:00:35. > :00:39.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Walls are being
:00:40. > :00:42.re-painted in Belfast as Gerry Adams begins his fourth day in police
:00:43. > :00:46.custody in connection with one of the most brutal and shocking murders
:00:47. > :00:58.of the Troubles. That's our top story.
:00:59. > :01:01.He may have got egg on his face this week but Nigel Farage is a serious
:01:02. > :01:03.electoral threat in this month's elections. I'll ask the Conservative
:01:04. > :01:06.Party Chairman Grant Shapps how worried he is.
:01:07. > :01:11.And we're on the trail of Nick Clegg. You were voted the best
:01:12. > :01:22.Stay with us for the Sunday Politics likely to be a good
:01:23. > :01:25.Stay with us for the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. We
:01:26. > :01:26.find out why there are calls for voters
:01:27. > :01:29.in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. We find out why there are calls for
:01:30. > :01:30.voters to be given more power to sack badly
:01:31. > :01:37.debate what it means for London. And with me, as always, the best and
:01:38. > :01:40.the brightest political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis
:01:41. > :01:46.and Janan Ganesh. They'll be throwing metaphorical rotten eggs
:01:47. > :01:49.into the twittersphere. First this morning - Gerry Adams,
:01:50. > :01:52.President of Sinn Fein, has spent a fourth night in police custody after
:01:53. > :02:05.he was arrested in connection with the killing of Jean McConville more
:02:06. > :02:08.than 40 years ago. Sinn Fein has claimed that the arrest is
:02:09. > :02:11.politically motivated coming, as it does, during local and European
:02:12. > :02:13.election campaigns. Northern Ireland's deputy first minister,
:02:14. > :02:17.Martin McGuinness, has indicated he might review the party's support for
:02:18. > :02:19.policing in the province if Gerry Adams is charged. The Jean
:02:20. > :02:21.McConville murder was one of the most notorious cases of the
:02:22. > :02:26.Troubles. The widowed mother of ten was
:02:27. > :02:32.kidnapped from her home in December 1972, never to be seen alive again.
:02:33. > :02:38.The IRA denied involvement but in 1999 admitted it had murdered her
:02:39. > :02:44.and several others, known as the Disappeared. Before his death, the
:02:45. > :02:45.former IRA commander Brendan Hughes pointed the finger at Gerry Adams,
:02:46. > :03:00.claiming: In April this year, either Bell was
:03:01. > :03:09.charged with aiding and abetting the murder. -- Ivor Bell. Gerry Adams
:03:10. > :03:14.has always insisted he is innocent of any part in the abduction and
:03:15. > :03:18.killing all burial of Mrs McConville.
:03:19. > :03:21.We were hoping to speak to the Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa
:03:22. > :03:24.Villiers, but having agreed to do an interview with us this morning, she
:03:25. > :03:31.pulled out. But we are joined from Belfast by Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey.
:03:32. > :03:44.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. And the police just doing their job by
:03:45. > :03:48.questioning Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams said publicly some time ago that he
:03:49. > :03:53.was available to speak to the police, but that is not what this is
:03:54. > :03:57.about at the moment, because what we have here is clearly evidence in our
:03:58. > :04:02.mind of political interference in what should be due process. Gerry
:04:03. > :04:07.Adams made it clear some time ago he wanted to speak to the police, it
:04:08. > :04:13.was available at any time, and yet that request was not taken up until
:04:14. > :04:16.three weeks into an election and we believe that was deliberately
:04:17. > :04:22.orchestrated by a small number of people. What evidence can you
:04:23. > :04:29.present this morning that proves that claim? The direct circumstances
:04:30. > :04:37.Gerry Adams finds himself in at the moment, take that in stark contrast
:04:38. > :04:50.when they have dealt with members of the British Army for instance...
:04:51. > :04:55.That is just circumstantial. The PSNI know that the soldiers involved
:04:56. > :04:59.in that and a number of other high-profile killings of citizens
:05:00. > :05:07.here, and not one of those people has been arrested. In fact any of
:05:08. > :05:12.the people who were interviewed were interviewed by request. There was a
:05:13. > :05:21.stark contrast, in terms of how they have dealt with the British military
:05:22. > :05:26.involving state killings. We haven't got too much time. Sinn Fein said it
:05:27. > :05:32.would review its support for the PSNI if Gerry Adams is charged. That
:05:33. > :05:36.sounds like political interference in the police process. It's not
:05:37. > :05:42.because we have a clear mandate from the people who elect us. Policing
:05:43. > :05:50.has been an important part of the peace process here for many years,
:05:51. > :05:54.Sinn Fein plays an important role in local policing partnerships. We
:05:55. > :05:59.negotiate to make sure we have powers transferred here to elected
:06:00. > :06:06.representatives in the north. It is a long way to go before we have
:06:07. > :06:18.policing highly accountable, and making sure they deliver a very
:06:19. > :06:27.impartial service. How will he react if Gerry Adams is charged? I am
:06:28. > :06:32.still trying to get a clear answer. If Gerry Adams is charged, will you
:06:33. > :06:39.withdraw support for the Northern Ireland police service? We view this
:06:40. > :06:44.as a serious situation and a serious ongoing situation and we will
:06:45. > :06:49.monitor how this pans out. We have a very important role to play to
:06:50. > :06:56.support the police service here. We have done consistently, worked with
:06:57. > :06:59.them on a daily basis, but we will not accept political interference by
:07:00. > :07:06.a small number of people in the police who are undermining the
:07:07. > :07:12.police. We will not accept political policing. If there was evidence, and
:07:13. > :07:17.I emphasise the word if, because we have seen none, but if there were
:07:18. > :07:22.evidence to justify Gerry Adams being charged, why should he not be
:07:23. > :07:26.charged? It is my understanding from the family of Gerry Adams that there
:07:27. > :07:37.has not been a single shred of evidence put forward. I understand
:07:38. > :07:41.that, but if there was evidence, why should he not be charged? You put
:07:42. > :07:46.that caveat yourself and then you expect me to speculate, there is no
:07:47. > :07:49.way I will do that. The fact of the matter is there hasn't been one
:07:50. > :07:56.single shred of evidence put to Gerry Adams in the last few days, in
:07:57. > :07:59.fact what has been put to him is a range of issues of newspaper
:08:00. > :08:05.cuttings, books, statements made from people, including from people
:08:06. > :08:15.who didn't want their statements released until they have died.
:08:16. > :08:15.who didn't want their statements was charged, again I emphasise the
:08:16. > :08:26.word if, does the police process fall apart? The police process is a
:08:27. > :08:29.fragile entity, it requires work and we have been saying this publicly
:08:30. > :08:43.and privately with the Irish and British
:08:44. > :08:44.and privately with the Irish and process has to be nurtured and
:08:45. > :08:49.developed. We are not out of the woods yet. From a Republican point
:08:50. > :08:58.of view we have been working flat out. I just wanted a quick answer to
:08:59. > :09:02.my question, is a yes or no? What question I asking me? Is the peace
:09:03. > :09:07.process in jeopardy? It is fragile and I am not going to have words put
:09:08. > :09:14.into my mouth but I don't want to use. It has to be worked out and
:09:15. > :09:18.nurtured. Thank you for joining us. Nick Watt, you were a Northern
:09:19. > :09:25.Ireland correspondent like myself in days gone by. Where is this going to
:09:26. > :09:29.go? It shows how challenging the peace process is because on the one
:09:30. > :09:34.hand you have the unspeakable pain of the McConville family, but you
:09:35. > :09:38.also have the danger of not having mechanisms to deal with the past.
