:00:37. > :00:43.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on
:00:44. > :00:48.the war path over pay day loans, your energy bill and what he calls
:00:49. > :00:52.the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls
:00:53. > :00:56.don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's
:00:57. > :01:00.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage
:01:01. > :01:09.won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be
:01:10. > :01:12.talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page
:01:13. > :01:23.three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with
:01:24. > :01:26.some balls. Stay. It is good fun for the
:01:27. > :01:36.In our region: Stay with us in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Far from
:01:37. > :01:38.being a burden, we look at the claims that European migrants have
:01:39. > :01:47.actually boosted our economy. row over the super sewer rumbles on.
:01:48. > :01:51.And with me, fresh from their success at yesterday's Star Wars
:01:52. > :01:56.auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on
:01:57. > :02:01.your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:02:02. > :02:04.First, the talks with Iran in Geneva. They ended last night
:02:05. > :02:14.without agreement despite hopes of a breakthrough. America and its allies
:02:15. > :02:17.didn't think Iran was prepared to go far enough to freeze its nuclear
:02:18. > :02:21.programme. But some progress has been made and there's to be another
:02:22. > :02:23.meeting in ten days' time, though at a lower level. The Foreign
:02:24. > :02:27.Secretary, William Hague, had this to say a little earlier. On the
:02:28. > :02:36.question of, or will it happen in the next few weeks? There is a good
:02:37. > :02:41.chance of that. We will be trying again on 20th, 21st of November and
:02:42. > :02:47.negotiators will be trying again. We will keep an enormous amount of
:02:48. > :02:55.energy and persistence behind solving this. Will that be a deal
:02:56. > :03:00.which will please everyone? No, it will not. Compromises will need to
:03:01. > :03:05.be made. I had discussions with Israeli ministers yesterday and put
:03:06. > :03:10.the case for the kind of deal we are looking
:03:11. > :03:10.the case for the kind of deal we are interests of the whole world,
:03:11. > :03:16.including interests of the whole world,
:03:17. > :03:21.the world, to reach a diplomatic agreement we can be confident in in
:03:22. > :03:24.this issue. This otherwise will threaten the world with nuclear
:03:25. > :03:28.proliferation and conflict in the future. The interesting thing about
:03:29. > :03:36.this is that it seems future. The interesting thing about
:03:37. > :03:41.prepared to go far enough over the Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor
:03:42. > :03:54.it is building. The people who took the toughest line - the French.
:03:55. > :04:00.France has always had a pretty tough line on Iran. They see it as a
:04:01. > :04:05.disruptive influence in Lebanon I am reasonably optimistic a deal will
:04:06. > :04:09.be done later this month when the talks reconvene. Western economic
:04:10. > :04:17.sanctions have had such an impact on Iran domestic league. They have
:04:18. > :04:22.pushed inflation up to 40%. Dashes-macro domestically. The new
:04:23. > :04:30.president had a campaign pledge saying, I will deal with sanctions.
:04:31. > :04:37.I actually think, by the end of this year, we will see progress in these
:04:38. > :04:45.talks. Should we be optimistic? The next round of talks will be at
:04:46. > :04:50.official level. The place to watch will be Israel. The language which
:04:51. > :04:55.has been coming out of there is still incredibly angry, incredibly
:04:56. > :05:05.defensive. They do not want a deal at all. Presumably John Kerry has to
:05:06. > :05:14.go away and tried to get Israel to be quiet about it, even if they
:05:15. > :05:23.cannot be happy about it. They cannot agree to a deal which allows
:05:24. > :05:28.the Iraq reactor with plutonium heavy water. You do not need that
:05:29. > :05:35.with a peaceful nuclear power programme will stop that is why the
:05:36. > :05:43.Israelis are so nervous. If there is an international deal, Israel could
:05:44. > :05:50.still bomb that but it would be impossible. The French tactics are
:05:51. > :05:54.interesting. It says the French blocked it in part because they are
:05:55. > :06:00.trying to carry favour with Israel but also the Gulf Arab states, who
:06:01. > :06:06.are really nervous about and Iranians nuclear capability. Who is
:06:07. > :06:12.that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a story saying that Pakistan is
:06:13. > :06:20.prepared to provide them with nuclear weapons. You are right about
:06:21. > :06:26.Saudi Arabia. They are much more against this deal than Israel. Who
:06:27. > :06:30.is Herman van Rompuy's favourite MEP? It is probably not Nigel
:06:31. > :06:33.Farage. He plummeted to the bottom of the EU president's Christmas card
:06:34. > :06:37.list after comparing him to a bank clerk with the charisma of a damp
:06:38. > :06:46.rag. And he's been at it again this week. Have a look. Today is November
:06:47. > :06:51.the 5th, a big celebration festival day in England. That was an attempt
:06:52. > :06:54.to blow up the Houses of Parliament with dynamite and destroy the
:06:55. > :07:01.Constitution. You have taken the Dahl, technocratic approach to all
:07:02. > :07:05.of these things. What you and your colleagues save time and again you
:07:06. > :07:10.talk about initiatives and what you are going to do about unemployment.
:07:11. > :07:17.The reality is nothing in this union is getting better. The accounts have
:07:18. > :07:22.not been signed off for 18 years. I am now told it is 19 and you are
:07:23. > :07:26.doing your best to tone down any criticism. Whatever growth figures
:07:27. > :07:31.you may have, they are anaemic. Youth unemployment in the
:07:32. > :07:36.Mediterranean is over 50% in several states. You will notice there is a
:07:37. > :07:41.rise in opposition dashed real opposition. Much of it ugly
:07:42. > :07:48.opposition, not stuff that I would want to link hands with. And Nigel
:07:49. > :07:57.Farage joins me now. Let me put to you what the editor of the Sun had
:07:58. > :08:01.to say. He says, UKIP will peak at the European election and then it
:08:02. > :08:06.will begin to get marginalised as we get closer to 2015 because there is
:08:07. > :08:13.now that clear blue water between Labour and the Tories. What do you
:08:14. > :08:17.say to that? There may be layered blue water on energy pricing but on
:08:18. > :08:22.Eastern Europe, there is no difference at all. When Ed Miliband
:08:23. > :08:26.offers the referendum to match Cameron, even that argument on
:08:27. > :08:32.Europe will be gone. The one thing that will keep UKIP strong, heading
:08:33. > :08:36.towards 2015, is if people think in some constituencies we can win. I
:08:37. > :08:41.cannot sit here right now and say that will be the case. If we get
:08:42. > :08:46.over the hurdle of the European elections clearly, I think there
:08:47. > :08:53.will be grounds to say that UKIP can win seats in Westminster. You are
:08:54. > :08:59.going to run? Without a shadow of a doubt. I do not know which
:09:00. > :09:03.constituency. The welcome I got in Edinburgh was not that friendly
:09:04. > :09:08.Edinburgh is not everything in Scotland. I think we have a
:09:09. > :09:14.realistic chance of winning those elections. If we do that, we will
:09:15. > :09:19.have the momentum behind us. You might be the biggest party after the
:09:20. > :09:24.May elections. The National front is likely to do very well in France as
:09:25. > :09:30.well. They have won the crucial by-election in the South of France.
:09:31. > :09:39.Have you talked about joining full season in Parliament? The leader has
:09:40. > :09:44.tried to take the movement into a different direction than her father.
