:00:36. > :00:45.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne
:00:46. > :00:48.announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk
:00:49. > :00:52.to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's mini
:00:53. > :00:56.budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first
:00:57. > :01:01.time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it
:01:02. > :01:10.down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the
:01:11. > :01:14.Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the easier it will
:01:15. > :01:18.be for some cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says
:01:19. > :01:26.inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity.
:01:27. > :01:31.On the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, as the Chancellor
:01:32. > :01:43.promises to cut green taxes on our energy bills, some firms claim
:01:44. > :01:46.deliver? And with me throughout today's
:01:47. > :01:53.programme, well, we've shaken the packet and look who's risen to the
:01:54. > :01:56.top. Or did we open it at the bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh
:01:57. > :02:05.and Sam Coates. All three will be tweeting throughout the programme
:02:06. > :02:08.using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise
:02:09. > :02:10.to freeze energy prices has set the Westminster agenda, the Coalition
:02:11. > :02:13.Government is finally coming up with its answer. This morning the
:02:14. > :02:16.Chancellor George Osborne explained how he plans to cut household energy
:02:17. > :02:20.bills by an average of fifty quid. What we're going to do is roll back
:02:21. > :02:25.the levees that are placed by government on people's electricity
:02:26. > :02:29.bills. This will mean that for the average bill payer, they will have
:02:30. > :02:35.?50 of those electricity and gas bills. That will help families. We
:02:36. > :02:40.are doing it in the way that government can do it. We are
:02:41. > :02:43.controlling the cost that families incurred because of government
:02:44. > :02:46.policies. We are doing it in a way that will not damage the environment
:02:47. > :02:53.or reduce our commitment to dealing with climate change. We will not
:02:54. > :02:58.produce commit men to helping low-income families with the cost of
:02:59. > :03:01.living. Janan, we are finally seeing the coalition begin to play its hand
:03:02. > :03:06.in response to the Ed Miliband freeze? They have been trying to
:03:07. > :03:11.respond for almost ten weeks and older responses have been quite
:03:12. > :03:16.fiddly. We are going to take a bit of tax year, put it onto general
:03:17. > :03:19.taxation, have a conversation with the energy companies, engineered a
:03:20. > :03:26.rebate of some kind, this is not very vivid. The advantage of the
:03:27. > :03:29.idea that they have announced overnight is that it is clear and it
:03:30. > :03:38.has a nice round figure attached to it, ?50. The chief of staff of
:03:39. > :03:42.President Obama, he said, if you are explaining, you're losing. The
:03:43. > :03:48.genius of this idea is that it does not require explanation. He would
:03:49. > :03:52.not drawn this morning on what agreement he had with the energy
:03:53. > :03:56.companies, and whether this would fall through to the bottom of the
:03:57. > :04:00.bill, but the way he spoke, saying, I am not going to pre-empt what the
:04:01. > :04:06.energy companies say, that suggests he has something up his sleeve. Yes,
:04:07. > :04:11.I thought so. The energy companies have made this so badly for so long.
:04:12. > :04:16.It would be awful if he announced this and the energy companies said,
:04:17. > :04:22.we are going to keep this money for ourselves. I do not think he is that
:04:23. > :04:27.stupid. The energy companies have an incentive to go along with this
:04:28. > :04:31.don't they? My worry is that I am not sure how much it will be within
:04:32. > :04:36.the opinion polls. I think people might expect this now, it is not a
:04:37. > :04:43.new thing, it is not an exciting thing. Say in the markets, they may
:04:44. > :04:48.have priced the ten already. If by Thursday of this week, he is able to
:04:49. > :04:53.say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your bill. The energy companies have
:04:54. > :04:58.guaranteed that this will fall through onto your energy bill, and
:04:59. > :05:03.they have indicated to me that they themselves will not put up energy
:05:04. > :05:09.prices through 2014, has he shot the Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a
:05:10. > :05:13.couple of challenges. It is still very hard. This is an answer for the
:05:14. > :05:16.next 12 months but did is no chance announced that Labour will stop
:05:17. > :05:21.saying they are going to freeze prices in the next Parliament. He
:05:22. > :05:27.will say, I have not just frozen them, I have done that as well and I
:05:28. > :05:31.have cut them. When people look at their energy bills, they are going
:05:32. > :05:37.up by more than ?50. This is a reduction in the amount that they
:05:38. > :05:42.are going up overall. Year on 0 will be for George Osborne. He will
:05:43. > :05:49.have to come up with something this time next year. The detail in the
:05:50. > :05:53.Sunday papers reveals that George Osborne is trying to get the energy
:05:54. > :05:57.companies to put on bills that 50 has been knocked off your bill
:05:58. > :06:02.because of a reduction by the government. He is trying to get the
:06:03. > :06:07.energy companies to do his political bidding for him. It will be
:06:08. > :06:13.interesting to see if they go along with that, because then we will know
:06:14. > :06:16.how cross the arm with Ed Miliband. Let's get another perspective.
:06:17. > :06:19.Joining me now from Kendal in the Lake District is the president of
:06:20. > :06:28.the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good
:06:29. > :06:33.morning. Let me ask you this, the coalition is rowing back on green
:06:34. > :06:38.taxes, I do comfortable with that or is it something else you will rebel
:06:39. > :06:43.against? I am very comfortable with the fact we are protecting for the
:06:44. > :06:48.money is going. I am open to where the money comes from. The notion
:06:49. > :06:52.that we should stop insulating the homes of elderly people or stop
:06:53. > :06:56.investing in British manufacturing in terms of green industry, that is
:06:57. > :07:00.something that I resolutely oppose, but I am pleased that the funding
:07:01. > :07:06.will be made available for all that. You cannot ignore the fact that for
:07:07. > :07:11.a whole range of reasons, mostly down to the actions of the energy
:07:12. > :07:15.companies, you have prices that are shooting up and affecting lots of
:07:16. > :07:20.people, making life hard. You cannot ignore that. If we fund the
:07:21. > :07:26.installation of homes for older people and others, if we protect
:07:27. > :07:28.British manufacturing jobs, and raise the money through general
:07:29. > :07:36.taxation, I am comfortable with that. It is not clear that is going
:07:37. > :07:39.to happen. It looks like the eco-scheme, whereby the energy
:07:40. > :07:43.companies pay for the installation of those on below-average incomes,
:07:44. > :07:47.they will spin that out over four years, not two years, and one
:07:48. > :07:53.estimate is that that will cost 10,000 jobs. You're always boasting
:07:54. > :08:01.about your commitment to green jobs, how do square that? I do not believe
:08:02. > :08:05.that. The roll-out will be longer. The number of houses reached will be
:08:06. > :08:12.greater and that is a good thing. My take is that it will not affect the
:08:13. > :08:16.number of jobs. People talk about green levies. There has been
:08:17. > :08:23.disparaging language about that sort of thing. There are 2 million people
:08:24. > :08:32.in this country in the lowest income families and they get ?230 off their
:08:33. > :08:35.energy bills because of what isn't -- because of what is disparaging
:08:36. > :08:43.the refer to as green stuff, shall we call it. There will be more
:08:44. > :08:48.properties covered. We both know that your party is being pushed into
:08:49. > :08:54.this by the Tories. You would not be doing this off your own bad. You are
:08:55. > :09:02.in coalition with people who have jettisoned their green Prudential
:09:03. > :09:10.is? -- credentials. You have made my point quite well. David Cameron s
:09:11. > :09:15.panicked response to this over the last few months was to ditch all the
:09:16. > :09:19.green stuff. It has been a job to make sure that we hold him to his
:09:20. > :09:23.pledges and the green cord of this government. That is why we are not
:09:24. > :09:31.scrapping the investment, we are making sure it is funded from
:09:32. > :09:36.general taxation. I am talking to you from Kendal. Lots of people