:09:39. > :09:42.South Africa is a good example, you have to have some mechanism to deal
:09:43. > :09:52.with the past because if you don't, you are going to have, as Sinn Fein
:09:53. > :09:58.have now, someone in a police cell but you don't have the arrests of
:09:59. > :10:06.the Bloody Sunday soldiers. Paramilitary prisoners were released
:10:07. > :10:11.after two years... We have seen no action against somebody accused of
:10:12. > :10:15.the Hyde Park bombings, it is not a one-way street. We have the
:10:16. > :10:23.decommissioning of IRA weapons by the IRA, therefore destroying
:10:24. > :10:27.crucial evidence. You have these inconsistencies because you don't
:10:28. > :10:32.have an mechanism for dealing with the past, but doing that is really
:10:33. > :10:36.difficult because of the pain of real people. Don't you get a feeling
:10:37. > :10:41.that here in London they are hoping he will not be charged? Definitely
:10:42. > :10:44.because it would be nice if everything went away, but the civil
:10:45. > :10:53.case of the family is taken out of the hands of the police. You can see
:10:54. > :10:59.here a real failure in Westminster to see this as anything other than
:11:00. > :11:05.settled. David Cameron we know sees himself as a chairman. I was
:11:06. > :11:09.speaking to a friend in Northern Ireland who said he has never met
:11:10. > :11:14.Gerry Adams and I think this is very revealing. They consider this as a
:11:15. > :11:19.settled issue that will not trouble Westminster again. It would be, but
:11:20. > :11:24.the relatives of the disappeared don't want it to be settled. This
:11:25. > :11:30.points to the reality that the Belfast agreement probably had to be
:11:31. > :11:34.done, but the moral price at which it was purchased was far greater
:11:35. > :11:38.than we were willing to admit during the euphoria. For a country that
:11:39. > :11:46.prides itself by the rule of law to tolerate the early release of
:11:47. > :11:51.prisoners and former pal and military -- paramilitaries, I think
:11:52. > :11:57.was a very serious matter. As for the PSNI, it only exists because its
:11:58. > :12:05.predecessor failed to command the confidence of the nationalist
:12:06. > :12:12.community. It is a very big deal if even the PSNI ends up falling into
:12:13. > :12:20.the same trap. We have to is leave it there I'm afraid. It was the
:12:21. > :12:22.Conservative's local election campaign launch on Friday, and what
:12:23. > :12:26.did David Cameron focus on? Burning local issues like the state of our
:12:27. > :12:29.roads, rubbish collection or care of the elderly? No. It was Europe. The
:12:30. > :12:32.Prime Minister re-iterated again his promise of an in-out referendum on
:12:33. > :12:35.our membership of the EU in 2017. And it's being reported this morning
:12:36. > :12:39.that he will share a platform with Nigel Farage in a pre-general
:12:40. > :12:43.election debate. Here's what the UKIP leader had to say about the
:12:44. > :12:51.issue when he was on the Marr Show this morning with Ed Miliband. David
:12:52. > :12:57.Cameron very often makes these vague promises, then doesn't deliver
:12:58. > :13:02.afterwards. I don't think he has any intention of allowing me into any of
:13:03. > :13:09.these debates. Perhaps Ed Miliband wants to debate? We have got to have
:13:10. > :13:13.the TV debates as we did join the last general election. I think David
:13:14. > :13:18.Cameron is doing everything he can to wriggle out of them. It is up to
:13:19. > :13:28.the broadcasters but whether they invite Nigel. My main desire is that
:13:29. > :13:36.the debates go ahead. We are joined now by Grant Shapps. Will he be
:13:37. > :13:40.included? The debates were not without problems, they took place
:13:41. > :13:46.during the campaign period and disrupted the flow of the campaign,
:13:47. > :13:50.taking it out of the regions, people getting to speak to the leaders so a
:13:51. > :13:55.longer period for that would be helpful. I think they are good idea
:13:56. > :14:00.and they should go ahead, but all of the negotiation about who is
:14:01. > :14:06.involved is yet to happen. So it is not a done deal that Nigel Farage
:14:07. > :14:11.will be included? That needs to be negotiated with the TV companies.
:14:12. > :14:18.The Conservatives believe we should have debates, but exactly the format
:14:19. > :14:25.and the timing, all of the -- that will be debated in the autumn, but
:14:26. > :14:32.first we have European elections, the Queen 's speech and a Scottish
:14:33. > :14:36.referendum. The local election campaign was launched on Friday. Why
:14:37. > :14:46.did you talk more about Europe than local councils? Both are important.
:14:47. > :14:50.The local elections are critically important for people, their local
:14:51. > :14:56.services. It is easy to forget, for example, that the council tax has
:14:57. > :15:01.been largely frozen since this Government came to power, a big
:15:02. > :15:07.contrast to Dublin under the previous Labour government. So why
:15:08. > :15:16.did you go on and on about Europe? Let me show you the poster used to
:15:17. > :15:20.launch your local election campaign. There it is, and in-out referendum
:15:21. > :15:26.on Europe, the day of the local elections, where is the word local?
:15:27. > :15:30.Is it in small print? I hear what you're saying, I am happy to be here
:15:31. > :15:35.to talk about the local elections. But you are right, they are on the
:15:36. > :15:40.same day, and not many people know that only by voting conservative can
:15:41. > :15:45.you get an in-out referendum. -- Conservative. UKIP cannot deliver,
:15:46. > :15:51.we can, it is the same date, so people... This was the launch of the
:15:52. > :15:54.local election campaign. Why does the Prime Minister have to keep on
:15:55. > :16:01.promising something he has already promised? The actual referendum
:16:02. > :16:05.would be in 2017. He promised it before, he keeps repeating it
:16:06. > :16:10.because he knows people don't really trust him. I think it is a question
:16:11. > :16:15.of the fact that, actually, unless you remind people that the pledges
:16:16. > :16:19.there, that the only way to get an in-out referendum is to vote for
:16:20. > :16:24.it, this is a critical moment at which we need people to vote for
:16:25. > :16:29.that referendum if they want it. It is not the case, as I saw this
:16:30. > :16:33.morning, being said by Nigel Farage, that a referendum was promised
:16:34. > :16:37.before and not delivered. There was no referendum in the last manifesto.
:16:38. > :16:46.There will be in the next one. There was a cast-iron guarantee, in the
:16:47. > :16:54.Sun in 2006. Let's just clear that up... Once the Lisbon Treaty... In
:16:55. > :16:58.the Sun article, he said, we will have a referendum on the Lisbon
:16:59. > :17:03.Treaty. Clearly, because that treaty had been passed before the general
:17:04. > :17:09.election, it is difficult to have a referendum on something in the past.
:17:10. > :17:14.We joined Europe in the 1970s, having a referendum on that! Look,
:17:15. > :17:17.that is about the future. Our relationship with Europe is
:17:18. > :17:23.absolutely critical. Most people in this country feel, I was not old
:17:24. > :17:28.enough to vote in that referendum, most of those who voted, they voted
:17:29. > :17:32.for a Common Market, that is not what we have got. We want to
:17:33. > :17:39.continue the work we have been doing in the EU Budget, what did UKIP do?
:17:40. > :17:43.They voted against it. We want more of those powers brought home, and we
:17:44. > :17:48.will put it to a referendum, and people will have to vote
:17:49. > :17:51.Conservative to get it. We have been looking at new research, almost two
:17:52. > :17:56.thirds of Conservative members are considering voting for UKIP, almost
:17:57. > :18:07.two thirds. I have a simple message here, which is this. If you vote for
:18:08. > :18:13.UKIP... Can we have it up? 30% are likely, 30% are possible. That is
:18:14. > :18:18.why it is important we are making these arguments. If you vote for
:18:19. > :18:22.UKIP, you are voting to take us further away from returning powers
:18:23. > :18:26.to this country, further from a referendum. It is support for Ed
:18:27. > :18:30.Miliband becoming Prime Minister, and he will do exactly what Labour
:18:31. > :18:35.have always done - hand away powers, and away the rebate for nothing in
:18:36. > :18:40.return, giving Europe even more so over the day-to-day affairs in
:18:41. > :18:43.Britain. Why are so many people considering voting UKIP? It is to
:18:44. > :18:48.hold your feet to the fire, they do not trust you on a referendum, so
:18:49. > :18:54.they will vote UKIP to force you to tap in your line. We have a very
:18:55. > :18:59.tough line. If I had said four years ago that this government would
:19:00. > :19:03.manage to cut the overall EU budget, would take us out of the
:19:04. > :19:07.bailout fund that Labour got us into, passing a law that no more
:19:08. > :19:11.powers can go to Europe without a referendum, if I had said that,
:19:12. > :19:15.people would say, I do not believe it will happen. Not only have we
:19:16. > :19:18.done these things, we are promising and in-out referendum, and the only
:19:19. > :19:22.way to get it is to vote Conservative. Nigel Farage has
:19:23. > :19:26.said, we can't change anything in Europe, and it is no wonder that the
:19:27. > :19:31.president of the European Commission has said, we love having these UKIP
:19:32. > :19:37.MEPs, because they don't turn up and vote, apart from when they vote
:19:38. > :19:42.against the cut in the budget. It goes beyond UKIP in your party,
:19:43. > :19:47.because this research also showed that those Conservative members most
:19:48. > :19:51.likely to vote for UKIP, they said they do not feel valued or respected
:19:52. > :19:54.by their own leadership, and they regard David Cameron as ideological
:19:55. > :20:02.eat more remote from them than UKIP. What I would say is look at that
:20:03. > :20:10.list... Let me take that step further. What people need our series
:20:11. > :20:20.solutions to serious problems. When people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will
:20:21. > :20:24.say, which one of the 40% of the MEPs who got in for UKIP last time
:20:25. > :20:29.are you voting for, the ones above left or defected, the ones have gone
:20:30. > :20:33.to jail? 40% have ended up not delivering. People have a right to
:20:34. > :20:37.know what to expect when they vote in these elections. They can look at
:20:38. > :20:42.our record at home, and this goes to the point you have raised about what
:20:43. > :20:47.we have done in Britain to get this economy back on track, recover from
:20:48. > :20:55.Labour's recession. We are prepared to take those decisions in Europe as
:20:56. > :20:58.well. Presumably, active Conservative members, they know
:20:59. > :21:04.that, so why do they not feel valued by the leadership? I spend time
:21:05. > :21:10.going up and down the country meeting Conservative members, and
:21:11. > :21:13.they are on the doorstep, last weekend 150 out in Enfield
:21:14. > :21:20.campaigning for the European and local elections... Why are they keen
:21:21. > :21:26.on UKIP? When I meet somebody who says that, not necessarily a
:21:27. > :21:36.member... Have you met members of say they will vote UKIP? No, but a
:21:37. > :21:42.vote for UKIP is... Do not do it, you will end up with Labour having
:21:43. > :21:46.more control, handing away powers to Europe. 51-year-old meeting members
:21:47. > :21:52.who say they will vote UKIP, you must be out of touch. -- if you are
:21:53. > :21:56.not meeting members. Some of your members are thinking of voting UKIP.