:09:45. > :09:49.The man she beat, to become leader, actually attended the BNP
:09:50. > :09:54.conference. The problem she has with her party and we have with her party
:09:55. > :09:59.is that anti-Semitism is too deep and we will not be doing a deal with
:10:00. > :10:06.the French national government. You can guarantee you will not be
:10:07. > :10:12.joining such groups. I can guarantee that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's
:10:13. > :10:17.accept that the pro-Europeans exaggerate the loss of jobs that
:10:18. > :10:25.would follow the departure of Britain from the UK. Is there no
:10:26. > :10:33.risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk whatsoever. There is no risk at all.
:10:34. > :10:40.There have been some weak and lazy arguments put around about this We
:10:41. > :10:46.will go on doing business - go on doing trade with Europe. We will
:10:47. > :10:51.have increased opportunities to do trade deals with the rest of the
:10:52. > :11:00.world and they will create jobs The head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi
:11:01. > :11:07.and CBI many other voices in British business, when they all expressed
:11:08. > :11:12.concern about the potential loss of jobs and incoming investment, we
:11:13. > :11:22.should just ignore them. With Nissan, the BBC News is making this
:11:23. > :11:28.a huge story. The boss did not say what was reported. He said there was
:11:29. > :11:34.a potential danger to his future investment. They have already made
:11:35. > :11:38.the investments. They have built the plant in Sunderland, which they say
:11:39. > :11:42.is operating well. We should be careful of what bosses of big
:11:43. > :11:47.businesses say. This man said they may have two leaves Sunderland if we
:11:48. > :11:51.did not join the euro. I do not take that seriously. As for the CBI, they
:11:52. > :11:57.wanted us to join the euro and now they do not. Even within the CBI,
:11:58. > :12:02.there is a significant minority saying, we do not agree with what
:12:03. > :12:06.the CBI director-general is saying. The former boss of the organisation
:12:07. > :12:13.is saying we need a referendum and we need a referendum soon. It
:12:14. > :12:18.depends on the renegotiation. There is not the uniformity. What we are
:12:19. > :12:23.beginning to see in the world, is, manufacturing and small businesses
:12:24. > :12:27.are a lot more voices saying, the costs of membership outweigh any
:12:28. > :12:37.potential benefit. If you look at the polls, if Mr Cameron does
:12:38. > :12:43.repatriate some powers and he joins with Labour, the Lib Dems, the
:12:44. > :12:47.Nationalists in Scotland and Wales, most of business, all of the unions
:12:48. > :12:57.to say we should stay in, you are going to lose, aren't you? In 1 75,
:12:58. > :13:00.the circumstances were exactly the same. Mr Wilson promised a
:13:01. > :13:04.renegotiation and he got very little. The establishment gathered
:13:05. > :13:10.around him and they voted for us to stay in. I do not think that will
:13:11. > :13:17.happen now. The scales have fallen. We do not want to be governed by
:13:18. > :13:20.Herman Van Rompuy and these people. These people are Eurosceptic but
:13:21. > :13:24.they do not seem to feel strongly enough about it that they are going
:13:25. > :13:31.to defy all the major parties they vote for, companies that employ
:13:32. > :13:34.them, unions they are members of. I am absolutely confident there will
:13:35. > :13:39.be a lot voices in business saying, we need to take this opportunity to
:13:40. > :13:52.break free, give ourselves a chance of a low regulation lowball trader.
:13:53. > :14:08.-- global trade. In 1970 53 small publications said to vote yes. I am
:14:09. > :14:13.not contemplating losing. The most important thing is to get the
:14:14. > :14:19.referendum. If UKIP is not strong, there will not be a referendum.
:14:20. > :14:23.Earlier in the year, your party issued a leaflet about the remaining
:14:24. > :14:29.sample parents being able to come to this country. The EU will allow 29
:14:30. > :14:39.million Bulgarians and remaining is to come to the UK. That is
:14:40. > :14:51.technically correct but we both know that is not the case. It is an open
:14:52. > :15:02.door to these people. Why take the risk? By make out there are 29
:15:03. > :15:12.million people? I stand by that verdict. It is an open door. 29
:15:13. > :15:18.million are not going to come. They can if they want. Also 29 million
:15:19. > :15:22.people from France can come. After these countries have joined, we will
:15:23. > :15:29.do another leaflet saying that Mr Cameron wants to open the door to 70
:15:30. > :15:37.million people from Turkey. That is scaremongering. I would not say
:15:38. > :15:42.that. We have a million young British workers between 16 and 4
:15:43. > :15:46.without work. A lot of them want work and we do not need another
:15:47. > :15:51.massive oversupply in the unskilled labour market. Why did you have such
:15:52. > :16:01.a bad time on question Time this week? The folk that did not buy your
:16:02. > :16:04.anti-immigration stick. Do you think that group of people in the room was
:16:05. > :16:09.representative of the voters of Boston? What would make you think it
:16:10. > :16:13.was unrepresentative? When the county council elections took place
:16:14. > :16:17.this year in Boston, of the seven seats, UKIP won five and almost won
:16:18. > :16:21.the other two. I don't think that audience reflected that, but that
:16:22. > :16:25.doesn't matter. How an audience is put together, how a panel is put
:16:26. > :16:30.together, on one programme, it doesn't mean much at all. It shows
:16:31. > :16:34.that your anti-immigrant measure doesn't fly as easily as you hoped
:16:35. > :16:37.it would? The opinion polls which will be launched on Monday that we
:16:38. > :16:41.are conducting and nearing completion, they show two things.
:16:42. > :16:46.Firstly, an astonishing number of people who think it's irresponsible
:16:47. > :16:51.and wrong to open the doer to Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and
:16:52. > :16:53.crucially, a number of people whose vote in the European elections and
:16:54. > :16:57.subsequent general elections may be determined by the immigration
:16:58. > :17:00.issues. This does matter. It would be the perfect run group the
:17:01. > :17:05.European elections in May for you if a lot of Bulgarians and remainians
:17:06. > :17:08.flooded in. You would like that to happen? I think it will happen.
:17:09. > :17:13.Whether I like it or not, it will happen. You think it will be good
:17:14. > :17:17.for you, it will stir things up If you say to people in poor countries,
:17:18. > :17:22.you can come here, get a job, have a safety net of a benefits system
:17:23. > :17:26.claim child allowance for your kids in Bucharest, people will come You
:17:27. > :17:32.are ready with the arguments already? You will be disappointed if
:17:33. > :17:35.only ten turn up? Whether lots come or not we should. Taking the risk
:17:36. > :17:38.and yes, we are going to make it a major issue in the European
:17:39. > :17:42.election. Let's leave it there. Thank you very much, Nigel Farage.
