kind of money out. But you can always do more. Every year,
:46:08. > :46:16.councils review themselves. Is it right in these austere
:46:17. > :46:21.circumstances? What we are asking for is a fair deal. We will make
:46:21. > :46:26.cuts, but we want to make sure it is fear across the board. In Barnsley,
:46:26. > :46:31.if you look at health and council funding, that is the big spending in
:46:31. > :46:39.public spending in the borough, it has been reduced by �50 million. In
:46:39. > :46:45.North East Lincolnshire, 20 billion per -- �20 million. In Hammersmith
:46:45. > :46:51.and Fulham, it has gone up by 19 million pounds. In Kensington and
:46:51. > :46:53.Chelsea, it has gone up by �63 million. I suspect that debate will
:46:53. > :46:56.go on long after the spending review on Wednesday.
:46:56. > :46:58.Last year, the Sunday Politics featured claims that a former
:46:58. > :47:01.Lincolnshire hospital chief was being gagged from speaking out about
:47:01. > :47:06.patient safety. Since then Gary Walker has become big news and is
:47:06. > :47:09.seen as one of the prominent NHS whistleblowers. Now it has emerged
:47:09. > :47:12.that millions of pounds has been paid out in gagging orders to public
:47:12. > :47:22.sector staff on the understanding they don't speak out about why they
:47:22. > :47:27.
:47:27. > :47:32.left their jobs. They are supposed to reinvest public
:47:32. > :47:34.money back into the services that communities rely on. But one
:47:34. > :47:41.particular aspect of public authority spending has remained in
:47:41. > :47:46.the shadows. Until now. We still don't know the full extent of the
:47:46. > :47:49.cost, but we are starting to realise this is a big problem. And new
:47:49. > :47:53.report by the National Audit Office lifts the lid on compromise
:47:53. > :47:58.agreements being paid to public sector workers when they leave their
:47:58. > :48:04.jobs. Guaranteeing that they go quietly. The National Audit Office
:48:04. > :48:09.found that more than �28 million has been paid out in so-called
:48:09. > :48:15.compromise agreements. To more than 1000 public sector staff over the
:48:15. > :48:25.past three years. The average payment was �15,000. The largest,
:48:25. > :48:26.
:48:26. > :48:31.266,000. The case of NHS whistleblower Gary Walker brought
:48:31. > :48:35.the issue to national attention. He breached a gagging clause based upon
:48:35. > :48:39.him by his former employers, the Lincolnshire hospitals trust.
:48:40. > :48:44.Although the trust said it never tried to stop him from speaking
:48:44. > :48:47.about patient safety. I think there should be a commission. I think all
:48:47. > :48:53.those compromise agreements need to be reviewed. We need to know what is
:48:53. > :48:56.on them, what has been hidden away. This is about protecting people,
:48:57. > :49:01.patient and society. Public money should not be used to cover things
:49:01. > :49:04.up. This report is critical of the lack of transparency in these
:49:04. > :49:07.agreements and the lack of accountability. It technologies that
:49:07. > :49:13.many of the people who signed them feel as though they are being
:49:13. > :49:15.gagged. There is a real danger that they are simply used to cover up
:49:16. > :49:19.mistakes and prevent whistleblowing. Taxpayers should have a right to
:49:19. > :49:25.know how their money is spent. These agreements should be put in the
:49:25. > :49:28.public domain and let taxpayers decide if it represents good value
:49:28. > :49:36.for money. Importantly, that will assure taxpayers that they are not
:49:36. > :49:44.being used as a cover-up. The union, Unison, says they have become the
:49:44. > :49:48.norm in out-of-court settlements. Frequently, an employer sees that is
:49:48. > :49:55.away of stopping a former employee bad-mouthing them in the press. On
:49:55. > :49:57.occasion, there are more sinister implications and they don't want the
:49:57. > :50:03.former employee talking about things that the public should know. This
:50:03. > :50:08.report is just one in a number of disclosures being made about
:50:08. > :50:13.out-of-court settlements in the public sector. Slowly but surely,
:50:13. > :50:22.like is being shone onto this little world -- little-known legal world.
