:00:38. > :00:43.David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers
:00:44. > :00:47.over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.
:00:48. > :00:53.And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.
:00:54. > :00:57.We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live
:00:58. > :01:01.Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?
:01:02. > :01:04.David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist
:01:05. > :01:14.But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?
:01:15. > :01:16.Here's to the quarter of a million votes.
:01:17. > :01:21.And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with
:01:22. > :01:28.a pint down the pub and how their success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.
:01:29. > :01:30.On the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire:
:01:31. > :01:32.Could we see a new political partnership?
:01:33. > :01:35.Why some senior Tories belidve the party should form a pact with UKIP.
:01:36. > :01:43.Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?
:01:44. > :01:46.And with me our panel of top political journalists,
:01:47. > :01:49.who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee
:01:50. > :01:51.and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme
:01:52. > :01:56.This morning's political news is dominated
:01:57. > :01:59.by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and
:02:00. > :02:03.The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior
:02:04. > :02:05.Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling
:02:06. > :02:12.The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of
:02:13. > :02:16.investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham
:02:17. > :02:19.where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken
:02:20. > :02:26.Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office
:02:27. > :02:29.was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.
:02:30. > :02:33.He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.
:02:34. > :02:34.In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,
:02:35. > :02:37."why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people
:02:38. > :02:44.Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the
:02:45. > :02:51.An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.
:02:52. > :02:54.Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's
:02:55. > :02:59.Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning
:03:00. > :03:05.this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.
:03:06. > :03:07.There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,
:03:08. > :03:10.which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.
:03:11. > :03:12.There will be discipline in the Government.
:03:13. > :03:18.The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.
:03:19. > :03:24.The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that s
:03:25. > :03:43.put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.
:03:44. > :03:53.Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she
:03:54. > :04:00.has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael
:04:01. > :04:07.Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during
:04:08. > :04:13.13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an
:04:14. > :04:23.act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website
:04:24. > :04:26.and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of
:04:27. > :04:32.conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a
:04:33. > :04:38.leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a
:04:39. > :04:43.vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In
:04:44. > :04:49.the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.
:04:50. > :04:54.She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is
:04:55. > :04:59.interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse
:05:00. > :05:05.differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is
:05:06. > :05:10.tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.
:05:11. > :05:16.Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the
:05:17. > :05:22.politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is
:05:23. > :05:26.deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but
:05:27. > :05:31.replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in
:05:32. > :05:36.ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that
:05:37. > :05:39.ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the
:05:40. > :05:45.Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with
:05:46. > :05:50.Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick
:05:51. > :05:56.Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and
:05:57. > :06:04.criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the
:06:05. > :06:13.Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is
:06:14. > :06:18.fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What
:06:19. > :06:25.separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The
:06:26. > :06:29.view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic
:06:30. > :06:35.extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is
:06:36. > :06:40.criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour
:06:41. > :06:44.government introduced to do with the previous Labour government
:06:45. > :06:50.introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people
:06:51. > :06:55.and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous
:06:56. > :06:57.home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in
:06:58. > :07:03.the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has
:07:04. > :07:08.used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the
:07:09. > :07:11.swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very
:07:12. > :07:17.swamp. I think Theresa May 's view those emotions and create many more
:07:18. > :07:20.swamp. I think Theresa May 's view extremists the process. Michael Gove
:07:21. > :07:24.would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech
:07:25. > :07:27.the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2 11
:07:28. > :07:29.when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists
:07:30. > :07:46.warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system
:07:47. > :07:51.is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.
:07:52. > :07:54.Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.
:07:55. > :08:04.Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of
:08:05. > :08:09.their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents
:08:10. > :08:12.in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political
:08:13. > :08:16.infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the
:08:17. > :08:22.resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs
:08:23. > :08:26.to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.
:08:27. > :08:30.There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for
:08:31. > :08:35.four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact
:08:36. > :08:39.that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on
:08:40. > :08:44.for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much
:08:45. > :08:48.stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations
:08:49. > :08:53.like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the
:08:54. > :09:03.Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the
:09:04. > :09:07.leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an
:09:08. > :09:12.overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We
:09:13. > :09:16.want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate
:09:17. > :09:21.themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which
:09:22. > :09:25.makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to
:09:26. > :09:32.be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted
:09:33. > :09:37.curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an
:09:38. > :09:42.education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender
:09:43. > :09:49.segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender
:09:50. > :09:55.segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling
:09:56. > :09:59.Where you have a state education system, which is about gender
:10:00. > :10:03.equality between boys and girls and there is an unofficial policy of
:10:04. > :10:08.gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be
:10:09. > :10:14.tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We
:10:15. > :10:20.do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years
:10:21. > :10:25.ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like
:10:26. > :10:31.tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do
:10:32. > :10:36.think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to
:10:37. > :10:41.inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to
:10:42. > :10:48.be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy
:10:49. > :10:52.sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning
:10:53. > :10:55.as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of
:10:56. > :10:59.Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools
:11:00. > :11:02.were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They
:11:03. > :11:08.were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an
:11:09. > :11:11.academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within
:11:12. > :11:15.Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school
:11:16. > :11:24.standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we
:11:25. > :11:31.get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking
:11:32. > :11:36.to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme
:11:37. > :11:44.which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and
:11:45. > :11:52.fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a
:11:53. > :11:57.desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an
:11:58. > :12:09.increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr
:12:10. > :12:18.Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for
:12:19. > :12:23.gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in
:12:24. > :12:27.since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We
:12:28. > :12:35.note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected
:12:36. > :12:42.head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and
:12:43. > :12:45.what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about
:12:46. > :12:49.fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of
:12:50. > :12:56.schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You
:12:57. > :13:05.mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence
:13:06. > :13:09.for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group
:13:10. > :13:15.dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about
:13:16. > :13:19.schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in
:13:20. > :13:26.Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of
:13:27. > :13:30.multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic
:13:31. > :13:33.education, the role of faith schools. I will say to you this
:13:34. > :13:38.morning that Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party,
:13:39. > :13:49.the Department for Education were all involved in this conversation.
