:00:36. > :00:43.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says
:00:44. > :00:48.Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask
:00:49. > :00:53.senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.
:00:54. > :00:56.What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the
:00:57. > :01:08.views of a Sunday Politics focus group.
:01:09. > :01:23.The undercover investigators claim that hunts regularly breaking the
:01:24. > :15:19.law and he did not make the announcement? I
:15:20. > :15:25.don't think that's right. I don t clear every word I say with him I
:15:26. > :15:33.don't expect him to do the same to me. The Lib Dems have told us before
:15:34. > :15:39.it was the Treasury that was blocking this from happening. We
:15:40. > :15:44.were going to ask the low pay commission to advise us on bringing
:15:45. > :15:49.the minimum wage back up. During the financial crisis, wages have been
:15:50. > :15:58.lower-than-expected but it's also right, we shouldn't act in a hasty
:15:59. > :16:03.way, we should listen to what the commission has to say, and if they
:16:04. > :16:08.don't recommend an increase we have to make sure economic conditions are
:16:09. > :16:13.there to get it right. Not only are the Tories getting credit for that,
:16:14. > :16:18.our Scottish voters group showed that people have still not forgiven
:16:19. > :16:22.you for ratting on tuition fees and that was a broken promise that
:16:23. > :16:28.didn't even apply to the people in Scotland, where there are no tuition
:16:29. > :16:36.fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear about the issues that that brought
:16:37. > :16:41.up. If you look at our manifesto, the University of London said we
:16:42. > :16:46.delivered about 70% of our policies in the manifesto. They haven't
:16:47. > :16:55.forgiven you for the big one. The big promise we made was to cut
:16:56. > :17:02.income tax the millions of people. That is a policy which is putting
:17:03. > :17:06.money back into the pockets of working people. It is only possible
:17:07. > :17:10.because we are delivering our economic plan in government with the
:17:11. > :17:17.Conservatives. Now we have to make sure, through tax cuts, through
:17:18. > :17:20.looking at issues like the minimum wage and other groups who have made
:17:21. > :17:27.sacrifices, make sure that benefit is shared. I am not going to agree
:17:28. > :17:31.to anything which undermines the confidence of businesses to invest
:17:32. > :17:40.in this country over the next 1 months. Speaking of Scotland, the
:17:41. > :17:44.Lib Dems, why do they now look largely irrelevant in the battle for
:17:45. > :17:50.the union? Not one of our focus group even knew who your Scottish
:17:51. > :17:57.leader is. I don't accept that. I have spent a lot of time with
:17:58. > :18:03.Alistair Carmichael and others, we are all making the case every day.
:18:04. > :18:08.If Scotland votes to be independent, it will be in a much worse financial
:18:09. > :18:15.position within the European Union. Scotland will be contributing to the
:18:16. > :18:20.rebate for the UK, rather than benefiting from it. It has been a
:18:21. > :18:25.disaster for your Scottish based to have joined a coalition with the
:18:26. > :18:29.Tories. It may have been the right thing to do, you say it is in the
:18:30. > :18:35.national interest, but Scottish Lib Dems did not expect to be in a
:18:36. > :18:38.coalition with the Tories. By the way I think it is also in the
:18:39. > :18:45.national interests and the interests of the people for Scotland, cutting
:18:46. > :18:51.the income tax of Scottish people, stabilising the economy. We are now
:18:52. > :18:58.seeing good growth. But you are in meltdown. I don't accept that. We
:18:59. > :19:04.will see what happens in the 20 5 election. I think we have a record
:19:05. > :19:08.to be proud of, we have played a very important role in clearing up
:19:09. > :19:11.the mess Labour made in the economy, of making sure the
:19:12. > :19:18.Coalition government tackles the problems in this country, but does
:19:19. > :19:22.so in a fair way. I think the biggest risks to the economic
:19:23. > :19:26.recovery over the next few years is either a majority Labour government
:19:27. > :19:31.or a majority Conservative government. Labour you cannot trust
:19:32. > :19:35.with the finances, the Tories want us to play chicken with the European
:19:36. > :19:39.Union which would truly be a disaster to investment in this
:19:40. > :19:44.country. You announced this week that if Scotland votes to leave the
:19:45. > :19:50.UK, it would be the British Treasury that would guarantee all British
:19:51. > :19:54.government debt. There wouldn't be a negotiation, but the backstop would
:19:55. > :19:58.be that even if they didn't take anything, we would still guarantee
:19:59. > :20:03.the debt. What was happening in the markets that you needed to calm them
:20:04. > :20:10.down? We were getting quite a few questions from the people we rely on
:20:11. > :20:14.to lend us money. We are still borrowing billions of pounds every
:20:15. > :20:25.month as a country. Those people were asking us to clarify this
:20:26. > :20:32.point. It was becoming a serious concern? It wasn't reflected in the
:20:33. > :20:37.guilty yields. I follow the bond market quite carefully and there was
:20:38. > :20:43.no sign this was having an impact. That's why the right thing to do was
:20:44. > :20:49.to clarify this point now, rather than the concerns being reflected in
:20:50. > :20:52.what you imply, and I think it is a bad idea for Scotland to vote for
:20:53. > :20:56.separation but it would be wrong to allow for the fact that question is
:20:57. > :20:59.on the table to cost taxpayers in the UK more money and higher
:21:00. > :21:04.interest payments simply because Alex Salmond has put that question
:21:05. > :21:09.on the table. That's why I think it was the right thing to do. There
:21:10. > :21:15.were a lot of calls from the focus group that you need to be different.
:21:16. > :21:19.Nick Clegg has embarked on this aggressive differentiation. Where
:21:20. > :21:24.you can be different is the bankers' bonuses. What conceivable
:21:25. > :21:32.reason could there be for anybody at RBS getting a bonus twice in their
:21:33. > :21:38.salary? We have not been approached by RBS in terms of those votes. I
:21:39. > :21:44.would be sceptical about an approach from RBS if it can. It shows what we
:21:45. > :21:53.have presided over as a party in government, massive reductions. .
