:00:37. > :00:42.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:46.Can Ed Davey keep the lights on? Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or
:00:47. > :00:50.the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the
:00:51. > :00:53.Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better
:00:54. > :00:58.Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish
:00:59. > :01:01.Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?
:01:02. > :01:09.In Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, music They could be heading
:01:10. > :01:13.In Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, music boss Pete Waterman tells us why the
:01:14. > :01:16.government should speed boss Pete Waterman tells us why the
:01:17. > :01:17.government should speed up the construction of HS2 in the
:01:18. > :01:19.Service. The Mayor has a political move designed to silence his
:01:20. > :01:28.critics. And with me, as always, the most
:01:29. > :01:32.useless political panel in the business, who we're contractually
:01:33. > :01:36.obliged to insult on a weekly basis. But not today, because they are our
:01:37. > :01:44.chosen ones. They are the brightest and the best, we've even hired a
:01:45. > :01:51.plane to prove it: Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be
:01:52. > :01:53.tweeting throughout the programme. Right, left and centre of the
:01:54. > :01:56.Westminster Establishment have been unanimous in saying there would be
:01:57. > :02:01.no chance of monetary union with the rest of the UK for an independent
:02:02. > :02:04.Scotland. Then an unnamed minister spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't
:02:05. > :02:09.necessarily so, and that made the Guardian's front page. The SNP were
:02:10. > :02:15.delighted and the anti-independence campaign rushed to limit the damage.
:02:16. > :02:17.The faux pas has come at a time when the Better Together side was already
:02:18. > :02:23.beginning to worry that things were going the Nationalists' way. Let's
:02:24. > :02:25.speak to a leading light in that campaign, Scottish Secretary
:02:26. > :02:34.Alistair Carmichael, who's in Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal
:02:35. > :02:38.Democrat spring conference. Alistair Carmichael, why is there a
:02:39. > :02:49.sense of crisis now engulfing the no campaign? I think that is something
:02:50. > :02:54.of an overstatement. What you have got is, I am getting my own voice
:02:55. > :03:00.played back in my ear. What you have got here is one story from an
:03:01. > :03:04.unnamed source, a minister who we are told, we do not know for
:03:05. > :03:08.certain, who has speculated on the possibility of a currency union
:03:09. > :03:11.actually happening. I do not think that is helpful but it is not any
:03:12. > :03:16.big deal. You have to measure it against what we have got publicly
:03:17. > :03:19.named on the record. We have got a detailed intervention of the
:03:20. > :03:23.Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, outlining all the
:03:24. > :03:27.reasons why a currency union would not be a good idea. And then you
:03:28. > :03:31.have got independent advice from the permanent Secretary of the Treasury
:03:32. > :03:35.himself saying actually, this is such a bad idea, that I would never
:03:36. > :03:42.advise a chancellor to go ahead with it. You set one against the other
:03:43. > :03:45.and you see that pretty much the force of argument is very much
:03:46. > :03:49.against those of us who want to remain in the United Kingdom. All
:03:50. > :03:53.the minister was saying is come the day, if Westminster is negotiating
:03:54. > :03:57.with a new independent Scotland, a deal is to be done, Faslane where
:03:58. > :04:03.the nuclear deterrent is, there is nowhere else in the UK to put that
:04:04. > :04:07.is, certainly not for the next 20 years, a deal would be done, the
:04:08. > :04:10.nuclear weapons would stay in Faslane and Scotland would get a
:04:11. > :04:15.monetary union with the rest of the UK. That is perfectly plausible,
:04:16. > :04:20.isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is simply not plausible. The economy is
:04:21. > :04:24.more important than anything else. What you have had here is very clear
:04:25. > :04:28.advice from the treasury officials saying it is not in the economic
:04:29. > :04:32.best interests of the people of England Wales, Northern Ireland, any
:04:33. > :04:40.more than it is in the interests of people in Scotland. Where do you put
:04:41. > :04:49.the nukes? The outcome will not change. Where do you put the nukes
:04:50. > :04:52.when the Nationalists kick you out? I do not believe that will be a
:04:53. > :04:56.problem because I do not believe Scotland will vote for independence.
:04:57. > :05:01.But you might be asking the Scottish Nationalists, who are apparently
:05:02. > :05:04.promoting this, are they then not sincere when they say they want to
:05:05. > :05:10.remove nuclear weapons from Scotland? It seems to be a curious
:05:11. > :05:14.mixed message. As you know, I have not got the Nationalists, I have got
:05:15. > :05:27.you, so let me ask you the questions. You are widely seen as
:05:28. > :05:29.running a campaign which is too negative. The Nationalists are
:05:30. > :05:31.narrowing the gap in the poll found you are squabbling among yourselves.
:05:32. > :05:37.This campaign is going pear shaped, isn't it? No, let's deal with the
:05:38. > :05:42.polls. All the polls show that the people of Scotland want to stay as
:05:43. > :05:47.part of the United Kingdom. Yes, there were a couple of polls last
:05:48. > :05:52.week that said the gap was narrowing a little. The most recent poll of
:05:53. > :05:58.all, the poll on Wednesday which actually polled people's voting
:05:59. > :06:01.intentions on the question come September showed that only 28% of
:06:02. > :06:06.people in Scotland were prepared to say they were voting yes, as opposed
:06:07. > :06:12.to the 42% who were on our side of the argument saying they wish to
:06:13. > :06:16.remain part of the UK. That poll said women were skewing towards a
:06:17. > :06:21.yes vote and it showed that the don't knows were beginning to skew
:06:22. > :06:25.towards a yes vote. That is why you yourself wrote this morning that if
:06:26. > :06:31.your campaign does not get its act together, you would be sleepwalking
:06:32. > :06:35.into a split to quote yourself. No, to quote myself I said it was not
:06:36. > :06:40.impossible that the Nationalists could win that. That is absolutely
:06:41. > :06:43.the case. The biggest danger for the United Kingdom camp in this whole
:06:44. > :06:48.argument is people will look at the polls. They show us with a healthy
:06:49. > :07:05.lead consistently. As a consequence, they think this will not happen. It
:07:06. > :07:07.can happen. I have got to tell everybody that it could, not least
:07:08. > :07:09.because the Nationalists have an enormous advantage in terms of the
:07:10. > :07:12.amount of money they have at their disposal to buy momentum. They will
:07:13. > :07:15.be advertising in cinemas, in football matches and on social
:07:16. > :07:20.media. We have got to realise what is coming and as a consequence, we
:07:21. > :07:27.have got to get our arguments in place and our campaign as sharp as
:07:28. > :07:31.theirs. Thank you for joining us. Nick, this unnamed minister who gave
:07:32. > :07:39.you the story, did he or she know what they were doing? I do not think
:07:40. > :07:44.they were sitting there wanting to blast this out there, because the
:07:45. > :07:48.agreed government position was there will not be a currency union, if
:07:49. > :07:55.there is a vote for independence. But what I was managing to get hold
:07:56. > :07:59.of whether thoughts that are in the deeper recesses of people's minds,
:08:00. > :08:03.when they are looking at the polls which have been narrowing, or there
:08:04. > :08:06.was Alistair Carmichael quite rightly says, the pro-UK vote is
:08:07. > :08:12.still ahead. People are looking down the line, what would happen after
:08:13. > :08:15.the 18th of September this year, not just the next day but the next
:08:16. > :08:20.year, in those very lengthy negotiations that would take place,
:08:21. > :08:23.when there would be a lot of moving places on the table. You talked
:08:24. > :08:27.about Faslane, what would happen then and that is what I managed to
:08:28. > :08:32.get hold of, that there are thoughts about all those pieces that would be
:08:33. > :08:35.on the table. It is not surprising that some in Westminster think
:08:36. > :08:41.that. Let's take the Shadow Chancellor Danny Alexander at his
:08:42. > :08:45.word, they do not want a monetary union. But if they are faced with
:08:46. > :08:50.giving the Scots a monetary union in a post-independent Scotland, or
:08:51. > :08:53.having to remove the nuclear submarines from Faslane, where they
:08:54. > :08:59.have nowhere else to put them, probably except North America, there
:09:00. > :09:03.is a deal to be done. I think whatever minister gave Nick his
:09:04. > :09:07.story is probably onto something. If the Scots vote for independence, of
:09:08. > :09:12.course a deal will be done about the currency because it is not in
:09:13. > :09:14.London's interests to have a rancorous relationship with
:09:15. > :09:22.Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not done, how does one country stop
:09:23. > :09:29.another country using its. That is different. All London can really do
:09:30. > :09:33.is prevent Scottish intervention on the monetary policy committee. The
:09:34. > :09:37.interest rate would be set without any regard to the Scottish interest.