:13:50. > :13:52.In 2010, ministers were warned about potential radicalisation of schools
:13:53. > :13:58.and they fell to act. We need to know why, for years on, they allowed
:13:59. > :14:02.this situation to exacerbate. When you look at the record of labour and
:14:03. > :14:07.this government 's record, there are plenty of examples where both of you
:14:08. > :14:11.fail to act. Would it not be better to drop the party politics and get
:14:12. > :14:19.together to confront this problem for the sake of the children? There
:14:20. > :14:23.are a number of reports going on in Birmingham. Some are led by the city
:14:24. > :14:28.council, some by the Department for Education. Labour MPs this morning
:14:29. > :14:32.have come forward with the Bishop of Birmingham talking about faith in
:14:33. > :14:36.schools. If you have a minister failing to do their job, if you have
:14:37. > :14:41.a minister being given warnings in 2010 and failing to act on them for
:14:42. > :14:44.four years, the opposition has a role to hold the executive to
:14:45. > :14:49.account. This is about the safety and standards of teaching for pupils
:14:50. > :14:53.in Birmingham schools. It is about a great education for these young
:14:54. > :14:58.people so they can succeed in a modern, multicultural Britain. Do
:14:59. > :15:05.you agree with your Shadow Cabinet colleague, Rachel Reeves, that
:15:06. > :15:12.Labour' as core voters are abandoning the party? She was
:15:13. > :15:17.building on what Ed said the day after the elections in Berwick. We
:15:18. > :15:20.have to make sure those communities who we historically represent regard
:15:21. > :15:25.Labour as having a successful message for them. I am passionate
:15:26. > :15:29.about making sure we have great vocational and technical education,
:15:30. > :15:37.the great academic education in our schools. If we have more work to do
:15:38. > :15:39.to get people to the polling booths, we must do that. We must
:15:40. > :15:48.with listen to what she says. David Cameron has staked a lot on
:15:49. > :15:51.stopping the former PM of Luxembourg - named by one newspaper as 'the
:15:52. > :15:54.most dangerous man in Europe' because of his federalist views -
:15:55. > :15:57.from becoming the next president Mr Cameron has reportedly described
:15:58. > :16:04.Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from the 80s who cannot solve the
:16:05. > :16:07.problems of the next five years . But with the German Chancellor
:16:08. > :16:10.Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr Juncker, it's not a dead cert that
:16:11. > :16:13.Mr Cameron can stop his appointment. This is what he had to say at the G7
:16:14. > :16:23.summit earlier this week: It is important that we have people
:16:24. > :16:27.running the institutions of Europe who understand the need for change
:16:28. > :16:32.and reform. I would argue that view is widely shared amongst other heads
:16:33. > :16:36.of government and heads of state in the European Union. I am clear what
:16:37. > :16:41.I want to achieve for Britain's future, to secure Britain's placed
:16:42. > :16:45.in a reformed European Union and I have a strategy for delivering
:16:46. > :16:48.that, a strategy for dealing with an issue which I think if we walk away
:16:49. > :16:50.from it would see Britain drift towards the exits.
:16:51. > :16:53.We've been joined from Berlin by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is
:16:54. > :16:56.a senior figure in the EPP - that's the party backing Mr Juncker.
:16:57. > :17:01.He's also Chairman of the Union of European Federalists.
:17:02. > :17:05.And in our Newcastle newsroom is the former Conservative MEP Martin
:17:06. > :17:08.Callanan who until last month led the European Conservatives
:17:09. > :17:16.and Reformists group in Brussels. Welcome to you both.
:17:17. > :17:24.The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary, they don't want Mr Junker, the new
:17:25. > :17:32.Italian Prime Minister doesn't look keen either, should he bow out
:17:33. > :17:37.gracefully? First of all, he wants to have Mr Junker but he wants to
:17:38. > :17:44.have his conditions. Will he become president of the European Council, a
:17:45. > :17:48.high representative? It is a discussion to be had in the next
:17:49. > :17:54.three or four weeks until the European Parliament can elect the
:17:55. > :17:58.president of the European Council after the proposal of the European
:17:59. > :18:03.Council, which has to be done after consultation with the Parliament in
:18:04. > :18:11.the light of the European elections and by a majority vote. If not Mr
:18:12. > :18:15.Junker, then who? There are many available candidates, I am not going
:18:16. > :18:23.to mention them in front of someone so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us
:18:24. > :18:28.one name that you would prefer? The prime Minister of Sweden, Christine
:18:29. > :18:34.Lagarde, the minister from Lithuania, these are people who have
:18:35. > :18:41.a record of old reform. Junker is the ultimate Europe insider. We need
:18:42. > :18:46.radical inform. We need to respond to the message the electorate gave
:18:47. > :18:51.us in the elections -- radical reform. Junker said he had to lie in
:18:52. > :18:55.public, he allowed the security services to conduct a dirty tricks
:18:56. > :19:00.campaign against his opponent. This is not who we want leading the
:19:01. > :19:03.European Commission. Elmar Brok since the European voters have sent
:19:04. > :19:07.a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status
:19:08. > :19:14.quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?
:19:15. > :19:24.First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks
:19:25. > :19:30.against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man
:19:31. > :19:36.who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro
:19:37. > :19:39.group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the
:19:40. > :19:43.financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible
:19:44. > :19:48.financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who
:19:49. > :19:53.works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in
:19:54. > :19:58.Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government But
:19:59. > :20:02.we need Europe more and he is not a man from the 80s. He is a man of
:20:03. > :20:06.this century and in this century he made his own policy. He is the
:20:07. > :20:10.winner of the European elections, he has a majority will stop Mrs
:20:11. > :20:15.LANguard is not running because she knows she will not get the majority
:20:16. > :20:22.in the European Parliament. -- Christine Lagarde is not running. It
:20:23. > :20:29.is the Council of minister is that decides. No, the European Parliament
:20:30. > :20:33.has the final word. The European Council can make a proposal by
:20:34. > :20:34.majority in the light of the European elections after
:20:35. > :20:39.consultation with the European Parliament. The council cannot get a
:20:40. > :20:46.candidate against the will of the European Parliament. Mr Junker has a
:20:47. > :20:50.majority in the European Parliament. Theoretically he is right, the
:20:51. > :20:53.Parliament has do vote on the candidates proposed by the council.
:20:54. > :20:58.I want to challenge the view that somehow he won the European
:20:59. > :21:02.elections. There is no provision for Jean Claude Junker to stand in the
:21:03. > :21:06.elections. He is saying that the EEP party got the most number of seats
:21:07. > :21:10.in the Parliament but none of the electorate knew they were taking
:21:11. > :21:13.part in this election. How many people who voted Labour in the
:21:14. > :21:18.United Kingdom realised that their vote would count towards a German
:21:19. > :21:25.socialist to be a candidate for the commission of presidency is a
:21:26. > :21:28.nonsensical proposal. The elections were 28 individual elections with
:21:29. > :21:32.hundreds of parties across Europe. To try to claim there is a
:21:33. > :21:34.democratic mandate for somebody nobody has heard from Luxembourg to
:21:35. > :21:52.take over the commission is a nonsense. People should know him, if
:21:53. > :21:55.I should say that ironically. Newspapers talking about members of
:21:56. > :22:04.the family of his wife with Nazi links... What is the answer to
:22:05. > :22:07.Martin Callinan's point? I think it is clear that British Conservatives
:22:08. > :22:12.have no candidate because they are not a broad European family, they
:22:13. > :22:16.have not impacted on the selection of top candidates but it is a form
:22:17. > :22:23.of isolation of the British Tory Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr
:22:24. > :22:27.Junker is appointed it could lead to Britain drifting towards the EU
:22:28. > :22:32.exit, is that credible? Is it melodramatic? It is true that we
:22:33. > :22:35.want to renegotiate the relationship. We want some serious
:22:36. > :22:41.reform in Europe so the people who vote in a referendum will be able to
:22:42. > :22:47.vote to stay in if that is what they want. We need a bold reformer,
:22:48. > :22:53.somebody prepared to engage. That is not anti the interests of the UK. We
:22:54. > :22:55.need to recognise there is a problem with public perception of the
:22:56. > :22:58.European Union. Elmar Brok is proud to be one of the last bastions of
:22:59. > :23:02.federalism that that is not where most of the public opinion is in
:23:03. > :23:08.Europe. I understand why he wants his man installed but we need to
:23:09. > :23:14.take into account the message of the letter -- the electorate. 25% of the
:23:15. > :23:20.publishing of France were prepared to vote for an openly racist party.
