:00:37. > :00:42.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The unions helped
:00:43. > :00:46.him beat his brother to the top. Now Ed Miliband wants to change Labour's
:00:47. > :00:50.relationship with them. Who will come out on top? We will be asking
:00:51. > :00:52.one union baron what he thinks. Cracks in the coalition after
:00:53. > :00:57.Education Secretary Michael Gove sacks the chairwoman of Ofsted. His
:00:58. > :01:01.Lib Dem deputy is said to be hopping mad. We will be talking to the new
:01:02. > :01:04.deputy leader of the Lib Dems, Malcolm Bruce.
:01:05. > :01:07.Caught a bout of the EU blues? David Cameron has been drowning his
:01:08. > :01:10.sorrows with the President of France. Who better? We will be
:01:11. > :01:14.asking if the EU referendum bill is dead in the water.
:01:15. > :01:18.And bad weather getting you down? Getting from A to B a bit of a
:01:19. > :01:19.nightmare? Fear not! The leader of the Greens will be here with her
:01:20. > :01:41.traffic and travel report. Dutch We find out why North Yorkshire
:01:42. > :01:46.Tories rejected and Macintosh, Yorkshire's only female Tory MP.
:01:47. > :01:49.reassurance people want? Yes, all that and more in today s
:01:50. > :01:53.action-packed Sunday Politics. And blowing more hot air than I have had
:01:54. > :01:59.hot dinners, Helen Lewis, Nick Watt and Iain Martin.
:02:00. > :02:01.After the row about candidate selection in Falkirk, Ed Miliband
:02:02. > :02:05.said he wanted to reshape the relationship between Labour and the
:02:06. > :02:08.unions. The biggest changes involve union membership of the party, which
:02:09. > :02:15.in turn will affect future Labour leadership elections. Some claim
:02:16. > :02:18.this is Ed's Clause 4 moment. But the unions will continue to be
:02:19. > :02:21.powerful at conference and on the party's ruling committees, and they
:02:22. > :02:25.will still be able to bankroll the election campaign. Here is Labour's
:02:26. > :02:35.deputy leader, Harriet Harman, speaking earlier. What he is
:02:36. > :02:38.proposing for the March the 1st conference is a huge change in
:02:39. > :02:45.financing, in the election of the leader, in what goes on at local
:02:46. > :02:48.level. In due course, it might have implications for the NEC elections
:02:49. > :02:51.and conference. But this is already a big issue to take forward.
:02:52. > :02:54.Joining me now is Paul Kenny, general secretary of the GMB union
:02:55. > :03:04.and chair of the Trade Union and Labour Party Liaison Organisation.
:03:05. > :03:11.Is this Ed Miliband's Clause 4 moment? I don't know about that It
:03:12. > :03:17.is certainly a bold move, particularly to have an electoral
:03:18. > :03:22.college, which as you said was the system which elected him in the
:03:23. > :03:27.first place. Everybody admits that has needed reforming for some time.
:03:28. > :03:33.Moving to a one member, one vote situation seems to me to be
:03:34. > :03:40.sensible. I know some people are upset, mostly MPs, who will lose
:03:41. > :03:48.their golden share. But it is nonsense that one MP should have the
:03:49. > :03:58.same vote as 1000 party members So the MPs have lost out. Have the
:03:59. > :04:02.unions lost out? Well, the system is currently that union members get a
:04:03. > :04:06.ballot paper, but they have to declare that they are a Labour
:04:07. > :04:11.supporter and they have to sign to that effect in order to participate.
:04:12. > :04:19.Then their vote is counted. At the last election, about 200,000 trade
:04:20. > :04:23.union members gave that indication, and they participated in that way.
:04:24. > :04:29.That will not change. The way it is organised will be different. The big
:04:30. > :04:36.change in the electoral college is that the logical weight given to MPs
:04:37. > :04:41.will disappear. I wonder if you have really lost anything. At the moment,
:04:42. > :04:43.there are about 3 million people automatically affiliated from the
:04:44. > :04:49.unions to the Labour Party. If only 10% of them opt in, that will still
:04:50. > :04:56.mean twice as many union individual members, 300,000, versus about
:04:57. > :05:02.180,000 Labour Party members. So union members and maybe even the
:05:03. > :05:09.unions will have as big an influence on the leadership elections as you
:05:10. > :05:12.do now, maybe bigger? Well, they are individual votes. Different unions
:05:13. > :05:19.support different candidates. It is lost in the media myth of barons and
:05:20. > :05:23.block votes, but there is an individual vote. Different unions
:05:24. > :05:26.recommend different candidates, and union members vote accordingly. Ed
:05:27. > :05:33.Miliband won more individual votes by a country mile than David, but it
:05:34. > :05:39.got messed up in the process of this electoral college. As I have
:05:40. > :05:45.understood the proposals so far they are not a done deal. There is a
:05:46. > :05:51.lot of discussion. But it seems there are three hurdles. Firstly,
:05:52. > :05:54.union members themselves will have to agree whether they want to
:05:55. > :05:59.affiliate to the Labour Party. If they don't, the rest of it falls. If
:06:00. > :06:05.they decide they do my they will ask union members to support that an
:06:06. > :06:10.individual basis the next five years, which will have financial
:06:11. > :06:13.implications. Then there will be a third position, which is that people
:06:14. > :06:18.who may want to agree with the union's position and affiliate with
:06:19. > :06:21.the Labour Party may want to go further and become active supporters
:06:22. > :06:24.of the Labour Party, participating in leadership elections. They will
:06:25. > :06:29.have to give their sanction to that at a third stage. So the
:06:30. > :06:35.implications in terms of constituency parties and so on are a
:06:36. > :06:41.lot less than the idea that the 3 million who are currently affiliated
:06:42. > :06:46.will change. At the moment, the unions, because of the automatic
:06:47. > :06:51.affiliation, hand over a affiliation fees of about ?8 million a year to
:06:52. > :06:54.Labour. You will now get to keep that money, because the individuals
:06:55. > :07:03.will have to put up the money themselves. You can keep that money
:07:04. > :07:06.and determine if you give it to Labour to fight the election
:07:07. > :07:11.campaign, correct? Incorrect. Firstly, the affiliation fees are
:07:12. > :07:15.paid from what is called the political fund, which most unions
:07:16. > :07:19.have to set up in order to participate. The union will continue
:07:20. > :07:26.to pay the ?3 a affiliation fee for those members who want the union to
:07:27. > :07:33.be affiliated. But you get to keep a lot more money. In reality, we will
:07:34. > :07:41.see a transitional period of a few years. Less people will probably say
:07:42. > :07:46.yes, depending on how popular Labour are, about whether they want the
:07:47. > :07:58.union to give money to the Labour Party. The GMB has already done
:07:59. > :08:05.this. By the way, don't call me kneel. It is Andrew or Mr Neil. The
:08:06. > :08:08.unions will have a bigger chunk of money because the unions will not be
:08:09. > :08:13.handing over all of the money at one time. But you could still play a
:08:14. > :08:18.major part in funding the Labour election campaign. We'll how much
:08:19. > :08:25.you give the dependent on what the Labour Party puts in its manifesto?
