:00:39. > :00:45.Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a
:00:46. > :00:49.vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.
:00:50. > :00:53.His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is
:00:54. > :00:59.Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities
:01:00. > :01:04.Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior
:01:05. > :01:10.coppers will be answering questions this week over
:01:11. > :01:13.On the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, why Michael
:01:14. > :01:15.Heseltine as swung to the defence of Northern cities, amid claims they
:01:16. > :01:20.should be left to decay. Northern cities, amid claims they
:01:21. > :01:32.have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home
:01:33. > :01:37.Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a
:01:38. > :01:42.wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will
:01:43. > :01:50.join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen
:01:51. > :01:56.Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme,
:01:57. > :02:01.using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party
:02:02. > :02:04.conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has
:02:05. > :02:09.been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts
:02:10. > :02:15.to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far,
:02:16. > :02:18.20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of
:02:19. > :02:28.the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First they report on the independence
:02:29. > :02:33.campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the
:02:34. > :02:37.day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for
:02:38. > :02:42.independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote
:02:43. > :02:47.either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the
:02:48. > :02:50.Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an
:02:51. > :02:56.awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in
:02:57. > :03:00.terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation
:03:01. > :03:04.of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of
:03:05. > :03:09.negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government.
:03:10. > :03:14.That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls
:03:15. > :03:18.suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent
:03:19. > :03:24.survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 5%
:03:25. > :03:29.yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting
:03:30. > :03:34.that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are
:03:35. > :03:40.a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It
:03:41. > :03:43.does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their
:03:44. > :03:47.own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it
:03:48. > :03:52.allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no
:03:53. > :03:56.campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big
:03:57. > :04:00.ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do
:04:01. > :04:05.know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting
:04:06. > :04:09.more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into
:04:10. > :04:12.force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of
:04:13. > :04:16.pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative
:04:17. > :04:20.would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by
:04:21. > :04:24.independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the
:04:25. > :04:27.currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance
:04:28. > :04:31.the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the
:04:32. > :04:35.Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a
:04:36. > :04:39.Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation
:04:40. > :04:42.it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish
:04:43. > :04:46.government's White Paper on independence, two to be published
:04:47. > :04:53.within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in
:04:54. > :05:00.September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it
:05:01. > :05:02.knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister,
:05:03. > :05:10.Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former
:05:11. > :05:14.leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it
:05:15. > :05:19.will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of
:05:20. > :05:25.their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British
:05:26. > :05:29.identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much
:05:30. > :05:34.loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the
:05:35. > :05:38.independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and
:05:39. > :05:45.proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power
:05:46. > :05:49.best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a
:05:50. > :05:53.government which is directly accountable to the people of
:05:54. > :05:57.Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which,
:05:58. > :06:01.very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at
:06:02. > :06:11.the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with
:06:12. > :06:16.him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British
:06:17. > :06:20.identity of Scottish people? No I do not think we are required to
:06:21. > :06:25.attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody
:06:26. > :06:28.to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish
:06:29. > :06:34.independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of
:06:35. > :06:37.power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring
:06:38. > :06:40.that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the
:06:41. > :06:45.biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a
:06:46. > :06:49.constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many
:06:50. > :06:53.people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity,
:06:54. > :06:57.many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many
:06:58. > :07:01.of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at
:07:02. > :07:06.stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks
:07:07. > :07:09.like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly
:07:10. > :07:13.approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will
:07:14. > :07:19.still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving
:07:20. > :07:25.over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know
:07:26. > :07:32.that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice
:07:33. > :07:37.between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own
:07:38. > :07:42.hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which
:07:43. > :07:46.will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not
:07:47. > :07:49.become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having
:07:50. > :07:55.governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland
:07:56. > :07:58.rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social
:07:59. > :08:02.security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are
:08:03. > :08:08.itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice
:08:09. > :08:11.of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences
:08:12. > :08:18.of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you
:08:19. > :08:22.are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage.
:08:23. > :08:25.You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that
:08:26. > :08:30.nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind
:08:31. > :08:36.of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a
:08:37. > :08:41.once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland
:08:42. > :08:50.really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? --
:08:51. > :08:56.existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making
:08:57. > :09:01.powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP
:09:02. > :09:03.government would do, if elected A decision on what the first
:09:04. > :09:07.government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken
:09:08. > :09:13.in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election.
:09:14. > :09:15.And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the
:09:16. > :09:19.electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is
:09:20. > :09:26.important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of
:09:27. > :09:30.support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the
:09:31. > :09:34.rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of
:09:35. > :09:37.the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to
:09:38. > :09:42.Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of
:09:43. > :09:48.independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist
:09:49. > :09:51.near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of
:09:52. > :09:56.centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you
:09:57. > :10:02.are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that
:10:03. > :10:05.case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that
:10:06. > :10:11.people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So,
:10:12. > :10:15.right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because
:10:16. > :10:19.people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the
:10:20. > :10:23.opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion and
:10:24. > :10:27.if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a
:10:28. > :10:30.government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence.
:10:31. > :10:35.Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in
:10:36. > :10:39.Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly
:10:40. > :10:43.democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current
:10:44. > :10:59.government, points out the opportunities that would be opening
:11:00. > :11:03.up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics
:11:04. > :11:09.earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he
:11:10. > :11:12.wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he
:11:13. > :11:22.would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He
:11:23. > :11:26.made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he
:11:27. > :11:29.would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr
:11:30. > :11:35.Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex
:11:36. > :11:39.Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that
:11:40. > :11:43.agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and
:11:44. > :11:49.then Alex Salmond, just like me will debate with allcomers. So if he
:11:50. > :11:54.does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the
:11:55. > :11:59.others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the
:12:00. > :12:08.right thing. So, in other words he will not debate, yes or no? Members
:12:09. > :12:14.of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond?