:09:37. > :09:39.struggle to pay their energy bills. But all these things pale into
:09:40. > :09:42.insignificance compared to the threat of climate change and we must
:09:43. > :09:48.hold the Prime Minister to account on this issue. Argue reconciled to
:09:49. > :09:54.the idea that as long as you're in coalition with the Tories you will
:09:55. > :09:59.never get a mansion tax? I am not reconciled to it. We are trying to
:10:00. > :10:05.give off other tax cut to the lowest income people. What about the
:10:06. > :10:10.mansion tax? That would be potentially paid for by another view
:10:11. > :10:14.source of finance. That would be that the wealthy... We know that is
:10:15. > :10:20.what you want, but you're not going to get that? We will keep fighting
:10:21. > :10:30.for it. It is extremely important. We can show where we will get the
:10:31. > :10:35.money from. I know that is the adamant. That is not what I asked
:10:36. > :10:41.you. Ed Balls and Labour run in favour of a mansion tax, have you
:10:42. > :10:45.talked to them about it? The honest answer is I have not. It is
:10:46. > :10:53.interesting that they have come round to supporting our policy
:10:54. > :10:57.having rejected it in power. So if Labour was the largest party in
:10:58. > :11:03.parliament but not in power, you would have no problem agreeing with
:11:04. > :11:07.a mansion tax as part of the deal? If the arithmetic falls in that way
:11:08. > :11:11.and that is the will of the British people, fear taxes on those who are
:11:12. > :11:17.wealthiest, stuff that is fear, which includes wealth taxes, in
:11:18. > :11:20.order to fund more reductions for those people on lowest incomes, that
:11:21. > :11:29.is the sort of thing that we might reach agreement on. You voted with
:11:30. > :11:33.Labour on the spare room subsidy. Again, that would be job done in any
:11:34. > :11:42.future coalition talks with Labour, correct? I take the view that the
:11:43. > :11:46.spare room subsidy, whilst entirely fail in principle, in practice it
:11:47. > :11:50.has caused immense hardship. I want to see that changed. There are many
:11:51. > :11:57.people in government to share my view on that. So does Labour. The
:11:58. > :12:01.problem was largely caused Labour because they oversaw an increase in
:12:02. > :12:07.housing costs both 3.5 times while they were in power. The government
:12:08. > :12:14.was forced into a position to tidy up an appalling mess that Labour
:12:15. > :12:24.left. You voted with Labour against it, and also, you want... No, I
:12:25. > :12:33.voted with the party conference Let's not dance on the head of the
:12:34. > :12:39.ten. Maybe they voted with me. - on the head of a pin. You are also in
:12:40. > :12:45.favour of a 50% top rate of income tax, so you and Labour are that one
:12:46. > :12:51.there as well? No, I take the view that the top rate of income tax is a
:12:52. > :12:58.fluid thing. All taxation levels are temporary. Nick Clegg said that when
:12:59. > :13:02.the 50p rate came down to 45, that was a rather foolish price tag
:13:03. > :13:07.George Osborne asked for in return for as increasing the threshold and
:13:08. > :13:13.letting several million people out of paying income tax at the bottom.
:13:14. > :13:18.So you agree with Labour? In favour of rising the tax to 50p. I take the
:13:19. > :13:23.view that we should keep our minds open on that. It is not the income
:13:24. > :13:29.tax level that bothers me, it is whether the wealthy pay their fresh
:13:30. > :13:38.air. If that can be done through other taxes, then that is something
:13:39. > :13:44.that I am happy with. -- their fair share. Given your position on the
:13:45. > :13:48.top rate of tax, on the spare room subsidy, how does the prospect of
:13:49. > :13:56.another five years of coalition with the Tories strike you? The answer
:13:57. > :14:01.is, you react with whatever you have about you to what the electorate
:14:02. > :14:06.hand you. Whatever happens after the next election, you have got to
:14:07. > :14:12.respect the will of the people. Yes, but how do you feel about it? We
:14:13. > :14:17.know about this, I am asking for your feeling. Does your heart left
:14:18. > :14:22.or does your heart fall at the prospect of another five years with
:14:23. > :14:26.the Tories? My heart would always follow the prospect of anything
:14:27. > :14:32.other than a majority of Liberal Democrat government. Your heart must
:14:33. > :14:36.be permanently in your shoes then. Something like that, but when all is
:14:37. > :14:41.said and done, we accept the will of the electorate. When you stand for
:14:42. > :14:46.election, you have got to put up with what the electorate say. I have
:14:47. > :14:50.not found coalition as difficult as you might suggest. It is about
:14:51. > :14:55.people who have to disagree and agree to differ. You work with
:14:56. > :15:01.people in your daily life that you disagree with. It is what grown ups
:15:02. > :15:05.do. A lot of people in your party think that your positioning yourself
:15:06. > :15:09.to be the left-wing candidate in a post-Nick Clegg leadership contest.
:15:10. > :15:27.They think it is blatant manoeuvring. One senior figure says,
:15:28. > :15:30.this is about you. Which bit of the sanctimonious, treacherous little
:15:31. > :15:36.man is there not to like? What can I see in response to that. My job is
:15:37. > :15:43.to promote the Liberal Democrats. I have to do my best to consider what
:15:44. > :15:50.I'd defend to be right. By and large, my position as an MP in the
:15:51. > :15:54.Lake District, but also as the president of the party, is to
:15:55. > :16:00.reflect the will of people outside the Westminster village. That is the
:16:01. > :16:06.important thing to do. Thank you for joining us. David Cameron has said
:16:07. > :16:09.he wants to get it down to the tens of thousands, Ed Miliband has
:16:10. > :16:13.admitted New Labour "got it wrong", and Nick Clegg wants to be
:16:14. > :16:15."zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes, immigration is back on the political
:16:16. > :16:18.agenda, with figures released earlier this week showing that net
:16:19. > :16:22.migration is on the rise for the first time in two years. And that's
:16:23. > :16:26.not the only reason politicians are talking about it again.
:16:27. > :16:30.The issue of immigration has come into sharp focus because of concerns
:16:31. > :16:36.about the number of remaining ins and Bulgarians that can come to the
:16:37. > :16:41.UK next year. EU citizenship grants the right to free movement within
:16:42. > :16:46.the EU. But when Bulgaria and Romania joined in 2007, the
:16:47. > :16:47.government took up its right to apply temporary restrictions on
:16:48. > :16:57.movement. They must be lifted apply temporary restrictions on
:16:58. > :16:58.end of this year. According to the 2011 census, about one eyed 1
:16:59. > :17:05.million of the population in England and Wales is made up of people from
:17:06. > :17:08.countries who joined the EU in 004. The government has played down
:17:09. > :17:14.expectations that the skill of migration could be repeated. This
:17:15. > :17:19.week David Cameron announced new restrictions on the ability of EU
:17:20. > :17:24.migrants to claim benefits. That was two, send a message. That prompted
:17:25. > :17:32.criticism is that the UK risks being seen as a nasty country. Yvette
:17:33. > :17:39.Cooper joins me now for the Sunday interview. Welcome to the Sunday
:17:40. > :17:44.Politics, Yvette Cooper. You criticised the coalition for not
:17:45. > :17:47.acting sooner on immigration from Romania and Bulgaria but the
:17:48. > :17:51.timetable for the unrestricted arrival in January was agreed under
:17:52. > :17:55.Labour many years ago, and given the battle that you had with the Polish
:17:56. > :17:59.and the Hungarians, what preparations did you make in power?
:18:00. > :18:05.We think that we should learn from some of the things that happened
:18:06. > :18:08.with migration. It would have been better to have transitional controls
:18:09. > :18:14.in place and look at the impact of what happened. But what preparations
:18:15. > :18:16.did you make in power? We set out a series of measures that the
:18:17. > :18:23.Government still had time to bring in. It is important that this should
:18:24. > :18:27.be a calm and measured debate. There was time to bring in measures around
:18:28. > :18:32.benefit restrictions, for example, and looking at the impact on the
:18:33. > :18:36.labour market, to make sure you do not have exploitation of cheap
:18:37. > :18:40.migrant Labour which is bad for everyone. I know that but I have
:18:41. > :18:45.asked you before and I am asking again, what did you do? We got
:18:46. > :18:50.things wrong in Government. I understand that I am not arguing.
