:00:40. > :00:48.Good morning, welcome. 2014 is barely under way, and the
:00:49. > :00:52.coalition is fighting over cuts. Nick Legg says Tory plans to balance
:00:53. > :00:56.the books would hit the poorest hardest. He will not say what he
:00:57. > :01:01.will cut. That is the top story. Chris Grayling called for a
:01:02. > :01:05.completely new deal with Europe as he battles will rings from the
:01:06. > :01:10.European Court of Human Rights. He joins me.
:01:11. > :01:11.Labour promises to shift house-building up a gear, but how
:01:12. > :01:23.will they On the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire
:01:24. > :01:25.and Lincolnshire, we find out why Scotland's independence referendum
:01:26. > :01:26.campaign has triggered calls for home
:01:27. > :01:26.campaign has triggered calls for be serious. Have cuts left to the
:01:27. > :01:41.service being overstretched? With me for the duration, a top trio
:01:42. > :01:45.of political pundits, Helen Lewis, Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They
:01:46. > :01:52.will be tweeting faster than France or long scoots through Paris. Nick
:01:53. > :01:56.Clegg sticks to his New Year resolution to sock it to the Tories,
:01:57. > :02:01.the is how he described Tory plans for another 12 billion of cuts on
:02:02. > :02:06.welfare after the next election You cannot say, as the Conservatives
:02:07. > :02:09.are, that we are all in it together and then say that the welfare will
:02:10. > :02:13.not make any additional contributions from their taxes if
:02:14. > :02:16.there is a Conservative government after 2015 in the ongoing effort to
:02:17. > :02:24.balance the books. We are not even going to ask that very wealthy
:02:25. > :02:29.people who have retired who have benefits, paid for by the
:02:30. > :02:33.hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a sacrifice. The Conservatives appear
:02:34. > :02:38.to be saying only the working age pork will be asked to make
:02:39. > :02:41.additional sacrifices to fill the remaining buckle in the public
:02:42. > :02:47.finances. Nick Legg eating up on the Tories
:02:48. > :02:53.a, happens almost every day. I understand it is called aggressive
:02:54. > :03:00.differentiation. Will it work for them? It has not for the past two
:03:01. > :03:04.years. This began around the time of the AV referendum campaign, that is
:03:05. > :03:09.what poisoned the relations between the parties. They have been trying
:03:10. > :03:15.to differentiation since then, they are still at barely 10% in the
:03:16. > :03:21.polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings are horrendous, so I doubt they will
:03:22. > :03:24.do much before the next election. It is interesting it has been combined
:03:25. > :03:30.with aggressive flirtation with Ed Balls and the Labour Party. There
:03:31. > :03:34.was always going to be some sort of rapprochement between them and the
:03:35. > :03:39.Labour Party, it is in the Labour Party's interests, and it is intent
:03:40. > :03:43.macro's interests, not to be defined as somebody who can only do deals
:03:44. > :03:47.with the centre-right. A colleague of yours, Helen, told me there was
:03:48. > :03:53.more talk behind closed doors in the Labour Party high command, they have
:03:54. > :03:57.to think about winning the election in terms of being the largest party,
:03:58. > :04:01.but not necessarily an overall majority. There is a feeling it was
:04:02. > :04:05.foolish before the last election not to have any thought about what a
:04:06. > :04:10.coalition might be, but the language has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I
:04:11. > :04:18.cannot deal with this man, but now, I have to be prismatic, it is about
:04:19. > :04:21.principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick Clegg had specifically said that Ed
:04:22. > :04:26.Balls was the man in politics that he hated. He said that was just a
:04:27. > :04:33.joke. Of course, it is about principles, not people! When Ed
:04:34. > :04:37.Balls said those nice things about Nick Clegg, he said, I understood
:04:38. > :04:42.the need to get a credible deficit reduction programme, although he
:04:43. > :04:45.said Nick Clegg went too far. The thing about Nick Clegg, he feels
:04:46. > :04:51.liberated, he bears the wounds from the early days of the coalition and
:04:52. > :04:56.maybe those winds will haunt him all the way to the general election But
:04:57. > :05:00.he feels liberated, he says, we will be the restraining influence on both
:05:01. > :05:05.the Conservatives, who cannot insure that the recovery is fair, and the
:05:06. > :05:08.Labour Party, that do not have economic red ability. He feels
:05:09. > :05:14.relaxed, and that is why he is attacking the Tories and appearing
:05:15. > :05:20.pretty relaxed. He could also be falling into a trap. The Tories
:05:21. > :05:25.think what they suggesting on welfare cuts is possible. The more
:05:26. > :05:31.he attacks it, the more Tories will say, if you gave us an overall
:05:32. > :05:34.majority, he is the one it. He keeps taking these ostensibly on popular
:05:35. > :05:38.positions and it only makes sense when you talk to them behind the
:05:39. > :05:43.scenes, they are going after a tiny slice of the electorate, 20%, who
:05:44. > :05:50.are open to the idea of voting Lib Dem, and their views are a bit more
:05:51. > :05:55.left liberal than the bulk of the public. There is a perverse logic in
:05:56. > :06:02.them aggressively targeting that section of voters. In the end, ten
:06:03. > :06:07.macro's problem, if you do not like what this coalition has been doing,
:06:08. > :06:12.you will not vote for somebody who was part of it, you will vote for
:06:13. > :06:19.the Labour Party. The Tories are too nasty, Labour are to spendthrift,
:06:20. > :06:22.Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has gone to Labour, and that is what
:06:23. > :06:29.could hand the largest party to Labour. That small number of voters,
:06:30. > :06:33.soft Tory voters, the problem for the Liberal Democrats is, if you
:06:34. > :06:37.fight, as they did, three general elections to the left of the Labour
:06:38. > :06:40.Party, and at the end of the third, you find yourself in Colour Vision
:06:41. > :06:47.with the Conservatives, you have a problem.
:06:48. > :06:55.Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has had to deal with aid riot at HM
:06:56. > :06:56.Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike and unhappy probation officers
:06:57. > :07:13.taking industrial action. Prison works. It ensures that we are
:07:14. > :07:23.protected from murderers, muggers and rapists. It makes many who are
:07:24. > :07:28.tempted to commit crime think twice. Traditional Tory policy on criminal
:07:29. > :07:32.justice and prisons has been tough talking and tough dealing. Not only
:07:33. > :07:37.have they tended to think what they are offering is right, but have had
:07:38. > :07:41.the feeling, you thinking what they thinking. But nearly two decades
:07:42. > :07:47.after Michael Howard's message, his party, in Colour Vision government,
:07:48. > :07:51.is finding prison has to work like everything else within today's
:07:52. > :07:55.financial realities. The Justice Secretary for two years after the
:07:56. > :08:02.election had previous in this field. Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a
:08:03. > :08:08.change of direction. Just binding up more and more people for longer
:08:09. > :08:17.without actively seeking to change them is, in my opinion, what you
:08:18. > :08:21.would expect of Victorian England. The key to keeping people out of
:08:22. > :08:28.prison now, it seems, is giving them in a job, on release. Ironically,
:08:29. > :08:32.Ken Clarke was released from his job 15 months ago and replaced by Chris
:08:33. > :08:38.Grayling. But here, within HM Prison Liverpool, Timpson has been working
:08:39. > :08:43.since 2009 with chosen offenders to offer training and the chance of a
:08:44. > :08:47.job. Before you ask, they do not teach them keep cutting in a
:08:48. > :08:50.category B prison. The Academy is deliberately meant to look like a
:08:51. > :08:57.company store, not a prison. It helps. You forget where you are at
:08:58. > :09:01.times, it feels weird, going back to a wing at the end of the day. It is
:09:02. > :09:08.different. A different atmosphere. That is why people like it. Timpson
:09:09. > :09:12.have six academies in prisons, training prisoners inside, and
:09:13. > :09:17.outside they offer jobs to ex-offenders, who make up 8% of
:09:18. > :09:22.their staff. It has been hard work persuading some governors that such
:09:23. > :09:26.cooperation can work. I have seen a dramatic change positively, working
:09:27. > :09:35.with prisoners, particularly in the last five years. They understand now
:09:36. > :09:38.what business's expectation is. Timpson do not just employ
:09:39. > :09:44.offenders, but as one ex-prisoner released in February and now
:09:45. > :09:49.managing his own store says, the point is many others will not employ
:09:50. > :09:54.offenders at all. From what I have experienced, on one hand, you have
:09:55. > :09:57.somebody with a criminal conviction, on the other, somebody who does not
:09:58. > :10:02.have one, so it is a case of favouring those who have a clean
:10:03. > :10:08.record. Anybody with a criminal conviction is passed to one side and
:10:09. > :10:11.overlooked. That, amongst myriad other changes to prison and how we
:10:12. > :10:16.deal with prisoners, is on the desk of the man at the top. Ever since
:10:17. > :10:20.Chris Grayling became Secretary of State for Justice, he has wanted to
:10:21. > :10:24.signal a change of direction of policy, and he is in a hurry to make
:10:25. > :10:28.radical reforms across the board, from size and types of prisons to
:10:29. > :10:32.probation services, reoffending rates, legal aid services, and there
:10:33. > :10:35.has been opposition to that from groups who do not agree with him.
