:00:35. > :00:38.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.Pressure on Culture Secretary Maria Miller mounts as the Tory press,
:00:42. > :00:46.Tory voters and even a Tory Minister turn against her. That's our top
:00:47. > :00:49.story. The economic outlook is getting
:00:50. > :00:53.rosier. But Ed Miliband is having none of it. The cost of living
:00:54. > :01:03.crisis is here to stay, says Labour. Shadow Minister Caroline Flint joins
:01:04. > :01:06.us for the Sunday Interview. And we bring you the Sunday Politics
:01:07. > :01:08.Gallery. But which former world leader is behind these paintings of
:01:09. > :01:13.world leaders? leader is behind these paintings of
:01:14. > :01:20.Coming up in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire: is it
:01:21. > :01:23.Coming up in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire: is it time to limit
:01:24. > :01:24.the number of keys on our high streets?
:01:25. > :01:30.new London borough. A blue flint for regeneration or economic Armageddon?
:01:31. > :01:35.And with me as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the
:01:36. > :01:38.business - Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. Their tweets will be
:01:39. > :01:44.as brief as a Cabinet Minister's apology.
:01:45. > :01:48.A frenzy of betting on the Grand National yesterday. But there was
:01:49. > :01:51.one book on which betting was suspended, and that was on the fate
:01:52. > :01:54.of Culture Secretary Maria Miller, now the 2/1 favourite to be forced
:01:55. > :01:56.out the Cabinet. She galloped through her apology to the Commons
:01:57. > :02:00.on Thursday in just through her apology to the Commons
:02:01. > :02:03.speed did her no favours. There s been mounting pressure on her to
:02:04. > :02:06.resign ever since, especially from Tories. And this weekend the
:02:07. > :02:09.Chairman of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority,
:02:10. > :02:12.Ian Kennedy, said it's time MPs gave away the power to decide how
:02:13. > :02:27.colleagues who break the rules are punished. An inquiry into Maria
:02:28. > :02:32.Miller's expenses claims was launch in 2012, following allegations he
:02:33. > :02:37.claimed ?90,000 to fund a house she lived in part time with her parents.
:02:38. > :02:40.She had designated this her second home. She was referred to the
:02:41. > :02:49.Parliamentary Standards Commissioner, who recommended that
:02:50. > :02:51.she repay ?45,000. But this week the Commons Standards
:02:52. > :02:54.she repay ?45,000. But this week the comprising of MPs from all parties,
:02:55. > :03:01.dismissed the complaint against Maria Miller and ordered her to
:03:02. > :03:08.repay just ?5,800 for inadvertently overclaiming her merge claimants.
:03:09. > :03:12.She was forced to apologise to the Commons for the legalistic way she
:03:13. > :03:17.dealt with the complaints against her. But Tony Gallagher told the
:03:18. > :03:21.Daily Politics on Friday: We got a third call from Craig Oliver who
:03:22. > :03:26.pointed out, she is looking at Leveson and the call is badly timed.
:03:27. > :03:28.I think if you are making a series of telephone calls to a newspaper
:03:29. > :03:29.organisation investigating the conduct of a Cabinet Minister, that
:03:30. > :03:34.comes close After that interview Craig Oliver
:03:35. > :03:39.contacted us, saying there was no threat in anyway over Leveson. I
:03:40. > :03:41.mead it clear at the time. Tony Gallagher is talking rubbish about
:03:42. > :03:45.me, and you can use that. Gallagher is talking rubbish about
:03:46. > :03:49.Telegraph have released a tape of a phone call between Maria Miller s
:03:50. > :03:55.aid, Joanna Hindley, and a reporter investigating her expenses claim.
:03:56. > :04:01.Joanna Hindley said: Maria's obviously been having quite
:04:02. > :04:05.a lot of editor's meetings around Leveson at the moment. So I'm just
:04:06. > :04:11.going to kind of flag up that connection for you to think about.
:04:12. > :04:13.The Prime Minister is sticking by his Culture Secretary, but this
:04:14. > :04:16.weekend's crescendo of criticism of her presents him with a problem and
:04:17. > :04:20.he could be wishing Maria Miller would just fall on her sword. Even
:04:21. > :04:25.over 80% of Tory voters in a Mail on Sunday poll think she should go On
:04:26. > :04:32.the Andrew Marr Show, the Work and Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan
:04:33. > :04:36.Smith, defended his colleague. I've known her always to be a reasonable
:04:37. > :04:40.and honest person. But is she doing the Government or her any good by
:04:41. > :04:43.staying in office at the moment do you think? This is a matter the
:04:44. > :04:48.Prime Minister has to take consideration of and she herself. My
:04:49. > :04:53.view generally is I'm supportive of Maria, because if we are not careful
:04:54. > :04:56.we end one a witch-hunt of somebody. And I'm joined now by the
:04:57. > :04:59.Conservative MP, Bob Stewart, and the man in the white suit, former MP
:05:00. > :05:02.and anti-sleaze campaigner Martin Bell. Welcome to you both. Stuart
:05:03. > :05:06.Stuart sturkts let me put this to you, a Conservative MP told this
:05:07. > :05:11.programme, this is a quote, she has handled this appallingly. Downing
:05:12. > :05:14.Street has acted like judge and jury, for Craig Oliver to get
:05:15. > :05:18.involved is disastrous. She's been protected by the whips from the
:05:19. > :05:23.start. What do you say to that? It's not great, is it? The fact of the
:05:24. > :05:28.matter is the question one should ask is, did she deliberately try to
:05:29. > :05:33.make money? Did she deliberately try to obscure ate? The answer is she
:05:34. > :05:38.certainly didn't deliberately try to make money, in the system, which was
:05:39. > :05:43.the old system, and with regard to obscure ago, I wasn't there, but
:05:44. > :05:47.let's put it this way. She was going through a quasi-judicial process and
:05:48. > :05:53.might have ended up in court, so she has a right to defend herself. Hold
:05:54. > :05:57.on o you said she doesn't do it to make money, she remortgaged the
:05:58. > :06:00.house a couple of times to earn more interest to us, the taxpayer, and
:06:01. > :06:04.when interest rates went down she didn't reduce the amount she was
:06:05. > :06:11.charging in expenses. Well, the point is the adjudicator said there
:06:12. > :06:15.was ?45,000 she was owed. And then a committee, Standards Committee, said
:06:16. > :06:19.actually it should be reduced. That was mainly MPs but there are three
