:00:36. > :00:41.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech.
:00:45. > :00:49.He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back
:00:50. > :00:53.the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old
:00:54. > :00:56.Labour? If you go to work by public
:00:57. > :00:59.transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up -
:01:00. > :01:03.again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's
:01:04. > :01:06.our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week
:01:07. > :01:11.across much of the UK, but what's the outlook according to this man?
:01:12. > :01:19.This morning.This morning. Held in recent years by party veterans like
:01:20. > :01:26.As is on the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, calls to
:01:27. > :01:28.stop benefit bashing. Why one headteacher told MPs programme like
:01:29. > :01:42.this are demonising the And with me - as always - the
:01:43. > :01:45.political panel so fresh-faced, entertaining and downright popular
:01:46. > :01:48.they make Justin Bieber look like a boring old has-been just desperate
:01:49. > :01:50.to get your attention. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and
:01:51. > :02:04.they'll be tweeting quicker than a yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami
:02:05. > :02:11.Beach. Being political nerds, they have no idea what I'm talking about.
:02:12. > :02:14.Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all yesterday. We kinda thought Labour
:02:15. > :02:18.would head for the election with a return to the 50p top rate of tax.
:02:19. > :02:22.But we didn't think he'd do it now. He did! The polls say it's popular,
:02:23. > :02:26.Labour activists now have a spring in their step. The Tories say it's a
:02:27. > :02:28.return to the bad old days of the '70s, and bosses now think Labour is
:02:29. > :02:31.anti-business. Here's the Shadow Chancellor speaking earlier this
:02:32. > :02:34.morning. I was part of a Government which did very many things to open
:02:35. > :02:36.up markets, to make the Bank of England independent, to work closely
:02:37. > :02:38.with business, but the reality is we are in very difficult circumstances
:02:39. > :02:40.and because if I'm honest you, George Osborne's failure in the last
:02:41. > :02:44.few years, those difficult circumstances will last into the
:02:45. > :02:55.next Parliament. Business people have said to me they want to get the
:02:56. > :03:01.deficit down, of course they do But to cut the top rate... It is foolish
:03:02. > :03:04.and feeds resentment I want to do the opposite and say look,
:03:05. > :03:09.pro-business, pro investment, pro market, but pro fairness. Let's get
:03:10. > :03:15.this deficit down in a fairway and make the reforms to make our economy
:03:16. > :03:22.work for the long term. What are the political implications of Labour now
:03:23. > :03:26.in favour of a 50%, in practise 352% top rate of tax? One of the
:03:27. > :03:30.political implications I don't think exist is that they'll win new
:03:31. > :03:33.voters. I'm not sure many people out there would think, I would love to
:03:34. > :03:41.vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not sure if he wants to tax rich people
:03:42. > :03:46.enough. It will con Dale their existing vote but I don't think it
:03:47. > :03:51.is the kind of, in the 1990s we talked about triangulation, moving
:03:52. > :03:55.beyond your core vote, I don't think it is a policy like that. If there
:03:56. > :03:59.has been a policy like that this year, this month, it has been the
:04:00. > :04:03.Tories' move on minimum wage. I thought Labour would come back with
:04:04. > :04:08.their own version, a centre-right policy, and instead they have done
:04:09. > :04:12.this. I think we talk about the 35% strategy that Labour supposed will
:04:13. > :04:18.have, I think it is a policy in that direction rather than the thing Tony
:04:19. > :04:26.Blair or Gordon Brown would have done. Where he was not clear is on
:04:27. > :04:31.how much it would raise. We know the sum in the grand scheme of things
:04:32. > :04:39.isn't much, the bedroom tax was about sending a message. What we are
:04:40. > :04:43.going to see is George Osborne and Ed Balls lock as they try to push
:04:44. > :04:52.the other one into saying things that are unpopular. The Tories,
:04:53. > :04:57.?150,000 a year, that's exactly where Ed Balls want them to be. All
:04:58. > :05:01.three main parties have roughly the same plan, to run a current budget
:05:02. > :05:06.surplus by the end of the next Parliament. George Osborne said ?12
:05:07. > :05:11.billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said how he is going to do it. Ed Balls
:05:12. > :05:16.is giving an idea that he is going to restore this 50 persons rate The
:05:17. > :05:21.contribution of that will be deminimus. It is not much, but what
:05:22. > :05:26.does it say about your values. Because it is that package, it is
:05:27. > :05:29.cleverer than people think. Where the challenge is is the question
:05:30. > :05:34.that Peter Mandelson posed at the last election, which is can the
:05:35. > :05:38.Labour Party win a general election if it doesn't have business on its
:05:39. > :05:41.side? That's the big challenge and that's the question looking
:05:42. > :05:47.difficult for them this morning Does it matter if Labour has
:05:48. > :05:51.business on its side. I thought the most fascinating thing about this
:05:52. > :05:56.announcement is it came from the guy mindful of business support, Ed
:05:57. > :06:01.Balls. When in opposition and when a Minister and as a shadow as a
:06:02. > :06:06.result, he's been far more conscious than Ed Miliband about the need not
:06:07. > :06:11.to alienate the CB Bill. In the run-up of an election. This is a
:06:12. > :06:16.measure of Ed Miliband's strength in the Labour Party, that his view of
:06:17. > :06:21.things can prevail so easily over a guy who for the last 15 years has
:06:22. > :06:26.taken a different view. Eight out of ten businesses according to the CBI
:06:27. > :06:33.don't want us to leave business Business is in a bit of a cleft
:06:34. > :06:35.stick. Ed Miliband would like to see businesses squealing, and Ed Balls
:06:36. > :06:40.is clearly not so comfortable on that one. There's a difference on
:06:41. > :06:44.that. Mind you, they were squealing this morning from Davos. They
:06:45. > :06:49.probably had hangovers as well. The other thing they would say is this
:06:50. > :06:54.is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p is the optimal rate forever, it what
:06:55. > :06:59.go eventually. Isn't that what politicians said when income tax was
:07:00. > :07:03.introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour regarded 40 persons as the rate
:07:04. > :07:09.where it would stay. It's been a bad week for the Lib
:07:10. > :07:12.Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one of the worst weeks yet for Nick
:07:13. > :07:15.Clegg and his party in recent memory, as they've gone from talking
:07:16. > :07:17.confidently about their role in Government to facing a storm of
:07:18. > :07:20.criticism over claims of inappropriate sexual behaviour by a
:07:21. > :07:25.Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's
:07:26. > :07:29.Giles with the story of the week. A challenge to Nick Clegg's authority
:07:30. > :07:35.as he face as growing row over the Liberal Democrat... I want everyone
:07:36. > :07:38.to be treated with respect by the Liberal Democrats. We are expecting
:07:39. > :07:45.him to show moral leadership on our behalf. A good man has been publicly
:07:46. > :07:50.destroyed by the media with the apparent support of Nick Clegg. I
:07:51. > :07:55.would like Nick Clegg to show leadership and say, this has got to
:07:56. > :08:02.stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on Monday morning he knew he was in
:08:03. > :08:08.trouble, staring down the barrel of a stand justify with Lord Rennard
:08:09. > :08:12.over allegations that the peer had inappropriately touched a number of
:08:13. > :08:18.women. Chris Rennard thought he was cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more I
:08:19. > :08:21.said if he doesn't apologise, he should withdraw from the House of
:08:22. > :08:30.Lords. If he does that today, what do you do then? I hope he doesn t. I
:08:31. > :08:34.think no apology, no whip. 2014 was starting badly for the Liberal
:08:35. > :08:38.Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to apologise, saying you can't say
:08:39. > :08:43.sorry for something you haven't done. The and he was leaning towards
:08:44. > :08:47.legal action. Butch us friends better defending Pym and publicly.
:08:48. > :08:51.This is a good, decent man, who has been punished by the party, with the
:08:52. > :08:57.leadership of the party that seems to be showing scant regard for due
:08:58. > :09:02.process. But his accusers felt very differently. It is untenable for the
:09:03. > :09:06.Lib Dems to have a credible voice on qualities and women's issues in the
:09:07. > :09:13.future if Lord Rennard was allowed to be back on the Lib Dem benches in
:09:14. > :09:17.the House of Lords. Therein lay the problem that exposed the weaknesses
:09:18. > :09:24.of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's internal structures have all the
:09:25. > :09:28.simplicity of a circuit diagram for a supercomputer, exposing the
:09:29. > :09:33.complexity of who runs the Liberal Democrats? The simple question that
:09:34. > :09:38.arose of that was can the leader of the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer?