:10:36. > :10:39.But what might actually shackle him is none of that. It is the fact that
:10:40. > :10:44.he is in government with a party that does not always agree with him,
:10:45. > :10:47.he has to abide by the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights,
:10:48. > :10:54.and in those famous words, there is no money left. We would like to go
:10:55. > :10:58.further and faster. I would like him too, but we are where we are. If the
:10:59. > :11:02.Liberal Democrats want to be wiped out at the next election based on
:11:03. > :11:06.what they believe, that is fair enough. We accept there has to be
:11:07. > :11:16.savings, but there are areas where we feel that there is ideological
:11:17. > :11:19.driven policy-making going on, and privatising may not save any money
:11:20. > :11:25.at all, and so does not make any sense. The question is, we'll all of
:11:26. > :11:37.that means some of Chris Grayling's reforms need closer inspection?
:11:38. > :11:45.Chris Grayling joins me now. Welcome. We have a lot to cover If
:11:46. > :11:50.you get your way, your own personal way, will be next Tory manifesto
:11:51. > :11:54.promise to withdraw from the European Convention of human
:11:55. > :12:00.rights? It will contain a promise for radical changes. We have to
:12:01. > :12:07.curtail the role of the European court here, replace our human rights
:12:08. > :12:11.act from the late 1990s, make our Supreme Court our Supreme Court
:12:12. > :12:14.they can be no question of decisions over riding it elsewhere, and we
:12:15. > :12:20.have to have a situation where our laws contain a balance of rights and
:12:21. > :12:24.responsibilities. People talk about knowing their rights, but they do
:12:25. > :12:30.not accept they have responsible it is. This is what you said last
:12:31. > :12:39.September, I want to see our Supreme Court being supreme again... That is
:12:40. > :12:43.clear, but let's be honest, the Supreme Court cannot be supreme as
:12:44. > :12:47.long as its decisions can be referred to the European Court in
:12:48. > :12:54.Strasbourg. There is clearly an issue, that was raised recency -
:12:55. > :12:57.recently. We have been working on a detailed reform plan, we will
:12:58. > :13:02.publish that in the not too distant future. What we will set out is a
:13:03. > :13:07.direction of travel for a new Conservative government that will
:13:08. > :13:10.mean wholesale change in this area. You already tried to reform the
:13:11. > :13:17.European Court, who had this declaration in 2012, do you accept
:13:18. > :13:21.that the reform is off the table? There is still a process of reform,
:13:22. > :13:24.but it is not going fast enough and not delivering the kind of change we
:13:25. > :13:27.need. That is why we will bring forward a package that for the
:13:28. > :13:33.different from that and will set a different direction of travel. We
:13:34. > :13:38.are clear across the coalition, we have a different view from our
:13:39. > :13:44.colleagues. You cannot be half pregnant on this, either our
:13:45. > :13:48.decisions from our Supreme Court are subject to the European Cup or not,
:13:49. > :13:53.in which case, we are not part of the European court. I hope you will
:13:54. > :13:55.see from our proposals we have come up with a sensible strategy that
:13:56. > :14:01.deals with this issue once and for all. Can we be part of the
:14:02. > :14:06.Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme Court be supreme? That is by point,
:14:07. > :14:11.we have to curtail the role of the court in the UK. I am clear that is
:14:12. > :14:18.what we will seek to do. It is what we will do for this country. But
:14:19. > :14:21.how? I am not going to announce the package of policies today, but we
:14:22. > :14:25.will go into the next election with a clear strategy that will curtail
:14:26. > :14:31.the role of the European Court of Human Rights in the UK. The
:14:32. > :14:36.decisions have to be taken in Parliament in this country. Are you
:14:37. > :14:37.sure that you have got your own side on this? Look at what the Attorney
:14:38. > :15:03.General says. I would be asking Strasberg a
:15:04. > :15:09.different question to that. If the best in class, he is saying is
:15:10. > :15:13.enough is enough, actually somebody in Strasberg should be asking if
:15:14. > :15:18.this has gone the way it should have done. I would love to see wholesale
:15:19. > :15:21.reform in the court tomorrow, I m not sure it is going to happen which
:15:22. > :15:29.is why we are going to the election with a clear plan for this country.
:15:30. > :15:34.Would you want that to be a red line in any coalition agreement? My
:15:35. > :15:40.mission is to win the next election with a majority. But you have to say
:15:41. > :15:44.where your red lines would be. We have been very clear it is an area
:15:45. > :15:49.where we don't agree as parties but in my view the public in this
:15:50. > :15:54.country are overwhelmingly behind the Conservative party. 95
:15:55. > :15:58.Conservative MPs have written to the Prime Minister, demanding he gives
:15:59. > :16:02.the House of Commons the authority to veto any aspect of European Union
:16:03. > :16:08.law. Are you one of the people who wanted to sign that letter but you
:16:09. > :16:14.couldn't because you are minister? I haven't been asked to sign the
:16:15. > :16:25.letter. We need a red card system for European law. I'm not convinced
:16:26. > :16:30.my colleagues... I don't think it is realistic to have a situation where
:16:31. > :16:34.one parliament can veto laws across the European Union. I understand the
:16:35. > :16:41.concerns of my colleagues, but when we set out to renegotiate our
:16:42. > :16:44.membership, we have got to deliver renegotiation and deliver a system
:16:45. > :16:47.which is viable, and I'm not convinced we can have a situation
:16:48. > :16:53.where one Parliament can prevent laws across the whole European
:16:54. > :17:02.Union. So you wouldn't have signed this letter? I'm not sure it is the
:17:03. > :17:06.right approach. I support the system I just talked about. Iain Duncan
:17:07. > :17:10.Smith has suggested EU migrants coming to work in this country
:17:11. > :17:17.should have to wait for two years before they qualify for welfare
:17:18. > :17:22.benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think there should be an assumption that
:17:23. > :17:27.before you can move from one country to another, before you can start to
:17:28. > :17:32.take back from that country's social welfare system, you should have made
:17:33. > :17:35.a contribution to it. I spent two and a half years working in Brussels
:17:36. > :17:40.trying to get the European Commission to accept the need for
:17:41. > :17:45.change. There is a groundswell of opinion out there which is behind
:17:46. > :17:49.Iain Duncan Smith in what he is saying. I think we should push for a
:17:50. > :17:53.clear system that says people should be able to move from one country to
:17:54. > :18:01.get a job, but to move to another country to live off the state is not
:18:02. > :18:07.acceptable. You are planning a new 2000 capacity mega prison and other
:18:08. > :18:12.smaller presence which will be run by private firms. After what has
:18:13. > :18:18.happened with G4S, why would you do that? No decision has been made
:18:19. > :18:25.about whether it will be public or private. What do you think it will
:18:26. > :18:30.be? I'm not sure yet. There is no clear correlation over public and
:18:31. > :18:36.private prisons and whether there are problems or otherwise. Oakwood
:18:37. > :18:40.is in its early stages, it has had teething problems at the start, but
:18:41. > :18:48.the rate of disturbance there is only typical for an average prison
:18:49. > :18:52.of its category. If you take an example of Parc prison in Wales a
:18:53. > :18:58.big private run prison, run by G4S, when it was first launched under the
:18:59. > :19:03.last government it had teething problems of the same kind as Oakwood
:19:04. > :19:08.and is now regarded as one of the best performing prisons. Why would
:19:09. > :19:14.you give it to a private company then? We have only just got planning
:19:15. > :19:20.permission for the so we will not be thinking about this for another few
:19:21. > :19:26.years. Some of the companies who run prisons are under investigation with
:19:27. > :19:31.dreadful track records. In the case of G4S, what we have experienced is
:19:32. > :19:35.acceptable and they have not been able to go ahead with a number of
:19:36. > :19:42.contracts they might have otherwise got. They are having to prove to the
:19:43. > :19:46.Government they are fit to win contracts from the Government again.
