:00:33. > :00:37.Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for
:00:38. > :00:43.their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'
:00:44. > :00:46.time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the
:00:47. > :00:48.issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the
:00:49. > :00:58.Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever
:00:59. > :00:59.we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political
:01:00. > :01:14.And here: We report on the backlash commentators.
:01:15. > :01:16.And here: We report on the backlash in South Yorkshire following this TV
:01:17. > :01:23.programme impartial about informing people of
:01:24. > :01:27.local services. So all that to come between now and
:01:28. > :01:30.quarter to four and for the next thirty minutes or so we'll be
:01:31. > :01:33.debating the European elections. Here in the studio we have Syed
:01:34. > :01:34.Kamall, leader of the Conservatives in the
:01:35. > :01:37.Kamall, leader of the Conservatives Howitt, chair of the Labour group of
:01:38. > :01:40.MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader of the Lib Dems in Europe, and
:01:41. > :01:51.Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of communications. Welcome to you all.
:01:52. > :01:53.In a moment, all four will give us their opening pitch for the
:01:54. > :02:03.elections. A little earlier they drew lots to decide who'll go first.
:02:04. > :02:06.And that privilege goes to Syed. Before that, though, here's a quick
:02:07. > :02:11.reminder of what all the fuss is about.
:02:12. > :02:16.The vote to choose members of the European Parliament takes place on
:02:17. > :02:21.Thursday the 22nd of May. The same day as local elections are held in
:02:22. > :02:21.England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends 73
:02:22. > :02:25.England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends NTP is to Brussels. And the
:02:26. > :02:29.vote is a form of proportional sends NTP is to Brussels. And the
:02:30. > :02:36.representation. In total, there are 751 MEPs from the 28 member states.
:02:37. > :02:40.What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has
:02:41. > :02:44.grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or
:02:45. > :02:50.reject nearly all EU legislation and the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have
:02:51. > :02:57.been responsible for include price caps on mobile phone chargers,
:02:58. > :03:03.banking regulation and cover food regulation two -- labelling.
:03:04. > :03:08.Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe
:03:09. > :03:12.needs to change. And our relationship with Europe needs to
:03:13. > :03:15.change. Only the Conservatives have a plan to deliver that change and of
:03:16. > :03:18.the British people and in-out the British people and in-out
:03:19. > :03:22.referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems will not and UKIP simply cannot.
:03:23. > :03:27.Only the Conservatives will offer the three yards, with Conservative
:03:28. > :03:31.MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For,
:03:32. > :03:39.really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next.
:03:40. > :03:43.Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe,
:03:44. > :03:46.vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian,
:03:47. > :03:50.fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing
:03:51. > :03:54.patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian
:03:55. > :03:58.roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting
:03:59. > :04:05.with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal
:04:06. > :04:09.Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah
:04:10. > :04:14.Ludford. Next, Richard Europe for jobs and security. Sarah
:04:15. > :04:19.Labour. The European elections are about who represents you. They are
:04:20. > :04:23.not a referendum on a referendum. Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs
:04:24. > :04:26.and growth first. A guarantee to help young people into work,
:04:27. > :04:31.reforming energy markets so that bills are brought down for good.
:04:32. > :04:36.Labour believes in reform in Europe, but within. It is David Cameron who
:04:37. > :04:40.is risking your job and Britain's prosperity because of divisions in
:04:41. > :04:45.his own party. Labour MEPs put British interests first. Our fourth
:04:46. > :04:53.opening statement from Patrick O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a
:04:54. > :04:55.declining regional trade bloc in an era of global trade. It is a
:04:56. > :05:01.20th-century political project designed to prevent conflict in
:05:02. > :05:05.Europe that is now reawakening old hostilities. It is an attempt
:05:06. > :05:13.force on the European people European this as their primary
:05:14. > :05:16.collective identity. It has hollowed out British democracy and now we do
:05:17. > :05:22.not even control our own borders. That is why you should vote UKIP.
:05:23. > :05:25.That is the opening statements. Let's get on with the debate. Why
:05:26. > :05:32.should people vote in the selections? If you vote UKIP, we can
:05:33. > :05:35.deliver an earthquake that will rock the foundations of British politics
:05:36. > :05:40.and the European political class. We can send a signal to Europe that
:05:41. > :05:46.Britain has had enough, that Britain wants to retain its nation state
:05:47. > :05:50.status and regain political power and the ability to forge trading
:05:51. > :05:56.deals across the world. Britain leading Europe to freedom twice in
:05:57. > :05:59.the last century through bloodshed. We feel that a UKIP win in those
:06:00. > :06:07.elections could help Britain set an example to lead European nation
:06:08. > :06:11.states back to free assembly again. Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that
:06:12. > :06:16.many Tory voters will vote you clip to keep you honest, to keep your
:06:17. > :06:18.feet to the fire? Whatever you think of the European Parliament or the
:06:19. > :06:24.EU, the fact is that the European Parliament as equal power with the
:06:25. > :06:29.28 governments of the EU. When David Cameron delivered the first cut to
:06:30. > :06:32.the EU budget, the first ever cut, he needed a strong team of
:06:33. > :06:40.Conservative MEPs working alongside him. But many of your supporters
:06:41. > :06:41.will vote for UKIP for the reasons I gave. Many will vote Liberal
:06:42. > :06:50.Democrat. Not very many. gave. Many will vote Liberal
:06:51. > :06:52.supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to
:06:53. > :06:58.change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a
:06:59. > :07:02.referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no
:07:03. > :07:07.idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer
:07:08. > :07:13.that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United
:07:14. > :07:17.States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the
:07:18. > :07:22.referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no
:07:23. > :07:25.confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read
:07:26. > :07:28.negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at
:07:29. > :07:36.the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of
:07:37. > :07:38.demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to
:07:39. > :07:43.leave, is that right? If at the not change, he will probably vote to
:07:44. > :07:47.of the referendum, things had not changed, I would vote to leave and
:07:48. > :07:53.we have a golden opportunity to perform the agenda. Richard, the
:07:54. > :08:01.last time the British people had a say on this was over 40 years ago.
:08:02. > :08:07.Under a Labour government. Which was deeply divided on the issue. And
:08:08. > :08:12.that was a say on the common market. Today's EU is a very different
:08:13. > :08:17.animal from the common market. Why can we not, under another Labour
:08:18. > :08:23.government, have another vote? First of all, we want it to be more than a
:08:24. > :08:28.free trading area. We make no apologies about that. But in the
:08:29. > :08:31.elections because this is half of Britain's exports and investment. If
:08:32. > :08:35.you care about your job and business, you cannot hear from the
:08:36. > :08:39.party of government that they probably want you to leave because
:08:40. > :08:42.the CBI, the engineering employees in Federation and the chimp of
:08:43. > :08:48.commerce, 80% of them say it is necessary to stay in. So why not
:08:49. > :08:52.give us a vote? When David Cameron says he wants to repatriate social
:08:53. > :08:58.powers, he means takeaway maternity rights and holidays. If the case is
:08:59. > :09:05.so strong, why not give us an in-out vote? David Miliband has said that
:09:06. > :09:10.there will be a referendum if there was a proposal to change powers. Why
:09:11. > :09:14.wait? This is based on a series of reforms. Labour has a set of
:09:15. > :09:17.reforms. David Cameron is silent about what they would be. That is
:09:18. > :09:21.because he knows that if he put them forward, they would either be
:09:22. > :09:22.unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic backbenchers and he would be out of
:09:23. > :09:30.a job, or they would be backbenchers and he would be out of
:09:31. > :09:34.to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed
:09:35. > :09:41.Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying.