:12:15. > :12:17.He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including
:12:18. > :12:34.the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let
:12:35. > :12:41.off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices
:12:42. > :12:46.are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do
:12:47. > :12:51.something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is
:12:52. > :12:55.the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband
:12:56. > :12:59.electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze
:13:00. > :13:02.energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control
:13:03. > :13:08.over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes
:13:09. > :13:13.prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon
:13:14. > :13:16.is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills
:13:17. > :13:21.for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they
:13:22. > :13:25.will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is
:13:26. > :13:29.a credible government, making a credible case, very different to
:13:30. > :13:34.what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So,
:13:35. > :13:39.Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist
:13:40. > :13:48.policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to
:13:49. > :13:52.this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money
:13:53. > :13:56.pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing,
:13:57. > :14:01.social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has
:14:02. > :14:05.been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the
:14:06. > :14:09.difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to
:14:10. > :14:12.do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good
:14:13. > :14:18.times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories
:14:19. > :14:23.would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to
:14:24. > :14:29.some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in
:14:30. > :14:38.the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really
:14:39. > :14:41.are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate
:14:42. > :14:46.this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to
:14:47. > :14:51.their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to
:14:52. > :14:55.fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition
:14:56. > :14:59.policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to
:15:00. > :15:02.hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition
:15:03. > :15:08.partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy
:15:09. > :15:12.into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say,
:15:13. > :15:15.if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill
:15:16. > :15:20.because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is
:15:21. > :15:24.entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do
:15:25. > :15:28.not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in
:15:29. > :15:34.Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David
:15:35. > :15:40.Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to
:15:41. > :15:58.local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is...
:15:59. > :16:02.Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the
:16:03. > :16:08.Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In
:16:09. > :16:11.the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using
:16:12. > :16:15.CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to
:16:16. > :16:19.act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised
:16:20. > :16:24.councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release
:16:25. > :16:30.land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new
:16:31. > :16:34.homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a
:16:35. > :16:38.week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active
:16:39. > :16:43.Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is
:16:44. > :16:46.it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric
:16:47. > :17:00.Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview.
:17:01. > :17:06.Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town
:17:07. > :17:15.halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from
:17:16. > :17:22.Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going
:17:23. > :17:29.beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up
:17:30. > :17:35.their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked
:17:36. > :17:39.councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules.
:17:40. > :17:45.Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place.
:17:46. > :17:52.You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If
:17:53. > :17:59.you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks
:18:00. > :18:03.before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no
:18:04. > :18:09.possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to
:18:10. > :18:15.people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and
:18:16. > :18:22.it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund
:18:23. > :18:26.general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are
:18:27. > :18:34.breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local
:18:35. > :18:42.residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to
:18:43. > :18:48.micromanage, allowing motorist s to park for 15 minutes in local high
:18:49. > :18:52.street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local
:18:53. > :18:59.authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If
:19:00. > :19:03.you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway
:19:04. > :19:09.but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials
:19:10. > :19:15.for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and
:19:16. > :19:20.get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a
:19:21. > :19:26.matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the
:19:27. > :19:34.side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of
:19:35. > :19:39.milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the
:19:40. > :19:45.council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You
:19:46. > :19:48.have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes
:19:49. > :19:59.should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help
:20:00. > :20:06.meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in
:20:07. > :20:16.charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some
:20:17. > :20:25.responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning
:20:26. > :20:30.decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They
:20:31. > :20:38.want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and
:20:39. > :20:43.district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision
:20:44. > :20:49.runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a
:20:50. > :20:58.blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to
:20:59. > :21:11.judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled
:21:12. > :21:16.to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that
:21:17. > :21:24.is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision
:21:25. > :21:28.that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an
:21:29. > :21:35.inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2 12,
:21:36. > :21:42.he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and
:21:43. > :21:46.local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being
:21:47. > :21:59.plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper
:22:00. > :22:03.quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local
:22:04. > :22:10.people can decide where it goes But they cannot say, nothing here. They
:22:11. > :22:15.have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government
:22:16. > :22:23.decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the
:22:24. > :22:26.lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local
:22:27. > :22:36.authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green
:22:37. > :22:40.belt land. I do not accept that I think around Nottingham there are
:22:41. > :22:48.particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been
:22:49. > :22:59.referred back. the green belt. The matter has been
:23:00. > :23:05.want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want
:23:06. > :23:06.to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green
:23:07. > :23:13.belt. Not to remember why we have the green
:23:14. > :23:13.nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one
:23:14. > :23:18.another. Your conurbations bumping into one
:23:19. > :23:23.is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under
:23:24. > :23:35.provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year.
:23:36. > :23:35.provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting
:23:36. > :23:38.there, but nowhere near that. - housing. You cannot
:23:39. > :23:40.there, but nowhere near that. - localism agenda as well as meeting
:23:41. > :23:53.housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where
:23:54. > :23:59.the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has
:24:00. > :24:05.steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism
:24:06. > :24:10.agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the
:24:11. > :24:16.housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations
:24:17. > :24:21.have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is
:24:22. > :24:27.nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to
:24:28. > :24:34.be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure
:24:35. > :24:40.there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000
:24:41. > :24:45.homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will
:24:46. > :24:50.mean riding over local concerns Each application will be taken on
:24:51. > :24:55.its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green
:24:56. > :24:59.belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell
:25:00. > :25:04.get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to
:25:05. > :25:11.sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his
:25:12. > :25:15.version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in
:25:16. > :25:23.government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet?
:25:24. > :25:27.Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls
:25:28. > :25:33.said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done
:25:34. > :25:37.that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept
:25:38. > :25:44.the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have
:25:45. > :25:50.an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can
:25:51. > :25:55.move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that
:25:56. > :26:02.is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson,
:26:03. > :26:07.you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press
:26:08. > :26:16.has to flow without restriction That is what I said at the time We
:26:17. > :26:22.had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better
:26:23. > :26:34.compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that
:26:35. > :26:43.we have. I could not be happier Then you are in the Desert and there
:26:44. > :26:56.you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my
:26:57. > :27:02.personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and
:27:03. > :27:08.took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become
:27:09. > :27:13.a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one
:27:14. > :27:21.day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would
:27:22. > :27:29.they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I
:27:30. > :27:37.went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you.
:27:38. > :27:40.On Wednesday senior police folk including chief constables, will be
:27:41. > :27:44.questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the
:27:45. > :27:47.incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the
:27:48. > :27:49.government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent
:27:50. > :27:51.Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and
:27:52. > :27:57.integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row.
:27:58. > :28:04.So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's
:28:05. > :28:10.Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the
:28:11. > :28:13.police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher
:28:14. > :28:19.called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis.
:28:20. > :28:23.It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament
:28:24. > :28:28.After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the
:28:29. > :28:32.ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both
:28:33. > :28:37.were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their
:28:38. > :28:44.trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events
:28:45. > :28:51.just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this
:28:52. > :28:56.which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So
:28:57. > :29:03.when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would
:29:04. > :29:06.not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people
:29:07. > :29:11.have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us
:29:12. > :29:14.believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation.