:21:57. > :22:01.I spend huge amount of time travelling around, I just told you
:22:02. > :22:08.about this action day in Enfield, where we had an enormous turnout.
:22:09. > :22:10.Those members were on the doorsteps pointing out that you can only get
:22:11. > :22:17.reform in Europe by voting Conservative. Labour and the Lib
:22:18. > :22:22.Dems will not deliver, UKIP can't, Conservatives will. You have not got
:22:23. > :22:29.that message across, because a YouGov poll shows, on Europe, who
:22:30. > :22:36.has the best policies? Tories 18%, Labour 19%, UKIP 27%. On the
:22:37. > :22:41.economy, Tories 27%, Labour 23, UKIP 4. Why don't you shut up about
:22:42. > :22:47.Europe and talk about the economy? Look, on the 27th of May, we have
:22:48. > :22:50.European elections, as well as local elections. If I don't talk about the
:22:51. > :22:54.European elections, you would say what you said at the beginning about
:22:55. > :22:57.not talking about the local elections! These are serious
:22:58. > :23:02.elections, and the point I am tried to make is that the issues at stake
:23:03. > :23:07.are not peripheral, they are not unimportant. Our MEPs have been
:23:08. > :23:09.battling to cut red tape from a European level on small businesses,
:23:10. > :23:12.the same thing this government has been doing for small businesses
:23:13. > :23:19.domestic league, where for example every small business owner watching
:23:20. > :23:21.this show knows they have got ?2000 back in employment announced on
:23:22. > :23:25.national insurance contributions. We are doing it at home, we are doing
:23:26. > :23:30.it in Europe, and it is important to tie that together. Ireland that Mr
:23:31. > :23:46.Cameron saying, you should stop banging on about Europe... -- I
:23:47. > :23:55.remember. This is before the last general election, as in days for the
:23:56. > :23:59.Lib Dems, 18%. Even then, you didn't win the election, and now you are
:24:00. > :24:05.only three or four points ahead, it doesn't look good for you, does it?
:24:06. > :24:11.Even then, the poll did not turn out to be what it was on the day. No,
:24:12. > :24:14.that is what happens, that is the voting intentions now! You are in a
:24:15. > :24:21.worse position than a year before the last election, which you didn't
:24:22. > :24:25.win. We are almost proving the point that you can take a clip at any
:24:26. > :24:29.moment in time, not sounding like a politician, but the only poll that
:24:30. > :24:34.matters is on the day. In just over a year's time, people will have a
:24:35. > :24:39.completely different picture to look at than these opinion polls. We have
:24:40. > :24:45.an economy from being a basket case, the great Labour recession
:24:46. > :24:48.knocking 7% of this economy, hurting every family, to a point where we
:24:49. > :24:54.the fastest-growing economy in the developed world. In a year's time, I
:24:55. > :24:57.hope people will see that we are the people who've taken the difficult
:24:58. > :25:01.decisions, got the economy to the right place, more security for you
:25:02. > :25:06.and your family. Do not give the car keys back to the people who crashed
:25:07. > :25:11.it in the first place. If I had a pound for every time I have heard
:25:12. > :25:17.that! It is clearly not getting through. On the Pfizer attempted of
:25:18. > :25:23.AstraZeneca, Mr Miliband called this morning for a tougher public
:25:24. > :25:27.interest test such big takeovers. Do you agree with that or not? Let me
:25:28. > :25:34.be absolutely clear, if there is any kind of joining, we are in favour of
:25:35. > :25:43.British jobs, British aren't deep, expanding our pharmaceutical sector.
:25:44. > :25:55.-- R But what Mr Mallon and wants to do with rent caps, he is
:25:56. > :26:03.anti-business. -- Mr Miliband. He wants to take us back to the bad old
:26:04. > :26:10.those. -- bad old days. Should there be a bigger public interest test? We
:26:11. > :26:16.have seen some takeovers that people have criticised, but others, like
:26:17. > :26:21.Bentley, Land Rover, which have been very successful. Should there be a
:26:22. > :26:24.tougher test?! We will have tests that ensured this get-together
:26:25. > :26:29.becomes a great Anglo-American project, or it doesn't happen, but
:26:30. > :26:34.the Miliband approach is simply to be anti-business, anti-jobs and
:26:35. > :26:37.anti-job security. Grant Shapps, thank you.
:26:38. > :26:42.A challenging week for the Liberal Democrats with a local election
:26:43. > :26:46.campaign overshadowed by another row with the Conservatives about knife
:26:47. > :26:52.crime. Adam has spent the day with Nick Clegg on the campaign trail.
:26:53. > :26:56.How nice! Nick Clegg is taking me on a political mini break to the
:26:57. > :27:00.Cotswolds. Yes, we are getting the train. He wants to highlight what
:27:01. > :27:05.his party is doing in local government, and a personal passion
:27:06. > :27:09.of his in Europe. Graham Watson, the Lib Dem MEP for the south-west, has
:27:10. > :27:15.been running a campaign to have prunes recognised as a laxative. Is
:27:16. > :27:19.that Lib Dems battling for Britain in Europe? It is not our front page
:27:20. > :27:25.manifesto commitment! It is one of many things that Graham does, he
:27:26. > :27:32.does many other things. In fact, he is a good example of an MEP who took
:27:33. > :27:35.a pioneering role, for instance, in making sure... There is the proven
:27:36. > :27:42.world, but also the crime-fighting role. -- prune. He has done work to
:27:43. > :27:47.make sure that when British criminals flee justice, we can bring
:27:48. > :27:52.them back. And he has promoted prunes! First stop, a gorgeous
:27:53. > :27:57.country pub, but it turns out everyone is a journalist or a very
:27:58. > :28:02.on message activist. Dark days, being a Lib Dem in the last few
:28:03. > :28:07.years? Strangely not. If you find you are a Lib Dem deep down, you do
:28:08. > :28:10.not get that disheartened, because you know that, locally, you are
:28:11. > :28:15.doing so well for the people that you live next door to that,
:28:16. > :28:20.actually, I find I am almost impervious to what happens on a
:28:21. > :28:25.national level. I am mayor of Cirencester. Have you taken any
:28:26. > :28:30.leadership lessons from Nick Clegg, inspiring new in your leadership of
:28:31. > :28:33.Cirencester? I think what he has demonstrated his patience. It has
:28:34. > :28:37.been a tough time, he has taken a lot of flak, and as the mayor of a
:28:38. > :28:43.town, lots of people agree with you and a fair few don't. You are a full
:28:44. > :28:48.on mayor, he is just a Deputy Prime Minister, do you outrank him? I
:28:49. > :28:54.don't think so, he is in government, I am not. So our there any normal
:28:55. > :28:59.people in here? We are from Swindon, you cannot get more
:29:00. > :29:07.abnormal. Are you a big fan of his? No! What has he done wrong? I don't
:29:08. > :29:13.believe in his views at all. Where has he got to? Nigel Farage would
:29:14. > :29:20.have had a pint! At this time in the morning a copy was more appropriate.