:09:38. > :09:42.Even that is only a fatal problem if the Scottish economy becomes so out
:09:43. > :09:47.of sync with the UK economy. Except it is a problem for Scotland's
:09:48. > :09:51.financial system because if you go down that route there is no means of
:09:52. > :09:54.injecting liquidity into the financial system in the financial
:09:55. > :09:59.crisis. That is why they would rather have a monetary union. Is it
:10:00. > :10:02.not remarkable to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland here that the
:10:03. > :10:06.Nationalists are spending too much money, when he represents a campaign
:10:07. > :10:09.which brings together all the major parties in the UK and all the
:10:10. > :10:13.resources of the UK and he is bleating about the Nationalists
:10:14. > :10:19.having more to spend? I did think that was a funny line and it was in
:10:20. > :10:22.the Observer. It lays into Alex Salmond's plucky upstart idea that
:10:23. > :10:28.he's taking on this big establishment. I thought it was a
:10:29. > :10:33.bizarre open goal, I am losing my football metaphors, forgive me. The
:10:34. > :10:41.polls are so in favour of a no vote. But the trend has been going
:10:42. > :10:45.their way. We have six months left which is not enough to close the
:10:46. > :10:53.gap. They always tell you Alex Salmond is a strong finisher. The
:10:54. > :10:56.plucky upstarts have this funding from a millionaire. The Better
:10:57. > :10:59.Together campaign are being incredibly cautious about where they
:11:00. > :11:03.get their money from. They do not want to go to the City of London
:11:04. > :11:06.Police say, give us a couple of million.
:11:07. > :11:09.Being Energy Secretary used to be a bit of a dawdle, especially when
:11:10. > :11:18.North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's very much a hot potato as Ed Davey
:11:19. > :11:25.has been finding out the hard way. High household energy bills have
:11:26. > :11:31.been top of his inbox. The big six energy companies account for 95% of
:11:32. > :11:35.the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem said there had been possible tacit
:11:36. > :11:40.coordination in the timing of price rises and ordered an investigation
:11:41. > :11:43.by the competition and markets authorities which will look at
:11:44. > :11:47.whether the big six should be broken up. Where does that leave
:11:48. > :11:52.investment? The boss of Centrica made the point that you would not
:11:53. > :11:56.spend money building an extension if you knew in two years time your home
:11:57. > :12:01.might be bulldozed. The spare margin, that is what is left in the
:12:02. > :12:06.generating system to cope with a surge in demand on a cold winter's
:12:07. > :12:11.night, is due to drop to historically low levels in 2016,
:12:12. > :12:16.according to Ofgem. Normally at around 15%, capacity could drop to
:12:17. > :12:22.2% after the next election and that could lead to a surge in the sale of
:12:23. > :12:25.candles. Now where is that light switch?
:12:26. > :12:33.Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me now. Oh, we have found the light
:12:34. > :12:38.switch! The gap between a peak winter demand and generating
:12:39. > :12:45.capacity could possibly reach 2% next winter or the winter after. We
:12:46. > :12:49.will keep the lights on, that is for clear. When we came to power, energy
:12:50. > :12:54.investment had been relatively low. The Labour Party had failed to deal
:12:55. > :13:00.with the energy deficit. From day one we have been pushing up
:13:01. > :13:05.massively. Investment has been 8 billion a year. Last year was a
:13:06. > :13:11.record. Spare capacity is now heading to 2%. Why are you allowing
:13:12. > :13:14.it to get that no? Because we have been increasing investment
:13:15. > :13:19.massively, last was a record level, we will be able to keep the lights
:13:20. > :13:21.on. Some of the figures you are showing suggests we are not doing
:13:22. > :13:27.anything. We have not only done enough in our last three years, we
:13:28. > :13:33.have put in measures to stimulate huge amounts of extra investment. We
:13:34. > :13:36.have the healthiest pipeline investment in our history. We will
:13:37. > :13:40.come onto investment in a minute. None of that change is the fact that
:13:41. > :13:49.we will be close to 2% next winter or the winter after that. We have
:13:50. > :13:55.one major power station shut down, or a cold winter away from having
:13:56. > :14:00.major problems with energy supply. It is still 2%. Let me explain. The
:14:01. > :14:04.figures assume we are not doing anything but we are doing something.
:14:05. > :14:08.Look at the National Grid. They are able to bring in energy from
:14:09. > :14:14.interconnector is because we are connected up to Europe. They are
:14:15. > :14:20.able to create a reserve so if we get to problems, they will have a
:14:21. > :14:26.mothballed plant they can bring on. You have not agreed with anybody on
:14:27. > :14:32.that. The decision was taken last July. But no supplier has agreed to
:14:33. > :14:38.under mothball its plant. We would not expect them to do that yet. Our
:14:39. > :14:43.plan is in place. On time, on schedule, as we already thought it
:14:44. > :14:49.would be. But you have not got a single agreement with a power supply
:14:50. > :14:56.who has mothballed plant to on the ball it. We did not expect to. Our
:14:57. > :15:00.plan is in me National Grid will do an election to allow those plants to
:15:01. > :15:03.come on. There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of
:15:04. > :15:06.power that can come in to come on. There is a huge amount of interest.
:15:07. > :15:11.There are gigawatts of power that can come into that auction and we
:15:12. > :15:15.are not other measures we can take and that is just in the short term.
:15:16. > :15:21.We have a plan for the medium-term. We will be running the first auction
:15:22. > :15:35.for new capacity. The final decision will be taken and we have learned
:15:36. > :15:37.lessons from what they do in North America and other European countries
:15:38. > :15:40.so we can stay minute mothballed plants and new plants to be built. I
:15:41. > :15:50.am absolutely clear there is not a problem. You only build 9000
:15:51. > :15:56.megawatts of new capacity from 2011-13. You have closed almost
:15:57. > :16:01.22,000 megawatts. Why would you be so cavalier with a nation's power
:16:02. > :16:04.supply? The last Government was cavalier because we knew those
:16:05. > :16:07.figures are happening because we've known for a long time a lot of power
:16:08. > :16:12.plants were coming to the end of their life, coal power plants,
:16:13. > :16:16.nuclear power plants, and we had to increase the rate of investment, but
:16:17. > :16:22.we... That shows clearly you are closing twice as much, you have to
:16:23. > :16:26.date, closed twice as much as you have opened, hence the lack of spare
:16:27. > :16:31.capacity. We knew a lot of them are coming back for the last Labour
:16:32. > :16:34.Government knew. We have increased the new so that's increasing
:16:35. > :16:38.significantly, far faster than under the last Government but also
:16:39. > :16:42.remember, you were very wrong at the beginning of your clip, margins at
:16:43. > :16:49.15% are very own usual. They are historically high. The average
:16:50. > :16:54.margin was 25%. That was wasting a huge amount of money. But since
:16:55. > :16:58.privatisation, we've had margins between 5% and 10%. Normally, high
:16:59. > :17:04.margins historically, which is costly. Now we will have
:17:05. > :17:09.historically low margins. People have to pay for that, so we make
:17:10. > :17:13.sure the lights stay on, we have a short-term policy I have described
:17:14. > :17:16.to you, and medium-term policy and a long-term policy. The long-term
:17:17. > :17:39.policy comes huge investment between nuclear and optional,
:17:40. > :17:44.policy comes huge investment between on. Ofgem, Independent, says the
:17:45. > :17:49.chance of blackouts by 2016 has increased fourfold under your watch.