:18:51. > :18:56.You are criticising them not preparing, a legitimate criticism,
:18:57. > :19:03.but what did you do in power? Well, I did think we did enough. Did you
:19:04. > :19:09.do anything? We signed the agency workers directive but too slowly. We
:19:10. > :19:13.needed measures like that. We did support things like the social
:19:14. > :19:16.chapter and the minimum wage, but I have said before that we did not do
:19:17. > :19:22.enough and that is why we recommended the measures in March. I
:19:23. > :19:27.understand that is what you did in opposition and I take that. I put
:19:28. > :19:31.the general point to you that given your failure to introduce controls
:19:32. > :19:36.on the countries that joined in 2004, alone among the major EU
:19:37. > :19:41.economies we did that, should we not keep an embarrassed silence on these
:19:42. > :19:44.matters? You have no credibility. I think you have got to talk about
:19:45. > :19:47.immigration. One of the things we did not do in Government was
:19:48. > :19:55.discussed immigration and the concerns people have and the
:19:56. > :19:57.long-term benefits that we know have come from people who have come to
:19:58. > :20:00.Britain over many generations contributing to Britain and having a
:20:01. > :20:03.big impact. I think we recognise that there are things that we did
:20:04. > :20:07.wrong, but it would be irresponsible for us not to join the debate and
:20:08. > :20:12.suggest sensible, practical measures that you can introduce now to
:20:13. > :20:17.address the concerns that people have, but also make sure that the
:20:18. > :20:19.system is fair and managed. Immigration is important to Britain
:20:20. > :20:24.but it does have to be controlled and managed in the right way. Let's
:20:25. > :20:29.remind ourselves of your record on immigration. The chart you did not
:20:30. > :20:34.consult when in power. This is total net migration per year under Labour.
:20:35. > :20:40.2.2 million of net rise in migration, more than the population
:20:41. > :20:48.of Birmingham, you proud of that? -- twice the population. Are you proud
:20:49. > :20:52.of that or apologising for it? We set the pace of immigration was too
:20:53. > :20:58.fat and the level was too high and it is right to bring migration down.
:20:59. > :21:03.So you think that was wrong? Overruled have been huge benefits
:21:04. > :21:09.from people that have come to Britain and built our biggest
:21:10. > :21:13.businesses. -- overall. They have become Olympic medal winners. But
:21:14. > :21:17.because the pace was too fast, that has had an impact. That was because
:21:18. > :21:21.of the lack of transitional controls from Eastern Europe and it is why we
:21:22. > :21:25.should learn from that and have sensible measures in place now, as
:21:26. > :21:31.part of what has got to be a calm debate. These are net migration
:21:32. > :21:36.figures. They don't often show the full figure. These are the
:21:37. > :21:39.immigration figures coming in. What that chart shows is that in terms of
:21:40. > :21:47.the gross number coming into this country, from the year 2000, it was
:21:48. > :21:52.half a million a year under Labour. Rising to 600,000 by the time you
:21:53. > :21:55.were out of power. A lot of people coming into these crowded islands,
:21:56. > :22:01.particularly since most of them come to London and the South East. Was
:22:02. > :22:06.that intentional? Was that out of control? Is that what you are now
:22:07. > :22:11.apologising for? What we said was that the Government got the figures
:22:12. > :22:15.wrong on the migration from Eastern Europe. If you remember particularly
:22:16. > :22:20.there was the issue of what happened with not having transitional
:22:21. > :22:24.controls in place. The Government didn't expect the number of people
:22:25. > :22:29.coming to the country to be the way it was. And so obviously mistakes
:22:30. > :22:33.were made. We have recognised that. We have also got to recognise that
:22:34. > :22:38.this is something that has happened in countries all over the world We
:22:39. > :22:41.travel and trade far more than ever. We have an increasingly globalised
:22:42. > :22:45.economy. Other European countries have been affected in the same way,
:22:46. > :22:50.and America, and other developing countries affected in the same way
:22:51. > :22:55.by the scale of migration. I am trying to work out whether the
:22:56. > :22:59.numbers were intentional or if you lost control. The key thing that we
:23:00. > :23:03.have said many times and I have already said it to you many times,
:23:04. > :23:06.Andrew, that we should have a transitional controls in place on
:23:07. > :23:12.Eastern Europe. I think that would have had an impact on them level of
:23:13. > :23:15.migration. We also should have brought in the points -based system
:23:16. > :23:19.earlier. We did bring that in towards the end and it did restrict
:23:20. > :23:22.the level of low skilled migration because there are different kinds of
:23:23. > :23:26.migration. University students coming to Britain brings in billions
:23:27. > :23:30.of pounds of investment. On the other hand, low skilled migration
:23:31. > :23:36.can have a serious impact on the jobs market, pay levels and so on at
:23:37. > :23:40.the low skilled end of the labour market. We have to distinguish
:23:41. > :23:44.between different kinds of migration. You keep trying to excuse
:23:45. > :23:48.the figures by talking about the lack of transitional controls. Can
:23:49. > :23:53.we skip the chart I was going to go to? The next one. Under Labour, this
:23:54. > :23:59.is the source of where migrants came from. The main source was not the
:24:00. > :24:05.accession countries or the remainder of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were
:24:06. > :24:08.from the African Commonwealth, and the Indian subcontinent.
:24:09. > :24:11.Overwhelmingly, these numbers are nothing to do with transitional
:24:12. > :24:16.controls. You can control that immigration entirely because they
:24:17. > :24:21.are not part of the EU. Was that a mistake? First of all, the big
:24:22. > :24:27.increase was in the accession groups. Not according to the chart.
:24:28. > :24:30.In terms of the increase, the changes that happened. Secondly in
:24:31. > :24:34.answer to the question that you just asked me, we should also have
:24:35. > :24:39.introduced the points -based system at an earlier stage. Thirdly there
:24:40. > :24:42.has been a big increase in the number of university students coming
:24:43. > :24:45.to Britain and they have brought billions of pounds of investment. At
:24:46. > :24:50.the moment the Government is not distinguishing, it is just using the
:24:51. > :24:53.figure of net migration. And that is starting to go up again, as you said
:24:54. > :24:58.in the introduction, but the problem is that it treats all kinds of
:24:59. > :25:03.migration is aimed. It does not address illegal immigration, which
:25:04. > :25:07.is a problem, but it treats university graduates coming to
:25:08. > :25:12.Britain in the same way as low skilled workers. If Labour get back
:25:13. > :25:15.into power, is it your ambition to bring down immigration? We have
:25:16. > :25:21.already said it is too high and we would support measures to bring it
:25:22. > :25:24.down. You would bring it down? There is something called student visas,
:25:25. > :25:29.which is not included in the figures, and it does not include
:25:30. > :25:40.university graduates, and it is a figure that has increased
:25:41. > :25:43.substantially in recent years. They come for short-term study but they
:25:44. > :25:46.do not even have to prove that they come for a college course. They do
:25:47. > :25:48.not even have to have a place to come. Those visas should be
:25:49. > :25:50.restricted to prevent abuse of the system and that is in line with a
:25:51. > :25:53.recommendation from the Inspectorate and that is the kind of practical
:25:54. > :25:58.thing that we could do. Can you give us a ballpark figure of how much
:25:59. > :26:02.immigration would fall? You have seen the mess that Theresa May has
:26:03. > :26:07.got into with her figures. She made a target that it is clear to me that
:26:08. > :26:29.she will not meet. I think that is right. She will not meet it. Can you
:26:30. > :26:32.give as a ballpark figure by which we can judge you? If she had been
:26:33. > :26:34.more sensible and taken more time to listen to experts and decide what
:26:35. > :26:38.measures should be targeted, then she would not be in this mess. You
:26:39. > :26:40.cannot give me a figure? She has chosen net migration. She has set a
:26:41. > :26:43.target, without ifs and buts. I think it is important not to have a
:26:44. > :26:45.massive gap between the rhetoric and reality. Not to make promises on
:26:46. > :26:50.numbers which are not responsible. OK, you won't give me a figure.
:26:51. > :26:54.Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,00 front line police jobs have gone
:26:55. > :26:59.since 2010 but crime continues to fall. 7% down last year alone. When
:27:00. > :27:05.you told the Labour conference that you do not cut crime by cutting the
:27:06. > :27:07.police, you were wrong. I think the Government is being very complacent
:27:08. > :27:12.about what is happening to crime. Crime patterns are changing. There
:27:13. > :27:18.has been an exponential increase, and that is in the words of the
:27:19. > :27:25.police, in online crime. We have also seen, for example, domestic
:27:26. > :27:29.violence going up, but prosecutions dropping dramatically. There is a
:27:30. > :27:34.serious impact as a result of not having 10,000 police in place. You
:27:35. > :27:38.have talked about the exponential increase in online and economic
:27:39. > :27:45.crime. If those are the big growth areas, why have bobbies on the beat?