:09:39. > :09:43.The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem whips in the Lords could do it but
:09:44. > :09:49.if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed, they could overrule it. Some
:09:50. > :09:53.long-stand ng friends of roar Rennard think he is either the
:09:54. > :09:56.innocent victim of a media witch-hunt or at the least due
:09:57. > :10:02.process has been ridden over rough shot by the leadership. Nobody ever
:10:03. > :10:05.did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't turn up to the Lords, will citing
:10:06. > :10:10.ill health. But issued a statement that ruled out an apology. He
:10:11. > :10:14.refused to do so and refused to comply with the outcome of that
:10:15. > :10:18.report, so there was no alternative but for the party to suspend his
:10:19. > :10:23.membership today. On Wednesday Nick Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a
:10:24. > :10:26.crunch decision, but to discuss the extraordinary prospect of legal
:10:27. > :10:29.action against the party by the man long credited with building its
:10:30. > :10:34.success. The situation was making the party look like a joke. One Tory
:10:35. > :10:37.MP said to one of my colleagues this morning, the funny thing about the
:10:38. > :10:41.Liberal Democrats, you managed to create a whole sex scandal without
:10:42. > :10:45.any sex. And we can laugh at ourselves but actually it is rather
:10:46. > :10:50.serious. And it got more serious, when an MP who had resigned the Lib
:10:51. > :10:55.Dem whip last year was expanded from the party over a report into
:10:56. > :10:59.allegations of serious and unwelcome sexual behaviour towards a
:11:00. > :11:04.constituent. All of this leaves the Lib Dems desperately wishing these
:11:05. > :11:10.sagas had been dealt with long ago and would now go away. Nick Clegg
:11:11. > :11:15.ended the week still party leader. Lord Rennard, once one of their most
:11:16. > :11:20.powerful players, ended the week, for now, no longer even in it.
:11:21. > :11:24.Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous week. Now, as you doubtless already
:11:25. > :11:31.know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will vote to choose a new deputy leader.
:11:32. > :11:35.You didn't know that? You do now. The job of Nick Clegg's number two
:11:36. > :11:38.is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem voice, untainted by the demands of
:11:39. > :11:41.coalition Government. At this point in the show we had expected to speak
:11:42. > :11:45.to all three candidates for the post, held in recent years by party
:11:46. > :11:53.veterans like Vince Cable and Simon Hughes. We thought it being quite a
:11:54. > :11:56.significant week for the party, they might have something to say. And
:11:57. > :12:02.here they are. Well that's their pictures. For various reasons, all
:12:03. > :12:06.three are now unavailable. Malcolm Bruce, he's reckoned to be the
:12:07. > :12:09.outsider. His office said he had a "family commitment". Gordon
:12:10. > :12:13.Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was booked to appear but then told us,
:12:14. > :12:16."I was at an event last night with Lorely Burt" - she's one of the
:12:17. > :12:22.candidates - "and she told me it was off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen
:12:23. > :12:25.by many as the red hot favourite, told us: "Because of the Rennard
:12:26. > :12:33.thing we don't want to put ourselves in a position where we have to
:12:34. > :12:41.answer difficult questions." How refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad
:12:42. > :12:45.politically is all this for the Lib Dems? What I think is the tragic
:12:46. > :12:50.irony of the Lib Dems is they've been revealed as being too
:12:51. > :12:54.democratic. In the same way that their party conference embarrassed
:12:55. > :12:58.Nick Clegg by voting sings that he signed up to, and now everything has
:12:59. > :13:05.to be run past various sub-committees first. Is it
:13:06. > :13:17.democratic or chaotic? It is Byzantine. Mike Hancock was
:13:18. > :13:22.voluntarily suspended, and this week he was properly suspended. It was
:13:23. > :13:29.new information into the public domain that forced that. I'm already
:13:30. > :13:33.hearing Labour and Conservative Party musing that if it is a long
:13:34. > :13:37.Parliament, we will form a minority Government. It is a disaster for
:13:38. > :13:41.them. Voters like parties that reflect and are interested this
:13:42. > :13:45.their concerns. Parties that are self obsessed turn them off. The
:13:46. > :13:49.third party, if they carry on like this, they'll be the fifth party in
:13:50. > :13:53.the European elections, so they have got to draw a line under this. They
:13:54. > :13:59.do that, if they do, through mediation. As I understand it, Chris
:14:00. > :14:02.Rennard,s who has go devoted his entire life to the Liberal
:14:03. > :14:06.Democrats, and previously the Liberal Party, is keen to draw a
:14:07. > :14:11.line under this. He is up for mediation but he needs to know that
:14:12. > :14:15.the women that he has clearly invaded their personal space, that
:14:16. > :14:17.there wouldn't be a possible legal a action from them. The it is very
:14:18. > :14:22.difficult to see how you could resolve that. Except he is
:14:23. > :14:27.threatening through his friends these famous friends, to spill all
:14:28. > :14:31.the beans about all the party's sex secrets. Isn't the danger for the
:14:32. > :14:34.Lib Dems, this haunts them through to the European elections, where
:14:35. > :14:39.they'll get thumped in the European elections? They'll get destroyed in
:14:40. > :14:43.the European elections, which keeps it salient as a story over the
:14:44. > :14:48.summer. And it has implications for Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a
:14:49. > :14:52.good job until now, perhaps better than David Cameron, of exercising
:14:53. > :14:55.authority over his party. He had a good conference in September.
:14:56. > :14:58.Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems have looked like a party without a
:14:59. > :15:03.leader or a leadership structure. Part of that is down to the chaotic
:15:04. > :15:08.or Byzantine organisational structure of the party. Part of it
:15:09. > :15:14.is Nick Clegg's failure to assert himself and impose himself over
:15:15. > :15:19.events. Is it Byzantine or Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You
:15:20. > :15:31.don't get these words on the Today programme. The cost of living has
:15:32. > :15:34.been back on the agenda this week as Labour and the Tories argue over
:15:35. > :15:37.whether the value of money in your pocket is going up or down. Well
:15:38. > :15:41.there's one cost which has been racing ahead of inflation and that's
:15:42. > :15:44.the amount you have to pay to travel by train, by bus and by air. Rail
:15:45. > :15:47.commuters have been hard hit over the last four years, with the cost
:15:48. > :15:53.of the average season ticket going up by 18% since January 2010, while
:15:54. > :16:00.wages have gone up by just 3.6% over the same period. It means some rail
:16:01. > :16:04.users are paying high prices with commuters from Kent shelling out
:16:05. > :16:08.more than ?5,000 per year from the beginning of this month just to get
:16:09. > :16:14.to work in London. It doesn't compare well with our European
:16:15. > :16:22.counterparts. In the UK the average rail user spends 14% of their
:16:23. > :16:27.average income on trains. It is just 1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like
:16:28. > :16:31.season tickets went up 3.1% at the beginning of this month, and with
:16:32. > :16:35.ministers keen to make passengers fought more of the bills, there are
:16:36. > :16:48.more fare rises coming down the track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins
:16:49. > :16:53.me now for the Sunday Interview Welcome. You claim to be in the
:16:54. > :16:58.party of hard-working people, so why is it that since you came to power
:16:59. > :17:05.rail commuters have seen the cost of their average season ticket going up
:17:06. > :17:12.in money terms by over 18% while their pay has gone up in money terms
:17:13. > :17:18.by less than four? I would point out that this is the first year in ten
:17:19. > :17:21.years that we have not had an above inflation increase on fares. The
:17:22. > :17:31.Government accepts we have got to do as much as we can to help the
:17:32. > :17:37.passengers. A big inflation increase since 2010. This is the first year
:17:38. > :17:43.in ten years that it has not been above RPI, but we are also investing
:17:44. > :17:47.huge amounts of money into the railways, building new trains for
:17:48. > :17:53.the East Coast Main Line and the great Western. We are spending 500
:17:54. > :17:59.million at Birmingham station, this is all increasing capacity, so we
:18:00. > :18:05.are seeing investments. Over the next five years Network Rail will
:18:06. > :18:13.invest over ?38 billion in the network structure. We also have an
:18:14. > :18:17.expensive railway and it is ordinary people paying for it. A season
:18:18. > :18:23.ticket from Woking in Surrey, commuter belt land in London, let's
:18:24. > :18:29.look at the figures. This is a distance of over 25 miles, it cost
:18:30. > :18:36.over ?3000 per year. We have picked similar distances to international
:18:37. > :18:51.cities. The British commuter is being ripped
:18:52. > :18:56.off. The British commuter is seeing record levels of investment in our
:18:57. > :19:00.railways. The investment has to be paid for. We are investing huge
:19:01. > :19:06.amounts of money and I don't know whether the figures you have got
:19:07. > :19:22.here... I'm sure they are likewise, as you have managed to do... White
:19:23. > :19:30.-- ten times more than the Italian equivalent. We have seen
:19:31. > :19:34.transformational changes in our railway services and we need to
:19:35. > :19:40.carry on investing. We were paying these prices even before you started
:19:41. > :19:49.investing. We have always paid a lot more to commute in this country than
:19:50. > :19:57.our European equivalents. I'm not quite sure I want to take on Italy
:19:58. > :20:03.is a great example. You would if you were a commuter. You
:20:04. > :20:05.is a great example. You would if you the other rates of taxation has to
:20:06. > :20:10.be paid as well. Isn't it the case they are making profits out of these
:20:11. > :20:17.figures and using them to subsidise cheaper fares back in their
:20:18. > :20:23.homeland? The overall profit margin train companies make is 3%, a
:20:24. > :20:25.reasonable amount, and we have seen a revolution as far as the railway
:20:26. > :20:31.industry is concerned. a revolution as far as the railway
:20:32. > :20:40.20 years we have seen passenger journeys going from 750 million to
:20:41. > :20:44.1.5 billion. That is a massive revolution in rail. Let me look
:20:45. > :20:45.1.5 billion. That is a massive spokesperson for the German
:20:46. > :20:58.government, the Ministry of transport.
