:00:35. > :00:40.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Walls are being
:00:41. > :00:43.re-painted in Belfast as Gerry Adams begins his fourth day in police
:00:44. > :00:47.custody in connection with one of the most brutal and shocking murders
:00:48. > :00:58.of the Troubles. That's our top story.
:00:59. > :01:01.He may have got egg on his face this week but Nigel Farage is a serious
:01:02. > :01:04.electoral threat in this month's elections. I'll ask the Conservative
:01:05. > :01:06.Party Chairman Grant Shapps how worried he is.
:01:07. > :01:11.And we're on the trail of Nick Clegg. You were voted the best
:01:12. > :01:23.Stay with us for the Sunday Politics likely to be a good
:01:24. > :01:26.Stay with us for the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. We
:01:27. > :01:26.find out why there are calls for voters
:01:27. > :01:29.in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. We find out why there are calls for
:01:30. > :01:30.voters to be given more power to sack badly
:01:31. > :01:38.debate what it means for London. And with me, as always, the best and
:01:39. > :01:41.the brightest political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis
:01:42. > :01:46.and Janan Ganesh. They'll be throwing metaphorical rotten eggs
:01:47. > :01:49.into the twittersphere. First this morning - Gerry Adams,
:01:50. > :01:52.President of Sinn Fein, has spent a fourth night in police custody after
:01:53. > :02:06.he was arrested in connection with the killing of Jean McConville more
:02:07. > :02:08.than 40 years ago. Sinn Fein has claimed that the arrest is
:02:09. > :02:12.politically motivated coming, as it does, during local and European
:02:13. > :02:14.election campaigns. Northern Ireland's deputy first minister,
:02:15. > :02:17.Martin McGuinness, has indicated he might review the party's support for
:02:18. > :02:20.policing in the province if Gerry Adams is charged. The Jean
:02:21. > :02:21.McConville murder was one of the most notorious cases of the
:02:22. > :02:27.Troubles. The widowed mother of ten was
:02:28. > :02:33.kidnapped from her home in December 1972, never to be seen alive again.
:02:34. > :02:39.The IRA denied involvement but in 1999 admitted it had murdered her
:02:40. > :02:44.and several others, known as the Disappeared. Before his death, the
:02:45. > :02:45.former IRA commander Brendan Hughes pointed the finger at Gerry Adams,
:02:46. > :03:00.claiming: In April this year, either Bell was
:03:01. > :03:10.charged with aiding and abetting the murder. -- Ivor Bell. Gerry Adams
:03:11. > :03:14.has always insisted he is innocent of any part in the abduction and
:03:15. > :03:18.killing all burial of Mrs McConville.
:03:19. > :03:21.We were hoping to speak to the Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa
:03:22. > :03:24.Villiers, but having agreed to do an interview with us this morning, she
:03:25. > :03:31.pulled out. But we are joined from Belfast by Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey.
:03:32. > :03:44.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. And the police just doing their job by
:03:45. > :03:49.questioning Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams said publicly some time ago that he
:03:50. > :03:54.was available to speak to the police, but that is not what this is
:03:55. > :03:57.about at the moment, because what we have here is clearly evidence in our
:03:58. > :04:03.mind of political interference in what should be due process. Gerry
:04:04. > :04:08.Adams made it clear some time ago he wanted to speak to the police, it
:04:09. > :04:13.was available at any time, and yet that request was not taken up until
:04:14. > :04:17.three weeks into an election and we believe that was deliberately
:04:18. > :04:22.orchestrated by a small number of people. What evidence can you
:04:23. > :04:30.present this morning that proves that claim? The direct circumstances
:04:31. > :04:34.Gerry Adams finds himself in at the moment, take that in stark contrast
:04:35. > :04:44.when they have dealt moment, take that in stark contrast
:04:45. > :04:53.the British Army for instance... That is just circumstantial. The
:04:54. > :04:57.PSNI know that the soldiers involved in that and a number of other
:04:58. > :05:03.high-profile killings of citizens here, and not one of those people
:05:04. > :05:08.has been arrested. In fact any of the people who were interviewed were
:05:09. > :05:19.interviewed by request. There was a stark contrast, in terms of how they
:05:20. > :05:24.have dealt with the British military involving state killings. We haven't
:05:25. > :05:29.got too much time. Sinn Fein said it would review its support for the
:05:30. > :05:34.PSNI if Gerry Adams is charged. That sounds like political interference
:05:35. > :05:40.in the police process. It's not because we have a clear mandate from
:05:41. > :05:45.the people who elect us. Policing has been an important part of the
:05:46. > :05:51.peace process here for many years, Sinn Fein plays an important role in
:05:52. > :05:56.local policing partnerships. We negotiate to make sure we have
:05:57. > :06:03.powers transferred here to elected representatives in the north. It is
:06:04. > :06:08.a long way to go before we have policing highly accountable, and
:06:09. > :06:25.making sure they deliver a very impartial service. How will he react
:06:26. > :06:30.if Gerry Adams is charged? I am still trying to get a clear answer.
:06:31. > :06:37.If Gerry Adams is charged, will you withdraw support for the Northern
:06:38. > :06:42.Ireland police service? We view this as a serious situation and a serious
:06:43. > :06:47.ongoing situation and we will monitor how this pans out. We have a
:06:48. > :06:51.very important role to play to support the police service here. We
:06:52. > :06:58.have done consistently, worked with them on a daily basis, but we will
:06:59. > :07:02.not accept political interference by a small number of people in the
:07:03. > :07:10.police who are undermining the police. We will not accept political
:07:11. > :07:15.policing. If there was evidence, and I emphasise the word if, because we
:07:16. > :07:20.have seen none, but if there were evidence to justify Gerry Adams
:07:21. > :07:25.being charged, why should he not be charged? It is my understanding from
:07:26. > :07:31.the family of Gerry Adams that there has not been a single shred of
:07:32. > :07:39.evidence put forward. I understand that, but if there was evidence, why
:07:40. > :07:43.should he not be charged? You put that caveat yourself and then you
:07:44. > :07:48.expect me to speculate, there is no way I will do that. The fact of the
:07:49. > :07:53.matter is there hasn't been one single shred of evidence put to
:07:54. > :07:58.Gerry Adams in the last few days, in fact what has been put to him is a
:07:59. > :08:03.range of issues of newspaper cuttings, books, statements made
:08:04. > :08:05.from people, including from people who didn't want their statements
:08:06. > :08:16.released until they have died. who didn't want their statements
:08:17. > :08:23.was charged, again I emphasise the word if, does the police process
:08:24. > :08:28.fall apart? The police process is a fragile entity, it requires work and
:08:29. > :08:29.we have been saying this publicly and privately with the Irish and
:08:30. > :08:44.British and privately with the Irish and
:08:45. > :08:46.process has to be nurtured and developed. We are not out of the
:08:47. > :08:52.woods yet. From a Republican point of view we have been working flat
:08:53. > :09:00.out. I just wanted a quick answer to my question, is a yes or no? What
:09:01. > :09:05.question I asking me? Is the peace process in jeopardy? It is fragile
:09:06. > :09:11.and I am not going to have words put into my mouth but I don't want to
:09:12. > :09:18.use. It has to be worked out and nurtured. Thank you for joining us.
:09:19. > :09:23.Nick Watt, you were a Northern Ireland correspondent like myself in
:09:24. > :09:27.days gone by. Where is this going to go? It shows how challenging the
:09:28. > :09:31.peace process is because on the one hand you have the unspeakable pain
:09:32. > :09:37.of the McConville family, but you also have the danger of not having
:09:38. > :09:41.mechanisms to deal with the past. South Africa is a good example, you
:09:42. > :09:45.have to have some mechanism to deal with the past because if you don't,
:09:46. > :09:56.you are going to have, as Sinn Fein have now, someone in a police cell
:09:57. > :09:59.but you don't have the arrests of the Bloody Sunday soldiers.