:27:46. > :27:48.That would make no difference. It is about an approach to policing that
:27:49. > :27:51.has been incredibly successful over many years, which Labour introduced,
:27:52. > :27:56.which is neighbourhood policing in the community is working hard with
:27:57. > :27:59.communities to prevent crime. People like to see bobbies on the beat but
:28:00. > :28:05.have you got any evidence that it leads to a reduction in crime?
:28:06. > :28:09.Interestingly, the Lords Stevens commission that we set up, they have
:28:10. > :28:12.reported this week and it has been the equivalent of a Royal
:28:13. > :28:17.commission, looking at the number of people involved in it. Their strong
:28:18. > :28:21.recommendation was that this is about preventing crime but also
:28:22. > :28:24.respectful law and order, working with communities, and so they
:28:25. > :28:28.strongly took the view with all of their expertise and the 30 different
:28:29. > :28:31.universities that they have involved with it, that on the basis of all
:28:32. > :28:37.that analysis, the right thing was to keep bobbies on the beat and not
:28:38. > :28:42.push them cars. Instinctively you would think it was true. More
:28:43. > :28:46.visible policing, less crime. But in all the criminology work, I cannot
:28:47. > :28:51.find the evidence. There is competing work about why there has
:28:52. > :28:55.been a 20 year drop in overall crime and everybody has different opinions
:28:56. > :28:58.on why that has happened. The point about neighbourhood policing is that
:28:59. > :29:05.it is broader than crime-fighting. It is about prevention and community
:29:06. > :29:10.safety. Improving the well-being of communities as well. Will you keep
:29:11. > :29:15.the elected Police Commissioners? Big sigh! What the report said was
:29:16. > :29:21.that the system is flawed. We raised concern about this at the beginning.
:29:22. > :29:27.You will remember at the elections, Theresa May's flagship policy, at
:29:28. > :29:30.the elections they cost ?100 million and there was 15% turnout. You have
:29:31. > :29:37.to have a system of accountability at the police. Three options were
:29:38. > :29:42.presented, all of which are forms. So you have to have reform. It is
:29:43. > :29:52.not whether to have reformed, it is which of those options is the best
:29:53. > :29:57.way to do it. The commission set out a series of options, and I thought
:29:58. > :30:02.that the preferable approach would be collaboration and voluntary
:30:03. > :30:07.mergers. We know they won't volunteer. There have been some
:30:08. > :30:11.collaboration is taking place. I think the issues with police and
:30:12. > :30:15.crime commissioners have fragmented things and made it harder to get
:30:16. > :30:19.collaboration between police forces. Everybody is asking this
:30:20. > :30:27.question, just before you go. What is it like living with a nightmare?
:30:28. > :30:36.Who does all the cooking, so I can't complain! Says Miliband people are
:30:37. > :30:39.wrong, he is a dream cook? He is! In a speech this week, Boris Johnson
:30:40. > :30:43.praised greed and envy as essential for economic progress, and that has
:30:44. > :30:48.got tongues wagging. What is the Mayor of London up to? What is his
:30:49. > :30:58.game plan? Does he even have a game plan and does he know if he has one?
:30:59. > :31:02.Flash photography coming up. Boris. In many ways I can leave it there.
:31:03. > :31:13.You'd know who I meant. And if you didn't, the unruly mop of blonde
:31:14. > :31:16.hair would tell you, the language. Ping-pong was invented on the dining
:31:17. > :31:34.tables of England. Somehow pulling off the ridiculous to the sublime.
:31:35. > :31:36.It is going to go zoink off the scale! But often having to speed
:31:37. > :31:41.away from the whiff-whaff of scandal. Boris, are you going to
:31:42. > :31:45.save your manage? There's always been a question about
:31:46. > :31:48.him and his as role as mayor and another prized position, as hinted
:31:49. > :31:54.to the Tory faithful this year at conference, discussing former French
:31:55. > :32:01.Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain Juppe. He told me he was going to be
:32:02. > :32:06.the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he may have been mayor well he was
:32:07. > :32:13.Prime Minister, it is the kind of thing they do in funds -- AvD in
:32:14. > :32:22.France. It is a good idea, if you ask me. But is it a joke? He is much
:32:23. > :32:26.more ambitious. Boris wants to be Prime Minister more than anything
:32:27. > :32:33.else. Perhaps more than he wants to be made of London. The ball came
:32:34. > :32:39.loose from the back of the scrum. Of course it would give great thing to
:32:40. > :32:44.have a crack at, but it is not going to happen. He might be right. First,
:32:45. > :32:47.the Conservatives have a leader another Old Etonian, Oxford,
:32:48. > :32:53.Bullingdon chap and he has the job Boris might like a crack at. What do
:32:54. > :32:58.you do with a problem like Boris? It is one of the great paradoxes of
:32:59. > :33:04.Tory politics that for Boris Johnson to succeed, David Cameron must feel.
:33:05. > :33:08.Boris needs David Cameron to lose so that he can stand a chance of
:33:09. > :33:11.becoming loser. -- becoming leader. And disloyalty is punished by
:33:12. > :33:13.Conservatives. Boris knows the man who brought down Margaret Thatcher.
:33:14. > :33:20.Michael Heseltine, who Boris replaced as MP for Henley, never got
:33:21. > :33:30.her job. In 1986, she took on the member for Henley, always a risky
:33:31. > :33:33.venture. And why might he make such a jibe, because he's won two more
:33:34. > :33:43.elections than the PM. Conservatives like a winner. Boris, against Robert
:33:44. > :33:52.expectations, has won the Mayor of London job twice. -- public. He
:33:53. > :33:55.might've built a following with the grassroots but he's on shakier
:33:56. > :34:03.ground with many Tory MPs, who see him as a selfish clown, unfit for
:34:04. > :34:06.high office. And besides, he's not the only one with king-sized
:34:07. > :34:13.ambition, and Boris and George are not close, however much they may
:34:14. > :34:19.profess unity. There is probably some Chinese expression for a
:34:20. > :34:23.complete and perfect harmony. Ying and yang. But in plain black and
:34:24. > :34:27.white, if Boris has a plan, it's one he can't instigate, and if David
:34:28. > :34:32.Cameron is PM in 2016, it may not be implementable. He'd need a seat and
:34:33. > :34:38.it wouldn't be plain sailing if he did make a leadership bid. My
:34:39. > :34:43.leadership chances, I think I may have told you before, or about as
:34:44. > :34:48.good as my chances of ying reincarnated as a baked bean. Which
:34:49. > :34:51.is probably quite high. So if the job you want with Brown-esque desire
:34:52. > :34:59.is potentially never to be yours what do you do? He is, of course, an
:35:00. > :35:04.American citizen by birth. He was born in New York public hospital,
:35:05. > :35:09.and so he is qualified to be President of the United States. And
:35:10. > :35:15.you don't need an IQ over 16 to find that the tiniest bit scary.
:35:16. > :35:21.Giles Dilnot reporting. Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates are
:35:22. > :35:26.here. Is there a plan for Boris and if so, what is it? I think the plan
:35:27. > :35:31.is for him to say what he thinks the Tory activist base wants to hear
:35:32. > :35:37.just now. He knows that in 18 months time they can disown it. I think he
:35:38. > :35:43.is wrong, the way the speech has played has a limited number of
:35:44. > :35:46.people. He has cross-party appeal. He has now reconfirmed to people
:35:47. > :35:52.that the Tories are the nasty party and they have been pretending to be
:35:53. > :35:57.modernised. Is it not the truth that he needs David Cameron to lose the
:35:58. > :36:04.2015 election to become leader in this decade? It is very interesting
:36:05. > :36:08.watching his fortunes wax and wane. It always seems to happen in inverse
:36:09. > :36:13.proportion to how well David Cameron is doing in front of his own party.
:36:14. > :36:17.There is no small element of strategy about what we are doing
:36:18. > :36:22.here. The problem with Boris is that he's popular with the country, but
:36:23. > :36:29.not with the party's MPs and its hard-core supporters. This was an
:36:30. > :36:34.appeal to the grassroots this week. He is not the only potential
:36:35. > :36:39.candidate. If we were in some kind of circumstance where Boris was a
:36:40. > :36:48.runner to replace Mr Cameron, who with the other front the? I think it
:36:49. > :36:54.will skip a generation. The recent intake was ideological assertive. I
:36:55. > :36:58.do not buy the idea that it will be Jeremy Hunt against Michael Gove. I
:36:59. > :37:06.then, that generation will be tainted by being in government. It
:37:07. > :37:13.is interesting, what is he trying to pull? He is ideological. He does not
:37:14. > :37:17.believe in many things, but he believes in a few things quite
:37:18. > :37:23.deeply, and one is the idea of competition, both in business and
:37:24. > :37:30.academic selection. He has never been squeamish about expressing
:37:31. > :37:35.that. We do make mistakes sometimes, assuming he is entirely political.