:20:59. > :21:05.They are charging huge fares in Britain to take that money back to
:21:06. > :21:10.subsidise fares in Germany. What do you say to that? We are seeing
:21:11. > :21:16.British companies winning contracts in Germany. The National Express are
:21:17. > :21:20.winning contracts to the railways. What about the ordinary commuter?
:21:21. > :21:25.They are paying through the nose so German commuters can travel more
:21:26. > :21:30.cheaply. We are still subsidising the railways in this country, but
:21:31. > :21:36.overall we want to reduce the subsidy we are giving. We are still
:21:37. > :21:42.seeing growth in our railways and I want to see more people using them.
:21:43. > :21:49.Why do you increase rail fares at the higher RPI measure than the
:21:50. > :21:54.lower CPI measurement? That is what has always been done, and we have
:21:55. > :22:00.stopped. This is the first time in ten years that we have not raised
:22:01. > :22:08.the rail figures above RPI. You still link fares to RPI. You use the
:22:09. > :22:14.lower CPI figure when it suits you, to keep pension payments down for
:22:15. > :22:20.example, but the higher one when it comes to increasing rail fares. We
:22:21. > :22:23.are still putting a huge subsidy into the rail industry, there is
:22:24. > :22:29.still a huge amount of money going from the taxpayer to support the
:22:30. > :22:34.rail industry. I am not asking you about that, I am asking you why you
:22:35. > :22:44.link the figures to the higher RPI vesture Mark if we are going to pay
:22:45. > :22:47.for the levels of investment, so all the new trains being built at Newton
:22:48. > :22:52.Aycliffe for the East Coast Main Line and the great Western, ?3.
:22:53. > :22:57.billion of investment, new rolling stock coming online, then yes, we
:22:58. > :23:11.have to pay for it, and it is a question of the taxpayer paying for
:23:12. > :23:14.it all the -- or the passenger. You have capped parking fines until
:23:15. > :23:24.the next election, rail commuters we have seen the cost of their ticket
:23:25. > :23:30.has gone up by nearly 20%, you are the party of the drivers, not the
:23:31. > :23:45.passengers, aren't you? We are trying to help everybody who
:23:46. > :23:49.has been struggling. I think we are setting out long-term plans for our
:23:50. > :23:54.railways, investing heavily in them and it is getting that balance
:23:55. > :23:59.right. But you have done more for the driver than you have for the
:24:00. > :24:08.user of public transport. I don t accept that. They are paying the
:24:09. > :24:14.same petrol prices as 2011. This is the first time in ten years that
:24:15. > :24:22.there has not been an RPI plus rise. We are investing record
:24:23. > :24:27.amounts. Bus fares are also rising, 4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a
:24:28. > :24:32.time when real take-home pay has been falling. This hits commuters
:24:33. > :24:39.particularly workers who use buses on low incomes, another cost of
:24:40. > :24:43.living squeeze. I was with Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday,
:24:44. > :24:59.and I saw a bus company investing in new buses. Last week First ordered
:25:00. > :25:03.new buses. Part of your hard-working families you are always on about,
:25:04. > :25:09.they are the ones going to work early in the morning, and yet you
:25:10. > :25:14.are making them pay more for their buses in real terms than they did
:25:15. > :25:18.before. They would be happier if they could travel more cheaply. It
:25:19. > :25:28.is about getting investment in services, it has to be paid for Why
:25:29. > :25:33.not run the old buses for five more years? Because then there is more
:25:34. > :25:37.pollution in the atmosphere, modern buses have lower emissions, and we
:25:38. > :25:41.are still giving huge support overall to the bus industry and that
:25:42. > :25:46.is very important because I fully accept that the number of people,
:25:47. > :25:56.yes, use the train but a lot of people use buses as well. High-speed
:25:57. > :26:01.two, it has been delayed because 877 pages of key evidence from your
:26:02. > :26:06.department were left on a computer memory stick, part of the submission
:26:07. > :26:11.to environmental consultation. Your department's economic case is now
:26:12. > :26:18.widely regarded as a joke, now you do this. Is your department fit for
:26:19. > :26:23.purpose? Yes, and as far as what happened with the memory stick, it
:26:24. > :26:29.is an acceptable and shouldn't have happened, and therefore we have
:26:30. > :26:39.extended the time. There has been an extension in the time for people to
:26:40. > :26:43.make representation, the bill for this goes through Parliament in a
:26:44. > :26:57.different way to a normal bill. It is vital HS2 provides what we want.
:26:58. > :27:02.What I am very pleased about is when the paving bill was passed by
:27:03. > :27:07.Parliament just a few months ago, there was overwhelming support, and
:27:08. > :27:12.I kept reading there was going to be 70 people voting against it, in the
:27:13. > :27:17.end 30 people voted against it and there was a good majority in the
:27:18. > :27:22.House of Commons. So can you give a guarantee that this legislation will
:27:23. > :27:28.get onto the statute books? I will do all I can. I cannot tell you the
:27:29. > :27:36.exact Parliamentary time scale. The bill will have started its progress
:27:37. > :27:43.through the House of Commons by 2015, and it may well have
:27:44. > :27:48.concluded. The new chairman of HS2 said he can bring the cost of the
:27:49. > :27:58.line substantially under the budget, do you agree with that? The figure
:27:59. > :28:04.is ?42 billion with a large contingency, and David Higgins, as
:28:05. > :28:08.chairman of HS2, is looking at the whole cast and seeing if there are
:28:09. > :28:14.ways in which it can be built faster. At the moment across London
:28:15. > :28:18.we are building Crossrail, ?14. billion investment. There was a
:28:19. > :28:27.report last week saying what an excellent job has been done.
:28:28. > :28:35.Crossrail started under Labour. Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in
:28:36. > :28:41.the 1990 party conference. You may get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay
:28:42. > :28:47.people so much, why is the nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on
:28:48. > :28:54.?600,000? And the new chief executive on ?750,000. These are
:28:55. > :28:58.very big projects and we need to attract the best people become so we
:28:59. > :29:03.are going for the best engineers in the world to engineer this project.