:06:20. > :06:23.lay members. Yes, but they don't have the vote. OK, fine, that is
:06:24. > :06:27.where it is wrong and we've got to get it sorted. Let me put another
:06:28. > :06:32.quote from our Conservative MP. He didn't want to be named. None of you
:06:33. > :06:37.do at the moment. I'm being named. But you are backing her. George
:06:38. > :06:40.young in cahoots. He's been leading on the Standards Committee to find
:06:41. > :06:45.her innocent. The Standards Committee is unfit for purpose. I
:06:46. > :06:50.think the Standards Committee should be revisited. I think the system is
:06:51. > :06:56.still evolving. And I think actually we ought to have totally independent
:06:57. > :07:00.judgment on MPs' pay and allowances. We haven't have not got there yet
:07:01. > :07:05.and that is where it is wrong. Martin Bell, have MPs interfered in
:07:06. > :07:09.the Maria Miller process and with the current Standards Commissioner
:07:10. > :07:12.in the same way that they saw off a previous Commissioner they thought
:07:13. > :07:20.was too independent? Andrew it is exactly the same. Yesterday I looked
:07:21. > :07:26.at a diary entry I made for May 2000, I said, dreadful meeting
:07:27. > :07:32.standards and privileges, they are playing party politics. One of them
:07:33. > :07:38.told Elizabeth fill kin to her face the gossip in the tea room was she
:07:39. > :07:41.had gone crazy. Nothing's changed. What this shows is most of all,
:07:42. > :07:47.what's the committee for? If it is just going to rubber stamp what the
:07:48. > :07:52.party wants and its mates, I don't see any point. But it hasn't rubber
:07:53. > :07:56.stamped. It's changed it. Well, it has watered down. That's why we
:07:57. > :07:59.should make it totally independent and it shouldn't be involved in the
:08:00. > :08:07.House of Commons. It is and it shouldn't be involved in the
:08:08. > :08:11.change isn't it? MPs', scandal, and MPs closing ranks for one of their
:08:12. > :08:16.own. Has the Commons learned nothing? And this is after the
:08:17. > :08:20.expenses scandal, where everything was out for everybody to see, you
:08:21. > :08:24.would think MPs would be careful. This is before the expenses scandal.
:08:25. > :08:29.We are looking at an historical event, during your time, Martin not
:08:30. > :08:33.mine. I'm clean on this. You campaigned for him as an
:08:34. > :08:38.independent. I did, he was a good friend of mine. And now you've
:08:39. > :08:42.joined the club. And now you are defending Maria Miller? I'm
:08:43. > :08:45.defending someone who hasn't been proved guilty of anything beyond the
:08:46. > :08:50.fact she was rather slow to come forward with evidence. My point on
:08:51. > :08:52.that, is I understand that. MPs are being lambasted the whole time these
:08:53. > :08:57.days. There were a heck of a lot being lambasted the whole time these
:08:58. > :09:02.them, Martin, who are utterly decent. She didn't try to make
:09:03. > :09:05.money. We've just been through that. I don't think that's right. The jury
:09:06. > :09:10.is out on that. What should have happened in the Miller case, Martin
:09:11. > :09:13.Bell? I don't think there should be a committee on standards. I think
:09:14. > :09:18.the Commissioner should make a report. There has been to be justice
:09:19. > :09:24.for the MP complained against. Then the committee of the whole House can
:09:25. > :09:28.consider it. But we are, the House of Commons, then as now is incapable
:09:29. > :09:35.of regulating itself. That's been proving yet again. She made a
:09:36. > :09:38.perfunctory apology. She threatened and instructed the Standards
:09:39. > :09:44.Commissioner investigating her, and her special adviser linked expenses
:09:45. > :09:48.to Leveson, when trying to stop the Daily Telegraph from publishing I
:09:49. > :09:52.mean, is that the behaviour of a Cabinet Minister? Well, it's
:09:53. > :09:55.probably not the behaviour of someone that's got time on their
:09:56. > :10:01.hands. She's a very busy Cabinet Minister. Well, she had enough time
:10:02. > :10:07.to write lots of letters to the Standards Commission ser. She felt
:10:08. > :10:13.under such threat. She had the time. She had to make the time. Die know
:10:14. > :10:17.the lady is not trying desperately to make money. I disagree but on
:10:18. > :10:22.that. The fact of the matter is this was an old, old system, that
:10:23. > :10:25.we've tried to put right, or the Commons has tried to put right. I
:10:26. > :10:32.agree that MPs shouldn't get involved in this. Should we get rid
:10:33. > :10:36.of this committee? It serves no purpose except to cause trouble The
:10:37. > :10:40.adjudicator has said that and it should be the end of it. It
:10:41. > :10:45.shouldn't come back to the Commons. Although her special adviser
:10:46. > :10:48.threatened them over Leveson she was and is the Minister responsible for
:10:49. > :10:53.trying to introduce something like Leveson and that is something a big
:10:54. > :11:01.chunk that the press doesn't want. She is a target. It has a good
:11:02. > :11:06.record on this issue. It played wit a straight bat. The facts aren't in
:11:07. > :11:12.dispute are they? Will she make it to the next cabinet reshuffle and
:11:13. > :11:18.then go? Iain Duncan Smith said it is a matter for the Prime Minister.
:11:19. > :11:22.In my view, as things stand, I question did she deliberately want
:11:23. > :11:28.to make money? I don't think she did. Should she go? No. Should she
:11:29. > :11:31.be reshuffled? I don't know. Goodness me, you are asking someone
:11:32. > :11:37.who will never be reshuffled, because he will never make it. I was
:11:38. > :11:41.only asking for your opinion, not your ability to do it. This is a
:11:42. > :11:48.problem for Cameron isn't it? It is a problem for Cameron. There is
:11:49. > :11:53.nothing wrong with returning to be badge benches, as you know. Hear,
:11:54. > :11:58.hear. To that. Stick with me. Helen, can she survive? Is I'm going out of
:11:59. > :12:06.the prediction game when I said Clegg is going to win the date, so I
:12:07. > :12:13.owe Janan a tenner on that one. Grant Shapps has supported her. She
:12:14. > :12:19.was ringed by Sir George young and Jeremy Hunt... This is pretty
:12:20. > :12:22.devastating. On past form David Cameron hates having to bounce
:12:23. > :12:27.people out of the cabinet. He will want to keep Maria Miller until the
:12:28. > :12:30.summer reshuffle. This is a question mark on whether she survive this is.