:23:21. > :23:26.We can't just ignore the signal that the electorate were sending us. If
:23:27. > :23:30.enthusiasm for federalism was at an all-time low, it would be a slap in
:23:31. > :23:37.the face for the voters of Europe to have a federalist as the president,
:23:38. > :23:42.would it not? 70, 80% of the members of the European Parliament, selected
:23:43. > :23:46.by their people, are pro-Europeans. These are the winners of the
:23:47. > :23:49.European elections. Even in France, a majority of voters have voted
:23:50. > :23:53.pro-European and that should be clear, not to make this a populist
:23:54. > :24:05.thing which is not only to do with Europe. And we want to have a Europe
:24:06. > :24:11.which is strong, the member states should do their things. We do not
:24:12. > :24:15.want to have a European centralism, we do not want a European state
:24:16. > :24:19.This is not at stake. Let's talk about the question of better
:24:20. > :24:23.governance, let's talk about what was wrong in the past, we have to
:24:24. > :24:28.become better, to change our programme in that question. That
:24:29. > :24:35.should be the way we lead to come to positive results. Thank you for
:24:36. > :24:38.that. Before we go, there is a British commissioner that needs to
:24:39. > :24:43.be appointed to Brussels, do you like the sound of that? These are
:24:44. > :24:49.matters for the Prime Minister, I am sure he has many excellent
:24:50. > :24:57.candidates. Do you like the sound of it? Like previous British
:24:58. > :25:01.commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil clinic, I have just lost an election
:25:02. > :25:07.-- Neil Kinnock for the everybody who is asked would serve, I'm sure.
:25:08. > :25:10.Just days ago UKIP were celebrating topping the poll in the European
:25:11. > :25:16.They're claiming they'd have had two more MEPs
:25:17. > :25:19.and the Greens two fewer had another party not confused the electorate.
:25:20. > :25:22.What's more UKIP say it's the fault of the body
:25:23. > :25:25.which was set up to oversee elections - the Electoral Commission
:25:26. > :25:38.This is a party celebrating success at the European elections. They
:25:39. > :25:44.didn't win a single MEP but nationally polled 250,000 votes
:25:45. > :25:48.They are an independence from Europe, mostly people who were once
:25:49. > :26:07.in UKIP, and that is rather the point. They may look like capers,
:26:08. > :26:15.drink like capers, sound like capers -- -- sound like kippers, but they
:26:16. > :26:18.are not. The name and the logo were displayed on this banner when the
:26:19. > :26:24.party launched its campaign. UKIP suggest the look, the wording and
:26:25. > :26:29.the inclusion of UK in now confused voters, and are looking at rewriting
:26:30. > :26:33.such a wrong. The way that seats are allocated in a European election
:26:34. > :26:39.under a proportional representation system is using this formula. It was
:26:40. > :26:46.invented by a Belgian mathematician in 1878 and it is essentially this.
:26:47. > :26:50.When all of the votes have been tallied up, the one with the most
:26:51. > :26:53.seats gets the first MEPC in a region. The others are allocated
:26:54. > :27:03.using votes cast divided by the number of seats gained plus one --
:27:04. > :27:08.first MEP seat in a region. UKIP were concerned with South West and
:27:09. > :27:12.London. There they say, when the last MEP seats were being allocated,
:27:13. > :27:16.if everyone who had voted for an independence from Europe had meant
:27:17. > :27:20.to vote for UKIP and you tallied their votes up, and added them to
:27:21. > :27:28.UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in each region and the greens would
:27:29. > :27:31.have lost them. Whether you can prove that voters did that by
:27:32. > :27:38.mistake is a very different matter. UKIP may have to just chalk it up to
:27:39. > :27:43.experience. It has happened before, back in the European elections of
:27:44. > :27:49.1994. Then in England under the first past the post system. This
:27:50. > :27:51.man, Richard Huggett, decided to stand as a little Democrat and
:27:52. > :27:58.polled a significant number of votes. The Liberal Democrat
:27:59. > :28:05.candidate at the time is now an MP. Many people voted and afterwards
:28:06. > :28:09.realised that they had bubbly voted for -- probably voted for a little
:28:10. > :28:16.Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as they had been intending to do -
:28:17. > :28:24.bubbly voted for a literal Democrat -- probably voted.
:28:25. > :28:31.Mr Sanders got some consolation In 1998, laws came into rule on
:28:32. > :28:34.so-called spoiler tactics and the Electoral Commission was
:28:35. > :28:37.established. The Electoral Commission are based on the seventh
:28:38. > :28:41.floor of this building and they did look into this issue prior to
:28:42. > :28:44.voting. They have given us a statement that reveals the
:28:45. > :28:48.conclusion they came to, part of which says, we decided that the name
:28:49. > :28:53.of the party, and its description are sufficiently different to those
:28:54. > :28:58.registered by the UK Independence Party, UKIP, to mean, in our
:28:59. > :29:01.opinion, that voters were not likely to be confused if they appeared on
:29:02. > :29:09.the same ballot paper. Pretty conclusive stuff. Back at the pub,
:29:10. > :29:13.were an independence from Europe just being crafty, or do UKIP need
:29:14. > :29:19.to wake up and smell the flowers? We attack them in all areas. An
:29:20. > :29:22.independent study for Anglo Netherlands because I was involved
:29:23. > :29:27.in the Dutch -- with the Dutch member of Parliament and the
:29:28. > :29:32.description was UK Independence now, nobody has a monopoly on the word
:29:33. > :29:39.independence. I have been fighting for independence since I started in
:29:40. > :29:42.1994, before I joined UKIP. The party tell me they will stand again
:29:43. > :29:49.at the general election next year. The ironies not lost on them or the
:29:50. > :29:50.major parties of UKIP complaining that a smaller party has been taking
:29:51. > :29:59.votes of them. Joining me now to discuss
:30:00. > :30:03.this story is Gawain Towler. He's the UKIP candidate for the
:30:04. > :30:06.South West region, who failed to get And in our Bristol studios is
:30:07. > :30:22.the victorious Green MEP for How many of the 23,000 votes that
:30:23. > :30:26.were cast for the Independence party were meant for you? Impossible to
:30:27. > :30:32.tell. I want to congratulate Molly for getting elected. They are the
:30:33. > :30:39.breaks. I do not think there is a purpose in complaining about boats
:30:40. > :30:47.that are cast. Do you think you would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.
:30:48. > :30:50.You have to look at the would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.
:30:51. > :30:53.You have to look boats for parties people have not heard of and those
:30:54. > :31:00.with a long tradition that people have heard of. I do not think there
:31:01. > :31:06.is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled ballot papers, the amount of people
:31:07. > :31:12.who had voted at the top and the bottom, most people are not anoraks,
:31:13. > :31:26.they say, they are the people I want. They know what they are after.