:29:15. > :29:21.And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out
:29:22. > :29:25.about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to
:29:26. > :29:31.congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply
:29:32. > :29:35.acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last
:29:36. > :29:38.September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing
:29:39. > :29:41.Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations
:29:42. > :29:47.he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the
:29:48. > :29:51.police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied
:29:52. > :29:57.about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to
:29:58. > :30:01.the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the
:30:02. > :30:05.police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The
:30:06. > :30:11.prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson
:30:12. > :30:14.during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were
:30:15. > :30:19.told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest
:30:20. > :30:25.by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really
:30:26. > :30:28.relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's
:30:29. > :30:32.view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of
:30:33. > :30:39.the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since
:30:40. > :30:48.pollsters started measuring it 0 years ago.
:30:49. > :30:54.Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be
:30:55. > :30:58.that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently
:30:59. > :31:04.seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a
:31:05. > :31:10.police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still
:31:11. > :31:14.a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is
:31:15. > :31:18.affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think
:31:19. > :31:23.politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much.
:31:24. > :31:30.Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust
:31:31. > :31:36.in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former
:31:37. > :31:42.chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the
:31:43. > :31:48.cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson,
:31:49. > :31:54.the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of
:31:55. > :31:58.deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural
:31:59. > :32:02.deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual
:32:03. > :32:05.issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of
:32:06. > :32:14.them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive
:32:15. > :32:18.about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen
:32:19. > :32:21.with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior
:32:22. > :32:32.officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies
:32:33. > :32:36.being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start
:32:37. > :32:41.with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed
:32:42. > :32:45.for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got
:32:46. > :32:51.this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces
:32:52. > :32:59.there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a
:33:00. > :33:04.handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police
:33:05. > :33:08.officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even
:33:09. > :33:16.today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken
:33:17. > :33:19.to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some
:33:20. > :33:26.of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the
:33:27. > :33:31.evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a
:33:32. > :33:34.lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has
:33:35. > :33:38.clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The
:33:39. > :33:44.audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet
:33:45. > :33:48.minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not
:33:49. > :33:51.been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending
:33:52. > :33:57.to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in
:33:58. > :34:00.prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of
:34:01. > :34:04.different bits of that incident There is the officers on duty in
:34:05. > :34:09.Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there
:34:10. > :34:12.are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to
:34:13. > :34:15.have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting
:34:16. > :34:24.issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been
:34:25. > :34:27.misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an
:34:28. > :34:32.organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and
:34:33. > :34:35.destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the
:34:36. > :34:39.Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their
:34:40. > :34:43.pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us the
:34:44. > :34:46.public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are
:34:47. > :34:51.going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police
:34:52. > :35:00.would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there
:35:01. > :35:05.if there is a crisis of trust.. But it looks like they fitted up a
:35:06. > :35:11.Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We
:35:12. > :35:16.know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if
:35:17. > :35:20.not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a
:35:21. > :35:24.misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what
:35:25. > :35:31.is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has
:35:32. > :35:37.told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn't.
:35:38. > :35:42.He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely,
:35:43. > :35:47.he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not
:35:48. > :35:53.said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police
:35:54. > :35:56.forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the
:35:57. > :36:02.land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in
:36:03. > :36:08.society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but
:36:09. > :36:16.what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad
:36:17. > :36:19.apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people,
:36:20. > :36:22.thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the
:36:23. > :36:27.bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are
:36:28. > :36:30.standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does
:36:31. > :36:34.not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with
:36:35. > :36:39.a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to
:36:40. > :36:42.be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution...
:36:43. > :36:50.For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is
:36:51. > :36:56.there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister,
:36:57. > :37:00.you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved
:37:01. > :37:04.that anybody has been fitted up. We are yet to hear what happened at the
:37:05. > :37:09.gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing
:37:10. > :37:16.Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had
:37:17. > :37:26.heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied.
:37:27. > :37:32.That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All
:37:33. > :37:43.right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as
:37:44. > :37:47.a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics
:37:48. > :37:51.should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on
:37:52. > :37:55.strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for
:37:56. > :38:01.that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a
:38:02. > :38:07.more competent and properly resourced Independent police
:38:08. > :38:11.commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police
:38:12. > :38:18.officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force
:38:19. > :38:24.we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will
:38:25. > :38:27.leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking
:38:28. > :38:36.to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The Week Ahead,
:38:37. > :38:41.Hello, you're watching the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire
:38:42. > :38:45.and the North Midlands. Coming up today: Can we continue to protect
:38:46. > :38:53.our green belt, amid pressure to build thousands of new homes?
:38:54. > :38:57.And why the man they used to call Tarzan has swung to the defence of
:38:58. > :39:02.Northern towns and cities, after claims they should be left to decay.
:39:03. > :39:06.We'll be discussing the regeneration game in a moment, with our guests `
:39:07. > :39:10.it's nice to see them, to see them, nice. Toby Perkins is the Labour MP
:39:11. > :39:15.for Chesterfield and Shadow Small Business Minister, and Stuart Andrew
:39:16. > :39:18.is the Conservative MP for Pudsey. Welcome to you both. Well, we've had
:39:19. > :39:22.falling unemployment this week, thousands of new jobs created we are
:39:23. > :39:27.told, Toby Perkins ` has this been a good week for our economy? Well, I
:39:28. > :39:31.think it's obviously great news when we see unemployment going down. But
:39:32. > :39:35.what there's a real sense at the moment is that it's a recovery for
:39:36. > :39:38.some ` we're seeing huge growth in London and the South East, but
:39:39. > :39:41.beneath those job figures what we're also seeing is a huge amount of
:39:42. > :39:45.underemployment, lots of people in part`time work that want to be in
:39:46. > :39:49.full`time work, and a lot of people who are in work but also in poverty,
:39:50. > :39:53.so there is a real sense that the general public are being left behind
:39:54. > :39:56.by some of the good news that the country's seeing. Stuart Andrew,
:39:57. > :40:00.what are you saying to your constituents who come to you and
:40:01. > :40:04.say, "We can't afford our gas and electric bills now, they've gone up
:40:05. > :40:07.so much? What's the Government doing about it?" Well, the first thing we
:40:08. > :40:11.have to do is get the economy repaired, and that has taken a
:40:12. > :40:14.considerable amount of time and a lot of effort of course, because it
:40:15. > :40:19.was in a terrible State when we inherited it. And the fact is that
:40:20. > :40:21.there are as you say over a million new private sector jobs have been
:40:22. > :40:26.created, unemployment is falling, that is good ` but we've got a long
:40:27. > :40:28.way to go, get the economy right and then we can help with the cost of
:40:29. > :40:32.living. Well, we'll chat more in a moment
:40:33. > :40:35.because I want you both to ponder this question. Should the Government
:40:36. > :40:38.spending taps be turned off in areas which are deemed to be beyond hope?