:17:50. > :17:58.What they say, if you read the report, if we did nothing, they
:17:59. > :18:02.would be problems. But we have been working with Ofgem. We have been
:18:03. > :18:07.working with National Grid, and we have agreed that there will be a
:18:08. > :18:10.reserve capacity which can come on if we get to the peak for the Best
:18:11. > :18:18.not just on the supply side but demand and into connectors. You talk
:18:19. > :18:21.about industry having to move to off-peak times. We say, they are
:18:22. > :18:26.prepared to that you paid for it, and it makes commercial sense for
:18:27. > :18:30.them, it's a sensible thing for the Wii will pay them to move to
:18:31. > :18:33.off-peak. You have huge diesel parks for the you talk as if that
:18:34. > :18:36.something new but it's been around for a long time for the 200 these
:18:37. > :18:41.contracts out there. We want to expand that. You have hundreds of
:18:42. > :18:47.diesel generators to click into, haven't you? There's a whole range
:18:48. > :18:55.of generators. Diesel generation, dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed
:18:56. > :19:04.gas which can come. If you look at the increase of the independent
:19:05. > :19:08.generators, many companies, a range of power companies who are building
:19:09. > :19:13.a new power station and want to build new ones. This is a healthy
:19:14. > :19:17.situation. You say you made over 100 billion new investment between now
:19:18. > :19:21.and the end of the decade to restore capacity and meet renewable
:19:22. > :19:24.targets. Now you have referred the Big Six to the competition
:19:25. > :19:29.commission, how much of that to expect to come from them? We will
:19:30. > :19:33.see what the market delivers. We have always expected independent
:19:34. > :19:40.generators to do a lot more than is happening in the past. How much from
:19:41. > :19:45.the Big Six? It's not for me to say it's going to be best from that
:19:46. > :19:50.company. The real interest is we have huge amounts of companies
:19:51. > :19:52.wanting to invest. If you look at independent analysis, they say
:19:53. > :19:56.Britain is one of the best places to invest in energy in the world. We
:19:57. > :20:00.are the worldly do in offshore wind, one of the best for
:20:01. > :20:04.renewables, one of the only countries getting nuclear power
:20:05. > :20:08.stations. Rather than the bleaker picture you're painting, the reverse
:20:09. > :20:15.is the case. We are seeing an investment renaissance. You say
:20:16. > :20:20.that. Let me give you some facts. Under this Government, only one gas
:20:21. > :20:23.plant has been under construction, only one started under your watch
:20:24. > :20:28.for the others were done under Labour. You have none in the
:20:29. > :20:30.pipeline. The Big Six has pulled back from further investment
:20:31. > :20:33.including new offshore wind investment and none of what you're
:20:34. > :20:39.talking about will come before 2020 anyway. That's simply not true. The
:20:40. > :20:44.balance reserves I've talked about, the reserve planned: Making sure the
:20:45. > :20:47.mothballed plant could come on, I capacity market incentivising new
:20:48. > :20:53.power, will happen way before 2020, so that's not true. But doesn't
:20:54. > :20:57.answer the extra capacity. You have no answer between now and the end of
:20:58. > :21:03.this decade. We have three answers. Let me repeat them for you. I said
:21:04. > :21:07.permanent, not the short-term ones you are putting in place to try to
:21:08. > :21:11.do with spare capacity. We have a short-term plan, of course, that's
:21:12. > :21:15.very sensible. Medium-term plan, auctioning for new power stations.
:21:16. > :21:18.That can lead to both mothballed plant and when you plant, permanent
:21:19. > :21:25.plant being built, and the long-term plan, to stimulator long-term
:21:26. > :21:29.investment, some of which will be built and come online way before the
:21:30. > :21:34.end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's a far rosier picture than your
:21:35. > :21:38.painting. It's also far more expensive, too. Let's look at how
:21:39. > :21:43.you are replacing relatively cheap energy with much more expensive
:21:44. > :21:49.sources of energy. Wholesale prices is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a
:21:50. > :21:52.deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You have indexed it for 30 years at 2012
:21:53. > :22:09.prices. All of that puts up our bills. First
:22:10. > :22:15.of all, the support of the low Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has
:22:16. > :22:19.been driving peoples bills over the last decade has been wholesale gas
:22:20. > :22:24.prices. No one knows what guys prices are going to be in the future
:22:25. > :22:27.-- gas prices. When you look at the Ukraine and other market indicators,
:22:28. > :22:31.many people are worried that by the time nuclear power stations come
:22:32. > :22:34.online for example, the price of gas could be significantly higher. You
:22:35. > :22:40.have indexed linked that for them by the time you get any power from
:22:41. > :22:48.this, it'll be up to ?125 per megawatt hour. The price of gas been
:22:49. > :22:52.going up far higher. Not recently. Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not
:22:53. > :22:56.recently. The long-term forecast, Andrew, it's going to go higher but
:22:57. > :22:59.more importantly than that, this is an area we could disagree on but
:23:00. > :23:06.it's very important that power plants pay the cost of pollution. In
:23:07. > :23:08.those prizes, all of those prices except the wholesale out a steep
:23:09. > :23:13.price, you have those power stations paying the cost of air pollution. If
:23:14. > :23:19.gas and coal where paying the proper carbon price, you would see nuclear
:23:20. > :23:24.and renewables as competitive. It's very important that we ensure that
:23:25. > :23:28.power plants pay the cost of the pollution. When you were last on
:23:29. > :23:32.this programme to talk about this in May 2012, you said that the price of
:23:33. > :23:38.offshore wind was coming down fast. You told me it would be down by 30%
:23:39. > :23:43.in the next few years. That figure is 155, and for the deeper stuff,
:23:44. > :23:47.it's going to be ?165. That's the first year of a limit control
:23:48. > :23:55.framework which had it coming down. If you talk to many companies,
:23:56. > :24:04.Siemens had invested with their partners, ?310 million with two new
:24:05. > :24:09.factories. They are talking about lower prices because what they are
:24:10. > :24:13.saying to me is that, rather than the 30% cost reductions I talked
:24:14. > :24:18.about, I was wrong, they are targeting 40%. You said prices would
:24:19. > :24:23.come down 30% in two years for that that was 2012 and they have gone
:24:24. > :24:27.higher. I absolutely did not say that. Your exact quote was 30% in
:24:28. > :24:33.the next few years. Your exact few years. You said two years, I sell a
:24:34. > :24:38.few years. I haven't changed a single moment that you said two
:24:39. > :24:41.years, I said a few years. That's what we are projecting. They will
:24:42. > :24:45.come down. You have to invest in technology. Let me give you this
:24:46. > :24:49.example. When people invest in mobile phones to start off with,
:24:50. > :24:57.they were expensive, and they were clunky and the costs were going down
:24:58. > :25:04.for the one final question. You put the Big Six into investigation
:25:05. > :25:06.because they made a 5% return on investment and you're done a deal
:25:07. > :25:13.with EDF, nuclear power, which will guarantee them a return of 10% - 15%
:25:14. > :25:17.every year for 30 years. Doesn't that underline the shambles of your
:25:18. > :25:21.energy policy? You have mixed up two separate things. The 5% Ofgem are
:25:22. > :25:26.talking about is on the supply retail side. The percentage you
:25:27. > :25:32.quoted for EDF is in the wholesale side of two different markets. It's
:25:33. > :25:35.the same return. It's not. You are comparing apples and pears,
:25:36. > :25:41.dangerous thing to do. You have to do have a high return but in the
:25:42. > :25:48.retail market, with a 5% stake, there is less risk, says a low
:25:49. > :25:53.return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we haven't got more time. Thank you.