:29:21. > :29:25.I have no time for a drink of any kind, because now we are off to look
:29:26. > :29:28.at a local traffic blackspot. This is amazing, like a Lib Dem election
:29:29. > :29:35.leaflet brought to life, Lib Dems pointing at a road. High-vis
:29:36. > :29:41.jackets! Next we had to giggle full bath, but there will be no Regency
:29:42. > :29:51.sightseeing for us, oh no, Nick is taking us to an abandoned
:29:52. > :29:54.wilderness. We have just had a health and safety briefing, we have
:29:55. > :29:58.been told to look out for dive-bombing seagulls and an angry
:29:59. > :30:02.fox. That is the sort of thing Nick Clegg has to put up with. He wants
:30:03. > :30:09.to talk about the economy but he has to dodge the day's beat new story,
:30:10. > :30:13.letters leaked by a Tory suggesting that Lib Dems are soft on knife
:30:14. > :30:23.crime. Isn't that a new kind of warfare? I just think it is silly.
:30:24. > :30:27.They may think they are clever by catching some headlines but they are
:30:28. > :30:38.not helping people who worry about knife crime, like I do. We work
:30:39. > :30:43.together... Just like the Coalition! This is a co-working
:30:44. > :30:47.space where different businesses share the same office. My time with
:30:48. > :30:53.the Deputy Prime Minister is drawing to a close. We haven't talked about
:30:54. > :30:56.the most important story of the week, that you were voted the best
:30:57. > :31:05.looking party leader and the most likely to be a good cook. Right,
:31:06. > :31:10.this is news to me and I can guarantee you that my scepticism of
:31:11. > :31:15.opinion polls has just been confirmed. Just as well because the
:31:16. > :31:20.more serious polls don't look great for him or his party. Goodbye, and
:31:21. > :31:28.thanks for the offer of a ride home!
:31:29. > :31:32.He is still walking. Malcolm Bruce joins us now. According to Lib Dem
:31:33. > :31:38.briefing documents, you are likely to choose -- lose a big chunk of
:31:39. > :31:43.your MEPs. If you lose a lot, what would that say about a party that
:31:44. > :31:47.boasts of its pro-Europe credentials? It would be
:31:48. > :31:56.disappointing because we have the most hard-working MEPs. The worry
:31:57. > :31:59.that we have is that people think the European Parliament is not
:32:00. > :32:07.important but it takes decisions that affect us. They would be
:32:08. > :32:12.disappointing for Britain as well as the Liberal Democrats. Isn't the
:32:13. > :32:18.problem that the more you bang on about your pro-European credentials,
:32:19. > :32:21.the more you slip in the polls? I do think so, we have two weeks to go
:32:22. > :32:33.and we are campaigning extremely hard. You are forced in the polls. I
:32:34. > :32:37.can tell you there are people out there who do believe Britain should
:32:38. > :32:43.stay in the EU and they are worried that other parties will take us out.
:32:44. > :32:49.The Liberal Democrats are clear, we want to stay in, we will work for
:32:50. > :32:52.reform and do it effectively. If you lose the Liberal Democrats,
:32:53. > :32:59.Britain's influence in Europe will be weakened. Your track record in
:33:00. > :33:04.Europe shows you have been spectacularly wrong again and again.
:33:05. > :33:10.In your 2009 manifesto you said the European Central Bank and the euro
:33:11. > :33:14.have been tried and tested over ten years providing a clear picture of
:33:15. > :33:20.the benefits of Eurozone membership and that proved to be nonsense. It
:33:21. > :33:25.was nonsense everywhere. Every developed bank in the world was
:33:26. > :33:31.tried and tested and failed. Europe may not be perfect, but the question
:33:32. > :33:37.people have to decide is if we are going to leave Europe and be
:33:38. > :33:43.isolated on RM, or use our influence to reform it from inside. We have
:33:44. > :33:50.allies, you work with them, that is something the Lib Dems do better
:33:51. > :33:55.than any other parties. Your 2004 manifesto, you claim that being
:33:56. > :34:00.outside the euro would lead to job losses and reduced prosperity. You
:34:01. > :34:06.were just plain wrong, weren't you? Yes, but the reason is that to some
:34:07. > :34:13.extent the euro did not observe any rules and regulations when it was
:34:14. > :34:18.set up. That is why we never recommended Britain should join at
:34:19. > :34:26.the outset because the criteria had not been met. In 2001 Nick Clegg was
:34:27. > :34:31.writing to the Financial Times... Your track record is important. He
:34:32. > :34:35.wrote that the Tisch monetary policy is not all it is cracked up to be.
:34:36. > :34:43.Britain would gain greater control over its affairs by joining the
:34:44. > :34:50.euro. How wrong can he be? We have always argued that the currency had
:34:51. > :34:55.to abide by strict criteria. It hasn't done so and that is one of
:34:56. > :35:02.the reasons it has failed. We recognise there is no future for
:35:03. > :35:09.Britain joining the euro and we are not advocating it. Lets put your
:35:10. > :35:15.2010 manifesto on the screen. I didn't say it was not our long-term
:35:16. > :35:19.interest. If Europe succeeds as an entity, if the euro becomes one of
:35:20. > :35:28.the world leading currencies, there will come a point when it may be
:35:29. > :35:33.justified. In the circumstances we are in the moment, there is no
:35:34. > :35:38.recommended timescale. Let's get this right. Despite the Eurozone
:35:39. > :35:44.crisis which has cost millions of jobs, countries that were teetering
:35:45. > :35:48.on the brink of bankruptcy, the Eurozone now facing stagnation and
:35:49. > :35:54.some countries on the brink of deflation, you still won't rule out
:35:55. > :35:58.Britain joining? We are ruling it out in the foreseeable future. You
:35:59. > :36:02.can miss the point that we are working as a coalition partner in
:36:03. > :36:07.government that has secured recovery for the UK, and working as Liberal
:36:08. > :36:12.Democrats in the parliament that have cut back the European budget in
:36:13. > :36:19.cooperation with others. What would the world look like if it were right
:36:20. > :36:25.for Britain to join the euro? You have 27 states at the moment, with
:36:26. > :36:29.too many countries still struggling to meet the criteria so until you
:36:30. > :36:33.have a strong and cohesive enough single Eurozone in which all the
:36:34. > :36:40.countries can meet that criteria, Britain is better off out. So a more
:36:41. > :36:45.centralised Eurozone, that is what you would like Britain to join? No,
:36:46. > :36:48.because it can only happen by consent. Any circumstances in which
:36:49. > :36:57.any further powers would be transferred from the UK to the EU,
:36:58. > :37:01.we would support a referendum. You have just said that for the Eurozone
:37:02. > :37:05.to work, it has to be more centralised and you said if that
:37:06. > :37:10.happens, that is what Britain would join. I didn't say that, I said it
:37:11. > :37:18.would require the consent of all member states to agree to the
:37:19. > :37:22.criteria. We certainly do not envisage joining in the foreseeable
:37:23. > :37:30.future. Since you are the proud party of in, why weren't you just
:37:31. > :37:35.give us a referendum on in or out? Because it has to have a context.
:37:36. > :37:40.What David Cameron is doing is dangerous because I think the major
:37:41. > :37:44.players like Britain and France are not keen on the idea of being
:37:45. > :37:48.bullied into reforms on the instigation of just one member state
:37:49. > :37:56.which is threatening possibility to withdraw. They will have to agree to
:37:57. > :38:01.rules... Just have it now. Do you want in or out? To have a referendum
:38:02. > :38:06.against no background is to put it out of context. We are in the middle
:38:07. > :38:15.of a crisis, a year away from the general election. We have made it
:38:16. > :38:20.clear... You said we are in the middle of the Eurozone crisis? So we
:38:21. > :38:25.are not in the middle of it? What's the middle? The reality is that the
:38:26. > :38:30.Western world has gone through a deep crisis. The UK is coming out of
:38:31. > :38:35.it, the Eurozone is coming out of it. Greece have been able to borrow
:38:36. > :38:39.on the markets in recent weeks which is a sign of success. It is in our
:38:40. > :38:43.interest is the Eurozone succeeds and recovers and we should be part
:38:44. > :38:48.of it but not necessarily on the same conditions as everyone else.