:10:00. > :10:07.Paramilitary prisoners were released after two years... We have seen no
:10:08. > :10:14.action against somebody accused of the Hyde Park bombings, it is not a
:10:15. > :10:21.one-way street. We have the decommissioning of IRA weapons by
:10:22. > :10:25.the IRA, therefore destroying crucial evidence. You have these
:10:26. > :10:29.inconsistencies because you don't have an mechanism for dealing with
:10:30. > :10:34.the past, but doing that is really difficult because of the pain of
:10:35. > :10:39.real people. Don't you get a feeling that here in London they are hoping
:10:40. > :10:43.he will not be charged? Definitely because it would be nice if
:10:44. > :10:52.everything went away, but the civil case of the family is taken out of
:10:53. > :10:55.the hands of the police. You can see here a real failure in Westminster
:10:56. > :11:04.to see this as anything other than settled. David Cameron we know sees
:11:05. > :11:07.himself as a chairman. I was speaking to a friend in Northern
:11:08. > :11:12.Ireland who said he has never met Gerry Adams and I think this is very
:11:13. > :11:18.revealing. They consider this as a settled issue that will not trouble
:11:19. > :11:22.Westminster again. It would be, but the relatives of the disappeared
:11:23. > :11:26.don't want it to be settled. This points to the reality that the
:11:27. > :11:32.Belfast agreement probably had to be done, but the moral price at which
:11:33. > :11:36.it was purchased was far greater than we were willing to admit during
:11:37. > :11:41.the euphoria. For a country that prides itself by the rule of law to
:11:42. > :11:49.tolerate the early release of prisoners and former pal and
:11:50. > :11:56.military -- paramilitaries, I think was a very serious matter. As for
:11:57. > :12:00.the PSNI, it only exists because its predecessor failed to command the
:12:01. > :12:07.confidence of the nationalist community. It is a very big deal if
:12:08. > :12:19.even the PSNI ends up falling into the same trap. We have to is leave
:12:20. > :12:22.it there I'm afraid. It was the Conservative's local election
:12:23. > :12:25.campaign launch on Friday, and what did David Cameron focus on? Burning
:12:26. > :12:28.local issues like the state of our roads, rubbish collection or care of
:12:29. > :12:31.the elderly? No. It was Europe. The Prime Minister re-iterated again his
:12:32. > :12:34.promise of an in-out referendum on our membership of the EU in 2017.
:12:35. > :12:37.And it's being reported this morning that he will share a platform with
:12:38. > :12:41.Nigel Farage in a pre-general election debate. Here's what the
:12:42. > :12:49.UKIP leader had to say about the issue when he was on the Marr Show
:12:50. > :12:53.this morning with Ed Miliband. David Cameron very often makes these vague
:12:54. > :13:00.promises, then doesn't deliver afterwards. I don't think he has any
:13:01. > :13:07.intention of allowing me into any of these debates. Perhaps Ed Miliband
:13:08. > :13:11.wants to debate? We have got to have the TV debates as we did join the
:13:12. > :13:16.last general election. I think David Cameron is doing everything he can
:13:17. > :13:21.to wriggle out of them. It is up to the broadcasters but whether they
:13:22. > :13:33.invite Nigel. My main desire is that the debates go ahead. We are joined
:13:34. > :13:39.now by Grant Shapps. Will he be included? The debates were not
:13:40. > :13:42.without problems, they took place during the campaign period and
:13:43. > :13:48.disrupted the flow of the campaign, taking it out of the regions, people
:13:49. > :13:52.getting to speak to the leaders so a longer period for that would be
:13:53. > :13:58.helpful. I think they are good idea and they should go ahead, but all of
:13:59. > :14:03.the negotiation about who is involved is yet to happen. So it is
:14:04. > :14:08.not a done deal that Nigel Farage will be included? That needs to be
:14:09. > :14:13.negotiated with the TV companies. The Conservatives believe we should
:14:14. > :14:22.have debates, but exactly the format and the timing, all of the -- that
:14:23. > :14:27.will be debated in the autumn, but first we have European elections,
:14:28. > :14:35.the Queen 's speech and a Scottish referendum. The local election
:14:36. > :14:44.campaign was launched on Friday. Why did you talk more about Europe than
:14:45. > :14:48.local councils? Both are important. The local elections are critically
:14:49. > :14:55.important for people, their local services. It is easy to forget, for
:14:56. > :14:58.example, that the council tax has been largely frozen since this
:14:59. > :15:03.Government came to power, a big contrast to Dublin under the
:15:04. > :15:10.previous Labour government. So why did you go on and on about Europe?
:15:11. > :15:19.Let me show you the poster used to launch your local election campaign.
:15:20. > :15:23.There it is, and in-out referendum on Europe, the day of the local
:15:24. > :15:28.elections, where is the word local? Is it in small print? I hear what
:15:29. > :15:32.you're saying, I am happy to be here to talk about the local elections.
:15:33. > :15:37.But you are right, they are on the same day, and not many people know
:15:38. > :15:41.that only by voting conservative can you get an in-out referendum. --
:15:42. > :15:50.Conservative. UKIP cannot deliver, we can, it is the same date, so
:15:51. > :15:53.people... This was the launch of the local election campaign. Why does
:15:54. > :15:57.the Prime Minister have to keep on promising something he has already
:15:58. > :16:04.promised? The actual referendum would be in 2017. He promised it
:16:05. > :16:08.before, he keeps repeating it because he knows people don't really
:16:09. > :16:12.trust him. I think it is a question of the fact that, actually, unless
:16:13. > :16:17.you remind people that the pledges there, that the only way to get an
:16:18. > :16:21.in-out referendum is to vote for it, this is a critical moment at
:16:22. > :16:27.which we need people to vote for that referendum if they want it. It
:16:28. > :16:31.is not the case, as I saw this morning, being said by Nigel Farage,
:16:32. > :16:35.that a referendum was promised before and not delivered. There was
:16:36. > :16:43.no referendum in the last manifesto. There will be in the next one. There
:16:44. > :16:52.was a cast-iron guarantee, in the Sun in 2006. Let's just clear that
:16:53. > :16:56.up... Once the Lisbon Treaty... In the Sun article, he said, we will
:16:57. > :17:01.have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Clearly, because that treaty
:17:02. > :17:06.had been passed before the general election, it is difficult to have a
:17:07. > :17:12.referendum on something in the past. We joined Europe in the 1970s,
:17:13. > :17:16.having a referendum on that! Look, that is about the future. Our
:17:17. > :17:21.relationship with Europe is absolutely critical. Most people in
:17:22. > :17:26.this country feel, I was not old enough to vote in that referendum,
:17:27. > :17:30.most of those who voted, they voted for a Common Market, that is not
:17:31. > :17:37.what we have got. We want to continue the work we have been doing
:17:38. > :17:41.in the EU Budget, what did UKIP do? They voted against it. We want more
:17:42. > :17:44.of those powers brought home, and we will put it to a referendum, and
:17:45. > :17:51.people will have to vote Conservative to get it. We have been
:17:52. > :17:54.looking at new research, almost two thirds of Conservative members are
:17:55. > :18:02.considering voting for UKIP, almost two thirds. I have a simple message
:18:03. > :18:11.here, which is this. If you vote for UKIP... Can we have it up? 30% are
:18:12. > :18:15.likely, 30% are possible. That is why it is important we are making
:18:16. > :18:20.these arguments. If you vote for UKIP, you are voting to take us
:18:21. > :18:25.further away from returning powers to this country, further from a
:18:26. > :18:29.referendum. It is support for Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister,
:18:30. > :18:33.and he will do exactly what Labour have always done - hand away powers,
:18:34. > :18:38.and away the rebate for nothing in return, giving Europe even more so
:18:39. > :18:42.over the day-to-day affairs in Britain. Why are so many people
:18:43. > :18:46.considering voting UKIP? It is to hold your feet to the fire, they do
:18:47. > :18:50.not trust you on a referendum, so they will vote UKIP to force you to
:18:51. > :18:56.tap in your line. We have a very tough line. If I had said four years
:18:57. > :19:01.ago that this government would manage to cut the overall EU
:19:02. > :19:05.budget, would take us out of the bailout fund that Labour got us
:19:06. > :19:09.into, passing a law that no more powers can go to Europe without a
:19:10. > :19:13.referendum, if I had said that, people would say, I do not believe
:19:14. > :19:16.it will happen. Not only have we done these things, we are promising
:19:17. > :19:20.and in-out referendum, and the only way to get it is to vote
:19:21. > :19:25.Conservative. Nigel Farage has said, we can't change anything in
:19:26. > :19:30.Europe, and it is no wonder that the president of the European Commission
:19:31. > :19:35.has said, we love having these UKIP MEPs, because they don't turn up and
:19:36. > :19:41.vote, apart from when they vote against the cut in the budget. It
:19:42. > :19:45.goes beyond UKIP in your party, because this research also showed
:19:46. > :19:49.that those Conservative members most likely to vote for UKIP, they said
:19:50. > :19:53.they do not feel valued or respected by their own leadership, and they
:19:54. > :20:00.regard David Cameron as ideological eat more remote from them than UKIP.