:12:31. > :12:35.This isn't damaging to the Conservative or the Labour Party, it
:12:36. > :12:39.is damaging to everyone. This is catastrophic damage to the entire
:12:40. > :12:43.political establishment. Every single speech that David Cameron and
:12:44. > :12:47.Ed Miliband have given since 20 9, talking about restoring trust, they
:12:48. > :12:50.can wipe them from their computers, because voters are going to look
:12:51. > :12:55.that there and say, this lot haven't learnt anything. They are giving
:12:56. > :13:01.perfunctory apologies and then you have MPs sitting in judgment on MPs
:13:02. > :13:08.and rather than paying back ?45 000, she pays back ?5,800 after MPs have
:13:09. > :13:12.been into it. Damage is huge. Just getting rid of one Cabinet Minister,
:13:13. > :13:15.you will need to do more than that. You will notice that Labour haven't
:13:16. > :13:19.made huge weather of this. No, goodness me, they have their
:13:20. > :13:22.made huge weather of this. No, skeletons. Exactly. The person who
:13:23. > :13:28.has made hay out of this is Nigel Farage, who has not been backwards
:13:29. > :13:33.in coming forward. He doesn't seem to care about skeletons. The Prime
:13:34. > :13:36.Minister has be-Gunby backing her, but that's not popular even with
:13:37. > :13:41.Tory voters. How does he get out of this? This is the problem for him.
:13:42. > :13:47.Five years ago his reaction to the expenses scandal was seen by many
:13:48. > :13:52.Tory backbenchers as excessive. They felt hung out to dry by a man who is
:13:53. > :13:57.independently wealthy. To go from that to making a special exemption
:13:58. > :14:00.to Maria Miller because it is politically suitable is more
:14:01. > :14:03.incendiary and provocative. It is not just upsetting the voters and
:14:04. > :14:07.the Daily Telegraph but a good number of people behind him. I think
:14:08. > :14:13.they will get rid of her. I think the Government, to paraphrase
:14:14. > :14:19.Churchill, will zoo the decent thing after exhausting all options, of the
:14:20. > :14:25.European elections a reshuffle. The culture department has gone from a
:14:26. > :14:28.baulk water in haul to one of the most politically sensational jobs
:14:29. > :14:32.because of its proximity to the Leveson issue. She has to be
:14:33. > :14:47.replaced by someone Lily skillful and substantial. Mr Cameron is not
:14:48. > :14:54.short of smart women? Nikki Morgan, the education department, these are
:14:55. > :15:00.absolutely outstanding women and the problem that the generation elected
:15:01. > :15:05.in 2005, Maria Miller generation, there are some really good people
:15:06. > :15:11.in 2005, Maria Miller generation, elected in 2010. You are not
:15:12. > :15:16.responsible for hacking into the culture Department's Twitter account
:15:17. > :15:23.last night? I was out at the time! They all say that! One so, Maria
:15:24. > :15:30.Miller is like a modern-day Robin Hood... She robs the poor to help
:15:31. > :15:39.the rich. Which one of us has not embezzled the taxpayer? I reckon it
:15:40. > :15:48.is the lady. You have the perfect cover. We would not know how to
:15:49. > :15:54.would we? You cannot tweet from a mobile device, can you? Play it
:15:55. > :15:57.safe. No, do something dramatic Have lots of pledges. Have
:15:58. > :15:59.safe. No, do something dramatic few pledges. Ah, there must be a
:16:00. > :16:02.Labour policy review reaching its conclusion because everyone has some
:16:03. > :16:11.free advice for the party about its message and the man delivering it.
:16:12. > :16:16.Here's Adam. He is well liked by the public don't quite buy him as a
:16:17. > :16:19.leader. The papers say he is in hock to the unions and the party has a
:16:20. > :16:24.lead in the polls but it is not solid. Bartenders Neil Kinnock. That
:16:25. > :16:33.is what they said Winnie who lost the 1982 election. The whole country
:16:34. > :16:40.deserves better and we will work to ensure that the day will come when
:16:41. > :16:44.with the Labour government, the country will get better. Someone who
:16:45. > :16:51.was there can see some spooky parallels. The important lesson from
:16:52. > :16:54.1992 is it cannot rest on your laurels and hope for the best, you
:16:55. > :16:59.cannot sit on a lead of seven points because the election narrows that
:17:00. > :17:02.and you cannot rely on the government not getting its act
:17:03. > :17:07.together because the Conservative Party was well funded and organised,
:17:08. > :17:12.the double whammy posters, the tax bombshell, but incredibly effective
:17:13. > :17:19.and the message was unified and they beat us on the campaign. The lesson
:17:20. > :17:22.for Labour today is this lead will evaporate quite possibly over the
:17:23. > :17:28.next few months and we might go into the election behind in the polls.
:17:29. > :17:32.But Ed Miliband is getting conflicting advice about how to
:17:33. > :17:38.avoid 1992 happening. Be bold, be cautious and then, the idea that
:17:39. > :17:43.Labour can squeak into office with just 35% of
:17:44. > :17:45.Labour can squeak into office with some people. Each month, the Labour
:17:46. > :17:52.Party meets around the country and last week, everybody spoke about the
:17:53. > :17:57.dangers of this 35% strategy. They were increasingly unhappy and it is
:17:58. > :18:03.very important that those people around the leader naturally have a
:18:04. > :18:08.duty to protect him and they make sure he gets this message that while
:18:09. > :18:13.there is total support for him, they do want this key year in the run-up
:18:14. > :18:20.to the General Election to be putting out an alternative which we
:18:21. > :18:22.can defend on the doorstep. The doorstep where Neil Kinnock made his
:18:23. > :18:31.concession speech is crammed with Spanish back hackers. The old Labour
:18:32. > :18:35.offices are no a budget hostel. Labour headquarters is down the road
:18:36. > :18:39.and they are putting the finishing touches to a speech Ed Miliband will
:18:40. > :18:42.give this week about the cost of living and I am told he will drop
:18:43. > :18:48.hints about new policies in juicy areas like housing, low pay, growth
:18:49. > :18:51.and devolving power. As for the charge that they are not radical
:18:52. > :18:57.enough, his people say they want to be bold but they have to be credible
:18:58. > :19:01.as well. They say that Labour is more united than it has ever been
:19:02. > :19:04.but there has been some grumbling that the cost of living campaign is
:19:05. > :19:10.not the same as a vision for the country. And that Ed Miliband was
:19:11. > :19:13.not statesman-like enough at Prime Minister's Questions and one figure
:19:14. > :19:18.who sat at the same table in the Neil Kinnock years summed it up like
:19:19. > :19:21.this. Things are OK but it feels like we're playing for the draw
:19:22. > :19:36.Shadow Energy Secretary Caroline Flint joins me now for the Sunday
:19:37. > :19:42.Interview. This 35% victory strategy, it does not sound very
:19:43. > :19:45.ambitious? I am campaigning to win this election with a majority
:19:46. > :19:52.government and everybody else around the table is also. But we want to go
:19:53. > :19:56.to every corner of the country and win votes for Labour and win seats,
:19:57. > :20:04.that is what we are working towards. To avoid last time, the coalition
:20:05. > :20:10.bartering. But that 35% is a victory strategy so are you saying there is
:20:11. > :20:15.no 35% strategy and that no one at the heart of Labour is not arguing
:20:16. > :20:19.for this? We are working to win around the country and to win all of
:20:20. > :20:24.those battle ground seats and we must have a strategy that appeals to
:20:25. > :20:28.a cross-section of the public but within that, that broad group Queen
:20:29. > :20:37.Elizabeth Olympic Park and. You could do that with 35% of the vote?