:38:49. > :38:51.The Liberal Democrats work with others to deliver Britain's
:38:52. > :38:58.interests and if they are not there, their interests will be undermined.
:38:59. > :39:00.You are watching Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland
:39:01. > :39:15.Hello. You are watching the Sunday now.
:39:16. > :39:20.Hello. You are watching the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire
:39:21. > :39:25.and the North Midlands. Coming up, we find out why there are calls for
:39:26. > :39:31.voters to be given more powers to sack MPs who behave badly. Let's say
:39:32. > :39:40.hello to our guests today. Alec Shelbrooke, and John Mann. Hello to
:39:41. > :39:46.you both. We are talking about MPs behaving badly. You said this week
:39:47. > :39:51.that sexual harassment that `` at Westminster is a significant
:39:52. > :39:57.problem. What is your evidence? What I say and what I have seen. It has
:39:58. > :40:01.been there a long time and is not as bad as it was, but has not gone
:40:02. > :40:06.away. The problem is exacerbated because there is no system for
:40:07. > :40:09.dealing with it. People don't know where to go so people get away with
:40:10. > :40:17.stuff that is a bit dodgy and they can carry on. What sort of things
:40:18. > :40:21.are you talking about? I am not commenting about people's general
:40:22. > :40:26.behaviour, who is doing what with whom. This is about misuse of
:40:27. > :40:32.power, people misusing power concerns me. That is a problem that
:40:33. > :40:41.has existed and still does. Is that your experience, Alec Shelbrooke, of
:40:42. > :40:44.life at Westminster, ? It is not my experience but I think that people
:40:45. > :40:49.who work with MPs should be able to report them to an HR department. It
:40:50. > :40:54.is a peculiar setup in Westminster of quite unprofessional ways in,
:40:55. > :41:00.being crammed into tiny offices with a group of people reporting just to
:41:01. > :41:05.the MP. I think there is a need to professionalise it not of the way
:41:06. > :41:08.the place works. Some would say the resignation of
:41:09. > :41:10.the Newark MP Patrick Mercer this week over a cash`for`questions
:41:11. > :41:12.scandal has further dented the battered reputation of parliament.
:41:13. > :41:17.Voters in his constituency will however get the chance to elect a
:41:18. > :41:20.new MP in a by`election. But in most cases voters have no power
:41:21. > :41:27.whatsoever to sack their MP if they've misbehaved and many believe
:41:28. > :41:33.that should change. Here's Sharon Edwards.
:41:34. > :41:36.The recent resignation of Maria Miller over her expenses claims
:41:37. > :41:43.brought back bitter memories for many voters. It is five years since
:41:44. > :41:46.the expenses scandal first rocked Westminster when it was revealed
:41:47. > :41:49.that some MPs had claimed four moats, duck houses and, in the case
:41:50. > :42:00.of former Scunthorpe MP Elliot Morley, thousands of pounds for a
:42:01. > :42:03.mortgage that did not exist. So do the people of Scunthorpe believe the
:42:04. > :42:08.politicians have cleaned up their act? I think they are all out to
:42:09. > :42:13.feather their own nests. I think there should be more transparency in
:42:14. > :42:16.their spending. Anybody that works has to account for everything,
:42:17. > :42:22.expenses, fuel etc, why should they be any different? Crooked. Yeah,
:42:23. > :42:28.corrupt and crooked. We are paying for everything. They get away with
:42:29. > :42:32.it. The government recently shelved plans to introduce a power of recall
:42:33. > :42:39.where voters could be given the power to sack their MP. But a
:42:40. > :42:46.campaign led by conservative Zac Goldsmith aims to force the issue
:42:47. > :42:50.back onto the political agenda. I think it is time that we put power
:42:51. > :42:53.back in the hands of citizens who elect us for five`year terms, which
:42:54. > :42:57.is a long time, which is something I don't actually support. So I think
:42:58. > :43:00.if MPs have done wrong or they have failed their constituents, there
:43:01. > :43:04.needs to be a mechanism to allow members of public to recall their
:43:05. > :43:07.members of Parliament. The latest proposal suggests a system where a
:43:08. > :43:10.petition signed by at least 20% of the electorate in a constituency
:43:11. > :43:19.would trigger a referendum on the future of an MP. If more than half
:43:20. > :43:26.of voters support the recall of the MP, then a by`election would have to
:43:27. > :43:29.be called. I think there are a lot of MPs who worked incredibly hard
:43:30. > :43:34.and do a very, very good job for their constituency. This is not
:43:35. > :43:37.about saying that all MPs are bad. It is saying that there needs to be
:43:38. > :43:42.a safety valve in our political system that where there is an issue,
:43:43. > :43:45.voters can have a say. At the moment, if there is a scandal,
:43:46. > :43:47.whether about expenses, Douglas Hogg's moat, or Patrick Mercer's
:43:48. > :43:54.lobbying, political parties can have a say, they can withdraw the whip.
:43:55. > :43:57.`` Patrick Mercer and lobbying. Parliament can have an enquiry and
:43:58. > :44:00.reach a conclusion about appropriate sanctions. But the voters of the
:44:01. > :44:06.constituency are left out of that process entirely. Opinion polls
:44:07. > :44:11.suggest that the reputation of MPs has improved little since the
:44:12. > :44:21.expenses scandal. Many believe Parliament could do more to put its
:44:22. > :44:26.house in order. John Mann, do voters need to be
:44:27. > :44:31.given the power of recall and sack MPs who behave badly? Of course they
:44:32. > :44:36.should. There is a word for it, democracy. It has been lacking. If
:44:37. > :44:40.Patrick Mercer had been suspended, he has been suspended for six
:44:41. > :44:44.months, if he hadn't resigned, people of new work would not have
:44:45. > :44:51.had an MP for six months. That is nonsensical. The Coalition
:44:52. > :44:54.Government promised us this, they said it would happen before the next
:44:55. > :45:01.election, but they have dropped the plans? Are you running scared? It is
:45:02. > :45:06.a mystery to me why it was dropped. It was in the manifesto and I
:45:07. > :45:11.supported. Exactly what John said. It is unreasonable to expect an MP
:45:12. > :45:15.who get sanctioned by the health authorities, get suspended, could
:45:16. > :45:20.carry on in that seat. The game is up. Go and have a referendum, have
:45:21. > :45:24.the right of recall. There are all sorts of questions which need to be
:45:25. > :45:28.cleared up. Parliament would like the commission to look into MPs. The
:45:29. > :45:33.fact that the standards commission and Parliament was saying perhaps
:45:34. > :45:40.Maria Miller does not need to playback `` payback ?45,000...
:45:41. > :45:47.45,000? It is an enormous sum of money! It was a number of weeks
:45:48. > :45:52.before she did it. And I disagreed. I think it is absolutely right that
:45:53. > :46:00.there should be some sort of right to recall in those situations. John
:46:01. > :46:07.Mann, a `` are you prepared to support that Goldsmith? I will and I
:46:08. > :46:11.think it is needed. Maria Miller should be out there. The people of
:46:12. > :46:18.Basingstoke added big public meeting. They want a say. They want
:46:19. > :46:24.a chance to vote her out. They should have that right. It is five
:46:25. > :46:28.years on from the expensive scandal, before you went to Parliament. How
:46:29. > :46:35.do you improve the image of parliament? People still think you
:46:36. > :46:40.are a bunch of crooks. The relationship is broken. You need to
:46:41. > :46:47.try to let people have a say when something has gone wrong. You are
:46:48. > :46:51.dreaming if there is `` if you think there is something that we can do
:46:52. > :46:55.where people will think that politicians are not just out to help
:46:56. > :46:59.them in pockets. We can give more power to people but don't think they
:47:00. > :47:05.will think differently from now. How would you improve the image, John
:47:06. > :47:09.Mann? As every MP had said, it is answering the questions that people
:47:10. > :47:11.like yourself ask! But even with that people like yourself ask! But
:47:12. > :47:19.even without, it will take a long time to heal this relationship. Do
:47:20. > :47:23.you have a moat? It is difficult to get a moat around a terraced house.