:20:01. > :20:09.What I would say is look at that list... Let me take that step
:20:10. > :20:17.further. What people need our series solutions to serious problems. When
:20:18. > :20:22.people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will say, which one of the 40% of the
:20:23. > :20:26.MEPs who got in for UKIP last time are you voting for, the ones above
:20:27. > :20:31.left or defected, the ones have gone to jail? 40% have ended up not
:20:32. > :20:36.delivering. People have a right to know what to expect when they vote
:20:37. > :20:39.in these elections. They can look at our record at home, and this goes to
:20:40. > :20:46.the point you have raised about what we have done in Britain to get this
:20:47. > :20:49.economy back on track, recover from Labour's recession. We are prepared
:20:50. > :20:56.to take those decisions in Europe as well. Presumably, active
:20:57. > :21:01.Conservative members, they know that, so why do they not feel valued
:21:02. > :21:05.by the leadership? I spend time going up and down the country
:21:06. > :21:12.meeting Conservative members, and they are on the doorstep, last
:21:13. > :21:18.weekend 150 out in Enfield campaigning for the European and
:21:19. > :21:22.local elections... Why are they keen on UKIP? When I meet somebody who
:21:23. > :21:30.says that, not necessarily a member... Have you met members of
:21:31. > :21:39.say they will vote UKIP? No, but a vote for UKIP is... Do not do it,
:21:40. > :21:44.you will end up with Labour having more control, handing away powers to
:21:45. > :21:51.Europe. 51-year-old meeting members who say they will vote UKIP, you
:21:52. > :21:55.must be out of touch. -- if you are not meeting members. Some of your
:21:56. > :21:59.members are thinking of voting UKIP. I spend huge amount of time
:22:00. > :22:05.travelling around, I just told you about this action day in Enfield,
:22:06. > :22:10.where we had an enormous turnout. Those members were on the doorsteps
:22:11. > :22:15.pointing out that you can only get reform in Europe by voting
:22:16. > :22:20.Conservative. Labour and the Lib Dems will not deliver, UKIP can't,
:22:21. > :22:24.Conservatives will. You have not got that message across, because a
:22:25. > :22:33.YouGov poll shows, on Europe, who has the best policies? Tories 18%,
:22:34. > :22:39.Labour 19%, UKIP 27%. On the economy, Tories 27%, Labour 23, UKIP
:22:40. > :22:46.4. Why don't you shut up about Europe and talk about the economy?
:22:47. > :22:50.Look, on the 27th of May, we have European elections, as well as local
:22:51. > :22:53.elections. If I don't talk about the European elections, you would say
:22:54. > :22:56.what you said at the beginning about not talking about the local
:22:57. > :23:00.elections! These are serious elections, and the point I am tried
:23:01. > :23:05.to make is that the issues at stake are not peripheral, they are not
:23:06. > :23:08.unimportant. Our MEPs have been battling to cut red tape from a
:23:09. > :23:11.European level on small businesses, the same thing this government has
:23:12. > :23:14.been doing for small businesses domestic league, where for example
:23:15. > :23:21.every small business owner watching this show knows they have got ?2000
:23:22. > :23:24.back in employment announced on national insurance contributions. We
:23:25. > :23:29.are doing it at home, we are doing it in Europe, and it is important to
:23:30. > :23:43.tie that together. Ireland that Mr Cameron saying, you should stop
:23:44. > :23:53.banging on about Europe... -- I remember. This is before the last
:23:54. > :23:58.general election, as in days for the Lib Dems, 18%. Even then, you didn't
:23:59. > :24:02.win the election, and now you are only three or four points ahead, it
:24:03. > :24:09.doesn't look good for you, does it? Even then, the poll did not turn out
:24:10. > :24:13.to be what it was on the day. No, that is what happens, that is the
:24:14. > :24:15.voting intentions now! You are in a worse position than a year before
:24:16. > :24:23.the last election, which you didn't win. We are almost proving the point
:24:24. > :24:27.that you can take a clip at any moment in time, not sounding like a
:24:28. > :24:33.politician, but the only poll that matters is on the day. In just over
:24:34. > :24:38.a year's time, people will have a completely different picture to look
:24:39. > :24:43.at than these opinion polls. We have an economy from being a basket
:24:44. > :24:48.case, the great Labour recession knocking 7% of this economy, hurting
:24:49. > :24:52.every family, to a point where we the fastest-growing economy in the
:24:53. > :24:56.developed world. In a year's time, I hope people will see that we are the
:24:57. > :25:00.people who've taken the difficult decisions, got the economy to the
:25:01. > :25:04.right place, more security for you and your family. Do not give the car
:25:05. > :25:08.keys back to the people who crashed it in the first place. If I had a
:25:09. > :25:13.pound for every time I have heard that! It is clearly not getting
:25:14. > :25:21.through. On the Pfizer attempted of AstraZeneca, Mr Miliband called this
:25:22. > :25:25.morning for a tougher public interest test such big takeovers. Do
:25:26. > :25:32.you agree with that or not? Let me be absolutely clear, if there is any
:25:33. > :25:40.kind of joining, we are in favour of British jobs, British aren't deep,
:25:41. > :25:53.expanding our pharmaceutical sector. -- R But what Mr Mallon and wants
:25:54. > :25:57.to do with rent caps, he is anti-business. -- Mr Miliband. He
:25:58. > :26:09.wants to take us back to the bad old those. -- bad old days. Should there
:26:10. > :26:13.be a bigger public interest test? We have seen some takeovers that people
:26:14. > :26:19.have criticised, but others, like Bentley, Land Rover, which have been
:26:20. > :26:24.very successful. Should there be a tougher test?! We will have tests
:26:25. > :26:28.that ensured this get-together becomes a great Anglo-American
:26:29. > :26:32.project, or it doesn't happen, but the Miliband approach is simply to
:26:33. > :26:36.be anti-business, anti-jobs and anti-job security. Grant Shapps,
:26:37. > :26:39.thank you. A challenging week for the Liberal
:26:40. > :26:43.Democrats with a local election campaign overshadowed by another row
:26:44. > :26:50.with the Conservatives about knife crime. Adam has spent the day with
:26:51. > :26:54.Nick Clegg on the campaign trail. How nice! Nick Clegg is taking me on
:26:55. > :26:57.a political mini break to the Cotswolds. Yes, we are getting the
:26:58. > :27:02.train. He wants to highlight what his party is doing in local
:27:03. > :27:07.government, and a personal passion of his in Europe. Graham Watson, the
:27:08. > :27:13.Lib Dem MEP for the south-west, has been running a campaign to have
:27:14. > :27:18.prunes recognised as a laxative. Is that Lib Dems battling for Britain
:27:19. > :27:21.in Europe? It is not our front page manifesto commitment! It is one of
:27:22. > :27:30.many things that Graham does, he does many other things. In fact, he
:27:31. > :27:34.is a good example of an MEP who took a pioneering role, for instance, in
:27:35. > :27:41.making sure... There is the proven world, but also the crime-fighting
:27:42. > :27:44.role. -- prune. He has done work to make sure that when British
:27:45. > :27:50.criminals flee justice, we can bring them back. And he has promoted
:27:51. > :27:54.prunes! First stop, a gorgeous country pub, but it turns out
:27:55. > :28:00.everyone is a journalist or a very on message activist. Dark days,
:28:01. > :28:05.being a Lib Dem in the last few years? Strangely not. If you find
:28:06. > :28:09.you are a Lib Dem deep down, you do not get that disheartened, because
:28:10. > :28:12.you know that, locally, you are doing so well for the people that
:28:13. > :28:18.you live next door to that, actually, I find I am almost
:28:19. > :28:22.impervious to what happens on a national level. I am mayor of
:28:23. > :28:26.Cirencester. Have you taken any leadership lessons from Nick Clegg,
:28:27. > :28:32.inspiring new in your leadership of Cirencester? I think what he has
:28:33. > :28:36.demonstrated his patience. It has been a tough time, he has taken a
:28:37. > :28:41.lot of flak, and as the mayor of a town, lots of people agree with you
:28:42. > :28:46.and a fair few don't. You are a full on mayor, he is just a Deputy Prime
:28:47. > :28:52.Minister, do you outrank him? I don't think so, he is in government,
:28:53. > :28:57.I am not. So our there any normal people in here? We are from
:28:58. > :29:04.Swindon, you cannot get more abnormal. Are you a big fan of his?