:17:43. > :17:46.The summer of 2013 was not good for Ed Miliband, with questions over his
:17:47. > :17:49.leadership, low ratings and complaints about no policies. He
:17:50. > :17:52.bounced back with a vengeance at the Labour Conference in September,
:17:53. > :17:57.delivering a speech which this week won the spectator political speech
:17:58. > :18:00.of the year aword. In that speech he focussed on the cost-of-living and
:18:01. > :18:05.promised a temporary freeze on energy prices. Even said this. The
:18:06. > :18:12.next election isn't just going to be about policy. It's going to be about
:18:13. > :18:19.how we lead and the character we show. I've got a message for the
:18:20. > :18:28.Tories today. If they want to have a debate, about leadership and
:18:29. > :18:32.character, be my guest And if you want to know the difference between
:18:33. > :18:37.me and David Cameron, here is an easy way to remember it. When it was
:18:38. > :18:41.Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the side of Murdoch. When it was the
:18:42. > :18:46.tobacco lobby versus the cancer charities, he took the side of the
:18:47. > :18:51.tobacco lobby. When the millionaires wanted a tax cut as people pay the
:18:52. > :18:54.bedroom tax, he took the side of the millionaires. A come to think of it,
:18:55. > :18:57.here is an easier way to remember it. David Cameron was a Prime
:18:58. > :19:07.Minister who introduced the bedroom tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who
:19:08. > :19:13.repeals the bedroom tax There we go, that will go down with the party
:19:14. > :19:18.faithful on Tuesday. There will be a debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's
:19:19. > :19:26.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, joints me now. Let's begin with the
:19:27. > :19:32.bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy. Nearly 11% of people who've come off
:19:33. > :19:35.Housing Benefits all together after their spare room subsidy was
:19:36. > :19:40.stopped, isn't that proof that reform was necessary? No. I think
:19:41. > :19:44.that the whole way that the bet room tax has been attempted to be
:19:45. > :19:48.justified is completely wrong. What it's said is that it will actually
:19:49. > :19:53.help take people off the waiting lists by putting them into homes
:19:54. > :19:57.that have been vacated by people who've downsized by being
:19:58. > :20:01.incentivised by the bedroom tax so basically if you are a council
:20:02. > :20:05.tenant or Housing Association tenant in a property with spare bedrooms,
:20:06. > :20:09.then because the penalty is imposed, you will move to a smaller property.
:20:10. > :20:13.That is the justification for it. But actually, something like 96 of
:20:14. > :20:16.the people who're going to be hit by the bedroom tax, there isn't a
:20:17. > :20:20.smaller property for them to move into. I understand that. Therefore
:20:21. > :20:24.they are, like the people in my constituency, if they have got one
:20:25. > :20:30.spare bedroom, they are hit by 700 a year extra to pay and that is
:20:31. > :20:35.completely unfair As a consequence of people losing the subsidy for
:20:36. > :20:39.their spare room, they have decided to go out and get work and not
:20:40. > :20:43.depend on Housing Benefit at all? 11% of them. What's wrong with that?
:20:44. > :20:49.Well, they are going to review the way 2 the bedroom tax is working.
:20:50. > :20:54.What is wrong with that? But that's not working. That's the result of
:20:55. > :20:58.Freedom of Information, 141 councils provided the figures, 25,000 who've
:20:59. > :21:02.come off benefits, of the 233,0 0 affected, it's about 11%. These
:21:03. > :21:06.people were clearly able to get a job was having the Housing Benefit
:21:07. > :21:11.in the first place? But of course the people who're on the benefits
:21:12. > :21:14.who're not in work are always looking for work and many of them
:21:15. > :21:19.will find work which is a good thing, but for those who don't find
:21:20. > :21:23.work, or who find work where it s low-paid and need help with their
:21:24. > :21:27.rent, it's wrong to penalise them on the basis of the fact that their
:21:28. > :21:31.family might have grown up and moved away and so you have either got to
:21:32. > :21:35.move out of your home, away from your family and your neighbourhood,
:21:36. > :21:39.or you've got to stay where you are and, despite the fact that you are
:21:40. > :21:44.low-paid or unemployed, you have got to find an extra ?700 a year because
:21:45. > :21:47.of your rent. So it's very unfair The Government that was
:21:48. > :21:51.commissioning independent research on the impact of this work change
:21:52. > :21:54.and welfare policy, particularly on the impact on the most vulnerable,
:21:55. > :21:58.some of which you have been talking about there, shouldn't they have
:21:59. > :22:01.waited until you have got the independent research, that
:22:02. > :22:04.independent investigation before determining your policy? No. In
:22:05. > :22:09.fact, the Government should have waited until they'd have done their
:22:10. > :22:12.independent research before they bought into effect something and
:22:13. > :22:18.imposed it on people in a way which is really unfair. They could have
:22:19. > :22:22.known. Why didn't you wait? What they could have done is, they could
:22:23. > :22:26.have asked councils, are people going to be able to Manifest into
:22:27. > :22:30.smaller homes if we impose the bedroom tax and the answer from
:22:31. > :22:33.councils and Housing Associations would have been no, they can't move
:22:34. > :22:37.into smaller homes because which haven't got them there. They should
:22:38. > :22:40.have done the evaluation before they introduced the policy. We are
:22:41. > :22:44.absolutely clear and you can see the evidence, people are falling into
:22:45. > :22:48.rent arrears. Many people, it's a terrifying thing to find that you
:22:49. > :22:53.can't pay your rent, and some of the people go to payday loan companies
:22:54. > :22:57.to get loans to pay their rent. It is very, very unfair. The
:22:58. > :23:01.justification for it, which is people will move, is completely
:23:02. > :23:07.bogus. There aren't places for them to go. On the wider issue of welfare
:23:08. > :23:10.reform, a call for the TUC showed that voters support the Government's
:23:11. > :23:15.welfare reforms, including a majority of Labour voters. Why are
:23:16. > :23:18.you so out of touch on welfare issues, even with your own
:23:19. > :23:22.supporters? Nobody wants to see people who could be in a job
:23:23. > :23:26.actually living at the taxpayers' expense. That's why we have said
:23:27. > :23:30.that we'll introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, so that if you are a
:23:31. > :23:34.young person who's been unemployed for a year, you will have to take a
:23:35. > :23:38.job absolutely have to take a job, and if you have been unemployed as
:23:39. > :23:43.somebody over 25, there'll be a compulsory thing after two years of
:23:44. > :23:47.unemployment. So if you have been on welfare two years? So the main issue
:23:48. > :23:51.about the welfare bill actually is people who're in retirement who need
:23:52. > :23:54.support. We have said for the richest pensioners, they shouldn't
:23:55. > :24:00.have to pay their winter fuel allowance. My point wasn't abouts
:24:01. > :24:04.the sub stance, it's about how you don't reflect public opinion --
:24:05. > :24:09.substance. The Parliamentary aid said the political backlog of
:24:10. > :24:14.benefits and social security is "not yet one that we have won. Labour
:24:15. > :24:19.must accept that they are not convincing on these matters,". Well,
:24:20. > :24:23.redo have to convince people and explain the policies we have got and
:24:24. > :24:26.the view we take. So, for example, for pensioners, who're well off we
:24:27. > :24:29.are saying they don't need the Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me
:24:30. > :24:34.saying to you and us saying to people in this country, we do think
:24:35. > :24:38.that there should be that tightening. For young people, who've
:24:39. > :24:41.been unemployed, they should be offered jobs but they've got to take
:24:42. > :24:47.them. So yes, we have to make our case. OK. The energy freeze which we
:24:48. > :24:51.showed there, on the speech, as popular. The living wage proseles
:24:52. > :24:54.have been going down well as well. Why is Labour's lead oaf the
:24:55. > :24:59.Conservatives being cut to 6% in the latest polls? Ed Miliband's own
:25:00. > :25:03.personal approval rating's gotten worse. Why is that? I'm not going to
:25:04. > :25:08.disdues ins and outs of weekly opinion polls with you or anybody
:25:09. > :25:12.else because I'm not a political commentator, but let me say to you
:25:13. > :25:17.the facts of what's happened since Ed Miliband's been leader of the
:25:18. > :25:24.Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New Labour councillors, all of those...