:19:47. > :19:52.They are having to pay compensation to the Government and the taxpayer.
:19:53. > :19:58.What has happened is unacceptable. So why would you give them a 20 0
:19:59. > :20:09.capacity mega prison? Or anyone like them? It cannot be said that every
:20:10. > :20:12.private company is bad. In addition to problems at Oakwood, you are
:20:13. > :20:17.quite unique now in your position that you have managed to get the
:20:18. > :20:24.barristers out on strike the first time since history began. What
:20:25. > :20:29.happens if the bar refuses to do work at your new rates of legal aid
:20:30. > :20:34.and the courts grind to a halt? I don't believe that will happen. When
:20:35. > :20:39.the barristers came out on strike, three quarters of Crown Courts were
:20:40. > :20:44.operating normally, 95% of magistrates courts were operating
:20:45. > :20:48.normally. We are having to take difficult decisions across
:20:49. > :20:52.government, I have no desire to cut back lately but we are spending over
:20:53. > :20:57.?2 billion on legal aid at the moment at a time when budgets are
:20:58. > :21:05.becoming tougher. You issued misleading figures about criminal
:21:06. > :21:11.barristers, you said that 25% of them earn over ?100,000 per year but
:21:12. > :21:16.that is their turnover, including VAT. 33% of that money goes on their
:21:17. > :21:22.expenses, they have to pay for their own pensions and insurance. People
:21:23. > :21:28.are not getting wealthy out of doing this work. I don't publish figures,
:21:29. > :21:32.our statisticians do, with caveats in place explaining the situation.
:21:33. > :21:37.Where you have high-cost cases, where we have taken the most
:21:38. > :21:41.difficult decisions, we have tried hard in taking difficult decisions
:21:42. > :21:52.to focus the impact higher up the income scale. But do you accept
:21:53. > :21:57.their take-home pay is not 100, 00? I accept they have to take out other
:21:58. > :22:00.costs, although some things like travelling to the court, you and I
:22:01. > :22:12.and everyone else has to pay for travelling to work. That is net of
:22:13. > :22:18.VAT. We have had a variety of figures published, some are and some
:22:19. > :22:25.are not. Let's be clear, the gross figures for fees from legal payments
:22:26. > :22:31.include 20% VAT. On a week when even a cabinet minister can be fitted up
:22:32. > :22:37.by the police, don't we all need well-financed legal aid? There is no
:22:38. > :22:41.chance that as a result well-financed legal aid? There is no
:22:42. > :22:53.changes people will end up in court unable to defend themselves. We have
:22:54. > :22:59.said in exceptional circumstances, if you haven't got any money to pay,
:23:00. > :23:02.we will support you, but there is no question of anyone ended up in
:23:03. > :23:08.court, facing a criminal charge where they haven't got a lawyer to
:23:09. > :23:13.defend them. Let's look at how so many dangerous criminals have
:23:14. > :23:18.managed to avoid jail. Here are the figures for 2012. Half the people
:23:19. > :23:30.for sexual assault found guilty not jailed. I thought you were meant to
:23:31. > :23:35.be tough on crime? Those figures predate my time, but since 2010 the
:23:36. > :23:41.number of those people going to jail has been increasing steadily. If you
:23:42. > :23:45.put the figures for 2010 on there, you would see a significant change.
:23:46. > :23:51.We will never be in a position where everybody who commits violence will
:23:52. > :23:54.end up in jail. The courts will often decided to his more
:23:55. > :23:59.appropriate to give a community sentence, but the trend is towards
:24:00. > :24:04.longer sentences and more people going to jail. That maybe but it is
:24:05. > :24:11.even quite hard to get sent to jail if you do these things a lot, again
:24:12. > :24:16.and again. In 2012 one criminal avoided being sent to jail despite
:24:17. > :24:25.having more than 300 offences to his name. 36,000 avoided going to jail
:24:26. > :24:30.despite 15 previous offences. That is why we are taking steps to
:24:31. > :24:36.toughen up the system. Last autumn we scrapped repeat cautions. You
:24:37. > :24:42.could find people getting dozens. As of last autumn, we have scrapped
:24:43. > :24:46.repeat cautions. If you commit the same offence twice within a two year
:24:47. > :24:53.period you will go to court. You still might end up not going to
:24:54. > :24:59.jail. More and more people are going to jail. I cannot just magic another
:25:00. > :25:06.34,000 prison places. You haven t got room to put bad people in jail?
:25:07. > :25:11.The courts will take the decisions, and it is for them to take the
:25:12. > :25:16.decisions and not me, that two men in a bar fight do not merit a jail
:25:17. > :25:22.sentence. These figures contain a huge amount of offences from the
:25:23. > :25:26.most minor of offences to the most despicable. Something is wrong if
:25:27. > :25:31.you can commit 300 offences and still not end up in jail. That's
:25:32. > :25:39.right, and we are taking steps so this cannot happen any more. Nick
:25:40. > :25:47.Clegg said this morning you are going to make 12 billion of welfare
:25:48. > :25:51.cuts on the back of this, he is right, isn't he? People on the
:25:52. > :26:00.lowest incomes are often not paying tax at all, the rich... But these
:26:01. > :26:05.cuts will fall disproportionately on average earners, correct? Let's look
:26:06. > :26:13.at the proposal to limit housing benefit for under 25s. Until today,
:26:14. > :26:19.after people have left school or college, the live for a time with
:26:20. > :26:23.their parents. For some, that is not possible and we will have to take
:26:24. > :26:27.that into account, but we have said there is a strong case for saying
:26:28. > :26:32.you will not get housing benefit until you are some years down the
:26:33. > :26:35.road and have properly established yourselves in work. And by
:26:36. > :26:43.definition these people are on lower than average salaries. Give me a
:26:44. > :26:49.case in which those on the higher tax band will contribute to the
:26:50. > :26:53.cuts. We have already put in place tax changes so that the highest tax
:26:54. > :27:01.rate is already higher than it was in every year of the last
:27:02. > :27:07.government. The amount of tax.. There is no more expected of the
:27:08. > :27:11.rich. We will clearly look at future policy and work out how best to
:27:12. > :27:15.distribute the tax burden in this country and it is not for me to
:27:16. > :27:21.second-guess George Osborne's future plans, but we need to look at for
:27:22. > :27:28.example housing benefit for the under 25s. Is it right for those who
:27:29. > :27:33.are not working for the state to provide accommodation for them?