:09:42. > :09:44.He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be
:09:45. > :09:53.a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will
:09:54. > :09:58.have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg
:09:59. > :10:02.gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the
:10:03. > :10:06.Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can
:10:07. > :10:13.say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford,
:10:14. > :10:17.you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that
:10:18. > :10:21.is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this
:10:22. > :10:25.morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster
:10:26. > :10:29.for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick
:10:30. > :10:36.Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that
:10:37. > :10:40.is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is
:10:41. > :10:45.essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the
:10:46. > :10:48.EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative
:10:49. > :10:53.voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all
:10:54. > :11:02.over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or
:11:03. > :11:07.out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote
:11:08. > :11:10.for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole
:11:11. > :11:14.for us. I am delighted about that. may surprise you. We need to move on
:11:15. > :11:17.to immigration, an important issue. We are a member of the EU and the
:11:18. > :11:23.rules say that with a few caveats, our fellow EU citizens are free to
:11:24. > :11:28.come here if they want. Why can we not just accept that? Britain has a
:11:29. > :11:32.proud record when it comes to immigration. We have been open to
:11:33. > :11:36.people across the world for centuries. But we welcome people who
:11:37. > :11:40.come to our country to contribute to pay taxes and two wards are a
:11:41. > :11:44.society positively. But there are three real concerns that we have to
:11:45. > :11:48.address. The first one is numbers, and secondly people who may come
:11:49. > :11:53.here not to work but for benefits, and thirdly, getting a hang of the
:11:54. > :11:57.numbers. I think it is shameful that only this week the office for
:11:58. > :11:58.National said that they did not collect sufficient figures under a
:11:59. > :12:03.Labour government. 350,000 collect sufficient figures under a
:12:04. > :12:07.people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size
:12:08. > :12:13.of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over
:12:14. > :12:19.the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I
:12:20. > :12:25.accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In
:12:26. > :12:26.the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the
:12:27. > :12:33.EU? In our manifesto, we have said EU? In our manifesto, we have said
:12:34. > :12:36.it is an issue for reform. We have to make sure that people are coming
:12:37. > :12:43.here to work and contribute positively, not simply to come here
:12:44. > :12:47.and take advantage of the system. I will tell you what else is
:12:48. > :12:50.shameful. What is shameful is David Cameron making a pledge to the
:12:51. > :12:54.British people on an issue that they really care about, to bring net
:12:55. > :12:59.immigration down to the tens of thousands a year, having no means of
:13:00. > :13:03.fulfilling that pledge. And we see now it is back up to 212,000 a year
:13:04. > :13:08.because we have no volume control and no quality control from
:13:09. > :13:12.immigration from our neighbours. And that is a disgrace. How could UKIP
:13:13. > :13:17.address that issue? Because we would leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You
:13:18. > :13:21.do not have a single member of Parliament. He will not get a single
:13:22. > :13:30.member of Parliament. How are you... ? TUC are hoping to get an
:13:31. > :13:41.MEP. What do you say? -- he is here today hoping to get an MEP. All of
:13:42. > :13:47.-- almost 2 million Brits live and work in the rest of the EU. Is that
:13:48. > :13:54.worth having? The majority are wealthy, retired people. Why do not
:13:55. > :13:57.object to bilateral agreements with countries with similar living
:13:58. > :14:01.standards to us. France, the Netherlands, that works fine. But
:14:02. > :14:05.these three people want Turkey to join the EU, 75 Na Li and people
:14:06. > :14:18.running our country, only 10% of which... Syed Kamall is Michael year
:14:19. > :14:21.to say whether they are in favour of free movement for work, not for
:14:22. > :14:30.benefits... That is what I'm saying. You said you were unable to
:14:31. > :14:32.be clear. That leaves 2 million British people absolutely unsure as
:14:33. > :14:36.to whether they would have a right to continue to live in other
:14:37. > :14:40.countries. It is a two-way street. You are putting those people in a
:14:41. > :14:43.state of uncertainty. EU migrants have been good for the British
:14:44. > :14:46.economy and contribute far more than they take out in services and
:14:47. > :14:54.benefits. One in seven businesses were founded in -- by migrants. And
:14:55. > :15:00.they cannot just turn up and claim benefits. The coalition government
:15:01. > :15:05.has legislated to make sure that they cannot claim for three months.
:15:06. > :15:13.They will not be able to claim for more than six months. Richard
:15:14. > :15:20.Howitt, Jack Straw said it was "A spectacular mistake for Labour to
:15:21. > :15:25.allow EU migrants from Poland and Hungary to work in the UK from
:15:26. > :15:29.2004." Why should we trust a party that makes spectacular mistakes and
:15:30. > :15:34.hasn't apologised for it? We accept it is a mistake and I apologise. We
:15:35. > :15:38.make a firm commitment for new EU states we will put down transitional
:15:39. > :15:41.controls. When I listen to the Conservatives and UKIP trying to
:15:42. > :15:45.re-write history, saying immigration was out of control, uncontrolled,
:15:46. > :15:51.open door, we hear it over and over again. It is not true. Anyone who
:15:52. > :15:57.was around at the time... Come on, Richard. Hold on, you undercounted
:15:58. > :16:02.by 350,000. You were letting 2 million in over the years, an
:16:03. > :16:08.under-counted by 350,000 people you didn't know came in. You should have
:16:09. > :16:14.tightened the benefit rules. The Conservative MEP today has, in four
:16:15. > :16:19.years in government in Britain, is trying it blame the previous Labour
:16:20. > :16:24.Government over the fact they won't count people in or people out.
:16:25. > :16:31.Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for people to come to the country and
:16:32. > :16:36.benefits are changing, changing the habitual residence test and we are
:16:37. > :16:39.going to say that migrants can't come and claim child benefit if
:16:40. > :16:42.their children are outside the country. Labour a has shown they
:16:43. > :16:48.have listened to concerns but we say it is a stronger, better, country
:16:49. > :16:51.because it is diverse and multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy
:16:52. > :16:55.politics from all the Peters. They are committed to a system with no
:16:56. > :16:59.volume control and no quality control. You talk about benefits as
:17:00. > :17:05.if it is only out of work benefits. In work benefits cost a lot of money
:17:06. > :17:13.for the British taxpayer. Big businesses bring in minimum wage
:17:14. > :17:18.workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool place What are you going to do? Have
:17:19. > :17:24.all the pensioners come back to Britain? How will will you fund the
:17:25. > :17:28.health care? Do you really think Spain and pour tu ghal their current
:17:29. > :17:34.situation, are going to turn their backs on British property owners
:17:35. > :17:40.with wealth? -- Portugal. They might not wanting pensioners to use their
:17:41. > :17:45.health service. Pensioners often come back to Britain to use the
:17:46. > :17:48.health service. You have shown it represents wealthy people's
:17:49. > :17:54.interests. A second Conservative Party. Hang on a minute... Blue
:17:55. > :17:57.collar wages were down. They want it character for the National Health
:17:58. > :18:01.Service, have cuts that go farther and comprehensive education. This is
:18:02. > :18:05.a debate on the wider politics between Conservatives and UKIP and
:18:06. > :18:10.Labour will... You can't both talk time. UKIP - they haven't thought it
:18:11. > :18:14.through, thousand they will have trade access in the EU, hasn't
:18:15. > :18:16.thought how they will have trade deals that the Liberal Democrats
:18:17. > :18:21.support, like with the United States: Would you have a cap on
:18:22. > :18:26.non-EU immigrants? We are not in favour of a cap. No cap on either.