:25:25. > :25:25.But you're... All those who've won their seats against the
:25:26. > :25:30.Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats and no, Andrew you don't
:25:31. > :25:35.always get that in opposition. In 1997 after Tony Blair was elected,
:25:36. > :25:41.the Tories carried on losing council seats. Exceptional circumstances and
:25:42. > :25:47.these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in the polls. You were six. The economy
:25:48. > :25:51.grew at an annual rate of 3% in the third quarter just gone. Everybody,
:25:52. > :25:54.private and public forecasters now saying that Britain in this coming
:25:55. > :25:59.year will grow faster than France, Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow
:26:00. > :26:02.faster. Your poll ratings are average when the economy was
:26:03. > :26:06.flatlining, what happens to them when the economy starts to grow?
:26:07. > :26:11.Well, I've just said to you, I'm not a political commentator or a pundit
:26:12. > :26:14.on opinion polls. We are putting policies forward and we are holding
:26:15. > :26:19.the Government to account for what they are doing and we think that
:26:20. > :26:22.what they did opt economy pulled the plugs from the economy, delayed the
:26:23. > :26:26.recovery, made it stagnate and we have had three years lost growth. I
:26:27. > :26:33.understand that, but it's now starting to grow. Indeed. If you are
:26:34. > :26:36.no political commentator, let me ask you this, you anticipated the
:26:37. > :26:40.growth, so you switched your line to no growth to this is growth and
:26:41. > :26:44.living standards are rising. If the economy does grow up towards 3% next
:26:45. > :26:47.year, I would suggest that living standards probably will start to
:26:48. > :26:51.rise with that amount of growth. What do you do then? We have not
:26:52. > :26:54.switched our line because the economy started to grow. All the way
:26:55. > :26:59.along, we said the economy will recover, but it's been delayed and
:27:00. > :27:03.we have had stagnation for far too long because of the economic
:27:04. > :27:07.policies. We have been absolutely right to understand the concerns
:27:08. > :27:11.people have and recognise that they are struggling with the
:27:12. > :27:15.cost-of-living. Sure. And we are right to do that. What kind of
:27:16. > :27:21.living standards stuck to rise next year? -- start to rise next year. I
:27:22. > :27:25.hope they will. For 40 months of David Cameron's Prime Ministership,
:27:26. > :27:28.for 39 of those, wages have risen slower than prices, so people are
:27:29. > :27:33.worse off. I understand that. You will know that the broader
:27:34. > :27:36.measurement, real household disposable income doesn't show that
:27:37. > :27:41.decline because it takes everything into account. Going around the
:27:42. > :27:47.country, people feel it. They say where's the recovery for me. Living
:27:48. > :27:51.standards now start to rise? If that happens, what is your next line?
:27:52. > :27:54.There is a set of arguments about living standards, the National
:27:55. > :28:00.Health Service, about the problems that there is in A, which caused
:28:01. > :28:05.-- are caused by the organisation. I can put forward other lines. All
:28:06. > :28:11.right. Let me ask you one other question If no newspapers have
:28:12. > :28:14.signed up to the Government-backed Labour-backed Royal Charter on press
:28:15. > :28:20.regular lace by 2015 and it looks like the way things are going none
:28:21. > :28:23.will have, if you are in power, will a Labour Government legislate to
:28:24. > :28:28.make them? They don't have to sign up to the Royal Charter, that's not
:28:29. > :28:31.the system. What the Royal Charter does is create a recogniser and
:28:32. > :28:34.basically says it's for the newspapers to set up their own
:28:35. > :28:39.regulator. They are doing that. My question is... Let me finish. If
:28:40. > :28:43.they decide to have nothing to do with the Royal Charter that was
:28:44. > :28:47.decided in Miliband's office in the wee small hours, will you pass
:28:48. > :28:50.legislation to make them? The newspapers are currently setting up
:28:51. > :28:55.what they call... I know that, Harriet Harman. Just let me finish.
:28:56. > :28:59.OK. Because the newspapers are setting up the independent Press
:29:00. > :29:03.Standards Organisation. Right. If it is independent, as they say it is,
:29:04. > :29:07.then the recogniser will simply say, we recognise that this is
:29:08. > :29:11.independent and the whole point is that, in the past when there's been
:29:12. > :29:14.turned people's lives upside down turned people's lives upside down
:29:15. > :29:19.and the press have said OK we'll sort things out, leave it to us,
:29:20. > :29:23.then they have sorted things out but a few years later they have slipped
:29:24. > :29:27.back, all this recogniser will do is check it once every three years and
:29:28. > :29:31.say yes, you have got an independent system and it's remained independent
:29:32. > :29:35.and therefore that is the guarantee things won't slip back. Very
:29:36. > :29:39.interesting. Thank you for that. That's really interesting that if
:29:40. > :29:44.they get their act right, you won't force the alternative on them. We
:29:45. > :29:49.want the system as set forward by Leveson which is not statute and
:29:50. > :29:54.direct regulation. I want to stick with the press because I want to
:29:55. > :29:58.ask, is this a British institution or an out-of-date image for a by
:29:59. > :30:03.gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been dividing the nation since it first
:30:04. > :30:08.appeared way back in 1970. That's 43 years ago. Harriet Harman's called
:30:09. > :30:22.for it to be removed, so we sent Adam out to ask whether the topless
:30:23. > :30:37.photographs should stay or go. We have asked people if page three
:30:38. > :30:47.should stay or go. Page three. What do you think? Nothing wrong with it
:30:48. > :30:58.at all. I think it is cheap and exploits women. It is a family
:30:59. > :31:09.newspaper. Should it stay or go? Go. I will look like the bad guy. It
:31:10. > :31:18.should go. You have changed your mind. It is free choice. Girls do
:31:19. > :31:32.not have to be photographed. Old men get the paper just for that. Know
:31:33. > :31:36.when your age does that? Not really. Dashes-macro know what your age.
:31:37. > :31:47.Page three girls, should they stay or go? I am not bothered. There are
:31:48. > :31:51.other ways of getting noticed. Page three of the Sun newspaper every
:31:52. > :32:00.day, there is a woman with no top on. We got rid of that about 40
:32:01. > :32:08.years ago in Australia. I am not in favour of censorship. It has been
:32:09. > :32:13.long enough. It can stay there. What is wrong with it? We want to
:32:14. > :32:19.encourage children to read the newspapers. I do not want my
:32:20. > :32:26.children to look at that. It is degrading. Do you think we will see
:32:27. > :32:31.the day when they get rid of it? Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can
:32:32. > :32:43.turn this into some kind of a shelter. It is tipping it down. I
:32:44. > :32:48.think the council should do shelter. It is tipping it down. I
:32:49. > :32:57.something about their car parks! Mother nature, the human body. It
:32:58. > :33:03.should stay. Is some people like it, that is fine. I have nothing against
:33:04. > :33:08.it. You know what has surprised me, lots of women saying it should stay.
:33:09. > :33:15.Maybe they are seeing it as empowering. As I have a baby
:33:16. > :33:26.daughter in there, I am happy to see it go. Imagine my grandad opening up
:33:27. > :33:36.his paper and they're being my bats! It should go. There is nothing wrong
:33:37. > :33:43.with it. He wants it to go. What about people who think that page
:33:44. > :33:53.three should be banned? Idiots. Do you know a girl called Lacey, aged
:33:54. > :33:59.22, from Bedford? Good luck to her. I do not know her as a person that I
:34:00. > :34:06.have heard she is nice. What about her decision to be on page three?