:29:04. > :29:08.It is a large salary, there is no question about it, but I'm rather
:29:09. > :29:13.pleased that engineers rather than bankers can be seen to get big
:29:14. > :29:17.rewards for delivering what will be very important pieces of national
:29:18. > :29:23.infrastructure. I didn't have time to ask you about your passenger duty
:29:24. > :29:27.so perhaps another time. We are about to speak to Nigel Mills and
:29:28. > :29:31.all of these MPs on your side who are rebelling against the
:29:32. > :29:35.Government, how would you handle them? We have got to listen to what
:29:36. > :29:42.our colleagues are talking about and try to respond it. Would you take
:29:43. > :29:51.them for a long walk off a short pier? I'm sure I would have many
:29:52. > :30:00.conversations with them. An immigration bill to tack the
:30:01. > :30:06.immigration into the UK. When limits on migration from Bulgaria and
:30:07. > :30:10.Romania were lifted this year there were warnings of a large influx of
:30:11. > :30:16.migrant workerses from the two new European countries. So far it's been
:30:17. > :30:21.more of a dribble than a flood. Who can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz
:30:22. > :30:25.greeting a handful of arrivals at Luton Airport. But it is early days
:30:26. > :30:28.and it is one of the reasons the Government's introduced a new
:30:29. > :30:34.Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister is facing rebellion from
:30:35. > :30:39.backbenchers who want tougher action on immigration from abroad. Nigel
:30:40. > :30:51.Mills would reimpose restrictions on how many Romanians and Bulgarians
:30:52. > :30:55.can come here. Joining me is Nigel Mills, Conservative MP behind the
:30:56. > :31:03.amendment and Labour MP Diane Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there
:31:04. > :31:07.hasn't been an influx of Romanians and Bulgarians. Why do you want to
:31:08. > :31:12.restore these, kick these transitional controls way forward to
:31:13. > :31:15.2019? I don't think any of us were expecting a rush on January 1st
:31:16. > :31:21.Andrew. I think we were talking about a range of 250,000 to 350 000
:31:22. > :31:27.people over five years. That's obviously a large amount of people,
:31:28. > :31:31.especially when you think net migration to the UK was well in
:31:32. > :31:36.excess of the Government's target of tens of thousands last year. The
:31:37. > :31:42.real concern is that it would be ever increasing our population,
:31:43. > :31:46.attracting lots of low-skilled, low-wage people, which keeps our
:31:47. > :31:51.people out of work and wages down. Did you accept that if you were to
:31:52. > :31:55.accept this, it would be in breach of the Treaty of Rome, the founding
:31:56. > :32:00.principle of the European Union We were trying to keep the restrictions
:32:01. > :32:03.that Bulgaria and Romania accepted for their first seven years of EU
:32:04. > :32:08.membership, on the basis that when we signed the treaty we weren't
:32:09. > :32:12.aware that we would have a huge and catastrophic recession we are still
:32:13. > :32:17.recovering from. But you would be in breach of the law, correct? The UK
:32:18. > :32:22.Parliament has a right to say we signed this deal before the terrible
:32:23. > :32:26.recession, and we need a bit longer in our national interest. It is
:32:27. > :32:34.worth noting that Bulgaria and Romania haven't met all their
:32:35. > :32:37.accession requirements. The Bulgarian requirement passed a
:32:38. > :32:42.law... So if they break the law it is alright for us to break the law?
:32:43. > :32:49.Is we should be focusing on trying to get 2. 4 million of our own in
:32:50. > :32:54.work, and 1 million people not in work... Let me bring in Diane
:32:55. > :32:59.Abbott. Will you vote for this amendment and why? It is in breach
:33:00. > :33:03.of the treaty. While I deplore MPs that try to cause trouble, these MPs
:33:04. > :33:08.have been particularly mindless because what they want to do
:33:09. > :33:13.wouldn't be legal. However, it is a Tory internal brief, if I might say
:33:14. > :33:21.so. Maybe you can cause trouble by voting for it. No, that would be
:33:22. > :33:25.going too far. Underlying it is a real antagonism for David Cameron.
:33:26. > :33:28.They have had to hold off on this bill until January. It was supposed
:33:29. > :33:34.to be debating before Christmas As we speak they've not cut a deal so
:33:35. > :33:40.it could be pretty grus om. Nigel Mills, what do you say to that I
:33:41. > :33:44.think there is a recognition that there is a problem with the amount
:33:45. > :33:49.of migration from EU countries that we need to tackle. We could try to
:33:50. > :33:52.achieve an annual cap perhaps, longer limits on when countries get
:33:53. > :33:56.free movement. I think the debate is moving in the right direction, but I
:33:57. > :34:00.think those people who are trapped out of work and desperately looking
:34:01. > :34:06.for work want something to be done now and not wait a few more years
:34:07. > :34:11.while we have more assessments Andrews. People are worried about
:34:12. > :34:15.the level of immigration. They I it is too high. That's the consensus in
:34:16. > :34:20.the country. We spoke to to migration centre in Hackney and they
:34:21. > :34:24.said they are struggling to cope with the number of people using
:34:25. > :34:29.their services. These are people with problems with the law. In the
:34:30. > :34:33.past years EU migrants put in more to the economy in taxation than they
:34:34. > :34:38.take out in benefits. When it comes to free movement, which is agitating
:34:39. > :34:43.Nige em, that horse has bolted. We signed a treaty. There is nothing
:34:44. > :34:48.people like Nigel Mills can do, unless they want to rip their party
:34:49. > :34:53.apart, God forbid. Will you go as far as to rip your party apart,
:34:54. > :34:58.Nigel Mills? Are you going to take this all the way? Would you rather
:34:59. > :35:03.see this bill go down than your amendment not be accepted? This is a
:35:04. > :35:08.very important bill. I think we all want to see measures on the statute
:35:09. > :35:12.book, so the last thing we want to see is this bill go down. We do need
:35:13. > :35:16.to set out clearly that we have real concerns about the level of EU
:35:17. > :35:24.migration and something needs to be done. Would you rather have the bill
:35:25. > :35:29.without your amendment or no bill at all? I am hoping we can have the
:35:30. > :35:34.bill with the amendment. I know that, but if you can't? Is that will
:35:35. > :35:40.depend on what the Labour Party decide to do. They are talking
:35:41. > :35:44.tougher on immigration but will they take action on it? Your party has
:35:45. > :35:49.been talking tough on immigration but I will be surprised if an Ed
:35:50. > :35:53.Miliband Labour Party would vote for egg in direct cameravention of the
:35:54. > :36:01.Treaty of Rome. It would make no sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for
:36:02. > :36:05.the impossible. If I was a Tory I would be wringing high hands. He
:36:06. > :36:11.hasn't ruled out crashing the bill. That's incredible. Where will this
:36:12. > :36:16.end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a vote on Thursday. There's a lot of
:36:17. > :36:20.amendments people can use to show their concern about migration. We
:36:21. > :36:25.want limited and proportionate action, and that's what I am
:36:26. > :36:28.proposing. I want to see the bill on the statute book, I want the
:36:29. > :36:34.restrictions on people who shouldn't be here getting bank accounts and
:36:35. > :36:39.driving licences. I don't want to crash this bill but there's more
:36:40. > :36:46.measures we need in it. Nigel Mills thank you. You are going to be --
:36:47. > :36:52.popping up I think on the Sunday Politics East Midlands. Diane
:36:53. > :36:56.Abbott, thank you as well. We're in for more heavy rain and
:36:57. > :36:58.high winds across the UK today. You may remember that one UKIP
:36:59. > :37:01.councillor - he's since been suspended - caused controversy last
:37:02. > :37:04.weekend by blaming the recent flooding on the legalisation of gay
:37:05. > :37:07.marriage. Why didn't I think of that? So who better than this man to
:37:08. > :37:09.bring you the unofficial forecast. I'll be bringing you the late least
:37:10. > :37:19.UKIP weather from your area. You're watching Sunday Politics.
:37:20. > :37:23.Also coming up in just over 20 minutes, I'll be looking at the week
:37:24. > :37:34.ahead with our political panel. Until then,
:37:35. > :37:43.Yes, you are watching the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire and
:37:44. > :37:47.Lincolnshire. Coming up: Is it time to stop benefit bashing?