:31:27. > :31:35.I think it is at least told. It is said you owe your seat to And
:31:36. > :31:39.Independence Party. It is strange for a man to say he could represent
:31:40. > :31:46.people in the south-west better than me. There has been outpouring of
:31:47. > :31:53.delight that a Green MP has finally been elected. A number of people
:31:54. > :31:56.have been saying they have been voting all their lives and it is the
:31:57. > :32:02.first time they have elected anybody. I am glad to represent them
:32:03. > :32:08.in a significant legislature. What would you say to that? I find it
:32:09. > :32:15.strange. I am perfectly happy for her to be elected. I feel the
:32:16. > :32:22.electoral commission has questions to answer. But, congratulations to
:32:23. > :32:25.Molly. Why do you want an extra seat for the Greens in the European
:32:26. > :32:32.Parliament but your national share of the vote actually fell. We did
:32:33. > :32:35.come under pressure nationally. If he is complaining about the role the
:32:36. > :32:41.election commission said we could stand, the rule we were not happy
:32:42. > :32:45.with was the off, ruling which said we were not a main party. We got
:32:46. > :32:52.significantly less media time and that is why our belt actually fell.
:32:53. > :33:00.Not on the Daily Politics or the Sunday Politics, where you were well
:33:01. > :33:08.represented. Was it a problem for UKIP in other parts of the country?
:33:09. > :33:22.Only in London. What do you think happened there? Very much the same.
:33:23. > :33:25.I do not think there is any doubt, the number of people we have had
:33:26. > :33:30.getting in touch saying, I am really sorry, I made a mess, that they
:33:31. > :33:35.voted for the wrong party. They are the breaks. Politics is politics.
:33:36. > :33:43.What I would like to see and what is reasonable, and I hope Molly would
:33:44. > :33:47.agree, there needs to be a reform - a serious reform of the Electoral
:33:48. > :33:51.Commission. There is no appeal process. They say it is not
:33:52. > :33:59.confusing. Lets see if she thinks that. I make it a policy never to
:34:00. > :34:03.agree with UKIP. What is important to note, if you look at the votes
:34:04. > :34:07.and the way the votes fell out and the seats fell out in the
:34:08. > :34:12.south-west, it is difficult for an Electoral Commission to turn boats
:34:13. > :34:18.into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote and 33% of the seats. For them, the
:34:19. > :34:24.system worked very well in the south-west. Nationally, Greens did
:34:25. > :34:29.not get represented as the vote share would require. That is because
:34:30. > :34:33.you get very small number of seats in the different regions and you
:34:34. > :34:37.have to reach a high threshold. The Green Party has a right to complain
:34:38. > :34:40.about the level of seats we have ended up with. White rapper you have
:34:41. > :34:47.complaints about the Electoral Commission? We need to move to a
:34:48. > :34:54.proportional system for elections generally. If we poll around 7% 8%,
:34:55. > :34:58.we should be looking at having 0, 40 seats in the national
:34:59. > :35:01.legislature. We need to consider proportional representation for
:35:02. > :35:06.national elections. Do you accept the ballot paper may have confused
:35:07. > :35:12.some people? I think what happened is that some people in UKIP were
:35:13. > :35:16.very worried. Worried about the rightward move of UKIP and the
:35:17. > :35:22.authoritarian leadership of Nigel Farage. He set up a separate party.
:35:23. > :35:30.That is what happens in politics, particularly when parties are led by
:35:31. > :35:38.demagogues and are not focused on Democratic policy. Do you have any
:35:39. > :35:45.legal redress to this? None whatsoever. Have you had legal
:35:46. > :35:51.advice? I am told there is no redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly
:35:52. > :35:56.does not agree with UKIP on anything so, if we say the sun rises in the
:35:57. > :36:03.morning, she probably will disagree with that. If, at the next election,
:36:04. > :36:11.there is a party called the Grown Party, will she then complain? There
:36:12. > :36:16.needs to be some level of accountability and, without that,
:36:17. > :36:20.one wonders what is going on. We have an organisation with enormous
:36:21. > :36:27.and important power and influence which is setup to stop this of thing
:36:28. > :36:31.going on. It has failed. Not has it has failed. Not present served in
:36:32. > :36:35.Tower Hamlets and there have been massive problems with postal votes.
:36:36. > :36:41.It is failing on almost everything it is supposed to do. Just to go
:36:42. > :36:46.back for a final point from Molly. Should there be a right of appeal to
:36:47. > :36:49.the rulings of the Electoral Commission? You need to have an
:36:50. > :36:54.authoritative body that makes decisions in this area and we have
:36:55. > :36:59.the Electoral Commission. It is about being sore losers on the part
:37:00. > :37:05.of UKIP. I am delighted to represent people in the South West. Should
:37:06. > :37:08.there be a right of appeal or not? You need an authoritative body and
:37:09. > :37:10.the Electoral Commission is that. I do not think it should have a right
:37:11. > :37:12.to appeal. We say goodbye to viewers
:37:13. > :37:17.in Scotland, who leave us now Hello.
:37:18. > :37:47.we'll be discussing extremism You are watching the Sunday Politics
:37:48. > :37:49.for Yorkshire and Lincolnshhre. Could we see
:37:50. > :37:51.a new political partnership? Why some senior Tories belidve
:37:52. > :37:54.the party should form an electoral pact with UKIP
:37:55. > :37:57.in a bid to reconnect the rhght And we will be taking
:37:58. > :37:59.the temperature of Yorkshire?s Liberal Democrats now
:38:00. > :38:02.the dust has settled on another set First, let's say hello to
:38:03. > :38:07.our guests today. The Labour MP for Hull North
:38:08. > :38:10.and Shadow Home Office Minister The Liberal Democrat MP for
:38:11. > :38:13.Bradford East, David Ward. And the Conservative MP
:38:14. > :38:15.for Cleethorpes, Martin Vickers First, could we see a pact
:38:16. > :38:19.between the Conservatives and UKIP One senior Tory MP from Lincolnshire
:38:20. > :38:23.has told us the two parties should agred not to
:38:24. > :38:27.fight each other in some se`ts The recent success of UKIP
:38:28. > :38:35.in the local and European elections was widely interpreted
:38:36. > :38:37.as a protest vote against But according to senior
:38:38. > :38:46.Conservative Sir Edward Leigh, it's his party that has
:38:47. > :38:49.the most to lose if UKIP do well In a first past the post system
:38:50. > :38:53.it is death Just as it would be death
:38:54. > :38:58.for the left to be divided. The Labour Party split in h`lf and
:38:59. > :39:05.there was a Conservative landslide. A formal pact might be posshble
:39:06. > :39:10.but informal relationships coupled with the fact that we reasstre
:39:11. > :39:14.our traditional voters that we really are Conservative,
:39:15. > :39:20.and I think we have a chancd This couple are Conservativd voters
:39:21. > :39:28.who live in Sir Edward Leigh?s How do they feel about the Tories
:39:29. > :39:34.forming an alliance with UKHP? I think that Nigel Farage is putting
:39:35. > :39:37.on an image that is not suitable You don't think David Cameron
:39:38. > :39:43.should do a deal with them? You don't think he should do
:39:44. > :39:59.a deal? Nigel Farage has consistently ruled
:40:00. > :40:02.out forming This is what he said
:40:03. > :40:06.in a recent interview. UKIP is a different party whth
:40:07. > :40:10.a different manifesto and wd are The Newark by`election,
:40:11. > :40:16.and the Conservatives hold onto the Sir Edward Leigh believes Tory
:40:17. > :40:23.voters have been put off by coalition policies such
:40:24. > :40:27.as same sex marriage. I think it was a great mist`ke
:40:28. > :40:30.to bring in gay marriage. Some future Labour government
:40:31. > :40:35.would have done it. But it is done now,
:40:36. > :40:40.we're not going to undo it. But I would think that some senior
:40:41. > :40:42.Conservative Minister could at least apologise to some of our older
:40:43. > :40:45.traditional supporters who value their traditional old`fashioned view
:40:46. > :40:49.of marriage that we are sorry that I don't agree with gay marrhage
:40:50. > :40:54.I voted against it, it is done now, but I would think somebody `t
:40:55. > :40:57.the top of the party could `pologise for the hurt it has caused,
:40:58. > :41:00.especially to religious people. We have already seen one unlikely
:41:01. > :41:02.political marriage in Many will speculate
:41:03. > :41:09.whether we will see another What do you make
:41:10. > :41:16.of those suggestions? You will form a pact with UKIP
:41:17. > :41:36.and agree not to fight each other Well, it would be nice in theory. I
:41:37. > :41:45.was talking to UKIP councillors last night, reminding them that ht was
:41:46. > :41:50.the 35th anniversary of the referendum in 1975. I have been
:41:51. > :41:55.consistent with my views. It is a bit of a pointless exercise. UKIP
:41:56. > :42:02.competing against me for thd same votes. The reality is that the main
:42:03. > :42:10.parties are going to have a candidate in every seat. I think it
:42:11. > :42:16.is up to UKIP to decide who it is best to leave unopposed. Wotld you
:42:17. > :42:19.welcome some sort of local arrangement between the parties were
:42:20. > :42:23.you would agree not to fight each other? It is not going to h`ppen.