:25:54. > :25:57.Have me back. We will. Whatever happened to the BNP? The far right
:25:58. > :26:01.party looked as if it was on the verge of a major breakthrough not so
:26:02. > :26:04.long ago. Now it seems to be going nowhere. In a moment we'll be
:26:05. > :26:06.speaking to the party's press officer, Simon Derby. But first
:26:07. > :26:10.here's Giles. His report contains some flash photography. For a moment
:26:11. > :26:13.in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had a spring in their step, smiling at
:26:14. > :26:16.their success of winning two seats in the European Parliament. They
:26:17. > :26:20.already were the second largest party in a London council and had a
:26:21. > :26:30.London Assembly seat. Despite concerns from mainstream parties
:26:31. > :26:35.their vote was up. Our vote increased up to 943,000. Savouring
:26:36. > :26:37.success was brief that morning as anti-far right protestors invaded
:26:38. > :26:42.and egged the press conference and forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty
:26:43. > :26:45.retreat. What is more significant is that, in the years since, that
:26:46. > :26:54.retreat has been matched internally, electorally and in the minds of
:26:55. > :26:58.those who had given them that vote. For a number of years they were
:26:59. > :27:01.performing better than the UK Independence Party and other smaller
:27:02. > :27:05.parties like the Greens and respect. The problem for the BNP if they
:27:06. > :27:09.didn't make any inroads into other groups, they didn't go into the
:27:10. > :27:13.middle class, the young, they didn't go into women and ethnic minorities
:27:14. > :27:18.for obvious reasons. So the party was quickly handicapped from the
:27:19. > :27:21.outset. Not that you would have known that at the outset. In 2006 in
:27:22. > :27:24.Barking and Dagenham, the party won 12 council seats against a back drop
:27:25. > :27:27.of discontent with the ruling Labour council and Government and picking
:27:28. > :27:37.up on immigration and housing concerns in the borough. It's
:27:38. > :27:38.because of all the different nationality people moving in the
:27:39. > :27:44.area, they are taking over everything. My Nan and grandad lived
:27:45. > :27:51.there all their lives. I thought I would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah,
:27:52. > :27:56.they will get elected over here. When I came to Barking, Dagenham and
:27:57. > :28:00.Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a second largest party in one of the
:28:01. > :28:04.local councils. You can even find non-white people who voted BNP. Now
:28:05. > :28:08.they have no counsellors, and even though can when you talk to people,
:28:09. > :28:13.you will find among the older white working-class population concerned
:28:14. > :28:18.that the BNP claim to represent, everyone says they are nowhere. So
:28:19. > :28:24.what happened to that about? On behalf of all the people in Britain,
:28:25. > :28:29.we in Barking have not just beaten, that we have smashed the attempt of
:28:30. > :28:36.extremist outsiders. The local Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as
:28:37. > :28:40.she is now. I always knew if we could manage to ensure that wasn't a
:28:41. > :28:43.single BNP councillor left on the council and I won my seat, it would
:28:44. > :28:47.stop the process of disintegration. But what beat the BNP here in 2010
:28:48. > :28:50.was a mobilisation of the Labour vote. And today it is not hard to
:28:51. > :28:59.find the same discontent over the same issues. It's just finding a new
:29:00. > :29:02.political home. A couple of years ago, I used to vote Labour.
:29:03. > :29:06.Obviously, they haven't done nothing around here as much now, with jobs
:29:07. > :29:11.and unemployment, and housing and stuff like that about, basically,
:29:12. > :29:16.BNP ain't around here no more. Now it's more about UKIP and I believe
:29:17. > :29:19.that these UKIP are saying are true. If I thought BNP would make the
:29:20. > :29:25.difference, I would vote but is not in the people behind them. They all
:29:26. > :29:30.get bandaged with the same brush. I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP
:29:31. > :29:34.didn't get anywhere. What they say in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they
:29:35. > :29:38.will get somewhere. It's not racist but it's just that our kids haven't
:29:39. > :29:42.got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of UKIP is mutual but his once fellow
:29:43. > :29:45.MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the party issued a statement to this
:29:46. > :29:54.programme saying BNP failure is closer to home post 2010. It was
:29:55. > :30:08.after that election discontent arose amongst sections of the membership.
:30:09. > :30:13.Those members who left or were thrown out by Nick Griffin had
:30:14. > :30:17.already felt let down by his appearance on Question Time. It was
:30:18. > :30:25.a national platform for the BNP, something they felt they had the
:30:26. > :30:32.right to through electoral success. This was no big breakthrough moment
:30:33. > :30:36.for Griffin, unlike it was for John Marina pen when he appeared on
:30:37. > :30:40.national television in France. He went on to mobilise a national
:30:41. > :30:43.force. Despite there being some voters tuned to their message, for
:30:44. > :30:47.the BNP, becoming such a force here has never looked quite so difficult.
:30:48. > :30:55.And Simon Derby from the BNP joins me now. Welcome to the Sunday
:30:56. > :31:00.Politics. It was not long ago you had 55 councillors up and down the
:31:01. > :31:06.land, you now have two. You are on the brink of extinction. That is not
:31:07. > :31:11.true. I have watched the film. It is very negative as I would expect. The
:31:12. > :31:16.party has faced a few problems. The main thing to bear in mind is that
:31:17. > :31:22.the issues, the problems the country faces have gone away. We won nearly
:31:23. > :31:26.a million votes in the European elections. We brought that mandate
:31:27. > :31:38.to the establishment and we were denied. Let's face it, we would --
:31:39. > :31:43.were denied any opportunity to take place in the political apparatus.
:31:44. > :31:49.You have been destroyed by a pincer movement. UKIP has taken away or
:31:50. > :31:55.more respectable voters and the EDL is better at anti-Muslim protests
:31:56. > :32:00.and street thuggery. The EDL is not a political party. I take your point
:32:01. > :32:05.about UKIP. The power structure took a look at us and so we were a threat
:32:06. > :32:11.to power. We were not making this stuff up, we meant it and they have
:32:12. > :32:16.co-opted our message. This shameless promotion of UKIP, you have evenly
:32:17. > :32:20.had him presenting the weather on this programme. That is
:32:21. > :32:27.unbelievable. That was a joke. Across Europe, in France, your
:32:28. > :32:30.sister party the National front will probably do very well. You can see
:32:31. > :32:36.the rise of the far right across Western Europe so why are you in
:32:37. > :32:46.decline? We are not far right, I reject that label. How would you
:32:47. > :32:59.describe yourselves nationalists and Patriots. Why are you in decline and
:33:00. > :33:03.other similar parties to yours are on the rise? You mentioned Barking
:33:04. > :33:08.and it is very interesting because I was involved in that campaign. What
:33:09. > :33:13.Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party did, they replaced the white
:33:14. > :33:17.indigenous population in Barking and Dagenham with Africans, that is how
:33:18. > :33:22.they won that election. For that was true, you would be doing well
:33:23. > :33:26.elsewhere. You have now got a leader who is declared bankrupt and your
:33:27. > :33:34.party is heading for bankruptcy. No, it is not. It is over. You would
:33:35. > :33:38.like that. What I would like is irrelevant. Your membership is in
:33:39. > :33:44.deep decline. All parties have highs and lows. In 2009 they said it is no
:33:45. > :33:53.way you will win any seats in the European election. We did. And then
:33:54. > :33:58.you lost them. Parties win and lose seats. The Lib Dems will be
:33:59. > :34:06.annihilated. You deny you are far right. People used to say the BNP
:34:07. > :34:14.were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin appeared with Golden Dawn. They are
:34:15. > :34:20.not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is part and parcel of being in
:34:21. > :34:26.politics. You have to appear with them? Of course we do, we have to
:34:27. > :34:31.speak to ordinary people. I am perfectly happy speaking to you at
:34:32. > :34:36.the BBC, the BBC have a terrible reputation but I am happy to be
:34:37. > :34:41.here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when will the BBC apologised for trying
:34:42. > :34:45.to put him in prison twice, merely for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why
:34:46. > :34:54.can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and self? He would not appear. He was in
:34:55. > :35:01.Syria. He literally flew out to Damascus and prevented a war. We
:35:02. > :35:06.decided we would not interfere in Syria. The BBC never covered that.
:35:07. > :35:09.Please do not make out we are just an ordinary political party you
:35:10. > :35:16.cover like everybody else. It is completely different. All the signs
:35:17. > :35:21.are, membership, performance at the polls, performance at elections, the
:35:22. > :35:25.problem with your leadership is you are now going the way of the
:35:26. > :35:30.National front, heading for oblivion. As I said to you before,
:35:31. > :35:34.that may be the case, if all the problems we had not highlighted and
:35:35. > :35:40.how we got a huge vote so many years ago, six years ago now, five years
:35:41. > :35:45.ago, in 2009, if they were not around. These things are only going
:35:46. > :35:48.to get worse. We are looking at a prototype Islamic republic that is
:35:49. > :35:52.going to be set up in this country. That will lead to huge problems.
:35:53. > :35:57.Only the British National Party are prepared to say that and deal with
:35:58. > :36:02.it. Word leaked out that I was doing this interview with you before the
:36:03. > :36:06.weekend. Isn't it a sign of how irrelevant you now are that not a
:36:07. > :36:11.single person has turned up at New Broadcasting House this morning to
:36:12. > :36:17.protest? Used to be hundreds would turn up when we said the BNP were
:36:18. > :36:20.on. That is the left for you, they put the clocks forward and they
:36:21. > :36:23.could not be bothered to get out of bed. I think they are still in bed.
:36:24. > :36:26.Thank you. You're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:27. > :36:32.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday
:36:33. > :36:51.Hello, you are watching the politics show for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire.