:37:48. > :37:52.Why one headteacher told MPs that programmes like this are demonising
:37:53. > :37:56.the white working class. And we will find out why the
:37:57. > :38:00.government has told councils to cut the amount they spend on
:38:01. > :38:04.translation. First, let us say hello to our guests. Andrew Percy, who
:38:05. > :38:14.represents the Brigg and Goole constituency, and Nic Dakin, Labour
:38:15. > :38:21.MP for Scunthorpe. What stories have called `` caught your eyes? Well, I
:38:22. > :38:27.was really pleased to see the relighting of three blast furnaces,
:38:28. > :38:33.which is positive in a top steel market as we move forward. I was
:38:34. > :38:40.also interested in the case brought to me by a funeral care company
:38:41. > :38:47.relating to the sendoff we give veterans who have no people around
:38:48. > :38:50.to look after them. I think that raises a significant question. A
:38:51. > :38:53.local council has responded positively and I've also written to
:38:54. > :38:58.the Prime Minister and the Royal British Legion to see whether
:38:59. > :39:03.something can be done nationally. I've heard about these cases. A lot
:39:04. > :39:09.of veterans are effectively given paupers funerals. There is no
:39:10. > :39:14.ceremony. It is very sad. Yes, people died without any family or
:39:15. > :39:16.funds in place. The council has said that it anyone finds themselves in
:39:17. > :39:22.the circumstances in the future, they will cover the costs. We do
:39:23. > :39:29.need to address this nationally. The other big story is the university
:39:30. > :39:31.technical College announcement. Businesses in Scunthorpe are
:39:32. > :39:41.on`board that and that will be over ?1 million. So 20 Lincolnshire
:39:42. > :39:44.related this week. There are claims that a whole
:39:45. > :39:47.generation of children could be alienated due to the way certain
:39:48. > :39:50.sections of society are portrayed by the media. A Bradford headteacher
:39:51. > :39:53.has given evidence to a Commons committee warning that poorer pupils
:39:54. > :39:55.are growing up with "low expectations" thanks to TV
:39:56. > :40:04.programmes such as the controversial "Benefits Street". Here's Len
:40:05. > :40:09.Tingle. This is a corridor which reflects
:40:10. > :40:12.some of the work we do. A walk`through happy memories with
:40:13. > :40:18.the headteacher at this junior school in Bradford. 65% of the
:40:19. > :40:21.children here qualified for free school meals, an indication of an
:40:22. > :40:27.area of low wages and high unemployment. These trips help
:40:28. > :40:30.broaden their horizons, but there is a worried recent media and TV
:40:31. > :40:37.portrayals are demonising families on benefits and could stifle the
:40:38. > :40:41.ambitions of these children. Last week, David Jones voiced those
:40:42. > :40:48.concerns to MPs on the House of Commons Education Committee. Jeremy
:40:49. > :40:51.Kyle writ large, Benefit Street, which has been on the last couple of
:40:52. > :40:57.weeks, depicting the white working class in a way which, if other
:40:58. > :41:01.groups would have picked it away, they would find themselves in a
:41:02. > :41:06.court of law. There has been a lot in the media about the debate
:41:07. > :41:09.between strivers and skivers. It is a convenient sound bite but it
:41:10. > :41:14.alienates a lot of people in our community who are very worthy
:41:15. > :41:22.people. They have aspirations and they want their children to do well
:41:23. > :41:25.in education. You see this street? James Turner Street was one of the
:41:26. > :41:33.best streets. Unemployed, unemployed. Now, it is one of the
:41:34. > :41:38.worst. The Channel 4 programme has really stirred up the debate on well
:41:39. > :41:42.for `` welfare at just the time the government is trying to cut the cost
:41:43. > :41:49.of it. On any street it is easy to find someone with a view they want
:41:50. > :41:52.to share. Benefit Street is not representative of people on
:41:53. > :41:57.benefits. There is good and bad in society at all levels in society,
:41:58. > :42:02.from the highest in the land to the lowest. I think people who are on
:42:03. > :42:06.benefits, they think it's really good, they get everything paid for,
:42:07. > :42:11.it's fine. People who are not on benefits hate the fact that they
:42:12. > :42:15.work for what they get. As the debate gets louder, does the public
:42:16. > :42:20.have an accurate understanding of the benefits system? Surveys and
:42:21. > :42:24.polls suggest not. Public perception came into stark reality when people
:42:25. > :42:28.in the street were asked, how much of the entire budget debate thing
:42:29. > :42:36.was claimed fraudulently? They came up with a figure of well over a
:42:37. > :42:40.quarter. In fact, it is 0.8% of all claims. But that debate over whether
:42:41. > :42:44.claimants and their families are betrayed belly is a relevant
:42:45. > :42:50.according to the right wing think tank the TaxPayers' Alliance. Some
:42:51. > :42:56.people see demonisation. I see a welfare system which is trapping
:42:57. > :43:02.people into chances of no hope and poor education. We should be
:43:03. > :43:05.concerned, but we should focus not on the back we're talking about it,
:43:06. > :43:12.but the fact that we didn't talk about it so long. That view in
:43:13. > :43:20.theory it's the makers of this film, a group of West Yorkshire benefits
:43:21. > :43:27.claimants. This is me. It's a good likeness. Using animated characters
:43:28. > :43:32.of themselves to counteract what they see as an unfair portrayal of
:43:33. > :43:36.their plight. I do understand there are people out there who take
:43:37. > :43:40.advantage of the benefits system, but maybe look at the wider picture
:43:41. > :43:44.and see some people don't want to be on benefits. They just need a bit of
:43:45. > :43:49.help to get them where they want to be. In fact, Rebecca got a job just
:43:50. > :43:56.before Christmas, but her pay is so low, her family now joins 14 million
:43:57. > :44:02.others in the UK where, despite someone in the household working,
:44:03. > :44:05.they still need to claim benefits. Nic Dakin, do you think programmes
:44:06. > :44:14.like Benefit Street demonise people on where Blair `` welfare? They
:44:15. > :44:21.absolutely do. Companies come in from Channel 4 ` and it is nearly
:44:22. > :44:25.always Channel 4 ` they come in and say they will take a rounded view,
:44:26. > :44:38.and a film a rounded view and then they only show a distorted view, a
:44:39. > :44:42.view which confirms the idea that many people are taking advantage.
:44:43. > :44:46.The largest number of people on benefits are pensioners, then people
:44:47. > :44:49.in work. Channel 4 says these programmes are balanced but they are
:44:50. > :44:54.not here to defend themselves. Andrew Percy you are from a teaching
:44:55. > :44:57.background. What do you make of the comments of the headmaster there,
:44:58. > :45:02.saying these programmes trample on the aspirations of many young
:45:03. > :45:11.people? I don't particularly like these programmes. I've watched the
:45:12. > :45:22.last two episodes of Nic Dakin. `` of Benefit Street. I was on benefits
:45:23. > :45:26.when my dad lost his job. My family were on benefits. It was not for a
:45:27. > :45:30.long time. We need to understand there are a group of people born
:45:31. > :45:34.into families when nobody has worked. That is not the fault of the
:45:35. > :45:38.media. There is an issue of some people making benefits a lifestyle.