:08:26. > :08:30.Of course it will. It will have to justify our support to Labour for
:08:31. > :08:36.the members who provide money to the political fund. If we did not argue
:08:37. > :08:39.for the cert is social justice campaigns and laws we want to see,
:08:40. > :08:43.we would be failing in our job. I don't intend to hide that from
:08:44. > :08:50.anybody. The unions are there to fight for their members. That is our
:08:51. > :08:54.job. So you will still be a major part of the bankroll of the Labour
:08:55. > :08:59.campaign. You will still have 5 % of the votes at a Labour conference,
:09:00. > :09:03.and you will still have a major part in the Labour National executive
:09:04. > :09:06.committee and the policy committee. It is right to say the unions are
:09:07. > :09:16.still at the heart of Labour, are they not? Well, if you sick to break
:09:17. > :09:21.the affiliated link between trade unions and the Labour Party, the
:09:22. > :09:24.whole thing collapses. That is what anchors the Labour Party as far as
:09:25. > :09:28.we are concerned. Many of our members think that when they want to
:09:29. > :09:32.look for ferrochrome and rights social justice, housing and the
:09:33. > :09:37.health service, Labour are better it quipped to deliver that for working
:09:38. > :09:39.people than the current parties That is why we have traditionally
:09:40. > :09:45.supported them. But not at all of our members support Labour, which is
:09:46. > :09:51.why we don't affiliate all of them to Labour. There are over 30 million
:09:52. > :10:02.people in the British labour force now. Union membership is only 6 5
:10:03. > :10:07.million out of that 30. A 6.5% of that do not vote Labour, they vote
:10:08. > :10:13.Tory or liberal or nationalist in Scotland. So you are a relatively
:10:14. > :10:18.small pressure group. Why should Labour be in thrall to you? We are
:10:19. > :10:25.the biggest voluntary organisation in this country. Sorry about that,
:10:26. > :10:29.but that is the fact. People make conscious choices. My own union the
:10:30. > :10:35.GMB, has been growing for eight years. So this dying picture you are
:10:36. > :10:39.trying to paint... In terms of accounting for the fact that some do
:10:40. > :10:46.not support Labour, that is why unions do not affiliate all of their
:10:47. > :10:49.members to the Labour Party. We have adjusted to that. If you don't like
:10:50. > :10:57.being called Neil, I don't like being called a barren either. What
:10:58. > :11:02.about Mr Baron? I don't like that either. We are representatives of
:11:03. > :11:05.working organisations. It may be inconvenient for politicians to have
:11:06. > :11:11.to listen to working people, but we will continue to press. Lord Baron,
:11:12. > :11:18.thank you very much. So, is this a Clause 4 moment for Ed
:11:19. > :11:22.Miliband? Not really, but to his credit, he is going ahead with this.
:11:23. > :11:26.There was a point at which it looked as though Ed Miliband would back
:11:27. > :11:31.away from reform. To his credit he is trying to create a mass
:11:32. > :11:34.membership party again. But when it comes to the crucial business of
:11:35. > :11:38.funding a general election campaign, these reforms will make Labour more
:11:39. > :11:45.reliant on large donations from trade unions. They could have more
:11:46. > :11:48.power now, because they get to hold back this money, whereas beforehand,
:11:49. > :11:54.they had to hand it over automatically. As Mr Kenny just
:11:55. > :12:01.said, how much they handover will be dependent on good behaviour. Yes,
:12:02. > :12:05.but these are pragmatic reforms The fact that Ed Miliband has a lot of
:12:06. > :12:09.capital in not being seen as a Blairite has helped him get these
:12:10. > :12:13.through . The response has been muted, which suggests good party
:12:14. > :12:17.management on his behalf. That may be because they will still have 50%
:12:18. > :12:21.of the votes at a party conference. Mr Kenny was clear that that could
:12:22. > :12:24.be deal-breaker if they tried to take that away. They have more
:12:25. > :12:32.places at the NEC than anyone else, and party members, if only 10% of
:12:33. > :12:36.them signed up, they will outweigh individual members in the
:12:37. > :12:40.constituencies. It was interesting, how relaxed Paul Kenny was. He was
:12:41. > :12:43.taking thousands of pounds from the Labour Party a few months ago
:12:44. > :12:47.because he was annoyed about these reforms, and now he is relaxed
:12:48. > :12:51.because they still have 50% of the vote at Labour Party conference and
:12:52. > :12:55.Labour Party Parliamentary candidates are still selected in the
:12:56. > :12:59.same way. But there is a simple point here. Yes, you can pick apart
:13:00. > :13:02.what Ed Miliband said and said the unions have too much influence, but
:13:03. > :13:07.the only way he could have gone all the way was to break the link with
:13:08. > :13:11.the trade unions, and he was not going to do that. It was not the
:13:12. > :13:15.Labour Party that founded the unions, it was the unions that
:13:16. > :13:22.founded the Labour Party. Even Tony Blair did not break the link. In
:13:23. > :13:26.that context, Ed Miliband has gone incredibly far. For the last 50
:13:27. > :13:30.years, this opting into the union, you have to turn to page 50 of your
:13:31. > :13:35.union terms and conditions to say, do you want to opt out of the
:13:36. > :13:41.political levy 's that is going to go, which will mean that when the
:13:42. > :13:45.next Labour leader is elected from the union votes, they will get their
:13:46. > :13:50.ballot from the Labour Party and you will append the fast where ballots
:13:51. > :13:53.went out from Unison macro and GMB with a picture of Ed Miliband on the
:13:54. > :13:58.front of the ballot paper saying, vote for aid. They were Stasi and
:13:59. > :14:05.Saddam Hussein ways of trade union members electing the Labour leader,
:14:06. > :14:07.which will go. I am sorry his Lordship is not still here to answer
:14:08. > :14:12.that question. HMS Coalition is not a happy ship.
:14:13. > :14:16.The lovey-dovey days in the rose garden are long gone. It is not a
:14:17. > :14:18.loveless marriage, perhaps even an open one. The latest split is over
:14:19. > :14:22.the decision by Education Secretary Michael Gove to replace Labour peer
:14:23. > :14:25.Sally Morgan as head of the schools inspectorate, Ofsted. Mr Gove's
:14:26. > :14:28.deputy, Lib Dem David Laws, is said to be spitting blood about her
:14:29. > :14:35.removal, although only through surrogates. He has not said a word
:14:36. > :14:46.on the record. Here was the Education Secretary a little
:14:47. > :14:49.earlier. If there is another opportunity for Sally to serve in a
:14:50. > :14:54.different role at a different time, then I would be delighted to support
:14:55. > :14:58.her in the role which she thinks it is appropriate to do. There is
:14:59. > :15:02.nothing wrong with Sally but there is a principle across government
:15:03. > :15:07.that there should be no automatic reappointment, and that after three
:15:08. > :15:12.or four years, it is appropriate to bring in a fresh pair of eyes. That
:15:13. > :15:18.is good corporate practice in order to ensure that you refresh boards,
:15:19. > :15:24.bring a new perspective, and have tough questions asked. We're joined
:15:25. > :15:27.now by the newly elected deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats
:15:28. > :15:32.Malcolm Bruce. He's in Aberdeen Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:15:33. > :15:38.David Laws is said to be furious with Michael Gove, is he? I think he
:15:39. > :15:43.is because Sally Morgan has been doing a good job and that has been
:15:44. > :15:47.generally agreed across the whole spectrum. I think Ofsted is an
:15:48. > :15:52.impartial body that inspects all schools and it shouldn't be subject
:15:53. > :15:57.to some kind of political direction. That is the concern, that she is
:15:58. > :16:00.being removed when she was doing a good job and most people thought she
:16:01. > :16:13.should be reappointed. It is strongly rumoured her successor will
:16:14. > :16:19.be a high-ranking Tory backer. Why hasn't David Laws said this himself,
:16:20. > :16:25.have you spoken to him? I have, and I know he is not very pleased about
:16:26. > :16:29.it but he will want to speak to Michael Gove himself when he gets to
:16:30. > :16:34.see him on Monday. The question you have to take on board is that David
:16:35. > :16:39.Laws is the schools minister, effectively the one who has
:16:40. > :16:43.engagement with Ofsted, and he is seeing it being undermined by the
:16:44. > :16:48.Secretary of State. There is a question that if Michael Gove is so
:16:49. > :16:53.pleased with Sally Morgan why is he replacing her, and who will he be
:16:54. > :16:57.replacing her with, and on what basis? Maybe parliament should have
:16:58. > :17:01.a confirmation hearing so that we can be assured that whoever is put
:17:02. > :17:10.in charge is there because they are good at it. Why has he licensed his
:17:11. > :17:16.surrogates to save this rather than saying it himself? He didn't, he
:17:17. > :17:23.knew I was on the programme this morning so I am giving you the
:17:24. > :17:29.answers as best I can. David is perfectly capable of speaking for
:17:30. > :17:34.himself. He hasn't so far. You asked me to come on this programme and
:17:35. > :17:38.David was anxious for me to know he wasn't happy about it, and I can
:17:39. > :17:43.certainly tell you that. I can also give you my own opinion which is
:17:44. > :17:51.that Ofsted is not the Department for Education, it is an independent
:17:52. > :17:55.body. The question you have to ask is will Michael Gove but someone in
:17:56. > :18:01.charge of Ofsted who will have a political agenda? If so, that is not
:18:02. > :18:07.what Ofsted should be used for. Let's move on to your own position.