:21:54. > :22:02.I'm not asking you about that, I'm asking what conceivable case there
:22:03. > :22:05.can be for a bank that has failed to sell its branches even though
:22:06. > :22:11.ordered by the Government, still has 38 billion of toxic debt on its
:22:12. > :22:16.balance sheet, I ask again what possible reason should they get
:22:17. > :22:26.twice salary as a bonus? Your right to say RBS is in a very different
:22:27. > :22:31.position to other banks, it is mostly owned by the state. RBS
:22:32. > :22:35.hasn't put a case to us but they might do so I would like to look at
:22:36. > :22:38.what they would say, but I would be sceptical as to whether a case could
:22:39. > :22:43.be made given some of the things you said, but also the fact that it is a
:22:44. > :22:50.bank that has benefited from the taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS
:22:51. > :22:55.has to focus more on domestic retail. Let me turn to Chris
:22:56. > :23:01.Rennard, ten women have accused him of sexual harassment. He denies
:23:02. > :23:07.every case. Who do you believe? We have been through a process on this
:23:08. > :23:16.as a party. A report has been issued on this. I agree with Alistair
:23:17. > :23:20.Webster on this, he has made clear that while he cannot prove what
:23:21. > :23:25.happened to a criminal standard that there is clear there has been
:23:26. > :23:30.considerable distress and harm caused. I agree with him about that
:23:31. > :23:39.and that's why it is necessary for Chris Rennard to apologise as he has
:23:40. > :23:45.been asked to do. If he refuses to apologise, should he be denied the
:23:46. > :23:48.Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't think he should be readmitted to the
:23:49. > :23:53.Liberal Democrat group in the House of Lords until such time as the
:23:54. > :23:59.disciplinary process, including the apology, has been done properly We
:24:00. > :24:02.are very democratic party, it is a matter for our group in the House of
:24:03. > :24:08.Lords in due course to make that judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of
:24:09. > :24:12.complaints from party members about the fact no apology has been made.
:24:13. > :24:16.The appropriate committee would need to look at that and decide what
:24:17. > :24:23.action needs to be taken because these are very serious matters. We
:24:24. > :24:29.as a party have learned a lot, taken a long, hard look at ourselves, to
:24:30. > :24:36.change the way we work. The apology does need to be made. We are told
:24:37. > :24:39.that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of the Liberal Democrats in the House
:24:40. > :24:44.of Lords, we are told he has shaken hands with Chris Rennard and
:24:45. > :24:52.welcomed him back. That decision has not been taken yet. I think Lord
:24:53. > :25:00.Newby would share my view on this. Have you shaken his hand and
:25:01. > :25:06.welcomed him back? No, I haven't. Does Nick Clegg have the power to
:25:07. > :25:11.deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am making it clear that a lack of
:25:12. > :25:16.apology is totally unacceptable and therefore we have to take steps if
:25:17. > :25:22.that is not forthcoming. His view and my view is that Lord Rennard
:25:23. > :25:29.should not be readmitted to the House of Lords if that is not
:25:30. > :25:36.forthcoming. In our party, our group in the House of Lords has two in the
:25:37. > :25:43.end take a view for itself. And they can override Nick Clegg's view? I
:25:44. > :25:50.hope that when they look at this... Do they have the power to override
:25:51. > :25:59.Nick Clegg? They have the power to decide who should be the whip. The
:26:00. > :26:06.failure to follow up the simple human demand for an apology for the
:26:07. > :26:17.stress that has been caused is totally unacceptable. Your party is
:26:18. > :26:27.totally down lighted on this -- divided on this. Here is what Lord
:26:28. > :26:34.Carlile had to say. A total nonsense, hyperbole. It is a
:26:35. > :26:38.ridiculous statement to make and we have seen Alistair Webster, the QC
:26:39. > :26:42.who did this investigation, comment on that himself this morning. He has
:26:43. > :26:47.followed the process the party laid down in its rules, which sets the
:26:48. > :26:52.standard for the investigation which asked him to report on the evidence
:26:53. > :27:00.he has found, but he also has a duty of confidentiality and
:27:01. > :27:04.responsibility under the data protection legislation as well. Here
:27:05. > :27:16.is what your activists have said in a letter to the Guardian. This shows
:27:17. > :27:22.there are strong opinions, but why should Chris Rennard apologise for
:27:23. > :27:27.something he denies, unproven allegations, on an unpublished
:27:28. > :27:30.report that Chris Rennard has not been allowed to read? He should
:27:31. > :27:34.apologise because he wants to continue to be a member of the
:27:35. > :27:40.Liberal Democrats and this is the recommendation that has been made by
:27:41. > :27:46.the internal disciplinary process. Webster himself said this was not an
:27:47. > :27:52.inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris Rennard apologises on this basis, he
:27:53. > :27:58.opens himself to civil lawsuits He says he is not going to do it. As a
:27:59. > :28:03.Liberal Democrat you join the party because you believe in its values,
:28:04. > :28:09.you abide by its rules. One of those rules is that we have a process if
:28:10. > :28:15.there are disciplinary allegations. The committee of the party supported
:28:16. > :28:18.Webster's recommendations, one of which was that an apology should be
:28:19. > :28:26.made because he clearly found distress had been caused. Will there
:28:27. > :28:36.now be a proper inquiry? I don't think any of these legalistic
:28:37. > :28:44.things, I don't think he can have it both ways. Will there be a proper
:28:45. > :28:48.inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a proper inquiry. There was a proper
:28:49. > :28:51.report into what happened at the time and we have learned a lot from
:28:52. > :28:57.this is a party, and the most important thing now is that Chris
:28:58. > :29:08.Rennard apologises. You have made that clear. What kind of biscuits
:29:09. > :29:15.are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on the inside? It is good of you to be
:29:16. > :29:20.advertising a Scottish product. We just wondered if you weren't tough
:29:21. > :29:39.enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank you. More than tough enough is the
:29:40. > :29:42.answer to that. Generally governments are a bit
:29:43. > :29:45.rubbish at IT projects. They tend to run way over budget and never quite
:29:46. > :29:48.achieve what they promised. So the revelations of a former spy that the
:29:49. > :29:51.US and British security agencies were in fact astonishingly efficient
:29:52. > :29:54.at eavesdropping on the digital communications of their citizens
:29:55. > :29:56.came as a bit shock. But just how worried should we be about their
:29:57. > :29:58.clandestine activity? In his latest revelation, former US
:29:59. > :30:00.by Edward Snowden has claimed that America's National Security Agency
:30:01. > :30:06.operates a secret database called Dishfire. It collect 200 million
:30:07. > :30:13.mobile phone messages every day from around the world, accessed, he says,
:30:14. > :30:16.why British and American spies. This week, the president has outlined a
:30:17. > :30:21.series of surveillance reforms, including Ning to the storage of the
:30:22. > :30:27.phone call information of millions of Americans, and no Morse -- and no
:30:28. > :30:37.more spying on allies like Angela Merkel. Critics say that the British
:30:38. > :30:41.intelligence agencies have refused to acknowledge even the need for a
:30:42. > :30:45.debate on the issue. The Foreign Secretary William six says that we
:30:46. > :30:53.have a very strong system of checks and balances. -- William Hague. ??
