:00:35. > :00:42.Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.
:00:43. > :00:47.The advance of the Islamist army on Baghdad has been slowed.
:00:48. > :00:48.The Iraqi army claims the fightback has begun.
:00:49. > :00:51.But the country now faces a de facto partition.
:00:52. > :00:54.What should Britain, Europe, or the US be doing - if anything?
:00:55. > :00:57.It's been a big week in the Scottish referendum.
:00:58. > :01:01.But has the tone of the debate become too downright nasty?
:01:02. > :01:08.Both sides join us to go head to head.
:01:09. > :01:12.I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. What is the significance of
:01:13. > :01:14.that? Karl McCartney, the Conserv`tive MP
:01:15. > :01:22.even Westminster, we'll be asking Karl McCartney, the Conserv`tive MP
:01:23. > :01:27.for the city of Lincoln. On the Sunday politics in Yorkshire
:01:28. > :01:30.and Lincolnshire, Turkey's voting for Christmas, UKIP's MEPs `rrive in
:01:31. > :01:42.Brussels and say they The Sunni Islamist army known
:01:43. > :01:45.as ISIS is now in control of huge swathes of northern
:01:46. > :01:47.and western Iraq, including Until the weekend they looked
:01:48. > :01:50.like advancing relentlessly on Baghdad but that offensive has
:01:51. > :01:53.now been slowed or even halted The Iraqi army
:01:54. > :01:57.and its Shia milita allies vow that Baghdad will not be taken and that
:01:58. > :02:04.a counter-attack will soon begin. Iraq's Shia Prime Minister Nouri
:02:05. > :02:07.al-Maliki has to do something to reverse the humiliation
:02:08. > :02:09.of recent days, which saw his US-trained and equipped Iraqi
:02:10. > :02:14.army, which outnumbered the Islamists 15 to 1 melt away or
:02:15. > :02:18.surrender when confronted by ISIS. The conflict has already created a
:02:19. > :02:20.humanitarian crisis, with hundreds The Kurds have used the conflict to
:02:21. > :02:31.consolidate their hold on their autonomous area in the north, parts
:02:32. > :02:34.of the west and the north are in the grip of ISIS control and the Shias
:02:35. > :02:37.are hunkering down in the east. All of which makes a three-way
:02:38. > :02:40.partition a real possibility with The US is moving another
:02:41. > :02:45.of its massive aircraft carrier battlefleets to the Gulf,
:02:46. > :02:47.though the White House shows no While Iran says it's ready to help
:02:48. > :02:52.its Shia allies and there are unconfoirmed reports
:02:53. > :02:54.that its revolutionary guard has Well, I'm joined now by Newsnight's
:02:55. > :03:13.diplomatic editor Mark Urban. Let's start with some basics. Who
:03:14. > :03:20.are ISIS and why are they controlling big chunks of Iraq? ISIS
:03:21. > :03:24.is an extremist militant jihad organisation and they have a pure
:03:25. > :03:28.Islamic concept based on 14th century history and jurisprudence.
:03:29. > :03:34.What they want to do is correct -- create this caliphate that do not
:03:35. > :03:37.recognise colonial boundaries so it involves Syria and Iraq, and they
:03:38. > :03:40.could go down to Lebanon and Palestine, that is all fair game as
:03:41. > :03:46.far as they are concerned. And they have this strict interpretation of
:03:47. > :03:51.Islam. The more interesting question is why have semi-Sunni Muslims,
:03:52. > :03:56.along with them, these are precisely the sort of people who in 2006,
:03:57. > :04:01.2007, tribal leaders in the west of the country rose up against. It was
:04:02. > :04:05.called the Awakening and the Americans in power did and
:04:06. > :04:11.bankrolled it. These people turned against them and admired them in
:04:12. > :04:13.large numbers, so why do they have so many Sunni Muslims on their
:04:14. > :04:16.side? We hear about people going back to Mosul. I think the answer is
:04:17. > :04:20.a perception back to Mosul. I think the answer
:04:21. > :04:23.that the current government is ruling in sectarian interests, Shia
:04:24. > :04:26.Muslim interest, and the Sunni Muslims want self-determination and
:04:27. > :04:30.this is their best bet. Muslims want self-determination and
:04:31. > :04:34.this is their Let me put up this map to find out where we are going. We
:04:35. > :04:39.can see Mosul in the north, they took that, and then they started,
:04:40. > :04:47.South, reports that the crit was involved -- to grit -- to grit. What
:04:48. > :04:51.is the situation on the ground now? We are in what you might call a
:04:52. > :05:00.consolidation or strategic pause as American called it in 2003. ISIS are