:20:38. > :20:43.There is lots of polling and everyone looks at this about what we
:20:44. > :20:46.need to do to get seats and we want to have a comprehensive majority at
:20:47. > :20:53.the next election to win to govern this country. Last week, we have
:20:54. > :20:58.been reading reports of splits in the party over policy and on
:20:59. > :21:04.tactics, even strategy. A struggle for control of the General Election
:21:05. > :21:10.manifesto, we are told. What are you arguing over? I said on the
:21:11. > :21:14.committee and just listening to the film before, it is about being
:21:15. > :21:20.radical but also credible and we are talking about evolution and that is
:21:21. > :21:26.an important subject but we are also united and to be honest, in 201
:21:27. > :21:30.people were writing us off saying we would turn on ourselves and that has
:21:31. > :21:34.not been the case. We are not arguing about the fundamentals, we
:21:35. > :21:39.are discussing the policies that are coming up with different colleagues
:21:40. > :21:42.and talking about how we can make sure they are presented to the
:21:43. > :21:48.public and that is part of a process. That is a discussion, not
:21:49. > :21:52.disagreement. The Financial Times, which is usually pretty fair,
:21:53. > :21:58.reports a battle between Ed Miliband's radical instincts and the
:21:59. > :22:04.more business fiscal conservatism of Ed Balls. What side are you on? I am
:22:05. > :22:09.for radical change, I am for energy and I believe strongly we must be
:22:10. > :22:15.formed the market and people might portray that as anti-business but
:22:16. > :22:18.this is about more competition and transparency and others coming into
:22:19. > :22:25.this market so our policy on this is radical, not excepting the status
:22:26. > :22:33.quo. It is also for business. Opinion polls show that few people
:22:34. > :22:39.regard Ed Miliband as by Minister material -- Prime Minister material.
:22:40. > :22:47.That has been true since he became leader. And in some cases, they have
:22:48. > :22:51.been getting worse. Why is that Opinion polls say certain things
:22:52. > :22:55.about the personalities of leaders, David Cameron is not great either.
:22:56. > :23:02.And they were not great when he was in opposition. At this stage, he was
:23:03. > :23:12.getting 49% as Prime Minister real material and Ed Miliband, 19. -
:23:13. > :23:16.Prime Minister material. When you look at certain questions that the
:23:17. > :23:20.public is asked about who you think you would trust about being fair in
:23:21. > :23:23.terms of policy towards Britain who understands the cost of living
:23:24. > :23:30.crisis, they very much identify with Ed Miliband. We are ahead in the
:23:31. > :23:37.polls. Ed Miliband has made that happen. We have one more
:23:38. > :23:41.councillors, we have been running in by-elections and we have held this
:23:42. > :23:46.government over the barrel over six months on energy prices. That is to
:23:47. > :23:48.do with his leadership. The more that voters save him,
:23:49. > :23:55.do with his leadership. The more seem convinced. In 2011, he had been
:23:56. > :24:04.leader for one year, and only 1 % regarded him as weird, by 2014, that
:24:05. > :24:10.was 41%. Look at that! Look at that weirdness! What people need is to
:24:11. > :24:14.know where the Labour Party stands on fundamental issues. And in those
:24:15. > :24:18.areas, particularly the cost of living and fairness and people being
:24:19. > :24:23.concerned that we are entering into a period where people will be worse
:24:24. > :24:27.for the first time ever at the end of the Parliament, these things are
:24:28. > :24:36.important and Ed Miliband is part of our success. Definitely. I think
:24:37. > :24:38.this is ridiculous, to be fair, he is not a politician that says, I am
:24:39. > :24:42.dying with is not a politician that says, I am
:24:43. > :24:51.know who is the number one. He did not play that game. -- down. He is
:24:52. > :24:54.not either there to portray himself as someone who was with the
:24:55. > :25:01.children, I know everything about popular culture. His authenticity is
:25:02. > :25:05.the most important thing. People do not think he is authentic, unless
:25:06. > :25:10.they think we were at is authentic. Is it true that his staff applaud
:25:11. > :25:19.him when he comes back after giving even a mediocre speech? I have never
:25:20. > :25:24.heard that. I have never heard about him being applauded. And I am
:25:25. > :25:29.pleased to applaud him with he makes speeches, I have given him a
:25:30. > :25:30.standing ovation. You have to do that because the cameras are
:25:31. > :25:37.rolling! No, he made a good speech. that because the cameras are
:25:38. > :25:41.Five minutes without notes. It took a long time to memorise I don't
:25:42. > :25:46.blame him! The cost of living. Focusing on that, it has paid
:25:47. > :25:50.dividends. But inflation is falling and perhaps collapsing, unemployment
:25:51. > :25:58.is falling faster than anybody thought, as we can see. Wages are
:25:59. > :26:02.rising, soon faster than prices Retail sales are booming, people
:26:03. > :26:07.have got money in their pockets Isn't the cost of living crisis
:26:08. > :26:14.narrative running out of steam? I do not think so and I should say that I
:26:15. > :26:18.welcome any sign of positive changes in the economy, if anybody gets a
:26:19. > :26:24.job in Doncaster, I am pleased by the end of this Parliament families
:26:25. > :26:31.will be over ?900 worse off because of tax and benefit changes and the
:26:32. > :26:34.working person is ?1600 worse off and it is the first government since
:26:35. > :26:38.the 1870s where people will be at the end of the Parliament. We
:26:39. > :26:42.believe the government made wrong choices that lead the rich off at
:26:43. > :26:50.the expense of those on middle and lower incomes. -- let the rich. The
:26:51. > :26:55.average family ?794 worse off from tax and benefit changes. That has
:26:56. > :27:00.been backed up. They are those figures. But he has skewed these
:27:01. > :27:06.figures by including the richest, where the fall in tax and the
:27:07. > :27:11.penalty they pay is highest. If you take away the richest, it is nowhere
:27:12. > :27:15.near that figure. Everybody agrees and even the government and
:27:16. > :27:21.knowledges that at the end of their tenure in Parliament, people will be
:27:22. > :27:25.worse off. 350,000 extra people who would desperately like full-time