:18:27. > :18:31.No. Well it is a target. It is a moving feast, as it were. Would you
:18:32. > :18:34.have a limit on non-EU limits? We have limits on quality. We have
:18:35. > :18:40.people who are skilled migrants coming in. Lip its? . By quality,
:18:41. > :18:47.not by quantity. -- Limits. How do you do that? We need to move
:18:48. > :18:51.on to foreign affairs. Should we pool more sovereignty to
:18:52. > :18:56.give the European Union more clout in foreign and defence matters? I'm
:18:57. > :19:00.Labour's defence and foreign affairs spokesperson. No we don't need to
:19:01. > :19:04.pull more powers into Europe. As we undertake this live debate there are
:19:05. > :19:10.guns being fired in Ukraine as we speak. Europe is facing, for the
:19:11. > :19:14.first time, since the end of the Second World War, Armies crossing
:19:15. > :19:18.national borders and floatening peace. Doesn't it -- threatening
:19:19. > :19:23.peace. Doesn't it need to come together of the We don't need more
:19:24. > :19:30.powers. We need political will. With Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has
:19:31. > :19:34.-- we have fallen short in the sanctions. But it is Europe, not
:19:35. > :19:38.Britain. Remember Putin calling Britain little England a small
:19:39. > :19:42.island with no influence. Labour doesn't agree with that. But if
:19:43. > :19:45.that's the mindset that allows someone like Vladimir Putin to send
:19:46. > :19:50.troops across borders threatening peace, it is worrying. And when we
:19:51. > :19:54.have, in UKIP a party that say they admire Putin and support his
:19:55. > :19:59.policies, that is no recipe for how Europe should be wrong. I was
:20:00. > :20:07.waiting for that. Let me ask him. We don't admire Putin as a leader...
:20:08. > :20:10.Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage said, was he admired him as a
:20:11. > :20:15.political operator. Testifies Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good
:20:16. > :20:21.foreign policy was speaking softly but carrying a big stick. The EU
:20:22. > :20:25.shouts its mouthed off while carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy
:20:26. > :20:29.that you wiebl it stand up to Putin over the Ukraine. -- that you would
:20:30. > :20:33.be able to stand up. Do you admire what Putin is doing in the Ukraine?
:20:34. > :20:38.No. What matters in foreign policy is the outcould. We have a terrible
:20:39. > :20:43.outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria, and Georgia... What would UKIP do?
:20:44. > :20:49.What u skip would do, would be to keep our people safe -- UKIP.
:20:50. > :20:55.How? And not commit our Foreign Office and troops Foreign wars.
:20:56. > :21:00.Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel
:21:01. > :21:04.Farage said in previous debates that Britain should leave the EU because,
:21:05. > :21:10."We have had enough of endless foreign wars." Which wars has the EU
:21:11. > :21:14.taken us into? The EU has ban very important factor in the push towards
:21:15. > :21:23.trying to get military intervention in Syria, for example. What wars has
:21:24. > :21:28.the etch U taken us into it -- EU. Fortunately the EU doesn't have its
:21:29. > :21:32.own army yet. It has wanted to sign up to an expansionist agenda. Did it
:21:33. > :21:37.want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP
:21:38. > :21:43.opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was
:21:44. > :21:50.against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal
:21:51. > :21:55.on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral.
:21:56. > :22:00.We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other
:22:01. > :22:05.people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin
:22:06. > :22:10.is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have
:22:11. > :22:14.to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and
:22:15. > :22:21.in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria,
:22:22. > :22:24.who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is
:22:25. > :22:30.important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said
:22:31. > :22:35.that the idea of an EU Army was, "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not
:22:36. > :22:40.true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and
:22:41. > :22:42.controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European
:22:43. > :22:49.Parliament has said that the majority of MEPs want the EU to have
:22:50. > :22:52."deployable troops." He is not speaking for me or Liberal
:22:53. > :22:57.Democrats. The EU does not and will not have an army. Our defence is
:22:58. > :23:00.mainly shaped through NATO. He is President of the Parliament What we
:23:01. > :23:05.must do is to get equipment which can operate together. We waste an
:23:06. > :23:09.awful lot of our spending in Europe because we duplicate equipment. We
:23:10. > :23:13.don't get the bang for our bucks that we should. It is a useful role
:23:14. > :23:18.for the EU, to get equipment working together. That doesn't make sense.
:23:19. > :23:24.You say military equipment, a NATO job. No, the EU, there is a kind of
:23:25. > :23:30.dimension of the EU members of NATO, in working together on a common
:23:31. > :23:34.quument o o so they can talk to each other -- on common equipment, so
:23:35. > :23:38.they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a
:23:39. > :23:42.European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those
:23:43. > :23:45.jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the
:23:46. > :23:51.Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since
:23:52. > :23:55.the start of the fist world war. Remember that Europe was set up to
:23:56. > :23:59.try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on
:24:00. > :24:02.Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries
:24:03. > :24:07.in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to
:24:08. > :24:12.keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the
:24:13. > :24:16.Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth,
:24:17. > :24:22.retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse
:24:23. > :24:26.retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers
:24:27. > :24:29.-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign
:24:30. > :24:36.Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I
:24:37. > :24:39.quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David
:24:40. > :24:44.Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than
:24:45. > :24:48.Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in
:24:49. > :24:51.the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times
:24:52. > :24:55.when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to
:24:56. > :25:00.cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are
:25:01. > :25:05.not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear
:25:06. > :25:10.that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all.
:25:11. > :25:15.Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through
:25:16. > :25:19.the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from
:25:20. > :25:24.the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and
:25:25. > :25:29.not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of... ?
:25:30. > :25:32.I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is
:25:33. > :25:35.the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we
:25:36. > :25:39.work with our European partners, sometimes we work with our
:25:40. > :25:45.non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work
:25:46. > :25:50.together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country
:25:51. > :25:57.about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't
:25:58. > :26:04.the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts? The
:26:05. > :26:07.trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our
:26:08. > :26:11.expenses is online and anyone can expenses is online and anyone can
:26:12. > :26:17.ask to examine those. We have actually voted to reform MEPs'
:26:18. > :26:20.allowances. We regularly vote but unfortunately the majority in
:26:21. > :26:26.Parliament don't. Have you voted to cut them? Yes. By how much? About
:26:27. > :26:30.5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies I never fly except across the
:26:31. > :26:38.Atlantic. Difficult to do it any other way. I didn't swim.
:26:39. > :26:43.But we voted for economy flutes. We voted for European Parliament policy
:26:44. > :26:48.of transparency which other groups haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote.
:26:49. > :26:53.They don't earn their salaries. Dhoent do anything. They should hand
:26:54. > :26:57.their salaries and allowances back. You can't ause UKIP of being on the
:26:58. > :27:03.gravy train and the other that we don't claim our attendance allowance
:27:04. > :27:06.because our MEPs are not there. Your attendance allowance is if you are
:27:07. > :27:11.there, you are saying we don't turn up You are in the building and claim
:27:12. > :27:14.the allowances. You are not an MEP, UKIP are so ashamed of what their
:27:15. > :27:20.MEPs have done in Brussels, they didn't field a sitting MEP for
:27:21. > :27:24.today's debate. I think each party decides who it wishes to field. I
:27:25. > :27:29.have the honour of being the UKIP representative. I would say by going
:27:30. > :27:36.in the past few weeks, xeeming to me saying - we are sick of the others.
:27:37. > :27:41.-- people saying to me. : We are quite excited. Can I ask Patrick
:27:42. > :27:45.O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord and his party is strong in the
:27:46. > :27:49.O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't
:27:50. > :27:54.you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were
:27:55. > :27:59.jailed for expenses and benefits' fraud. Two more asked to pay back
:28:00. > :28:03.?37,000 for using European funds. Nigel Farage has boosted about
:28:04. > :28:07.getting ?2 million in expenses and he went on to employ his wife as a
:28:08. > :28:12.secretarial allowance after telling other members not to People who do
:28:13. > :28:17.wrong and break the law, go to ja. I have no time. -- go to jail. People
:28:18. > :28:21.who spend money they are not entitled to should pay it back and
:28:22. > :28:26.that's right. But what UKIP does and the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the
:28:27. > :28:29.allowances they are given to pursue the political agenda they put up
:28:30. > :28:33.when elected which is to get Britain out of this superstate. Instead of
:28:34. > :28:39.using it for parliamentary work. Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We
:28:40. > :28:44.were the first British political party to have independent audits of
:28:45. > :28:50.our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way before the expenses crisis blew up.