:05:01. > :05:02.trying to consolidate their power in Mosul, and now they have this major
:05:03. > :05:07.city and they are trying to show they can run the city and get the
:05:08. > :05:11.power going, etc. Their southernmost forces, that is a gorilla army, guys
:05:12. > :05:16.in pick-up trucks. They cannot deal with serious opposition. They would
:05:17. > :05:19.like to get the tanks and other things into action but that could
:05:20. > :05:24.take weeks for them to be able to do it. The government side is that they
:05:25. > :05:29.have counter-attacked, but it will take a little while before these
:05:30. > :05:35.newly raised militia and other task forces, call them what you will can
:05:36. > :05:40.effectively counter-attacked. But that is what will happen in the next
:05:41. > :05:43.week or two. We will see increasingly large and serious
:05:44. > :05:51.government counter-attacked trying to retake those places, and I fear a
:05:52. > :05:59.really difficult, bloody Syrian style street by street battle for
:06:00. > :06:04.some of these urban centres. I would like to have a look at this map
:06:05. > :06:07.because the Kurds, as I mentioned, they are consolidating their
:06:08. > :06:12.position in the autonomous region in the north. The Islamist are taking
:06:13. > :06:19.over huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim West. And of course the Shia Muslim
:06:20. > :06:22.are still dominant in control of Baghdad and in parts of the south
:06:23. > :06:32.and east. Back to me looks like the beginnings of the partition of Iraq.
:06:33. > :06:34.-- back to me. Well, it is, but we have to caveat it in a few ways
:06:35. > :06:40.Firstly, there are millions of people in Iraq, so-called sushi
:06:41. > :06:44.combined families, who do not fit easily into the pattern. Do we see
:06:45. > :06:50.millions of people becoming refugees under this scheme? There would be a
:06:51. > :06:55.lot of human tragedies if people really did try to enforce this type
:06:56. > :07:02.partition. Secondly, there are Sunni Muslim communities in the south of
:07:03. > :07:07.Baghdad, those places, once again, a lot of misery and fighting will
:07:08. > :07:18.occur if people try to enforce a de facto partition. There are still an
:07:19. > :07:24.awakening of forces. They are on the side of the government. We heard
:07:25. > :07:28.about one group in Samarra of Sunni Muslims fighting on the same side.
:07:29. > :07:32.It's a complex picture. They factor, it does look like a partition, and
:07:33. > :07:38.if it goes further in that direction it will. And partition will always
:07:39. > :07:41.be messy because people end up on the wrong side of the lies.
:07:42. > :07:47.Finally, the big thing on that map, Iran, a huge place, a huge border
:07:48. > :07:53.with Shia Muslim Iraq. Iran now becomes a key factor. It is becoming
:07:54. > :07:57.a proxy war for Iran. Yes, when I was in Baghdad a few months ago I
:07:58. > :08:01.did actually see Iranians revolutionary guards in uniform
:08:02. > :08:07.They were protecting a senior Iranians official, so some numbers
:08:08. > :08:11.have been never some time and they are also said to protect the
:08:12. > :08:16.political leaders and -- in his compound. They are there. We think
:08:17. > :08:19.more of them are trying to organise the defence of Baghdad to galvanise
:08:20. > :08:25.the Iraqi army, and they will not allow the Iraqi government to fall.
:08:26. > :08:29.Mark, thank you for marking archive this morning. -- marking our card.
:08:30. > :08:32.Tony Blair took Britain into the Iraq conflict in 2003.
:08:33. > :08:34.He's now, among other things, envoy to the Middle East representing
:08:35. > :08:37.That's the UN, the EU, the US and Russia.
:08:38. > :08:40.This morning he entered the debate about what should be
:08:41. > :08:50.My point is simple. If you left Saddam in place in 2003, when 2 11
:08:51. > :08:57.happened and you have the Arab revolutions going through Tunisia,
:08:58. > :09:02.Libya, Yemen, Bahrain and Egypt and Syria, you would still have had a
:09:03. > :09:05.major problem in Iraq. You can see what happens when you leave the
:09:06. > :09:09.dictator in place, as has happened with Bashar al-Assad. The problem
:09:10. > :09:13.doesn't go away. What I'm trying to say is, we can rerun the debates
:09:14. > :09:17.about 2003, and there are perfectly legitimate points on either side,
:09:18. > :09:21.but where we are in 2014, we have do understand that this is a regional
:09:22. > :09:25.problem, but a problem that will affect us.