:50:22. > :50:26.Gary Walker is with us now. Were you shocked when you heard that figure
:50:26. > :50:29.two 28th million pounds? I wouldn't say I was shocked. I think it is
:50:29. > :50:39.just the start finding out how much has been spent. Over the past weeks,
:50:39. > :50:43.
:50:43. > :50:47.we have heard that it is more than 28 million. You received half �1
:50:47. > :50:52.million on the understanding he would not speak out. If you find
:50:52. > :50:58.them so repugnant, why don't you pay the money back? I did not receive
:50:58. > :51:02.that amount. That is the cost to the health service for getting rid of
:51:02. > :51:07.me. In terms of the money I received, most of that went on legal
:51:07. > :51:14.fees. I don't think I was compensated anything like what has
:51:14. > :51:21.been said. Do you think this is acceptable? 1000 public sector staff
:51:21. > :51:24.paid over 28 million to keep quiet about terms of their employment?
:51:24. > :51:30.is totally unacceptable. I have been pleased with the response we have
:51:30. > :51:34.heard in the last few weeks. Jeremy Hunt has highlighted the fact he is
:51:34. > :51:41.strongly opposed to it. We must get to the bottom of this. Billions of
:51:41. > :51:47.public money is spent in the health service. On the whole, it provides a
:51:47. > :51:51.good service. And we have to get to the bottom of this. Jeremy Hunt
:51:51. > :51:56.might complain, but his own department has paid out millions on
:51:56. > :52:01.compromise agreements. I would hope that that does not happen now. There
:52:01. > :52:05.have been horrendous revelations in recent weeks. We must get to the
:52:05. > :52:08.bottom of this. I am sure he will make sure this does not happen in
:52:08. > :52:14.the future. Do you know how many compromise agreements have been
:52:14. > :52:19.signed off in recent years? Over the last 12 months, I think it was one.
:52:19. > :52:29.We have done it before. There is nothing wrong with using them for
:52:29. > :52:29.
:52:30. > :52:36.the right agreements. Sometimes employee disputes can be elongated.
:52:36. > :52:39.Finding a compromise between the parties can often save legal fees.
:52:39. > :52:46.In local government, the average pay-out is less than �10,000. Very
:52:46. > :52:54.different from what we have seen in the health service. They should not
:52:54. > :52:58.be used to gag people. The public would not want that. Do you think in
:52:58. > :53:05.some cases it is acceptable in local councils? I am not sure that is the
:53:05. > :53:10.case that you mentioned earlier on the dispatches programme. Be found
:53:10. > :53:20.36,000 compromise agreements. I think there is just as big an issue
:53:20. > :53:23.in local government as there is the risk across the public sector. The
:53:23. > :53:27.audit office are just starting to scratch the surface of this. It will
:53:27. > :53:31.take much more than the report issued today to convince me that
:53:31. > :53:38.anyone knows what is going on. don't you public these details on
:53:38. > :53:45.your website? It is published through the National account
:53:45. > :53:48.office. It is there for others to see. I can say that the cost of this
:53:48. > :53:54.to local government looks very different from the NHS. Many
:53:54. > :54:01.conservatives complain about a lack of transparency. But the government
:54:01. > :54:09.is in the process of scrapping the audit office. Auditing will still
:54:09. > :54:12.take place, just through a different route. It is vital that independent
:54:12. > :54:18.accountants are used to get to the bottom of these cases. In your
:54:18. > :54:23.trust, -- in your case, the trust is insisting that you were never
:54:23. > :54:28.prevented from speaking out against patient safety. That is simply not
:54:29. > :54:36.true. I was about to go on the today programme. The BBC had filmed me.
:54:36. > :54:40.NHS sent me a letter threatening me with legal action if the programme
:54:40. > :54:48.went ahead. That programme was about patient safety. We have heard about
:54:48. > :54:52.many horrific cover-ups. You think there are more stories to be told?