:28:51. > :28:53.The Maria Miller scandal has of course hit David Cameron and the
:28:54. > :28:58.Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my
:28:59. > :29:01.own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been
:29:02. > :29:05.charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot
:29:06. > :29:11.lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We
:29:12. > :29:14.had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking
:29:15. > :29:21.ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people
:29:22. > :29:25.aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply. We
:29:26. > :29:28.can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so
:29:29. > :29:31.can bring up parochial cases. Let Liberal Democrat councillor was sent
:29:32. > :29:37.down for firebombing, I don't say they are a bunch of arsonists, but
:29:38. > :29:44.now I think, Nick Clegg might have burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad
:29:45. > :29:49.you pronounced that word carefully. Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they
:29:50. > :29:55.are strongly critical of the EU's financials saying "Errors permist in
:29:56. > :30:00.all main spending areas", the financials are poorly managed. It is
:30:01. > :30:06.a shambles And that's something that all parties agree on. As we agree on
:30:07. > :30:10.expenses, the British parties are at the forefront of transpancy. Every
:30:11. > :30:14.year when we vote for the discharge of the budget, the Conservatives
:30:15. > :30:17.also vote for it but we don't get enough MEPs from other countries to
:30:18. > :30:19.investigate in favour. The Liberal Democrats have put forward to make
:30:20. > :30:23.each Finance Democrats have put forward to make
:30:24. > :30:28.Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is
:30:29. > :30:33.properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do
:30:34. > :30:37.that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will
:30:38. > :30:42.sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about
:30:43. > :30:47.?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1. 5
:30:48. > :30:52.billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe.
:30:53. > :30:56.I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to
:30:57. > :30:58.ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our
:30:59. > :31:02.money that went there first. Can I destitute people... Isn't it our
:31:03. > :31:05.tell you the Conservative-led Government have blocked us from
:31:06. > :31:08.claiming that money. If you want to have the clearest choice at these
:31:09. > :31:19.European elections, it is between... Tell us why. It affects our rebate.
:31:20. > :31:26.Tony Blair gave away our rebate. He is quite right. Lib Dems fought to
:31:27. > :31:30.make sure that we apply for money to help with flooding. That is what the
:31:31. > :31:34.Tories were blocking. If you want the clearest example at the European
:31:35. > :31:39.elections, the Conservative Party and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers
:31:40. > :31:45.bonuses, and then blocked a Labour victory to get money for free
:31:46. > :31:51.banks. We need to move on to the future. It is important and people
:31:52. > :31:55.are watching. The EU's Justice Minister says that we need to build
:31:56. > :32:02.a United States of Europe with the commission as its government. Is she
:32:03. > :32:07.right? Not at all. But the future, if we take the next ten years,
:32:08. > :32:10.thinks about climate change and the fact that we are not going to hit of
:32:11. > :32:15.the two degrees target. Europe has led and needs to lead towards
:32:16. > :32:19.getting a new sustainable world. It is the political will to use these
:32:20. > :32:24.powers, so she is wrong. It is about the threats from abroad. Labour
:32:25. > :32:27.reforms like getting a commissioner for growth and rebalancing the
:32:28. > :32:31.budget, reforming the common agricultural policy, all of those
:32:32. > :32:38.things will need to happen to make Europe more democratic and open. But
:32:39. > :32:43.against the rise of Brazil and China... We do not need more
:32:44. > :32:48.treaties and powers. We need more action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah
:32:49. > :32:53.Ludford, you would sign up to that? No. Unless they do not think that
:32:54. > :32:59.should concentrate on institutional matters. What we need to do is
:33:00. > :33:03.concentrate on making Europe progrowth and competitive and create
:33:04. > :33:10.more jobs in a competitive world. We need more trade deals to open up our
:33:11. > :33:15.exports, we need to streamline the EU. We need less red tape and
:33:16. > :33:19.Liberal Democrats have done a lot on that. We need better scrutiny of EU
:33:20. > :33:27.legislation at West Munster because the national parties... More powers
:33:28. > :33:35.or less for the EU government? In some areas, I would like to see it
:33:36. > :33:38.slimmed down. Including, I am not sure whether the EU should be
:33:39. > :33:44.funding food banks. I think that is a national responsibility. Dearie
:33:45. > :33:50.me. The EU have to concentrate on the economy and climate change. This
:33:51. > :33:53.is the coalition talking. If we want to fritter away political capital on
:33:54. > :33:58.things which are interfering in national matters, then we do not
:33:59. > :34:03.have the support to tackle those big challenges. Would you still want to
:34:04. > :34:12.join the Euro one-day? Now is not a good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to
:34:13. > :34:15.still be sound, which is why... Did not ask you that. Do you want to
:34:16. > :34:20.join the Euro one-day? If it is a success and it did the economy. Now
:34:21. > :34:27.is not the time but in principle, the idea of a single currency has
:34:28. > :34:32.advantages. That was a yes. We are not ruling it out for ever but not
:34:33. > :34:37.in the foreseeable future. It is not on the horizon. What would our
:34:38. > :34:41.relationship be with Europe in the future if UKIP got its way and we
:34:42. > :34:45.left? We would be trading partners with Europe and we would seek
:34:46. > :34:50.partnership in specific serious. I'd tell you what, can I just say...
:34:51. > :34:53.Would we be Norway? We would be stronger than Norway because we are
:34:54. > :34:58.the biggest export market in the Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke
:34:59. > :35:03.trading agreement reflecting our enormous importance. Not on
:35:04. > :35:08.services, which make up 80% of the economy. We are the biggest export
:35:09. > :35:13.market in the Eurozone. Our biggest exports are services and they would
:35:14. > :35:18.have to agree to free trade and services. They still have not. Can I
:35:19. > :35:22.read you something? Let me read you something. There would be a free
:35:23. > :35:28.trade agreement in place the day after our exit. Germany would demand
:35:29. > :35:33.no less. Who said that? Not somebody from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr
:35:34. > :35:37.business. He is talking about goods, not services. Norway has that
:35:38. > :35:43.and they have no say. You would have to accept the EU rules without any
:35:44. > :35:47.say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let me give you another. Enough. One is
:35:48. > :35:55.enough. Syed Kamall, is it not looking forward pretty much Mission:
:35:56. > :36:01.Impossible for Mr Cameron to get anything like the repatriations of
:36:02. > :36:09.powers that would satisfy your irreconcilables? My father was a bus
:36:10. > :36:12.driver in the 50s and one of the reasons I am here today is because
:36:13. > :36:14.he told me that you can achieve anything if you work hard. He said
:36:15. > :36:19.to me, do not listen to the doubters. When people tell you that
:36:20. > :36:22.something cannot be done, it is a sign of their limitations, not
:36:23. > :36:25.yours. They said that we could not pull Britain out of the bailout
:36:26. > :36:31.mechanism but we did it. He said we could not be to a -- veto European
:36:32. > :36:37.treaty and we did that. They said we would never cut the budget and we
:36:38. > :36:41.did that. The first ever. But overall, we are paying more into the
:36:42. > :36:46.European budget. And they are not sticking to it. More, not less. They
:36:47. > :36:49.say that we cannot achieve reform but we have achieved reform and we
:36:50. > :36:54.are at the forefront of that. Science's father came to Britain
:36:55. > :37:04.because Britain was open and looking outward. What the Conservatives now
:37:05. > :37:10.have, with leaderless Cameron, is an inward looking attitude. They are
:37:11. > :37:15.allowing the rise of UKIP. They are putting so much at risk. People
:37:16. > :37:19.should vote Labour. We are going to have to stop now. No point talking
:37:20. > :37:22.because we are about to finish. I have to stop now. No point talking
:37:23. > :37:27.think you all for a spirited debate. I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg
:37:28. > :37:30.will have learned a lot about how to debate. -- Nigel Farage.