:37:36. > :37:40.Look at all the Northern voters who will not vote for the Tories even
:37:41. > :37:46.though they are socially or economic the Conservatives. I do not think he
:37:47. > :37:53.helps. Who in the Tories would help? That is a tough question. To
:37:54. > :38:03.reason me has also been speaking to the hard right. -- Theresa May. I
:38:04. > :38:06.have been out with him at night. It is like dining with a film star.
:38:07. > :38:13.People are queueing up to speak to him. Educational selection is one of
:38:14. > :38:15.the few areas that he can offer. He has gone liberal on immigration, as
:38:16. > :38:38.are made of London would have to. Yes, you are watching the Sunday
:38:39. > :38:42.Politics for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire on the north midlands. Coming up: As
:38:43. > :38:49.the Chancellor promises to cut green taxes on our energy bills, the
:38:50. > :38:51.industry claims it will put jobs in jeopardy and could lead to
:38:52. > :38:54.blackouts. We will also discuss to what extent
:38:55. > :38:58.the Co`op brand has been tarnished by the Paul Flowers scandal with our
:38:59. > :39:09.guests today, Labour MP John Mann, Liberal Democrat David Ward and MEP
:39:10. > :39:13.Godfrey Bloom. So the Chancellor looks set to cut
:39:14. > :39:16.many green taxes in his Autumn statement on Thursday. So`called
:39:17. > :39:20.green levies add more than ?100 a year to the typical household energy
:39:21. > :39:23.bill. But the proposals have prompted a backlash from the
:39:24. > :39:26.renewable energy lobby, who say that without green taxes, thousands of
:39:27. > :39:41.new jobs could be lost across Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, and we
:39:42. > :39:44.could be facing blackouts. In this corner of East Yorkshire,
:39:45. > :39:48.many people have become used to living in the shadow of wind
:39:49. > :39:53.turbines. At the boss of this caravan repair business is not
:39:54. > :40:02.happy. Peter Mills has just received his latest energy bill, and wants to
:40:03. > :40:06.know why it is so high. None of us householders or business premises
:40:07. > :40:12.see anything from this tax that we are being forced to pay. It is not a
:40:13. > :40:17.case of being able to opt out if we want. We just keep on paying, and I
:40:18. > :40:24.don't think anybody will gain from it and I don't think the government
:40:25. > :40:27.knows where the green tax is going. According to the Department of
:40:28. > :40:30.Energy and Climate Change, consumers are charged a range of green levies
:40:31. > :40:37.on their bills, designed to reduce the UK's carbon emissions. It adds
:40:38. > :40:42.up to ?112 a year for the typical household. Of course, there is a
:40:43. > :40:48.different side to this story. Leading figures in the Win your bill
:40:49. > :40:54.energy sector claim that green taxes are vital if thousands of new jobs
:40:55. > :40:58.are to be created on the Humber `` figures in the renewable energy
:40:59. > :41:04.sector. Off the east coast, there is massive potential. Because of that,
:41:05. > :41:08.in the east of England, there was the opportunity to develop a world
:41:09. > :41:12.beating industry, exporting to many parts of the world as a result.
:41:13. > :41:20.There was a huge prize on offer if we can get this policy right. This
:41:21. > :41:26.week, plans for a giant offshore wind farm in the Bristol Channel
:41:27. > :41:30.were shelved after the German energy firm RW is that it was not the right
:41:31. > :41:34.time for the project. Some fear other energy firms could start to
:41:35. > :41:41.think twice about developments off the east coast. This is not just
:41:42. > :41:44.about the renewable addenda, it is about providing energy. If we don't
:41:45. > :41:50.do this right, lights could go out. The government needs to be careful
:41:51. > :41:56.about changing things on these parts of the energy bill. Business leaders
:41:57. > :42:01.hoping to attract new investment into the green energy sector say it
:42:02. > :42:07.is vital that the chancellor sends out the right message in his Autumn
:42:08. > :42:12.statement on Thursday. Will are in the best place in the UK, if not in
:42:13. > :42:20.Europe, to make the best of investment in offshore renewables.
:42:21. > :42:24.So help us out, Mr Osborne. With Labour pledging to freeze energy
:42:25. > :42:29.bills if they win the next election, the chancellor is under
:42:30. > :42:34.pressure to secure a better deal for customers while ensuring our lights
:42:35. > :42:38.they own in future. So, Godfrey Bloom, are we facing
:42:39. > :42:43.blackouts if green energy taxes are cut? We are certainly facing
:42:44. > :42:49.blackouts, as I told this programme in 2006, but not for those reasons.
:42:50. > :42:52.We have a shambolic energy policy . Wind turbines don't work. Offshore
:42:53. > :42:57.wind turbines are the most expensive source of energy the world has ever
:42:58. > :43:01.seen. The whole thing is nonsense. We are putting billions of pounds of
:43:02. > :43:06.subsidies into wind turbines. Nobody would manufacture to them without
:43:07. > :43:12.the subsidies. A huge power station is now burning wood shipped in from
:43:13. > :43:17.Canada. Yes, we will be seeing blackouts in 2015, as I
:43:18. > :43:22.anticipated, but not for these reasons. David Ward, what message is
:43:23. > :43:26.the government sending out to the renewables industry at the moment?
:43:27. > :43:31.At the moment, we have 18 months to go before a general election and
:43:32. > :43:35.there will be increasing opportunities for Lib Dems and the
:43:36. > :43:39.Conservatives to differentiate themselves. The Lib Dems are
:43:40. > :43:44.obviously far greener. The Tory party have pretended they were
:43:45. > :43:49.green. They are not really, and that is becoming evident. John Mann, is
:43:50. > :43:54.it right that families have to pay ?112 a year on top of their energy
:43:55. > :43:58.bills in green levies? Lee we should nationalise the electricity
:43:59. > :44:04.companies. But I totally disagree with Mr Bloom. He wants us to be
:44:05. > :44:11.reliant on Russian gas and Chinese coal in the future. I don't. I want
:44:12. > :44:14.is to be self`sufficient in energy. Green energy is critical to this
:44:15. > :44:20.country being self`sufficient and not relying on other countries for
:44:21. > :44:24.our energy, which will cost us a fortune and also endanger our
:44:25. > :44:30.national`security. Godfrey Bloom, are we at the mercy of Russian gas
:44:31. > :44:37.suppliers? It is funny that he says that. I don't remember saying that.
:44:38. > :44:41.We have our own gas and shale gas. We have coal, and we should follow
:44:42. > :44:48.the trail the Americans have beaten. Their energy prices are half
:44:49. > :44:52.those in this country. We have the most expensive electricity in the
:44:53. > :44:59.world, even more than Germany. It is our policy that is at risk. It has
:45:00. > :45:02.been a shambles, and I am surprised that Mr man, representing a
:45:03. > :45:08.working`class community, can treat them in such a cavalier manner. Are
:45:09. > :45:14.you treating them in a colour cavalier manner? Mr Bloom can say
:45:15. > :45:16.what he wants, but Germany, with a massive amount of renewables, that
:45:17. > :45:23.is why they are getting cheaper prices than us. I am not having this
:45:24. > :45:27.live from him that we have our own gas and oil. We are importing it,
:45:28. > :45:31.and the danger is that we become more reliant on the Russians for
:45:32. > :45:34.imported gas and oil in the future. Like other countries in Eastern
:45:35. > :45:40.Europe, we will end up being in hock to the Russians, who will pump
:45:41. > :45:44.prices up. We need to become self`sufficient. That is why the
:45:45. > :45:47.offshore wind farms on the Humber estuary are a vital part of what we
:45:48. > :45:54.need in the future. That will keep prices down in Britain. To keep
:45:55. > :45:58.prices down in the long term, we need to freeze them and squeeze the
:45:59. > :46:09.profits of these energy companies who are ripping us all off. Tim, if
:46:10. > :46:19.you look at the dogger bank scheme, think of the amount of jobs that
:46:20. > :46:26.will create as it is put together. That will give us 10% of our
:46:27. > :46:34.electricity needs. You asked me earlier, what is the message 's we
:46:35. > :46:37.must have a concerted view on moving forward on green energy. You are
:46:38. > :46:43.talking about billions of pounds of investment. You are not getting
:46:44. > :46:50.agreement from the Conservatives. We are not getting cooperation from the
:46:51. > :46:54.coalition government, because the Conservatives are going soft on it.