:42:24. > :42:31.The main parties will have ` candidate in every seat. Dods the
:42:32. > :42:38.prospect of some sort of alliance worry you? That would potentially
:42:39. > :42:43.make them stronger together? We know the Conservatives are having a hard
:42:44. > :42:48.time in the North are getting votes. Where there join up with UKHP or
:42:49. > :42:53.not. In the 2010 election, there was a packed them between some TKIP
:42:54. > :42:59.candidates and Conservative candidates. Nigel Farage saxs it
:43:00. > :43:05.will not happen. Let's see whether it does. We know he changes his mind
:43:06. > :43:12.all the time. He ripped up his last manifesto in 2010. If there was a
:43:13. > :43:17.packed with UKIP, that would rule out any future coalition with the
:43:18. > :43:23.Liberal Democrats, surely? What you can see with Suresh Bernard Lee is
:43:24. > :43:34.what we have saved the nation from. I am delighted we are able to do
:43:35. > :43:41.that. `` Sir Edward Leigh. H cannot see the Tory party standing down in
:43:42. > :43:45.favour of a UKIP candidate. What do you make of those comments? He
:43:46. > :43:51.mentioned that the government should apologise for the upset caused by
:43:52. > :43:56.gay marriage? The gay marri`ge issue was a blunder, to be honest, for a
:43:57. > :44:01.Conservative government to be taking the lead on. It upset a gre`t number
:44:02. > :44:07.of our core supporters, as Ddwards said. I think I am right in saying
:44:08. > :44:10.the majority of the parliamdntary party actually voted against the
:44:11. > :44:14.legislation. I believe therd should have been a mandate for it `nd it
:44:15. > :44:24.should have been included in a manifesto and not just taking people
:44:25. > :44:29.by surprise. Do you accept that there are many voters who are
:44:30. > :44:33.socially conservative but they don't feel represented by the main
:44:34. > :44:40.Westminster parties when it comes to issues such as Same Sex Marriage
:44:41. > :44:47.Bill? The issue is, if you don't want it, don't enter into a Same Sex
:44:48. > :44:55.Marriage Bill anyone. I am pleased this has gone through Parli`ment.
:44:56. > :45:02.All parties are suffering from the voters in the country not fdeling
:45:03. > :45:15.that the trust politicians. We know that the expenses scandal w`s a big
:45:16. > :45:21.problem. I am pleased Ed Miliband has been talking about big hssues
:45:22. > :45:31.such as the cost of living, the bills people are having to pay and
:45:32. > :45:37.employment. UKIP are now thd party of protests and have stolen your
:45:38. > :45:41.thunder in that respect? Ond of the reasons that will not be a formal
:45:42. > :45:46.agreement is because it is very unpredictable. You cannot sde where
:45:47. > :45:52.UKIP will take the votes from. We have seen in some quite
:45:53. > :45:59.working`class areas the Labour vote has been badly affected by TKIP It
:46:00. > :46:18.is not the basis for any de`l. UKIP got 25% of the vote in half. `` in
:46:19. > :46:24.Hull. All the councillors in Hull know that we have a job to dngage
:46:25. > :46:29.with the electorate about some of the issues they feel left bdhind on.
:46:30. > :46:33.Part of the UKIP narrative hs to appeal to groups who are left behind
:46:34. > :46:37.for all parties have to start talking to everybody in our society,
:46:38. > :46:44.not just perhaps those who normally votes. Immigration is a key issue.
:46:45. > :46:49.No political party going into the next general election withott a
:46:50. > :46:58.robust position on immigrathon will succeed. I accept that. It hs the
:46:59. > :47:02.key issue for the majority of people. We need to give thel an
:47:03. > :47:06.assurance that we are going to deal with the issue. I agree with Diana
:47:07. > :47:11.that both the main parties have lost touch with their core support. We
:47:12. > :47:16.have tried to broaden their appeal. In the process, they have ldft
:47:17. > :47:17.people behind. A vacuum has been created and UKIP have steppdd into
:47:18. > :47:20.that. The Liberal Democrats? sixth place
:47:21. > :47:25.in the Newark by`election, losing their deposit,
:47:26. > :47:29.capped off a pretty rotten couple How do the Lib Dems recover after
:47:30. > :47:34.losing yet more councils se`ts and It is here at Sheffield Town Hall
:47:35. > :47:38.where decisions affecting the city have been made
:47:39. > :47:40.for more than a century. Not so long ago,
:47:41. > :47:43.it was the Lib Dems that led the Many may think of South Yorkshire
:47:44. > :47:51.as being predominantly Labotr But here in Sheffield for the last
:47:52. > :48:14.20 years the Liberal Democr`ts Sheffield Hallam is the onlx seat
:48:15. > :48:19.in the region never to have had Two years later, the party `lso
:48:20. > :48:24.took control of the city cotncil. Since then, there has been ` Lab`Lib
:48:25. > :48:28.battle for power at the town hall, This constituency has gone
:48:29. > :48:31.from strength to strength I do hereby declare that Nick Clegg
:48:32. > :48:34.is duly elected... Nick Clegg became the MP here
:48:35. > :48:36.in 2005. Within two years,
:48:37. > :48:38.he was leading the party. Perhaps it was this that helped
:48:39. > :48:41.the Lib Dems retake control Two years after that came
:48:42. > :48:45.the crucial turning point. The left of Labour Lib Dems got
:48:46. > :48:49.in to bed with the Tories to form After 12 months,
:48:50. > :48:55.they lost 10 councillors. Another 12 months
:48:56. > :48:57.and they lost another 10. They are now left with 18 ott of 84,
:48:58. > :49:01.the lowest for 20 years. It is not just Sheffield th`t
:49:02. > :49:17.has seen a drop in support. Hull and Leeds city councils have
:49:18. > :49:19.seen the number of councillors fall by more
:49:20. > :49:23.than half in the last four xears. It is now claimed that Nick Clegg's
:49:24. > :49:25.approval ratings make him the least popular party leader
:49:26. > :49:28.of the modern age. Will brand Clegg prove toxic here
:49:29. > :49:30.in Sheffield too? Joining me now are two people who
:49:31. > :49:33.can help answer that question. The newly elected leader of the
:49:34. > :49:35.Lib Dems in Sheffield. And a student
:49:36. > :49:38.from Sheffield who stood as a city You are the third leader of the Lib
:49:39. > :49:56.Dem group in the last two ydars I certainly hope not. In thd ward I
:49:57. > :50:01.represent, our majority went up from 400 to 800. Across the Sheffield
:50:02. > :50:10.Hallam constituency, we got 38% of the vote. That looks very sdcure.