:40:39. > :40:42.That was the controversial suggestion in a magazine this week
:40:43. > :40:44.which listed a number of Northern towns and cities described as
:40:45. > :40:48."decaying". There's been an outcry in Hull, one of the places mentioned
:40:49. > :40:51.in the Economist article. Now the former Deputy Prime Minister has
:40:52. > :40:55.entered the debate ` he says cities like Hull can learn from Liverpool,
:40:56. > :41:12.where he led a programme of economic regeneration in the 1980s.
:41:13. > :41:18.With its waterfront, dogs and industrial heritage, Liverpool has
:41:19. > :41:23.much in common with Harle, its fellow maritime city at the other
:41:24. > :41:27.end of the M 62. Many people here will look at
:41:28. > :41:33.Liverpool with some envy. In recent years it has had some's one of the
:41:34. > :41:36.fastest`growing economies in the UK, so it's hard to imagine that just
:41:37. > :41:43.over 30 years there was talk in Government of abandoning the city.
:41:44. > :41:49.Archive documents reveal that following riots in Liverpool in
:41:50. > :41:54.1981, the then Chancellor, Geoffrey Howe, suggested a pro`dash back
:41:55. > :41:59.programme of managed decline. There was an echo of that era in the
:42:00. > :42:04.latest edition of the Economist, an article suggested that the
:42:05. > :42:10.Government should not pour any more money into so`called failing cities
:42:11. > :42:14.such as Tab Micro `` Hull. For a lot time Government has put effort into
:42:15. > :42:21.trying to move jobs were the people are, and it has not really work. We
:42:22. > :42:29.have still seen these predicted `` persistent divides, in Hull 27% of
:42:30. > :42:33.households have nobody in work. Former Liverpool MP and Labour
:42:34. > :42:37.Minister Peter Kilfoyle says he has heard that argument before, and
:42:38. > :42:43.claims it has been proved wrong. We had a think tank a few years ago,
:42:44. > :42:49.saying places in the North should be abandoned and everybody moved down
:42:50. > :42:52.to London and Oxford. This is nonsense. Any forward`looking
:42:53. > :42:58.Government, any forward`looking society, would want to invest in
:42:59. > :43:01.Hull as they invest in Liverpool. Does that come a point where the
:43:02. > :43:07.Government has to stop spending money on a city if there are no
:43:08. > :43:12.results. Any Government that says that has to ask themselves, why have
:43:13. > :43:17.they not put the results they set out to obtain? Part of the reason is
:43:18. > :43:20.that so much in this country is concentrated in the South East. We
:43:21. > :43:24.cannot continue with everything being emphasised in the South East
:43:25. > :43:29.at the cost of the rest of the country. All that means is you have
:43:30. > :43:34.an affordable transport costs in the South East, unaffordable housing
:43:35. > :43:38.costs. Now the man who was credited with turning Liverpool's fortunes
:43:39. > :43:59.around back in the 1980s has entered the debate. Lord Heseltine has been
:44:00. > :44:01.commissioned by the present Government to look at ways of
:44:02. > :44:03.boosting economic growth in cities like Hull. The former Deputy Prime
:44:04. > :44:05.Minister says the solution is devolving more power away from
:44:06. > :44:08.London. What I am arguing and have been trying to show over decades is
:44:09. > :44:11.that you would be much better off saying what would you do if you
:44:12. > :44:13.originated the idea is, because you actually know what Leeds needs, what
:44:14. > :44:16.Bradford needs, what Hull needs. Let us that the other way up. The first
:44:17. > :44:21.thing is to find out who is in charge, that is why I believe in
:44:22. > :44:26.directly elected chief executives. Everybody knows about London and
:44:27. > :44:29.Boris Johnson. Ministers have dismissed talk of struggling
:44:30. > :44:33.Northern cities being abandoned by Government, a move which would be
:44:34. > :44:42.sure to make waves from the Humber to the Mersey. Mueller is there ever
:44:43. > :44:45.an economic argument for the Government's pulling up like a city
:44:46. > :44:51.scene is failing? I would not advocate that. I am in
:44:52. > :44:55.complete agreement with Lord Heseltine, that we need to give the
:44:56. > :44:59.power to those towns and cities because the people who live there
:45:00. > :45:05.understand it and know what will work to help regenerate the
:45:06. > :45:10.economy. It has worked in places like Liverpool. Here in Leeds we
:45:11. > :45:14.have a fantastic city. There is a danger that you will portray the
:45:15. > :45:18.North is being a wasteland of cities and towns, but there are lots of
:45:19. > :45:24.great economic activities going on. We need the leadership in place that
:45:25. > :45:29.Lord Heseltine mentions. But why have so many of our northern cities
:45:30. > :45:35.been left behind? Anna what we are seeing at the moment is an increase
:45:36. > :45:40.in the North`South divide. Recently we had a programme to rebuild the
:45:41. > :45:45.infrastructure and get economic growth going. The two areas that got
:45:46. > :45:50.the most were London and the south`east. Humber got less than
:45:51. > :45:54.Dorset, Oxfordshire, Thames Valley and Berkshire. The local authority
:45:55. > :45:57.cuts are following most strongly in areas in the north. So what we are
:45:58. > :46:02.seeing is the rhetoric of the Government not being backed up by
:46:03. > :46:04.the reality of where the money is going.