:30:54. > :30:56.new line Nick Pickles is director of the pressure group Big Brother
:30:57. > :30:58.Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in on Parliament's Intelligence And
:30:59. > :31:09.Security Committee. They're here to go head to head.
:31:10. > :31:14.Welcome to both of you. Hazel Blears, let me come to you first.
:31:15. > :31:17.President Obama has made some major changes as a result of what we have
:31:18. > :31:24.learned that the NSA in America was up to. But British politicians seem
:31:25. > :31:29.to, they are not up for this kind of thing, they are hoping it will go
:31:30. > :31:33.away? It is not going away and that is why my committee, the
:31:34. > :31:36.Intelligence And Security Committee, has decided to launch an enquiry
:31:37. > :31:44.into whether the legal framework is up-to-date. We have had massive
:31:45. > :31:50.technological change. We have had a call for evidence. Some of the
:31:51. > :31:54.sessions will be open so that people can see what the evidence is.
:31:55. > :31:58.Obviously some of the information will have to be classified, but on
:31:59. > :32:02.the committee, there is a real commitment to say, there is a big
:32:03. > :32:07.debate going on, let's see if the system is as Rob asked as we can
:32:08. > :32:10.make it. The big question is oversight and the call for evidence
:32:11. > :32:14.that the committee has issued is not mention oversight. It is ten years
:32:15. > :32:22.since the Foreign Affairs Committee said that the committee should be a
:32:23. > :32:29.fully elected committee chosen by Parliament and not the Prime
:32:30. > :32:33.Minister. It has changed, actually. The Prime Minister nominates people
:32:34. > :32:41.and the house gets to him -- gets to approve. In America, they have a
:32:42. > :32:49.separation of power, the president does not nominate Kennedy.
:32:50. > :32:54.Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an establishment lackey? I do not think
:32:55. > :32:58.so. Most of the people on the committee have some experience of
:32:59. > :33:02.intelligence and these issues. In this country, we have robust
:33:03. > :33:06.scrutiny, compared to some of her European neighbours. We have
:33:07. > :33:12.Parliamentary scrutiny, the interception commissioners, and
:33:13. > :33:16.ministers have to sign the warrants. But there may be room for
:33:17. > :33:22.improvement, which is why we are having the enquiry. Do not forget,
:33:23. > :33:26.President Obama said that the agency should not have the ability to
:33:27. > :33:31.collect data, he wanted to put more safeguards in. That is essential for
:33:32. > :33:34.the work of the agencies. If you cannot see the data, you cannot take
:33:35. > :33:39.the connections and see the patterns. Some people never talk
:33:40. > :33:44.about the threat from terrorism it is all about travesty. There are
:33:45. > :33:49.several thousand people in this country, as we are talking, who are
:33:50. > :33:54.actively planning to do a country harm. When this debate started in
:33:55. > :33:58.the US, the NSA head stood up and said there are 54 plots that have
:33:59. > :34:06.been detected by this capability that has detected and that in bulk.
:34:07. > :34:11.Now the head of the NSA has admitted that the number is actually zero. It
:34:12. > :34:17.is not the intelligence committee in the US that did the work to reduce
:34:18. > :34:22.that number, it was a Judiciary Committee. The fact that we have two
:34:23. > :34:28.different bodies doing this in this country, it means that you do not
:34:29. > :34:31.get the correct view. How can people have confidence in a body when if
:34:32. > :34:37.you go around Europe, for example, or the world, we are not at the end
:34:38. > :34:42.not requiring judges to not sign warrants? I do not accept that the
:34:43. > :34:49.committee failed on that range of issues. You look at the reports on
:34:50. > :34:53.7/7. Two reports by the committee get to the heart of it. If you look
:34:54. > :34:59.at that terrorist attack on our country, people will say, why did
:35:00. > :35:04.you not have them on the radar? The agencies are between a rock and a
:35:05. > :35:09.hard race. They have got to be subject to oversight, but beanie
:35:10. > :35:16.capability. Did you know about Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular
:35:17. > :35:21.basis and I know about the capabilities that we have got. Some
:35:22. > :35:28.of the names of these programmes, we would not necessarily know. But did
:35:29. > :35:33.you know that GCHQ had the capability to use Dishfire, or to
:35:34. > :35:39.get Dishfire material from the NSA? I knew and my committee knew that we
:35:40. > :35:43.had the capability to collect data, and these days, people do not write
:35:44. > :35:49.letters, they do not use landline telephones, they use the Internet
:35:50. > :35:51.and text in, so it is important that the agencies are able to keep up
:35:52. > :35:59.with that take the logical change. What should happen? The proper legal
:36:00. > :36:03.framework should include, if a company is cooperating, as Google
:36:04. > :36:09.and Facebook do, it should be illegal for GCHQ to hack into them.
:36:10. > :36:15.In the US, Lundberg estimate that this has driven a 35mm and hole in
:36:16. > :36:19.the US economy because people do not trust but there are systems are
:36:20. > :36:23.secure. We need to know that GCHQ are not trying to use a different
:36:24. > :36:27.door into the system, whether by hacking or foreign intelligence We
:36:28. > :36:35.need judicial oversight with judges and not politicians signing off The
:36:36. > :36:39.final 30 seconds to you. As a result of the changes in the Justice and
:36:40. > :36:43.Security act, the committee is accountable to Parliament and not
:36:44. > :36:47.the Prime Minister. Those changes are taking place, and I am up for
:36:48. > :36:52.the debate if we need more change or not. But I want British agencies to
:36:53. > :36:58.have more power to protect the people in this country. Thank you to
:36:59. > :37:01.both of you. It's coming up to 11:40. You're watching the Sunday
:37:02. > :37:04.Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, we'll get the verdict of
:37:05. > :37:30.the Minister for Portsmouth on that dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch!
:37:31. > :37:43.Hello. You're watching Sunday Politics for
:37:44. > :37:48.Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Coming up today: The undercover
:37:49. > :37:51.investigators who claim that hunts regularly breaking the law and
:37:52. > :38:00.subjecting foxes to extreme cruelty. We ask whether the hunting ban has
:38:01. > :38:03.become unenforceable. And in a week when David Cameron
:38:04. > :38:06.came north to promote shale gas exploration, we will also be
:38:07. > :38:09.discussing fracking with our guests today. The Labour MP for Wakefield
:38:10. > :38:12.and Shadow Transport Secretary Mary Creagh and Conservative MP for
:38:13. > :38:16.Pudsey Stuart Andrew. First, we are going to talk rural bus services.