:27:26. > :27:29.work who are working part-time and 1 million young people unemployed and
:27:30. > :27:35.the reason the cost of living has a residence is people feel that. I was
:27:36. > :27:39.in a supermarket and at Doncaster and someone summed this up, he said
:27:40. > :27:43.I work hard and at the end of the week, beyond paying bills, I have
:27:44. > :27:52.got nothing else. If you take away the top 10% who are losing over
:27:53. > :27:59.?600,000, the average loss comes down to around ?400, less than half
:28:00. > :28:05.of what you claim. That figure is totally misleading. These are the
:28:06. > :28:11.figures from the IFS. It still shows... Whatever way you shape
:28:12. > :28:14.this, people will still be worse off, families worse off because of
:28:15. > :28:20.these changes to tax and benefits and working people because wages
:28:21. > :28:26.have not kept up with prices. Your energy portfolio, you back the
:28:27. > :28:30.enquiry into the big six companies and you intend to go ahead with the
:28:31. > :28:35.price freeze and reconfigure the market even before it reports. If
:28:36. > :28:39.you win, this is a waste of time? Whilst we have had this process
:28:40. > :28:44.before the announcement, we always feel if it goes that way, there
:28:45. > :28:47.might be areas we have not thought of that the enquiry will also draw
:28:48. > :28:51.attention to that we might want to add on. You are right, our basic
:28:52. > :28:57.reforms for the new regulator, to separate generation supply, we will
:28:58. > :29:01.pursue that. What happens if this report concludes that your plans are
:29:02. > :29:06.not correct? You will still go ahead? I don't think so. Actually,
:29:07. > :29:10.if you look at the report that Ofgem produced, some of the issues Labour
:29:11. > :29:15.has been drawing attention to like vertical integration, they cover
:29:16. > :29:21.that. I was asking about the Competition Commission? The report
:29:22. > :29:28.last week is a result of working together and I think it is clearly
:29:29. > :29:32.accepted in this sector, look at SSE last week, they will separate the
:29:33. > :29:53.business. We are pushing at the open door. It has already pulled out of
:29:54. > :29:56.gas. So it follows if you freeze energy prices across the market, it
:29:57. > :29:58.gas. So it follows if you freeze might be the right thing to do but
:29:59. > :30:03.there will be a cost in terms of jobs and investment, correct? Well,
:30:04. > :30:06.I met with SSE last weekand the chief executive and talked about
:30:07. > :30:10.these issues. The jobs changes are partly about them looking at how
:30:11. > :30:14.they could be more efficient as a company. On offshore wind that
:30:15. > :30:17.wasn't really to do with the price freeze. That was more to do with
:30:18. > :30:21.issues around confidence in that area and therefore willing to put
:30:22. > :30:27.the money into it, as well as technical issues as well But
:30:28. > :30:32.there'll be job losses. Is that a price worth paying? We believe the
:30:33. > :30:35.reason we are having a price freeze is these companies have been
:30:36. > :30:38.overcharging customers and haven't been investing in their
:30:39. > :30:43.organisations and making them more efficient. I do not believe a price
:30:44. > :30:47.freeze is linked to job losses. These companies do need to be more
:30:48. > :30:51.efficient. Goal for all of us is realising the fantastic opportunity
:30:52. > :30:55.for more jobs and growth from an energy sector that has certainty
:30:56. > :30:57.going forward. That's what Labour will deliver. Caroline Flint, thank
:30:58. > :31:00.you. It's 1130 and you're watching The
:31:01. > :31:03.Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us
:31:04. > :31:11.now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here
:31:12. > :31:17.Hello, you are watching the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire and
:31:18. > :31:21.Lincolnshire. Coming up tod`y: is it time to limit the number of betting
:31:22. > :31:23.shops on our high streets alid fears over the number of people hooked on
:31:24. > :31:27.gambling? And exit stage right ` why the man
:31:28. > :31:30.elected as a BNP Euro MP for Yorkshire and the Humber is stepping
:31:31. > :31:33.down. We'll be discussing fhxed odds terminals, Andrew Brons and much
:31:34. > :31:36.more with our guests today, who are Philip Davies, a Conservative MP for
:31:37. > :31:51.Shipley, and Angela Smith, Labour MP for Penistone and Stocksbridge.
:31:52. > :31:53.Many of us will have enjoyed a flutter on yesterday's Grand
:31:54. > :31:56.National, on what has been the biggest betting weekend of the year.
:31:57. > :32:02.But are some people gambling more than they can afford to losd at
:32:03. > :32:04.their local bookies? That's the claim from some campaigners who
:32:05. > :32:12.believe that new technology is tempting more punters into ` world
:32:13. > :32:16.of addiction. Liz Roberts rdports. Betting shops are a familiar sight
:32:17. > :32:23.on any high street, but it's what's inside that is getting politicians
:32:24. > :32:26.worried. Dubbed the crack cocaine of the betting world, these fixed odds
:32:27. > :32:33.betting terminals can take ?100 from you in a matter of seconds. This is
:32:34. > :32:37.just one of several betting shops here in Harehills in Leeds. There
:32:38. > :32:40.are four fixed odds terminals inside, and all of them are
:32:41. > :32:44.occupied. But for those who can t wait to have a go, it's just a short
:32:45. > :32:47.walk away to find another bdtting shop with even more gaming lachines.
:32:48. > :32:52.And they can be highly addictive ` something Graham knows all too well.
:32:53. > :32:56.Because they are fixed odds, you put in an initial sum of money, and you
:32:57. > :33:00.think at some point the odds are going to swing back in your favour,
:33:01. > :33:03.that at some point it's going to pay out, and you are going to bd able to
:33:04. > :33:11.pay the bills with the winnhngs Sometimes that does happen, but most
:33:12. > :33:14.of the time it doesn't happdn. It's estimated that last ye`r ? 20
:33:15. > :33:22.million was lost in this region on these machines. But more th`n a
:33:23. > :33:25.third of that was in areas considered to be among the lost
:33:26. > :33:27.deprived in the country, and one campaign group says this is no
:33:28. > :33:30.coincidence. I have actually learned mord about
:33:31. > :33:33.the industry since I've turned whistle`blower.