:18:08. > :18:19.You are 69, white male, middle-class, what is your answer to
:18:20. > :18:23.the party with diversity problems? I don't think that is what they voted
:18:24. > :18:26.on. They felt I had a wealth of experience that would be vulnerable
:18:27. > :18:30.to the party from the period now until the election, not least
:18:31. > :18:36.because the central issues that will concern voters are the economy, and
:18:37. > :18:42.I have a track record of promoting the party's economic policy over
:18:43. > :18:47.many years. But you are not even standing at the next election. No,
:18:48. > :18:59.but we need to get to the next election and my colleagues have
:19:00. > :19:02.confidence that I can do a useful job for the party in that situation.
:19:03. > :19:05.We have developed and delivered policies that I have helped to shape
:19:06. > :19:07.and I want to persuade people to understand the Liberal Democrats
:19:08. > :19:11.have made a fundamental difference to the economic recovery. But you
:19:12. > :19:14.know what has been happening with the Liberal Democrats and their
:19:15. > :19:22.problems with women. Wasn't this a chance to select a woman in a major
:19:23. > :19:31.part? You only have seven female MPs out of 57, not a single Lib Dem
:19:32. > :19:35.woman in the Parliament. Again, why you rather than making a break and
:19:36. > :19:42.bringing someone in onto major positions? My colleagues have
:19:43. > :19:47.concluded that the role I am best qualified to do it, that is why they
:19:48. > :19:53.voted for me. We do only have seven women and that is an issue we need
:19:54. > :20:04.to address. Two of those women are ministers, one is a government whip.
:20:05. > :20:09.We seem to have lost our line to Aberdeen, just as Malcolm Bruce was
:20:10. > :20:16.in full flight defending his position. I'm not sure if we can get
:20:17. > :20:22.the line back, just bear with me for a few seconds to see if we can get
:20:23. > :20:26.it. It looks as if we have lost Malcolm Bruce, I do apologise to
:20:27. > :20:34.Malcolm Bruce and the viewers that we were not able to continue that
:20:35. > :20:37.interview. Fierce winds, torrential rain and a
:20:38. > :20:40.tidal surge have brought more misery to thousands. Official records show
:20:41. > :20:43.that southern England has seen the wettest January since records began
:20:44. > :20:45.in 1767. I remember it well. The Somerset Levels have been hit by
:20:46. > :20:51.weeks of flooding, with little respite from relentless rain. And,
:20:52. > :20:57.the residents of one village on the Levels, Muchelney, has been cut off
:20:58. > :21:12.for almost a month. We sent our Adam out with his wellies and a properly
:21:13. > :21:20.filled out risk assessment form The very wet road to Muchelney. This
:21:21. > :21:24.village of about 100 residents has been cut off for about four weeks,
:21:25. > :21:33.and like the weather vane, it feels a little bit spooky. It came up to
:21:34. > :21:38.here and your front door was there. Anita is just relieved the water
:21:39. > :21:44.stopped here, practically on her doorstep. Now it is the
:21:45. > :21:51.practicalities that are the problem. Driving around for food is quite a
:21:52. > :21:55.hassle. You are foraging. It's not as bad as that but we do have a few
:21:56. > :22:00.bits in the vegetable garden still, and we had some nice apples until
:22:01. > :22:08.the rats ate them but we are not doing too badly on that score. It
:22:09. > :22:14.sounds like the medieval! That's what it feels like. Talking of
:22:15. > :22:23.retro, who knew Somerset still had a Coleman, this is Brian's first
:22:24. > :22:26.delivery since Christmas. Everything has gone old-fashioned. We are now
:22:27. > :22:32.talking to neighbours we might never have seen before or spoken to so we
:22:33. > :22:38.are getting to know more people in the village. She's right, there has
:22:39. > :22:41.been an outbreak of Dunkirk spirit, quite literally. The council and the
:22:42. > :22:51.Fire Brigade have put on this boat service to get people to work and
:22:52. > :22:59.school. The church has become an unofficial flood HQ. This is where
:23:00. > :23:04.people pick up their mail, and this is where the people who run the boat
:23:05. > :23:09.stopped for their tea breaks. It all seems quite jolly, if a bit boring,
:23:10. > :23:16.but it is no fun for the homes and businesses that have been inundated,
:23:17. > :23:20.or for the farmers whose land is underwater, an area the size of
:23:21. > :23:25.Bristol, or for the villages which are less isolated but where the
:23:26. > :23:30.flooding is worse. People like the parish chairman are starting to get
:23:31. > :23:35.angry with how the Government has responded. It was all a bit late. We
:23:36. > :23:41.knew what was going to happen with the amount of rain on the fields and
:23:42. > :23:44.the Government was so slow to react. The county council got the
:23:45. > :23:49.boat going quickly but it was another four weeks nearly before the
:23:50. > :23:55.button was pressed for the major incident. Right on cue, the cavalry
:23:56. > :24:00.arrived in the shape of emergency crews from other parts of the UK.
:24:01. > :24:03.The rumour is that they will bring in a hovercraft but the bad news is
:24:04. > :24:10.that the weather is becoming more grim this weekend. There has been a
:24:11. > :24:14.surge in bookings at the campsite where people have seen the Somerset
:24:15. > :24:22.Levels on holiday and would like to come on holiday, if it ever stops
:24:23. > :24:27.raining. I'm delighted to say we have got the line back to Aberdeen,
:24:28. > :24:31.somebody has put a shilling in the meter. We can go back to Malcolm
:24:32. > :24:36.Bruce. We were talking about the Lib Dem women and your election, I
:24:37. > :24:46.suppose the point some people are making is that your party has as
:24:47. > :24:51.many knights in Parliament as it has women and you are one of them. The
:24:52. > :24:57.good news is that for the five MPs who are standing down, who have had
:24:58. > :25:03.candidates elected in their constituencies so far, all five
:25:04. > :25:07.candidates that have been selected are women. We need to fight hard to
:25:08. > :25:11.get behind those women and get them elected so that we have a much
:25:12. > :25:15.better balanced parliament in the future, but given that we have few
:25:16. > :25:23.women, you really have to pick people appropriate for the job and
:25:24. > :25:40.we have appointed the women as I have said but we need our image to
:25:41. > :25:44.be balanced. How many women candidates will there be come the
:25:45. > :25:50.next election? At the moment, 1 , five more than we have now, and we
:25:51. > :25:55.haven't finished selection. Where there are men sitting and standing
:25:56. > :25:59.again, that is not likely to change, but where they are standing down we
:26:00. > :26:06.are overwhelmingly choosing women, and in my view good and very able
:26:07. > :26:10.women. What I would want to say to people is that if you want to see
:26:11. > :26:21.the Lib Dems have more women, go to those seats and help us hold them.
:26:22. > :26:25.We are told that only 20% of the 57 seats have female candidates and in
:26:26. > :26:31.the unlikely event that you were able to hold onto them all, it still
:26:32. > :26:39.wouldn't be a sea change to have 20%. The point is you have to build
:26:40. > :26:44.them up. We are supporting female candidates. These are really good
:26:45. > :26:48.candidates who will make first-class MPs and I certainly believe you will
:26:49. > :26:54.gradually see the Liberal Democrats taking them on. We don't have 3 0
:26:55. > :27:01.seats that we currently hold like other parties, but what I can tell
:27:02. > :27:06.you is that increasing -- increasingly we will have female
:27:07. > :27:10.candidates. One newspaper has said that you will deal with the Chris
:27:11. > :27:15.Rennard fallout quickly and privately, what does that mean? It
:27:16. > :27:20.means I will not be telling you because these things are not helped
:27:21. > :27:24.by comments on the airwaves. I hope it will be possible to have a
:27:25. > :27:28.resolution without people going to court but I don't think it helps
:27:29. > :27:34.anybody for me to comment on any aspect of how this will be done and
:27:35. > :27:40.I'm not prepared to do so. If you are not in full possession of the
:27:41. > :27:46.facts, why did you say you will deal with this privately? I have come
:27:47. > :27:53.into this halfway through, I don't have full possession of the facts, I
:27:54. > :28:00.doubt you do, and we have a process that needs to be followed through.