:34:07. > :34:15.Nothing to lose. Do you think she has made Bedford proud? That is not
:34:16. > :34:24.hard. What have we learned? More people want page three to stay down
:34:25. > :34:30.for it to go. Most people do not really seem to care, do they? You
:34:31. > :34:36.have heard a range of views. I am not arguing it should be banned. I
:34:37. > :34:42.have not argued for it to be banned but I have disapproved of it since
:34:43. > :34:53.the 1970s. You do not think it should be banned? I do not think
:34:54. > :34:59.there should be dictating content but I do think, if you arrive from
:35:00. > :35:02.outer space in this country in 21st-century Britain, and asked
:35:03. > :35:07.yourself what was the role of women in society... To stand in their
:35:08. > :35:12.knickers and nothing else, I think women have more to aspire to than to
:35:13. > :35:22.be able to take their clothes off in public. The sun no longer has the
:35:23. > :35:27.circulation, or the political importance, that it had in the 1980s
:35:28. > :35:32.when page three was at its height. Aren't people just voting with their
:35:33. > :35:38.feet anyway? The market is sorting this out. Half the number of people
:35:39. > :35:44.buy it now than they did 20 years ago. Until the time the sun does not
:35:45. > :35:51.have page three any more, I am entitled to my view that it is
:35:52. > :36:00.outdated and wrong. I am happy to establish that you do not want to
:36:01. > :36:05.ban it. What should happen? Should people boycott the paper? I have
:36:06. > :36:11.never implied or said it should be banned. I have always been
:36:12. > :36:16.forthright. Should people boycott the paper? I have not called for a
:36:17. > :36:22.boycott. The women's movement, of which I am part, and this is not
:36:23. > :36:27.about politicians censoring the press. I am part of the movement
:36:28. > :36:34.which says women can do better than taking off their clothes and being
:36:35. > :36:40.in their knickers in the newspapers. Why don't you do something about it?
:36:41. > :36:48.I am doing something about it by saying it is outdated. I am not
:36:49. > :36:54.doing anything more about it. Should people buy the paper as long as
:36:55. > :36:58.there is a page three? Would you like to say to viewers, as long as
:36:59. > :37:07.page three is in the sand, you should not buy it? Dashes-macro be
:37:08. > :37:11.Son. I am saying, wake up to what the role of women in society should
:37:12. > :37:15.be, which is more than page three. If they changed it in Australia,
:37:16. > :37:22.which is where Rupert Murdoch came from, why can they not change it in
:37:23. > :37:26.this country? You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just
:37:27. > :37:41.over 20 minutes... I'll be talking to man leading
:37:42. > :37:47.Welcome to the daily politics for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Coming
:37:48. > :37:50.up: Far from being a burden, we look into claims that European migrants
:37:51. > :38:04.have actually boosted our economy. However, Nigel Farage takes a
:38:05. > :38:09.different view. We will be discussing that with a Conservative
:38:10. > :38:18.MEP and the Labour MP for Huddersfield. Hello to you both. On
:38:19. > :38:23.Friday, MPs debated the referendum bill which would pave the way for a
:38:24. > :38:29.referendum by 2017 on the EU. Assuming if and when it goes ahead,
:38:30. > :38:35.how will the British people vote? By 2017, we are going to see very much
:38:36. > :38:40.a new package on offer to the British people about Europe and
:38:41. > :38:46.David Cameron is very much wanting this legislation that Barry and some
:38:47. > :38:50.of his pals have been trying to block out in Westminster on Friday.
:38:51. > :38:54.We want to have this legislation in place. We want to have a referendum
:38:55. > :38:59.once we have new terms to offer the people and then they will decide. My
:39:00. > :39:04.own view is that we would I would like to see us staying in the EU. I
:39:05. > :39:08.think they are going to vote in favour. I draw a parallel with the
:39:09. > :39:13.Scottish referendum. I think that when push comes to shove, when
:39:14. > :39:19.people have looked at it hard and looked at things like the CBI
:39:20. > :39:23.evidence today, going out of Europe would cost each household ?3000.
:39:24. > :39:28.They will look at the evidence. They will see, coming up to remembrance
:39:29. > :39:33.Sunday, that we have, for this long period, had a prosperous and a
:39:34. > :39:37.peaceful Europe which is very important, if you take the long
:39:38. > :39:40.view. We will talk more in the moment but this week, the bosses'
:39:41. > :39:43.organisation the CBI warned that pulling out of the European Union
:39:44. > :39:47.would be a disaster for British business. Now, of course many would
:39:48. > :39:50.regard that as hot air. But Len Tingle has been speaking to some of
:39:51. > :39:54.the Yorkshire firms who say millions of pounds worth of investment and
:39:55. > :40:03.thousands of jobs are reliant on us remaining part of the EU.
:40:04. > :40:07.This engineering works is probably about as far from the sea as
:40:08. > :40:11.anywhere in the UK. This Sheffield company says its future lies more
:40:12. > :40:15.than 30 miles off the coast of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, out in
:40:16. > :40:20.the North Sea. It makes parts for the wind power industry. There are
:40:21. > :40:27.thousands of turbines potentially going to be fitted. Each turbine
:40:28. > :40:31.might be an average cost of anything up to ?4 million. The numbers speak
:40:32. > :40:36.for themselves. If some proportion of that comes through UK ports and
:40:37. > :40:39.manufacturing, there is a very big proportion of investment which will
:40:40. > :40:45.come into the UK market. We don't want to lose that to other regions
:40:46. > :40:50.in Europe. And that danger is easy to see. These are the latest wind
:40:51. > :40:53.farms built just off the Humber. Every turbine, every blade has been
:40:54. > :40:58.manufactured and assembled in Holland, Germany or Denmark. And
:40:59. > :41:01.these are just tiddlers in comparison to another three giant
:41:02. > :41:05.projects being planned for a few miles further out to sea, costing
:41:06. > :41:12.billions to build. At least two manufacturers, including Siemens,
:41:13. > :41:16.have said they want to setup plants on the banks of the Humber and
:41:17. > :41:21.employ thousands. But they are being very slow to sign the contracts and
:41:22. > :41:26.get started. And some worry a referendum on the UK leaving the
:41:27. > :41:29.European Union is not helping. The CBI have already published a survey
:41:30. > :41:36.of its members across the UK, that says eight out of ten of the members
:41:37. > :41:43.asked want to see Britain staying in Europe, albeit with some reform.
:41:44. > :41:47.That issue, if it is going to be debated, is something that business
:41:48. > :41:53.and business organisations need to inform. And the competition is
:41:54. > :41:56.gearing up. Not just European companies but international firms.
:41:57. > :42:01.On Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, the regeneration industries held
:42:02. > :42:06.their annual showcase event in Birmingham. Jostling for attention
:42:07. > :42:09.was a consortium representing over 200 Yorkshire and Lincolnshire
:42:10. > :42:14.companies who want that work to come to the Humber. With a supply chain
:42:15. > :42:17.stretching all the way to Sheffield. There are concerns the critical
:42:18. > :42:24.debate on our EU membership is getting in the way. Our place in
:42:25. > :42:28.Europe, that is still to be decided. David Cameron was talking
:42:29. > :42:33.about a referendum on that. What business once is certainty. Things
:42:34. > :42:38.like that muddy the water a little bit. The port of Grimsby already
:42:39. > :42:42.demonstrates how valuable the offshore wind industry can be. It is
:42:43. > :42:46.already the Centre for service and maintenance of existing turbines in
:42:47. > :42:50.the North Sea. But the real prize is persuading those giant companies,
:42:51. > :42:55.mostly based in other European member states, to set up assembly
:42:56. > :43:00.plants here and buy their components from our region 's existing
:43:01. > :43:03.manufacturers. Most of the manufacturers of wind turbine
:43:04. > :43:09.systems are based in Europe. The only disadvantage is we will be out
:43:10. > :43:12.of Europe. We need to work with Europe more to make sure more
:43:13. > :43:16.investment comes through British ports than through places like
:43:17. > :43:22.Sheffield and Humberside, where we can deliver to the North Sea
:43:23. > :43:25.effectively, giving British jobs. These new jobs from wind power have
:43:26. > :43:30.been talked about for two years and more now. Nobody believes it is
:43:31. > :43:39.simply hot air. But until contracts and inward investment are finally
:43:40. > :43:41.settled, the concerns will continue. Do you think many businesses see the
:43:42. > :43:48.referendum campaign is a distraction? Not really. I think
:43:49. > :43:52.business is made up of people. People want to have a referendum.