:09:26. > :09:27.And I'm joined by the former Foreign Office minister Mark Malloch-Brown,
:09:28. > :09:31.Here in London are James Rubin, he was chief spokesman
:09:32. > :09:33.for the State Department under Bill Clinton, and Bayan Rahman,
:09:34. > :09:46.she represents the Kurdistan Regional government in the UK.
:09:47. > :09:51.Intervened in Iraq, it's a shambles, we don't intervene in Syria, it s a
:09:52. > :09:56.shambles. What lessons should we draw? That is a well framed
:09:57. > :10:00.question, because that is the problem. Tony Blair is half right.
:10:01. > :10:04.Iraq, like Syria, would probably have been a problem even without an
:10:05. > :10:10.intervention. But one wishes someone would tell him to stay quiet during
:10:11. > :10:14.moments like this, because it does drive a great surge of people in the
:10:15. > :10:17.other direction. The fact is, what has been missing in western politics
:10:18. > :10:22.towards the Middle East throughout both episodes, Syria and Iraq, is a
:10:23. > :10:28.drive to build an inclusive, democratic centre which is secular
:10:29. > :10:31.and nonsectarian. That has been missing amongst the threats of
:10:32. > :10:37.invasion Manon invasion, we have just constantly neglected the
:10:38. > :10:42.diplomatic nation-building dimensional this. I want to come
:10:43. > :10:45.onto what is happening on the ground. I want to begin with what
:10:46. > :10:48.the Western response by me, and by that we mean the United States,
:10:49. > :10:52.because of it doesn't do anything, nobody will do anything. All of the
:10:53. > :10:56.signals I see coming out of the White is that Barack Obama has no
:10:57. > :11:00.appetite for intervention -- out of the White House. I don't think he
:11:01. > :11:07.does have an appetite. He would be very unlikely to do anything very
:11:08. > :11:12.large. He might feel pressured to act because of the fact that this
:11:13. > :11:16.particular group, this Al-Qaeda inspired group, fits into the
:11:17. > :11:21.strategy he has pursued in Yemen and Afghanistan and Pakistan, to use
:11:22. > :11:31.drone strikes against individual terrorists. So it is possible that
:11:32. > :11:36.the threat of ISIS in the region and the West in general might inspire
:11:37. > :11:41.him to act, but the idea he will do enough, militarily, to transform
:11:42. > :11:47.Iraq from its current state of civil War into something along the lines
:11:48. > :11:52.that Mark was talking about, nation-building diplomacy, a big
:11:53. > :11:57.operation, I don't see President Obama sees his historic mission as
:11:58. > :12:02.having got the United States as out of it. Leave it to the Pacific,
:12:03. > :12:07.perhaps. What would the Kurds like the West to do? First of all, in
:12:08. > :12:12.Kurdistan we face a huge humanitarian crisis. We already have
:12:13. > :12:14.had bought a quarter of a million Syrian refugees and we were
:12:15. > :12:20.struggling to cope with that. And now we have at least double that
:12:21. > :12:23.number of refugees coming from Mosul. First and foremost, we are
:12:24. > :12:28.calling on the international community to help us with that. So
:12:29. > :12:32.we need humanitarian aid? Let's assume we do that in some way, maybe
:12:33. > :12:37.not enough, but what else if anything? I think it is an incumbent
:12:38. > :12:43.on the west and other powers to assist Iraq to get rid of ISIS. I
:12:44. > :12:50.think the Sunni Arab community, some of whom have joined ISIS and may be
:12:51. > :12:57.supported the uprising, have justified complaints against the
:12:58. > :12:59.federal government. But we need the terrorists out of Iraq. That is
:13:00. > :13:04.first and foremost. And what the West can do is not necessarily
:13:05. > :13:07.intervene with boots on the ground, but provide technical assistance,
:13:08. > :13:13.provide intelligence and help the Iraqi army and air force to be more
:13:14. > :13:20.targeted. Can you defend yourselves? In Kurdistan, we can in terms of the
:13:21. > :13:24.disciplined troops. In this situation, I hope they won't be
:13:25. > :13:28.abandoning their post, that is for sure. It is a national cause fires.