:28:01. > :28:05.Any comments in public do not help. Isn't it hypocrisy of a high order
:28:06. > :28:11.to hear from a party that is constantly calling for transparency
:28:12. > :28:17.in other institutions but when it comes to your own, you say, I am not
:28:18. > :28:20.going to talk about it. There are all sorts of disputes that happen in
:28:21. > :28:25.the world and often people don't talk about them because talking
:28:26. > :28:29.about them aggravates the situation. I believe you have to
:28:30. > :28:33.deal with them privately and I don't think trial by media in this context
:28:34. > :28:37.is helpful and I don't believe that those who choose to make those
:28:38. > :28:43.comments are making it easier to solve them. There are problems in
:28:44. > :28:47.other walks of life and the Liberal Democrats are not the only ones with
:28:48. > :28:51.these problems. We are trying to change that culture and I think we
:28:52. > :28:57.will do it effectively in our own way. We have a pastoral care officer
:28:58. > :29:08.now and I think that is the right way to do it. Thank you for that.
:29:09. > :29:12.Let's now go back to the story of the flooding in Somerset. We are
:29:13. > :29:20.joined by the leader of the Green party, Natalie Bennett in Millbank.
:29:21. > :29:28.Natalie Bennett, don't the Green party bears some responsibility for
:29:29. > :29:32.these floods? You have sided with the Environment Agency in the
:29:33. > :29:38.decision not to dredge rivers and that is one of the reason why these
:29:39. > :29:45.places have been flooded. Firstly I want to give my sympathy to everyone
:29:46. > :29:52.dealing with these floods. The homeowners, the farmers seeing
:29:53. > :29:57.sodden fields for weeks and weeks. We get that, we all have huge
:29:58. > :30:02.sympathy, particularly because so little seems to be done to help
:30:03. > :30:06.them. What is the answer to my question? I think there is strong
:30:07. > :30:12.evidence that dredging is not the answer. If you think about the flow
:30:13. > :30:18.of the river, where the pinch points are is things like bridges, weirs
:30:19. > :30:22.and towns. If you dredge the river in between those barriers, you just
:30:23. > :30:28.make the water faster to those points. The experts are saying that
:30:29. > :30:32.dredging is not the answer, it may be in particular cases, but you have
:30:33. > :30:35.to look at each river system on its own merits and very often the best
:30:36. > :30:39.way of dealing with this is working out ways to slow the watered down
:30:40. > :30:47.and make sure that people don't suffer unduly while you are doing
:30:48. > :30:51.that. The west of England agricultural Society, which I would
:30:52. > :30:55.venture knows more about the Somerset Levels than either of us,
:30:56. > :30:59.has said that without dredging, this was a disaster waiting to happen.
:31:00. > :31:03.The local drainage boards have been calling for years for dredging to be
:31:04. > :31:08.resumed. The National Farmers' Union has called for it, and the chairman
:31:09. > :31:11.of the West Sussex flood defences has called for more drainage, and he
:31:12. > :31:15.is a drainage engineer by profession. So I don't know where
:31:16. > :31:23.your experts are, but the experts on the ground am not the urban ones in
:31:24. > :31:26.London, seem to think this has not been caused, but made worse by the
:31:27. > :31:31.failure of the Environment Agency to continue to dredge. If you look at
:31:32. > :31:35.the example of the planning and climate change coalition, which is
:31:36. > :31:39.led by the town and country planning Association, who you would not
:31:40. > :31:42.describe as a group of radical greens, these people have said we
:31:43. > :31:48.have to look at how we deal with flooding in the future. But not in
:31:49. > :31:50.Somerset. These are the people currently being flooded, not
:31:51. > :31:56.somebody sitting in a quango office in London. They have asked for this
:31:57. > :31:59.to happen and it hasn't, and they are now flooded in definitely. We
:32:00. > :32:04.have to look at what is happening on a case-by-case basis. If you look at
:32:05. > :32:09.Germany, there are many cases there were, to deal with flooding, many
:32:10. > :32:13.farmers are paid to hold water on their land. Maybe we need to
:32:14. > :32:18.introduce those systems, because we have to protect farmland, but we
:32:19. > :32:26.also have to protect urban areas for safety. We saw a horrible flood in
:32:27. > :32:32.Wales were lines were endangered -- where lives were endangered. That is
:32:33. > :32:36.the priority, to protect lives, property and farmland. Lives are
:32:37. > :32:40.endangered at the moment, particularly as this stagnant water
:32:41. > :32:44.turns toxic. And yet we are in a situation, again encouraged by the
:32:45. > :32:47.Greens and the lobbying Environment Agency, it says it does not want to
:32:48. > :32:53.dredge because dredging is expensive, yet it spends millions on
:32:54. > :32:57.a bird sanctuary. That is getting everything totally wrong. The
:32:58. > :33:01.government is getting everything one by cutting on flood defences. It has
:33:02. > :33:11.not cut on a bird sanctuaries. I don't know the details of that. But
:33:12. > :33:17.looking at the broader issue, we have to prepare for climate change.
:33:18. > :33:19.The government has slashed funding to the Environment Agency and has
:33:20. > :33:23.cut back on the number of staff available to deal with it and has
:33:24. > :33:28.removed the requirement on local councils to plan for climate change.
:33:29. > :33:32.These are all gambling the future of our lives and property and the
:33:33. > :33:38.future of our environment. Hasn t the high watermark of greenery now
:33:39. > :33:42.gone well past? You don't come out of the Somerset Levels with any
:33:43. > :33:46.great reputation. The UK government is now going to start fracking as
:33:47. > :33:52.quickly as it can. Brussels is loosening the CO2 obligations for
:33:53. > :33:56.2030. The President of America is about to give the go-ahead to the
:33:57. > :34:01.keystone pipeline, a totemic issue for American greens, and your party
:34:02. > :34:07.is in a state of civil war in Brighton. It is over, isn't it?
:34:08. > :34:13.Absolutely not. We are seeing large amounts of extreme weather around
:34:14. > :34:17.the world. Any one event is whether, but we are seeing a lot of it and
:34:18. > :34:21.people are recognising that climate change is happening. If we are going
:34:22. > :34:26.to quote international experts, I can quote to you Ban Ki-Moon, the UN
:34:27. > :34:29.Secretary-General, not known as a radical green, and he said after the
:34:30. > :34:34.IPCC report came out that the heat is on and we must act. If you go to
:34:35. > :34:37.Christine Lagarde, head of the International Monetary Fund, again
:34:38. > :34:41.not a radical green, she was asked what kept her awake at night, and
:34:42. > :34:45.she said, we are not doing enough about climate change. So actually,
:34:46. > :34:48.people around the world are looking at what is happening around them are
:34:49. > :34:54.both people on the ground and people in high positions are saying we have
:34:55. > :34:59.to act on climate change. And in the case of Britain, that should
:35:00. > :35:03.absolutely not mean fracking. Sorry to interrupt, but I have evidence
:35:04. > :35:06.that you are planning a little career change. Don't go away. This
:35:07. > :35:12.is what happens when you let Nigel Farage present the weather. One
:35:13. > :35:15.thing leads to another and low and behold, the Sunday Politics now has
:35:16. > :35:23.a new traffic and travel reporter. Let's go back to Green Party leader,
:35:24. > :35:28.Natalie Bennett. Thanks, Andrew It is easy out that, so let's start
:35:29. > :35:33.with our airports. I am pleased to say that Heathrow's third runway,
:35:34. > :35:38.Boris Island and all short-haul flights are, just like our
:35:39. > :35:45.arguments, well grounded. We suggest making or alternative arrangements,
:35:46. > :35:49.like a re-nationalised rail network, although it would be a
:35:50. > :35:53.glaring omission if we did not admit that that plan is currently being
:35:54. > :35:57.delayed by Labour Party foot dragging. Speaking of trains, we are
:35:58. > :36:04.hearing that high-speed two may well be derailing, or at least getting
:36:05. > :36:07.bogged down in political fog. One viewer, Ed Balls, has texted in to
:36:08. > :36:13.say he is completely lost. Thanks for the update, Ed. You are not
:36:14. > :36:20.alone among political commuters Meanwhile, dumped UKIP manifestoes
:36:21. > :36:24.are causing major tailbacks across the South, apparently stretching all
:36:25. > :36:30.the way to Brussels. This does make driving road tricky, but UKIP's MEPs
:36:31. > :36:38.can, of course, just hop on their gravy train. The tree had a
:36:39. > :36:45.roundabout is blocked after reports of a political earthquake. It seems
:36:46. > :36:49.that a green unwound his beard to block a dodgy gas extractor. A
:36:50. > :36:53.motorist who turned out to be the environment minister object into the
:36:54. > :36:58.delay and was told to frack off as furious badgers demanded that he
:36:59. > :37:03.stopped moving the goalposts. Unregulated traffic in the city of
:37:04. > :37:09.London continues unchecked. Pedestrians should try to block
:37:10. > :37:16.bankers with sacks of loot rushing for the payments. But do beware the
:37:17. > :37:21.Lib Dem Exodus that is clogging up the motorways. Although they are in
:37:22. > :37:25.a jam, or is it a fudge, we are happy to make way for them, as, like
:37:26. > :37:33.all refugees, we say they are welcome here in muesli green. That
:37:34. > :37:37.is the travel. Back to you, Andrew. Natalie, I think you make my point.