:43:53. > :43:55.They would like a say on this matter. As far as I'm concerned, the
:43:56. > :43:58.Prime Minister 's view is shared by an awful lot of other people in
:43:59. > :44:02.Europe, who would like to see reforms and changes taking place. I
:44:03. > :44:05.think it is appropriate we should give the people of the country a
:44:06. > :44:12.choice about this in due course. I find it rather rich... Barry, on
:44:13. > :44:17.Friday, and his friends, were filibustering, barking at divisions
:44:18. > :44:19.in the House of Commons, generally obstructing. It doesn't sit
:44:20. > :44:22.comfortably with the statement that they are happy to have a
:44:23. > :44:27.referendum. The Labour Party really has got to decide one way or
:44:28. > :44:32.another. I think asking people what they think on the subject is
:44:33. > :44:35.something we ought to do. Why do you think Ed Miliband are so reluctant
:44:36. > :44:42.to commit to a referendum? I think that we've got to make sure that the
:44:43. > :44:47.referendum is at the right time. At the moment, uncertainty for British
:44:48. > :44:51.business until 2017 is a disaster. It is one that on the backbenches in
:44:52. > :44:54.Parliament on Friday, a lot of conservatives were expressing
:44:55. > :45:00.concern about. This long uncertainty over British business. I've got
:45:01. > :45:04.wonderful companies in Huddersfield, very keen to expand
:45:05. > :45:09.even more into offshore wind power. We are all waiting for those
:45:10. > :45:14.decisions by people like Siemens to be made. What we want is leadership
:45:15. > :45:18.and we want decisions. What we've got at the moment is weak leadership
:45:19. > :45:21.because the government has not got a majority and of course, on the
:45:22. > :45:31.Conservative benches, they are running absolutely deftly scared of
:45:32. > :45:37.UKIP. Everything they said on Friday, you could see the ghost of
:45:38. > :45:41.UKIP behind them. We don't get the strong leadership we need. You
:45:42. > :45:46.running scared? I don't think so. I think Barry is heading in a very
:45:47. > :45:49.funny sort of way. He said we must make up our minds quickly. This
:45:50. > :45:53.would be the wrong time to have a referendum, before we have the
:45:54. > :45:59.reforms and changes which he surely agrees we need in Europe. He and his
:46:00. > :46:02.pals are playing games in London, trying to obstruct this legislation.
:46:03. > :46:08.Why did they supported and let's get on with it? We can then carry out
:46:09. > :46:12.our pledge to give the people the right to have a decision. Let's get
:46:13. > :46:15.on and given that choice. Surely there is an argument for getting the
:46:16. > :46:24.referendum out of the way sooner rather than later. And this is David
:46:25. > :46:28.Cameron 's timetable, 2017, the other side of an election which is
:46:29. > :46:32.absurd. His backbenchers who were speaking on Friday wanted for 2014,
:46:33. > :46:38.which sounds more sensible to me. I'm not against the referendum. I
:46:39. > :46:44.think that we will win a referendum, once we have a proper
:46:45. > :46:48.system. Tim, I'm afraid, has been in the European bubble a bit too long.
:46:49. > :46:58.We had a really good short debate. I didn't see any filibustering. There
:46:59. > :47:03.have been five Fridays. They were standing around trying to delay this
:47:04. > :47:07.matter. You weren't there and you heard about what happened and you
:47:08. > :47:11.know exactly there was a good, robust debate, totally taken over by
:47:12. > :47:19.the government. It is a pretence that it is a Private members Bill.
:47:20. > :47:23.To be clear, your advice to Ed Miliband would be for him to hold a
:47:24. > :47:29.referendum next year. I am happy with a referendum to go on as soon
:47:30. > :47:33.as we can get a proper process in place. At the moment, we have no
:47:34. > :47:43.government behind this. It has been done by a kind of furtive way,
:47:44. > :47:49.pressing on a poor Tory backbencher to introduce a Private members Bill.
:47:50. > :47:53.That man is said not a word today. This is a government bill because
:47:54. > :47:57.they cannot get it through if it has had government on the face of it.
:47:58. > :48:02.That shows very weak leadership. What I want is strong leadership.
:48:03. > :48:08.Let's have it in their manifestoes. It is only 18 months and let's get
:48:09. > :48:11.on with it. This was a proper Parliamentary day. There has been
:48:12. > :48:15.plenty of publicity about this. Hardly anybody has failed to
:48:16. > :48:20.understand this is something... What they will see is the childish
:48:21. > :48:23.behaviour of the Labour Party. It is not responsible. You have been away
:48:24. > :48:28.from Westminster for a long time. I've been serving on the European
:48:29. > :48:32.referendum bill for several weeks. We have done no filibustering. It is
:48:33. > :48:37.on course. It's on timetable. I don't know what you're getting...
:48:38. > :48:43.You remember Harold Wilson very well then, Barry. The actually introduced
:48:44. > :48:49.a referendum which we won. Let's not go over the events of 1975! No
:48:50. > :48:56.filibustering honours programme. One subject more than any other which
:48:57. > :48:59.polarises opinion when it comes to our membership of the EU is
:49:00. > :49:03.immigration. It's the issue that Nigel Farage hopes will catapult
:49:04. > :49:06.UKIP to the top of the polls in next year's European elections. And once
:49:07. > :49:08.again immigration prompted a fierce debate on this week's Question Time,
:49:09. > :49:16.which came from the Lincolnshire town of Boston.
:49:17. > :49:24.Boston has seen a huge influx of migrant workers in recent years.
:49:25. > :49:28.Many open up new businesses. But not everyone has welcomed the arrival of
:49:29. > :49:32.these new families, the majority from Eastern Europe. It is a subject
:49:33. > :49:37.that not surprisingly played centre stage on this week 's question
:49:38. > :49:41.Time. My family have lived in Boston for 200 years now. We have to fight
:49:42. > :49:47.for services that seem to get handed to newcomers on a plate. How can
:49:48. > :49:51.this be right? What this town has been through is a population
:49:52. > :49:57.explosion over the course of the last 15 years. That is a direct
:49:58. > :50:04.result of our membership of the European Union. People come here to
:50:05. > :50:10.work. You do not talk facts. You talk prejudice. Everyone can come.
:50:11. > :50:16.You scaremonger and you put fear in people 's hearts. Last year, Dean
:50:17. > :50:21.Everett held an anti`immigration protest in the town. It prompted the
:50:22. > :50:25.local council to publish a report on the effect of immigration in this
:50:26. > :50:30.part of Lincolnshire. However, he says things have not changed. I
:50:31. > :50:34.still think there is a wider issue. The fact the government have let so
:50:35. > :50:37.many people in now, they are saying English kids don't want the work but
:50:38. > :50:40.they can't get the work because Polish nationals have taken a work.