:36:52. > :36:56.Music boss Pete Waterman tells us why the government should speed up
:36:57. > :37:01.construction of HS2 from London to the North.
:37:02. > :37:07.And the wind of change, why a German company has delivered a much needed
:37:08. > :37:10.jobs boost to the Humber. Our guests today are the Transport
:37:11. > :37:13.Minister and MP for Scarborough and Whitby MP Robert Goodwill, and the
:37:14. > :37:19.Shadow Home Office Minister and Labour MP for Hull North Diana
:37:20. > :37:23.Johnson. Hello. We are going to talk first about
:37:24. > :37:25.High Speed Rail. There are calls for the government to speed up
:37:26. > :37:29.construction of the Yorkshire leg of HS2. Bringing forward the building
:37:30. > :37:32.of line from Leeds and Sheffield to London would bring massive economic
:37:33. > :37:39.benefits, which would far outweigh the huge cost. `` the line. So says
:37:40. > :37:46.the music mogul who has been responsible for many a pop career,
:37:47. > :37:52.including Kylie Minogue. That is Pete Waterman. Len Tingle reports.
:37:53. > :37:58.For a decade, it Yorkshire has been lobbying for a net of rail service
:37:59. > :38:03.to change it economic situation. Now HS2 appears to be on the way. But it
:38:04. > :38:09.will have less chance of shooting up the economic charts if other towns
:38:10. > :38:14.and cities get High Speed Rail link first. And that coming from someone
:38:15. > :38:19.who knows about chart success. MUSIC: "I Should Be So Lucky" by
:38:20. > :38:24.Kylie Minogue. Kylie Minogue was one of those he
:38:25. > :38:30.helped. Pop producer and song writer Pete Waterman is an unlikely
:38:31. > :38:35.champion for building the ?43 billion High Speed Rail project from
:38:36. > :38:38.Sir. Tim points, so the economic benefits can be shared equally
:38:39. > :38:43.across the North and the Midlands. The multimillionaire spends as much
:38:44. > :38:48.time running his railway business `` dismisses as searching for the next
:38:49. > :38:53.Kylie Minogue. `` dismisses. It is not great having one vibrant
:38:54. > :39:01.town, you have to have the whole area so it spreads out. Bradford
:39:02. > :39:06.benefits, York benefits, places like that. So it spreads, because wealth
:39:07. > :39:12.spreads. That is the great thing about it. The company set up to plan
:39:13. > :39:17.and build HS2 says the schedule should be changed. It originally
:39:18. > :39:22.intended completing the first phase from London to Birmingham. Ten on
:39:23. > :39:32.the one from Manchester and the other to Sheffield and Leeds. But
:39:33. > :39:37.this time, there should be accessed to the North West, with Yorkshire
:39:38. > :39:45.linked seven years later, leaving places like Meadowhall on the
:39:46. > :39:50.sidelines, while areas the other side of the Pennines can market
:39:51. > :39:54.element opportunities with more and faster trains in service. That is
:39:55. > :40:00.enough time for even the biggest projects to be grabbed and
:40:01. > :40:06.completed. The speed of development is illustrated here, from concept,
:40:07. > :40:12.planning, building, to opening, Meadowhall took four years. The
:40:13. > :40:16.worry is that if HS2 gets into Lancashire seven years before it
:40:17. > :40:20.reaches here, all that fresh investment will already have been
:40:21. > :40:25.used up, leaving Meadowhall with a brand`new railhead but no economic
:40:26. > :40:30.benefit. But one influential economic think
:40:31. > :40:35.tank says timing is not as important as investing in and improving
:40:36. > :40:42.existing intercity rail services to link up with HS2 when it arrives.
:40:43. > :40:46.Northern hub is really important, taking forward that, you can
:40:47. > :40:51.potentially see more of those intercity networks, speeding up
:40:52. > :40:55.links between Leeds and Manchester. It is a priority beyond HS2. Those
:40:56. > :41:01.links could make it work. How ridiculous that Leeds is 40
:41:02. > :41:06.miles from Manchester and it takes one hour and ten minutes, that is
:41:07. > :41:11.ridiculous, it is unacceptable! We no longer have a choice. Either
:41:12. > :41:17.become a banana republic without the sunshine or we become a real country
:41:18. > :41:20.again, and that means we all have to not be selfish and we have to think
:41:21. > :41:24.about the greater good of everybody. If some people will be
:41:25. > :41:29.disenfranchised and they will lose a garden or a house, they release a
:41:30. > :41:35.factory, that is the way we have to do it. We have no choice. We cannot
:41:36. > :41:40.say to our grandchildren, I was not going to give up my garden for you
:41:41. > :41:45.to have a job in 30 years' time. That is not acceptable any more.
:41:46. > :41:48.These arguments of when, where and how fast construction should take
:41:49. > :41:53.place have a long way to go because the project, the biggest in rail
:41:54. > :41:59.history, is not expected to see trains reach Yorkshire until the 20
:42:00. > :42:07.30s. A bit of help from Kylie Minogue
:42:08. > :42:18.that! Is there an argument. Team to build HS2 from Yorkshire southwards?
:42:19. > :42:23.`` is there an argument to build. There are things we can do in
:42:24. > :42:25.Yorkshire before the line arrives, round the station in Leeds, there is
:42:26. > :42:31.potential for development to enable that to be ready for when the trains
:42:32. > :42:36.arrive. And the network will join to the conventional network so when HS2
:42:37. > :42:40.arrives in Leeds, trains will continue further North. And trains
:42:41. > :42:45.running through Manchester will go up to Glasgow. If the western leg
:42:46. > :42:54.gets to crew six years before Yorkshire, the North West will get
:42:55. > :42:58.the benefit. `` Crewe. We are at least starting this project, it has
:42:59. > :43:01.been delayed for decades and nobody has Pete Waterman had the guts to do
:43:02. > :43:06.it, because the North has always been losing out, and I was in
:43:07. > :43:09.Sheffield last week with the leader of the council and they are
:43:10. > :43:12.desperate to see HS2 in the North, they are desperate for the
:43:13. > :43:17.investment and the jobs it will bring to the North of England.
:43:18. > :43:23.Is Labour increasingly getting cold feet about HS2? Ed Balls said he
:43:24. > :43:29.could not promise a blank cheque and now the shadow Transport Secretary
:43:30. > :43:35.starting to question the cost. It is right Labour looks at the cost of
:43:36. > :43:39.this, there is no blank cheque. We accept we need to invest in the
:43:40. > :43:43.railways. I am very keen on the investment between the East and the
:43:44. > :43:47.West to link up the big northern cities. We have had to fight hard to
:43:48. > :43:58.get the money to electrify the line to hold. `` Hull. And we also have
:43:59. > :44:02.the issue of rolling stock, carriages going South because of the
:44:03. > :44:05.investments in the South not coming to the North. We have to fight hard
:44:06. > :44:10.in the North to make sure we get investment. This project cannot be
:44:11. > :44:16.done on the cheap. Labour is either in favour or against the idea. You
:44:17. > :44:20.should not say, you are not going to look at the cost to make sure we are
:44:21. > :44:26.getting value for money, we need to be careful about how the money is
:44:27. > :44:32.spent. Also, look at the economic benefit to the North. It is 42, 40
:44:33. > :44:43.?3 billion, perhaps more than 50 billion, can you still justify that?
:44:44. > :44:47.`` ?43 billion. For the first time in living memory, I say Ed Balls is
:44:48. > :44:53.right and we need to keep an eye on the cost. We are also investing in
:44:54. > :44:58.the conventional network, we are planning to electrify 850 miles of
:44:59. > :45:04.railway, that is 842 miles more than the previous government. We have
:45:05. > :45:07.listened and we have responded, but we are electrifying the
:45:08. > :45:13.trans`Pennine line so electric trains will run from Manchester to
:45:14. > :45:15.Leeds and more widely the northern hub will help connect a lot of the
:45:16. > :45:24.North of England and make it easier to get around. One of the biggest ``
:45:25. > :45:29.one of the biggest single job boosts ever seen in the North of England
:45:30. > :45:31.was announced this week. It involves the German engineering giant Siemens
:45:32. > :45:34.creating an offshore wind manufacturing centre on the Humber.
:45:35. > :45:37.It will mean at least 1,000 new jobs at two sites and the potential for
:45:38. > :45:40.hundreds more in the supply chain across Yorkshire and Lincolnshire.