:38:17. > :38:21.Fares on many services, especially in the evenings or weekends, do not
:38:22. > :38:24.cover the cost of running them. Traditionally local councils have
:38:25. > :38:27.chipped in to meet the losses by faced by operators to ensure that
:38:28. > :38:29.passengers are left not stranded. However, with local authorities
:38:30. > :38:32.across Yorkshire and Lincolnshire facing a financial squeeze, bus
:38:33. > :38:43.subsidies in many areas are being slashed.
:38:44. > :38:50.Passengers are having to get used to waiting a bit longer for some of
:38:51. > :38:54.their buses these days. Here in Saltaire on the edge of Bradford,
:38:55. > :38:59.the 679 used to pick up at this bus stop every half hour. It doesn't any
:39:00. > :39:08.more. We have just one bus and hour daytime only. There is not enough
:39:09. > :39:13.passengers on this route to make this service pay its way. How does
:39:14. > :39:17.the service keep going? It is paid for by West Yorkshire Metro as a
:39:18. > :39:26.social service for people in this area. They are not seen as glamorous
:39:27. > :39:32.like trains and trams, so politicians tend to push them to one
:39:33. > :39:35.side. In fact the vast majority of people go into cities by bus,
:39:36. > :39:39.cycling or walking. It's not cheap to run a bus. It's estimated that
:39:40. > :39:42.every day on the road cost around ?300. Even so, the vast majority of
:39:43. > :39:45.services are commercially profitable. Only around 15% require
:39:46. > :39:47.any form of subsidy. Those subsidies, largely through local
:39:48. > :39:53.authorities, are being squeezed hard. It is estimated that over our
:39:54. > :39:58.region they have been cut over the last two years by at least 25%. And
:39:59. > :40:09.campaigns are springing up in many places as the squeeze on local bus
:40:10. > :40:12.services becomes tighter. This is a timetable from 12 months ago and
:40:13. > :40:19.there were six or seven services running through to my village. I've
:40:20. > :40:22.lived here for 28 years. You tend to structure your life round these
:40:23. > :40:32.services. At a stroke, they have just been withdrawn. This man and
:40:33. > :40:36.his family live on the edge of York and was happy to add his name to a
:40:37. > :40:38.petition calling for help after loss`making local bus services were
:40:39. > :40:42.progressively cut. Clearly, there was a considerable outcry in the
:40:43. > :40:45.area as evidenced by the fact that 105 people have so far bothered to
:40:46. > :40:50.reply to our petition. That's 105 households out of a possible 400.
:40:51. > :40:57.Clearly there is strong body of opinion that the bus service is no
:40:58. > :41:00.longer fit for purpose. It's causing a fundamental switch in public
:41:01. > :41:03.transport provision according to this campaign who teaches on the
:41:04. > :41:06.subject at Huddersfield University. All these services are under the
:41:07. > :41:11.microscope. It is really quite appalling the situation facing
:41:12. > :41:16.public transport. We are seeing the Beeching of the buses across England
:41:17. > :41:29.at the moment. Many places will lose bus services in their entirety. That
:41:30. > :41:35.is certainly the case here. The last bus from this stop is now at 6:30pm
:41:36. > :41:42.in the evening. The county council has had to cut subsidies on
:41:43. > :41:45.loss`making evening services. I think we need a better deal from
:41:46. > :41:49.central government to bring funding in and for it to be ringfenced by
:41:50. > :41:53.the county council for transport. It is very hard. And it is going to get
:41:54. > :41:56.worse. Over the next few weeks, councils will decide how to allocate
:41:57. > :41:59.their even smaller resources. At off`peak times, the wait for the
:42:00. > :42:02.next bus is likely to get even longer.
:42:03. > :42:16.With many councils now counting the pennies, isn't it inevitable that
:42:17. > :42:20.some bus services will be slashed? What we have seems in this
:42:21. > :42:23.government has come in is a huge reduction, a 25% cut, in the amount
:42:24. > :42:26.of subsidies councils are getting to run those rural non`commercial boss
:42:27. > :42:29.services. That has led to fears growing up by nearly 5% and
:42:30. > :42:32.passenger numbers following which leads to a downward spiral. That
:42:33. > :42:35.affects certain communities more than others. It particularly affects
:42:36. > :42:39.young people and older people. There is no good having a pensioners bus
:42:40. > :42:44.pass if there are no bus services for them to use. We heard the phrase
:42:45. > :42:47.a Beeching of the busses. That is what we are looking at in many
:42:48. > :42:50.places. Services will be decimated, won't they? These are difficult
:42:51. > :42:59.times and difficult decisions are having to be made. The government is
:43:00. > :43:02.doing what it can. It is ringfencing funding and devolving much of the
:43:03. > :43:07.funding to local councils so they can work with local bus operators
:43:08. > :43:09.better. They know their communities better and provide the services
:43:10. > :43:15.those communities need. You mentioned a free bus pass for
:43:16. > :43:18.pensioners. Some would say that wealthier pensioners should not be
:43:19. > :43:21.entitled to bus passes and that money could be used to subsidise
:43:22. > :43:25.local services. The way that those bus passes are funded is through a
:43:26. > :43:35.grant so it doesn't make sense to cut it for one section and not the
:43:36. > :43:38.other. It is a universal benefit. We think it would be better to give
:43:39. > :43:44.transport excecutives the ability to regulate their services again. That
:43:45. > :43:49.is the way they can specify the services they want, commission them
:43:50. > :43:53.as we see and London. `` in London. There there is a thriving transport
:43:54. > :43:57.system. Are you pledging to reverse every bus cut in the country? Could
:43:58. > :44:00.you pay for that? We think we could use the money better by allowing
:44:01. > :44:04.local authorities to have better regulation. At the moment it is a
:44:05. > :44:07.free for all. We need to look at a concessionary scheme for young
:44:08. > :44:16.people because they are being priced out of education and further
:44:17. > :44:20.education and training. I suspect people will look at HS2 and the
:44:21. > :44:23.billions that will cost and say a tiny fraction of that money spent on
:44:24. > :44:27.busses would improve the lives of many people in rural communities. We
:44:28. > :44:34.have a finite amount of money on all these projects. We need to make sure
:44:35. > :44:37.we spend that money wisely. Is it sensible to subsidise a service that
:44:38. > :44:45.has one or two passengers when there are other services we could help. If
:44:46. > :44:48.you price people of the busses, they will take the logical alternative