:46:05. > :46:13.This North`South divide has. Just happened. They were in Government
:46:14. > :46:17.over the last 13 years, and the divide got very wide. There is
:46:18. > :46:23.massive investment happening in our infrastructure projects. The
:46:24. > :46:28.northern hop on the railways will make a huge difference in connecting
:46:29. > :46:33.our towns and cities. We are investing in road infrastructure as
:46:34. > :46:38.well, and the regional growth fund is bringing in billions of pounds of
:46:39. > :46:46.extra private investment. This is what we need to create the jobs here
:46:47. > :46:52.to get rid of that divide. What we actually saw over 13 years of Labour
:46:53. > :46:58.Government was a renaissance in Arab British cities. We saw areas that
:46:59. > :47:04.have been so badly let go of by British `` Mrs Thatcher's Government
:47:05. > :47:08.started regenerate. Over the last three years we have seen a reversal
:47:09. > :47:17.of that where the cuts that came into Leeds, and an increase in
:47:18. > :47:26.London and the south`east. At nation Prime Minister. `` two nation Prime
:47:27. > :47:31.Minister. Michael Heseltine says he wants at mini`Boris in towns in the
:47:32. > :47:36.north. In Doncaster they rejected that. I thought that was a good
:47:37. > :47:41.idea, to have somebody who is a figurehead for our major cities. It
:47:42. > :47:44.has worked well in London as he said. But there was a referendum,
:47:45. > :47:52.the people made their decision and we have to abide by that. Would you
:47:53. > :47:56.like more elected mayors? We were originally supportive of the idea,
:47:57. > :48:00.but the most important thing is you go to local democracy and see what
:48:01. > :48:04.people want. It is clear that in most of the areas they did not want
:48:05. > :48:09.an elected mayor, so that is up to the to decide. Peter Kilfoyle do you
:48:10. > :48:20.think too much of our power is centred on London? I I am keen to
:48:21. > :48:28.see more power devolved down to local authorities.
:48:29. > :48:33.When you go to Whitehall and see thousands of people churning out of
:48:34. > :48:37.those offices at lunchtime, surely some of those people could be
:48:38. > :48:44.working on both? Yes, there should be more of those Government
:48:45. > :48:48.departments moving up here. I am all for devolving power, but it does not
:48:49. > :48:52.tally with a Government that has had the biggest cuts of all the
:48:53. > :48:55.departments. They are saying to council leaders up and down the
:48:56. > :48:59.north, you make the tough decisions, and you have to decide whether to
:49:00. > :49:03.shut the library or cut back on social services. So the rhetoric
:49:04. > :49:09.about devolving the power to local Government doesn't match up with
:49:10. > :49:20.cutting the findings. Most of these people who come up with the clearest
:49:21. > :49:27.look about 12. Theories. This is why politics needs people from all
:49:28. > :49:30.different backgrounds. Now, we're told frequently by
:49:31. > :49:35.politicians we live on a crowded island. They will also tell us there
:49:36. > :49:38.is a serious housing shortage. Those same politicians might also in the
:49:39. > :49:42.same breath agree we have to protect the green belt. So how do we square
:49:43. > :49:45.that circle? Is it time to change how we decide where hundreds of
:49:46. > :49:48.thousands of houses should be built in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire over
:49:49. > :50:02.the next 25 years? Here's Louise Martin.
:50:03. > :50:08.Here are the numbers of houses proposed for possible building over
:50:09. > :50:12.the next two decades across Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, some of
:50:13. > :50:16.which will be built on green belt. England's green and pleasant lands
:50:17. > :50:18.have been immortalised in song and portrait, but campaigners say those
:50:19. > :50:32.lands are now under threat by new homes. Hilary Benn spoke to
:50:33. > :50:36.concerned residents in Aireborough. They are not happy about a
:50:37. > :50:42.consultation that may seem `` would see homes built on green belt.
:50:43. > :50:46.Planning is so important because it allows communities to say, not
:50:47. > :50:51.here, but here. One of the first neighbourhood plans in the country
:50:52. > :50:56.that has gone to a referendum in Oxfordshire is proposing building
:50:57. > :50:59.775 new homes in the area. I think three quarters of the people who
:51:00. > :51:04.came out to vote voted in favour of the plan. Why did they do that?
:51:05. > :51:09.Because they had had the chance to shape whether new development is
:51:10. > :51:14.going to go. This field is one of many that Leeds City Council looked
:51:15. > :51:18.at during their consultation for development proposals. And it is
:51:19. > :51:21.green belt. But with up to 70,000 homes that could be built in the
:51:22. > :51:28.city region, and the planning minister saying the green belt is
:51:29. > :51:31.safe for now, locals are worried. Francesco's home backs onto this
:51:32. > :51:38.land. She is concerned if they build here, it will have a big impact on
:51:39. > :51:45.infrastructure. I think more local people need to say, the a 65 is not
:51:46. > :51:52.moving already. Is it really a good idea to put more houses here? So I
:51:53. > :51:56.think as a community we need to work together. So with an increasing push
:51:57. > :52:00.to build as more homes are needed across the region, residents are not
:52:01. > :52:03.happy about the level of involvement they are being given on decisions.
:52:04. > :52:09.They want to be allowed to suggest areas were building can take place.
:52:10. > :52:14.That idea is being backed by a local `` leading think tank. People want
:52:15. > :52:20.to know that if they say yes to some homes now, they will have control
:52:21. > :52:25.over what they look like. It will not be decided by someone from the
:52:26. > :52:31.council or from London. Policy exchange say that planning powers
:52:32. > :52:35.need to be spread far and wide. So if we are going to increase ``
:52:36. > :52:43.address the housing shortage, do we need to rip it all up and start
:52:44. > :52:48.again? New life `` we are going to have to make some difficult
:52:49. > :52:50.decisions, which will mean birdie on the green belt.
:52:51. > :52:57.It will certainly mean serious decisions. We are needing `` the
:52:58. > :53:03.last time we had a housing crisis of this size was because of Adolf
:53:04. > :53:10.Hitler and the Luftwaffe. The Labour Party have said if private
:53:11. > :53:14.developers do not sit `` last night we will allow councils to go to them
:53:15. > :53:20.and say either use this land or you use `` lose it. That would get us to
:53:21. > :53:28.was the level of house building we need. Stuart, you represent a leafy
:53:29. > :53:32.rather suburban constituency which has a lot of new houses planned over
:53:33. > :53:36.the next couple of years. How do you square the circle between the need
:53:37. > :53:41.for new houses in protecting the green belt? I was a councillor for
:53:42. > :53:46.that area in the film for a number of years. They have had their fair
:53:47. > :53:52.share of building in fairness. Every bit of Brownfield site has been used
:53:53. > :53:57.for housing. The problem is that the housing figures projected for the
:53:58. > :54:01.next 14 years certainly here by Leeds City Council are totally
:54:02. > :54:06.unrealistic. Never before has the city ever built that number of
:54:07. > :54:10.houses. So I am saying the City Council themselves are saying it is
:54:11. > :54:15.highly ambitious... So people should not be living in these? No, let us
:54:16. > :54:19.build more houses but let us be realistic so we are saying to the
:54:20. > :54:24.developers to use a brown field sites first, and then we will
:54:25. > :54:36.release step`by`step and slowly, the green belt sites. At the moment the
:54:37. > :54:39.way we are going, we will be in real danger of releasing far too much
:54:40. > :54:42.green belt sites. Do people want to live on Brownfield sites? People
:54:43. > :54:46.want to live next to green fields with trees. Demand is always a key
:54:47. > :54:54.issue. But what we are seeing at the moment is big housing companies
:54:55. > :55:01.buying up pieces of land, land banking, waiting for the value of
:55:02. > :55:05.that land to go up... Ed Miliband is going to nationalise it. No, we will
:55:06. > :55:09.give councils the opportunity to put escalating fees and people sitting
:55:10. > :55:14.there with planning permission, and eventually we will clean up the
:55:15. > :55:18.comprehensive `` compulsory purchase orders to allow councils to take
:55:19. > :55:22.hold of that land and get something done. But you either have to support
:55:23. > :55:27.what we are saying and that, by getting them to build on green belt.