:45:41. > :45:43.David Cameron described it as a "massive vote of confidence" in the
:45:44. > :45:51.regional economy. Paul Murphy has the story.
:45:52. > :45:59.These impressive machines support it growing manufacturing sector but to
:46:00. > :46:05.the frustration of the UK, they all made abroad. That is about to
:46:06. > :46:10.change. I remember talking to Siemens three years ago and we just
:46:11. > :46:14.kept going because I really believe in this investment for Humberside,
:46:15. > :46:19.it is skilled jobs, an important new business. It will make Britain a
:46:20. > :46:25.world leader in offshore wind. Siemens is planning two
:46:26. > :46:29.manufacturing plants, in Hull and downstream in the village of pool,
:46:30. > :46:34.creating 1,000 jobs and to perhaps more in the supply chain. It is
:46:35. > :46:40.another instalment of positive news for the region and it comes hot on
:46:41. > :46:47.the heels of Hull being named City of Culture. This is a city where
:46:48. > :46:52.things are happening. I think that has travelled around the country
:46:53. > :46:57.loud and clear and particularly earlier this week. In a city where
:46:58. > :47:02.youth unemployment often reaches record levels, there is a new sense
:47:03. > :47:06.of optimism. I would love to work for Siemens, it is a huge company
:47:07. > :47:10.and it will create a lot of opportunities for everyone.
:47:11. > :47:16.Everybody could get involved because it is so huge. This was the last big
:47:17. > :47:19.industry in Hull, a fishing port employing thousands, known
:47:20. > :47:24.throughout the world, but a political row over trawler grounds
:47:25. > :47:27.led to the collapse of the fleet in the 1970s and the dole queue for
:47:28. > :47:32.many. The dereliction of the. This is a reminder of how many `` the
:47:33. > :47:38.dereliction of the dogs is a reminder of how quickly industry can
:47:39. > :47:44.fall. For Ken, news of the investment lists his spirits. We
:47:45. > :47:50.need it more than news, this town will be buzzing again like it was in
:47:51. > :48:01.the 1960s onwards with the fishing industry, this could be as big, if
:48:02. > :48:08.not a go. `` if not eager. `` bigger. It has taken three years for
:48:09. > :48:13.the government to persuade Siemens to invest, the company were hesitant
:48:14. > :48:18.following concerns over levels of government subsidy. Those issues are
:48:19. > :48:25.behind us. When a government tries to change energy policy, it creates
:48:26. > :48:28.uncertainty, the climate bill passed at the end of last year and the
:48:29. > :48:35.uncertainty is behind as so we have decided to go forward. In the wake
:48:36. > :48:41.of the old maritime industry here, a new one is emerging. Siemens is,
:48:42. > :48:44.according to one local MP, the biggest fish that Hull has ever
:48:45. > :48:48.wondered. The challenge now for communities around the Humber is to
:48:49. > :48:57.make the most of the hand they have been dealt. `` has landed. The
:48:58. > :49:03.Humber has always been successful and the decline of the fishing
:49:04. > :49:05.industry hit us hard, but we have always been successful in maximising
:49:06. > :49:11.the Humber, and that has brought Siemens here.
:49:12. > :49:15.Siemens investment comes as the UN 's intergovernmental panel prepares
:49:16. > :49:19.to publish its first update on climate change for several years.
:49:20. > :49:23.Debates will continue about the Green credentials of this, the
:49:24. > :49:28.heaviest of industries, at its potential impact on the people of
:49:29. > :49:35.the Humber is obvious and there is a real sense of a new beginning for an
:49:36. > :49:41.often troubled regional economy. David Cameron described the deal as
:49:42. > :49:45.a vote of confidence in the government's long`term economic
:49:46. > :49:50.plan, do you agree? Let's be clear, this started in 2010 when Gordon
:49:51. > :49:56.Brown was Prime Minister. That is when it started and it has been four
:49:57. > :50:00.years to get to this point. I am delighted we had this news. There
:50:01. > :50:04.have been problems along the road, the government not clear about its
:50:05. > :50:11.commitment to renewables did not help, but it is great news for my
:50:12. > :50:15.city. David Cameron was praising Siemens and he said offshore wind
:50:16. > :50:24.would be the future for many people, but a couple of months ago, he used
:50:25. > :50:31.the C word. He said we need to cut the green... What has happens now?
:50:32. > :50:35.The good news keeps coming. We have a similar plan on the South bank of
:50:36. > :50:39.the river. We had an announcement from national express that there
:50:40. > :50:43.were placing it on hundred million pound order in my constituency.
:50:44. > :50:48.Hitachi are having their global headquarters in Sedgefield and their
:50:49. > :50:54.is the prospect of 1,000 mining field jobs in Yorkshire, so a lot of
:50:55. > :50:58.jobs are being created. There are more people working in the UK than
:50:59. > :51:03.ever before, that is great news for the economy and Yorkshire. It is
:51:04. > :51:07.getting harder for the `` labour to criticise the government's economic
:51:08. > :51:13.record. I am delighted these jobs are coming to Hull but I want to
:51:14. > :51:19.pick up on more people in work than ever before. That is right, but we
:51:20. > :51:25.need to look at the quality of jobs, more people on hours contracts, more
:51:26. > :51:28.people on part`time work. I spoke to women recently who said they wanted
:51:29. > :51:33.to work additional hours but they were not available. We want people
:51:34. > :51:37.in full`time work paid at a decent rate, because the minimum wage is
:51:38. > :51:42.not being enforced with a lot of employers and we need to make sure
:51:43. > :51:45.that is working for people. Lord Heseltine said areas like the
:51:46. > :51:51.Humber still needed more investment to create jobs, you cannot rely on
:51:52. > :51:55.single deals like Siemens. We also need to obscure the economy.
:51:56. > :52:00.I was at Sheffield, the University technical college, a high`speed
:52:01. > :52:04.project we were talking about, there will be a skills college with that,
:52:05. > :52:07.so there are two mentis opportunities for people to get
:52:08. > :52:11.skills in engineering and construction and take jobs as they
:52:12. > :52:16.become available `` tremendous opportunities. The emphasis is on
:52:17. > :52:20.apprenticeships and making things we can sell around the world, rather
:52:21. > :52:28.than relying on the financial services sector in the South East.
:52:29. > :52:31.But the energy giant `` and energy giant this week announced it was
:52:32. > :52:38.scrapping plans for four offshore wind projects because of the
:52:39. > :52:45.expense. This is an expensive way of producing electricity. But Siemens
:52:46. > :52:50.are a major company in the world. They are putting money into this, so
:52:51. > :52:53.these are not foolish people, they have looked at the economic
:52:54. > :52:59.advantages to their businesses of doing this and it is clear we are at
:53:00. > :53:04.the start of this industry in this country and we could be setting this
:53:05. > :53:11.new industry alight in Hull. We can become a renewable centre and costs
:53:12. > :53:16.will, down over time. `` will, down. Is this a message for Tory
:53:17. > :53:21.Eurosceptics, would Siemens be investing if we were not part of the
:53:22. > :53:30.EU? There are big frontages for jobs. It is not just Polish people
:53:31. > :53:35.coming here, British people are producing goods to be sold in Poland
:53:36. > :53:40.now. There is a downside to leaving the EU and before we took that step,
:53:41. > :53:45.we would have to look very carefully at the effect on jobs. Channel five,
:53:46. > :53:50.in what has been a good week for Hull, have been looking at your city
:53:51. > :53:53.and you are not happy. People are on benefits in
:53:54. > :53:58.Westminster and Chelsea, why are they looking at somewhere like Hull?
:53:59. > :54:01.It is a stereotype that people in the North on benefits and we have
:54:02. > :54:06.shown with this massive investment by Siemens that they are behind the
:54:07. > :54:12.times. They would need to look at the renewal of whole. `` they need
:54:13. > :54:14.to. `` they need to look at the renewal of Hull.
:54:15. > :54:15.Let's get some more of the week's political news now. Louise Martin
:54:16. > :54:30.has our round`up in 60 seconds. A BBC investigation has revealed
:54:31. > :54:35.rent arrears increased and hundreds of eviction notices have conserved
:54:36. > :54:40.across Yorkshire as a direct result of a squeeze on housing benefits.
:54:41. > :54:44.But in the last year, only 6% of those affected by this pairing tax
:54:45. > :54:51.in this region only `` actually moved house. `` the spare room tax.