:27:34. > :27:36.Thank you for being with us. All three major parties at
:27:37. > :27:38.Westminster agree there's an urgent need to build more homes for
:27:39. > :27:42.Britain's growing population. But how they get built, and where, looks
:27:43. > :27:44.set to become a major battle ground in the run-up to the next general
:27:45. > :27:47.election. Although 16% more house-builds were
:27:48. > :27:50.started in 2012/13 than the previous year, the number actually completed
:27:51. > :27:57.fell by 8% - the lowest level in peacetime since 1920. The Office for
:27:58. > :28:00.National Statistics estimates that between now and 2021 we should
:28:01. > :28:07.expect 220,000 new households to be created every year. At his party's
:28:08. > :28:14.conference last autumn, Ed Miliband promised a Labour government would
:28:15. > :28:19.massively increase house-building. I will have a clear aim but by the end
:28:20. > :28:24.of the parliament, Britain will be building 200,000 homes per year
:28:25. > :28:28.more than at any time for a generation. That is how we make
:28:29. > :28:32.Britain better than this. The Labour leader also says he'd give urban
:28:33. > :28:34.councils a "right to grow" so rural neighbours can't block expansion and
:28:35. > :28:39.force developers with unused land to use it or lose it. The Government
:28:40. > :28:42.has been pursuing its own ideas including loan guarantees for
:28:43. > :28:46.developers and a new homes bonus to boost new house-building. But David
:28:47. > :28:49.Cameron could have trouble keeping his supporters on side - this week
:28:50. > :28:51.the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi criticised planning reforms for
:28:52. > :28:58.causing "physical harm" to the countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile
:28:59. > :29:13.prefers a radical solution - brand new garden cities in the south east
:29:14. > :29:16.of England. In a speech tomorrow, Labour's shadow housing minister
:29:17. > :29:18.Emma Reynolds will give more details of how Labour would boost
:29:19. > :29:23.house-building, and she joins me now. It is not the politicians to
:29:24. > :29:28.blame, it is the lack of house-builders? We want a vibrant
:29:29. > :29:33.building industry, and at the moment that industry is dominated by big
:29:34. > :29:37.house-builders. I want to see a more diverse and competitive industry,
:29:38. > :29:45.where self build plays a greater role. In France over 60% of new
:29:46. > :29:50.homes are built by self builders, but small builders build more homes
:29:51. > :29:54.as well. 25 years ago they were building two thirds of new homes,
:29:55. > :29:58.now they are not building even a third of new homes. That's because
:29:59. > :30:01.land policies have been so restrictive that it is only the big
:30:02. > :30:06.companies who can afford to buy the land, so little land is being
:30:07. > :30:11.released for house building. I agree, there are some fundamental
:30:12. > :30:14.structural problems with the land market and that is why we have said
:30:15. > :30:18.there doesn't just need to be tinkering around the edges, there
:30:19. > :30:23.needs to be real reforms to make sure that small builders and self
:30:24. > :30:28.build and custom-built have access to land. They are saying they have
:30:29. > :30:34.problems with access to land and finance. At the end of the day it
:30:35. > :30:40.will not be self, small builders who reach your target, it will be big
:30:41. > :30:44.builders. I think it is pretty shameful that in Western Europe the
:30:45. > :30:52.new houses built in the UK are smaller than our neighbours. But
:30:53. > :30:57.isn't not the land problem? France is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and
:30:58. > :31:05.we are and that is not a problem for them. There is a perception we are
:31:06. > :31:10.going to build on the countryside, but not even 10% is on the
:31:11. > :31:19.countryside. There is enough for us to have our golf courses. There is
:31:20. > :31:23.enough other land for us to build on that is not golf courses. The
:31:24. > :31:27.planning minister has said he wants to build our National Parks, I am
:31:28. > :31:34.not suggesting that. The single biggest land border is the public
:31:35. > :31:38.sector. It is not. There are great opportunities for releasing public
:31:39. > :31:42.land, that is why I have been asking the government, they say they are
:31:43. > :31:46.going to release and of public land for tens of thousands of new homes
:31:47. > :31:51.to be built, but they say they are not monitoring how many houses are
:31:52. > :31:58.being built on the site. When your leader says to landowners, housing
:31:59. > :32:04.development owners, either use the land or lose it, in what way will
:32:05. > :32:09.they lose it? Will you confiscated? This is about strengthening the hand
:32:10. > :32:13.of local authorities, and they say to us that in some cases,
:32:14. > :32:18.house-builders are sitting on land. In those cases, we would give the
:32:19. > :32:24.power to local authorities to escalate fees. This would be the
:32:25. > :32:29.compulsory purchase orders, a matter of last resort, and you would hope
:32:30. > :32:36.that by strengthening the hand of local authorities, you could get the
:32:37. > :32:42.house-builders to start building the homes that people want. Would you
:32:43. > :32:47.compulsory purchase it? We would give the local authority as a last
:32:48. > :32:51.resort, after escalating the fees, the possibility and flexible it is
:32:52. > :32:54.to use the compulsory purchase orders to sell the land on to a
:32:55. > :32:59.house builder who wants to build houses that we need. Can you name
:33:00. > :33:02.one report that has come back in recent years that shows that
:33:03. > :33:08.hoarding of land by house-builders is a major problem? The IMF, the
:33:09. > :33:10.Conservative mayor of London and the Local Government Association are
:33:11. > :33:14.telling us that there is a problem with land hoarding. Therefore, we
:33:15. > :33:20.have said, where there is land with planning permission, and if plots
:33:21. > :33:25.are being sat on... Boris Johnson says there are 180,000 plots in
:33:26. > :33:33.London being sat on. We need to make sure the house-builders are building
:33:34. > :33:36.the homes that young families need. They get planning permission and
:33:37. > :33:39.sell it on to the developer. There is a whole degree of complicity but
:33:40. > :33:44.there is another problem before that. That is around transparency
:33:45. > :33:48.about land options. There is agricultural land that
:33:49. > :33:55.house-builders have land options on, and we do not know where that is.
:33:56. > :34:01.Where there is a need for housing, and the biggest demand is in the
:34:02. > :34:06.south-east of England, that is where many local authorities are most
:34:07. > :34:09.reluctant to do it, will you in central government take powers to
:34:10. > :34:17.force these authorities to give it? We have talked about the right to
:34:18. > :34:25.grow, we were in Stevenage recently. What we have said is we
:34:26. > :34:27.want to strengthen the hand of local authorities like Stevenage so they
:34:28. > :34:34.are not blocked every step of the way. They need 16,000 new homes, but
:34:35. > :34:37.they do not have the land supply. What about the authorities that do
:34:38. > :34:41.not want to do it? They should be forced to sit down and agree with
:34:42. > :34:46.the neighbouring authority. In Stevenage, it is estimated at
:34:47. > :34:48.?500,000 has been spent on legal fees because North Hertfordshire is
:34:49. > :34:55.blocking Stevenage every step of the way. Michael Lyons says the national
:34:56. > :35:02.interest will have to take President over local interest. Voice cannot
:35:03. > :35:07.mean a veto. The local community in Stevenage is crying out for new
:35:08. > :35:11.homes. Do you agree? There has to be land available for new homes to be
:35:12. > :35:16.built, and in areas like Oxford, Luton and Stevenage... Do you agree
:35:17. > :35:38.with Michael Lyons? The national interest does have to be served,
:35:39. > :35:44.will put the five new towns? We have asked him to look at how we can
:35:45. > :35:49.incentivise local authorities to come forward with sites for new
:35:50. > :35:54.towns. You cannot tell us where they are going to be? I cannot. We will
:35:55. > :36:00.have to wait for him. When you look at the historic figures overall, not
:36:01. > :36:03.at the moment, Private Housing building is only just beginning to
:36:04. > :36:07.recover, but it has been pretty steady for a while. The big
:36:08. > :36:11.difference between house-building now and in the past, since Mrs
:36:12. > :36:14.Thatcher came to power a and including the Tony Blair government,
:36:15. > :36:19.we did not build council houses. Almost none. Will the next Labour
:36:20. > :36:26.government embark on a major council has programme? We inherited housing
:36:27. > :36:32.stock back in 1997... This is important. Will the next Labour
:36:33. > :36:36.government embark on a major council has programme? We have called on
:36:37. > :36:40.this government to bring forward investment in social housing. We
:36:41. > :36:45.want to see an investment programme in social housing, I cannot give you
:36:46. > :36:50.the figures now. We are 18 months away from the election. Will the
:36:51. > :36:55.next Labour government embark on a major council house Northern
:36:56. > :36:58.programme? I want to see a council house building programme, because
:36:59. > :37:07.there is a big shortage of council homes. That is a guess? Yes. We got
:37:08. > :37:14.there in the end. -- that is a yes? We will be talking to Patrick homes
:37:15. > :37:17.in the West Midlands in a moment. You are watching the Sunday
:37:18. > :37:19.Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will look at the week
:37:20. > :37:38.ahead with our political Hello, this is the Sunday Politics
:37:39. > :37:43.for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Coming up today, we find out why
:37:44. > :37:49.Scotland's independence referendum campaign has triggered calls for
:37:50. > :37:52.home rule for Yorkshire. And we will be digging into the
:37:53. > :37:57.archives to find out what we can learn on the recently released
:37:58. > :38:03.Cabinet papers of 1984. Let's say hello to our guests, Angela Smith,
:38:04. > :38:06.Labour MP for Penistone and Stockbridge, and Nigel Adams,
:38:07. > :38:11.Conservative MP for Selby and instead. Seeing as it is our first
:38:12. > :38:15.show of 2014, I want your insight into how this year will play out
:38:16. > :38:20.politically. Two big events, politically, the European elections
:38:21. > :38:25.on May the 22nd, and the Scottish referendum later in the year. Both
:38:26. > :38:28.of those events will give us some indication of where the country is
:38:29. > :38:33.going politically. I await with interest the outcome. On the
:38:34. > :38:38.referendum, I am hopeful that Scotland will stay with the union,
:38:39. > :38:42.think it is better for all of us. The European elections and, who
:38:43. > :38:47.knows? We have four months yet, anything can happen between now and
:38:48. > :38:54.then. We will be working as hard as we can to deliver as many Labour
:38:55. > :39:00.MEPs as possible. I am looking forward to the economy continuing to
:39:01. > :39:04.recover. In my particular patch, we managed to get an implement down by
:39:05. > :39:09.35% since the last election and I hope that we were focusing `` will
:39:10. > :39:17.offer a course on assuring that work continues. `` we will focus. As we
:39:18. > :39:21.have just said, 2014 is the year of the referendum on Scottish
:39:22. > :39:23.independence. Voters north of the border will decide whether they want
:39:24. > :39:28.to break free from the United Kingdom. Some point out that the
:39:29. > :39:33.Yorkshire and Humber region has a similar population size to Scotland,
:39:34. > :39:37.so is it time once again to debate the prospect of home rule for
:39:38. > :39:42.Yorkshire? Here is Len Tingle. Scotland, a proud nation with a
:39:43. > :39:46.population of around 5.2 million. Yorkshire and the Humber, equally
:39:47. > :39:50.proud and a bigger population of 5.3 million. But Scotland has a more
:39:51. > :39:54.successful economy. Must you, average hourly earnings in Scotland
:39:55. > :39:59.were ?12.32 per person than stock in Yorkshire and the Humber, almost
:40:00. > :40:04.pound less. An implement levels are running at 7.1%. In Yorkshire and
:40:05. > :40:09.the Humber, it .6%. Some argue that this down to another difference.