:50:11. > :50:15.You have been losing councillors. Is their anger on a local level about
:50:16. > :50:21.the decisions that Nick Clegg is making on the top of the party that
:50:22. > :50:25.are having an impact further down? In 2010, we had to form a stable
:50:26. > :50:30.government. The only option was to go into coalition with the
:50:31. > :50:37.Conservatives. The turnaround on tuition fees was a great crhticism.
:50:38. > :50:44.How can Nick Clegg persuade students that what he says is believ`ble He
:50:45. > :50:51.apologised for the tuition fees pledge and recognises the area that
:50:52. > :50:56.was made full `` made. The previous Labour government did not apologise
:50:57. > :51:01.for twice breaking a similar pledge. We are delivering more jobs,
:51:02. > :51:06.securing our environment, more funding for schools as well as a
:51:07. > :51:14.fairer politics. That is wh`t we have delivered. Do you think in the
:51:15. > :51:21.next 11 months the Lib Dems can turn things around? I certainly think we
:51:22. > :51:23.can because people are realhsing that the photos in coalition with
:51:24. > :51:27.the Conservatives things wotld not have been introduced like the
:51:28. > :51:32.?10,000 personal allowance which helps the lower paid. Things like
:51:33. > :51:36.the Pupil Premium in schools. Free school meals for infants. What would
:51:37. > :51:41.have been introduced would have been the Conservative policy of raising
:51:42. > :51:45.inheritance tax threshold is so the rich would have got a pay off there.
:51:46. > :51:50.Schools would have been allowed to make profits. We have been `ble to
:51:51. > :51:56.make sure in government that we have a stronger economy and a fahrer
:51:57. > :52:00.society at the end of this term Thank you to you both. Desphte
:52:01. > :52:09.voices of dissent across thd country from Lib Dems, here in Sheffield,
:52:10. > :52:14.they are standing by their lan. David Ward, there are three Lib Dem
:52:15. > :52:19.MPs in the Yorkshire region including yourself. How manx will be
:52:20. > :52:25.next year? I don't think we will lose the three. It will be difficult
:52:26. > :52:31.to gain on that. When we had our parliamentary meeting, we wdnt round
:52:32. > :52:38.all the MPs and without excdption they said they did pretty wdll. We
:52:39. > :52:42.have to work hard as MPs, btt we also have the opportunity to tell
:52:43. > :52:49.people what we have done and dispel some of the myths and downrhght
:52:50. > :52:53.lies. You have had for years to do that. People are still switching
:52:54. > :53:08.their votes to other parties. In Nick Clegg's constituency, they A1
:53:09. > :53:17.four out of five. `` they one `` one.
:53:18. > :53:31.I think history will look b`ck and say this was the most difficult job
:53:32. > :53:46.anyone in British politics has had. Churchill had it quite tricky.
:53:47. > :53:55.Managing a party where therd are by`elections. The Labour Party
:53:56. > :54:00.battalion hate us because wd are in government with the Tories. The
:54:01. > :54:03.Tories hate us because they want to rule on their own. Surprise
:54:04. > :54:09.surprise, we are going to gdt hammered. If there was a college in
:54:10. > :54:15.government between Labour and the Lib Dems after the next election,
:54:16. > :54:19.would you want to be in it? I want a Labour government in 2015 that can
:54:20. > :54:24.implement the issues we are talking about. I am not interested hn
:54:25. > :54:26.talking about a coalition whth the Liberal Democrats. I find it
:54:27. > :54:30.remarkable that David is talking about the lies that have bedn told
:54:31. > :54:35.about tuition fees. Cheerle`der policy of the Liberal Democrats in
:54:36. > :54:42.2010 was to tuition fees. They came in and triple them. This idda that
:54:43. > :54:45.somehow they have been mitigating force on the Conservative government
:54:46. > :54:53.is just the lonely. They have actually troubled tuition fdes. ``
:54:54. > :54:56.is just nonsense. They supported the dreadful NHS bill. They didn't have
:54:57. > :55:02.to do that. They have sold their principles down the line. This idea
:55:03. > :55:07.that somehow they are the nhce bit of the government is rubbish. This
:55:08. > :55:13.party supports tuition fees. This party supports tuition fees. The
:55:14. > :55:18.majority of MPs in the Housd of Commons supports tuition feds. The
:55:19. > :55:32.lies I am referring to an lhterature which says ?9,000 worth of tradition
:55:33. > :55:43.`` tuition fees. It is a lid that you would need to find ?27,000 for
:55:44. > :55:49.three children. No`one forcdd you to vote for that. The issue is you
:55:50. > :55:53.lying. If we could not abolhsh it, the next aim was to make sure that
:55:54. > :56:07.those from deprived backgrotnds were not affected. How can we abolish
:56:08. > :56:12.them? Do you see the Lib Dels as a coming force on the Conserv`tive
:56:13. > :56:18.Party of the coalition? It hs certainly difficult to see Diana and
:56:19. > :56:25.David in coalition! Clearly I want a Conservative government. Yot have to
:56:26. > :56:30.accept what the outcome of the election is. The problem we will
:56:31. > :56:36.have next year is that we h`ve essentially a 2`party voting
:56:37. > :56:40.system. It can cope with as little intervention `` it can call with a
:56:41. > :56:45.little intervention from thd Lib Dems, but if there is a fourth party
:56:46. > :56:52.such as UKIP, who knows what that will throw up? I sincerely hope we
:56:53. > :56:58.get David Cameron in Downing Street. Let's talk about the Queen's Speech.