:44:49. > :44:53.which is to go to minicabs, if there are a couple of people going in that
:44:54. > :44:58.is often cheaper. You have to allow people the chance. You have to have
:44:59. > :45:11.better information and make it easier for disabled people to get on
:45:12. > :45:13.the busses. The government has failed to drive up disability
:45:14. > :45:17.accessability and failed to insist on a national training scheme for
:45:18. > :45:27.drivers. All of that would cost a lot more money. Guide Dogs for the
:45:28. > :45:33.Blind are doing it for free. I was with them in Wakefield. It doesn't
:45:34. > :45:39.cost anything. No charity can write something free of charge. They were
:45:40. > :45:47.out in Wakefield bus station. It is easy to sit here and say it is
:45:48. > :45:53.awful. Is the money coming from? `` where is. We always hear the
:45:54. > :45:54.criticisms of the cuts but we never hear the solutions from the Labour
:45:55. > :45:58.Party. Let's move on. Nine years have
:45:59. > :46:03.passed since the controversial hunting act came into being. After
:46:04. > :46:06.protests, counter`protests and much debate at Westminster, hunting with
:46:07. > :46:09.dogs was outlawed by Parliament. But anti`hunt campaigners insist the law
:46:10. > :46:18.is being regularly flouted in by hunts and foxes are being killed
:46:19. > :46:26.illegally. We are here today to look at a fox
:46:27. > :46:30.hunt. We have had information come into us to indicate people could be
:46:31. > :46:37.breaking the law. We have come to check it out. He has been verbally
:46:38. > :46:50.abused, assaulted and trapped. `` tracked. Paul Tilsley spends his
:46:51. > :47:07.life watching and waiting. A lot of hunts are blatantly flouting the
:47:08. > :47:11.law. They are using methods that look on the face of it look legal,
:47:12. > :47:15.but they are illegal. But when you watch them, we see illegal activity
:47:16. > :47:18.a lot of the time. Most times we are out, we see illegal activity. We
:47:19. > :47:29.don't always get enough evidence to take them to court. This footage led
:47:30. > :47:32.to four members of the Middleton Hunt pleading guilty to illegal
:47:33. > :47:49.hunting last year. It shows a hunted fox hiding in hay bales. It is
:47:50. > :47:53.surrounded. On the left of the screen, the fox bolts the hay bales
:47:54. > :47:56.with the hounds chasing it. The hunt master is seen blowing his horn to
:47:57. > :47:59.announce the kill. That is not uncommon for this area of the
:48:00. > :48:02.country, unfortunately. We get information from various hunts in
:48:03. > :48:05.this area. What they are doing is stretching the law or just blatantly
:48:06. > :48:09.illegal, depending on whether they think someone is watching them or
:48:10. > :48:13.not. It is the cruelty aspect that really gets me. That is why I do
:48:14. > :48:16.this job. Because I don't like the cruelty. This footage from Boxing
:48:17. > :48:18.Day shows the threat of being investigated has done little to dent
:48:19. > :48:21.numbers. The Countryside Alliance estimate there were 5,000 more
:48:22. > :48:32.people hunting now than before the ban. The see hunting as symbolic of
:48:33. > :48:35.the way the countryside wants to continue with traditions and be
:48:36. > :48:38.allowed to continue to decide how it behaves, how it acts and what is
:48:39. > :48:41.legal and what is not. Without interference, as they would see it,
:48:42. > :48:45.from urban minded governments and animal rights activists. We asked
:48:46. > :48:48.local hunts to talk to us about the allegations about their conduct. We
:48:49. > :49:01.also asked to attend a hunt. They all declined our invitation. People
:49:02. > :49:05.may be confused from time to time but the bottom line is they are
:49:06. > :49:08.operating under this law and there have been a tiny number of cases
:49:09. > :49:11.where hunts have even gone to court, let alone been convicted. We asked
:49:12. > :49:16.Humberside and Lincolnshire Police about their tactics on hunting.
:49:17. > :49:25.Humberside Police forced the second`highest prosecution rate in
:49:26. > :49:27.the country under the hunting act. Lincolnshire Police told us that
:49:28. > :49:30.although they will investigate allegations of illegal activity,
:49:31. > :49:33.they don't regularly monitor hunts. While that is happening, Paul will
:49:34. > :49:43.not give up. Let us know when they are coming our way. Give us a heads
:49:44. > :49:46.up. We have been out here waiting for quite a few hours already,
:49:47. > :49:52.waiting for a hunt to go past that Paul has intelligence on. The League
:49:53. > :49:55.Against Cruel Sports now has ten investigators working seven days a
:49:56. > :49:58.week. Paul suspect a lone rider spots and warns others of his
:49:59. > :50:02.hideout. The usual route is changed and he is on the move again. It is a
:50:03. > :50:11.tense situation. The monitors say their aim is to stop animal cruelty.
:50:12. > :50:14.The hunts men strive to protect what they consider their rights as
:50:15. > :50:25.custodians of the countryside. It is unlikely the two will ever agree.
:50:26. > :50:28.We have been joined now by Tim Easby, director of the Master of the
:50:29. > :50:33.Foxhounds Association based in North Yorkshire. How do you respond to
:50:34. > :50:39.these accusations that many people are now hunting illegally? Well, I
:50:40. > :50:43.think if you remember that the act came in in 2005 and we have had one
:50:44. > :50:50.prosecution against the Middleton which was successful. Since 2005.
:50:51. > :51:06.That's absolutely saying it all for me. We have only had one. For the
:51:07. > :51:10.police to say they have been most successful against using the hunting
:51:11. > :51:13.act, I think what we must bear in mind is that actually 97% of the
:51:14. > :51:18.convictions they are talking about are for poaching. There are not
:51:19. > :51:21.against recognised hunts. Are you saying that hunts are not flouting
:51:22. > :51:25.the law and foxes are not being killed by dogs? I am saying that
:51:26. > :51:29.hunts are acting within the law. In the case of the Middleton Hunt, they
:51:30. > :51:33.knew they should have shot the Fox and they were in the wrong. Has
:51:34. > :51:46.Labour's hunting act become unenforceable? I don't think so and
:51:47. > :51:56.I am proud Labour brought in the ban for this barbaric sport. I am
:51:57. > :51:59.concerned the government has not supported the police and given
:52:00. > :52:03.proper funding to the Wildlife Crime Unit, so it is only being funded on
:52:04. > :52:08.an annual basis. That is a concern for specialist role forces that have
:52:09. > :52:11.real expertise in this area. It is not just for hunting, but also
:52:12. > :52:14.hare`coursing and other areas where there has been a lot of incidents.