:37:31. > :37:33.It's just gone 3pm, and you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say
:37:34. > :37:36.goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics
:37:37. > :37:53.Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes, the
:37:54. > :38:06.Coming up today: We report on the backlash coming up because of this
:38:07. > :38:15.TV programme entitled Gypsids On Benefits And Proud plus the energy
:38:16. > :38:20.boss who says people in this part of the world should be less negative
:38:21. > :38:27.about wind turbines. My guests today are Jason McCartney and John Healey.
:38:28. > :38:35.We are the recorded this wedk and by the time this goes out you will have
:38:36. > :38:45.just finished the London Marathon, Jason. You'll macro I am running for
:38:46. > :38:58.the second time for the children's hospice. Good for you. I am one of
:38:59. > :39:04.the few MPs not running. Yot may have finished by the time this goes
:39:05. > :39:12.out but I don't know if it `ll is well have done. Some great stories
:39:13. > :39:18.to come out the marathon as always. The title of the programme was that
:39:19. > :39:23.bind `` designed to be provocative, we suspect. But Channel fivd's
:39:24. > :39:28.programme about gypsies on Friday night has caused a fierce b`cklash
:39:29. > :39:38.in the other, we're part of it was filmed.
:39:39. > :39:52.The programme starts in Rom`nia to find out why one man wants to head
:39:53. > :39:56.to the UK. We then get taken to Rotherham to meet this Roma Slovak
:39:57. > :40:09.family, one of many who havd settled in this district in recent xears.
:40:10. > :40:19.When I visited the area the community were trying to send out a
:40:20. > :40:24.different message. We need ` group of people to go with Shirlex. This
:40:25. > :40:29.letter Peck is about more than simply cleaning the streets. This
:40:30. > :40:33.part of the town has a largd immigrant population and with that
:40:34. > :40:39.can come a reputation which takes hard work to overcome. Work the
:40:40. > :40:44.community says is easily undone The family featured in the programme did
:40:45. > :40:48.not want to speak to others but I have spoken to other members of the
:40:49. > :40:52.Roma community here who havd genuine fears this could sure just one story
:40:53. > :40:58.which could play on people's prejudices and have disastrous
:40:59. > :41:03.effects. Many agree it could put pressure on already strained
:41:04. > :41:07.community relations. Do you think a programme like this could c`use
:41:08. > :41:14.problems in this community? Yes I do. A lot of problems. They are on
:41:15. > :41:23.about pro testing about it. As English. It is going to kick off
:41:24. > :41:27.right around here. I will tdll you. So who really benefits from this
:41:28. > :41:33.kind of programme? One Labotr councillor is critical of the
:41:34. > :41:38.programme's content and timhng. It does nothing to help the situation
:41:39. > :41:44.we have got. It is sensationalising things in a bad week and is touting
:41:45. > :41:50.everybody with the same brush. It has a political slant on it which
:41:51. > :41:58.seems to be the flavour of the month just before the elections. There are
:41:59. > :42:05.no complaints from the UKIP camp. We will use it to get into powdr so we
:42:06. > :42:12.can prove what we are capable of. We are seeing`macro what 99% of the UK
:42:13. > :42:23.public are seeing`macro. It will give the gypsy families the unique
:42:24. > :42:37.opportunity to tell their stories. Many see that benefits do not come
:42:38. > :42:44.that easily. It is clear thhs is not a place without its problems. Ideal
:42:45. > :42:50.filming here and egg was thrown from nearby. One community told le it is
:42:51. > :42:57.the media portrayal of placds like these that needs to come under the
:42:58. > :43:00.spotlight. At the South Yorkshire MP would you say this programmd was
:43:01. > :43:09.helpful in highlighting the issues concerned? The programme asks who
:43:10. > :43:15.benefits from this, clearly it is the TV company. It is obviotsly made
:43:16. > :43:24.for the drama and with the drama of PV comes distortion. It is not about
:43:25. > :43:28.facts or truth or a sensibld debate. Were you surprised that the UKIP
:43:29. > :43:38.reaction? They claim they are the only party that their talk `bout
:43:39. > :43:43.issues like this. It is to start up hatred and prejudice. It was good to
:43:44. > :43:47.see at the end of the clip that actually explains there are measures
:43:48. > :43:52.in place that people cannot come en masse from Romania and just live a
:43:53. > :43:57.life on benefits. New rules have come in, you need to be looking for
:43:58. > :44:02.work, you can look for work for three months. People coming here to
:44:03. > :44:07.work will not be able to get child benefit or child tax credit for the
:44:08. > :44:13.first three months and therd is even language requirement. There is a new
:44:14. > :44:18.rule that after six months they will be able to be removed as well.
:44:19. > :44:22.Measures are in place. People who want to come here to work and
:44:23. > :44:28.contribute to our communitids are welcome but they cannot comd and
:44:29. > :44:33.live a life on benefits. I hope that is clearly explained in the
:44:34. > :44:37.programme. You said earlier Labour had underestimated the thre`t from
:44:38. > :44:41.UKIP in working`class places. Is this an example where places are
:44:42. > :44:47.generally bothered about people coming in from other countrhes and
:44:48. > :44:51.they see as milking the system? It is a problem that bothers them when
:44:52. > :44:59.they are finding it difficult to get work and they are using `` seeing
:45:00. > :45:06.the employers undercut them by employing immigrants who will work
:45:07. > :45:13.for less. It does risk distorting the picture. Do you know how many
:45:14. > :45:20.white gypsies are in Rotherham? In the last census, just two ydars ago,
:45:21. > :45:26.there were 126. We are an area of 250,000 people. This progralme will
:45:27. > :45:32.not give a proper picture lhke that. It will be used by UKIP, he was
:45:33. > :45:36.quite open about that, we whll use this in the local election
:45:37. > :45:42.campaign. The criticism abott the type of the report and the timing of
:45:43. > :45:46.the report, I think, is well made. Lieber said there was a problem with
:45:47. > :45:58.the Roma community, many of whom had failed to adapt to the Brithsh
:45:59. > :46:02.culture. `` Lieber said. Thd government are tightening up the
:46:03. > :46:08.requirement to learn English, to seek work, those kind of
:46:09. > :46:12.requirements are important `nd could go further for some of what Labour
:46:13. > :46:21.has been arguing for over the past year. We are people want to come to
:46:22. > :46:26.work that is fine. I think the idea, and I hope this progr`mme is
:46:27. > :46:30.not going to encourage this, that people can come here and live a life
:46:31. > :46:37.on benefits at our expense. That must be connected. Why do you think
:46:38. > :46:44.TV producers are so obsessed with people on benefits at the moment? It
:46:45. > :46:56.is down to the common domin`tor I suppose it follows on from
:46:57. > :47:03.Channel's for's Benefits Street I find myself improvising with a young
:47:04. > :47:08.man who had got his first job, he went home in the evening and with
:47:09. > :47:13.his partner put their child to bed. It surprised me in that programme,
:47:14. > :47:17.it did not demonise people, a lot of them were striving for work. We have
:47:18. > :47:22.seen some sensational clips there. It does show that if they are
:47:23. > :47:27.seeking work they will have support while they do that but if they do
:47:28. > :47:32.not and they do not find work they cannot just stay for a life on
:47:33. > :47:37.benefits. Be spin offs with the regard to that are still a huge