:55:28. > :55:33.We have 2 million too few houses at the moment. I will not be lectured
:55:34. > :55:37.by the Labour Party that created the planning problems that most of my
:55:38. > :55:41.constituents have had for the last ten years. I am saying that I do not
:55:42. > :55:45.agree with you, I do not agree that people do not want to live in those
:55:46. > :55:51.areas. What we have to do is create the places where people want to
:55:52. > :55:53.live. In Aireborough, there is a neighbourhood Forum group that have
:55:54. > :56:00.done excellent work and work with the community to decide what it is
:56:01. > :56:05.`` where people want to live? . People want to live. Too often we do
:56:06. > :56:10.not think about where people are going to work or go to school. The
:56:11. > :56:13.planning system needs reforming. The planning system `` the planning
:56:14. > :56:19.minister says it was up to your Government to uphold the Thatcherite
:56:20. > :56:23.ideal of suburban home ownership. I am not saying you will get them to
:56:24. > :56:28.live on a Brownfield site, I am saying you regenerate them so it is
:56:29. > :56:33.an attractive place to live. Nick and I have had many arguments in
:56:34. > :56:37.Parliament because this is an issue that I know is impacting on my
:56:38. > :56:41.constituency, and I am determined to stand up for those people who are
:56:42. > :56:46.doing some enormous workfare to try and defend what are actually very
:56:47. > :56:50.important open green spaces. The reality of this is that we have a
:56:51. > :56:56.plan that will make a difference, and the Tory Government have either
:56:57. > :56:59.got do what Nick said, leave it to the market, restrict the ability of
:57:00. > :57:03.local authorities to put planning restrictions are away, you support
:57:04. > :57:09.our plans. At the moment what I am hearing is not giving a solution in
:57:10. > :57:18.either direction. No, 74,000 houses... You never did it in the
:57:19. > :57:24.height of the property boom. In the macro the housing crisis has never
:57:25. > :57:28.been as bad. It has not just started. It is disingenuous of you
:57:29. > :57:32.to suggest that an wholly unrealistic. We have got to build
:57:33. > :57:36.more houses, but let us be realistic and not rape the countryside at the
:57:37. > :57:40.same time. Let's move on now and get more of
:57:41. > :57:42.the week's political news ` Len Tingle has our round`up in 60
:57:43. > :57:45.Seconds. Few can silence a normally rowdy
:57:46. > :57:48.Prime Minister's Question Time, but Dennis Skinner's passion did just
:57:49. > :57:51.that this week. He told MPs how medical assessors had said a
:57:52. > :57:54.cancer`stricken Bolsover man was fit for work, and cut his benefit. He
:57:55. > :57:57.died 11 months later, still waiting for his appeal to be heard. Abolish
:57:58. > :58:10.this cruel, heartless monster called Atos. Get rid of it.
:58:11. > :58:13.Hull man John Hurst says he'll continue his long campaign to get
:58:14. > :58:16.Government to give prisoners the right to vote ` that's despite the
:58:17. > :58:21.UK's Supreme Court throwing out an appeal by two other prisoners this
:58:22. > :58:26.week. Former Shadow Home Secretary David Davis has no doubt how MPs
:58:27. > :58:28.would vote. No votes for any prisoners. Other than for those
:58:29. > :58:31.already on remand. And outspoken MEP Godfrey Bloom
:58:32. > :58:34.launched his autobiography ` and revealed he's had a few interesting
:58:35. > :58:38.offers. I've been asked to do Strictly Come Dancing, I'm a
:58:39. > :58:46.Celebrity ` all sorts of things. Sadly, he's turning them all down.
:58:47. > :58:49.What a great shame. What would you rather see, Godfrey Bloom doing the
:58:50. > :58:54.tango or him eating bugs in the jungle? Good question. I think
:58:55. > :58:59.eating bugs in the jungle. I'm not going to comment. I hear he's very
:59:00. > :59:01.light on his feet. Dennis Skinner, your neighbouring MP, made that
:59:02. > :59:06.passionate comment in the Commons earlier in the week. But those cases
:59:07. > :59:12.involving ATOS, the assessment company, they're in a minority
:59:13. > :59:15.aren't they? Well, of course the majority don't drop dead a few
:59:16. > :59:19.seconds after Atos have found them fit to work, but exactly the same
:59:20. > :59:21.thing has happened on two occasions in my constituency, I've been
:59:22. > :59:26.speaking on your programme previously about that. The reality
:59:27. > :59:29.is far too often I see people in my surgeries who clearly are not fit to
:59:30. > :59:32.work, the system clearly isn't working, and it's really putting
:59:33. > :59:35.people, particularly some of those with serious mental health problems,
:59:36. > :59:42.through even more difficulties on top of the medical difficulties
:59:43. > :59:47.they're facing already. The system's broken, it needs reforming. And you
:59:48. > :59:51.must have had cases in your postbag about this, Stuart Andrew. I have
:59:52. > :59:55.indeed, and each time I've made sure that I've gone as high as I can to
:59:56. > :59:58.get that resolved. If it isn't a perfect system, it's much improved
:59:59. > :00:03.from what it was when it first started, but we have got to get it
:00:04. > :00:07.right. At the end of the day what we do need to do though is have a
:00:08. > :00:11.system in place that helps people back into work if they can work `
:00:12. > :00:16.but rightly, if they can't work then it is ludicrous to expect them to
:00:17. > :00:21.come back again. . OK. Are we going to see prisoners getting the vote?