:40:10. > :40:15.Scotland has a Parliament. Yorkshire does not. But there are those who
:40:16. > :40:19.say that has to change and they are campaigning for more power to be
:40:20. > :40:23.wielded from inside Yorkshire. I am not sure if it is a Parliament we
:40:24. > :40:27.need, but we have population the same size as Scotland and an economy
:40:28. > :40:32.double the size of Wales but we do not have any of either of those. Why
:40:33. > :40:36.can't we get fairer funding from London and decide what we want to do
:40:37. > :40:41.with our own resources? But have we not been here before? A decade ago,
:40:42. > :40:45.this building in Wakefield was earmarked as potentially being the
:40:46. > :40:49.home of the very first directly elected regional assembly for
:40:50. > :40:55.Yorkshire. A lot of public money was spent on the plan, months went into
:40:56. > :40:58.preparation. It came to nothing. A major campaign survey failed to
:40:59. > :41:08.attract enough support. Yes campaigners claimed everything from
:41:09. > :41:11.crime to the economy would improve. The no campaign simply ridiculed the
:41:12. > :41:19.idea as an expensive extra layer of government, and even aliens beaming
:41:20. > :41:22.in from space would find it amusing. The Labour government had planned
:41:23. > :41:24.referendums on setting up elected December is the three regions but
:41:25. > :41:28.finished up cancelling two of them, including Yorkshire and the North
:41:29. > :41:32.West. The only one that went ahead, in the North East, saw three
:41:33. > :41:44.quarters of voters turning down the idea. It was a pretty disastrous
:41:45. > :41:49.campaign, very little power was being offered to transfer to a North
:41:50. > :41:53.East assembly so it is not really supposing that it was voted out. So
:41:54. > :41:57.much has happened over the last ten years, we have seen the success of
:41:58. > :42:03.devolution in Scotland and in Wales, and also in London, London and `` is
:42:04. > :42:08.a good example of regional government at work. The use of
:42:09. > :42:11.voices comic more power in the North are not just looking towards
:42:12. > :42:17.Scotland or even Wales, their eyes are cast firmly south, towards
:42:18. > :42:26.London, with its all`powerful Mayor and looming economy. `` booming. But
:42:27. > :42:31.the high`profile leadership of Boris Johnson in London and that relative
:42:32. > :42:35.economic success under the SNP's Alex Salmond in Scotland, still is
:42:36. > :42:39.not enough for those who refuse to believe that regional assemblies,
:42:40. > :42:45.backed heavily at the time by John Prescott, would redress the economic
:42:46. > :42:50.balance. If we are to get real power to Yorkshire, that means for
:42:51. > :42:53.example, we do not have Yorkshire as part of the National Health Service,
:42:54. > :42:58.we have a Yorkshire health service that is independent, or we have
:42:59. > :43:04.Yorkshire universities that are not charging tuition fees. But with the
:43:05. > :43:08.also vote to pay for the taxation to pay for such a policy? When you get
:43:09. > :43:12.down into the meat of the debate, I don't think it would be any more
:43:13. > :43:16.support for Yorkshire devolution than we saw ten years ago. Whether
:43:17. > :43:20.the Scots vote for or against independence, that is not the issue
:43:21. > :43:24.for Yorkshire at the moment. What is interesting is that it has sparked
:43:25. > :43:29.discussion about whether lack of political power is holding back
:43:30. > :43:31.northern regions. Is it time once again to look at
:43:32. > :43:37.home rule for Yorkshire and the Humber? I tend to agree with the
:43:38. > :43:41.aliens in this package, and also with John Watson. I think there is
:43:42. > :43:45.enough politicians and elected representatives in the region.
:43:46. > :43:49.Scotland is different altogether, they are funded differently with
:43:50. > :43:56.their grant system. We visited this ten years ago, and the idea that we
:43:57. > :44:01.have more paid politicians rattling around Yorkshire, I don't think the
:44:02. > :44:04.public will swallow it. Labour ditched the idea of regional. Made
:44:05. > :44:11.ten years ago, is a more appetite now? We have moved on, it is ten
:44:12. > :44:17.years later, the evidence is mounting now that we are being
:44:18. > :44:21.damaged economically by the lack of investment in the north, and lack of
:44:22. > :44:23.an ability in the North for politicians to take decisions that
:44:24. > :44:28.are in the interest. But we also have to remember that when it comes
:44:29. > :44:33.to government funding, there is far more money going into London and the
:44:34. > :44:35.South East than we see going into Yorkshire and Lincolnshire.
:44:36. > :44:40.Something has to be done to address that. One of the other issues we
:44:41. > :44:45.have to face is that local and as we know it is rapidly disappearing.
:44:46. > :44:51.Sheffield will have lost 50% of its budget by 2015. By 2018, the money
:44:52. > :44:57.begins to run out and there is nothing left except money for social
:44:58. > :45:02.services. Local government is rapidly being broken beyond repair,
:45:03. > :45:06.so in the gap that creates, I think there is an opportunity for a real
:45:07. > :45:12.debate about serious devolution for the area of Yorkshire and the
:45:13. > :45:15.Humber. Sure you accept there is an argument for us having more of a say
:45:16. > :45:21.on how our money is spent on our part of the world. We do have a say,
:45:22. > :45:26.that is why we have MPs. We have a completely event system, the
:45:27. > :45:29.comparison with Scotland does not really work. They get the block
:45:30. > :45:32.grant and they have this sophisticated formula, they are
:45:33. > :45:37.entitled to spend the money how they wish. We have dozens and dozens of
:45:38. > :45:49.parliamentarians in the North Mac, we should be fighting our corner. ``
:45:50. > :45:54.in the North. We have just seen Harrogate tapping into that might
:45:55. > :45:59.there is cash there, but surely, we are not saying we should create
:46:00. > :46:04.another, more expensive layer of bureaucracy to govern our region. I
:46:05. > :46:08.do not think it is feasible. Nobody is arguing that we want to put layer
:46:09. > :46:13.upon layer of political accountability into the picture. I
:46:14. > :46:19.am just saying that given that destruction, the effective
:46:20. > :46:22.destruction of local Governor, `` local government, the has to be a
:46:23. > :46:27.serious look at what we do for the future. And I will say this, we have
:46:28. > :46:32.seen Amazon, for instance, investing in Scotland rather than the North
:46:33. > :46:35.East, because of what the Scottish Parliament was able to offer that
:46:36. > :46:42.company in way of incentives for investment. We have to be able to
:46:43. > :46:45.address the issues created by a more independent Scotland, and the power
:46:46. > :46:49.base that is London and the South East. Yorkshire is being squeezed by
:46:50. > :46:53.the two and we have to deal with that. Do we have devolution for
:46:54. > :46:59.Lancashire or Derbyshire? Hurdle we stop? We need a new constitutional
:47:00. > :47:03.settlement that deals with the fact that local government is
:47:04. > :47:10.disappearing. Surrey`mac they are having to do more with less...