:45:39. > :45:43.It is not most people, but we shouldn't demonise people. There is
:45:44. > :45:47.a problem and we need to address it. Labour 's new Shadow Work and
:45:48. > :45:50.Pensions Secretary now has a tough new message on welfare, talking
:45:51. > :45:54.about taking benefits away from people who don't have the right
:45:55. > :45:57.skills in English and maths, and if they don't go on the right courses
:45:58. > :46:02.they will lose their benefits. Why is it taking Labour so long to get
:46:03. > :46:09.to that point of view? Labour has always been the party of the working
:46:10. > :46:16.people. The clue is in the title. It is right and proper that if somebody
:46:17. > :46:22.has been out of work for a year they should have to get into work. Work
:46:23. > :46:27.is the best window onto a better future. Likewise, people over 25 who
:46:28. > :46:30.been out of work than two years. That is what Labour is saying needs
:46:31. > :46:35.to be done to address the situation we find ourselves in. Senior Tories
:46:36. > :46:42.talk about the divide between workers and shirkers. Does that
:46:43. > :46:46.oversimplify the debate? It was a Labour politician who used the word
:46:47. > :46:50.skivers. We empathise the fact there are some people who have made it a
:46:51. > :46:53.lifestyle choice, and that needs to be addressed. The government should
:46:54. > :46:57.be on the side of people who are striving. That's not just people in
:46:58. > :47:01.work, they are people on benefits as well, like that lady we saw who was
:47:02. > :47:06.out there trying to find a job and did find one. So we are right to
:47:07. > :47:10.talk about strivers and to be on their side. If some people choose to
:47:11. > :47:14.interpret that as everyone benefits is not its driver, that is their
:47:15. > :47:20.problem, because that is not what I think. If you look at that
:47:21. > :47:24.headteacher comedy talks specifically about the white working
:47:25. > :47:29.class as if they are an oppressed minority. Do you identify with that
:47:30. > :47:38.point of view? I think essentially we need to be there for everybody,
:47:39. > :47:47.Paul people. We need to support them whatever their race and sexuality.
:47:48. > :47:50.`` poor people. Where he is right is there is evidence that white
:47:51. > :47:59.working`class youngsters are doing less well in school the mail to be.
:48:00. > :48:03.`` in schools than they ought to be. So David Jones is doing the right
:48:04. > :48:08.thing by talking about more aspiration being needed. That is
:48:09. > :48:12.what I see in my patch. We need hard`working teachers on the side of
:48:13. > :48:17.decades trying to make sure they achieve better and can go through
:48:18. > :48:23.life with stronger prospects. You'd been teaching until recently, Andrew
:48:24. > :48:30.Percy. Is this kind of culture a difficult thing for many young men
:48:31. > :48:39.to break away from? Yes, we are all influenced by our peers. Once they
:48:40. > :48:44.leave school their influence is often very negative and beyond the
:48:45. > :48:48.control of teachers. That culture, which I think has declined in recent
:48:49. > :48:51.years, there seems to be some evidence, even the evidence would
:48:52. > :49:02.seem of less young people getting themselves into alcohol, that does
:49:03. > :49:08.suggest that it is declining. It was a nastier culture and it was linked
:49:09. > :49:11.to violence, linked to wanting to be outside of society. It used to
:49:12. > :49:14.concern me massively, because you would try to deal with these
:49:15. > :49:20.children who were influenced massively by these negative
:49:21. > :49:23.influences outside of school. The Government has called on
:49:24. > :49:31.councils to cut the cost of translating documents for migrants.
:49:32. > :49:36.Ministers say it discourages some from learning to speak English and
:49:37. > :49:39.adds an extra ?20 million a year onto town hall budgets. But many
:49:40. > :49:42.authorities with a growing migrant population say they're struggling to
:49:43. > :49:49.reduce the cost of translation services.
:49:50. > :49:54.English is not the first language for many residents living in Boston,
:49:55. > :50:00.Lincolnshire. Recent years have seen thousands arrived in the town from
:50:01. > :50:04.Eastern Europe. This person teaches English to migrants from Lithuania.
:50:05. > :50:10.She says most people want to learn the language, but sometimes they
:50:11. > :50:17.need a learning `` a helping hand. More and more people come to the UK
:50:18. > :50:27.and they need some support with translating, with interpreting. But
:50:28. > :50:33.we are very grateful for the government that they help us and
:50:34. > :50:44.understand us. It is important, especially when they go to hospital
:50:45. > :50:48.and it is an urgent matter. The Communities Secretary Eric Pickles
:50:49. > :50:53.has accused councils of wasting money on translating leaflets and
:50:54. > :50:58.documents into foreign languages. He says migrants should be encouraged
:50:59. > :51:02.to speak English. It's not just councils which are trying to
:51:03. > :51:06.overcome the language barrier. The NHS, the police and the courts are
:51:07. > :51:12.all having to cope with the substantial cost of translation will
:51:13. > :51:17.stop we are spending this money at a time when we are cutting front line
:51:18. > :51:21.services, staff and jobs. Our roads are neglected but we are spending
:51:22. > :51:25.money on translation services. It is just wrong. The government estimates
:51:26. > :51:31.the cost of translation to the public sector as a whole is ?140
:51:32. > :51:37.million a year. Local authorities spend ?20 million annually and the
:51:38. > :51:41.bill in Lincolnshire is ?155,000. We offer translation services
:51:42. > :51:47.especially within children's social care. We've seen more children
:51:48. > :51:51.coming into care which has led to court proceedings. All documents
:51:52. > :51:55.into court now have to be translated and we need to provide an
:51:56. > :51:58.interpreter for families whose first language is not English. The
:51:59. > :52:02.government says you should be cutting the cost of translation. Is
:52:03. > :52:07.that possible? I think we are lean and mean as it is. We obviously
:52:08. > :52:14.looked every area to make savings but there are some areas like social
:52:15. > :52:19.care and with vulnerable adults were we need to make sure people
:52:20. > :52:22.understand what is happening. And the courts insist we provide an
:52:23. > :52:33.interpreter and have two translate documents. There is no negotiation
:52:34. > :52:36.on that. With town all budgets under pressure, the cost of providing
:52:37. > :52:46.translation services has become another battle in the war of words
:52:47. > :52:51.between green `` council chiefs and the government.
:52:52. > :52:58.Is it feasible to cut costs where there has been a growth in the
:52:59. > :53:01.migrant population? Part of the problem is this unrestricted EU
:53:02. > :53:06.immigration in which people can come here without having to pass an
:53:07. > :53:12.English language test. My solution would be rather than bothering with
:53:13. > :53:16.this translation issue is addressing the unrestricted flow of
:53:17. > :53:19.immigration. The point is, these people are entitled to come here
:53:20. > :53:23.under EU law and to claim these benefits. The councils are in a
:53:24. > :53:29.quandary. It is difficult and I don't know what the solution is.
:53:30. > :53:33.I'll be honest about that one! They have to provide services to all
:53:34. > :53:36.sections of society. There is a lot of legislation covering that. I'm
:53:37. > :53:40.not sure how practical it is to expect them to just cut all this. A
:53:41. > :53:44.better issued to debate would be what we're going to do about
:53:45. > :53:52.immigration controls at the border. There is an English language test on
:53:53. > :53:56.non`EU immigrants. You are a former council leader yourself. Do you
:53:57. > :54:01.agree with Eric Pickles that providing translated documents and
:54:02. > :54:07.leaflets discourages some from speaking English? Well, this
:54:08. > :54:15.government cut the cost of English as a second language to support
:54:16. > :54:20.people from outside the U K learning English. I think that is very
:54:21. > :54:24.important. It is better to interact in English than translation. That
:54:25. > :54:27.should be anybody in the country's first priority. As your clip
:54:28. > :54:32.identified, it is important people have access to proper justice. Where
:54:33. > :54:38.translation is necessary to allow proper process and justice, that is
:54:39. > :54:43.absolutely necessary, and necessary by law, as Andrew was indicating.
:54:44. > :54:52.Digging councils can be innovative, they can work with advice centres
:54:53. > :55:03.set up by people who come from outside the UK. `` I do think
:55:04. > :55:08.councils can be innovative. That seems to me to be the way Bob people
:55:09. > :55:15.to go forward on this so we can have high quality and also best value.
:55:16. > :55:19.When it comes to translation, the bass majority of translation budget
:55:20. > :55:25.is spent on adult and social care. When cases go to court, they have to
:55:26. > :55:28.be translated, said the hands of councils are tied. So it is
:55:29. > :55:34.disingenuous of Eric Pickles to say they should slash the budget. They
:55:35. > :55:39.just can't do that. You are tempting me to criticise the secretary of
:55:40. > :55:42.state, which is not in my DNA. But a lot of these services are
:55:43. > :55:46.statutory. Children with a second language have to be supported in the
:55:47. > :55:51.school system. There is a legal requirement. They should try as hard
:55:52. > :55:56.as possible, I think we can all agree on that. It is perhaps not
:55:57. > :56:00.necessary to send everything out in different languages, we could put it
:56:01. > :56:03.online. But I didn't think we should have an immigration system that
:56:04. > :56:08.allows people to come to this country without a certain level of
:56:09. > :56:14.English. That is the case in Canada, the US, Australia. I would like to
:56:15. > :56:17.see that debate. Let's get some more of the week's
:56:18. > :56:26.political news now. James Vincent has our round`up in 60 seconds.