:56:59. > :57:03.Labour say it is about what is not in the Queen's Speech. We spoke to
:57:04. > :57:08.Yvette Cooper. She says she was surprised that was not more on
:57:09. > :57:13.immigration. I think people are worried about dodgy employers and
:57:14. > :57:18.agencies who are exploiting cheap migrant labour to undercut local
:57:19. > :57:23.wages and jobs. Maybe pushing people want is you will our contract or
:57:24. > :57:27.employing people illegally. That has to be stopped and dealt with. The
:57:28. > :57:33.Queen's Speech could have done that and they have not. What do xou make
:57:34. > :57:39.about this being a thin Quedn's speech pushed by a zombie
:57:40. > :57:45.government? It is nonsense. I was very happy with the Queen's speech.
:57:46. > :57:51.The focus is clearly on the economy, jobs, growth and so on
:57:52. > :58:02.That will be the final determinant of who wins the general election
:58:03. > :58:06.next year. The only bill th`t I thought had real legs was the
:58:07. > :58:09.modern`day slavery Bill. In terms of what was not in there, nothhng about
:58:10. > :58:13.dealing with the banks, nothing about dealing with employment,
:58:14. > :58:22.nothing about the cost of lhving, nothing about peoples energx bills,
:58:23. > :58:25.so very thin Queen's speech. I think it shows the parties cannot really
:58:26. > :58:32.agree on very much at this stage. The best we get from the Lib Dems is
:58:33. > :58:40.5p on a carrier bag. Some MPs were not happy about the right to recall.
:58:41. > :58:44.This will be the first government to put something in place for the
:58:45. > :58:50.public to recall their MPs hf they feel we have done something wrong.
:58:51. > :58:54.It does not go as far as I would have liked, but let's get it on the
:58:55. > :59:10.statute books. Giving peopld the power to recall is a good start We
:59:11. > :59:16.have had so many atrocious dxamples of misbehaviour by MPs that simply
:59:17. > :59:22.allowed three or four years before you can get rid of an MP I think is
:59:23. > :59:27.unacceptable. We have to be very careful. You cannot have a
:59:28. > :59:30.referendum every now and thdn on the behaviour of an MP because opinions
:59:31. > :59:35.swing from one side to another. The threshold at which they can be
:59:36. > :59:43.triggered is a crucial thing we need to decide upon. This is the
:59:44. > :59:50.committee that thought Mari` Miller's expenses claims were
:59:51. > :59:57.acceptable. That was a nonsdnse I agree that we need a tougher recall
:59:58. > :00:05.Bill. It is difficult to get the balance right. If we can't toughen
:00:06. > :00:15.it up a bit, then I will support those measures. Are you happy to pay
:00:16. > :00:20.5p for a plastic bag? I don't want to pay 5p but I reuse materhal
:00:21. > :00:22.bikes. There are bigger isstes to debate.
:00:23. > :00:36.my guests. That is it for the Sunday Politics in London. Back to Andrew.
:00:37. > :00:40.Is enough being done to tackle extremism in schools?
:00:41. > :00:49.Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker, will make
:00:50. > :01:11.we are joined by the founder of the Quilliam Association. If you read
:01:12. > :01:15.the Sunday Telegraph this morning, there is a real problem. If you read
:01:16. > :01:30.the Observer, there is not much of a problem. What is the situation in
:01:31. > :01:37.your view in Birmingham? Allegations are seen to be -- if music was not
:01:38. > :01:42.being taught as it should be. Instead of the rating the national
:01:43. > :01:45.holidays here during the Christmas period, children were sent off
:01:46. > :01:51.instead on religious pilgrimage to Mecca, then I think something is
:01:52. > :02:00.going on. From my knowledge, I know about some of the strategies to
:02:01. > :02:05.influence. These strategies are known as gradualism. The idea, like
:02:06. > :02:11.the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is to join the institutions of society
:02:12. > :02:18.and influence from within -- from within. It is a gradual approach to
:02:19. > :02:24.Islamicisation society. We have seen that happening in other areas, such
:02:25. > :02:29.as the decision by the Law Society to call it shy and issue it out as
:02:30. > :02:32.guidance for solicitors. They are saying this means that women inherit
:02:33. > :02:41.half of what men saying this means that women inherit
:02:42. > :02:42.and adopted children do not get any inheritance. Apostates do not get
:02:43. > :02:46.any inheritance. These are guidelines being issued by the Law
:02:47. > :02:53.Society by Islamic. It is a medieval take on Islam. That is what is
:02:54. > :02:59.meant. We see the same names popping up again and again in different
:03:00. > :03:03.situations in Birmingham. Is it a planned infiltration? In my
:03:04. > :03:06.profession of you and planned infiltration? In my
:03:07. > :03:09.profession of you having spent 3 years on the leadership of an
:03:10. > :03:22.Islamist organisation, having been involved
:03:23. > :03:22.Islamist organisation, having been and setting up schools, I am very
:03:23. > :03:22.Islamist organisation, having been certain is a deliberate plan to
:03:23. > :03:27.influence the students of this country with a medieval
:03:28. > :03:30.interpretation of my own faith to bring about a medieval, conservative
:03:31. > :03:35.view, and enforce things like segregation on boys and girls within
:03:36. > :03:42.our public institutions. With these things be acceptable if they were
:03:43. > :03:47.explicitly they schools? If they were state. We had state Anglican
:03:48. > :03:53.faith schools. We have state Catholic faith schools as well.
:03:54. > :03:58.Would it be acceptable if these were state Islamic schools? That is a
:03:59. > :04:04.policy question. I am not generally in favour. I would believe in this
:04:05. > :04:11.establishment. I am not a fan of faith schools. I do think the
:04:12. > :04:15.solution is to ban them. I do think these schools should start working
:04:16. > :04:19.out with an engaging with the wider communities and not being insular
:04:20. > :04:23.and looking inwards. It is very important. The Ofsted report is
:04:24. > :04:30.coming out tomorrow. We have already had a taste about what it is saying
:04:31. > :04:34.about some of the schools. Is it a serious problem? It is a very
:04:35. > :04:41.serious problem. It comes from the segregation of children into
:04:42. > :04:44.intensely populated areas where everyone is Muslim virtually. You
:04:45. > :04:50.have to have a system of spreading children between schools. It very
:04:51. > :04:54.often happens, even with a secular school like this. Nearby Catholic or
:04:55. > :04:57.Church of England schools become like-for-like schools and that
:04:58. > :05:02.leaves the rest of the state schools to become all of one faith. I think
:05:03. > :05:06.all of the parties are being quite hypocritical about the profound
:05:07. > :05:11.problem of continuing to have faith schools. You have Orthodox Jewish
:05:12. > :05:14.schools with extraordinary dogma being taught. Indeed very strict
:05:15. > :05:20.Catholic schools with amazing dogma being taught. To somehow only get
:05:21. > :05:24.worried when it is Islamic, when it is Muslim schools, becomes a
:05:25. > :05:28.problem. You have to look at the whole issue and said the state
:05:29. > :05:41.should simply withdraw from the business of faith education. Like
:05:42. > :05:47.France? Yes, a secular school. The overall government policy is to take
:05:48. > :05:52.power away. The dilemma with that is that it comes with dangers. Some
:05:53. > :05:55.schools will be incompetent and some schools will be more than
:05:56. > :05:59.incompetent, they will be maligned in some respects. The one bit of
:06:00. > :06:05.this policy which has never been entirely squared is how do you
:06:06. > :06:08.devolve and retain a basic minimum of educational standards and
:06:09. > :06:13.behavioural standards while doing it? There is an even deeper quandary
:06:14. > :06:17.for Britain. We have prided ourselves on allowing radical views
:06:18. > :06:22.that stop short of violence. We took on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe
:06:23. > :06:25.would not have him. The rest of Europe could not believe how
:06:26. > :06:29.tolerably well of radical preachers in the 1990s. Do we stick with that
:06:30. > :06:37.view? The risks were greater than they were 100 years ago. We do
:06:38. > :06:42.expect, whatever peoples faith, that our children, at the expense of the
:06:43. > :06:47.taxpayer, are educated, not instructed, not indoctrinated,
:06:48. > :06:50.educated. We do expect that and also that boys and girls are treated
:06:51. > :06:54.equally. One of the things the board in Birmingham will be looking at
:06:55. > :06:58.which has Andrew Mitchell on it the former development Secretary,
:06:59. > :07:02.because he is a Birmingham MP full Sutton, they are really concerned
:07:03. > :07:07.about whether the girls are being treated as second-class citizens.