:37:38. > :37:42.You are now preparing a new career in traffic and travel. Well, I do
:37:43. > :37:46.believe in lifelong education and that was an example of it. We know
:37:47. > :37:55.you have had a tough time today to get to our studio. Thank you for the
:37:56. > :37:58.effort. You are watching the Sunday
:37:59. > :38:12.Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, we will have
:38:13. > :38:19.You're watching Sunday Politics for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Coming
:38:20. > :38:28.up. Deselected, we find out why Yorkshire's only female Conservative
:38:29. > :38:31.MP was rejected by the local party. And we look at calls to cap parish
:38:32. > :38:38.councils which propose inflation`busting tax increases.
:38:39. > :38:42.Let's say hello to our guests today. Philip Davies is the Conservative MP
:38:43. > :38:56.for Shipley and John Mann is Labour MP for Bassetlaw. Where you shocked
:38:57. > :39:00.when Anne McIntosh was deselected? I was. She must be absolutely
:39:01. > :39:05.distraught as she worked incredibly hard in the House of Commons and I
:39:06. > :39:08.feel sorry for her. But we are Democratic party and our local
:39:09. > :39:13.associations have the right to decide who they want as candidate.
:39:14. > :39:18.My local association can deselect me if they so choose and we have to
:39:19. > :39:25.accept that. The Tory party clearly has a real problem with women. Two
:39:26. > :39:29.in the North have stood down and now the third one has been booted out.
:39:30. > :39:36.That leaves none in the North of England. No Tory MPs in Yorkshire
:39:37. > :39:41.after the next election and perhaps two in the North of England. Is that
:39:42. > :39:45.healthy? It is not an issue that Anne McIntosh was a woman otherwise
:39:46. > :39:51.she wouldn't have been selected in the first place. That clearly isn't
:39:52. > :39:57.a factor. We want the best people in every constituency irrespective of
:39:58. > :40:06.their gender. I want to see the best people for the job. If it is women
:40:07. > :40:12.or men it doesn't matter. We have been following the deselection
:40:13. > :40:15.cycle. History was made here at Westminster
:40:16. > :40:22.on Friday and it was nail`biting stuff. Only 560 maximum number of
:40:23. > :40:28.ballot papers were sent down here from Thirsk and Malton. We were told
:40:29. > :40:32.it might take a while to verify that every single ballot paper came from
:40:33. > :40:39.a bone five member of the Conservative Party. That meant we
:40:40. > :40:44.should get the result by half past two. By three o'clock we were still
:40:45. > :40:49.waiting, by 330 PM we were still waiting. By that stage we were
:40:50. > :40:56.pretty sure that there would be an standing result. It came at four
:40:57. > :40:59.o'clock ` the news that the only female Conservative MP in Yorkshire
:41:00. > :41:04.had been deselected and would not stand at the next election. As she
:41:05. > :41:13.came out, Anne McIntosh told the assembled reporters she was going to
:41:14. > :41:18.take it lying down. I have faithfully served my constituents. I
:41:19. > :41:22.was initially in the European Parliament and more recently
:41:23. > :41:26.Westminster. I do not intend to be thrown aside by a small group. It is
:41:27. > :41:32.for my constituents as a whole to dismiss the FA wish to do so. I will
:41:33. > :41:36.stand and represent my constituency at the next general election and
:41:37. > :41:40.continue to fulfil my constituency and parliamentary duties including
:41:41. > :41:48.helping those candidates standing this year and next year with my
:41:49. > :41:53.customary fashion. This has been a passionate battle and an unexpected
:41:54. > :41:57.result for Anne McIntosh. When you go back to Thirsk and Malton, and I
:41:58. > :42:01.was there the day before this happened, frankly, it was almost
:42:02. > :42:09.impossible to find anybody who knew what was happening.
:42:10. > :42:17.This part of North Yorkshire is politically one of those places that
:42:18. > :42:28.time forgot. Since the 19th century it has nearly always voted
:42:29. > :42:35.Conservative . Even now, in this quiet market town, there is barely a
:42:36. > :42:40.hint that this political battle has been taking place. An increasingly
:42:41. > :42:45.vicious fight as we got closer to that all`important ballot.
:42:46. > :42:48.Allegations of dirty tricks and character assassinations,
:42:49. > :42:53.suggestions that maybe this was just a bunch of local Tory grandees,
:42:54. > :42:58.ex`military men who could not work with a woman. The most telling
:42:59. > :43:05.headline was the suggestion that the 59`year`old veteran MP had been
:43:06. > :43:13.called a silly little girl. That according to Peter Steveney shows
:43:14. > :43:16.how personal the fight began. It hit the headlines because of that
:43:17. > :43:25.allegation that somebody had called Anne McIntosh a silly little girl.
:43:26. > :43:30.Did that happen? Certainly not. It sounds like a typical thing to be
:43:31. > :43:36.put out. I am pretty appalled by that sort of comment. Whatever the
:43:37. > :43:41.cause, there is no doubt the row has ripped apart the unity of Tory
:43:42. > :43:45.activists in Thirsk and Malton. Is it a local spat or could it have
:43:46. > :43:50.more serious implications for the Conservative Party? This is the time
:43:51. > :43:56.when people get nervous before the election. Now they're thinking how
:43:57. > :43:59.are we going to win the seat? But unsettling people may be the most
:44:00. > :44:04.helpful thing to do. The key indicator will be what happens in
:44:05. > :44:11.the European elections and that will tell us how much of a threat UKIP
:44:12. > :44:13.could be in a general election. What is difficult to understand is how
:44:14. > :44:20.any politician with such are relatively successful track record
:44:21. > :44:26.could come under fire at all. And in peace and 1997 and now chair of a
:44:27. > :44:30.high`profile Select Committee. She is a fine chair of the environment
:44:31. > :44:36.food and rural affairs Select Committee and we appreciate the work
:44:37. > :44:42.she does. I hope that will be noted in the North of England. The verdict
:44:43. > :44:48.is now being looked at carefully by Conservative Central office. Another
:44:49. > :44:54.heavyweight MP also faces a deselection vote next week. Even on
:44:55. > :44:58.Friday night here it was clear straightaway that the interesting
:44:59. > :45:04.part now begins. Anne McIntosh says she will stand in 2015. It looks as
:45:05. > :45:08.though that will have to be as an independent. Meanwhile, the local
:45:09. > :45:13.association says it will now begin the process of choosing a new
:45:14. > :45:19.candidate for what is one of the plum seat with one of the biggest
:45:20. > :45:22.majorities in the country. You were both involved in a
:45:23. > :45:27.rebellion of sorts earlier in the week on the immigration bill. John
:45:28. > :45:34.Mann, you decided to join the Tory rebels. I voted for what my
:45:35. > :45:40.constituents would want. Serious criminals should be thrown out and
:45:41. > :45:45.we shouldn't have the European courts interfering. But Labour
:45:46. > :45:54.brought us the European human rights act. It was Winston Churchill
:45:55. > :45:59.originally. It is the interpretation of the law which is wrong. It would
:46:00. > :46:13.have been good if Parliament had put a shot across their bows. Philip
:46:14. > :46:19.Davies and think your views on the subject are well documented but does
:46:20. > :46:28.that rebellion gave power to your enemies? Is it damaging for
:46:29. > :46:34.electoral prospects? I'm not sure we are divided. I think every backbench
:46:35. > :46:38.MP voted for the amendment. It would make sure that serious criminals
:46:39. > :46:41.could not use the human rights act as a way of staying in the country
:46:42. > :46:47.when they are foreign nationals and they should be booted alt. That is
:46:48. > :46:52.what my constituents want and I applaud John for supporting that.