:47:11. > :47:14.Yorkshire and Lancashire, let's not divide the two, the North of England
:47:15. > :47:17.is suffering badly in terms of funding from central government. It
:47:18. > :47:24.doesn't get the deal that you're saying in others. Some companies may
:47:25. > :47:27.have done, but the levels of investment are not as good as we
:47:28. > :47:32.have seen in the South East of England or in Scotland. Or even in
:47:33. > :47:36.Wales. What about London? It has a regional assembly, Boris never
:47:37. > :47:41.complains about it. Because the people wanted it. We went down this
:47:42. > :47:46.route of asking people if they wanted regional assemblies, and you
:47:47. > :47:50.saw the result in the North East. There was no appetite for it. London
:47:51. > :47:57.is a different market, it is very much a financial centre, and it is
:47:58. > :48:03.very, very... I think it is far too simple a fight to compare the two.
:48:04. > :48:09.`` simplified. Therein lies the problem. London is the financial
:48:10. > :48:14.centre, we have an economy which is Rob Lee based on financial services,
:48:15. > :48:18.and if the North is to regenerate, Yorkshire in particular, we need to
:48:19. > :48:22.build our manufacturing base. To do that, Yorkshire needs to have more
:48:23. > :48:28.control over its destiny. But we have plenty of examples of success
:48:29. > :48:33.in Yorkshire. I do wish that our politicians would talk up our
:48:34. > :48:38.region. We need more of what we have had. It always comes out of the
:48:39. > :48:42.woodwork every so often. Margaret Thatcher famously talked about the
:48:43. > :48:46.enemy within during the miners' strike 30 years ago.
:48:47. > :48:49.But it seems Arthur Scargill's NUM was not the Iron Lady's only enemy.
:48:50. > :48:54.Recently released Cabinet papers from the unity for reveal the
:48:55. > :48:58.Conservative government feared a prolonged strike by the dockers,
:48:59. > :49:02.which could have prevented coal being imported and led to blackouts
:49:03. > :49:06.and food shortages. Ministers were so concerned by the prospect of a
:49:07. > :49:08.dock strike on the Humber that they were prepared to bring in troops and
:49:09. > :49:47.to declare a state of emergency. Mrs Thatcher had a go at anyone who
:49:48. > :49:54.was in a trade union, that is fact. These papers really prove that. She
:49:55. > :49:58.talked about getting the Army in. If that had come out at the time, she
:49:59. > :50:04.would have had a fight on our hands, from us and from the minors.
:50:05. > :50:07.I knew that the heart of the dockers was not in closing down their own
:50:08. > :50:12.industry. Dockers were very well paid, you had the Dock Labour scheme
:50:13. > :50:16.where they inherited their jobs from their fathers. They knew they were
:50:17. > :50:19.on to a good think. They knew if the dock strike were to confront the
:50:20. > :50:26.Government, the Government would end, as it did, the Dock Labour
:50:27. > :50:34.scheme. She thought that by closing all the pits, and Arthur Scargill
:50:35. > :50:38.was right, she told us there was 20 bits to close and it was more than
:50:39. > :50:46.that. If that was to come out at the time, I do not think you would have
:50:47. > :50:48.the dockers... We were in the process of privatising the docks,
:50:49. > :50:55.but we had secret ammunition. There were lots of private wards, into
:50:56. > :50:59.which imported coal was coming. Not many people knew about this. I was
:51:00. > :51:04.briefed on it and told to make sure my constituency did not make too
:51:05. > :51:07.much of a farce. So I personally never had fears about the
:51:08. > :51:16.possibility of a national dockers strike. Martha Mabey Aaron is that
:51:17. > :51:22.the docks `` the irony was that the docks were being used to import
:51:23. > :51:26.coal. We had tonnes and tonnes of coal underground but the pits were
:51:27. > :51:30.being closed. Do you still think Mrs Thatcher was right? Absolutely.
:51:31. > :51:35.Every government since then is now put there by the people, not by
:51:36. > :51:38.Arthur Scargill. I am in no doubt that Tony Blair gave the greatest
:51:39. > :51:46.thanks to Margaret Thatcher once she had sorted out the minors.
:51:47. > :51:50.`` sorted out the coal miners. Do you think if the dockers had been
:51:51. > :51:55.more militant, the outcome of the miners' strike would have been
:51:56. > :52:00.different? It could have been. If the pit supervisors and deputies had
:52:01. > :52:05.decided to go to strike and stay out, who knows what we do know now,
:52:06. > :52:08.it is just how close it really was. There were moments when the Thatcher
:52:09. > :52:13.government really was very worried about the outcome. It is very
:52:14. > :52:20.emotional and painful for most of us to recall. And to see the images
:52:21. > :52:27.once again. A very painful time in our history. The miners' strike is
:52:28. > :52:30.seen as a great victory for Margaret Thatcher, but actually, looking at
:52:31. > :52:34.some of the Cabinet papers, they were genuinely worried, talking
:52:35. > :52:41.about troops being brought in, a national urgency. These 30`year`old
:52:42. > :52:44.papers are something that was brought in, rightly so, we have now
:52:45. > :52:49.seen these particular papers, it is unusual for a Prime Minister at the
:52:50. > :52:56.time to be given advice by officials, it happens all the time.
:52:57. > :53:04.Harold Wilson was given advice in 1964 I've, that we should invade
:53:05. > :53:08.Rhodesia. `` 1965. He didn't take that advice, but the advice was
:53:09. > :53:11.there in the Cabinet papers. It is not unusual that these things come
:53:12. > :53:17.forward. It was a very difficult time, my own family were involved in
:53:18. > :53:23.the strike on both sides. But it is absolutely right that a Prime
:53:24. > :53:31.Minister, any Government, takes whatever preparations it can, to
:53:32. > :53:34.ensure that food and fuel are transported, and in actual fact,
:53:35. > :53:43.Tony Blair did exactly the same bribe ringing in the Army in 2002
:53:44. > :53:46.during the firefighters strike. We will be hearing a lot over the next
:53:47. > :53:50.few months with the 30th anniversary of the miners' strike yup, but who
:53:51. > :53:54.was responsible for the demise of the Yorkshire coal industry,
:53:55. > :54:00.Margaret Thatcher or Arthur Scargill? You could go back further
:54:01. > :54:05.and say that effectively, when industry was nationalised in the
:54:06. > :54:10.post`war period, it had already been severely damaged by decades of
:54:11. > :54:13.underinvestment, refusal on the part of the coal mine owners to reform
:54:14. > :54:19.the industry. So to some extent, you have to go back a long way to find
:54:20. > :54:22.the roots of what went wrong. We capitalised on our dominant position
:54:23. > :54:27.in the coal market for far too long. When the competition came
:54:28. > :54:31.along, we were helpless in the face of it. Or I will say is that I think
:54:32. > :54:36.the Thatcher Government behaved irresponsibly in the way that it
:54:37. > :54:41.handled the decline of the coal industry. Allowing those villages
:54:42. > :54:46.and communities to go to the wall like they did and to Allied the coal
:54:47. > :54:50.industry that went to allow the coal industry to disappear as radically
:54:51. > :54:53.as it did as do lasting damage to the south torture economy, which was
:54:54. > :54:57.still effectively trying to repair `` which we are still trying to
:54:58. > :55:02.repair. The Thatcher Government had a much more wide ranging pit closure
:55:03. > :55:08.programme than was revealed back then. If you look at the papers,
:55:09. > :55:10.governments get advice and recommendations all the time, it
:55:11. > :55:16.does not necessarily mean that is the policy. There is absolutely no
:55:17. > :55:23.evidence that that was going to be the case. As I mentioned, the Harold
:55:24. > :55:28.Wilson Rhodesia story, they get papers, they get recommendations all
:55:29. > :55:33.the time. Is there much to learn when we look back to those images of
:55:34. > :55:37.1984? The power of the trade unions, that was the high water mark, after
:55:38. > :55:45.that, they have never had the same kind of clout. Know, and I think we
:55:46. > :55:49.are where we are now, it is a cliche, you have to look forward and
:55:50. > :55:55.not back. For trade unions in this country, that has to be a
:55:56. > :55:59.recognition by everyone, politicians, employers, they'd
:56:00. > :56:05.unions, that we have to find a better way of doing business in this
:56:06. > :56:08.country. `` trade unions. That does mean involving the trade unions in
:56:09. > :56:15.decision`making in this country. In Europe, it is quite common for trade
:56:16. > :56:18.unionists to be on the boards of major companies and are pleased to
:56:19. > :56:22.be on the boards of major companies. For some reason in the UK, this does
:56:23. > :56:27.not happen. We have to reform the way we do this. That is another
:56:28. > :56:37.debate for another time. Let's get more of the week's
:56:38. > :56:44.political news. Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg
:56:45. > :56:46.came to see how ?1 million other Government's regional growth fund is
:56:47. > :56:51.being spent at a factory in West Yorkshire, he heard it means 200 new
:56:52. > :56:56.jobs. He says that money spent in this way will attract more private
:56:57. > :57:01.investment. If we can make a modest addition and
:57:02. > :57:04.say with this bit of Excel, these make the decision to invest in
:57:05. > :57:08.Britain, that is the money of taxpayers, well spent.