:29:05. > :29:09.No! What has he done wrong? I don't believe in his views at all. Where
:29:10. > :29:18.has he got to? Nigel Farage would have had a pint! At this time in the
:29:19. > :29:22.morning a copy was more appropriate. I have no time for a drink of any
:29:23. > :29:26.kind, because now we are off to look at a local traffic blackspot. This
:29:27. > :29:33.is amazing, like a Lib Dem election leaflet brought to life, Lib Dems
:29:34. > :29:37.pointing at a road. High-vis jackets! Next we had to giggle full
:29:38. > :29:42.bath, but there will be no Regency sightseeing for us, oh no, Nick is
:29:43. > :29:52.taking us to an abandoned wilderness. We have just had a
:29:53. > :29:56.health and safety briefing, we have been told to look out for
:29:57. > :30:01.dive-bombing seagulls and an angry fox. That is the sort of thing Nick
:30:02. > :30:06.Clegg has to put up with. He wants to talk about the economy but he has
:30:07. > :30:11.to dodge the day's beat new story, letters leaked by a Tory suggesting
:30:12. > :30:22.that Lib Dems are soft on knife crime. Isn't that a new kind of
:30:23. > :30:26.warfare? I just think it is silly. They may think they are clever by
:30:27. > :30:36.catching some headlines but they are not helping people who worry about
:30:37. > :30:41.knife crime, like I do. We work together... Just like the
:30:42. > :30:46.Coalition! This is a co-working space where different businesses
:30:47. > :30:52.share the same office. My time with the Deputy Prime Minister is drawing
:30:53. > :30:55.to a close. We haven't talked about the most important story of the
:30:56. > :31:03.week, that you were voted the best looking party leader and the most
:31:04. > :31:07.likely to be a good cook. Right, this is news to me and I can
:31:08. > :31:13.guarantee you that my scepticism of opinion polls has just been
:31:14. > :31:18.confirmed. Just as well because the more serious polls don't look great
:31:19. > :31:25.for him or his party. Goodbye, and thanks for the offer of a ride
:31:26. > :31:31.home! He is still walking. Malcolm Bruce
:31:32. > :31:36.joins us now. According to Lib Dem briefing documents, you are likely
:31:37. > :31:41.to choose -- lose a big chunk of your MEPs. If you lose a lot, what
:31:42. > :31:45.would that say about a party that boasts of its pro-Europe
:31:46. > :31:52.credentials? It would be disappointing because we have the
:31:53. > :31:58.most hard-working MEPs. The worry that we have is that people think
:31:59. > :32:06.the European Parliament is not important but it takes decisions
:32:07. > :32:09.that affect us. They would be disappointing for Britain as well as
:32:10. > :32:14.the Liberal Democrats. Isn't the problem that the more you bang on
:32:15. > :32:20.about your pro-European credentials, the more you slip in the polls? I do
:32:21. > :32:27.think so, we have two weeks to go and
:32:28. > :32:34.think so, we have two weeks to go hard. You are forced in the polls. I
:32:35. > :32:37.can tell you there are people out there who do believe Britain should
:32:38. > :32:43.stay in the EU and they are worried that other parties will take us out.
:32:44. > :32:49.The Liberal Democrats are clear, we want to stay in, we will work for
:32:50. > :32:53.reform and do it effectively. If you lose the Liberal Democrats,
:32:54. > :32:59.Britain's influence in Europe will be weakened. Your track record in
:33:00. > :33:04.Europe shows you have been spectacularly wrong again and again.
:33:05. > :33:11.In your 2009 manifesto you said the European Central Bank and the euro
:33:12. > :33:15.have been tried and tested over ten years providing a clear picture of
:33:16. > :33:20.the benefits of Eurozone membership and that proved to be nonsense. It
:33:21. > :33:25.was nonsense everywhere. Every developed bank in the world was
:33:26. > :33:32.tried and tested and failed. Europe may not be perfect, but the question
:33:33. > :33:37.people have to decide is if we are going to leave Europe and be
:33:38. > :33:43.isolated on RM, or use our influence to reform it from inside. We have
:33:44. > :33:50.allies, you work with them, that is something the Lib Dems do better
:33:51. > :33:55.than any other parties. Your 2004 manifesto, you claim that being
:33:56. > :34:00.outside the euro would lead to job losses and reduced prosperity. You
:34:01. > :34:06.were just plain wrong, weren't you? Yes, but the reason is that to some
:34:07. > :34:14.extent the euro did not observe any rules and regulations when it was
:34:15. > :34:18.set up. That is why we never recommended Britain should join at
:34:19. > :34:26.the outset because the criteria had not been met. In 2001 Nick Clegg was
:34:27. > :34:31.writing to the Financial Times... Your track record is important. He
:34:32. > :34:36.wrote that the Tisch monetary policy is not all it is cracked up to be.
:34:37. > :34:43.Britain would gain greater control over its affairs by joining the
:34:44. > :34:51.euro. How wrong can he be? We have always argued that the currency had
:34:52. > :34:55.to abide by strict criteria. It hasn't done so and that is one of
:34:56. > :35:02.the reasons it has failed. We recognise there is no future for
:35:03. > :35:10.Britain joining the euro and we are not advocating it. Lets put your
:35:11. > :35:15.2010 manifesto on the screen. I didn't say it was not our long-term
:35:16. > :35:19.interest. If Europe succeeds as an entity, if the euro becomes one of
:35:20. > :35:28.the world leading currencies, there will come a point when it may be
:35:29. > :35:34.justified. In the circumstances we are in the moment, there is no
:35:35. > :35:39.recommended timescale. Let's get this right. Despite the Eurozone
:35:40. > :35:44.crisis which has cost millions of jobs, countries that were teetering
:35:45. > :35:48.on the brink of bankruptcy, the Eurozone now facing stagnation and
:35:49. > :35:54.some countries on the brink of deflation, you still won't rule out
:35:55. > :35:59.Britain joining? We are ruling it out in the foreseeable future. You
:36:00. > :36:03.can miss the point that we are working as a coalition partner in
:36:04. > :36:07.government that has secured recovery for the UK, and working as Liberal
:36:08. > :36:12.Democrats in the parliament that have cut back the European budget in
:36:13. > :36:19.cooperation with others. What would the world look like if it were right
:36:20. > :36:25.for Britain to join the euro? You have 27 states at the moment, with
:36:26. > :36:29.too many countries still struggling to meet the criteria so until you
:36:30. > :36:33.have a strong and cohesive enough single Eurozone in which all the
:36:34. > :36:40.countries can meet that criteria, Britain is better off out. So a more
:36:41. > :36:46.centralised Eurozone, that is what you would like Britain to join? No,
:36:47. > :36:49.because it can only happen by consent. Any circumstances in which
:36:50. > :36:58.any further powers would be transferred from the UK to the EU,
:36:59. > :37:01.we would support a referendum. You have just said that for the Eurozone
:37:02. > :37:06.to work, it has to be more centralised and you said if that
:37:07. > :37:10.happens, that is what Britain would join. I didn't say that, I said it
:37:11. > :37:18.would require the consent of all member states to agree to the
:37:19. > :37:22.criteria. We certainly do not envisage joining in the foreseeable
:37:23. > :37:31.future. Since you are the proud party of in, why weren't you just
:37:32. > :37:35.give us a referendum on in or out? Because it has to have a context.
:37:36. > :37:40.What David Cameron is doing is dangerous because I think the major
:37:41. > :37:44.players like Britain and France are not keen on the idea of being
:37:45. > :37:48.bullied into reforms on the instigation of just one member state
:37:49. > :37:56.which is threatening possibility to withdraw. They will have to agree to
:37:57. > :38:01.rules... Just have it now. Do you want in or out? To have a referendum
:38:02. > :38:07.against no background is to put it out of context. We are in the middle
:38:08. > :38:15.of a crisis, a year away from the general election. We have made it
:38:16. > :38:21.clear... You said we are in the middle of the Eurozone crisis? So we
:38:22. > :38:25.are not in the middle of it? What's the middle? The reality is that the
:38:26. > :38:30.Western world has gone through a deep crisis. The UK is coming out of
:38:31. > :38:35.it, the Eurozone is coming out of it. Greece have been able to borrow
:38:36. > :38:40.on the markets in recent weeks which is a sign of success. It is in our
:38:41. > :38:43.interest is the Eurozone succeeds and recovers and we should be part
:38:44. > :38:49.of it but not necessarily on the same conditions as everyone else.