:46:53. > :46:57.The Government abstained and unfortunately it was the Labour
:46:58. > :47:03.Party who voted it down. Most of my constituents will be disappointed.
:47:04. > :47:07.The House of Lords have put a spanner in the works of the EU
:47:08. > :47:14.Referendum Bill. Where does that leave David Cameron's promise of a
:47:15. > :47:20.referendum by 2017? The Lords have come together to stop a referendum.
:47:21. > :47:25.Most of my constituents would like to have a say. The EU has changed
:47:26. > :47:32.remarkably since the beginning and we need a bill. It will be in the
:47:33. > :47:40.Conservative manifesto that if we win we will have a referendum on
:47:41. > :47:45.whether we stay in the EU. Town halls will set their budgets for the
:47:46. > :47:48.current year. The gunmen says local authorities can't raise their bills
:47:49. > :47:53.by more than 2% without holding a referendum. The same can't be said
:47:54. > :47:58.of parish councils, many of which are whooshing ahead with inflation
:47:59. > :48:04.busting increases. `` pushing ahead.
:48:05. > :48:09.Saxilby is a prosperous village near Lincoln. The resident 's enjoy
:48:10. > :48:13.facilities provided by the parish council in coding a library, youth
:48:14. > :48:19.club and community centre. But they come at a price. Saxilby parish
:48:20. > :48:23.council charges its residents more than any other parish in
:48:24. > :48:32.Lincolnshire. An average of ?100 per year. It is about to raise its bills
:48:33. > :48:39.further. We are putting our bills up by 7.5% this year. If you work it
:48:40. > :48:44.out to the local parishioners, it is only 15p per week. These are
:48:45. > :48:51.facilities for local people and they tell us that is what they want us to
:48:52. > :49:02.do. Are the people of Saxilby happy? I am quite happy. The parish council
:49:03. > :49:06.is doing a good job. There is a lot of evidence will you put money back
:49:07. > :49:14.into the community. I would like to see the village kept cleaner with
:49:15. > :49:18.letter mostly on there. And probably a few more things for young people.
:49:19. > :49:24.I am quite happy with these services. We have the library, which
:49:25. > :49:30.is a bonus. Parish councils in Lincolnshire put as little as ?10 on
:49:31. > :49:39.the annual council tax bill of well over ?1000. But unlike other
:49:40. > :49:42.authorities they are not capped. Last year, residents in this
:49:43. > :49:48.Lincolnshire village saw their parish precepts more than doubled.
:49:49. > :49:55.More than ?46 per year. It is helping to pay for a new village
:49:56. > :49:59.hall. A few people didn't agree with it and they didn't use the village
:50:00. > :50:05.amenities but a vast majority were for it. The local District Council
:50:06. > :50:13.leader says parish halls should look to do and charge more. Her own
:50:14. > :50:21.authority is being squeezed. My feeling is the local parishes can
:50:22. > :50:24.step up to the gap and provide services which the county and
:50:25. > :50:28.district authorities have had to reduce. I think a lot of the
:50:29. > :50:38.residents would say, yes, let's do it. Not everyone agrees. All
:50:39. > :50:43.councillors in parishes do their jobs for free. If the local
:50:44. > :50:48.authority want to ask parish and town is to provide services in their
:50:49. > :50:54.needs to be some finance otherwise it doesn't tally up. We do an awful
:50:55. > :50:59.lot of stuff but there is a limit to what you can do voluntarily. There
:51:00. > :51:04.are fears that the Government is looking to cap high spending
:51:05. > :51:08.parishes. But for now it looks like the sky is the limit for parish
:51:09. > :51:12.halls. Do you think it's right that parish
:51:13. > :51:20.council can put up their precepts by three times the rate of inflation? I
:51:21. > :51:25.don't think anyone should be capped. I think people should
:51:26. > :51:30.decide. Ever parish wants to have facilities in public services and
:51:31. > :51:35.that's what it votes for it then it should be entitled without the
:51:36. > :51:41.Government saying no. Should the parish councils be capped? I don't
:51:42. > :51:46.think we want excessive bills because people are struggling as it
:51:47. > :51:54.is. We don't want local councils putting money on to council tax
:51:55. > :52:01.bills are parish precepts. But if it is a small amount of money then it
:52:02. > :52:05.is unnecessary for a referendum. Parish councils can be treated
:52:06. > :52:09.slightly differently. I am a supporter of people volunteering for
:52:10. > :52:17.parish councils to do good in the local community. I think it should
:52:18. > :52:25.be applauded. I agree with John. When you look at capping 2% for
:52:26. > :52:30.local councils. Do you think many authorities, setting a budget for
:52:31. > :52:35.the coming year, will do as Brighton has done and put that to a
:52:36. > :52:41.referendum? If public services are well delivered and popular then
:52:42. > :52:45.people will pay for them. Councils need to show what they are doing and
:52:46. > :52:50.convince the electorate it is a good thing. That is why government
:52:51. > :52:58.capping and egg brother stepping in is a bad thing. We have a word for
:52:59. > :53:02.it and it is democracy. There are a lot of people who are voting for
:53:03. > :53:07.high spending councils and are actually not paying council tax. So
:53:08. > :53:17.people on the dole shouldn't get the vote? No, that's not what I said.
:53:18. > :53:20.But some people are not paying anything in expecting other people
:53:21. > :53:25.to pick up the tab. That's where I think there is a role for the
:53:26. > :53:31.Government to step in and have a referendum to gauge public support.
:53:32. > :53:42.Let's get some more of the week's political news.
:53:43. > :53:47.Newly released Thatcher Cabinet papers from 1984 have triggered
:53:48. > :54:02.fresh allegations of a plot to crash the miners. An apology was called
:54:03. > :54:11.for two `` does he believe it is through full transparency and
:54:12. > :54:14.reconciled? No. Obama has been welcomed on smoking in cars were
:54:15. > :54:21.children are more likely to be affected. But any law would be
:54:22. > :54:27.difficult to enforce. There is a view this is an extension of the
:54:28. > :54:34.nanny state. The reason for Leeds Bradford Airport's comparative
:54:35. > :54:40.failure to grow is alleged to the its distance from motorways. I think
:54:41. > :54:47.we have to be ambitious over the next 20 or 30 years.
:54:48. > :54:49.Why should the present government apologise for something that
:54:50. > :54:56.happened 30 years ago under a previous government during the
:54:57. > :55:01.miners strike? I'm not interested in whether they apologise or not. I
:55:02. > :55:08.want all the papers from the miners' strike and then the public
:55:09. > :55:13.can make its own view. Let's not have the Government hiding away and
:55:14. > :55:18.if they get them out there we can make our judgement. Should the
:55:19. > :55:26.Government apologise for what happened? No. The only person who
:55:27. > :55:31.should apologise was after Scargill. I was brought up in a mining area in
:55:32. > :55:36.Doncaster. My parents have a small business in a mining village. The
:55:37. > :55:43.miners' strike crippled that business. People were asking the
:55:44. > :55:46.business to contribute to the strike and if you didn't you got your
:55:47. > :55:52.windows through the next day. After Scargill should apologise for a
:55:53. > :55:59.leading miners up the garden path with a strike nobody voted for. I
:56:00. > :56:03.think nobody should be apologising. I am not a fan of after Scargill.
:56:04. > :56:08.But he was right, there was a secret hit list. It was lied about in
:56:09. > :56:13.Parliament. Let's have the papers out there. Why should the Government
:56:14. > :56:22.hold onto these papers secretly? Let the public see them. Does it bother
:56:23. > :56:31.you that there were 75 Mins on a hit list? It bothers me that after
:56:32. > :56:37.Scargill was using poor miners to try to bring down the Government.