:00:22. > :00:24.Not if it was up to me, I'm not a supporter of that. I think there's
:00:25. > :00:28.certain rights that you lose at the point that you go to prison and I
:00:29. > :00:31.think that should be one of them. I think there's numerous practical
:00:32. > :00:35.difficulties but I think there's also a moral difficulty, so for me
:00:36. > :00:38.I'm a no. And it's going to cost the Government millions if it doesn't
:00:39. > :00:42.comply with a European Court ruling, isn't it? Well, potentially. But I
:00:43. > :00:45.think what has been excellent this week is the Attorney`General has
:00:46. > :00:49.done a superb job at the Supreme Court. He got all the judges to back
:00:50. > :00:52.the case that he put forward. And Toby's exactly right ` if you've
:00:53. > :00:56.committed a crime that means you have to go to prison, then why
:00:57. > :01:00.should you then have a say in who runs that society that you did so
:01:01. > :01:03.much damage to? It's just not on, it's not fair. Right. Eagle`eyed
:01:04. > :01:06.viewers at the beginning of the programme might have seen your
:01:07. > :01:10.introduction caption, Stuart, let's look at this again if we can. Is
:01:11. > :01:12.that really where you were born? Can you give us a pronunciation? I can
:01:13. > :01:13.indeed, it's Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndro`
:01:14. > :01:17.bwllllantysiliogogogoch. Fancy having a go at that, Toby? Well, I
:01:18. > :01:21.didn't even know he was Polish. I'm sure there'll be a welcome in
:01:22. > :01:24.the hillside for both of you. Thank you both for joining us on the
:01:25. > :01:27.Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. So many thanks, Toby
:01:28. > :01:29.Perkins and Stuart Andrew, and with that we'll go back to Andrew Neil in
:01:30. > :01:33.London. that we'll go back to Andrew Neil in
:01:34. > :01:34.which links in with this. Thank you to both of you for being my guests
:01:35. > :01:49.today. Are the Lib Dems like a wonky
:01:50. > :01:55.shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg kicking off over free schools? And
:01:56. > :02:01.what about Boris and George's love bombing of China? All questions for
:02:02. > :02:05.The Week Ahead. We are joined now by the former Home Office minister and
:02:06. > :02:14.Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne. Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this
:02:15. > :02:18.key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in the ascendancy in your party, those
:02:19. > :02:23.who would fear to the left, or those who would fear to the centre? The
:02:24. > :02:29.point I was making in the interview that I gave to the times was that I
:02:30. > :02:40.want us to be unambiguously and on up genetically -- and
:02:41. > :02:44.unapologetically a Liberal party. I do not want us to be craving the
:02:45. > :02:48.approval of columnists like Polly Toynbee. I do not want us to be a
:02:49. > :02:53.pale imitation of the Labour Party. I think we should be proud and
:02:54. > :02:58.unambiguously a authentic Liberal party. That is my ambition for the
:02:59. > :03:02.party. If it is, as you put it, fearing to the left, then I think
:03:03. > :03:08.that is a mistake, I think we should be on the liberal centre ground But
:03:09. > :03:12.is it actually veering to the left, your party? I think there is a
:03:13. > :03:18.danger when a party, or any organisation, feels that it is in a
:03:19. > :03:26.difficult position, to look inwards, to look for reassuring
:03:27. > :03:30.familiar policy positions. I do not want us to be the party which looks
:03:31. > :03:34.inwards and speaks to the 9% of people who are minded to support us
:03:35. > :03:38.already. I want us to look outwards and speak to the 91% of the
:03:39. > :03:41.population, for whom I think we have got a good story to tell about the
:03:42. > :03:46.contribution we have made to getting the deficit down, cutting crime
:03:47. > :03:51.keeping interest rates low, and also, distinctive Liberal Democrat
:03:52. > :03:55.policies for example on income tax and pupil premiums. If we look like
:03:56. > :03:59.we are a party which is uneasy and ambivalent about our role in
:04:00. > :04:02.government, people will not give us credit for the successes of the
:04:03. > :04:05.government, and we will not be able to claim the authorship which we
:04:06. > :04:09.should be able to claim for our policies excesses in government I
:04:10. > :04:16.want us to be confident, outward looking, and authentically liberal.
:04:17. > :04:20.If we are that, people real sense that and they will respond
:04:21. > :04:24.positively. Does that not therefore make it rather strange that Nick
:04:25. > :04:30.Craig should choose to distance himself from the coalition's schools
:04:31. > :04:40.policy? Well, I support free schools, I think they are a liberal
:04:41. > :04:44.policy. Education is a fascinating area, so let's explore it a bit We
:04:45. > :04:48.have had two very significant and troubling reports in the last
:04:49. > :04:51.fortnight, one from Alan Milburn, saying that social mobility has
:04:52. > :04:55.stalled in this country, in other words, what your parents do is a
:04:56. > :05:00.reliable guide to how you will get on in life and the other saying that
:05:01. > :05:03.Britain lags behind our competitors, the other
:05:04. > :05:07.industrialised countries, in terms of the educational attainment of
:05:08. > :05:11.15-year-olds. Both of those are worrying. We have a scandalous
:05:12. > :05:14.situation in this country where two thirds of children from
:05:15. > :05:24.disadvantaged backgrounds are failing to get five Grade A to Grade
:05:25. > :05:27.C. Some get none at all. If we were the world leaders in education, we
:05:28. > :05:30.could have an interesting conversation about how we are able
:05:31. > :05:34.to maintain that position, but we are not. Whether there are good
:05:35. > :05:38.things one less good things which have happened in our schools over
:05:39. > :05:43.the last 30-40 years, we really need to raise our game and stop letting
:05:44. > :05:45.young people down who need a good quality education in order to
:05:46. > :05:52.realise their full potential in life. It sounds like you do not
:05:53. > :05:57.share Mr Clegg's designations? I think there are two big dangers for
:05:58. > :06:02.us as a party. I do not think we should be instinctively statist and
:06:03. > :06:06.I do not think either we should be instinctively in favour of the
:06:07. > :06:11.status quo. I want us to have a restless, radical, energetic,
:06:12. > :06:14.liberal reforming instinct, which is about putting more power and
:06:15. > :06:19.responsible at the end opportunity in the hands of individual people.