:38:50. > :38:52.The Liberal Democrats work with others to deliver Britain's
:38:53. > :38:59.interests and if they are not there, their interests will be undermined.
:39:00. > :39:01.You are watching Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland
:39:02. > :39:15.Hello. You are watching the Sunday now.
:39:16. > :39:21.Hello. You are watching the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire
:39:22. > :39:25.and the North Midlands. Coming up, we find out why there are calls for
:39:26. > :39:31.voters to be given more powers to sack MPs who behave badly. Let's say
:39:32. > :39:41.hello to our guests today. Alec Shelbrooke, and John Mann. Hello to
:39:42. > :39:46.you both. We are talking about MPs behaving badly. You said this week
:39:47. > :39:52.that sexual harassment that `` at Westminster is a significant
:39:53. > :39:57.problem. What is your evidence? What I say and what I have seen. It has
:39:58. > :40:01.been there a long time and is not as bad as it was, but has not gone
:40:02. > :40:06.away. The problem is exacerbated because there is no system for
:40:07. > :40:10.dealing with it. People don't know where to go so people get away with
:40:11. > :40:17.stuff that is a bit dodgy and they can carry on. What sort of things
:40:18. > :40:21.are you talking about? I am not commenting about people's general
:40:22. > :40:27.behaviour, who is doing what with whom. This is about misuse of
:40:28. > :40:32.power, people misusing power concerns me. That is a problem that
:40:33. > :40:41.has existed and still does. Is that your experience, Alec Shelbrooke, of
:40:42. > :40:44.life at Westminster, ? It is not my experience but I think that people
:40:45. > :40:49.who work with MPs should be able to report them to an HR department. It
:40:50. > :40:55.is a peculiar setup in Westminster of quite unprofessional ways in,
:40:56. > :41:00.being crammed into tiny offices with a group of people reporting just to
:41:01. > :41:05.the MP. I think there is a need to professionalise it not of the way
:41:06. > :41:08.the place works. Some would say the resignation of
:41:09. > :41:10.the Newark MP Patrick Mercer this week over a cash`for`questions
:41:11. > :41:13.scandal has further dented the battered reputation of parliament.
:41:14. > :41:17.Voters in his constituency will however get the chance to elect a
:41:18. > :41:20.new MP in a by`election. But in most cases voters have no power
:41:21. > :41:27.whatsoever to sack their MP if they've misbehaved and many believe
:41:28. > :41:34.that should change. Here's Sharon Edwards.
:41:35. > :41:36.The recent resignation of Maria Miller over her expenses claims
:41:37. > :41:43.brought back bitter memories for many voters. It is five years since
:41:44. > :41:46.the expenses scandal first rocked Westminster when it was revealed
:41:47. > :41:49.that some MPs had claimed four moats, duck houses and, in the case
:41:50. > :42:00.of former Scunthorpe MP Elliot Morley, thousands of pounds for a
:42:01. > :42:03.mortgage that did not exist. So do the people of Scunthorpe believe the
:42:04. > :42:09.politicians have cleaned up their act? I think they are all out to
:42:10. > :42:13.feather their own nests. I think there should be more transparency in
:42:14. > :42:16.their spending. Anybody that works has to account for everything,
:42:17. > :42:23.expenses, fuel etc, why should they be any different? Crooked. Yeah,
:42:24. > :42:29.corrupt and crooked. We are paying for everything. They get away with
:42:30. > :42:32.it. The government recently shelved plans to introduce a power of recall
:42:33. > :42:40.where voters could be given the power to sack their MP. But a
:42:41. > :42:46.campaign led by conservative Zac Goldsmith aims to force the issue
:42:47. > :42:50.back onto the political agenda. I think it is time that we put power
:42:51. > :42:53.back in the hands of citizens who elect us for five`year terms, which
:42:54. > :42:57.is a long time, which is something I don't actually support. So I think
:42:58. > :43:00.if MPs have done wrong or they have failed their constituents, there
:43:01. > :43:04.needs to be a mechanism to allow members of public to recall their
:43:05. > :43:08.members of Parliament. The latest proposal suggests a system where a
:43:09. > :43:10.petition signed by at least 20% of the electorate in a constituency
:43:11. > :43:20.would trigger a referendum on the future of an MP. If more than half
:43:21. > :43:26.of voters support the recall of the MP, then a by`election would have to
:43:27. > :43:30.be called. I think there are a lot of MPs who worked incredibly hard
:43:31. > :43:34.and do a very, very good job for their constituency. This is not
:43:35. > :43:38.about saying that all MPs are bad. It is saying that there needs to be
:43:39. > :43:43.a safety valve in our political system that where there is an issue,
:43:44. > :43:45.voters can have a say. At the moment, if there is a scandal,
:43:46. > :43:48.whether about expenses, Douglas Hogg's moat, or Patrick Mercer's
:43:49. > :43:55.lobbying, political parties can have a say, they can withdraw the whip.
:43:56. > :43:58.`` Patrick Mercer and lobbying. Parliament can have an enquiry and
:43:59. > :44:01.reach a conclusion about appropriate sanctions. But the voters of the
:44:02. > :44:06.constituency are left out of that process entirely. Opinion polls
:44:07. > :44:11.suggest that the reputation of MPs has improved little since the
:44:12. > :44:21.expenses scandal. Many believe Parliament could do more to put its
:44:22. > :44:26.house in order. John Mann, do voters need to be
:44:27. > :44:32.given the power of recall and sack MPs who behave badly? Of course they
:44:33. > :44:37.should. There is a word for it, democracy. It has been lacking. If
:44:38. > :44:40.Patrick Mercer had been suspended, he has been suspended for six
:44:41. > :44:44.months, if he hadn't resigned, people of new work would not have
:44:45. > :44:51.had an MP for six months. That is nonsensical. The Coalition
:44:52. > :44:54.Government promised us this, they said it would happen before the next
:44:55. > :45:01.election, but they have dropped the plans? Are you running scared? It is
:45:02. > :45:06.a mystery to me why it was dropped. It was in the manifesto and I
:45:07. > :45:11.supported. Exactly what John said. It is unreasonable to expect an MP
:45:12. > :45:15.who get sanctioned by the health authorities, get suspended, could
:45:16. > :45:21.carry on in that seat. The game is up. Go and have a referendum, have
:45:22. > :45:24.the right of recall. There are all sorts of questions which need to be
:45:25. > :45:29.cleared up. Parliament would like the commission to look into MPs. The
:45:30. > :45:33.fact that the standards commission and Parliament was saying perhaps
:45:34. > :45:40.Maria Miller does not need to playback `` payback ?45,000...
:45:41. > :45:48.45,000? It is an enormous sum of money! It was a number of weeks
:45:49. > :45:52.before she did it. And I disagreed. I think it is absolutely right that
:45:53. > :46:00.there should be some sort of right to recall in those situations. John
:46:01. > :46:07.Mann, a `` are you prepared to support that Goldsmith? I will and I
:46:08. > :46:11.think it is needed. Maria Miller should be out there. The people of
:46:12. > :46:18.Basingstoke added big public meeting. They want a say. They want
:46:19. > :46:25.a chance to vote her out. They should have that right. It is five
:46:26. > :46:29.years on from the expensive scandal, before you went to Parliament. How
:46:30. > :46:35.do you improve the image of parliament? People still think you
:46:36. > :46:41.are a bunch of crooks. The relationship is broken. You need to
:46:42. > :46:47.try to let people have a say when something has gone wrong. You are
:46:48. > :46:51.dreaming if there is `` if you think there is something that we can do
:46:52. > :46:56.where people will think that politicians are not just out to help
:46:57. > :47:00.them in pockets. We can give more power to people but don't think they
:47:01. > :47:06.will think differently from now. How would you improve the image, John
:47:07. > :47:09.Mann? As every MP had said, it is answering the questions that people
:47:10. > :47:12.like yourself ask! But even with that people like yourself ask! But
:47:13. > :47:19.even without, it will take a long time to heal this relationship. Do
:47:20. > :47:23.you have a moat? It is difficult to get a moat around a terraced house.