:50:41. > :50:44.Until they create jobs for these people to have, they will be a lot
:50:45. > :50:51.of and implement in this area. I spoke to this person who speaks `
:50:52. > :50:59.teaches Ingush and comes from the Lithuanian community. He... They are
:51:00. > :51:05.very hard`working, especially the Lithuanian community. They pay taxes
:51:06. > :51:14.and they do a very good impact. I think the net contribution... A
:51:15. > :51:19.report this week claimed that immigrants who arrived after 1999
:51:20. > :51:23.with 45% less likely to receive state benefits or tax credits than
:51:24. > :51:30.people born in the UK. Those from the European economic area had paid
:51:31. > :51:35.34% more in taxes than they received in benefits. What matters for
:51:36. > :51:40.political decisions is whether on average immigrants from these
:51:41. > :51:45.countries have made a negative or a positive contribution. Our findings
:51:46. > :51:50.are that those immigrants that arrived after 1999 established that
:51:51. > :51:57.that contribution has been positive and quite remarkably so. UKIP
:51:58. > :52:01.Celebrated winning 16 seats earlier this year but six of those
:52:02. > :52:04.councillors, including the group 's former leader, have now been kicked
:52:05. > :52:13.out of you kept due to a dispute with the party leadership. `` UKIP.
:52:14. > :52:17.The leader is hoping to keep squabbles at bay if he is going to
:52:18. > :52:21.cash in on the floats next year. Why do you think so many voters
:52:22. > :52:27.don't trust the mainstream parties on immigration? None of us have been
:52:28. > :52:32.very good at talking about it. It has been a no`no. Don't talk about
:52:33. > :52:39.immigration because if you do people will say you are a racist. There has
:52:40. > :52:43.been a not nice atmosphere for a long time. I think there is a
:52:44. > :52:48.healthy discourse going on at the moment. I think we should talk about
:52:49. > :52:52.it. On the one hand, bright people who want to work from all over
:52:53. > :52:57.Europe come here. You cannot blame them for coming here because they
:52:58. > :53:01.have very high unemployment in Spain and Portugal and other parts of
:53:02. > :53:06.Eastern Europe. They see Great Britain as a comparatively well
:53:07. > :53:13.growing economy and they come here for work. You've got to balance that
:53:14. > :53:16.with the fact that a lot of young people coming out of school now,
:53:17. > :53:20.with not very high qualifications, are facing great, are facing great
:53:21. > :53:30.connotation for a job. Let's talk about that rather than pretend that
:53:31. > :53:36.it isn't happening. UKIP have made you all toughen up your policies on
:53:37. > :53:39.immigration, haven't they? Derry 's long memory will probably include my
:53:40. > :53:49.Tim is the immigration listed in the UK. That was under John Major. My
:53:50. > :53:52.view then, as it is now, is that we should welcome people who come to
:53:53. > :53:57.this country, where there is a mutual benefit, both to this country
:53:58. > :54:03.and to them themselves. If you take a look at our region in Yorkshire,
:54:04. > :54:08.it's the third nicest place in the world. I think that is too low down
:54:09. > :54:11.the list. Nevertheless, our region needs people to come and skills to
:54:12. > :54:15.be exchanged across Europe, including into our U region in
:54:16. > :54:20.Yorkshire. I think we should take, if you like, a sensible, practical
:54:21. > :54:27.view on the immigration question. The behaviour of UKIP is very
:54:28. > :54:31.unfortunate because it is trying to get at peoples emotions, rather than
:54:32. > :54:35.looking at what facts are and rather than looking at what the benefits
:54:36. > :54:40.could be. Barry, you say you want to have a debate about immigration, but
:54:41. > :54:44.why were Labour not having a debate about immigration in 2004 when you
:54:45. > :54:47.opened up our borders to the rest of Europe? The borders have been
:54:48. > :54:54.consistently opened as the European Union has grown. The free movement
:54:55. > :55:00.of labour was at the core of the European experience. I don't think
:55:01. > :55:05.we talked through with our people enough about what implications of
:55:06. > :55:08.that were going to be. Tim is absolutely right. I remember when he
:55:09. > :55:12.was immigration minister and the fact is, Britain is a very
:55:13. > :55:19.attractive place to come to. It's a wonderful country. It has good,
:55:20. > :55:22.sound laws, we have the rule of law, all the institutions that people
:55:23. > :55:27.around the world admire. We are a magnet. That does mean a lot of
:55:28. > :55:34.people want to come here. I find it very hard not to worry about the
:55:35. > :55:38.opportunities that some of our young people coming out of the workplace
:55:39. > :55:42.have because they have a tremendous amount of competition that you, I
:55:43. > :55:46.and Tim certainly didn't have when we came out of school. Let's think
:55:47. > :55:52.about it, talk about it and see what we can do about it. Are we going to
:55:53. > :55:56.get a big influx of Romanians and Bulgarians in the New Year? We
:55:57. > :55:59.already have quite a lot of them and seasonal workers and schemes. They
:56:00. > :56:05.will have free access from January the 1st. The point is, it is being
:56:06. > :56:10.whipped up into a big thing. My own view... That is why they are getting
:56:11. > :56:15.the votes. It's on the wrong premise. We must retain controls, we
:56:16. > :56:18.must decide what is best for our country but that should not include
:56:19. > :56:22.pulling power drawbridge completely and not allowing people to come
:56:23. > :56:25.here, to bring their skills to help us in the same way as our young
:56:26. > :56:35.people want opportunities to go elsewhere in European Union and
:56:36. > :56:39.syrup filled with their skills. Let's get some more of the week's
:56:40. > :56:46.political news now. David Tratch has our round`up in 60 seconds.
:56:47. > :56:49.A Sunday Mirror investigation has revealed what MPs claimed in fuel
:56:50. > :56:55.bills for the London homes. Two MPs from our region work towards the top
:56:56. > :57:02.of the league. Edward Leigh was sixth from the top, claiming ?3337.
:57:03. > :57:11.Labour 's Wakefield MP claimed ?2182. This Barnsley MP raised in
:57:12. > :57:16.the Commons what the Labour MP played a major role in initiating
:57:17. > :57:22.last month. New laws on plain packaging for cigarettes as a way of
:57:23. > :57:26.stopping teenagers starting lifelong habits. Sadly, the government will
:57:27. > :57:33.not act to introduce plain packaging. In mass petition was
:57:34. > :57:38.handed over about rural communities are earning less in salaries, paying
:57:39. > :57:48.more in council tax and receiving fewer government grants.
:57:49. > :57:52.Barry, do you think it is right that taxpayers have to find the energy
:57:53. > :58:00.bills for MPs and second homes? You have claimed ?680 for your gas bill.