:06:20. > :06:22.As I say, we look at the education system, of course there are good
:06:23. > :06:26.teachers and good outcomes in some schools and for some pupils,
:06:27. > :06:30.overall, our performance in this country is not good enough, so the
:06:31. > :06:43.status quo has not been a successful stop I am interested in how we can
:06:44. > :06:49.innovate. -- has not been a success. Are the Tories wooing you? Well I
:06:50. > :06:56.do not know if that is the right word, I have been reported, and I
:06:57. > :07:00.have set myself, that the Conservatives have, if you like
:07:01. > :07:05.made some advances or generous suggestions to me, but I am a
:07:06. > :07:08.liberal, and I am a Liberal Democrat. I have been a member of
:07:09. > :07:12.the Lib Dems since the party was founded, I joined when I was 18
:07:13. > :07:17.years old. I have campaigned tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats
:07:18. > :07:20.for my entire adult life, so I am not about to go and join another
:07:21. > :07:28.political party. I would turn this on its head, let me put it like
:07:29. > :07:30.this, I think there are quite a few liberals in the other political
:07:31. > :07:35.parties, people like Alan Milburn, who wrote a report on social
:07:36. > :07:39.mobility, people like Nick Bowles in the Conservative Party. Our
:07:40. > :07:42.ambition, as Liberal Democrats, should be to attract liberals from
:07:43. > :07:54.other political parties, and no political party, to the Lib Dems.
:07:55. > :07:57.Just briefly, have you suggested that the Tories do not run a
:07:58. > :08:03.candidate against you in the next election? I have not suggested
:08:04. > :08:05.anything of the sort. The Conservatives have to make their own
:08:06. > :08:11.decisions about which candidates they select, and I will take on
:08:12. > :08:24.whoever is select it from each of the political parties. Thank you for
:08:25. > :08:28.joining us. There is a danger not from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr
:08:29. > :08:32.Clegg, in that, having been part of a coalition which has gone through
:08:33. > :08:36.an enormous squeeze in living standards for three years, it did
:08:37. > :08:40.not look like both was coming, it was being regarded overall as a
:08:41. > :08:45.failure, but now, it may be turning the corner, so why would you then
:08:46. > :08:52.start to disassociate yourself from the coalition's policies? Yes, the
:08:53. > :08:55.danger for Nick Clegg is that he makes the Liberal Democrats looked
:08:56. > :08:59.like visitors in a guesthouse, a guesthouse which is owned by the
:09:00. > :09:02.Conservatives. As you say, they were there for the three difficult years,
:09:03. > :09:06.and just at the moment when the economy seems to be coming right,
:09:07. > :09:11.and we are getting some nice growth, they seek to distance themselves. It
:09:12. > :09:15.is interesting that Jeremy Browne came out with the outrageously
:09:16. > :09:18.disloyal statement that he supported free schools statement. That is a
:09:19. > :09:23.disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but on Thursday, of course, the Liberal
:09:24. > :09:26.Democrat party was in favour of free schools, because in that statement
:09:27. > :09:30.about the Al-Madinah school, David Laws made a passionate defence about
:09:31. > :09:37.what Nick Clegg is now criticising, which is having on qualified
:09:38. > :09:42.teachers. If things are now coming right, the big risk for the Liberal
:09:43. > :09:47.Democrats always was that they would not get the credit anyway. Well if
:09:48. > :09:53.they diss associate themselves like this, they definitely will not get
:09:54. > :09:57.the credit. It depends which voters their opinion poll ratings are dire,
:09:58. > :10:01.he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it is less than that. So, where are
:10:02. > :10:07.they going to get those voters from? They have not got those
:10:08. > :10:11.anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not Mission impossible, getting Labour
:10:12. > :10:17.voters test surely the left of the Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards
:10:18. > :10:25.labour, not away from Labour? I wonder to what extent, and this
:10:26. > :10:29.might be speculation, this might be organised and arranged, that Cameron
:10:30. > :10:33.and Clegg both understand that they have groups of voters that they need
:10:34. > :10:38.to get, so they need to send messages out to different groups, it
:10:39. > :10:49.looks like a bit of a setup to me. Boris in China, along with boy
:10:50. > :10:54.George - let's have a look... Who, according to JK Rowling, was Harry
:10:55. > :11:00.Potter's first girlfriend? That s right, and she is Chinese overseas
:11:01. > :11:07.student, is that not right at Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure
:11:08. > :11:11.it is right, she is actually from Scotland. It is not only London
:11:12. > :11:17.which has a diverse society. Putting that to one side, we are inviting
:11:18. > :11:22.the Chinese into finance our power stations, to run big banks in the
:11:23. > :11:26.cities, we are giving out more visas to them, are we right to embrace the
:11:27. > :11:31.Dragon? What worries me about the power stations then, it is 30% of
:11:32. > :11:36.investment, and it reminds me a lot of PFI, the idea that you do not
:11:37. > :11:39.want a huge investment on your balance sheet, but if somebody bails
:11:40. > :11:47.out halfway through, we cannot stop with a half finished power station.
:11:48. > :11:54.It is EDF, the French company, which will actually build it, and we will
:11:55. > :11:58.be guaranteeing the debt for them. It is extraordinary that there has
:11:59. > :12:03.been so little adverse comment after George Osborne and Boris's trip to
:12:04. > :12:12.China, and is it now really the UK Government policy, to sell Britain
:12:13. > :12:16.to the Chinese? There was a debate in government about this, as they
:12:17. > :12:20.were getting ready for the trip and there will be at some point in the
:12:21. > :12:23.next six months be a David Cameron trip to China. He has had to wait
:12:24. > :12:27.three years because they were annoyed about him meeting the Dalai
:12:28. > :12:31.llama. There were some people in the Foreign Office who were saying,
:12:32. > :12:37.fine, but tread carefully. George Osborne's view is absolutely not,
:12:38. > :12:45.get in there, I do not care about any of these problems, get stuck
:12:46. > :12:49.in. I think he is storing up five years since the financial crisis,
:12:50. > :12:53.Chinese banks are being given a special, light touch regulatory
:12:54. > :13:02.regime. What could possibly go wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy
:13:03. > :13:10.prices have continued to dominate this week. We have got the EDF deal,
:13:11. > :13:13.whereby we are going to be giving them twice the market rate for their
:13:14. > :13:22.energy. But for the coalition, all eyes are on the GDP figures. The
:13:23. > :13:24.expectation and hope is that the recovery will be stronger than the
:13:25. > :13:31.figures have suggested so far, on which basis it can influence the
:13:32. > :13:36.result of the next general election. The chief economist at the
:13:37. > :13:39.Bank of England was saying on Twitter last week that the Bank of
:13:40. > :13:43.England may now bring forward the assessment when it says, maybe we
:13:44. > :13:48.are going to have to change monetary policy, if unemployment goes below
:13:49. > :13:57.7%. And we know what that means interest rates. The Bank of England
:13:58. > :14:01.on Twitter! That is it for today. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow
:14:02. > :14:04.on BBC Two. I will be back with prime Minster 's questions on
:14:05. > :14:06.Wednesday, and of course, we will be back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next
:14:07. > :14:13.Sunday.