:47:24. > :47:26.Campaigning is under way for the European elections which take place
:47:27. > :47:29.on May 22nd. With Britain's future in Europe the subject of much
:47:30. > :47:32.debate, Len Tingle has been back to a West Yorkshire village which held
:47:33. > :47:42.its own referendum on whether we should remain part of the EU.
:47:43. > :47:44.The mighty European Union. 28 countries, half a billion
:47:45. > :47:52.population, breathtakingly grand institutional buildings and ?120
:47:53. > :47:54.billion annual budget. The parish of Crigglestone. Five
:47:55. > :48:05.small villages, 9000 population, turn`of`the`century parish hall and
:48:06. > :48:09.an annual budget of just ?14,000. `` ?40,000. But back in 2007, a chunk
:48:10. > :48:12.of that budget had to be spent holding a local referendum on the
:48:13. > :48:16.question of whether we really should be part of the European Union. So
:48:17. > :48:19.why is it that it tiny little place like this was holding a referendum
:48:20. > :48:21.on EU mothership at all? Well, it was because anti`European Union
:48:22. > :48:28.campaigners spotted a loophole in the 1972 Local Government Act. It
:48:29. > :48:31.said that if ten people, just ten, signed a petition, then they could
:48:32. > :48:39.force the parish council to hold a referendum on any subject at all.
:48:40. > :48:43.And that subject was sparked by the then Labour Prime Minister Gordon
:48:44. > :48:46.Brown. He joined other prime ministers and presidents and signed
:48:47. > :48:51.a new agreement on how the European Union should be governed and grow.
:48:52. > :48:57.But he refused to hold a national referendum on the issue. And that is
:48:58. > :49:00.where Crigglestone came in. One of five tiny parishes across England
:49:01. > :49:03.where angry opponents of the European Union forced their own
:49:04. > :49:09.referendums to be held to put the issue into the national headlines.
:49:10. > :49:12.The driving force behind the controversial moves to force the
:49:13. > :49:18.parish to hold a referendum was former Olympic rower Alex Story. He
:49:19. > :49:24.was then prospective Conservative Party candidate for the constituency
:49:25. > :49:29.of Wakefield. `` the year respective Conservative Party `` the
:49:30. > :49:32.Eurosceptic. At the time, he denied it was a political stunt and a waste
:49:33. > :49:36.of time. Despite the Conservatives campaigning hard, only around 500
:49:37. > :49:39.bothered to vote, less than 10%. But of those that did, an overwhelming
:49:40. > :49:43.majority backed what was in effect a call for an immediate national
:49:44. > :49:48.referendum on our EU membership. An issue that clearly hasn't gone away.
:49:49. > :49:54.We want to govern our own country, make our own laws, control our own
:49:55. > :49:57.borders... Nigel Farage's UKIP were not part of that referendum seven
:49:58. > :50:05.years ago, but they did use the same loophole in other similar parish
:50:06. > :50:08.referendums across the country. And on a far larger stage, Nigel Farage
:50:09. > :50:15.was beating the same drum at his launch of this year's election
:50:16. > :50:18.campaign in Sheffield. In fact, only the Liberal Democrats are ruling out
:50:19. > :50:27.any sort of referendum on UK membership. We need to vote to get
:50:28. > :50:30.Labour candidates in the town halls and Labour MPs in the European
:50:31. > :50:33.Parliament. Labour launched its campaign in Dewsbury this week and
:50:34. > :50:35.even as its candidates highlighted the importance of its membership,
:50:36. > :50:44.one senior Labour MP, Bassetlaw's John Mann, was urging the party to
:50:45. > :50:47.set up a date for a referendum. And as for the Conservatives, Alex Story
:50:48. > :50:52.is now one of its candidates for the European elections. With the
:50:53. > :50:57.leadership flatly denying it has a problem with the issue of a
:50:58. > :51:00.referendum. We passed a law that gives this country a referendum
:51:01. > :51:04.lock. No more powers going over to Brussels without a referendum for
:51:05. > :51:06.the British people. So, almost seven years on, should that tiny
:51:07. > :51:18.Crigglestone referendum be reassessed? A political stunt, or a
:51:19. > :51:23.trailblazer? We have also been joined by Julio
:51:24. > :51:28.Gash. She is an award`winning entrepreneur from Sheffield. Ten
:51:29. > :51:32.years ago, you stood as a Lib Dem candidate in the European elections.
:51:33. > :51:37.Why do you think that we have become more Eurosceptic in the last decade?
:51:38. > :51:41.I think there are issues which have not been answered by national
:51:42. > :51:45.politicians and by European politicians. We need answers and
:51:46. > :51:49.those answers are not thinking indicated clearly. As such, it is
:51:50. > :51:56.allowing an open field for like Nigel Farage. What sort of questions
:51:57. > :52:02.are you talking about? Questions like, how is Europe run? It is very
:52:03. > :52:11.very, very opaque. I was saying this ten years ago, people are not
:52:12. > :52:17.knowing what is going on. It allows people to fill the vacuum and bring
:52:18. > :52:26.in scare stories. Where there are gaps in people's knowledge, there is
:52:27. > :52:36.fear. You had a referendum, what were the results? 50% to leave the
:52:37. > :52:40.EU, some don't knows. That is similar to a survey I had six or
:52:41. > :52:46.seven years ago. That was not overall in favour. The consistency
:52:47. > :52:51.there `` there is consistency there. The issue that emerges is
:52:52. > :52:57.immigration. We shouldn't hide away from it. The issue on the doorstep
:52:58. > :53:00.is not that power of its power, a minority are interested in that. It
:53:01. > :53:06.is about immigration, people feeling that there is too much. David
:53:07. > :53:11.Cameron has been all over the TV and the newspapers talking about
:53:12. > :53:19.immigration. Is he running scared of UKIP? Not at all. He has said that
:53:20. > :53:23.we will have an in out referendum if there is a Conservative majority
:53:24. > :53:30.after the next election. We brought forward air a `` a bill about having
:53:31. > :53:36.a referendum which was defeated. But all the issues we are talking about
:53:37. > :53:41.boil down to the fact whether people want to be in and out of Europe. We
:53:42. > :53:46.should look at the Scottish referendum, things which now have
:53:47. > :53:50.front`page coverage. It ties into the argument that area is not
:53:51. > :53:53.explored, stories are not explain. When you have a referendum, when
:53:54. > :53:58.there is something coming around the corner, all sides of the argument
:53:59. > :54:01.put forward. That is very important on its own. So do you welcome
:54:02. > :54:08.Cameron Potter promise of a referendum? Not necessarily, and the
:54:09. > :54:12.example of Crigglestone shows why this is the case. You get people
:54:13. > :54:19.with extreme views who will manipulate it for their own agenda
:54:20. > :54:25.`` agenda. People did not turn up and it was a very costly exercise.
:54:26. > :54:29.We work for people at a local level and an international level. I don't
:54:30. > :54:33.think that a referendum what's all that is you. Politicians are
:54:34. > :54:38.accountable for communicating on all issues, national or European. They
:54:39. > :54:41.do not. Immigration is an issue which has not been debated but a
:54:42. > :54:46.referendum is not the place for that. John Mann, you have written to
:54:47. > :54:53.your party leader demanding a referendum. Why do think he is
:54:54. > :54:57.wrong? Advising politely! I am in favour of having that debate is
:54:58. > :55:05.separate from elections. The problem is this. The Tories say they want a
:55:06. > :55:10.referendum, but on what? They want a more flexible labour market, more
:55:11. > :55:15.zero hours contracts and more agency workers. That is exactly what is
:55:16. > :55:20.fuelling the debate. People want less agencies, no zero hour
:55:21. > :55:24.contracts. They don't want this flexible labour market and neither
:55:25. > :55:27.do why. That is their big problem with immigration. People have
:55:28. > :55:34.nothing against Eastern Europeans, they just think that it is driving
:55:35. > :55:39.down jobs and wages. My job, my wages. Agencies are undermining that
:55:40. > :55:44.more. Cameron and UKIP want more of it. What Cameron should do is get
:55:45. > :55:53.that sorted and the public would say, good on you. I will let Alec
:55:54. > :55:58.Shelbrooke answer that. If you look at our plans, we want to renegotiate
:55:59. > :56:03.border controls. We don't deserve free movement of trade, we have free
:56:04. > :56:10.movement of people moving to enjoy benefits. That leads to immigration
:56:11. > :56:14.becoming a problem. It is 5% on average, in my constituency of
:56:15. > :56:19.people I speak to, so it is not a scientific poll, say that they went
:56:20. > :56:24.into a common market and they want a common market. They don't want
:56:25. > :56:28.federalisation. Whatever the discussion is, whatever happens, the
:56:29. > :56:34.British people are not going to be satisfied until they are given a
:56:35. > :56:38.choice of in or out. Julio Gash? I think the issue of immigration and
:56:39. > :56:42.jobs is a bit of a funny one because at the end of the day, what will
:56:43. > :56:46.happen if we are not in Europe, what will happen to the factories which
:56:47. > :56:50.are supposedly employing all these immigrants? Where are they going to
:56:51. > :56:54.find the people to fill those jobs would be productivity level and the
:56:55. > :57:00.wage level? Were there be in this country or will this companies
:57:01. > :57:03.relocate `` will those companies relocate to Poland? You have to see
:57:04. > :57:09.to businesses as to how they would respond. Briefly, I would say that
:57:10. > :57:12.is an argument in favour of staying. None of these arguments will come to
:57:13. > :57:17.the fork until there is a referendum about in or out. How do you get
:57:18. > :57:24.people in places like Sheffield to love Europe? Being at the heart of
:57:25. > :57:29.Europe means jobs. We need to export to Europe, it is our biggest market.