:54:52. > :54:54.The government claimed it is on target and has made savings.
:54:55. > :55:01.A Tory councillor posted a picture showing a line`up of scantily clad
:55:02. > :55:04.women on Twitter and compared it to the short list used to choose a
:55:05. > :55:08.Labour candidate. Richard Davies has been forced to apologise for the
:55:09. > :55:15.photograph which he posted with the caption, actual posting of the
:55:16. > :55:19.hustings. And 100 days to go until the start
:55:20. > :55:23.of the Tour de France in Yorkshire on July the 5th, some of the biggest
:55:24. > :55:32.names in cycling were at Ripon and the draw for an official gala
:55:33. > :55:38.dinner. `` and Cathedral. 100 days to get into shape. Let's
:55:39. > :55:42.talk about the spare room subsidy. Only 6% of tenants have moved home,
:55:43. > :55:49.more than one in four are in rent arrears, are you surprised? Over a
:55:50. > :55:52.region this big, that is a lot of homes and that means people in
:55:53. > :55:57.overcrowded accommodation are using that additional capacity. It is
:55:58. > :56:01.important we do have a situation where people who do have spare
:56:02. > :56:05.bedrooms make them available for people to move into. The previous
:56:06. > :56:07.government recognise that I introducing the same rules for the
:56:08. > :56:16.private sector, we have extended that to the social rented sector so
:56:17. > :56:20.it was Labour's idea. Labour supports the welfare cap announced
:56:21. > :56:24.by the Chancellor, how can they support that when it is not willing
:56:25. > :56:29.to make sacrifices such as the spare room subsidy? We said we would scrap
:56:30. > :56:36.the bedroom tax, it is unfair and not practical. There 5,000
:56:37. > :56:40.households in affected by this and about 20, 30 homes available each
:56:41. > :56:45.week. So even if people want to move, they're not the homes
:56:46. > :56:53.available. As to the welfare cap, we have a of things we think will deal
:56:54. > :56:59.with some of the issues. `` a range of things. We want to take the
:57:00. > :57:05.winter fuel allowance away from the most wealthy pensioners. There are a
:57:06. > :57:11.number of things we can do while recognising people on benefits needs
:57:12. > :57:17.to be supported. On the Twitter message, does the Conservative party
:57:18. > :57:24.have a problem with women? Yes! No, we have a lot of women in
:57:25. > :57:28.Parliament. Not in Yorkshire. We were the first party to have a woman
:57:29. > :57:34.Prime Minister. Many people would see that picture is demeaning, but
:57:35. > :57:38.many women would see having an all women short list is demeaning
:57:39. > :57:43.because we believe if women get a role as an MP or counsellor, that
:57:44. > :57:48.should be on merit and not because they are a woman. The women in the
:57:49. > :57:52.Conservative party are making such a good contribution and they have the
:57:53. > :57:57.skills and the ability to do it, not just because of their gender. Opt
:57:58. > :58:03.all women short lists discrimination? They are not, they
:58:04. > :58:09.are a way of making sure we have women in Parliament and in politics.
:58:10. > :58:13.Parliament is still nearly 80% male dominated and that is not a healthy
:58:14. > :58:19.situation for a democracy. I stood on an all woman short list to be
:58:20. > :58:25.selected, I was elected by my constituents in 2005 and again in
:58:26. > :58:33.2010. I think this idea it is demeaning is utter rubbish. Would
:58:34. > :58:37.you like to see a woman candidate to replace and Macintosh? That would be
:58:38. > :58:46.brilliant. The more women we have, the better. `` Anne. We have a
:58:47. > :58:57.female Police and Crime Commissioner it in North Yorkshire who is doing a
:58:58. > :59:01.great job. Very few women MPs. She was the only woman you had in the
:59:02. > :59:07.region, that is a shame. We have a lot of women doing a great job, we
:59:08. > :59:11.have a female Home Secretary, we have women in the Cabinet and in
:59:12. > :59:16.ministerial departments. Not enough, and not in your team. David Cameron
:59:17. > :59:20.has made great strides to get more women into Parliament and we are
:59:21. > :59:28.getting more women into ministries. Not in your team! Not in the Lords.
:59:29. > :59:31.That is about it from us. Thanks to our guests today, Diana Johnson and
:59:32. > :59:36.Robert Goodwill. Now let's go back to Andrew Neil in London.
:59:37. > :59:53.Now let's get more from our political panel. If the BNP
:59:54. > :59:56.finished? They were never spectacularly successful to begin
:59:57. > :59:59.with but one of my childhood memories was a huge fuss in London
:00:00. > :00:03.about the fact that they won a few council seat on the Isle of dogs
:00:04. > :00:06.back in 1993. That was enough to cause a panic. As if they are
:00:07. > :00:10.falling from a great tit and I think the big difference with the National
:00:11. > :00:13.front in France is that they are building on decades of successful
:00:14. > :00:18.that they finished second in the presence of elections in 2002, I
:00:19. > :00:23.think. And, even in the 60s, they were versions of their politics. So
:00:24. > :00:32.they are building on a lot whereas the BNP are working with incredibly
:00:33. > :00:36.few raw materials in this country. It is interesting that the BNP does
:00:37. > :00:43.seem to be in decline in terms of its membership and financially, but
:00:44. > :00:47.in France, the far right party, not as far right as the BNP, but pretty
:00:48. > :00:53.far right, will probably do well in the second round of the French local
:00:54. > :00:59.elections. You could say the same about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties
:01:00. > :01:03.prosper when the picture is pre-rolled for them. If mainstream
:01:04. > :01:07.parties talk endlessly about immigration, saying you cannot get a
:01:08. > :01:10.council house because it has gone to an immigrant instead of saying it is
:01:11. > :01:14.because there are not enough council houses, that creates the conditions
:01:15. > :01:19.in which the far right can thrive. We are lucky that all the members of
:01:20. > :01:26.the BNP fell out with each other. As extreme members of the far right and
:01:27. > :01:31.left do. You can see that with the comedian in France, he has got a lot
:01:32. > :01:39.of support from people on the left as well. I asked Simon Derby was
:01:40. > :01:47.here victim of a pincer movement that UKIP were taken away voters and
:01:48. > :01:54.EDL has captured the Street protest. Yes, and Giles still not mention
:01:55. > :01:59.that the Labour Party has got its act together. They got the act
:02:00. > :02:05.together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge and Jon Cruddas did a very good job.
:02:06. > :02:09.I think UKIP would say, not a racist party but they are picking up votes
:02:10. > :02:12.from people who would once have voted BNP. But it is interesting the
:02:13. > :02:19.difference between Britain and France. Why is it that the Front
:02:20. > :02:27.Nationale came second in 2002 when they are not far right? I think they
:02:28. > :02:34.were on a five-year cycle because the next election was 2007. 2002
:02:35. > :02:48.they came second when Jean-Marie Le Pen came second. They are not as far
:02:49. > :02:52.right as the BNP. Marine has put them -- cleaned them up a bit.
:02:53. > :02:56.Diplomatically there is a much harder vote which spreads further
:02:57. > :03:09.across the electorate in France than there is in this country. This is a
:03:10. > :03:15.much more tolerant country. If Marine Le Pen does well today, she
:03:16. > :03:18.will not win that many because the centre-right and centre-left will
:03:19. > :03:25.always gang up against terror in the second round, but it sets the tone
:03:26. > :03:29.for the European elections. It does and for the next French presidential
:03:30. > :03:34.election as well. I think what she's doing masterfully is combining a far
:03:35. > :03:38.right politics with what you might call a far left economic politics.