:56:38. > :56:43.Let's have all the union papers released to show what after
:56:44. > :56:47.Scargill's agenda was. It wasn't after Scargill who got the miners on
:56:48. > :56:54.strike, it was the Tory government taking jobs away. He seems to think
:56:55. > :56:58.that people go on strike for a year on a whim. They don't. People
:56:59. > :57:06.starved during that strike. They were on strike to fight for their
:57:07. > :57:11.jobs. Communities have paid a huge price for what happened afterwards.
:57:12. > :57:17.Do you think we should still be talking about this 30 years on? I
:57:18. > :57:24.don't know why the Labour Party are bringing this up. Probably Len
:57:25. > :57:30.McCluskey has told them. Let's look to the future. You should never be
:57:31. > :57:37.scared of transparency. This is desperate stuff to get off the
:57:38. > :57:44.economy. Banning smoking in cars were children are passengers. Are
:57:45. > :57:47.you in favour? Yes. Why should a small child people listed in that
:57:48. > :57:54.way? They don't have a say and neither does their health. Children
:57:55. > :57:56.are 17 more times likely to breed in second`hand smoke in a car than
:57:57. > :58:03.other environments. Surely it should be banned. I'm not sure I accept
:58:04. > :58:06.that evidence. What is the difference between a car and
:58:07. > :58:12.caravan? It is an equally small space. There is no proposal to ban
:58:13. > :58:21.it in caravans. Why not? You could apply that to small flats. How are
:58:22. > :58:27.the police going to enforce this? It is not just young children, it is
:58:28. > :58:36.all children. It is a dog 's breakfast and unenforceable. It is
:58:37. > :58:41.gesture politics. That is what people said about the smoking ban in
:58:42. > :58:45.pubs in public places. It has been totally enforceable and people are
:58:46. > :58:48.living healthier and workers are not having their lungs polluted.
:58:49. > :58:54.Especially for children. Children have no choice over the smoke that
:58:55. > :59:01.is there. We must protect the health of children and it is a good thing.
:59:02. > :59:05.I don't think parents should be smoking in front of children in
:59:06. > :59:12.their homes. Anything we can do that protects the health of children, it
:59:13. > :59:18.is good governance. I think many ministers were against it. I would
:59:19. > :59:22.have preferred that the Government would have defended the interest of
:59:23. > :59:27.private property. It is your own car, your own home, you should be
:59:28. > :59:29.able to do what you want. I trust parents to build a look after
:59:30. > :59:39.children more than I trust the state. I will be voting against
:59:40. > :59:45.this. I think it is nonsensical. Do you think you will get enough
:59:46. > :59:50.support to get this through? I think so. The public mood is there. The
:59:51. > :59:56.smoking ban in pubs and clubs has been a good thing for improving
:59:57. > :00:06.health. It has close lots of pubs and clubs down. Give over! That the
:00:07. > :00:12.economy that has done that. You are cutting wages and standards of
:00:13. > :00:17.living. Unless you are a wealthy millionaire in London. That is who
:00:18. > :00:20.you are giving the money to. In the North of England, people are
:00:21. > :00:27.suffering because of your government and their economic policies. He is
:00:28. > :00:32.back to the old`style socialist Labour Party. Nothing has changed.
:00:33. > :00:39.Ed Miliband has taken us back to the 1980s. There is nothing wrong with
:00:40. > :00:43.standing up for people in the North of England, the vast majority of
:00:44. > :00:48.whose standards of living and have gone down. If the viewers are vastly
:00:49. > :00:52.better off, they can go with Philip Davies. That is not what I am
:00:53. > :00:57.hearing. This is a government for the rich and wealthy. I was worried
:00:58. > :01:02.that you both might agree that too much today but clearly not. Thank
:01:03. > :01:05.you to you both. We go back now to you to you both. We go back now to
:01:06. > :01:12.Not a complete denial! Hopefully a Conservative mayor again.
:01:13. > :01:19.Not a good week for David Cameron on the tricky European front last week.
:01:20. > :01:25.President Hollande said he was not interested in major treaty reform
:01:26. > :01:28.for 2017. That is when Mr Cameron hopes to hold his in-out referendum.
:01:29. > :01:33.And the private member's bill to put that referendum on the statute bill
:01:34. > :01:36.was killed by Labour and Lib Dem peers in the Lords. James Wharton
:01:37. > :01:45.was the Tory MP behind the bill and he joins me now. What happens now?
:01:46. > :01:48.It is out of my hands what happens now, because Labour and the Liberal
:01:49. > :01:52.Democrats conspired in the Lords to kill off my bill. One of the options
:01:53. > :01:56.is for another private member to bring a bill forward when they have
:01:57. > :02:00.the next private member's bill at, and we can try again. The prime
:02:01. > :02:06.minister has indicated that he will support that. But whatever happens,
:02:07. > :02:12.it will be in the Conservative manifesto at the next election. Do
:02:13. > :02:15.you accept that cost this is Tory policy and not government policy
:02:16. > :02:20.that the government policy elite macro cannot bring forward a bill?
:02:21. > :02:24.That is the problem. The Liberal Democrats, despite having promised a
:02:25. > :02:27.referendum in their manifesto at the last election, now will not allow
:02:28. > :02:32.government time for a bill to enshrine that in law. That was why I
:02:33. > :02:35.brought it forward as a private member's bill. David Cameron and the
:02:36. > :02:39.Conservative Party through everything behind that. To many
:02:40. > :02:43.people's surprise, we got it through all the House of Commons stages
:02:44. > :02:47.Sadly, to their discredit, Labour and Liberal Democrat peers, doing
:02:48. > :02:52.the bidding of their masters in the Commons, is conspired to kill it. Do
:02:53. > :02:56.you accept that it is Conservative policy, but not government policy,
:02:57. > :03:00.that you could not use the Parliament act to get this through
:03:01. > :03:06.the Lords? That is not the case The Parliament act is clear that if a
:03:07. > :03:08.public bill passes through the House of Commons twice in one
:03:09. > :03:13.Parliamentary period, there is a certain amount of time that has to
:03:14. > :03:17.be between both bills being presented. There are some procedural
:03:18. > :03:21.steps to be overcome, but there is no legal reason why the Parliament
:03:22. > :03:26.act could not come into effect. I was talking about you not having a
:03:27. > :03:29.majority in this case. That remains to be seen. We saw previously that
:03:30. > :03:33.Labour and the Liberal Democrats sent enough people to frustrate its
:03:34. > :03:38.progress to make it as difficult as possible, but not huge numbers to
:03:39. > :03:44.vote against it. On a Friday, huge numbers of MPs do not attend
:03:45. > :03:50.normally. Getting that number might prove difficult. The Parliament act,
:03:51. > :03:54.which is a bit of an atomic bomb in constitutional terms, if that was
:03:55. > :04:00.used, they would turn up to vote against you. Is it not the case that
:04:01. > :04:05.after the countryside Alliance tried to involve the courts in the hunting
:04:06. > :04:10.ban that it was made clear that the Parliament act was not to be used
:04:11. > :04:13.for constitutional issues? I don't think we know how many would turn up
:04:14. > :04:18.and we don't know how they would vote. One of the things that has
:04:19. > :04:21.been revealed as I have gone through the process of getting this bill to
:04:22. > :04:25.get a referendum through the Commons is that there are big splits in the
:04:26. > :04:30.Labour Party. One of the reasons we did not see them turning up in large
:04:31. > :04:33.numbers to stop this bill from happening was that Ed Miliband knew
:04:34. > :04:36.that if he tried to lead his own MPs through the lobbies to block a
:04:37. > :04:41.bill, the only purpose of which is to let Britain decides to give
:04:42. > :04:46.people a say on membership of the union, a lot of his MPs may not have
:04:47. > :04:50.followed him. It is all fantasy politics anyway. The French
:04:51. > :04:54.president has made clear that he has no interest in treaty change this
:04:55. > :05:01.side of 2017. He would need a referendum as well . And he needs
:05:02. > :05:05.that like a hole and had. Merkel is not keen, as she is in coalition
:05:06. > :05:10.with the social Democrats. Without the French or the Germans, it will
:05:11. > :05:16.not happen, end of story. The policy is that we will try to negotiate on
:05:17. > :05:21.getting a better deal. I hear what you are saying, but I don't
:05:22. > :05:24.recognise it as reality. We have a strong bargaining position. But
:05:25. > :05:29.whatever the result of that negotiation, it will be put in an
:05:30. > :05:32.in-out vote to the Britain people. It is time people were allowed to
:05:33. > :05:36.decide. It has been over a generation since we last had a say.