:47:38. > :47:45.issue for the electorate, isn't that right? Indeed. The problem for hours
:47:46. > :47:55.as politicians is to conduct this debate sensibly. The latest figures
:47:56. > :47:59.show that benefits are up. We have got to be honest and realistic with
:48:00. > :48:05.people about the nature of our country. What we can do we should do
:48:06. > :48:12.more to control it but let's not make promises we cannot keep. UKIP
:48:13. > :48:25.like to pervade this myth that the vast majority of benefits and
:48:26. > :48:28.immigration come from the ET. Rest assured we will put these things
:48:29. > :48:34.under the spotlight needed the elections. Many conservativds want
:48:35. > :48:39.the party to go into next ydar's general election with a firl pledge
:48:40. > :48:44.to cap the number of onshord wind farms in future. MPs in manx rural
:48:45. > :48:49.constituencies want to halt the spread of turbines across otr
:48:50. > :48:53.countryside. However, the hdad of the European wind energy Association
:48:54. > :48:58.has told the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire that
:48:59. > :49:02.reports have a negative atthtude to wind power and we should le`rn to
:49:03. > :49:13.love turbines. Sharon Edwards reports. While we should welcome the
:49:14. > :49:17.investment by Siemens to invest in offshore manufacturing wind turbines
:49:18. > :49:23.in the Humber it is the futtre of onshore wind energy that hangs in
:49:24. > :49:28.the balance. Plans to build a wind farm of ten giant turbines xear were
:49:29. > :49:32.recently rejected due to thd impact on the landscape. The energx giant
:49:33. > :49:36.behind the application has said it will appeal against the dechsion
:49:37. > :49:43.prompting a fresh battle by campaigners. It is industri`lised
:49:44. > :49:49.and of the landscape, there is no question about that. These `re ten
:49:50. > :49:53.turbines. To give you some hdea the main tower of linking cathedral if
:49:54. > :49:58.you put one of these turbinds alongside, it is 140 feet t`ller
:49:59. > :50:03.than the main tower of Lincoln Cathedral. They want to put that in
:50:04. > :50:11.the countryside and the say it will have no effect! Many want a card or
:50:12. > :50:23.new wind farm applications hn rural areas after 2015. `` curb. The macro
:50:24. > :50:28.frankly the subsidy regime needs to be sorted out. The other thhng that
:50:29. > :50:33.is being happening is that the costs are being passed on to the consumer
:50:34. > :50:39.and industry. Unless somebody does something about it both will suffer
:50:40. > :50:43.in the future. Watching the debate from the continent is the hdad of
:50:44. > :50:49.the European wind energy Association. He says our politicians
:50:50. > :50:55.are too negative toward wind power and Britain should learn to love
:50:56. > :51:01.turbines. It has perhaps in the debate been a little overly
:51:02. > :51:07.negative. Wind turbines, in my opinion, are all so very be`utiful.
:51:08. > :51:10.You could have British wind serving British wind turbines giving British
:51:11. > :51:15.electricity to Britain and the rest of the EU and you would havd the
:51:16. > :51:21.technology with yourself and you would not be as dependent as you are
:51:22. > :51:31.now or we are of the well`bding of Mr Putin and the Middle East. We
:51:32. > :51:35.would also emit less CO2. Wd should be more negative about wind
:51:36. > :51:43.turbines. They achieve nothhng. We should get rid of them. The sooner
:51:44. > :51:49.the better. The stage is set for the battle in the run`up to next year's
:51:50. > :51:58.general election as the battle for votes in the rural communithes. I
:51:59. > :52:03.have been listening to my constituents and they are f`lling
:52:04. > :52:08.out of love, if they ever wdre, with wind turbines. It is probably one of
:52:09. > :52:14.the biggest issues in my mahlbag. There have been a number of major
:52:15. > :52:18.projects including one for the turbines of 100 metres each.
:52:19. > :52:24.Although the community group behind it want a community fund, pdople are
:52:25. > :52:29.seeing these projects not actually benefiting the local lady. Laybe if
:52:30. > :52:35.it provided free clean energy for that community people would think
:52:36. > :52:38.about it differently but it is the landowners and the financial people
:52:39. > :52:44.who are getting the benefit and or the community get are these ugly
:52:45. > :52:54.monstrosities industrialising our beautiful landscape. What do you
:52:55. > :52:58.say? I think they are quite beautiful to look at so I do not
:52:59. > :53:04.have anaesthetic objection to them. Too often they are stitched up by a
:53:05. > :53:09.combination of landowners and energy companies. Something could be done.
:53:10. > :53:14.We it has worked well more has been done to bring in the local community
:53:15. > :53:19.early in the discussions but in the end we have to have wind endrgy and
:53:20. > :53:24.wind generation, including onshore, as part of our energy for the
:53:25. > :53:29.future. There is an agreement between the parties and the
:53:30. > :53:34.commitment from the countrids to see by 2020 at least 15% of our energy
:53:35. > :53:42.from renewable resources. Wd cannot do that without wind. It is more
:53:43. > :53:52.expensive to put them out at sea. Who will pay for that? It ndeds
:53:53. > :54:02.investment. I was glad to sde you mention Siemens investing. There
:54:03. > :54:08.have been more innovations `nd there are other types of renewabld energy.
:54:09. > :54:12.Some people ask if you are for or against onshore wind but I think
:54:13. > :54:20.renewable energy is so much more than that. Is the conservathve tough
:54:21. > :54:25.policy on onshore wind about our future energy needs or trying to
:54:26. > :54:29.stop votes haemorrhaging to UKIP? It is about doing the right thhng for
:54:30. > :54:36.our constituents. The campahgns against these turbines in the
:54:37. > :54:41.Pennines are being led by n`tural England and local heritage groups.
:54:42. > :54:47.We have beautiful landscapes in our part of the world, the Tour de
:54:48. > :54:50.France is coming here. I thhnk the investment should be offshore from
:54:51. > :54:57.now on we need to be respectful of our beautiful countryside. Hs it
:54:58. > :55:03.fair that people struggling to pay their energy bills should stbsidise
:55:04. > :55:10.the green industry? If we are worried about energy tells the thing
:55:11. > :55:15.to do is freeze them. That hs what Ed Miliband is proposing. I do think
:55:16. > :55:18.this is the problem of the Conservative Party ducking `nd
:55:19. > :55:27.diving, worried about losing support and members to UKIP. I would say do
:55:28. > :55:34.not be tempted to do that. Think about what this country needs, think
:55:35. > :55:39.of your kids and not UKIP. H think it is about thinking about our
:55:40. > :55:44.countryside and where we live, listening to our constituents and
:55:45. > :55:50.making investment in offshore wind. We need investment in new ntclear
:55:51. > :55:53.power stations. We need to bring on more biomass. There are lots of
:55:54. > :56:05.things we need to do. My constituents who want more dnergy
:56:06. > :56:12.bills will find this reduces them. David Cameron said he would lead the
:56:13. > :56:16.greenest government ever. At the first side of pressure he h`s sided
:56:17. > :56:27.with the big energy companids and slashed the green levies. Wd have to
:56:28. > :56:34.have this investment. We want to move it offshore. We have m`naged to
:56:35. > :56:44.avoid the F word today, fracking! Now here's our round`up in 60
:56:45. > :56:50.seconds. The government offdr of ?10 million for a phased closurd of
:56:51. > :56:55.these pets was met with dislay by the National union of Mineworkers
:56:56. > :56:58.this week. They are due thehr continued operation is viable.