:47:24. > :47:25.Campaigning is under way for the European elections which take place
:47:26. > :47:29.on May 22nd. With Britain's future in Europe the subject of much
:47:30. > :47:32.debate, Len Tingle has been back to a West Yorkshire village which held
:47:33. > :47:42.its own referendum on whether we should remain part of the EU.
:47:43. > :47:43.The mighty European Union. 28 countries, half a billion
:47:44. > :47:51.population, breathtakingly grand institutional buildings and ?120
:47:52. > :47:54.billion annual budget. The parish of Crigglestone. Five
:47:55. > :48:04.small villages, 9000 population, turn`of`the`century parish hall and
:48:05. > :48:09.an annual budget of just ?14,000. `` ?40,000. But back in 2007, a chunk
:48:10. > :48:12.of that budget had to be spent holding a local referendum on the
:48:13. > :48:15.question of whether we really should be part of the European Union. So
:48:16. > :48:19.why is it that it tiny little place like this was holding a referendum
:48:20. > :48:21.on EU mothership at all? Well, it was because anti`European Union
:48:22. > :48:28.campaigners spotted a loophole in the 1972 Local Government Act. It
:48:29. > :48:31.said that if ten people, just ten, signed a petition, then they could
:48:32. > :48:39.force the parish council to hold a referendum on any subject at all.
:48:40. > :48:43.And that subject was sparked by the then Labour Prime Minister Gordon
:48:44. > :48:46.Brown. He joined other prime ministers and presidents and signed
:48:47. > :48:51.a new agreement on how the European Union should be governed and grow.
:48:52. > :48:57.But he refused to hold a national referendum on the issue. And that is
:48:58. > :48:59.where Crigglestone came in. One of five tiny parishes across England
:49:00. > :49:02.where angry opponents of the European Union forced their own
:49:03. > :49:09.referendums to be held to put the issue into the national headlines.
:49:10. > :49:12.The driving force behind the controversial moves to force the
:49:13. > :49:17.parish to hold a referendum was former Olympic rower Alex Story. He
:49:18. > :49:24.was then prospective Conservative Party candidate for the constituency
:49:25. > :49:28.of Wakefield. `` the year respective Conservative Party `` the
:49:29. > :49:32.Eurosceptic. At the time, he denied it was a political stunt and a waste
:49:33. > :49:35.of time. Despite the Conservatives campaigning hard, only around 500
:49:36. > :49:38.bothered to vote, less than 10%. But of those that did, an overwhelming
:49:39. > :49:43.majority backed what was in effect a call for an immediate national
:49:44. > :49:48.referendum on our EU membership. An issue that clearly hasn't gone away.
:49:49. > :49:53.We want to govern our own country, make our own laws, control our own
:49:54. > :49:57.borders... Nigel Farage's UKIP were not part of that referendum seven
:49:58. > :50:05.years ago, but they did use the same loophole in other similar parish
:50:06. > :50:08.referendums across the country. And on a far larger stage, Nigel Farage
:50:09. > :50:15.was beating the same drum at his launch of this year's election
:50:16. > :50:18.campaign in Sheffield. In fact, only the Liberal Democrats are ruling out
:50:19. > :50:27.any sort of referendum on UK membership. We need to vote to get
:50:28. > :50:30.Labour candidates in the town halls and Labour MPs in the European
:50:31. > :50:32.Parliament. Labour launched its campaign in Dewsbury this week and
:50:33. > :50:35.even as its candidates highlighted the importance of its membership,
:50:36. > :50:43.one senior Labour MP, Bassetlaw's John Mann, was urging the party to
:50:44. > :50:47.set up a date for a referendum. And as for the Conservatives, Alex Story
:50:48. > :50:51.is now one of its candidates for the European elections. With the
:50:52. > :50:57.leadership flatly denying it has a problem with the issue of a
:50:58. > :51:00.referendum. We passed a law that gives this country a referendum
:51:01. > :51:04.lock. No more powers going over to Brussels without a referendum for
:51:05. > :51:06.the British people. So, almost seven years on, should that tiny
:51:07. > :51:17.Crigglestone referendum be reassessed? A political stunt, or a
:51:18. > :51:22.trailblazer? We have also been joined by Julio
:51:23. > :51:28.Gash. She is an award`winning entrepreneur from Sheffield. Ten
:51:29. > :51:31.years ago, you stood as a Lib Dem candidate in the European elections.
:51:32. > :51:36.Why do you think that we have become more Eurosceptic in the last decade?
:51:37. > :51:40.I think there are issues which have not been answered by national
:51:41. > :51:45.politicians and by European politicians. We need answers and
:51:46. > :51:49.those answers are not thinking indicated clearly. As such, it is
:51:50. > :51:55.allowing an open field for like Nigel Farage. What sort of questions
:51:56. > :52:01.are you talking about? Questions like, how is Europe run? It is very
:52:02. > :52:11.very, very opaque. I was saying this ten years ago, people are not
:52:12. > :52:16.knowing what is going on. It allows people to fill the vacuum and bring
:52:17. > :52:25.in scare stories. Where there are gaps in people's knowledge, there is
:52:26. > :52:35.fear. You had a referendum, what were the results? 50% to leave the
:52:36. > :52:40.EU, some don't knows. That is similar to a survey I had six or
:52:41. > :52:46.seven years ago. That was not overall in favour. The consistency
:52:47. > :52:51.there `` there is consistency there. The issue that emerges is
:52:52. > :52:56.immigration. We shouldn't hide away from it. The issue on the doorstep
:52:57. > :53:00.is not that power of its power, a minority are interested in that. It
:53:01. > :53:05.is about immigration, people feeling that there is too much. David
:53:06. > :53:10.Cameron has been all over the TV and the newspapers talking about
:53:11. > :53:19.immigration. Is he running scared of UKIP? Not at all. He has said that
:53:20. > :53:23.we will have an in out referendum if there is a Conservative majority
:53:24. > :53:30.after the next election. We brought forward air a `` a bill about having
:53:31. > :53:35.a referendum which was defeated. But all the issues we are talking about
:53:36. > :53:40.boil down to the fact whether people want to be in and out of Europe. We
:53:41. > :53:46.should look at the Scottish referendum, things which now have
:53:47. > :53:49.front`page coverage. It ties into the argument that area is not
:53:50. > :53:53.explored, stories are not explain. When you have a referendum, when
:53:54. > :53:58.there is something coming around the corner, all sides of the argument
:53:59. > :54:01.put forward. That is very important on its own. So do you welcome
:54:02. > :54:08.Cameron Potter promise of a referendum? Not necessarily, and the
:54:09. > :54:12.example of Crigglestone shows why this is the case. You get people
:54:13. > :54:18.with extreme views who will manipulate it for their own agenda
:54:19. > :54:24.`` agenda. People did not turn up and it was a very costly exercise.
:54:25. > :54:29.We work for people at a local level and an international level. I don't
:54:30. > :54:33.think that a referendum what's all that is you. Politicians are
:54:34. > :54:38.accountable for communicating on all issues, national or European. They
:54:39. > :54:41.do not. Immigration is an issue which has not been debated but a
:54:42. > :54:45.referendum is not the place for that. John Mann, you have written to
:54:46. > :54:53.your party leader demanding a referendum. Why do think he is
:54:54. > :54:56.wrong? Advising politely! I am in favour of having that debate is
:54:57. > :55:04.separate from elections. The problem is this. The Tories say they want a
:55:05. > :55:10.referendum, but on what? They want a more flexible labour market, more
:55:11. > :55:15.zero hours contracts and more agency workers. That is exactly what is
:55:16. > :55:20.fuelling the debate. People want less agencies, no zero hour
:55:21. > :55:24.contracts. They don't want this flexible labour market and neither
:55:25. > :55:27.do why. That is their big problem with immigration. People have
:55:28. > :55:33.nothing against Eastern Europeans, they just think that it is driving
:55:34. > :55:39.down jobs and wages. My job, my wages. Agencies are undermining that
:55:40. > :55:44.more. Cameron and UKIP want more of it. What Cameron should do is get
:55:45. > :55:53.that sorted and the public would say, good on you. I will let Alec
:55:54. > :55:57.Shelbrooke answer that. If you look at our plans, we want to renegotiate
:55:58. > :56:03.border controls. We don't deserve free movement of trade, we have free
:56:04. > :56:10.movement of people moving to enjoy benefits. That leads to immigration
:56:11. > :56:14.becoming a problem. It is 5% on average, in my constituency of
:56:15. > :56:18.people I speak to, so it is not a scientific poll, say that they went
:56:19. > :56:23.into a common market and they want a common market. They don't want
:56:24. > :56:28.federalisation. Whatever the discussion is, whatever happens, the
:56:29. > :56:34.British people are not going to be satisfied until they are given a
:56:35. > :56:38.choice of in or out. Julio Gash? I think the issue of immigration and
:56:39. > :56:42.jobs is a bit of a funny one because at the end of the day, what will
:56:43. > :56:46.happen if we are not in Europe, what will happen to the factories which
:56:47. > :56:49.are supposedly employing all these immigrants? Where are they going to
:56:50. > :56:54.find the people to fill those jobs would be productivity level and the
:56:55. > :57:00.wage level? Were there be in this country or will this companies
:57:01. > :57:03.relocate `` will those companies relocate to Poland? You have to see
:57:04. > :57:09.to businesses as to how they would respond. Briefly, I would say that
:57:10. > :57:12.is an argument in favour of staying. None of these arguments will come to
:57:13. > :57:17.the fork until there is a referendum about in or out. How do you get
:57:18. > :57:24.people in places like Sheffield to love Europe? Being at the heart of
:57:25. > :57:28.Europe means jobs. We need to export to Europe, it is our biggest market.