:33:34. > :33:40.Here in Darnall in Sheffield there are four of betting shops whthin
:33:41. > :33:43.just a few hundred yards. Bookmakers are piling into `reas
:33:44. > :33:45.exactly like this ` more deprived areas, areas where people are
:33:46. > :33:49.unemployed who see these machines as a quick way of making money. The
:33:50. > :33:52.reality is they are not. If you look at the bookmakers, over 50% of their
:33:53. > :33:56.revenue comes from these machines, so they are no longer betting shops.
:33:57. > :33:58.They are no longer horse race and sports betting shops. They `re
:33:59. > :34:04.gaming machine shops driven by fixed odds betting terminals.
:34:05. > :34:06.It's a problem that is not lost on the local community, who calpaigned
:34:07. > :34:10.hard to prevent more betting shops appearing on their high strdet.
:34:11. > :34:13.It's putting temptation in the faces of the people around here who are
:34:14. > :34:16.living on low incomes and struggling. Very often we sde large
:34:17. > :34:22.numbers of people just stood outside, in and out of the
:34:23. > :34:26.bookmakers all day. It's had a really adverse effect on thd area.
:34:27. > :34:28.It's this cluster of betting shops that Sheffield City Council wants to
:34:29. > :34:37.stop. We are calling the government to
:34:38. > :34:40.allow councils to have a much greater control over where betting
:34:41. > :34:43.shops can locate in our towns and cities. At the moment, national
:34:44. > :34:45.planning laws mean we can't do that ` it's set by national government.
:34:46. > :34:49.The government have actuallx relaxed the planning laws that allow betting
:34:50. > :34:52.shops to open, and we just think local councils should be allowed to
:34:53. > :34:55.make those kinds of decisions for the benefit of the whole colmunity.
:34:56. > :34:58.63 councils have now joined the campaign to get greater powdrs, and
:34:59. > :35:01.with the next general electhon just over a year away, it's likely that
:35:02. > :35:06.politicians from all parties will be joining the debate.
:35:07. > :35:10.Philip Davies, how worried `re you about the rise in problem g`mbling?
:35:11. > :35:15.Well, there isn't a rising problem gambling.
:35:16. > :35:18.Really? The latest health survey, which came
:35:19. > :35:21.out just before Christmas, showed that problem gambling rates were at
:35:22. > :35:25.0.5%, which is the previous gambling prevalence survey from betwden .6
:35:26. > :35:28.to 0.9%. There are a lot of myths about this particular debatd, with
:35:29. > :35:33.all sorts of reasons, but actually the facts are that problem gambling
:35:34. > :35:36.is on the way down. Every form of gambling bar two ` the richdst
:35:37. > :35:38.people participate in more than the poorest people, including fhxed odds
:35:39. > :35:42.betting terminals. More richer people play than poorer people. The
:35:43. > :35:45.only two forms of gambling `re played by more poor people than rich
:35:46. > :35:48.people are bingo and scratchcards. There are quite a few myths in this
:35:49. > :35:53.particular debate. Angela Smith, do you take Philip
:35:54. > :35:56.Davies's point? We don't have a problem with
:35:57. > :35:59.gambling in this part of thd world? We've got the biggest event in the
:36:00. > :36:03.annual calendar this weekend, so the majority of bets this weekend will
:36:04. > :36:06.be on the Grand National. Ldt's be frank about it ` most peopld in this
:36:07. > :36:08.country still only gamble on occasions like that. It's the
:36:09. > :36:14.occasional flutter, it's thd national lottery. I take Phhlip s
:36:15. > :36:17.point on that. But I still think that there is a problem in relation
:36:18. > :36:20.to a minority who are drawn towards these fixed odds terminals, and it
:36:21. > :36:23.is the very rapid nature with which they gobble up your money. The
:36:24. > :36:27.pop`up system, which flags ` warning after you have spent so much in the
:36:28. > :36:39.machines, is operated according to a voluntary code, at the moment. I'd
:36:40. > :36:43.like to see that made compulsory. I'd also like to see more planning
:36:44. > :36:46.powers. I do agree with Sheffield on this. We do need more plannhng
:36:47. > :36:49.powers to stop the prolifer`tion in the high street.
:36:50. > :36:52.Let me bring in Peter Craskd from the Association of British
:36:53. > :36:54.Bookmakers, who is in our London studio. Thank you very much for
:36:55. > :36:56.joining us. You'll be aware of the medi`
:36:57. > :36:59.headlines surrounding fixed odds betting terminals, that thex are the
:37:00. > :37:04.so`called crack cocaine of gambling. What is your response to th`t?
:37:05. > :37:08.They're not a new product. They have been in betting shops for
:37:09. > :37:11.over 12 years. They've cert`inly grown in popularity with our
:37:12. > :37:16.customers, but shops aren't opening because of those. Of course there is
:37:17. > :37:19.going to be more betting shops somewhere like Leeds, where there is
:37:20. > :37:22.a population of 750,000 people. Sheffield has a population of
:37:23. > :37:31.500,000 people, and 84% of `ll betting shops are located in those
:37:32. > :37:34.commercial city centres. But this is an industry that targets
:37:35. > :37:38.the poorest people in society. You drive through poor areas of our
:37:39. > :37:42.region, and you will see far more betting shops than you will in the
:37:43. > :37:46.wealthier areas. You will see more betting shops in
:37:47. > :37:49.areas of high population, lhke Leeds or Sheffield, because 84% of all
:37:50. > :37:51.betting shops are located in those centres. In Leeds, even with a
:37:52. > :37:59.population of 750,000, betthng shops account for only 3.5% of thd entire
:38:00. > :38:02.retail occupancy. That doesn't stack up, becatse I
:38:03. > :38:04.represent part of Sheffield, and I haven't got the proliferation of
:38:05. > :38:11.betting shops in my constittency that Clive Betts have got in places
:38:12. > :38:14.like Darnall. The differencd between my constituency and Clive's is that
:38:15. > :38:19.Clive's constituency is a lot more deprived than mine. That just
:38:20. > :38:25.doesn't stack up as an argulent But the industry has never targeted
:38:26. > :38:33.deprived areas. I don't think that's the pohnt.