:56:59. > :57:03.Michael Fallon says that is not the case. There is no other intdrest in
:57:04. > :57:11.prolonging the life of thesd mines beyond 2015, it is not a vi`ble
:57:12. > :57:18.proposition. Meanwhile Labotr says outlying areas are missing out on
:57:19. > :57:24.investment in London. David Cameron's welcome news that Leeds
:57:25. > :57:28.`based Asda says it will crdate 12,000 new jobs over the next five
:57:29. > :57:34.years, he said the move would give people financial security for the
:57:35. > :57:38.future. Shops that sell alcohol in Hull are being asked by the police
:57:39. > :57:48.to stop selling super`strength alcohol and cider. Clearly not the
:57:49. > :57:54.cafe culture they are looking for in Hull. It is time for two except what
:57:55. > :58:02.many are seen as inevitable, these collieries are not going to be
:58:03. > :58:06.saved? I do not see it like that. The ?10 million loan seems to be
:58:07. > :58:11.about reducing costs to the taxpayer which the country wants to charge
:58:12. > :58:16.for the redundancy payments. What I would like to see energy ministers
:58:17. > :58:21.do is work hard to find and work with potential investors to keep
:58:22. > :58:27.these pets going. It seems to me `` that we have such a wealth of call
:58:28. > :58:32.in this country and we are `ctually ending now that the mind industry. I
:58:33. > :58:40.would like to see serious study on how we use this call for our future
:58:41. > :58:45.and long`term. To do that wd have to mine it, use it to power our power
:58:46. > :58:50.stations but do it cleanly so we do not have a carbon problem as well.
:58:51. > :58:57.We are importing more from other countries, many would say that is
:58:58. > :59:02.crazy. I know our local MP hs working his socks off to get a good
:59:03. > :59:06.deal and they hope the lot can be done to keep on growing energy
:59:07. > :59:11.supplies. That is what we are talking about when we talk `bout
:59:12. > :59:15.renewables. People need to think about energy security as well as
:59:16. > :59:22.cost. I'd macro why do we nded regional ministers? We saw hn the
:59:23. > :59:26.last report about Siemens m`king this big investment in renewable
:59:27. > :59:33.energy in the eastern part of the region. That was because of our
:59:34. > :59:37.development agency in the rdgion. Unless you have got ministers
:59:38. > :59:41.speaking up in government and agencies in our region able to make
:59:42. > :59:49.decisions on investment, it will not happen. Who is batting for Xorkshire
:59:50. > :59:55.at Westminster? I think I mdntion Yorkshire all the time when I am
:59:56. > :00:00.down in Parliament. What it needs is Yorkshire MPs who live in Yorkshire
:00:01. > :00:05.banging the drum for Yorkshhre the in and day out in Westminstdr and in
:00:06. > :00:10.their constituencies. We have a very successful all`party group for
:00:11. > :00:16.Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. We meet with ministers and the Chancellor
:00:17. > :00:21.banging the drum for the re`l investment as well and we nded more
:00:22. > :00:26.of that. I agree and we shotld be doing more of that but in the end we
:00:27. > :00:29.should not be going to Whitdhall or Westminster for some of these
:00:30. > :00:33.decisions over transport, skills, job programmes, we need those
:00:34. > :00:39.decisions taken in Yorkshird for Yorkshire. We have to leave it
:00:40. > :00:48.there. Jason will be in training for next year's
:00:49. > :00:51.Andrew. The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the
:00:52. > :00:52.London Marathon, and MPs leave Westminster for their Easter break.
:00:53. > :01:04.Let's discuss what's coming up in the Week Ahead.
:01:05. > :01:09.We will get more of what we have just seen. Let's look back on the
:01:10. > :01:13.debate. What did we learn from the argument is? That it is going to
:01:14. > :01:18.bore and irritate whole lot of people, this election campaign. Four
:01:19. > :01:22.parties shouting at each other about things that most people do not know
:01:23. > :01:26.much about. They know very little about how the European Parliament
:01:27. > :01:35.works, what an MEP is supposed to do. A lot of heat and not a lot of
:01:36. > :01:38.light. I've updated well, all of them, but the net effect is not
:01:39. > :01:45.going to encourage people to go out and vote and not many do. One thing
:01:46. > :01:50.that struck me was that on Europe, the Labour and Lib Dem positions are
:01:51. > :01:55.not that far apart. They are pretty much the same. And yet the knocks
:01:56. > :01:58.lots of each other. I suppose they feel that they had to do that
:01:59. > :02:05.because that is the format. I'd agree with Polly. Their word UKIP
:02:06. > :02:11.and the Tories to attack two we try to make it exciting, and we know the
:02:12. > :02:14.issues are important. But people out there have not heard of these
:02:15. > :02:18.individuals. It is not very exciting. That is worrying because
:02:19. > :02:22.these are huge national questions for us. We need to find a way of
:02:23. > :02:29.making it more fun. People may not know these MEPs, they may not know
:02:30. > :02:33.the detail of the debate, but it is an issue on which people have strong
:02:34. > :02:37.opinions. It is a visceral thing for many people. Especially on the
:02:38. > :02:43.immigration issue. The debate took off and became more vociferous at
:02:44. > :02:47.that point. To a large extent, you wonder whether not only this
:02:48. > :02:50.European election but the eventual referendum will be a referendum on
:02:51. > :02:55.the issue of immigration and free movement. If we did not learn much
:02:56. > :02:57.from the argument, the thing we did learn is that the structure of these
:02:58. > :03:05.televised debate influences the outcome. One of the reasons that
:03:06. > :03:11.Nigel Farage did well in the debate is that in a two-man debate, each
:03:12. > :03:15.man has as good a chance as the other. If it is four people, one man
:03:16. > :03:21.can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn did well for a man who is not an
:03:22. > :03:24.elected politician yet. At times, 40 came under attack and did not hold
:03:25. > :03:28.the line as well as you would expect. Does that create a perverse
:03:29. > :03:33.incentive for the main parties to agree to a four way debate before
:03:34. > :03:36.the general election? I do not think the David Cameron has nearly as much
:03:37. > :03:41.to worry about from a televised debate in the run-up to the
:03:42. > :03:44.elections than his spin doctors believe. When you put him up against
:03:45. > :03:48.Ed Miliband, and we have not actually seen Ed Miliband in that
:03:49. > :03:56.format, I think he will come off all right. This is an election which the
:03:57. > :04:01.polls would have us believe that the battle for first place is between
:04:02. > :04:04.UKIP and labour. It certainly is. Obviously, it is neck and neck and
:04:05. > :04:10.we will not know until we are closer. And it matters a lot to both
:04:11. > :04:13.of them. If Mr Miliband does not come first, that is not good news
:04:14. > :04:20.for the main opposition at this stage. Except to some extent all of
:04:21. > :04:26.the people will put it to one side and say that this is a bizarre
:04:27. > :04:29.election. A plague on both your houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not
:04:30. > :04:35.clear how much that translates into the next election. It is not too
:04:36. > :04:41.disastrous for Labour. It would be better if they came first. If Mr
:04:42. > :04:48.Miliband comes first, not a problem, but it becomes second and UKIP soars
:04:49. > :04:50.away, what are the consequences I think there is a widespread
:04:51. > :04:56.expectation already at Westminster that UKIP is very likely to come
:04:57. > :04:59.first. If Ed Miliband fails to come first, there will not be a great
:05:00. > :05:03.deal of shock in the West Mr village. Else think what is
:05:04. > :05:08.remarkable about Ed Miliband is that despite consistently poor personal
:05:09. > :05:15.leadership approval ratings, the overall Labour poll is consistently
:05:16. > :05:18.very high. We have seen that budget blip, it seems to have taken us back
:05:19. > :05:23.to where we were before. Leadership is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was
:05:24. > :05:30.miles behind James Callaghan but in the end, it was the party politics
:05:31. > :05:35.that mattered more. If Mr Cameron comes third and the Tories come
:05:36. > :05:39.third, maybe a poor third, is it headless chicken time on the Tory
:05:40. > :05:42.backbenchers? It has often been said that the Tory Party has two modes,
:05:43. > :05:51.complacency and panic. You will see them shift into panic mode. By June,
:05:52. > :05:54.I think. Many of the stories in the sun will be about David Cameron s
:05:55. > :05:58.personal leadership and his grip on the party. There will be pressure on
:05:59. > :06:03.conference by the time that comes around. It is a natural consequence
:06:04. > :06:11.of being the incumbent party. The Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls
:06:12. > :06:16.today. It was widely thought that in the first and second debates, Nigel
:06:17. > :06:22.Farage won both. In retrospect, was the challenge strategy a disaster
:06:23. > :06:27.for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was because he had nothing to lose. But
:06:28. > :06:33.he is lower in the polls than when he started. He has not lost a great
:06:34. > :06:39.deal. The polls were quite often that low. I think it was a good
:06:40. > :06:44.thing to do. It raised his profile. It made him the leading party in.