:57:30. > :57:33.We need to make an export things that is what makes Yorkshire great.
:57:34. > :57:36.That is what makes Britain great. I'll be hosting a radio debate on
:57:37. > :57:38.the European elections, with some of the candidates standing in the
:57:39. > :57:42.Yorkshire and Humber region. That will be on Thursday lunchtime from
:57:43. > :57:45.12 noon on BBC Radio Humberside, BBC Radio Leeds, BBC Radio Sheffield and
:57:46. > :57:54.BBC Radio York. Tweet me at iredalepolitics if you want to put
:57:55. > :57:56.question to the candidates. Again that's the Yorkshire and Humber
:57:57. > :57:59.debate from 12 noon on Thursday. Let's get some more of the week's
:58:00. > :58:04.political news now. Louise Martin has our round`up in 60 seconds.
:58:05. > :58:07.Skipton Conservative MP Julian Smith blasted a quarter of Yorkshire's MPs
:58:08. > :58:13.who either voted against HS2 or failed to vote at all. He says that
:58:14. > :58:15.the county is in danger of overlooking a phenomenal
:58:16. > :58:18.opportunity, a ?50 billion scheme which the Shadow Transport Secretary
:58:19. > :58:25.and Wakefield MP Mary Cray said the Labour Party would back, but with
:58:26. > :58:29.caveats. There is no blank cheque. The biggest risk to the project is
:58:30. > :58:32.political, political delay. Further prayers were said for the
:58:33. > :58:37.family of Ann McGuire, the Leeds teacher who was killed on Monday. ``
:58:38. > :58:38.will be said today. Praise was poured on the dedication of the
:58:39. > :58:46.loving teacher and Christi which she helped to create.
:58:47. > :58:49.Firefighters across Yorkshire have been taking strike action this
:58:50. > :58:54.weekend as part of a long`running dispute over pensions. The Fire
:58:55. > :58:57.Brigades' Union members walked out over changes to pensions and their
:58:58. > :59:08.retirement age. The government claims that firefighters have a
:59:09. > :59:12.generous pension scheme. Alec Shelbrooke, you'll Conservative
:59:13. > :59:19.colleague, Julian Smith, says Yorkshire people are not in the zest
:59:20. > :59:22.enough about HS2. I think he said Yorkshire MPs are not enthusiastic
:59:23. > :59:30.enough. Some others abstained on Monday night. It is important
:59:31. > :59:35.project for the city of lead but it cannot be built on the backs of
:59:36. > :59:40.hard`working people's losing equity `` loss of equity in their houses.
:59:41. > :59:45.The government has moved from where it was not far enough. Therefore, it
:59:46. > :59:51.was not enough to vote down, but it was not enough metres aborted. John
:59:52. > :59:55.Mann, you are sceptical and HS2? I'm not bothered about houses in the
:59:56. > :59:59.Cotswolds. I want all the contracts going to British companies to do the
:00:00. > :00:03.manufacturing and building. That is not in there, I want that built`in,
:00:04. > :00:07.that every single job that comes from this will go into British
:00:08. > :00:12.workers including in the North of England, including Bassetlaw. So why
:00:13. > :00:17.did 15 Yorkshire MPs at staying on that vote? Surely you should have
:00:18. > :00:26.put your money where your mouth is? I have. I have said exactly why I
:00:27. > :00:31.will support the Project for Leeds. I will wait until it is good for my
:00:32. > :00:35.constituency, I couldn't care less about the Cotswolds. M Stich runs
:00:36. > :00:38.have seen their houses devastated and until there is a compensation
:00:39. > :00:43.package in place, I cannot bring myself to say yes to this. It was
:00:44. > :00:47.just phase one, but it is important that we get these things right at
:00:48. > :00:52.the start so that when the project comes along, people are not losing
:00:53. > :00:58.out. Do you think people are confused on Labour's position on
:00:59. > :01:01.this? There were discouraging noises from Ed Balls. Now Mary Cray says
:01:02. > :01:08.she's behind the project. We don't know Labour stands. I think Ed
:01:09. > :01:12.Miliband has been clear all along. He is in favour of it and he wants
:01:13. > :01:15.to make sure that British jobs are created from it and the contracts
:01:16. > :01:19.will go to British companies. If that happens, the Labour Party will
:01:20. > :01:25.be totally unified. Do you think your government can when people
:01:26. > :01:30.around? I think what is important is closing down the North`South divide.
:01:31. > :01:35.As the HS2 as important project to do that. The infrastructure for
:01:36. > :01:38.transport in Leeds is nowhere near as good as elsewhere. The government
:01:39. > :01:42.says that billions will be invested bringing the railway line to Leeds.
:01:43. > :01:47.We have to support that that we have to make sure that is done correctly
:01:48. > :01:52.and fairly and in the right way. You are confident, John Mann, that, ``
:01:53. > :01:57.that investment in these codes mainline will not suffer? I am
:01:58. > :02:03.already well on the case to insure that investment on the East Coast
:02:04. > :02:06.railway line, all the lines across to the HS2, will not suffer.
:02:07. > :02:07.That's about it from us. Thanks to our guests today John Mann
:02:08. > :02:10.That's about it from us. Thanks to our guests today John Mann and Alec
:02:11. > :02:11.Shelbrooke. Now let's go back to Andrew Neil
:02:12. > :02:17.Welcome back. Now, the Government is not very good at predicting the
:02:18. > :02:20.future. That's according to a report from a committee of MPs this morning
:02:21. > :02:22.who say that its Horizon Scanning programme that's supposed to
:02:23. > :02:25.identify potential threats, risks, emerging issues and opportunities
:02:26. > :02:32.isn't much good at reading the tea leaves. But can it really be any
:02:33. > :02:34.worse than our panel? Here they are predicting the future of then
:02:35. > :02:45.culture secretary Maria Miller before Easter.
:02:46. > :02:50.Can she survive? I'm getting out of the prediction game after I said
:02:51. > :02:56.Nick Clegg would win the debates. But I almost think she might. If
:02:57. > :03:02.there is a big event that moves this off the front pages. David Cameron
:03:03. > :03:09.will want to keep Maria Miller until at least his summary shuffle. I
:03:10. > :03:15.think they will get rid of her. I think they will do the decent thing
:03:16. > :03:21.after exhausting all other options. Maria Miller resigned a few days
:03:22. > :03:27.later of course! The best and the brightest, when did that slip in?
:03:28. > :03:31.This week it will be exactly a year until the General Election, so what
:03:32. > :03:40.better time to get our panel to gaze into their crystal balls again.
:03:41. > :03:46.What's the outcome of the election in 2015? I'm going to go with the
:03:47. > :03:52.polls and say Ed Miliband as the Prime Minister. But the polls are
:03:53. > :04:00.only a snapshot of opinion now, you think they will be the same in a
:04:01. > :04:05.year? No, I think they will narrow. I think UKIP's vote share will fall.