:57:29. > :57:32.We need to make an export things that is what makes Yorkshire great.
:57:33. > :57:35.That is what makes Britain great. I'll be hosting a radio debate on
:57:36. > :57:38.the European elections, with some of the candidates standing in the
:57:39. > :57:41.Yorkshire and Humber region. That will be on Thursday lunchtime from
:57:42. > :57:44.12 noon on BBC Radio Humberside, BBC Radio Leeds, BBC Radio Sheffield and
:57:45. > :57:53.BBC Radio York. Tweet me at iredalepolitics if you want to put
:57:54. > :57:56.question to the candidates. Again that's the Yorkshire and Humber
:57:57. > :57:59.debate from 12 noon on Thursday. Let's get some more of the week's
:58:00. > :58:04.political news now. Louise Martin has our round`up in 60 seconds.
:58:05. > :58:07.Skipton Conservative MP Julian Smith blasted a quarter of Yorkshire's MPs
:58:08. > :58:12.who either voted against HS2 or failed to vote at all. He says that
:58:13. > :58:14.the county is in danger of overlooking a phenomenal
:58:15. > :58:17.opportunity, a ?50 billion scheme which the Shadow Transport Secretary
:58:18. > :58:25.and Wakefield MP Mary Cray said the Labour Party would back, but with
:58:26. > :58:29.caveats. There is no blank cheque. The biggest risk to the project is
:58:30. > :58:32.political, political delay. Further prayers were said for the
:58:33. > :58:37.family of Ann McGuire, the Leeds teacher who was killed on Monday. ``
:58:38. > :58:40.will be said today. Praise was poured on the dedication of the
:58:41. > :58:45.loving teacher and mother and the close`knit community around Corpus
:58:46. > :58:47.Christi which she helped to create. Firefighters across Yorkshire have
:58:48. > :58:52.been taking strike action this weekend as part of a long`running
:58:53. > :58:55.dispute over pensions. The Fire Brigades' Union members walked out
:58:56. > :58:58.over changes to pensions and their retirement age. The government
:58:59. > :59:10.claims that firefighters have a generous pension scheme.
:59:11. > :59:14.Alec Shelbrooke, you'll Conservative colleague, Julian Smith, says
:59:15. > :59:20.Yorkshire people are not in the zest enough about HS2. I think he said
:59:21. > :59:28.Yorkshire MPs are not enthusiastic enough. Some others abstained on
:59:29. > :59:31.Monday night. It is important project for the city of lead but it
:59:32. > :59:38.cannot be built on the backs of hard`working people's losing equity
:59:39. > :59:42.`` loss of equity in their houses. The government has moved from where
:59:43. > :59:46.it was not far enough. Therefore, it was not enough to vote down, but it
:59:47. > :59:53.was not enough metres aborted. John Mann, you are sceptical and HS2? I'm
:59:54. > :59:58.not bothered about houses in the Cotswolds. I want all the contracts
:59:59. > :00:01.going to British companies to do the manufacturing and building. That is
:00:02. > :00:05.not in there, I want that built`in, that every single job that comes
:00:06. > :00:10.from this will go into British workers including in the North of
:00:11. > :00:14.England, including Bassetlaw. So why did 15 Yorkshire MPs at staying on
:00:15. > :00:22.that vote? Surely you should have put your money where your mouth is?
:00:23. > :00:28.I have. I have said exactly why I will support the Project for Leeds.
:00:29. > :00:33.I will wait until it is good for my constituency, I couldn't care less
:00:34. > :00:37.about the Cotswolds. M Stich runs have seen their houses devastated
:00:38. > :00:41.and until there is a compensation package in place, I cannot bring
:00:42. > :00:45.myself to say yes to this. It was just phase one, but it is important
:00:46. > :00:51.that we get these things right at the start so that when the project
:00:52. > :00:55.comes along, people are not losing out. Do you think people are
:00:56. > :00:59.confused on Labour's position on this? There were discouraging noises
:01:00. > :01:05.from Ed Balls. Now Mary Cray says she's behind the project. We don't
:01:06. > :01:09.know Labour stands. I think Ed Miliband has been clear all along.
:01:10. > :01:13.He is in favour of it and he wants to make sure that British jobs are
:01:14. > :01:18.created from it and the contracts will go to British companies. If
:01:19. > :01:20.that happens, the Labour Party will be totally unified. Do you think
:01:21. > :01:27.your government can when people around? I think what is important is
:01:28. > :01:32.closing down the North`South divide. As the HS2 as important project to
:01:33. > :01:36.do that. The infrastructure for transport in Leeds is nowhere near
:01:37. > :01:40.as good as elsewhere. The government says that billions will be invested
:01:41. > :01:43.bringing the railway line to Leeds. We have to support that that we have
:01:44. > :01:50.to make sure that is done correctly and fairly and in the right way. You
:01:51. > :01:54.are confident, John Mann, that, `` that investment in these codes
:01:55. > :01:59.mainline will not suffer? I am already well on the case to insure
:02:00. > :02:04.that investment on the East Coast railway line, all the lines across
:02:05. > :02:05.to the HS2, will not suffer. That's about it from us. Thanks to
:02:06. > :02:08.our guests today John Mann That's about it from us. Thanks to
:02:09. > :02:09.our guests today John Mann and Alec Shelbrooke. Now let's go back to
:02:10. > :02:15.Andrew Neil Welcome back. Now, the Government is
:02:16. > :02:18.not very good at predicting the future. That's according to a report
:02:19. > :02:21.from a committee of MPs this morning who say that its Horizon Scanning
:02:22. > :02:23.programme that's supposed to identify potential threats, risks,
:02:24. > :02:29.emerging issues and opportunities isn't much good at reading the tea
:02:30. > :02:33.leaves. But can it really be any worse than our panel? Here they are
:02:34. > :02:43.predicting the future of then culture secretary Maria Miller
:02:44. > :02:46.before Easter. Can she survive? I'm getting out of
:02:47. > :02:53.the prediction game after I said Nick Clegg would win the debates.
:02:54. > :02:58.But I almost think she might. If there is a big event that moves this
:02:59. > :03:05.off the front pages. David Cameron will want to keep Maria Miller until
:03:06. > :03:11.at least his summary shuffle. I think they will get rid of her. I
:03:12. > :03:16.think they will do the decent thing after exhausting all other options.
:03:17. > :03:25.Maria Miller resigned a few days later of course! The best and the
:03:26. > :03:29.brightest, when did that slip in? This week it will be exactly a year
:03:30. > :03:36.until the General Election, so what better time to get our panel to gaze
:03:37. > :03:42.into their crystal balls again. What's the outcome of the election
:03:43. > :03:50.in 2015? I'm going to go with the polls and say Ed Miliband as the
:03:51. > :03:55.Prime Minister. But the polls are only a snapshot of opinion now, you
:03:56. > :04:02.think they will be the same in a year? No, I think they will narrow.