:06:45. > :06:50.That may be a difficult place to be. That is how you end up with 7%
:06:51. > :06:53.in the polls. The reason he is fighting with Labour is that he
:06:54. > :06:57.knows very well that all he has to do is to get his votes back that
:06:58. > :07:03.have gone to Labour and labour have to fight hard to make sure that they
:07:04. > :07:08.do not go back. Every party looks to where it is going to get it
:07:09. > :07:11.support. If it is a wipe-out for the Lib Dems, and they lose all their
:07:12. > :07:19.MEPs, not saying that is going to happen but you could not rule it out
:07:20. > :07:21.for, are we back in Nick Clegg leadership crisis territory? One of
:07:22. > :07:26.the astonishing things about this Parliament is the relative absence
:07:27. > :07:29.of leadership speculation about Nick Clegg will stop at the first couple
:07:30. > :07:33.of years, his position seems tricky, but maybe that is because
:07:34. > :07:37.Chris Hughton is gone and he was the only plausible candidate. This cable
:07:38. > :07:41.is not getting any younger, to put it delicately. That was not delegate
:07:42. > :07:44.at all! And we have reached a desperate stage where Danny
:07:45. > :07:48.Alexander is talked about as a candidate. That was not delegate
:07:49. > :07:53.either! Maybe he is holding onto power the lack of alternatives. If
:07:54. > :08:00.they ended up with no MEPs at all, and a less than double digits
:08:01. > :08:04.score... With Danny Alexander, it is clear that Scotland, one way or
:08:05. > :08:10.another, will be moving further away. You could not have the leader
:08:11. > :08:14.of a national party be a Scot. But he does not have the following in
:08:15. > :08:18.the party. I'm glad you're liberal attitudes to immigration extends to
:08:19. > :08:23.me. I would not have been here for 43 years. There will be leadership
:08:24. > :08:28.talk after that holes. It has been bubbling in the background, but you
:08:29. > :08:35.have to talk to the grass roots activists. -- after the polls. The
:08:36. > :08:38.grass roots activists are despairing. If things are bad, they
:08:39. > :08:42.lose their network of activists who they need to fight the next
:08:43. > :08:44.election. I think you mean, not that you could have a Scot, but that it
:08:45. > :08:48.would be more difficult you could have a Scot, but that it
:08:49. > :08:54.Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish
:08:55. > :09:00.constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great
:09:01. > :09:04.offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It
:09:05. > :09:07.is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet
:09:08. > :09:12.another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine
:09:13. > :09:19.counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very
:09:20. > :09:22.embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the
:09:23. > :09:26.threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered
:09:27. > :09:31.at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know
:09:32. > :09:34.what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the
:09:35. > :09:36.case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it
:09:37. > :09:41.is legitimate to bundle together interesting point about whether it
:09:42. > :09:46.number of stand-alone relatively weak accusations, and when you put
:09:47. > :09:52.them together to militantly, the CPS uses that to make a case. Is that a
:09:53. > :09:55.legitimate thing to do? He was a high-profile figure, not just
:09:56. > :10:03.because he was a Tory MP. He was the deputy speaker of the House. And yet
:10:04. > :10:08.the CPS are certainly the police, to begin with they did not have that
:10:09. > :10:12.many people to testify against him. And then they trawled for more. You
:10:13. > :10:15.wonder if they would have done that if it was not for the fact that he
:10:16. > :10:19.was a public figure. The trouble is, they are dammed if they do and
:10:20. > :10:22.dammed if they do not. Particularly with politicians and the reputation
:10:23. > :10:26.they have these days, if there is any suggestion that they let
:10:27. > :10:29.somebody off because they are a high-profile politician, and they
:10:30. > :10:35.are saying that about Cyril Smith, that is the accusation. A strange
:10:36. > :10:39.story. Most unlikely and very bizarre. But that is the accusation.
:10:40. > :10:45.If there is any with of that, I can see why the CPS says, we better let
:10:46. > :10:49.the courts try this one. Also, they are in trouble overrated cases
:10:50. > :10:56.because their success rate on bringing people to court for rape is
:10:57. > :10:59.so thin. When it looked as if his accusers were not really accusing
:11:00. > :11:04.him, it looks quite weak. You cannot help but feeling that they are
:11:05. > :11:07.falling over backwards now in high-profile cases because of their
:11:08. > :11:12.abject and total failure over Jimmy Savile. I think this is exactly the
:11:13. > :11:16.kind of case that happens when you are trying to make a point or redeem
:11:17. > :11:20.a reputation or change a culture. All of these big things. As opposed
:11:21. > :11:23.to what criminal justice is supposed to be about, which is specific
:11:24. > :11:28.crimes and specific evidence matching those crimes. The CPS has
:11:29. > :11:31.no copper a fleet joined in this list of public and situations that
:11:32. > :11:34.has taken a fall over the past five or six years. We have had
:11:35. > :11:38.Parliament, the newspapers, the police will stop I think this is as
:11:39. > :11:41.bad a humiliation as any of those because it is Innocent people
:11:42. > :11:44.suffering. You are the most recent, being a lobby correspondent in
:11:45. > :11:48.Westminster, and we now see on Channel 4 News that basically,
:11:49. > :11:56.Westminster is twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this
:11:57. > :12:00.true? It is all rather the red. I do not move in those circles. And you
:12:01. > :12:05.were in the lobby at one stage? Not that long ago. Is it right. Is it
:12:06. > :12:09.right to be twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his
:12:10. > :12:17.opinion. Being technically a member of the lobby, I can observe some of
:12:18. > :12:21.this stuff. And what surprises me is that journalists, when the complain
:12:22. > :12:25.about Sodom and Gomorrah, write themselves out of it. It is as if it
:12:26. > :12:30.is just MPs. We are unalloyed and unvarnished. Actually, the fact is
:12:31. > :12:34.it has always been a bit like Sodom and tomorrow. Of course it has.
:12:35. > :12:38.Think about how we have had wave after wave of stories and scandals.
:12:39. > :12:44.But less of it recently. It was I think that attitudes have slightly
:12:45. > :12:50.changed. I'll also think that if you get 650 people in any organisation
:12:51. > :12:54.and you put that much scrutiny on them, you will find an awful lot
:12:55. > :12:58.going on in most people's officers of a scurrilous nature. Even in the
:12:59. > :14:01.BBC In 2013, the public voted for
:14:02. > :14:04.a portrait of At times he's interesting,
:14:05. > :14:12.at times he's very funny, My life is a very happy life
:14:13. > :14:20.and I'm a very happy person. Will you feel nervous
:14:21. > :14:22.when this is unveiled? I suppose being the centre
:14:23. > :14:25.of attention but for ever. You're wanted, you're needed,
:14:26. > :14:44.so everything is not over. which has been voted one of
:14:45. > :15:13.the coolest towns to live in. I wonder how cool our teams
:15:14. > :15:16.are going to be today