:04:06. > :04:10.I think they are currently coasting on a high and that will tailor way
:04:11. > :04:21.so they won't take as many votes off the Tories. Labour with a majority
:04:22. > :04:27.or is the largest party. Another liberal Conservative coalition, and
:04:28. > :04:31.I say that because he is already in touching distance of Labour. I don't
:04:32. > :04:37.think UKIP will get 15, maybe half of that, and most of the votes they
:04:38. > :04:41.lose will either not vote at all go to the Tories and that should be
:04:42. > :04:46.enough to be the biggest party in a hung parliament I don't envisage a
:04:47. > :04:51.Tory majority. I am also going to go with the polls. For Ed Miliband to
:04:52. > :04:58.be hoping to win at this stage, he has got to be way ahead in the
:04:59. > :05:03.polls. Labour needs to be much further ahead if he is going to win
:05:04. > :05:07.so David Cameron, probably the leader of the largest party. Last
:05:08. > :05:11.time after the election David Cameron went to the 1922 committee
:05:12. > :05:15.and announced he was Prime Minister as head of the Coalition. He has
:05:16. > :05:19.agreed this time he will consult them and it will be much more
:05:20. > :05:25.difficult for him to get a coalition. People at home have now
:05:26. > :05:31.concluded there will be a Liberal Democrat landslide! Are we going to
:05:32. > :05:37.have debates? Yes, probably further away from polling day then last
:05:38. > :05:43.time. That is the Liberal Democrat point, isn't it? Yes, it sucks all
:05:44. > :05:48.the life out of the campaign, so the last six weeks will be left to
:05:49. > :05:53.traditional campaigning. What did you make of this in the Sunday Times
:05:54. > :06:01.this morning, this two, three, five formula. There should be a Cameron,
:06:02. > :06:14.Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg debate, then there should be another one with
:06:15. > :06:20.them and UKIP and the Greens. It might be testing the patience of the
:06:21. > :06:24.nation to tune into all of those. If you're going to say Nigel Farage
:06:25. > :06:29.should be there, the Green party should be too. They know that as
:06:30. > :06:37.soon as you put them on a podium next to them, he looks like he has
:06:38. > :06:41.equal stature and that is a problem. David Cameron does not want the
:06:42. > :06:46.debates to happen on the way they happened last time. It is generally
:06:47. > :06:49.regarded, Lynton Crosby believes they were a disaster for David
:06:50. > :06:56.Cameron because they allowed Nick Clegg to be the fresh person. He
:06:57. > :07:00.knows he cannot say no to them so the moment you see David Cameron
:07:01. > :07:05.suggesting that Caroline Lucas should be in the debate, you know he
:07:06. > :07:09.is not serious. What he will try to do is have more debates, have them
:07:10. > :07:12.outside the main part of the general election so that it doesn't
:07:13. > :07:20.dominate. The problem the David Cameron is that the campaign will be
:07:21. > :07:24.much longer. It is a five-week campaign so it is quite difficult
:07:25. > :07:28.for him to say we will only have one debate in that campaign. I think
:07:29. > :07:33.smother it with love, hopefully it will go to the courts for him and
:07:34. > :07:38.hopefully they will never happen and he will be delighted. The European
:07:39. > :07:43.election and the local elections are coming up. The three mainstream
:07:44. > :07:49.parties are saying it is a flash in the pan, they don't really matter
:07:50. > :07:53.and so on, but if UKIP comes a strong first, if Labour comes a poor
:07:54. > :07:59.second and the Tories come a poor third, it will have consequences for
:08:00. > :08:04.all three, and the Lib Dems come forth or even fish. It will have
:08:05. > :08:08.consequences and not just in the media but on the ground. One of the
:08:09. > :08:14.big stories is what will happen to the Lib Dems, they face losing all
:08:15. > :08:21.of their MEPs. A good result for them is lit -- in the local
:08:22. > :08:25.elections is losing 250 councillors. These are the most interesting
:08:26. > :08:31.elections we have had for some time. Are we heading for a Nick
:08:32. > :08:34.Clegg summer leadership crisis? I think we are heading towards
:08:35. > :08:39.reversing the clock back to where we were before the Eastleigh
:08:40. > :08:45.by-election. That quiet and things down for Nick Clegg. If they lose
:08:46. > :08:49.all their MEPs, and there is a real chance they will, Vince Cable will
:08:50. > :08:56.be out on manoeuvres because age is not on his side. If he can say Nick
:08:57. > :09:02.Clegg is a loser and a failure, he will be back. Will the Tories go
:09:03. > :09:18.into headless chicken mode if they come third? Yes, if UKIP come first
:09:19. > :09:24.there will not be as much panic as if Labour come first. Is Labour
:09:25. > :09:27.comes a poor second, will there be some pressure on Ed Miliband to
:09:28. > :09:33.reopen his attitude to the referendum? I don't think so and my
:09:34. > :09:37.colleague was talking to Labour sources who said he is absolutely
:09:38. > :09:41.not going to. That is something you can say definitely about him, he
:09:42. > :09:47.decides on a course and he sticks to it. There is one potential upside
:09:48. > :09:50.for David Cameron in a really bad Conservative results, it could
:09:51. > :09:54.strengthen his hand in the renegotiations of Britain's EU
:09:55. > :10:04.membership because he doesn't even need to say to Angela Merkel and
:10:05. > :10:07.Francois Hollande it is there. David Cameron hasn't just been fighting
:10:08. > :10:11.for his party into the local elections. He also got his knuckles
:10:12. > :10:15.wrapped by the Speaker, John Bercow, at Prime Minister's Question Time,
:10:16. > :10:22.for talking for too long. Take a look at this. There is a better
:10:23. > :10:27.future ahead of us but we must not go backward to the policies that put
:10:28. > :10:36.us in this mess in the first place. I don't know what they are paying
:10:37. > :10:50.him, Mr Speaker. Order, order. I haven't finished! In response to
:10:51. > :10:57.that question, the Prime Minister has finished and he can take it from
:10:58. > :11:02.me that he has finished. I can't remember a speaker ever speaking to
:11:03. > :11:07.a Prime Minister like that. Clearly in that case, John Bercow crossed a
:11:08. > :11:12.line. It is Prime Minister 's questions, he is entitled to answer
:11:13. > :11:17.the questions. There is really bad blood between those two, going back
:11:18. > :11:23.a long way. They hate each other and the worrying thing about that was
:11:24. > :11:29.the look of triumphalism on the speaker's face afterwards. He is a
:11:30. > :11:33.remarkable, revolutionary speaker who has made the House of Commons
:11:34. > :11:38.more relevant, he is holding the executive to account, but that look
:11:39. > :11:43.on his face showed he had crossed the line. Does he survive after the
:11:44. > :11:47.next election? He has improved the importance of the Commons, is that
:11:48. > :11:53.enough to keep him in the Speaker 's chair? The most public bit of the
:11:54. > :11:59.Commons is still the Prime Minister 's questions, and we can conclude
:12:00. > :12:06.that John Bercow's interventions take more time than any delays he
:12:07. > :12:15.complains about so I wouldn't be surprised if, in a few years' time,
:12:16. > :12:21.someone else replaces him. He is quite popular with Labour, is he
:12:22. > :12:26.not? Yes, he is married to a Labour activist and is notably sympathetic
:12:27. > :12:31.to Labour but I think this is a difficult situation. David Cameron
:12:32. > :12:37.also overstepped the line. As soon as the speaker says order, the idea
:12:38. > :12:42.is that the House was to order and David Cameron pushed him. They are
:12:43. > :12:46.both trying to score points off each other. We cover Prime Minister 's
:12:47. > :12:55.questions every week on the daily politics, and there is a danger that
:12:56. > :12:58.he sees it as an opportunity to do some grandstanding. You slightly
:12:59. > :13:02.sends his vanity gets the better of him. It is supposed to be Prime
:13:03. > :13:08.Minister 's questions. At the end of that session, the Speaker read out a
:13:09. > :13:13.statement from the Chief clerk, and immensely respected figure, saying
:13:14. > :13:18.he is taking early retirement. It is pretty clear that the reason he has
:13:19. > :13:20.decided to go early is because he is finding it tricky to maintain a
:13:21. > :13:25.cordial relationship with the speaker, and the speaker might want
:13:26. > :13:29.to think about his man management skills. That's all for today. The
:13:30. > :13:33.Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two at lunchtime from Tuesday
:13:34. > :13:36.onwards. Remember, it is a bank holiday tomorrow. I'll be back here
:13:37. > :13:37.at 11am next week. Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday
:13:38. > :13:42.Politics.