:54:52. > :54:57.think it is just one example with the CQC. Organisations are getting
:54:57. > :55:04.caught because people are starting to look. Often it is people outside
:55:04. > :55:09.the NHS who are finding things, like in Morecambe Bay. What should a
:55:09. > :55:18.government be doing now? The first thing they can do is look at the
:55:18. > :55:21.number of compromise agreements that are out there and ask what is in.
:55:21. > :55:27.The Treasury called the fact there is a compromise agreement, but they
:55:27. > :55:31.don't know what is in it. The National Audit Office could only
:55:31. > :55:37.find 50 that they could look at. There are tens of thousands of
:55:37. > :55:41.these. That could be some quite reasonable departures. But there
:55:41. > :55:47.might be things which are more sinister. The fact is we just don't
:55:47. > :55:53.know. You are determined to stay on the government's case? I will not
:55:53. > :55:56.quit until the government know what is going on and they have told us.
:55:56. > :56:03.Now let's get some more of the week's political news now with our
:56:03. > :56:11.round-up in 60 seconds. This week, the story is about a Spy
:56:11. > :56:18.Base in Harrogate. The American run base was exposed as being involved
:56:18. > :56:23.in some of the most embarrassing espionage leaks in recent years.
:56:23. > :56:27.They had hacked into satellite communications of Dmitry Medvedev,
:56:27. > :56:34.the former Russian leader. Hull have made it into the shortlist for the
:56:34. > :56:43.next city of culture. Hull will compete against Dundee, Leicester
:56:43. > :56:46.and Swansea. If Hull is successful, it could be the biggest boost to the
:56:46. > :56:51.city's economy in decades. In Barnsley, there have been protests
:56:51. > :56:54.over government changes to council tax benefit. The town's council,
:56:54. > :57:00.along with other local authorities in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, is
:57:00. > :57:06.taking thousands of people to court for nonpayment of council tax.
:57:06. > :57:10.Householders are now liable for a percentage of the charge.
:57:10. > :57:16.What do you make of those scenes outside Barnsley Magistrates' Court?
:57:16. > :57:21.People protesting against the summons which have been issued by
:57:21. > :57:26.your council. I understand how they feel. We are in a difficult
:57:26. > :57:33.situation. The cut in council tax benefit has been passed on to local
:57:33. > :57:37.government. Many people are suddenly finding themselves with large bills.
:57:37. > :57:43.I appreciate their concerns. As I counsel, we have to be the law and
:57:43. > :57:47.collect the tax. If you are struggling, contact us and we will
:57:47. > :57:54.do all we can to help them pay and get through this difficult period.
:57:54. > :57:59.Summonses will still be issued? We don't have a choice on that. We will
:57:59. > :58:04.see more people in court in the coming months. They will say that
:58:04. > :58:07.they just can't afford to pay their council tax. Council tax has been
:58:07. > :58:12.frozen for the last three years thanks to the Conservative
:58:12. > :58:15.government. The government have recognised that this is a difficult
:58:15. > :58:20.tax and it has imposed on so many households that are finding life
:58:20. > :58:26.difficult. There has been a sympathetic approach from
:58:26. > :58:30.government. Yes, I recognise what Steve is saying. We have to be
:58:30. > :58:34.mindful of the fact that for those who don't pay, they are putting a
:58:34. > :58:39.bigger burden on the vast majority who do pay. We have got to take
:58:39. > :58:46.action to recover debt. We are seeing hull fighting it out with
:58:46. > :58:53.other cities for UK city of culture. I think these accolades
:58:53. > :59:00.work. The number of cities that are interested in this show that.
:59:00. > :59:07.Culture, the arts, tourism. They are all huge economic drivers. We wish
:59:07. > :59:12.hull good luck. What about Cleethorpes and Grimsby? Everybody
:59:12. > :59:17.knows that we are the centre of the universe. If people are going to
:59:17. > :59:21.hull underspending time in the river and sea in the best guest houses and