:56:27. > :56:31.Good news on the economy with more finding jobs in the last three
:56:32. > :56:37.months than since 1997. But the political debate centred on what
:56:38. > :56:43.kind of jobs. The employment Secretary insisted it was the full
:56:44. > :56:46.range, but others begged to differ. Apprenticeships have gone up and
:56:47. > :56:54.that shows the supply chain have gone up. Not part`time jobs, not
:56:55. > :56:59.zero hours contract jobs. I want full employment.
:57:00. > :57:05.A change of root of the high`speed rail link is being requested to
:57:06. > :57:10.avoid sensitive areas. We wanted to be a positive move forward.
:57:11. > :57:15.And cuts to bus subsidies in North Yorkshire will go ahead despite the
:57:16. > :57:19.efforts of a veteran campaigners. I was 91 last Tuesday and I'm going to
:57:20. > :57:27.be absolutely isolated in my house now there isn't a bus. I can't walk
:57:28. > :57:32.down to the town and do shopping. So, Nic Dakin, we've had the biggest
:57:33. > :57:36.quarterly fall in unemployment this week since 1997. Our Labour running
:57:37. > :57:41.out of bullets to fire at the government when it comes to economic
:57:42. > :57:46.recovery? Well, we must welcome any fall in unemployment. That is a good
:57:47. > :57:49.thing. I hope it carries on. The problem is, we also have the largest
:57:50. > :57:54.number of people in part`time jobs wanting to be in full`time jobs. For
:57:55. > :58:03.the last 45 weeks of this government, in 40 for those weeks
:58:04. > :58:08.back in 44 of those weeks, we've seen prices rise higher than wages.
:58:09. > :58:12.So that has been a real squeeze on wages. That is what I see in my
:58:13. > :58:16.surgery. People come in with a variety of issues, all of which come
:58:17. > :58:22.down to the difficulty of making ends meet. Your area still has the
:58:23. > :58:31.second rate `` second`highest rate of unemployment of other regions.
:58:32. > :58:36.There are figures out suggesting the recovery in Yorkshire is stronger
:58:37. > :58:40.than in parts of the South. 84% of new jobs in Yorkshire and the Humber
:58:41. > :58:43.have been full`time jobs. That is not part`time or zero hours
:58:44. > :58:49.contracts. It was under the last Labour government that the number of
:58:50. > :58:52.British people in work fell by 413,000. We are getting people back
:58:53. > :59:02.to work and they are largely full`time jobs. What is your
:59:03. > :59:06.experience, Nic Dakin? In my part, unemployment has gone up slightly,
:59:07. > :59:13.so it remains very top where we are. `` very tough. When you talk to
:59:14. > :59:23.people in real shops in Brussels, they are saying it is getting
:59:24. > :59:29.tougher by the minute. I spoke to somebody this week who is caring for
:59:30. > :59:33.his wife who has had a series of strokes, and they are being hit by
:59:34. > :59:38.the bedroom tax which was affecting their ability to make ends meet.
:59:39. > :59:46.Those stories are coming in through my letterbox daily. Andrew Percy, no
:59:47. > :59:56.need for complacency? Know, a lot of the cost of living inflation costs
:59:57. > :00:01.are historic issues. We've become more reliant on foreign gas and oil,
:00:02. > :00:04.those are not things that have happened in the last two years and
:00:05. > :00:08.they are difficult for governments to address. So there is an issue
:00:09. > :00:11.with cost of living, no doubt. But no one is a solution where they can
:00:12. > :00:17.click their fingers overnight and get rid of those pressures. So there
:00:18. > :00:23.is a lot more to do, but unemployment has fallen in my area
:00:24. > :00:40.substantially. Thank you both very much for your time today.
:00:41. > :00:43.back to you. UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never
:00:44. > :00:47.far away from controversy, but this week he's been outdoing himself He
:00:48. > :00:49.was hit over the head with a placard by a protester in Kent, provoked
:00:50. > :00:53.outrage by saying women with children are worth less to city
:00:54. > :01:00.firms, and said the ban on owning handguns was 'crackers'. He also
:01:01. > :01:04.seemed less than sure of his party's own policies when I interviewed him
:01:05. > :01:07.on the Daily Politics. And the story that got everyone talking was the
:01:08. > :01:12.suggestion by a UKIP councillor that flooding is linked to gay marriage.
:01:13. > :01:19.We'll talk about all of that in a moment, but first, over to Nigel
:01:20. > :01:23.with the weather. Weather for all areas of the British Isles but
:01:24. > :01:29.definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land." You may have heard about a storm in
:01:30. > :01:35.a tea cup developed when you kip councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the
:01:36. > :01:40.floods on the gay marriage Bill The old party is focusing on the view of
:01:41. > :01:47.UKIP members like him, even though he had said a sell yuj of things
:01:48. > :01:54.before when a Tory councillor. How quickly things change depending on
:01:55. > :02:02.when the blouse. There are occasional barmy views by people of
:02:03. > :02:05.all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour councillor claimed of fathered a
:02:06. > :02:17.child with an extra terrorist ral, and said his real mother was a
:02:18. > :02:23.foot green alien. And in Wales a councillor
:02:24. > :02:31.thinking about heading off for the slopes, there were flurries of
:02:32. > :02:36.embarrassment for the Tories after Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing
:02:37. > :02:43.party in a resort. Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps
:02:44. > :02:47.on the gravy train, watch out for hot air.
:02:48. > :02:55.In Britain temperatures are rising ahead of the European elections in
:02:56. > :02:59.May. It could get stormy, so advise light aircraft. Watch out for
:03:00. > :03:04.outbreaks of common sense, and no chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back
:03:05. > :03:09.to you, Andrew, with the rest of the Sunday Politics.
:03:10. > :03:14.Nick, if it was any other party that had bon through the past week it
:03:15. > :03:19.would be in meltdown. And maybe it is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't.
:03:20. > :03:25.What do you think? That just shows, that great weather forecast, Prince
:03:26. > :03:30.Charles now has a rival to be an excellent weather forecaster, as
:03:31. > :03:35.does the Duchess of Cornwall. It shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr
:03:36. > :03:39.candidate to the European elections. Our invitation to the British people
:03:40. > :03:43.to kick the establishment. The establishment have spent five years
:03:44. > :03:47.that the European Parliament is a waste of time, so who are you going
:03:48. > :03:54.to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of person. What was important about
:03:55. > :03:57.your eadviceration of Nigel Farage on Daily Politics is that when it
:03:58. > :04:01.came to the substance, they flounder. But the point about that
:04:02. > :04:06.party is they may have the thinnest set of policies, but people know
:04:07. > :04:14.what they stand for more than any other parties - get out of Europe, a
:04:15. > :04:19.grammar school in every town. If any other leading politician called for
:04:20. > :04:23.an end to the ban on handguns, at a time when we've seen these appalling
:04:24. > :04:27.gun deaths in the United States now almost one every week in some
:04:28. > :04:37.terrible siege in a school. It would be a crisis. It seems to wash off
:04:38. > :04:41.him. He's got congenital foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into
:04:42. > :04:48.another wild nothing to do with why people might vote UKIP. I don't
:04:49. > :04:52.think people are desperate to have handgun licences back in this
:04:53. > :04:58.country. It is such an unusual phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a
:04:59. > :05:03.Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying it, we've seen the damage done to
:05:04. > :05:08.the Lib Dems on a much more serious manner, we would say this is
:05:09. > :05:13.terminal. But maybe it adds to this image that we are not like the other
:05:14. > :05:19.parties. I think that is it. We keep waiting for these scandals and
:05:20. > :05:25.embarrassments to do damage to UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not
:05:26. > :05:29.working. It is ultimately because if you are an antiestablishment party,
:05:30. > :05:34.if you are an anti-system party the rules of the game which apply to the
:05:35. > :05:40.establishment parties don't apply to you. And the more ramshackle and
:05:41. > :05:46.embarrassing you are, the more authentic you seem. It what be take
:05:47. > :05:51.something for them not to finish second in May. Do they spend the
:05:52. > :05:55.following 12 months sinking in the poll snoos And George Osborne's
:05:56. > :05:58.strategy is fame everything as Labour versus the Conservatives The
:05:59. > :06:04.electorate will have their fun in May. Maybe the Tories will be beat
:06:05. > :06:09.into third place but in thejection is that -- but in the general
:06:10. > :06:18.election it is Labour versus the Tories. The Conservative Party will
:06:19. > :06:22.run around, 46 letters to Graham Brady, a leadership contest. That
:06:23. > :06:26.sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules well in the European elections,
:06:27. > :06:33.could cause big trouble for Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it?