:52:15. > :52:26.Are you saying police resources should be given to have officers
:52:27. > :52:35.enforcing this law? A tiny number of police officers are involved in
:52:36. > :52:38.this. This is about making sure we don't have wildlife crime committed
:52:39. > :52:41.abroad so we don't have a legal rhino horn or illegally trapped
:52:42. > :52:44.monkeys and rare species being brought in. There is about
:52:45. > :52:46.protecting our borders and making sure we are not involved in
:52:47. > :52:49.international wildlife trade. There is an important role for police in
:52:50. > :52:53.tackling animal cruelty. David Cameron has said there will be a
:52:54. > :52:58.free vote at some stage. When are we going to see the free vote to act on
:52:59. > :53:02.the hunting act? That is way above my pay grade. That has been a
:53:03. > :53:05.commitment that has been made for an appropriate time. I would argue
:53:06. > :53:08.there are a lot of other important things to cover just now. The
:53:09. > :53:12.economy and public services and so on. We really must work on those.
:53:13. > :53:21.That has been a commitment which has been made. We will wait and see when
:53:22. > :53:25.that date comes. We have had a backbench business debate every
:53:26. > :53:29.Thursday. Any time you want to have a debate on fox hunting, we will see
:53:30. > :53:42.you there. David Cameron knows that he will lose the vote. He is
:53:43. > :53:45.offering rural heartlands a little ray of hope but he knows it is
:53:46. > :53:49.completely undeliverable. Tony Blair is on record as saying it is the
:53:50. > :53:59.thing that he did that he most regrets. I find it odd that you sit
:54:00. > :54:02.here and say you are proud of what the Labour Party did in banning
:54:03. > :54:06.hunting when your own Prime Minister, the then leader of your
:54:07. > :54:09.party, said it was the one measure he regretted most. He is no longer
:54:10. > :54:13.the Prime Minister or a Member of Parliament. This is the law of the
:54:14. > :54:20.land. Nobody is above the law of the land. It was brought in on prejudice
:54:21. > :54:23.and not on any scientific facts. The permanent private secretary to Alan
:54:24. > :54:27.Michael at the time is on record of saying this is about class warfare
:54:28. > :54:30.and not animal welfare. What is the point you're making about prejudice?
:54:31. > :54:35.This is about class warfare and not animal welfare. This is about
:54:36. > :54:38.tackling cruelty to wild animals. It is a piece of legislation supported
:54:39. > :54:41.by the majority of the population, whether they live in rural
:54:42. > :54:46.populations or in towns and cities. It is the law of the land and should
:54:47. > :54:52.be upheld by police and respected by those it affects. The latest poll
:54:53. > :54:58.suggested that 80% of the British public were in favour of maintaining
:54:59. > :55:01.the hunting ban. Surely it would be a retrograde step to allow people to
:55:02. > :55:09.kill foxes and other animals with dogs again? No, I think we should be
:55:10. > :55:11.absolutely clear that the poll conducted before Christmas, if you
:55:12. > :55:15.ask people inflammatory questions like, is it right we set dogs on
:55:16. > :55:18.each other or animals against each other to fight each other? If you
:55:19. > :55:24.ask those questions, you will get the results they got. If you look at
:55:25. > :55:30.the poll conducted for the BBC, less than 50% of the public said that
:55:31. > :55:33.there should be a ban. It is all about how you ask the questions. If
:55:34. > :55:41.you ask inflammatory questions, you will get that result. Briefly, is
:55:42. > :55:45.this a good use of parliamentary time to go through all this again? I
:55:46. > :55:51.have made it clear that I support the ban. If there is to be a debate
:55:52. > :55:55.to review it, so be it. I personally think we have very many more
:55:56. > :56:00.important things to be looking at at this stage. I agree. There is not a
:56:01. > :56:10.lot of legislation going through Parliament at the moment. But I
:56:11. > :56:13.think we need to get on with tackling David Cameron's cost of
:56:14. > :56:18.living crisis and making the country a decent place to live again. Which
:56:19. > :56:27.we are doing. He reckons! Thank you for putting your point of view for
:56:28. > :56:30.word today. Thank you. Let's get some more of the week's
:56:31. > :56:37.political news now with our round`up in 60 seconds. Labour politicians
:56:38. > :57:00.have labelled financial offers being made to communities which accept
:57:01. > :57:02.fracking as being pathetic. An oil and gas company representative
:57:03. > :57:09.denies councils are receiving bribes. I don't think it is a bribe.
:57:10. > :57:15.I think it is a reward for hosting sites on behalf of others in the
:57:16. > :57:18.country. Total will be drilling at two licensed site in Lincolnshire
:57:19. > :57:21.where fracking is already taking place. The Prime Minister headed
:57:22. > :57:25.north to give the plan and the policy as a whole his full backing.
:57:26. > :57:35.People can already see that this is a safe and successful industry
:57:36. > :57:38.employing local people. While the government says it is totally
:57:39. > :57:41.committed to fracking, Labour MEP Linda Machover and says it should
:57:42. > :57:43.not forget climate change and carbon capture projects in Lincolnshire.
:57:44. > :57:46.Companies investing will not wait forever. They are looking for
:57:47. > :57:49.political signals and clarity that people want this technology. If we
:57:50. > :57:53.can get the technology up and running, it will create 2000 jobs
:57:54. > :57:56.for our region. We can't afford not to have those. How will David
:57:57. > :58:00.Cameron convince the public fracking is a good idea? This is a very
:58:01. > :58:03.difficult issue, of course. It is something very new to many of us. I
:58:04. > :58:07.am no scientist or geologist. I wouldn't be able to put that case
:58:08. > :58:11.forward. What I have been doing is talking to a lot of colleagues,
:58:12. > :58:14.there is a, from the other county in Lancashire for them this is a very
:58:15. > :58:18.real issue. What has been interesting listening to them as
:58:19. > :58:20.they want to make sure the local communities that are going to have
:58:21. > :58:24.these exploratory drills will benefit from funding available. I am
:58:25. > :58:26.pleased we have heard what the government is proposing. I think we
:58:27. > :58:29.could go further. It is important the money does not just go to the
:58:30. > :58:32.county council, but we need to see local communities benefiting from
:58:33. > :58:38.money available. Was it a smart move for the government to allow local
:58:39. > :58:44.councils to keep 100% of rates collected? I think that brings into
:58:45. > :58:52.question their traditional role. Interest rates could be lower than
:58:53. > :58:56.judicial standards when they decide whether to give planning permission.