:07:08. > :07:12.There has been a lot of work done on empowerment of girls. Shirley
:07:13. > :07:16.Williams made the point that what Michael Gove has done by creating
:07:17. > :07:19.free schools and academies is undermined the work of local
:07:20. > :07:26.education authorities. They think they are traditional bodies which
:07:27. > :07:32.are not open to reform. One school in Birmingham which is accused of
:07:33. > :07:38.being in trouble is a local education school. They cannot have
:07:39. > :07:42.the other side. Under Michael Gove, they are answerable to the Secretary
:07:43. > :07:48.of State. It is down to Ofsted. Ofsted is giving the schools, not
:07:49. > :07:51.that long ago, outstanding marks. There are big questions about the
:07:52. > :07:56.oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt was trying to answer that point By
:07:57. > :08:03.tapping it cannot all have gone pear shaped in two years. How do you
:08:04. > :08:10.think that will play out? -- it cannot have gone pear shaped. The
:08:11. > :08:14.story was broken in February. It will keep playing out. The report
:08:15. > :08:18.that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow or Monday. Then there is the other
:08:19. > :08:22.report that will look into wider questions, that will come out in
:08:23. > :08:32.July, I think. We are expecting two points. -- reports. We have to look
:08:33. > :08:37.at questions of Ofsted and other institutions in our society, even
:08:38. > :08:45.government departments, where idea of taxing non-violent extremism
:08:46. > :08:49.became a too boot in this country. -- a taboo. They must be rebuffed
:08:50. > :08:55.the challenge, as we would expect racism to be challenged. In the
:08:56. > :09:01.argument between Michael Gove and Theresa May, where do you side? They
:09:02. > :09:05.should be challenged openly and robust leap by civilian society It
:09:06. > :09:15.was settled by the Prime Minister and is government policy. I had a
:09:16. > :09:23.hand in advising or consulting. I think Fiona Cunningham was forced to
:09:24. > :09:36.resign because what she did violates official government policy. It just
:09:37. > :09:47.has not been implemented yet. Will Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke?
:09:48. > :09:51.You'll agree he have to decide whether he will spirit at stopping
:09:52. > :09:55.him or accepting him as commission president and ask in return for a
:09:56. > :09:59.massive commission portfolio for Britain, something like the internal
:10:00. > :10:05.market, which they missed out on last time. It is a diplomatic
:10:06. > :10:11.decision he have to make. It is too late for that he is into deep. If he
:10:12. > :10:19.takes over the job, Cameron is left with egg on its face. From the
:10:20. > :10:22.beginning, he did not have his voice with the weight of the British
:10:23. > :10:29.Conservative Party, with ankle and Arkle, the rest of them. He is
:10:30. > :10:36.reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest of them. He is reaping that reward.
:10:37. > :10:44.There is a lot of support within Europe. In Germany, there was a lot
:10:45. > :10:49.of opposition to David Cameron getting his way. I know him from
:10:50. > :10:54.Brussels. He is entertaining, you go to dinner with him and he smokes and
:10:55. > :10:58.drinks. He is entertaining but he is the most awful person you could
:10:59. > :11:02.think of having trying to sort of symbolise a new European Union. I
:11:03. > :11:05.remember I was there join the Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when
:11:06. > :11:08.the voters in France and the Netherlands voted no to the European
:11:09. > :11:14.constitution, what was his response to that? Let's carry on with the
:11:15. > :11:21.ratification process of this treaty that has been comprehensively
:11:22. > :11:25.rejected by voters. He did not say the final bit of that sentence. You
:11:26. > :11:30.can see why Eurosceptics want him. He has blown a raspy at all the
:11:31. > :11:32.people who have protested at the elections with the way the European
:11:33. > :11:55.Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry. This is your most popular... What
:11:56. > :12:08.has come in most recently is doing really well. This is yours. There we
:12:09. > :12:11.go. Cheers! By our people so cynical? They always go for a drink
:12:12. > :12:22.at 11am and they pull their own pipes. I see them every day. -- pts.
:12:23. > :12:26.Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is to mark the idea is to define
:12:27. > :12:30.clearly a liberal brand, or at least I hope it is. It is not good enough
:12:31. > :12:34.for us to say the Liberal Democrats challenge the Tories on this, on the
:12:35. > :12:38.fairer society, and challenge the Labour Party on a strong economy. We
:12:39. > :12:44.need to define what we stand for. That is what I call a liberal brand,
:12:45. > :12:48.assertive liberalism. I have been there myself and I think that is
:12:49. > :12:56.what he will be speaking about. Standing up for liberal values, to
:12:57. > :12:59.finding -- defining what they are. Disestablishment in getting younger
:13:00. > :13:05.people re-engage with politics. The overwhelming number are actually
:13:06. > :13:10.liberal. We only have about 20 seconds. I suggest to you it is too
:13:11. > :13:16.late. Sign up with the one principle on which he stood is Europe. -- the
:13:17. > :13:24.one principle on which he stood if Europe. That is why he has been
:13:25. > :13:29.doing so badly. He cannot get out of the hole he is in. If you fight
:13:30. > :13:33.three general elections to the left of Labour and on the third when you
:13:34. > :13:51.are in coalition with the Tories, you have got a problem. I will be
:13:52. > :14:19.back next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.
:14:20. > :14:21.What's the hardest thing about being a foster parent?
:14:22. > :14:24.You're constantly trying to build the elusive trust.
:14:25. > :14:27.It's like a big old question mark in your heart.
:14:28. > :14:30.I just try and do the best I can for them while they're with me
:14:31. > :14:33.Join Lorraine Pascale as she looks at stories of fostering...
:14:34. > :14:36.I wasn't happy at all, but now I am. ..including her own.
:14:37. > :14:38.Nice to know finally where I came to the world.
:14:39. > :14:43.To know that you've grown up and had such a successful life is lovely.