:46:55. > :47:00.It is not popular with many on the right wing, like Godfrey. But across
:47:01. > :47:06.the House of Commons, all parties have a common consensus, with a
:47:07. > :47:13.majority in favour of green energy. What do you say to areas of high
:47:14. > :47:17.unemployment that need these jobs? They are bogus jobs. Let's look at
:47:18. > :47:21.Germany and the Iberian peninsular. They are rushing away from the
:47:22. > :47:26.renewable sources of energy to go back into coal as an emergency
:47:27. > :47:29.process because their chemical and automobile industries are talking
:47:30. > :47:34.about moving to America and China. These jobs are bogus. If you ask the
:47:35. > :47:38.people of Hull and the East Riding whether they would sooner have VAT
:47:39. > :47:41.of 5% and their business rates halved and their national insurance
:47:42. > :47:45.rates for employees halved, they would sooner have that. They might
:47:46. > :47:49.as well build steam engines and throw them into the sea. Offshore
:47:50. > :47:53.energy is 12 times the cost of conventional power. It is
:47:54. > :48:00.unsustainable, add it is time people admitted it. There has been a huge
:48:01. > :48:04.mistake. Many will disagree. Now, to what extent has the Co`op
:48:05. > :48:06.brand been damaged by the Paul Flowers scandal? The fallout from
:48:07. > :48:09.the revelations about the former Labour councillor and Methodist
:48:10. > :48:11.minister from Bradford continues, as do the questions about his
:48:12. > :48:26.controversial appointment as chairman of the Co`op Bank.
:48:27. > :48:30.This was planned as a spectacular tribute to 150 years of retail and
:48:31. > :48:34.banking success for a giant organisation still owned by its
:48:35. > :48:38.members. It is just two weeks since the Queen opened the Co`op's new
:48:39. > :48:42.?100 million headquarters in Manchester, but the celebrations
:48:43. > :48:47.were totally overshadowed. The announcement of massive losses at
:48:48. > :48:49.its banking arms, questions over the competence of its chairman, Paul
:48:50. > :48:55.Flowers, then astonishing allegations in national newspapers
:48:56. > :48:58.of a drug fuelled personal life. Now the Co`op says it will not be paying
:48:59. > :49:02.the dividend this year. Last year, it paid out ?8 million to members,
:49:03. > :49:06.but this year it says it can't afford that and is replacing it with
:49:07. > :49:12.food vouchers. So if the Co`op can't even perform that kind of advantage
:49:13. > :49:20.to its members, is there really a place for it in modern retailing and
:49:21. > :49:27.banking? I think it will survive. The mutual idea is one of the best
:49:28. > :49:33.business ideas there is. They are a bit old`fashioned. It has gone down
:49:34. > :49:36.in my estimation. The ayes to the right Michael McGowan is a former
:49:37. > :49:43.MEP and leading cooperative member in Yorkshire. He says the problem is
:49:44. > :49:49.Rudy punishment who took big risks. Big risks were made about the
:49:50. > :49:53.merging with Tanya building society and the proposed acquisition of
:49:54. > :50:00.Lloyds bank branches, which has cost a great deal of money. This is
:50:01. > :50:06.nothing to do with the failure of the cooperative is this model or a
:50:07. > :50:12.failure of mutual principles. It is a failure of governance. I worked
:50:13. > :50:16.for the bank for four years. So why was the Co`op Bank landed with a
:50:17. > :50:21.chairman who is total experience, as he admitted to astonished MPs last
:50:22. > :50:24.month, was as a junior clerk after leaving school? Paul Flowers was a
:50:25. > :50:29.Labour councillor in Bradford and had been a Co`op trustee, but
:50:30. > :50:33.professionally, he was a Methodist minister. How could it come to pass
:50:34. > :50:37.that Paul Flowers, who on any analysis did not have the expertise
:50:38. > :50:45.to do that job, was appointed? What was the regulator doing? There are
:50:46. > :50:51.only two explanations. One is a kind of incompetence of the regulator
:50:52. > :50:56.that was virtually criminal. Or alternatively, there was some kind
:50:57. > :50:59.of undue influence. We need to get to the bottom of that, because it is
:51:00. > :51:04.a scandal. The financial services authority told us they had
:51:05. > :51:07.interviewed Paul Flowers, recognised his professional inexperience and
:51:08. > :51:14.insisted on the appointment of two deputy chairman, one with banking
:51:15. > :51:17.experience and one with insurance experience. All this leaves an
:51:18. > :51:22.organisation held up over generations, based on service to the
:51:23. > :51:26.people by being owned by the people, facing issues of
:51:27. > :51:30.credibility. The Co`op says it is working to overcome its
:51:31. > :51:34.difficulties. Recent retelling success and growth is continuing and
:51:35. > :51:37.appropriate action is being taken to meet its losses at the bank. But
:51:38. > :51:43.with an ongoing Treasury enquiry, questions will be asked for some
:51:44. > :51:47.time to come. Let me go straight to John Mann. You
:51:48. > :51:51.sit on the Treasury select committee and you questioned Paul Flowers when
:51:52. > :51:58.he was chairman of Co`op Bank. With events at that bank have been any
:51:59. > :52:02.different, had Labour been in power? It is unbelievable that the
:52:03. > :52:07.regulators paid to check out these people failed to spot anything about
:52:08. > :52:12.him and that the Co`op itself moved away from the traditional Co`op
:52:13. > :52:17.model into trying to speculate and accumulate, buying other businesses
:52:18. > :52:22.with, as has been said to our committee several times, the
:52:23. > :52:28.government and a minister called Mark Hoban who worked for George
:52:29. > :52:31.Osborne, the tree `` cheerleader, cheering them on every week. It
:52:32. > :52:37.should never have happened. My grandfather was in the Co`op for
:52:38. > :52:42.over 40 years. I was brought up in the Co`op. It is a crying shame, a
:52:43. > :52:47.blight on the whole of our country, that this great institution has such
:52:48. > :52:50.big problems. David, you were a Bradford councillor with Paul
:52:51. > :52:57.Flowers. What did you know about this man and his experience? It is
:52:58. > :53:02.true to say that some eyebrows were raised when we heard that Paul had
:53:03. > :53:05.got this position. He had been associated with the Co`op in
:53:06. > :53:12.different roles beforehand, so he was known within the Co`op. Most of
:53:13. > :53:18.us who knew him were surprised that he would get such an important
:53:19. > :53:23.position. I think the brand is still strong. I still have the Co`op card
:53:24. > :53:28.in my wallet. That side of it will not lose the faith of people. This
:53:29. > :53:34.is not just about the Co`op anyway, because many of the banks that were
:53:35. > :53:42.doing scandalous things over the last ten years had people whose
:53:43. > :53:46.lives were in anchoring. The fact that you had a banking qualification
:53:47. > :53:51.was not a guarantee that you were not going to do scandalous things.
:53:52. > :53:58.Did you personally know why Mr Flowers stepped down as a Bradford
:53:59. > :54:05.councillor? I did not. I left in 2010. I think it occurred after that
:54:06. > :54:10.in 2011, so I was not personally aware of that. But having spoken to
:54:11. > :54:15.some of my colleagues, they were sure there were rumours flying
:54:16. > :54:21.around. So Labour councillors did no? Well, we know the leader of the
:54:22. > :54:26.group knew. Godfrey Bloom, what is your take on this? I worked for 20
:54:27. > :54:33.years in the mutual sector, and I am a big believer in mutuality. I
:54:34. > :54:38.worked on the investment side, and I entirely agree with Mr Mann. This
:54:39. > :54:44.has been mismanaged. It is scandalous. It has damaged the
:54:45. > :54:51.concept of mutuality, which a lot of people believe in, regardless of
:54:52. > :54:55.their backgrounds. But the financial services authority is run by
:54:56. > :55:02.amateurs as well. I have been a scourge of these henchmen on huge
:55:03. > :55:06.salaries . It comes as no surprise. I agree with David that there has
:55:07. > :55:13.been plenty of incompetence. Some of them need to go to prison. This is
:55:14. > :55:15.John 's specialist era, but we have had the financial services 2012 act
:55:16. > :55:20.and there is a bill going in front of the Lords which is about banking
:55:21. > :55:27.reform and splitting of the investment and traditional banking.