:58:57. > :59:04.Shale gas might be able to help us as our North Sea oil reserves
:59:05. > :59:11.dwindle, but it is only ever a stop gap measure. We need to invest in
:59:12. > :59:18.renewable energy. The government has wiped out the fledgling industry
:59:19. > :59:25.with their mess of the feed into Harris. There is a large gas
:59:26. > :59:35.interconnector and as long as that is connecting us to mainland Europe,
:59:36. > :59:39.they will sell that onto France. This has been banned in France, so
:59:40. > :59:45.the company are coming here to make sure it they get their foot in
:59:46. > :59:48.somewhere. I am concerned we are not doing anything to help people with
:59:49. > :59:58.their bills. That is why we need Labour' energy bill freeze to help
:59:59. > :00:01.people. We have to look at getting our infrastructure right for the
:00:02. > :00:08.next 30 years. We have to do that slowly and carefully. It is right to
:00:09. > :00:14.do a proprietary work now. MPs on all sides are trying to it that
:00:15. > :00:21.happen. I think we are going to hear a lot about the F word on Sunday
:00:22. > :00:28.mornings for weeks to come. That word is fracking. Goodbye.
:00:29. > :00:36.Andrew, back to you. Welcome back. Now she made quite a splash last
:00:37. > :00:40.night. I am talking, of course, of the Portsmouth North MP, Penny
:00:41. > :00:43.Mordaunt. If you missed her first appearance in ITV's celebrity diving
:00:44. > :00:58.competition show, here she is in action.
:00:59. > :01:15.APPLAUSE Here is a lady who is more used to
:01:16. > :01:22.campaigning for votes than diving for them. She created far too much
:01:23. > :01:33.rotation. Hard work has gone into the start of this dive to try and
:01:34. > :01:36.control it. That looked painful Now the Portsmouth North MP got voted
:01:37. > :01:39.off the show last night but what about the verdict that really
:01:40. > :01:42.matters? The newly appointed Minister for Portsmouth, Michael
:01:43. > :01:49.Fallon, is here. Welcome to the programme. I would give her ten out
:01:50. > :01:53.of ten for bravery. I was cheering her on. She was doing this for a
:01:54. > :02:00.local charity, raising money for the local swimming pool. She was a good
:02:01. > :02:03.sport. As Minister for Portsmouth, can we expect to see you in your
:02:04. > :02:08.swimming trunks for the next series? I do not think I have the
:02:09. > :02:13.spare time at the moment. But there is a big challenge in Portsmouth.
:02:14. > :02:19.Penny Mordaunt and the other local MPs there have been remorseless in
:02:20. > :02:26.asking ministers to help the city. They are losing jobs. There is a
:02:27. > :02:33.goblin Trinity -- there is a big opportunity to create jobs. Should
:02:34. > :02:36.she have been on a celebrity television show of their role these
:02:37. > :02:42.problems in Portsmouth? This was in her spare time and it is raising
:02:43. > :02:49.money for a good cause. I do not think we should eat two sniffy about
:02:50. > :02:55.it. Did I not see you dressed up on Thursday night, doing your
:02:56. > :03:03.programme? This is my job. This is not her job. It was in her spare
:03:04. > :03:11.time, she was raising money for a local charity. Your Minister for
:03:12. > :03:14.Portsmouth. Are we going to have a minister for every town? Are we
:03:15. > :03:17.going to have a minister for Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury
:03:18. > :03:25.does not have the issues that Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth
:03:26. > :03:30.has. There are jobs at risk in shipbuilding. The government puts in
:03:31. > :03:35.a lot of money through the regional growth fund, some ?20 million. There
:03:36. > :03:40.are range of government funding streams going into Portsmouth. My
:03:41. > :03:46.job is to make sure that is properly coordinated. I need to make sure
:03:47. > :03:48.that Portsmouth seizes this opportunity to develop a more
:03:49. > :03:53.broadly -based marine and maritime economy. To make sure a marginal
:03:54. > :03:58.seat stays Tory at the next election? There are marginal seats
:03:59. > :04:08.everywhere. There is a Liberal Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince
:04:09. > :04:12.Cable and I have been working together for the issues that
:04:13. > :04:17.Portsmouth is facing. We work on these things together. But I have
:04:18. > :04:22.the very specific job of making sure that the effort on the ground is
:04:23. > :04:27.coordinated. So Vince Cable is not the Minister for Portsmouth? I have
:04:28. > :04:34.been there recently, so has Vince Cable. So there are two ministers
:04:35. > :04:38.for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am making sure that the effort is
:04:39. > :04:41.properly coordinated on the ground. I am determined to turn this
:04:42. > :04:49.challenging time into a proper opportunity. Should we be to Paul
:04:50. > :04:54.faced about this? No, good honour. How much money would be have to pay
:04:55. > :04:59.you to get into a swimming costume? Bid is not enough money in the BBC
:05:00. > :05:06.covers. Good on her. It took seven years to get a leg there's an MP.
:05:07. > :05:10.She should be a minister. It is a pity she has the spare time to do
:05:11. > :05:16.this. She is very talented. It is interesting about the Minister for
:05:17. > :05:22.Portsmouth, up in the north-east they must be sad that they do not
:05:23. > :05:25.have any marginal seats. Nick Brown as David Cameron last July, can we
:05:26. > :05:31.have a minister for the north-east, and the Prime Minister is said no?
:05:32. > :05:38.Does this mean that Portsmouth is more deprived economic late than the
:05:39. > :05:40.north-east? No, it means it is a marginal seat.