:38:34. > :38:36.We are the same as any other type of retailer ` we open shops whdre there
:38:37. > :38:39.are the most customers. That's no difference to a coffee shop or a
:38:40. > :38:42.newsagent. We want our customers to get safely and responsibly, and
:38:43. > :38:45.yesterday with the Grand National we have a lot more stuff into help
:38:46. > :38:49.people understand ` people who only come in once a year to bet, but
:38:50. > :38:52.gaming machines are popular with our customers.
:38:53. > :38:57.Overall, the level of probldm gambling is very small, but it's
:38:58. > :39:00.still too much. So if you want people to galble
:39:01. > :39:04.safely and responsibly, will you then do what we are asking xou to do
:39:05. > :39:06.which is slow down the speed with which these machines take pdople's
:39:07. > :39:09.money? It's not a matter for the industry `
:39:10. > :39:13.it's regulated by the gamblhng commission and the government.
:39:14. > :39:17.You could do it voluntarily. That's what we are currently asking you to
:39:18. > :39:20.do. We have just introduced a ndw code
:39:21. > :39:24.for responsible gambling th`t sets out a whole range of measurds on all
:39:25. > :39:28.sorts of activities in betthng shops. One is that to play on a
:39:29. > :39:31.gaming machine you can now, for the first time anywhere in the world,
:39:32. > :39:34.and this code has been described as world leading because it is, you can
:39:35. > :39:45.set your own limit on the alount of time you play for, or the alount of
:39:46. > :40:01.money you spend. Thank you for your time tod`y.
:40:02. > :40:09.You can do that on the Internet 24 hours a day. It is better to have
:40:10. > :40:14.people in a controlled environment, rather than on their own on the
:40:15. > :40:18.Internet. When Angela talks about the private areas, there ard five
:40:19. > :40:23.times more pubs in deprived areas than betting shops. I don't hear the
:40:24. > :40:26.Labour Party complaining about pubs going after deprived communhties.
:40:27. > :40:35.This is all about people behng and typesetting.
:40:36. > :40:38.`` anti`betting. A controversial in Yorkshird`based
:40:39. > :40:41.MEP who was elected as a melber of the British National Party has
:40:42. > :40:45.announced that he is stepping down at the European elections ndxt
:40:46. > :40:48.month. Five years ago, Andrdw Brons became the first BNP politician to
:40:49. > :40:54.represent the Yorkshire and Humber region. He later left the p`rty
:40:55. > :40:57.after falling out with its leader Nick Griffin. Critics have `ccused
:40:58. > :41:05.Andrew Brons of promoting the politics of hate.
:41:06. > :41:07.For the past five years, people in Yorkshire and Northern Lincolnshire
:41:08. > :41:14.have been represented in Europe by this man. Andrew Brons was one of
:41:15. > :41:20.two BNP Euro MPs elected in 200 ` a result that rocked the political
:41:21. > :41:23.establishment. They were disillusioned with the
:41:24. > :41:26.Labour Party, with four million migrants coming in during L`bour's
:41:27. > :41:29.time, over 90% in England, hn places like Yorkshire. But also with the
:41:30. > :41:31.political class as a whole, who speaks for white, manual
:41:32. > :41:38.working`class parts of the population? In all of the p`rties,
:41:39. > :41:40.the mainstream parties negldcted that, so the BNP were the
:41:41. > :41:47.beneficiaries of those disillusioned voters.
:41:48. > :41:50.In the European elections fhve years ago, the British National P`rty
:41:51. > :41:57.secured the support of almost one in ten voters in Yorkshire and the
:41:58. > :41:59.Humber. But that support wasn't to last and the party soon bec`me
:42:00. > :42:07.divided over an internal power struggle.
:42:08. > :42:10.Britain must get out of the common market, and rebuild a close
:42:11. > :42:13.relationship with our kinfolk in the white dominions.
:42:14. > :42:16.Andrew Brons was a former sdnior member of the far right Nathonal
:42:17. > :42:19.Front, later joining the Brhtish National Party. In 2012, Mr Brons
:42:20. > :42:27.left the BNP following a dispute with its leader Nick Griffin. He
:42:28. > :42:30.formed a new political group called the British Democratic Partx, but
:42:31. > :42:36.have given few interviews about his record as an MEP.
:42:37. > :42:41.If you look at the attendance figures, my attendance is one of the
:42:42. > :42:44.highest. If you look at the number of speeches I've made, I thhnk I'm
:42:45. > :42:46.about 11th out of the 73 UK MEPs, within the top 10`12% of thd whole
:42:47. > :42:50.parliament. Andrew Brons claims to have given
:42:51. > :42:53.part of his ?80,000 a year salary to a fund set up to help good causes,
:42:54. > :43:09.although he declined to go hnto detail about which groups h`ve
:43:10. > :43:12.received money. I'm afraid anybody who recehves
:43:13. > :43:19.money from us will then be demonised. I'm afraid that's the way
:43:20. > :43:23.politics is in this country. The odd ?500 here, ?500 there ` there's a
:43:24. > :43:26.gym in Hull that's received one lot of ?500, and is due to recehve
:43:27. > :43:35.another lot. A brass band in West Yorkshire, I can't remember which
:43:36. > :43:38.one it was now. Certainly, hf you ask me that specifically, I will go
:43:39. > :43:44.back and give you the chaptdr in verse, but I don't carry th`t around
:43:45. > :43:48.in my head. Andrew Brons ' critics say they
:43:49. > :43:52.won't be sorry to see him step down as an MEP.
:43:53. > :43:55.He worked as a lecturer, so he was more articulate than Griffin, and
:43:56. > :44:02.able to present himself as `n elder statesman. But it's a thin veneer,
:44:03. > :44:06.and you really need to see who he surrounds himself with, and his
:44:07. > :44:09.politics. It's the politics of hate, and the politics of division.
:44:10. > :44:13.Really, I think that the message is especially difficult in these times
:44:14. > :44:18.` it's a time for people to come together, not for people to divide.
:44:19. > :44:22.together, not for people I said right from the beginning that
:44:23. > :44:26.I was going to serve for five years, do my best during that five years,
:44:27. > :44:31.and at the end of it retire. But I'll still play an active p`rt in
:44:32. > :44:34.politics. What I expect to happen is after May 22nd when, in my view the
:44:35. > :44:37.meltdown of the nationalist vote will take place, following that I
:44:38. > :44:38.will invite Nationalists to sit around the same table, and they
:44:39. > :44:45.where do we go from here? And with that we'll go back to
:44:46. > :51:20.Andrew Neill in London. to Andrew. Welcome back and time now
:51:21. > :51:28.to get more from our panel. So they can justify their meagre patents.