:57:09. > :57:11.The process has begun this week to decide whether Anne McIntosh should
:57:12. > :57:16.be sacked as candidate in her constituency at the net collection.
:57:17. > :57:19.The next election. They had been sent postal ballot papers to say
:57:20. > :57:23.whether they endorsed the decision to be selected.
:57:24. > :57:27.Controversy as the Government suggests the way to reduce air
:57:28. > :57:34.pollution on the M1 motorway is to cut speed, a 60 mph top speed is
:57:35. > :57:37.proposed on the motorway between North Derbyshire and rather, local
:57:38. > :57:43.businesses say the idea will not work. `` and Rotherham.
:57:44. > :57:48.Nigel Adams, what do you make of the plan to cut speeds on the M1? Well,
:57:49. > :57:52.I suspect it is more to do with traffic flow than pollution. That
:57:53. > :57:57.section of the motorway is notorious. It is very difficult at
:57:58. > :58:03.peak times. It is worth an experiment. I know various
:58:04. > :58:07.campaigners have looked at increasing speeds as well, at
:58:08. > :58:15.quieter times, to increase traffic flow. Some want 80 mph limit on
:58:16. > :58:20.motorways, what is your take you Mac one of my colleagues is doing a lot
:58:21. > :58:24.of work on this. She is very unhappy with the proposals. She thinks there
:58:25. > :58:29.are real issues around safety. I know that South Yorkshire safety
:58:30. > :58:33.partnership is also very concerned. They are pressing for meetings with
:58:34. > :58:39.ministers to talk through the implications of the proposals and
:58:40. > :58:43.this latest suggested speed limit. Your colleague in North Yorkshire
:58:44. > :58:47.MP, Nigel Adams, Anne McIntosh is facing a fight for her political
:58:48. > :58:51.future with a ballot of party members. The you support her? We
:58:52. > :58:57.have a democratic system in our party. That is how we select our
:58:58. > :59:01.candidates. It is clearly a very difficult time for her but she will
:59:02. > :59:05.have the opportunity to put her case to the members, and they will be
:59:06. > :59:13.given an opportunity to vote. It is really down to the members to
:59:14. > :59:18.decide. Do you support her? I suspect she will win. I expect her
:59:19. > :59:25.to win stop but I don't get a vote. It is not my business. It is for
:59:26. > :59:29.members of the local party. I wish her all the best, actually. I do not
:59:30. > :59:34.agree with her very often. But I wish her all the best.
:59:35. > :59:39.Let me ask you about Nick Clegg. A busy start to 2014, what do you make
:59:40. > :59:44.about this new love in with Ed Balls? Saying that Labour would
:59:45. > :59:49.perhaps form a coalition with the Lib Dems. I take it with a pinch of
:59:50. > :59:57.salt. The media has been getting very excited about this. Nick Clegg
:59:58. > :00:01.is all over the place on most wings. Ed Balls is saying he is willing to
:00:02. > :00:10.jump into bed now with the Lib Dems. Let's concentrate on the really
:00:11. > :00:13.serious issues, which as you know, rebuilding the Yorkshire economy.
:00:14. > :00:19.There is so much work needs to be done. I will not be detected by
:00:20. > :00:23.Lovins between politicians. I will get on with my job. `` I will not be
:00:24. > :00:37.distracted by loving `` love`ins. Andrew.
:00:38. > :00:42.Can David Cameron get his way on EU migration? Will he ever be able to
:00:43. > :00:51.satisfy his backbenchers on Europe? Is Ed Miliband trying to change the
:00:52. > :00:56.tone of PMQ 's? More questions for the week ahead.
:00:57. > :01:02.We are joined by Jacob Rees Mogg from his constituency in Somerset.
:01:03. > :01:09.Welcome to the programme. You one of the 95 Tory backbenchers who signed
:01:10. > :01:12.this letter? Suddenly. Laws should be made by our democratically
:01:13. > :01:20.elected representatives, not from Brussels. How could Europe work with
:01:21. > :01:31.a pick and mix in which each national parliament can decide what
:01:32. > :01:34.Brussels can be in charge of? The European Union is a supernatural
:01:35. > :01:37.body that is there for the cooperation amongst member states to
:01:38. > :01:43.do things that they jointly want to do. It ought not be there to force
:01:44. > :01:47.-- to enforce uniform rules on countries that do not want to
:01:48. > :01:53.participate. It is the vision of Europe that people joined when we
:01:54. > :01:57.signed up to it and came in in 973. It has accreted powers to itself
:01:58. > :02:02.without having the support of the public of the member states. This is
:02:03. > :02:07.just a way of preparing the ground for you to get out of Europe
:02:08. > :02:11.altogether, isn't it? I do not big so. There is a role for an
:02:12. > :02:14.organisation that does some coordination and that has trade
:02:15. > :02:21.agreements within it, I do not think there is a role for a federal state.
:02:22. > :02:25.Europe seems to be dominating the. I remember your leader telling you not
:02:26. > :02:29.to bang on about Europe, your backbench colleagues seem to have
:02:30. > :02:37.ignored that. Would you like to restrict the flow of EU migrants to
:02:38. > :02:41.come to work in this country? Yes. I think we should have control of our
:02:42. > :02:46.own borders, so we can decide who we want to admit for the whole world.
:02:47. > :02:51.What we have at the moment is a restrictive control of people coming
:02:52. > :02:54.from anywhere other than the EU There is a big decrease in the
:02:55. > :02:59.number of New Zealanders who came in the last quarter for which figures
:03:00. > :03:05.are available, but a huge increase in people coming from the continent.
:03:06. > :03:07.Does it really make sense to stop our second cousins coming so that we
:03:08. > :03:13.can allow people freely to come from the continent? I do not think so, we
:03:14. > :03:17.need to have domestic control of our borders in the interests of the
:03:18. > :03:20.United Kingdom. There are still lots more people coming from the rest of
:03:21. > :03:29.the world than from the European Union. That has been changing. But
:03:30. > :03:32.there are still more. A lot more. The permanent residence coming from
:03:33. > :03:39.the European Union are extremely high. In the period when the Labour
:03:40. > :03:45.Party was in charge, we had to put 5 million people coming here, of whom
:03:46. > :03:52.about 1 billion were from Poland. -- we had 2.5 million people coming
:03:53. > :03:56.here. We have no control over them. Like the clock behind you, you are
:03:57. > :04:00.behind the times on these figures. I have stopped the clock for your
:04:01. > :04:07.benefit, because it was going to chime otherwise! I thought that
:04:08. > :04:17.might be distracting! Only a Tory backbencher could stop a clock!