:13:29. > :13:35.But we are not armed in the way that the Iraqi army is -- cause for us.
:13:36. > :13:38.We are not armed in the way that ISIS seems to be now they have
:13:39. > :13:42.seized some of the American kit We are not asking for weapons, but we
:13:43. > :13:46.ask for assistance for all of Iraq to deal with the situation. Mark,
:13:47. > :13:52.this is not just an Iraqi problem. This is a regional conflict, and
:13:53. > :13:56.from the Levant on the shores of the Mediterranean, all the way through
:13:57. > :14:02.to the Gulf, the region is gripped with what is essentially a Sunni and
:14:03. > :14:05.Shia Muslim sectarian war. Yes, with the caveats that Mark bourbon made
:14:06. > :14:10.earlier, it's not quite that straightforward, but the basic
:14:11. > :14:14.divide is exactly that -- Mark Urban. People have been looking for
:14:15. > :14:18.this to begin in Lebanon or Jordan and have been taken by surprise
:14:19. > :14:24.although with hindsight I'm not sure why, that it has begun in Iraq
:14:25. > :14:27.instead. At its most extreme, it risks redrawing the 20th century
:14:28. > :14:31.boundaries of the region in a way which would be highly unstable
:14:32. > :14:36.because it would pit a Shia Muslim bloc against the Sunni Muslim bloc
:14:37. > :14:41.and would undo all of the sort of social and economic advance of the
:14:42. > :14:46.last century, so the stakes are suddenly very, very high indeed Are
:14:47. > :14:53.we seeing the redrawing? The lines were drawn secretly, not far from
:14:54. > :14:56.here, about a mile away, and may have survived through thick and
:14:57. > :15:01.thin. They now look pretty fragile. The map is being redrawn. I think it
:15:02. > :15:09.is true that there is a key factor partition going on -- des facto
:15:10. > :15:16.Woodrow Wilson probably gave a bit of a hand to the promotion of the
:15:17. > :15:19.idea of self-determination, and in a way, there is a self determination
:15:20. > :15:23.going on, particularly in the Kurdish region, and perhaps they may
:15:24. > :15:28.end up the big winners in all of this, because they have proceeded
:15:29. > :15:31.with a relatively moderate, reconcilable government. The key
:15:32. > :15:42.thing that the Kurdish region has done. They used to fight the two
:15:43. > :15:47.groups, and now they fight together. What the Sunni Muslims have not done
:15:48. > :15:54.is figure out how to let politics let the side things instead of guns.
:15:55. > :16:01.We need to look clearly and in Syria and Iraq, if there is a Sunni
:16:02. > :16:07.extremist with ISIS that carves out a place for itself, it will be the
:16:08. > :16:12.great irony of the modern era. President Bush said he wanted to go
:16:13. > :16:19.into Iraq to fight terrorism. There was no terrorist. There are now If
:16:20. > :16:25.in Iraq and Syria together thereat a thousand strong Al-Qaeda capability
:16:26. > :16:27.that threatens the region, the West, the world, we are all going to
:16:28. > :16:56.have to do something about it. The danger is that power will
:16:57. > :17:00.spread. This could grow in power. You would not want it on your
:17:01. > :17:04.southern border. Absolutely, we would not. The point we are all
:17:05. > :17:09.making indirectly is that things have changed in Iraq and will never
:17:10. > :17:12.be the same again. Whether Iraq completely disintegrates into three
:17:13. > :17:14.countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but a
:17:15. > :17:17.countries, or whether it stays together as one country, but loose
:17:18. > :17:24.federation, either way, Iraq has changed. It will not go back to what
:17:25. > :17:28.it was. I hope it will change for the better. I think we're at the
:17:29. > :17:36.make or break point for Iraq. Either the political readers -- the
:17:37. > :17:39.political leaders of a right wake up and smell the coffee and put aside
:17:40. > :17:45.their differences or there will be problems. This provides that
:17:46. > :17:51.opportunity, in a very nasty way. If we take it? Yes, and if not, I think
:17:52. > :18:00.this is the end of a rack as we know it. If anything resembling a
:18:01. > :18:04.caliphate emerges, that is very destabilising for the region itself.