:51:29. > :51:32.This cost of living mantra will last all the way until the election.
:51:33. > :51:36.Cannot? Ed Miliband leaves he is onto something and for most of this
:51:37. > :51:41.Parliament, inflation has outstripped wages. That is going to
:51:42. > :51:47.go the other way and wages will rise, to which you say Ed Miliband
:51:48. > :51:51.has nothing to say. He says if you think people are going to feel
:51:52. > :51:54.better in the blink of an eye, you are a Conservative and do not
:51:55. > :51:58.understand the depth of this and he is taking the message from a
:51:59. > :52:04.presidential election in America in 2012 and make Romney was ahead on
:52:05. > :52:09.some of the economic indicators but Barack Obama was ahead on the key
:52:10. > :52:13.one, do you believe this candidate will make your family's life
:52:14. > :52:19.better? The message that Ed Miliband will try to say is the next election
:52:20. > :52:22.is about whose side are you on? And he believes Labour will be on the
:52:23. > :52:26.side of more voters than conservatives. It would be crazy for
:52:27. > :52:32.Labour not to talk about the cost of living because even if wages exceed
:52:33. > :52:36.inflation next year, it is not as if voters will walk around feeling like
:52:37. > :52:38.inflation next year, it is not as if Imelda Marcos, they will still feel
:52:39. > :52:44.as if they were struggling and not just compared... Retail sales are
:52:45. > :52:50.slowing? That is not the sign of palpable disparity. Circumstances
:52:51. > :52:56.are better than three years ago but not better than five years ago. The
:52:57. > :53:03.Reagan question will still be employed, are you better off than at
:53:04. > :53:06.the last election? But things in America were actually getting worse
:53:07. > :53:13.when he asked that. I covered that election, that is why it resonated
:53:14. > :53:19.and they did get worse. The Ayatollah had quadrupled the price
:53:20. > :53:22.of oil. This is based on things getting relatively better, after a
:53:23. > :53:28.very long wait, so the cost of living critique will have to adapt?
:53:29. > :53:34.It will but it gets out of a very sticky spot and the IFS says wages
:53:35. > :53:38.will not outstrip inflation and by that time they can start talking
:53:39. > :53:42.about other things, plans for the railways and tuition fees and at the
:53:43. > :53:45.moment, everything is up for grabs. Labour know that every time they
:53:46. > :53:51.talk about something they want to do, the question is, how do you pay
:53:52. > :53:54.for it? They can talk about the economy and they don't have
:53:55. > :53:59.substantial things to say. Is it true that Mr Iain Duncan Smith was
:54:00. > :54:04.going to make a major announcement on benefit cheats? Or something to
:54:05. > :54:09.do with that this morning? But he decided against it because of the
:54:10. > :54:13.tobacco over Maria Miller? It would be very odd to go on to The Andrew
:54:14. > :54:17.Marr Show to have a chat and see what he is having for lunch. Patrick
:54:18. > :54:21.went from the Guardian said he was going to set out higher financial
:54:22. > :54:23.went from the Guardian said he was penalty phase for providing
:54:24. > :54:29.inaccurate information in claims. This is a bad day to do that, given
:54:30. > :54:35.that MP expenses are treated far more lenient the than any one from
:54:36. > :54:40.Joe public. That would be fascinating, if true. And he is
:54:41. > :54:46.making a very big speech on well for tomorrow and this tweet from Patrick
:54:47. > :54:49.went at the Guardian, he has proper sized on welfare matters and he
:54:50. > :54:55.tends to know what is going on. But it would be deeply unfortunate if
:54:56. > :54:58.that was the message today. How can he make a speech that has anything
:54:59. > :55:04.about cracking down on benefit claimants? Not today but I am not
:55:05. > :55:10.sure tomorrow. Do you get the impression that nobody in both main
:55:11. > :55:15.parties is very confident of winning in 2015? I column last week said the
:55:16. > :55:19.result, the most likely result from one year on is another hung
:55:20. > :55:24.parliament and which government results from that depends on the
:55:25. > :55:28.mathematical specifics of whether the Tories can do a deal as well as
:55:29. > :55:32.Labour, leaving everything in the hands of Nick Clegg or whether one
:55:33. > :55:36.party can do a straightforward deal but I do not detect any sense of
:55:37. > :55:42.exuberance or confidence in either camp. And the Tories are still
:55:43. > :55:46.shooting themselves over losing the boundary commission reforms because
:55:47. > :55:50.that was going to net them 20 seats and they lost that because they
:55:51. > :55:53.messed up the House of Lords reform and there are still furious with
:55:54. > :55:57.themselves. The former US President, George W Bush, has been a busy boy
:55:58. > :56:01.and here at the Sunday Politics we thought you'd like to see the
:56:02. > :56:45.# JOHN WILLIAMS: CAVATINA #. Time for the gallery.
:56:46. > :56:53.I was a prize to find myself saying, some of these are not bad! --
:56:54. > :57:00.surprised. Vladimir Putin? I like the one of Tony Blair but his early
:57:01. > :57:05.ones of dogs, to be in the presence of the master is to see his portrait
:57:06. > :57:10.of a Joanne Love. He is not of the Turner prize but I was surprised. He
:57:11. > :57:16.gets the mask of Vladimir Putin also Tony Blair. I was impressed
:57:17. > :57:21.that he did not allow personal or political grudges to influence his
:57:22. > :57:25.artwork. Jacques Chirac, he comes out of this incredibly well! And
:57:26. > :57:32.Angela Merkel comes out astonishingly well. Quite generous
:57:33. > :57:36.as well. Tony Blair is the best one and the reason is he had the closest
:57:37. > :57:40.relationship with them and he has talked about this portrait, saying
:57:41. > :57:46.he was quite fond of him and you can see that. These are awful, they
:57:47. > :57:52.would not get you an A-level but you must admire him to have the guts to
:57:53. > :57:58.do this, and display them publicly! An A-level? Just doing joined up
:57:59. > :58:03.numbers gets you that these days! What do you do when you retire? This
:58:04. > :58:07.is less embarrassing than some of the other things people have done.
:58:08. > :58:16.As good as Churchill? I don't know... No! Churchill was brilliant!
:58:17. > :58:19.And on that! That's all for today. Tune into BBC Two every day at
:58:20. > :58:22.lunchtime this week for the Daily Politics. And we'll be back at the
:58:23. > :58:25.later time of 2:30pm next Sunday after the London Marathon. Remember,
:58:26. > :58:32.if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.