:04:18. > :04:22.Helen, when you at this up, it is preparing to get out, is it not We
:04:23. > :04:26.have had this one bill about a referendum that seems to have tied
:04:27. > :04:33.us up in knots for months on end. If Parliament could scrutinise every
:04:34. > :04:37.piece of EU legislation, we would never get anything else done. It
:04:38. > :04:42.would be incredible. Even Chris Grayling said earlier that you can
:04:43. > :04:49.not have a national veto on anything that the EU proposes. I am surprised
:04:50. > :04:52.that Jacob Rees Mogg is talking about dismantling one of Margaret
:04:53. > :04:58.Thatcher's most important legacies, the creation of the single market,
:04:59. > :05:02.and the person sent there to dream it up under Margaret Thatcher said
:05:03. > :05:06.the only way you can run this sensibly is by not having national
:05:07. > :05:09.vetoes, because if you have that, guess what will happen? The French
:05:10. > :05:14.will impose lots of protectionist measures. It was Margaret
:05:15. > :05:17.Thatcher's idea that national parliaments should never veto. How
:05:18. > :05:29.could you fly in the face of the lady? Even the great lady makes
:05:30. > :05:32.mistakes. Excuse me, Jacob Rees Mogg says even Margaret Thatcher makes
:05:33. > :05:39.mistakes! No wonder the clock has stopped! Even be near divine
:05:40. > :05:47.Margaret made a mistake! But on the single market, it has been used as
:05:48. > :05:50.an excuse for massive origination of domestic affairs. We should be
:05:51. > :05:54.interested in free trade in Europe and allowing people to export and
:05:55. > :05:59.import freely, not to have uniform regulations, as per the single
:06:00. > :06:04.market, because what that allows is thought unelected bureaucrats to
:06:05. > :06:08.determine the regular vision. We want the British people to decide
:06:09. > :06:12.the rules for themselves. If this makes the single market not work,
:06:13. > :06:18.that is not the problem, because we can still have free trade, which is
:06:19. > :06:24.more important. If David Cameron is watching this, I am sure he is, it
:06:25. > :06:29.will be nice for you to come on and give us an interview, he must be
:06:30. > :06:35.worried. He is beginning to think, I am losing control. It is a clever
:06:36. > :06:41.letter, the tone is ingratiating and pleasant, every time, you have stood
:06:42. > :06:45.up to Brussels, you have achieved something, but the content is
:06:46. > :06:49.dramatic. If you want Parliament to have a veto, you want to leave the
:06:50. > :06:54.EU, because the definition is accepting the primacy of European
:06:55. > :06:59.law. The MPs should be clear about that. It is almost a year since the
:07:00. > :07:03.Europe speech in which David Cameron committed to the referendum. The
:07:04. > :07:08.political objective was to put that issue to bed until the next
:07:09. > :07:13.election. It has failed. David Cameron is going to have to pull off
:07:14. > :07:17.a major miracle in any renegotiations to satisfy all of
:07:18. > :07:24.this. Yes, it makes me think how much luckier he has been in
:07:25. > :07:26.coalition with the Liberal Democrats, because there is a bit of
:07:27. > :07:31.the Tory party that is irreconcilable to what he wants to
:07:32. > :07:35.do. The Conservative MPs are making these demands just as David Cameron
:07:36. > :07:40.is seeing the debate goes his way in Europe. Angela Merkel has looked
:07:41. > :07:45.over the cliff and said, do I want the UK out? No, they are a
:07:46. > :07:50.counterbalance to France. France one the UK to leave, but they do not,
:07:51. > :07:56.because they do not want to lose the only realistic military power Tom
:07:57. > :08:01.other than themselves. Just when the debate is going David Cameron's way,
:08:02. > :08:07.Jacob Rees Mogg would take us out. Let me move on to another subject.
:08:08. > :08:12.That is nonsense. The debate is not beginning to go David Cameron's way.
:08:13. > :08:16.We are having before us on Monday a bill about European citizenship and
:08:17. > :08:23.spending British taxpayers money so that Europe can go and say we are
:08:24. > :08:28.all EU citizens, but we signed up to being a part of a multinational
:08:29. > :08:32.organisation. The spin that it is going the way of the leader of a
:08:33. > :08:36.political party is one that has been used before, it was said of John
:08:37. > :08:41.Major, it was untrue then and it is now. It is, for the continuing
:08:42. > :08:51.deeper integration of the European Union. I want to ask a quick
:08:52. > :08:53.question. Chris Grayling said to us that the Tories would devise a way
:08:54. > :08:58.in which the British Supreme Court would be supreme in the proper
:08:59. > :09:01.meaning of that, but we could still be within the European Court of
:09:02. > :09:10.Human Rights. Can that circle be squared? I have no idea, the Lord
:09:11. > :09:14.Chancellor is an able man, and I am sure he is good at squaring circles.
:09:15. > :09:24.I am not worried about whether we remain in the convention or not PMQ
:09:25. > :09:30.'s, we saw a bit about this week, Paul Gorgons had died, so the house
:09:31. > :09:33.was more subdued, but he wants a more subdued and serious prime
:09:34. > :09:39.ministers questions. Let's remind ourselves what it was like until
:09:40. > :09:43.now. What is clear is that he is
:09:44. > :09:47.floundering around and he has no answer to the Labour Party's energy
:09:48. > :09:52.price freeze. The difference is John Major is a good man, the Right
:09:53. > :09:58.Honourable gentleman is acting like a conman. Across the medical
:09:59. > :10:02.profession, they say there is a crisis in accident and emergency,
:10:03. > :10:08.and we have a Prime Minister saying, crisis, what crisis? How out of
:10:09. > :10:12.touch can hate the? You do not need it to be Christmas to know when you
:10:13. > :10:20.are sitting next to a turkey. It is not a bad line. Is Ed Miliband
:10:21. > :10:25.trying to change the tone of prime ministers questions? Is he right to
:10:26. > :10:27.do so? The important point is this was a special prime ministers
:10:28. > :10:34.questions, because everybody was really sad and by the death of Paul
:10:35. > :10:39.Goggins and in the country, the legacy of the floods. That was the
:10:40. > :10:44.first question that Ed Miliband asked about, so that cast a pall
:10:45. > :10:48.over proceedings. When it suits him, Ed Miliband would like to take a
:10:49. > :10:53.more statesman-like stance, but will it last? That is how David Cameron
:10:54. > :10:56.started. His first prime ministers questions, he said to Tony Blair, I
:10:57. > :11:03.would like to support you on education, and he did in a vote
:11:04. > :11:06.which meant Tony Blair could see off a naughty operation from Gordon
:11:07. > :11:12.Brown. But it did not last, they are parties with different visions.
:11:13. > :11:19.Jacob Rees Mogg, would you like to see it more subdued? I like a bit of
:11:20. > :11:23.Punch and Judy. You need to have fierce debate and people putting
:11:24. > :11:28.their views passionately, it is excellent. I am not good at it, I
:11:29. > :11:32.sit there quite quietly, but it is great fun, very exciting, and it is
:11:33. > :11:39.the most watched bit of the House of Commons each week. If it got as dull
:11:40. > :11:45.as ditchwater, nobody would pay attention. Three cheers for Punch
:11:46. > :11:49.and Judy. Ed Miliband is going to make a major speech on the economy
:11:50. > :11:53.this week. You can now define the general approach. We had it from
:11:54. > :12:01.Emma Reynolds, we have seen it over energy prices, this market is bust,
:12:02. > :12:06.the market is not working properly, and that will therefore justify
:12:07. > :12:12.substantial government intervention. Intervention which does not
:12:13. > :12:14.necessarily cost money. It is the deletion and reorganising
:12:15. > :12:17.industries. It constitutes an answer to the question which has been
:12:18. > :12:21.hounding him, what is the point of the Labour Party when there is no
:12:22. > :12:25.money left? He says, you do not spend a huge amount fiscally, but
:12:26. > :12:29.you arrange markets to achieve socially just outcomes without
:12:30. > :12:35.expenditure. It is quite serious stance. I am not sure it will
:12:36. > :12:40.survive the rigours of an election campaign, but it is an answer. Is
:12:41. > :12:44.that an approach, to use broken markets, to justify substantial
:12:45. > :12:50.state intervention? Yes, and the other big plank is infrastructure
:12:51. > :12:53.spending. The Lib Dems would not be against capital investment for info
:12:54. > :12:58.structure will stop Emma Reynolds talking about house-building, the
:12:59. > :13:02.idea of pumping money into the economy through infrastructure is
:13:03. > :13:06.something that the Labour Party will look at. Jacob Rees Mogg, you once
:13:07. > :13:12.thought Somerset should have its own time zone, and today, you have
:13:13. > :13:20.delivered on that promise! Live on the Sunday Politics! I try to
:13:21. > :13:24.deliver on my promises! That is all for today, the Daily
:13:25. > :13:29.Politics is on BBC Two every day this week, just before lunch. I
:13:30. > :13:34.aren't back next Sunday here on BBC One at 11am. -- I am back. If it is
:13:35. > :13:40.Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.