:55:28. > :55:31.Whether that will change, I would hope it will improve. John, do you
:55:32. > :55:37.have any confidence in the regulation of the banks? Have we
:55:38. > :55:43.just rearranged the Titanic? B yes, it is bankers regulating bankers,
:55:44. > :55:48.and that is a fundamental problem. If this was any other industry, it
:55:49. > :55:52.would have gone bankrupt. If it was any other part of life, people would
:55:53. > :55:57.have gone to prison. Bankers, like politicians, should not be some kind
:55:58. > :56:00.of special breed who are allowed to get away with it. If we don't do
:56:01. > :56:07.something about it and hold them to account, we will see these scandals
:56:08. > :56:10.continue. I fear for the future of the Co`op, not just because people
:56:11. > :56:16.don't like the brand. I love the brand. But today, the Co`op branch
:56:17. > :56:24.in Worksop has closed. How much more can they bear financially? What was
:56:25. > :56:33.the government doing with George Osborne encouraging them? To try and
:56:34. > :56:36.buy branches from Lloyds? He has got questions to answer. More to come on
:56:37. > :56:38.this, no doubt. Let's get more of the week's
:56:39. > :56:52.political news now. Louise Martin has our round`up in 60 seconds.
:56:53. > :56:56.Boston in Lincolnshire, where 60% of its population are now from Eastern
:56:57. > :56:59.Europe. As the prime minister announces tougher rules for EU
:57:00. > :57:08.immigrants to claim benefits, many here say they are being unfairly
:57:09. > :57:15.portrayed the and politicians. My Romanian friends here are all social
:57:16. > :57:18.workers and nurses, good people. As anger grows at rising utility bills,
:57:19. > :57:22.Yorkshire water announces it will peg its price rises to the rate of
:57:23. > :57:27.inflation for the next five years, even though legally, it could charge
:57:28. > :57:30.more to pay for investment in infrastructure. And controversy over
:57:31. > :57:35.whether reducing speeds on our roads is helping save lives or a
:57:36. > :57:38.moneymaking trick by the authorities. No guesses for them
:57:39. > :57:45.raised the issue. Speeding does not kill. What kills people is driving
:57:46. > :57:53.with undue care and attention, dangerous driving, driving like an
:57:54. > :57:59.idiot. David Ward, are you happy with the
:58:00. > :58:06.government's latest crackdown on immigration, this plan to limit
:58:07. > :58:09.benefits to migrants? I am worried about the immigration hysteria that
:58:10. > :58:16.is taking place. Nobody wants illegal in and is, and we need to
:58:17. > :58:23.deal with them `` illegal immigrants. But I am worried that it
:58:24. > :58:27.is all being banded together and any migrants seem to be under attack. I
:58:28. > :58:34.am angry with the comments being made about the Roma community. By
:58:35. > :58:40.your own party leader? Indeed, and I have spoken to Nick about this. We
:58:41. > :58:42.have a difference of opinion. But the comments of David Blunkett in
:58:43. > :58:49.particular were potentially dangerous. At the last election,
:58:50. > :58:52.Nick wanted an amnesty on illegal immigrant is. And Boris wants an
:58:53. > :59:01.amnesty now, so it is amazing how the world turns. That was a good
:59:02. > :59:07.idea, to get people off the black market and into paid employment and
:59:08. > :59:12.paying taxes and so on. But it was difficult to explain that to people.
:59:13. > :59:16.Godfrey, what did you make of the Hungarian Commissioner's comments
:59:17. > :59:20.that we are now seen as a nasty country? That is just propaganda. We
:59:21. > :59:25.don't actually control our own orders, which means we don't control
:59:26. > :59:29.our immigration policy. If you go to South Yorkshire and Sheffield, you
:59:30. > :59:34.will find there is over 30% youth unemployment, and the indigenous
:59:35. > :59:37.population are saying, why are we letting these people in when there
:59:38. > :59:41.aren't enough jobs for us? Until we start answering these questions as a
:59:42. > :59:46.nation, we are building up serious trouble for the future. It is very
:59:47. > :59:50.nasty in certain parts of this country, and the people we have let
:59:51. > :59:56.in are not good, hard`working Poles like the family I married into, they
:59:57. > :00:00.are suspicious people. Many are still blaming Labour's decision to
:00:01. > :00:05.open the gates to Eastern Europe in 2004. Do you think the party will
:00:06. > :00:11.have trouble with this issue? That should not have been done in my
:00:12. > :00:15.view. But this commission keeps plaguing me with phone calls because
:00:16. > :00:19.I have told him to sort out the problems in his own country, where
:00:20. > :00:24.there is horrendous racism and anti`Semitism, with Jewish
:00:25. > :00:28.communities fleeing from Hungary and the Roma community is being attacked
:00:29. > :00:32.in the streets. He needs to do his job and sort out the problems in his
:00:33. > :00:35.own country. We can't have his people being attacked on the street
:00:36. > :00:42.and people being forced to flee. That is no civilised way to live in
:00:43. > :00:45.any country. I want to congratulate you for saying that, because
:00:46. > :00:50.everybody is talking about the benefits and a hospital treatment
:00:51. > :00:55.people are coming for, but we need to look at the push factors. Why are
:00:56. > :00:58.people coming here? Because of the racism they face in their own
:00:59. > :01:02.countries. We need to put pressure on some of those European countries,
:01:03. > :01:06.which are almost using a sort of apartheid system towards the Roma.
:01:07. > :01:16.Godfrey Bloom, where are you going to stand on this? I will be standing
:01:17. > :01:20.in my Euro constituency, so it will definitely be Yorkshire. I knew you
:01:21. > :01:24.would come back to politics. That's it from us. Thanks to our
:01:25. > :01:26.guests, John Mann, David Ward and Godfrey Bloom. Now back to Andrew
:01:27. > :01:41.Neil in London. that. That is all we have time for.
:01:42. > :01:47.Thank you. What rabbit has George Osborne got up his sleeve? And
:01:48. > :01:54.what's David Cameron up to in China? All questions for The Week Ahead. To
:01:55. > :02:02.help the panel led, we are joined by Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP. Welcome to
:02:03. > :02:06.the Sunday Politics. Why has the government been unable to move the
:02:07. > :02:10.agenda and to the broad economic recovery, and allowed the agenda to
:02:11. > :02:15.stay on Labour's ground of energy prices and living standards? Energy
:02:16. > :02:19.has been a big issue over the last few months but the autumn state and
:02:20. > :02:23.will be a wonderful opportunity to readdress where we are fighting the
:02:24. > :02:29.ground, the good economic news that we delivered. If you look at where
:02:30. > :02:33.Labour were earlier this year, people were saying they would they 5
:02:34. > :02:43.million people unemployed. They were saying that there should be a plan
:02:44. > :02:47.B. He is not in the Labour Party? Elements of the left were suggesting
:02:48. > :02:52.it. Peter Hain told me it would be up to 3 million people. Danny
:02:53. > :02:57.Blanchflower said it would be 5 million people. So we have got to
:02:58. > :03:03.get the economy back to the centre of the debate? Yes, the game we were
:03:04. > :03:06.playing was about the economy. That was the central fighting ground of
:03:07. > :03:11.the political debate. We were winning that battle. Labour have
:03:12. > :03:16.cleverly shifted it onto the cost of living. It is essential that the
:03:17. > :03:27.government, that George, talks about the economy. That has been its great
:03:28. > :03:29.success. I do not think this has been a week of admitting that Labour
:03:30. > :03:37.was right, plain cigarettes packaging, other issues. If you look
:03:38. > :03:43.at the big picture, where we are with the economy, we have the
:03:44. > :03:47.fastest growing economy in the G-7. Despite Labour's predictions, none
:03:48. > :03:53.of this has happened, none of the triple dip has happened. The British
:03:54. > :03:58.economy is on a good fitting. That is a good story for the government
:03:59. > :04:01.to bat on. You say that people have stopped talking about the economic
:04:02. > :04:07.recovery, but it is worse than that, people have stopped talking about
:04:08. > :04:11.the deficit? As long as people were talking about the deficit, the
:04:12. > :04:17.Tories were trusted. But people have forgotten about it. This country
:04:18. > :04:23.still spends ?100 billion more than it raises. Yes, I am of the view
:04:24. > :04:29.that the deficit, the national debt, is the biggest question facing
:04:30. > :04:31.this generation of politicians. You are right to suggest that the
:04:32. > :04:39.Conservative Party was strong on this. That head, not deficit, is not
:04:40. > :04:44.going to come down in the foreseeable future? It is rising.