:05:41. > :05:43.The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on the Andrew Marr programme this
:05:44. > :05:46.morning and he outlined plans under a Labour government for an annual
:05:47. > :05:49.competition audit. Here is what he had to say. The next Labour
:05:50. > :05:52.government will have an annual competition at it, not just done by
:05:53. > :05:57.the regulatory body. Alongside them will be the citizens advice bureau,
:05:58. > :06:00.setting the agenda for the future, setting the agenda for how we can
:06:01. > :06:06.ensure that competition will benefit consumers and businesses. I want to
:06:07. > :06:08.see Labour going into the next election as the party of
:06:09. > :06:14.competition, the party of the consumer, the party of hard-pressed
:06:15. > :06:18.working families who are struggling. They need somebody to deal with
:06:19. > :06:22.those issues and that is what the next Labour government will do. I
:06:23. > :06:28.thought you were meant to be the party of competition? We are the
:06:29. > :06:33.party of competition. This is the party that has given us some of
:06:34. > :06:36.these problems. We have an annual competition review in the energy
:06:37. > :06:42.sector. We have already tackling banking. What is interesting about
:06:43. > :06:46.his proposal is it is the smaller ones who are less sure about this,
:06:47. > :06:50.the smaller banks who think that this could inhibit the growth. It is
:06:51. > :06:54.the smaller energy companies who think that through interfering with
:06:55. > :07:00.the market, through his price freeze, that he will hinder
:07:01. > :07:06.competition. We spoke about this before. It is a clever pitch that Ed
:07:07. > :07:11.Miliband is making. Under the guise of token markets and claiming to be
:07:12. > :07:17.the party of competition, he is creating the reason for state
:07:18. > :07:21.intervention? -- broken markets Exactly, and it is state
:07:22. > :07:29.intervention that does not work There is a proud tradition in
:07:30. > :07:33.government of smashing open cartels. Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a
:07:34. > :07:36.century ago. The problem is, in those situations it was clear and
:07:37. > :07:43.obvious that the consumers were suffering. I am not sure it is
:07:44. > :07:47.entirely obvious in this country. In the banking sector we have free
:07:48. > :07:52.current accounts in the high street. That is not true in all Western
:07:53. > :07:55.countries. In the energy sector our bills are not outlandish they high.
:07:56. > :08:02.It is when we take taxes into account the become unaffordable He
:08:03. > :08:07.has to make the case that consumers are suffering as a result of these
:08:08. > :08:12.monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it is not about state intervention but
:08:13. > :08:17.about making markets work. The piece that was written by his intellectual
:08:18. > :08:20.Duryea about the significance and the importance of Teddy Roosevelt.
:08:21. > :08:26.He was the Republican president in the yearly -- in the early years of
:08:27. > :08:34.the last century. He wanted markets to work. There is an interesting
:08:35. > :08:39.debate on Twitter this morning. Tim Montgomerie is saying, why are we,
:08:40. > :08:49.the Conservative Party, not seen as the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are
:08:50. > :08:53.seen as the party of business. There are smaller energy companies
:08:54. > :08:58.competing against the big six. In banking, we have seen smaller
:08:59. > :09:03.companies coming. It was the Labour government that created the big six
:09:04. > :09:08.energy companies. I think Teddy Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the
:09:09. > :09:14.Philippines. That could give us a clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign
:09:15. > :09:18.policy. Nigel Farage has promised to purge the party of its more extreme
:09:19. > :09:22.candidates ahead of the European Council elections in May. But that
:09:23. > :09:31.may not be going so well. Listen to this. The latest in this process is
:09:32. > :09:38.these homosexual laws. And Thomas I shall manage. I believe that the
:09:39. > :09:44.Prime Minister, who was warned that disasters would follow a three went
:09:45. > :09:49.in this direction, he has persisted, and I believe that this is largely a
:09:50. > :09:55.repercussion from this godlessness that he has persisted in. The
:09:56. > :10:00.instructions I have got from now on, or is just not to answer in, and not
:10:01. > :10:07.to give interviews such as this one. So you are ignoring them? I am not
:10:08. > :10:11.ignoring them. But you are talking to me? You are the last one I shall
:10:12. > :10:17.be speaking to. I think it is too late. Who would have thought it It
:10:18. > :10:23.is not global warming that is causing the floods, it is gay
:10:24. > :10:27.marriage? That explains it. Last year David Cameron offered a coded
:10:28. > :10:32.retraction of his statement that UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think
:10:33. > :10:37.he will be tempted to retract the retraction. It is a warning to lots
:10:38. > :10:45.of Tories who think that their best interests are served by flirting
:10:46. > :10:49.with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage is a very plausible guy, but several
:10:50. > :10:54.layers down, there are people who are very different. Nigel Farage is
:10:55. > :10:59.saying that he's going to clear the party out of what Mr Cameron called
:11:00. > :11:04.the fruitcakes. If he is true to his word, Mr Sylvester's days in the
:11:05. > :11:14.party should they numbered. If Nigel Farage falls under the bus, what is
:11:15. > :11:20.left of place -- what is left of UKIP? People say that they like UKIP
:11:21. > :11:26.because unlike other politicians, they speak their mind. But as it
:11:27. > :11:31.turns into more of a proper organisation, people speaking their
:11:32. > :11:35.mind will be less acceptable. The European elections are always a
:11:36. > :11:39.protest vote. People are not happy with the elite. You will get people
:11:40. > :11:46.saying utterly ridiculous things like that man in Henley-on-Thames.
:11:47. > :11:49.But this is a chance to vote against the entire political establishment.
:11:50. > :11:57.I am not sure that comments like that will make much of a difference.
:11:58. > :12:03.There are lots of arguments about climate change. That was certainly a
:12:04. > :12:07.new one! They are the only big protest party at the moment. Protest
:12:08. > :12:12.party is obviously hoovered up lots of votes. We have got to be clear in
:12:13. > :12:17.European message that we are the only party that can reform Europe
:12:18. > :12:22.and give people a proper choice the first referendum in over 40 years.
:12:23. > :12:27.Mr Sylvester used to be a conservative. You're probably glad
:12:28. > :12:32.to see the back of him? David Cameron is right, there are probably
:12:33. > :12:35.a few fruitcakes around there. I think that mainstream conservatives
:12:36. > :12:41.will understand that this is the only party that can secure European
:12:42. > :12:45.reform and give people the choice they have been arguing for. Whatever
:12:46. > :12:51.happens in the European elections, it is a protest vote. We have almost
:12:52. > :12:55.run out of time. We will see this week of Chris Rennard gets the party
:12:56. > :13:00.whip act. There is a battle brewing between Danny Alexander and the
:13:01. > :13:06.common side of the Liberal Democrats and the House of Lords. If he turns
:13:07. > :13:13.up on Monday and asks to be let in, I they going to make a big scene at
:13:14. > :13:19.the gate of Parliament? And the issue will stay in the papers? Yes,
:13:20. > :13:27.they are clearly nervous that Lord Rennard might be tempted to mount a
:13:28. > :13:31.legal bid. That is all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily
:13:32. > :13:36.Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two. And I will be here again
:13:37. > :13:38.next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.