:03:39. > :03:42.She's not just picking up votes from xenophobes, she is picking up votes
:03:43. > :03:48.from who feel victimised from globalisation. They are people who
:03:49. > :03:52.would be voting for socialists but are put off by the current
:03:53. > :03:57.president. That is what I do not think the British far right parties
:03:58. > :04:01.have been able to do. You sort Simon Derby try to tell you that the BNP
:04:02. > :04:05.are not far right party. I think he was going to say if you look at
:04:06. > :04:11.issues of protectionism, standing up against globalisation, they are
:04:12. > :04:16.quite statist. That is where the phrase National Socialist comes
:04:17. > :04:20.from. That is why a little bit of electoral success is often a killer
:04:21. > :04:24.for far right parties. They get a few council seats and then they are
:04:25. > :04:28.rubbish. They are not getting people's bins collected so they
:04:29. > :04:33.become part of the system that people were voting against in the
:04:34. > :04:37.first place. Lets go on to the Labour Party. If you are a Labour
:04:38. > :04:41.Party supporter and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the Sunday
:04:42. > :04:46.Times where you see a poll where the leader is up to seven points. If you
:04:47. > :04:51.are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the
:04:52. > :04:56.Observer, the left-wing paper, where the Labour leader is still 1%. I
:04:57. > :05:00.have read in the paper that there is quite a lot of of the record
:05:01. > :05:06.briefings going on at the top of the Labour Party. Give us a sense of the
:05:07. > :05:13.mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. One pol looks OK but there has been
:05:14. > :05:20.a run of polls where there is a lead over the Tories which is closing.
:05:21. > :05:27.There are worrying number of people who are what are called the 35s and
:05:28. > :05:31.they are people who thought all the Labour Party needs to do is sit
:05:32. > :05:34.still because there are a number of Liberal Democrat voters who hate the
:05:35. > :05:40.coalition. Because the Conservatives did not get through the boundary
:05:41. > :05:43.changes they needed to win, we can sit tight and it will all be fine.
:05:44. > :05:50.What a few wise old heads are concerned about is they feel this
:05:51. > :05:54.has a feel of 1987 about it when the Labour Party was united. They had a
:05:55. > :05:59.very good leader. The leader was impressive, the party was united and
:06:00. > :06:04.then what happened? They met the British people and an election. The
:06:05. > :06:07.British people said, terribly sorry, you are not occupying the party
:06:08. > :06:13.political territory where we will vote for you. There are some people
:06:14. > :06:17.from the Blair era who say it feels a bit complacent and there may be a
:06:18. > :06:23.bit of a shock when they meet the voters. We talk about people being
:06:24. > :06:27.unsettled but Ed Miliband is not unsettled. His defining
:06:28. > :06:31.characteristic is you might call it steadiness or you might call it a
:06:32. > :06:35.lack of agility. He could not respond to the pension stuff in the
:06:36. > :06:38.budget which was thrown at him. But he's very good at separating the
:06:39. > :06:42.signal from the noise. They may think this will all change in me.
:06:43. > :06:48.The Tories may be on the back foot after the European elections. He has
:06:49. > :06:54.the ability to set the political weather. He did it with the price
:06:55. > :06:58.freeze. There is no doubt that Mr Davey would not be referring these
:06:59. > :07:02.energy companies to the competition authorities if it had not been for
:07:03. > :07:05.that speech by the Labour leader. And we read today he has come up
:07:06. > :07:12.with another policy which will be attention grabbing to cut student
:07:13. > :07:15.tuition fees. It is easy to forget that before he announced the price
:07:16. > :07:19.freeze he was in as much vertical trouble as he is now. I think the
:07:20. > :07:26.Labour poll lead will expand up to five or 6% by the summer, assuming
:07:27. > :07:33.the Tories do badly. The question is, is five or 6% enough? Nick
:07:34. > :07:40.through the analogy with 1987. This reminds me of the Conservatives in
:07:41. > :07:45.2009/10. You have a steadily sinking poll lead, differences in what
:07:46. > :07:49.campaign they should be running and personal animosity behind the
:07:50. > :07:54.scenes. It led to them throwing away an election which seemed to be
:07:55. > :07:58.winnable. There is an important difference with the 1980s which was
:07:59. > :08:04.because you did not know when the election would be. Will it be in 87
:08:05. > :08:07.or 88? They do not need to make up their mind until next year. What
:08:08. > :08:11.they are telling the pollsters now, we do not like this government
:08:12. > :08:15.because of course, you do not like the government. But next January or
:08:16. > :08:19.February they will be making up their minds. Is there a lot of
:08:20. > :08:25.animosity among the leading Labour figures behind-the-scenes? It must
:08:26. > :08:29.be personal or tactical because there are not big ideological
:08:30. > :08:35.differences between them, is there? Yes and no. What is striking is how
:08:36. > :08:40.little support Miliband gets from the shadow cabinet. He does not have
:08:41. > :08:45.outriders. That has been a continuous theme. Said he feels he
:08:46. > :08:50.is on his own? That they feel they do not get support from him. There
:08:51. > :08:56.was a column by Jenni Russell saying he is distant and detached. And
:08:57. > :09:04.Andrew Walmsley touched on this in the Observer. One of the divisions
:09:05. > :09:09.is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible structural problem between those
:09:10. > :09:12.two. It is a real problem. Ed Miliband believes Ed Balls has not
:09:13. > :09:17.done enough to get economic red ability. Ed Balls believes Ed
:09:18. > :09:22.Miliband is making airy fairy speeches and it will not cut with
:09:23. > :09:26.the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miller band took part in the
:09:27. > :09:31.debate which happened earlier this week between the Lib Dems and UKIP.
:09:32. > :09:35.We have got another one coming up on the BBC on Wednesday night. Let's
:09:36. > :09:43.remind ourselves of what happened in last week's debate.
:09:44. > :09:51.I will ask Nick to open the batting. We are better off in Europe...
:09:52. > :09:58.Frankly not working any more. A referendum on Europe. I agree with
:09:59. > :10:07.you. I agree with you. If you can read the small print. Pull up the
:10:08. > :10:13.drawbridge, pool drawbridge up... We have 485 million people... It is
:10:14. > :10:20.simply not true! Not true. Not true. Not true. Identical with Nick. I
:10:21. > :10:26.don't agree with Nick. Based on facts, facts, the facts, facts, the
:10:27. > :10:32.facts... Thank God we did not listen to you. The food is getting better
:10:33. > :10:42.here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You have never had a proper job. Great
:10:43. > :10:47.not little England. Good night. I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two.
:10:48. > :10:53.Helen, what was the outcome of that and how do we mark our card for this
:10:54. > :10:57.week? It was not a great time for pundits. Everybody called the debate
:10:58. > :11:04.for Nick and then they said actually, we think it has gone the
:11:05. > :11:08.other way. Consensus emerged later on that Nick Clegg made a difficult
:11:09. > :11:12.argument. I think the most important thing Nigel Farage said was he
:11:13. > :11:16.distinguished out the immigration policy by saying we're not just
:11:17. > :11:20.closing day over, we want people to come, we just do not want mass EU
:11:21. > :11:25.immigration. That is an important thing for him to say to get away
:11:26. > :11:30.from the echoes of the far right. I suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us
:11:31. > :11:36.to read the small print. That was 11 turn he took. It compounded his
:11:37. > :11:40.reputation for being sneaky. I slightly disagree about the pundits.
:11:41. > :11:46.I say this as someone who thought far it would win. -- Nigel Farage
:11:47. > :11:50.would win. The fact that the public disagree with you and the public
:11:51. > :11:59.favoured Nigel Farage does not mean the public were wrong. The question
:12:00. > :12:05.is, who is going to tune in for the second one? What is the answer to
:12:06. > :12:11.that? Phil Collins argument is a man who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a
:12:12. > :12:15.binary choice in this debate. Clearly they need to brush up on
:12:16. > :12:18.opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg
:12:19. > :12:23.needs to brush up on the motions because he did not connect very
:12:24. > :12:29.well. Where Nick Clegg may go after Nigel Farage is when the -- when he
:12:30. > :12:34.said the EU has blood on its hands with Ukraine. He then came back to
:12:35. > :12:36.talk about the vanity of EU foreign policy and said European Union had
:12:37. > :12:42.made what was going on in Syria worse. It is one thing to say I do
:12:43. > :12:45.not think the UK should be part of the joint European foreign policy,
:12:46. > :12:49.it is part of another thing to say that Europe which will act with or
:12:50. > :12:52.without the UK is responsible for blood on the streets of Kiev and
:12:53. > :12:58.also responsible for exacerbating the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an
:12:59. > :13:05.hour is too long for Nigel Farage's shtick? That may be the case but
:13:06. > :13:09.Nick Clegg has precedence. He does that show and he has had to deal
:13:10. > :13:14.with the worst thing with dealing with what is thrown at him so he has
:13:15. > :13:18.honed his view consistently. We will see what happens in part two.
:13:19. > :13:21.That's all for this week. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime
:13:22. > :13:25.every day this week. I'll be here next week at the usual time of 11
:13:26. > :13:33.o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.