:04:45. > :04:48.This is a test that George Osborne is not going to pass. We know what
:04:49. > :04:53.is coming in the Autumn Statement, it is lots of giveaways, paying for
:04:54. > :04:58.free school meals, paying for fuel duty subsidies. We are still talking
:04:59. > :05:04.about the cost of living, not changing it actively wider economy.
:05:05. > :05:11.There might be extra money for growth but it is not clear what will
:05:12. > :05:14.happen to that. If it is time for giveaways, let's speak about Labour.
:05:15. > :05:23.I have never been a fan of giveaways. Fiscal prudence is what
:05:24. > :05:27.our watchword should be. Look at the headlines. Each time, the deficit
:05:28. > :05:32.figures, the debt figures, were always worse than predicted. This
:05:33. > :05:39.year it will be significantly better. I think that is significant.
:05:40. > :05:44.Any kind of recovery is probably better than no recovery at all. When
:05:45. > :05:49.you look at this recovery, it is basically a consumer spending boom.
:05:50. > :05:56.Consumer spending is up, business investment is way down compared with
:05:57. > :06:02.2008, and exports, despite a 20 devaluation, our flat. Let's get one
:06:03. > :06:08.thing straight, it is a recovery. Any recovery is better than no
:06:09. > :06:14.recovery. Now we can have a debate about, technical debate about the
:06:15. > :06:19.elements of the recovery. It is not technical, it is a fact. There is
:06:20. > :06:26.evidence that there is optimism in terms of what are thinking...
:06:27. > :06:31.Optimism? If I am optimistic about the economy, I am more likely to
:06:32. > :06:37.spend money and invest in business. So far you have not managed that?
:06:38. > :06:41.Exports have not done well either? Exports are not a big section of the
:06:42. > :06:48.British economy. But of course, they are important. But given where we
:06:49. > :06:53.were at the end of last year, no economist was saying that we would
:06:54. > :07:00.be in this robust position today. That is true, in terms of the
:07:01. > :07:04.overall recovery. Now the PM loves to "bang the drum abroad for British
:07:05. > :07:07.business" and he's off to China this evening with a plane-load of British
:07:08. > :07:37.business leaders. And it's not the first time. Take a look at this
:07:38. > :08:03.Well, you might not think exports unimportant, but clearly the Prime
:08:04. > :08:09.Minister and the Chancellor do. They are important, but they are not what
:08:10. > :08:13.is driving the growth at the moment. We used to talk about the need for
:08:14. > :08:18.export led recovery is, that is why the Prime Minister is going to
:08:19. > :08:23.China. Absolutely, and he's doing the right thing. Do we have any
:08:24. > :08:29.evidence that these tend of trips produce business? The main example
:08:30. > :08:34.so far is the right to trade the Chinese currency offshore. London
:08:35. > :08:40.has a kind of global primacy. London will be the offshore centre. Is that
:08:41. > :08:44.a good thing? I have no problem at all with this sort of policy. I do
:08:45. > :08:48.not think that Britain has been doing this enough compared with
:08:49. > :08:53.France and Germany in recent years. I am optimistic in the long term
:08:54. > :09:00.about this dish -- about British exports to China. China need machine
:09:01. > :09:05.tools and manufacturing products. In 20 years time, China will be buying
:09:06. > :09:11.professional groups, educational services, the things we excel at.
:09:12. > :09:16.All we need to do is consolidate our strengths, stand still and we will
:09:17. > :09:18.move forward. The worst thing we can do is reengineer the economy towards
:09:19. > :09:26.those services and away from something else. We have a lot of
:09:27. > :09:30.ground to make up, Helen? At one stage, it is no longer true, but at
:09:31. > :09:34.one stage you could say that we exported more to Ireland, a country
:09:35. > :09:43.of 4 million people, than we did to Russia, China, India, Brazil, all
:09:44. > :09:49.combined. I believe we form 1% of Chinese imports now. The problem is
:09:50. > :09:54.what you have to give up in exchange for that. It is a big problem for
:09:55. > :10:01.David Cameron's credibility that he has had to row back on his meeting
:10:02. > :10:06.with the Dalai llama. This trip we have been in the deep freeze with
:10:07. > :10:11.China for a couple of years. This trip has come at a high cost. We
:10:12. > :10:15.have had to open up the City of London to Chinese banks without much
:10:16. > :10:19.scrutiny, we have had to move the date of the Autumn Statement, and
:10:20. > :10:23.there is no mention of human rights. It is awkward to deal with that all
:10:24. > :10:31.in the name of getting up to where we were a few years ago. A month
:10:32. > :10:35.after strong anchor -- one month after Sri Lanka, where he apologised
:10:36. > :10:41.three human rights abuses, this is difficult to take. Do we have any
:10:42. > :10:46.idea what the Prime Minister hopes to do in China this time? I am not
:10:47. > :10:50.sure there is anything specific but when you go to these countries,
:10:51. > :10:55.certainly in the Middle East China, they complain, why has the Prime
:10:56. > :11:00.Minister not come to see us? That is very important. High-level
:11:01. > :11:05.delegations from other countries go to these places because the addict
:11:06. > :11:16.-- because they are important export markets. You might look at the Prime
:11:17. > :11:21.Minister playing cricket over there, and wonder, what is that for? I do
:11:22. > :11:26.not mind the Prime Minister Rajoy cricket. This is a high visibility
:11:27. > :11:32.mission, chose that politicians in Britain care. You are part of the
:11:33. > :11:36.free enterprise group. It had all sorts of things on it like tax cuts
:11:37. > :11:44.for those on middle incomes or above the 40% bracket, tax cuts worth 16
:11:45. > :11:49.billion. You will get none of that on Thursday, we are agreed? No. But
:11:50. > :11:57.he does have two budgets between now and the election and if the fiscal
:11:58. > :12:00.position is using a little bit, he may have more leeway than it looked
:12:01. > :12:06.like a couple of months ago. Yes, from a free enter prise point of
:12:07. > :12:12.view, we have looked at the tax cuts that should be looked at. The 4 p
:12:13. > :12:18.rate comes in at quite a low level for people who, in the south-east,
:12:19. > :12:24.do not feel particularly wealthy. They are spending a lot of money on
:12:25. > :12:28.commuting, energy bills. The Chancellor has been very open about
:12:29. > :12:33.championing this. He says that the 40p rate will kick in at a slightly
:12:34. > :12:38.higher rate. Labour had a bad summer and the opinion polls seem to be
:12:39. > :12:43.narrowing. Then they had a good hearty conference season. The best.
:12:44. > :12:48.Has the Labour lead solidified or increased the little, maybe up to
:12:49. > :12:52.eight points? If it is a good Autumn Statement, or the Tories start to
:12:53. > :12:58.narrow that lead by the end of the year? If they go into 2014 trailing
:12:59. > :13:03.by single digits, they cannot complain too much. That gives them
:13:04. > :13:09.18 months to chip away at Labour's lead. But do they do that chipping
:13:10. > :13:13.away by eight bidding Labour or do they let time take its course and
:13:14. > :13:17.let the economic recovery continue, maybe business investment joins
:13:18. > :13:21.consumer spending as a source of that recovery, and a year from now,
:13:22. > :13:29.household disposable income begins to rise? That is a better hope than
:13:30. > :13:32.engaging in a bidding war. Be assured, they will be highly
:13:33. > :13:35.political budgets. That's all for today. The Daily Politics is on BBC
:13:36. > :13:39.Two at midday all this week, except on Thursday when we'll start at
:13:40. > :13:41.10:45 to bring you live coverage and analysis of the Chancellor's Autumn
:13:42. > :13:45.Statement in a Daily Politics special for BBC Two and the BBC News
:13:46. > :13:48.Channel. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.