:06:34. > :06:38.The big point about this, David Cameron said this is not a political
:06:39. > :06:43.party but a pressure group. This is the way to look at UKIP, and the way
:06:44. > :06:50.it is used by people in the right of the party, who say we have to do
:06:51. > :06:56.this. I like the policy of painting the trains in their old liveries. It
:06:57. > :07:07.would be like my old train set. I like the bigger passports.
:07:08. > :07:15.Pre-GNER... And London and Midland. I used to be a train spotter.
:07:16. > :07:21.Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the phone. Good to know you are watching
:07:22. > :07:26.but pity you are not here. He wanted to clarify he had constituency
:07:27. > :07:30.commitments to prevent him coming on the show to talk about becoming
:07:31. > :07:33.leader of the party, but he didn't dispute anything we said on the
:07:34. > :07:36.show. Yesterday, Ed Balls said that
:07:37. > :07:39.housing investment will be a central priority for the next Labour
:07:40. > :07:43.Government. It's a big issue, as the lack of new homes pushes up the the
:07:44. > :07:45.price of owning or renting. Well, tomorrow the Tories will announce
:07:46. > :07:52.what they say is the most ambitious programme of affordable
:07:53. > :07:55.housebuilding for 20 years. The Government sees housing as a really
:07:56. > :08:03.important part of the economy. That's why we are announcing a 23
:08:04. > :08:07.billion package for 165,000 new affordable homes. So individual
:08:08. > :08:11.builders, councils, housing associations can bid for that money.
:08:12. > :08:16.Phase one, which we are halfway through at the moment, we've built
:08:17. > :08:24.170,000 houses. 99,000 already coming out of the ground, so we ve
:08:25. > :08:29.made real progress on that. So, 165,000 new, affordable homes. It is
:08:30. > :08:33.a lot. Let me add three more words. Over three years. It is not such a
:08:34. > :08:37.lot. It is not, and Labour's commitment is 200,000 homes a year
:08:38. > :08:42.and even that isn't enough. The problem here is that the vest
:08:43. > :08:46.interest is with people who already have homes. They have a vote in the
:08:47. > :08:51.system through the planning regulations. In London there is a
:08:52. > :08:55.gap in the hedge through Richmond Park through which you should be
:08:56. > :09:00.able to see St Paul's Cathedral That's why you cannot build homes
:09:01. > :09:07.where you want them. I don't think we want to build homes over Richmond
:09:08. > :09:12.Park. He wasn't saying that. That's dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine.
:09:13. > :09:16.You've got to deal with supply, which is why Labour is talking about
:09:17. > :09:23.200,000 a year, and what George Osborne has done with supply is
:09:24. > :09:26.helping with demand. We know the Help to Buy Scheme is pretty
:09:27. > :09:33.dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen to put the break on that. If you are
:09:34. > :09:38.to deal with supply, you have to do radical things. Chris Huhne talked
:09:39. > :09:42.about on brownfield sites you can tax people who are holding the land
:09:43. > :09:46.as if the development has taken place. Then if you are really going
:09:47. > :09:50.to deal with it you have to talk about the greenfield sites, and you
:09:51. > :09:55.have to deal with the garden cities argument, which is too much for the
:09:56. > :09:58.Tories. All the parties seem to agree building new houses is a
:09:59. > :10:03.political winner. I hope that they are right. I'm not sure they are.
:10:04. > :10:08.The housing market is the example of what economists call the insider
:10:09. > :10:13.in-outsider problem. People who are already homeowners have no rational
:10:14. > :10:18.incentive to vote for more housing stock. Even if you leave aside the
:10:19. > :10:22.Conservative arable objections, if you are a homeowner there is an
:10:23. > :10:26.interest to stick with the planning promise that we have. So then we are
:10:27. > :10:30.stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not only are we growing at
:10:31. > :10:36.the moment but our population is growing. I've seen projects that in
:10:37. > :10:39.quite quickly we will overtake Germany and become the largest
:10:40. > :10:44.populated country in Europe. If that's the case we've got to build
:10:45. > :10:49.homes. We have. If you look at Tower Hamlets in London, the population is
:10:50. > :10:54.r ging higher than the number of dwelling. Classically the theory's
:10:55. > :11:00.been young people are most affected by this and they don't vote much.
:11:01. > :11:06.But when their parents have young Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's
:11:07. > :11:10.an electoral issue. That's why the garden cities project is
:11:11. > :11:15.interesting, because they finance themselves. You zone it for
:11:16. > :11:20.development, it is worth ?2 million an acre and then you can build on
:11:21. > :11:26.it. But who is going to want the greenfield sites gone. And how
:11:27. > :11:31.quickly can we build garden cities today? Some were started before the
:11:32. > :11:35.Town and Country Planning Act. I've read stats about the way Chinese and
:11:36. > :11:40.Japanese are building houses and they were slower than that. Here's a
:11:41. > :11:45.thought, sticking on the housing theme. Ed Miliband came up with the
:11:46. > :11:50.energy freeze, a populist interventionist move. Then the use
:11:51. > :11:54.it or lose it to land developers. Then breaking up the banks. Now the
:11:55. > :12:00.50p tax rate. How much would you put on Labour coming up for rent
:12:01. > :12:04.controls? That's already a big split. They are split already on it.
:12:05. > :12:09.They have. In London it is a popular policy. It might not play well in
:12:10. > :12:12.the rest of the country. I would say 50-50 on that. I think Labour
:12:13. > :12:16.supporting rent controls like the Tories having a go at welfare. The
:12:17. > :12:20.policy may be individually popular but it sends an impression about the
:12:21. > :12:25.party which might be less attract active. It confirms underlying
:12:26. > :12:29.suspicions that vote these guys into power and suddenly they are
:12:30. > :12:34.tampering with the private economy. The memories of the '70s when
:12:35. > :12:37.Governments tried and failed to do that. It is riskier than a
:12:38. > :12:42.superficial reading of the polls would suggest. One to watch? I think
:12:43. > :12:47.they are looking at it. That was the key message of the Ed Balls speech
:12:48. > :12:52.on housing, is looking at supply and how you get to that 200,000 figure a
:12:53. > :12:56.year, which is substantially more than what Kris Hopkins is talking
:12:57. > :13:01.about. What we didn't get to talk about, remember we had Michael
:13:02. > :13:05.Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of Schools. We all consumed was Mr
:13:06. > :13:08.Gove's man, the Education Secretary's man. Now according to
:13:09. > :13:13.the Sunday Times he is spitting blood about the way Mr Gove and his
:13:14. > :13:17.office are speaking about him behind the scenes. We've checked the quotes
:13:18. > :13:21.and he stands by them, so I think we'll have to have the head of
:13:22. > :13:25.Ofsted back on the programme. If you are watching, we're here. All that
:13:26. > :13:29.to the Lib Dems who didn't come on today.
:13:30. > :13:32.That's all for today. Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is
:13:33. > :13:35.back on Monday at midday on BBC Two, and I'll be here again next week.
:13:36. > :14:13.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:14. > :14:22.Britain, with 120,000 soldiers is now at war with Germany
:14:23. > :14:29.This would be the first truly modern war.
:14:30. > :14:35.and resolve of entire populations against each other.
:14:36. > :15:00.A war that would turn the country upside down.
:15:01. > :15:05.of a new start in life far away from our troubles.
:15:06. > :15:08.But can the reality of moving to the other side of the world
:15:09. > :15:13.live up to those dreams, especially when you know the pain that moving