:58:01. > :58:04.Is that right? Dreadful. I guess so. I put all that in the hands of a
:58:05. > :58:09.member of staff that works with the independent regulator and all that
:58:10. > :58:18.is done automatically. I have to say, I do not get involved with
:58:19. > :58:22.that. All I do, with the glare of publicity on expenses as it is these
:58:23. > :58:28.days, we have an independent regulator, I've conform to the
:58:29. > :58:34.rules. This is a silly story from the daily Mirror. Do you have these
:58:35. > :58:40.perks in the European Parliament? We do and we have an open... By group
:58:41. > :58:46.set up a right to know process. It's on the web, precisely what we spend
:58:47. > :58:50.and so on. Transparency and open sea are right. That is mostly the case
:58:51. > :58:55.with Westminster. After this episode on Friday with a referendum Bill,
:58:56. > :59:00.they will be able to paying substantially more in a hot air
:59:01. > :59:07.balloon Bill! I thought Beaujolais was the main source of energy at the
:59:08. > :59:16.European Parliament! I thought it was a gravy train! Why do we need
:59:17. > :59:20.plain packaging on cigarettes? Because all the research shows that
:59:21. > :59:26.the attractive packaging attracts young people. Smoking kills you. It
:59:27. > :59:32.shortens your life and is a dreadful thing. I've always been
:59:33. > :59:37.anti`smoking. We know that if you get trapped in, it's addictive. If
:59:38. > :59:42.you get addicted young, it's really hard to give up later. Plain
:59:43. > :59:46.packaging would help. I think there is a certain PR adviser in number
:59:47. > :59:56.ten who has been behind resisting this. Lynton Crosby... Why are the
:59:57. > :59:59.Tories opposed to it? Because they feel it is necessarily going to
:00:00. > :00:03.agree what we all want which is to discourage young people from smoking
:00:04. > :00:07.in the first place and not to encourage adults to smoke too much.
:00:08. > :00:11.I don't think that packaging effect would have any positive effects at
:00:12. > :00:18.all. All the research shows it does. It depends where it's coming from.
:00:19. > :00:21.It is health act commission Mark MPs still get a snuff allowance in the
:00:22. > :00:31.House of Commons, I found out this week. Thank you both for your time
:00:32. > :00:32.today. With that, let's go back to Andrew Neil in
:00:33. > :00:44.We learned this week that no more warships will be built at
:00:45. > :00:48.Portsmouth, the home of the Royal Navy since the days of the Mary Rose
:00:49. > :00:51.and Francis Drake. But has the city been sacrificed to save jobs on the
:00:52. > :00:55.Clyde in Scotland? Is England the loser in an effort to keep the
:00:56. > :01:05.United Kingdom intact? Let's speak to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign
:01:06. > :01:09.for an English Parliament. Is England the loser in this attempt to
:01:10. > :01:17.doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English
:01:18. > :01:22.Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to
:01:23. > :01:28.stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best
:01:29. > :01:32.outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?
:01:33. > :01:36.We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is
:01:37. > :01:42.an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the
:01:43. > :01:46.people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for
:01:47. > :01:53.independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be
:01:54. > :02:00.dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without
:02:01. > :02:05.true representation. The union continues but it continues without
:02:06. > :02:10.Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional
:02:11. > :02:15.position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional
:02:16. > :02:21.position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year We
:02:22. > :02:26.want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained
:02:27. > :02:31.or England can have a fair deal within the union, that is brilliant.
:02:32. > :02:35.Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally If
:02:36. > :02:44.that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,
:02:45. > :02:49.it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the
:02:50. > :02:53.union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by
:02:54. > :02:58.England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,
:02:59. > :03:05.wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny
:03:06. > :03:10.list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to
:03:11. > :03:14.the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very
:03:15. > :03:19.concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched
:03:20. > :03:24.British come English Parliament the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable
:03:25. > :03:29.situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with
:03:30. > :03:32.Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about
:03:33. > :03:37.trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile
:03:38. > :03:42.situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation
:03:43. > :03:46.separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and
:03:47. > :03:52.Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I
:03:53. > :03:59.want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were
:04:00. > :04:06.sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to
:04:07. > :04:15.remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.
:04:16. > :04:21.Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become
:04:22. > :04:25.a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England
:04:26. > :04:29.to have their representation - representation that looks at
:04:30. > :04:33.policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern
:04:34. > :04:37.Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way
:04:38. > :04:49.forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system
:04:50. > :04:57.might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you
:04:58. > :05:04.want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is
:05:05. > :05:09.implement the process is to get their representation for England. I
:05:10. > :05:14.would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way
:05:15. > :05:20.to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.
:05:21. > :05:22.Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the
:05:23. > :05:28.British government is trying desperately to save the union by
:05:29. > :05:34.giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this
:05:35. > :05:38.business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been
:05:39. > :05:42.pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the
:05:43. > :05:47.union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a
:05:48. > :05:51.disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a
:05:52. > :05:55.minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow
:05:56. > :06:00.its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to
:06:01. > :06:05.admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be
:06:06. > :06:09.dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a
:06:10. > :06:14.Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a
:06:15. > :06:20.killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in
:06:21. > :06:26.this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.
:06:27. > :06:31.And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial
:06:32. > :06:35.area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has
:06:36. > :06:39.backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in
:06:40. > :06:43.Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English
:06:44. > :06:48.nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist
:06:49. > :06:52.in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed
:06:53. > :06:55.to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to
:06:56. > :07:02.win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to
:07:03. > :07:10.imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more
:07:11. > :07:15.autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David
:07:16. > :07:19.Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any
:07:20. > :07:26.vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,
:07:27. > :07:30.you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is
:07:31. > :07:33.economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the
:07:34. > :07:37.United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this
:07:38. > :07:41.government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of
:07:42. > :07:45.being in the United Kingdom and under their breath, or in the case
:07:46. > :07:52.of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave
:07:53. > :07:56.That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you
:07:57. > :07:59.like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you
:08:00. > :08:02.happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last
:08:03. > :08:05.week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He
:08:06. > :08:09.said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,
:08:10. > :08:13.what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll
:08:14. > :08:22.hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I
:08:23. > :08:26.have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?
:08:27. > :08:33.Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used
:08:34. > :08:40.drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years
:08:41. > :08:46.ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few
:08:47. > :08:53.times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine I
:08:54. > :09:18.tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around
:09:19. > :09:25.you who took cocaine, they went .. Is it better to confess or the that
:09:26. > :09:31.get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession
:09:32. > :09:37.by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once
:09:38. > :09:43.smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that
:09:44. > :09:47.she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about
:09:48. > :09:53.them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not
:09:54. > :10:04.deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant
:10:05. > :10:09.to be regarded as a rising star turns out he was claiming to heat
:10:10. > :10:15.his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a
:10:16. > :10:18.generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went
:10:19. > :10:22.through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables
:10:23. > :10:28.and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely
:10:29. > :10:36.honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy
:10:37. > :10:41.is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was
:10:42. > :10:45.saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet
:10:46. > :10:50.Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,
:10:51. > :10:58.you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you
:10:59. > :11:00.cannot have a front line career There is the politician confessing
:11:01. > :11:05.and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is
:11:06. > :11:10.enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair
:11:11. > :11:15.or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be
:11:16. > :11:20.mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There
:11:21. > :11:26.was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine He
:11:27. > :11:33.was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the
:11:34. > :11:39.line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.
:11:40. > :11:42.Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will
:11:43. > :11:46.surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes
:11:47. > :11:51.on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those
:11:52. > :11:56.who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.
:11:57. > :12:04.The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 201 ,
:12:05. > :12:09.early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages
:12:10. > :12:14.will have two find an extra ?40 a month to pay them off. I would not
:12:15. > :12:26.be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this
:12:27. > :12:35.trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very
:12:36. > :12:39.careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a
:12:40. > :12:43.certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled
:12:44. > :12:47.before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory
:12:48. > :12:51.strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement
:12:52. > :13:01.or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.
:13:02. > :13:05.-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions
:13:06. > :13:12.about it, it is senior figures people in senior economic positions.
:13:13. > :13:16.They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be
:13:17. > :13:21.surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it
:13:22. > :13:27.is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be
:13:28. > :13:30.cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two
:13:31. > :13:33.at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.
:13:34. > :13:44.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.