:05:37. > :05:40.David Cameron has committed to delivering that referendum. The
:05:41. > :05:44.Conservative Party will have it in our next manifesto for the election.
:05:45. > :05:48.Whatever happens to my bill or any other of the bill that comes
:05:49. > :05:52.forward. If people want a referendum, the only party that can
:05:53. > :05:58.deliver that in British politics is the Conservatives. Let me bring the
:05:59. > :06:02.panel in. Nick, where is this going? It is clear to me and anyone who
:06:03. > :06:06.follows European politics that there is no appetite for major treaty
:06:07. > :06:11.change in the short run, particularly for the kind of major
:06:12. > :06:14.changes that Vista Cameron says he is going to get, and yet the Tories
:06:15. > :06:18.are talking about Europe again when they should be talking about the
:06:19. > :06:23.economy. And Francois Hollande is looking at 2017, the year we are
:06:24. > :06:27.meant to have this referendum. There will be a French presidential
:06:28. > :06:30.election going on, and Nicolas Sarkozy will be back in play by
:06:31. > :06:37.then. But James has an interesting point, which is that it is down to
:06:38. > :06:41.Angela Merkel. She would be more receptive to David Cameron's ideas
:06:42. > :06:46.of reform than people assume. She has looked over the edge at a Europe
:06:47. > :06:50.without the UK and said, that is not acceptable, and I am willing to pay
:06:51. > :06:56.a price, not any price, but a price to keep the UK in the European
:06:57. > :07:00.Union. And the French, because the UK and France are the only serious
:07:01. > :07:03.military powers in Europe, will eventually come to that position. So
:07:04. > :07:09.there is more support for David Cameron than people assume. The
:07:10. > :07:18.French are also not a strong position in terms of the euro and
:07:19. > :07:27.French economy. The Foreign Office seem a bit more optimistic about
:07:28. > :07:31.it. Of course they are. Douglas Hurd once told me, we are winning the
:07:32. > :07:34.arguments on the single currency. Of course anything from the Foreign
:07:35. > :07:39.Office comes with a health warning, but if David Cameron had won a
:07:40. > :07:44.majority and was determined to renegotiate, he is in a strong
:07:45. > :07:48.position with Merkel. There is a possibility that the French could
:07:49. > :07:54.eventually be talked around. So it is not entirely bleak on that front
:07:55. > :07:58.for Cameron. When do the Tory party managers say, look, stop banging on
:07:59. > :08:03.about Europe again? The economy is going away. We still have an
:08:04. > :08:08.electoral mountain to climb. Let's just talk about that and not be
:08:09. > :08:13.divided. They should have done that some time ago. It is already too
:08:14. > :08:19.late. The Tories need a seven point lead in the polls to get image are
:08:20. > :08:23.tea. The way things are, that would require a huge change from where we
:08:24. > :08:29.are now . It is very unlikely to happen. So all this is happening in
:08:30. > :08:35.some bizarre imaginary space with wonderful rainbows and sunshine But
:08:36. > :08:43.we can detect the beginnings of a shift in the last couple of weeks.
:08:44. > :08:47.If you talk to Tory backbenchers, Douglas Carswell is now saying in
:08:48. > :08:52.public that it is time to stop the fighting. If they are to get even
:08:53. > :09:00.close to winning the election, they can't do it if they are all against
:09:01. > :09:04.each other. I don't think it is an imaginary space. It is likely that
:09:05. > :09:08.David Cameron will have the largest party in the election. If it is a
:09:09. > :09:10.hung parliament and it is the Liberal Democrats and the
:09:11. > :09:15.Conservative Party, David Cameron will save to Nick Clegg we gave you
:09:16. > :09:20.an AV referendum, I am having this referendum. And it will be difficult
:09:21. > :09:26.for Nick to say no. Let me go back to Mr Wharton. You are going to get
:09:27. > :09:30.a referendum in the manifesto. Other than Ken Clarke, everybody wants it.
:09:31. > :09:33.So why don't you just banked that and get behind the leadership
:09:34. > :09:39.Institute causing endless problems and coming across as a Europe
:09:40. > :09:44.accessed, divided party? I am absolutely behind the leadership.
:09:45. > :09:48.David Cameron announced the policy I am trying to bring forward in this
:09:49. > :09:55.bill. It is in line with the speech he gave this time last year. But
:09:56. > :10:00.getting that commitment into law will help to kick-start the
:10:01. > :10:05.negotiation process and mean everyone will know where we stand.
:10:06. > :10:09.But whatever happens, the Conservatives are committed to
:10:10. > :10:12.delivering a referendum. And to address the point that we talk about
:10:13. > :10:17.Europe too much, that is not the case. We have a good message on the
:10:18. > :10:23.economy, on tackling immigration and reforming welfare. There is more to
:10:24. > :10:28.do, but this is also an important part of policy. But at a time when
:10:29. > :10:33.the economic news seems to be turning in your direction, you are
:10:34. > :10:38.talking about the European referendum. Your backbench
:10:39. > :10:43.colleagues are trying to change the Immigration Bill every which way.
:10:44. > :10:48.Dominic Rather is putting in an amendment is and Mr Nigel Mills has
:10:49. > :10:52.been on this programme, putting in amendments that are clearly illegal.
:10:53. > :10:56.How is that helpful? The fact is that we are in a coalition, so there
:10:57. > :10:59.are areas of policy where Conservatives might want to go
:11:00. > :11:05.further and we are not able to do that. In other areas, we are
:11:06. > :11:12.delivering good reforms. But this is not a matter of going further. The
:11:13. > :11:15.mill 's amendment was clearly a contravention of the Treaty of Rome.
:11:16. > :11:19.That is where you get the headlines from. Some of your colleagues have a
:11:20. > :11:25.death wish? Would they rather have a Miliband government if the choice is
:11:26. > :11:29.an impure Cameron one instead? I don't think anyone in their right
:11:30. > :11:36.mind would rather have a Miliband government. Then why are they
:11:37. > :11:40.behaving that way? We have had some disagreements into the leak and
:11:41. > :11:44.debate within the party, but it was talked about on the panel just now.
:11:45. > :11:48.The Conservative Party is behind David Cameron and focused on winning
:11:49. > :11:52.the next election. Europe is one part of that. We have policies in a
:11:53. > :12:01.range of areas, but we are getting back on the right track. Thank you
:12:02. > :12:05.for being patient with us. Is this ghost story going to go
:12:06. > :12:08.somewhere? Mr Laws is talking through surrogates at the moment,
:12:09. > :12:17.but there is a strategy by the Lib Dems make these differential points
:12:18. > :12:22.now. I think it is fantastic coalition sports and entertaining,
:12:23. > :12:26.but in terms of out there, it has almost no traction whatsoever. I
:12:27. > :12:30.don't think any voters know who Baroness Morgan is and it sounds
:12:31. > :12:33.like one but politicians shouting at another bunch of politicians about
:12:34. > :12:39.their ability to give each other jobs. There is a larger point about
:12:40. > :12:42.the way Michael Gove runs his government. He is notoriously a very
:12:43. > :12:46.polite man surrounded by Rottweiler is, his advisers. He has made
:12:47. > :12:51.enemies of a lot of people in the media, and some of that will come
:12:52. > :12:55.back on him in the next 18 months. We shall see if Mr Laws himself
:12:56. > :12:59.sticks his head above the parapet. That is it for this week. The Daily
:13:00. > :13:04.Politics is on throughout the week at midday on BBC Two, except on
:13:05. > :13:09.Wednesdays, when we are on at 11:30am. I will be back next week at
:13:10. > :13:15.the same time. Remember, if it is Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.