:04:03. > :04:07.I think UKIP's vote share will fall. I think they are currently coasting
:04:08. > :04:15.on a high and that will tailor way so they won't take as many votes off
:04:16. > :04:22.the Tories. Labour with a majority or is the largest party. Another
:04:23. > :04:28.liberal Conservative coalition, and I say that because he is already in
:04:29. > :04:34.touching distance of Labour. I don't think UKIP will get 15, maybe half
:04:35. > :04:38.of that, and most of the votes they lose will either not vote at all go
:04:39. > :04:43.to the Tories and that should be enough to be the biggest party in a
:04:44. > :04:49.hung parliament I don't envisage a Tory majority. I am also going to go
:04:50. > :04:53.with the polls. For Ed Miliband to be hoping to win at this stage, he
:04:54. > :05:01.has got to be way ahead in the polls. Labour needs to be much
:05:02. > :05:05.further ahead if he is going to win so David Cameron, probably the
:05:06. > :05:09.leader of the largest party. Last time after the election David
:05:10. > :05:13.Cameron went to the 1922 committee and announced he was Prime Minister
:05:14. > :05:17.as head of the Coalition. He has agreed this time he will consult
:05:18. > :05:22.them and it will be much more difficult for him to get a
:05:23. > :05:28.coalition. People at home have now concluded there will be a Liberal
:05:29. > :05:33.Democrat landslide! Are we going to have debates? Yes, probably further
:05:34. > :05:40.away from polling day then last time. That is the Liberal Democrat
:05:41. > :05:46.point, isn't it? Yes, it sucks all the life out of the campaign, so the
:05:47. > :05:49.last six weeks will be left to traditional campaigning. What did
:05:50. > :05:59.you make of this in the Sunday Times this morning, this two, three, five
:06:00. > :06:06.formula. There should be a Cameron, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg debate, then
:06:07. > :06:17.there should be another one with them and UKIP and the Greens. It
:06:18. > :06:22.might be testing the patience of the nation to tune into all of those. If
:06:23. > :06:27.you're going to say Nigel Farage should be there, the Green party
:06:28. > :06:33.should be too. They know that as soon as you put them on a podium
:06:34. > :06:38.next to them, he looks like he has equal stature and that is a problem.
:06:39. > :06:43.David Cameron does not want the debates to happen on the way they
:06:44. > :06:48.happened last time. It is generally regarded, Lynton Crosby believes
:06:49. > :06:53.they were a disaster for David Cameron because they allowed Nick
:06:54. > :06:58.Clegg to be the fresh person. He knows he cannot say no to them so
:06:59. > :07:03.the moment you see David Cameron suggesting that Caroline Lucas
:07:04. > :07:07.should be in the debate, you know he is not serious. What he will try to
:07:08. > :07:11.do is have more debates, have them outside the main part of the general
:07:12. > :07:14.election so that it doesn't dominate. The problem the David
:07:15. > :07:21.Cameron is that the campaign will be much longer. It is a five-week
:07:22. > :07:27.campaign so it is quite difficult for him to say we will only have one
:07:28. > :07:30.debate in that campaign. I think smother it with love, hopefully it
:07:31. > :07:36.will go to the courts for him and hopefully they will never happen and
:07:37. > :07:40.he will be delighted. The European election and the local elections are
:07:41. > :07:44.coming up. The three mainstream parties are saying it is a flash in
:07:45. > :07:51.the pan, they don't really matter and so on, but if UKIP comes a
:07:52. > :07:56.strong first, if Labour comes a poor second and the Tories come a poor
:07:57. > :08:02.third, it will have consequences for all three, and the Lib Dems come
:08:03. > :08:06.forth or even fish. It will have consequences and not just in the
:08:07. > :08:09.media but on the ground. One of the big stories is what will happen to
:08:10. > :08:18.the Lib Dems, they face losing all of their MEPs. A good result for
:08:19. > :08:22.them is lit -- in the local elections is losing 250 councillors.
:08:23. > :08:29.These are the most interesting elections we have had for some
:08:30. > :08:32.time. Are we heading for a Nick Clegg summer leadership crisis? I
:08:33. > :08:36.think we are heading towards reversing the clock back to where we
:08:37. > :08:42.were before the Eastleigh by-election. That quiet and things
:08:43. > :08:47.down for Nick Clegg. If they lose all their MEPs, and there is a real
:08:48. > :08:52.chance they will, Vince Cable will be out on manoeuvres because age is
:08:53. > :08:59.not on his side. If he can say Nick Clegg is a loser and a failure, he
:09:00. > :09:14.will be back. Will the Tories go into headless chicken mode if they
:09:15. > :09:21.come third? Yes, if UKIP come first there will not be as much panic as
:09:22. > :09:26.if Labour come first. Is Labour comes a poor second, will there be
:09:27. > :09:30.some pressure on Ed Miliband to reopen his attitude to the
:09:31. > :09:34.referendum? I don't think so and my colleague was talking to Labour
:09:35. > :09:38.sources who said he is absolutely not going to. That is something you
:09:39. > :09:44.can say definitely about him, he decides on a course and he sticks to
:09:45. > :09:49.it. There is one potential upside for David Cameron in a really bad
:09:50. > :09:53.Conservative results, it could strengthen his hand in the
:09:54. > :09:57.renegotiations of Britain's EU membership because he doesn't even
:09:58. > :10:05.need to say to Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande it is there. David
:10:06. > :10:10.Cameron hasn't just been fighting for his party into the local
:10:11. > :10:12.elections. He also got his knuckles wrapped by the Speaker, John Bercow,
:10:13. > :10:19.at Prime Minister's Question Time, for talking for too long. Take a
:10:20. > :10:25.look at this. There is a better future ahead of us but we must not
:10:26. > :10:30.go backward to the policies that put us in this mess in the first place.
:10:31. > :10:48.I don't know what they are paying him, Mr Speaker. Order, order. I
:10:49. > :10:51.haven't finished! In response to that question, the Prime Minister
:10:52. > :10:59.has finished and he can take it from me that he has finished. I can't
:11:00. > :11:05.remember a speaker ever speaking to a Prime Minister like that. Clearly
:11:06. > :11:10.in that case, John Bercow crossed a line. It is Prime Minister 's
:11:11. > :11:15.questions, he is entitled to answer the questions. There is really bad
:11:16. > :11:21.blood between those two, going back a long way. They hate each other and
:11:22. > :11:27.the worrying thing about that was the look of triumphalism on the
:11:28. > :11:30.speaker's face afterwards. He is a remarkable, revolutionary speaker
:11:31. > :11:35.who has made the House of Commons more relevant, he is holding the
:11:36. > :11:40.executive to account, but that look on his face showed he had crossed
:11:41. > :11:44.the line. Does he survive after the next election? He has improved the
:11:45. > :11:51.importance of the Commons, is that enough to keep him in the Speaker 's
:11:52. > :11:57.chair? The most public bit of the Commons is still the Prime Minister
:11:58. > :12:01.'s questions, and we can conclude that John Bercow's interventions
:12:02. > :12:08.take more time than any delays he complains about so I wouldn't be
:12:09. > :12:16.surprised if, in a few years' time, someone else replaces him. He is
:12:17. > :12:22.quite popular with Labour, is he not? Yes, he is married to a Labour
:12:23. > :12:27.activist and is notably sympathetic to Labour but I think this is a
:12:28. > :12:32.difficult situation. David Cameron also overstepped the line. As soon
:12:33. > :12:38.as the speaker says order, the idea is that the House was to order and
:12:39. > :12:44.David Cameron pushed him. They are both trying to score points off each
:12:45. > :12:51.other. We cover Prime Minister 's questions every week on the daily
:12:52. > :12:55.politics, and there is a danger that he sees it as an opportunity to do
:12:56. > :13:00.some grandstanding. You slightly sends his vanity gets the better of
:13:01. > :13:04.him. It is supposed to be Prime Minister 's questions. At the end of
:13:05. > :13:10.that session, the Speaker read out a statement from the Chief clerk, and
:13:11. > :13:15.immensely respected figure, saying he is taking early retirement. It is
:13:16. > :13:19.pretty clear that the reason he has decided to go early is because he is
:13:20. > :13:22.finding it tricky to maintain a cordial relationship with the
:13:23. > :13:27.speaker, and the speaker might want to think about his man management
:13:28. > :13:30.skills. That's all for today. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC
:13:31. > :13:34.Two at lunchtime from Tuesday onwards. Remember, it is a bank
:13:35. > :13:37.holiday tomorrow. I'll be back here at 11am next week. Remember - if
:13:38. > :13:42.it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.