:18:05. > :18:09.More so I would suggest than even the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in
:18:10. > :18:16.Afghanistan. At some stage, you have to assume that they will be coming
:18:17. > :18:26.for us. That is correct. This is extremely dangerous. The only way
:18:27. > :18:30.forward is for these political groups to talk to each other and
:18:31. > :18:35.find a compromise that allows the rates of cinemas and minorities in
:18:36. > :18:37.Iraq to be protected within or the rates of cinemas and minorities in
:18:38. > :18:42.Iraq to be protected with an autonomous federal-state. Any
:18:43. > :18:45.support for the government must be premised on that. There is no
:18:46. > :19:02.military solution for this which is in during -- there is no military
:19:03. > :19:06.solution for this. There must be serious political negotiation, not
:19:07. > :19:10.with ISIS, but with Sunni Muslim moderates, to form a more
:19:11. > :19:15.representative government. This is the last chance for Iraq. I think we
:19:16. > :19:18.are all saying that that is going to need to be some major western
:19:19. > :19:24.leadership to make some big decisions here for the future of the
:19:25. > :19:29.region. I am concerned that after Afghanistan and Iraq, my country is
:19:30. > :19:34.quite world-weary, quite world-weary. It does not seem to be
:19:35. > :19:38.giving leadership. Certainly we are not seeing that in Europe. I am
:19:39. > :19:42.deeply concerned that we are not going to take the leadership role
:19:43. > :19:48.that needs to be taken. These are big issues. When Britain and France
:19:49. > :19:52.carved up the Middle East, they were world powers, operating as global
:19:53. > :19:57.powers, and without that global leadership by somebody, this is just
:19:58. > :19:58.going to get worse and worse. I think we will leave it there, thank
:19:59. > :20:03.you very much. The danger is that power will
:20:04. > :20:09.spread. This could grow in power. It is just under 100 days until the
:20:10. > :20:11.referendum on Scottish independence. So, for once,
:20:12. > :20:14.it'll be a long hot-summer But the campaign isn't
:20:15. > :20:20.just getting heated. Scotland's best-selling author
:20:21. > :20:22.announced she was giving the unionist cause a million pounds
:20:23. > :20:25.this week, she received Independence supporters online,
:20:26. > :20:33.so-called cybernats, called JK Rowling a traitor
:20:34. > :20:35.and much worse, using a variety of For its part, the Better Together
:20:36. > :20:39.campaign has been accused Even Gordon Brown seems to think so,
:20:40. > :20:43.and this week he criticised Conservative ministers
:20:44. > :20:44.for relying on "threats With the Edinburgh Festival
:20:45. > :20:50.approaching, reports suggest even comedians are now reluctant to
:20:51. > :20:52.engage in the subject because I'm joined by Blair Jenkins from
:20:53. > :20:59.Yes Scotland and Jackie Baillie They're both in our Glasgow studio,
:21:00. > :21:19.and they're going head to head. Blair Jenkins, let me come to you
:21:20. > :21:22.first. Why have you and the Better Together campaign and Alex Salmond
:21:23. > :21:27.not done more to slap down the cyber nationalists who are poisoning the
:21:28. > :21:32.debate? Good morning. I think both sides tried to stop the tiny number
:21:33. > :21:36.of people on both sides who are incapable of controlling
:21:37. > :21:41.themselves. We should not get this out of proportion. We are having a
:21:42. > :21:45.fantastic, decent and democratic debate. The people who probably
:21:46. > :21:49.total no more than 100 on both sides who post offensive material or not
:21:50. > :21:54.to be allowed to deflect from that fact. Of course there are nasty
:21:55. > :21:57.people on the Better Together side as well, but are you saying there
:21:58. > :22:04.are as many of those as the cyber nationalists? I have not done the
:22:05. > :22:09.Kent. Lots of people are certainly posting nasty in defensive things to
:22:10. > :22:14.people in the yes campaigners well. I imagine that people do what I do,
:22:15. > :22:21.and block them. You stop them from sending anything further. There is a
:22:22. > :22:24.democratic and in gauging progress going on throughout Scotland. It is
:22:25. > :22:28.characterised by good humour and good debate. We should not get out
:22:29. > :22:34.of proportion and the activities of the number of people. I want to get
:22:35. > :22:37.to Jackie Baillie. The debate is actually pretty good-humoured and
:22:38. > :22:42.you should be doing more about the nasties on your side as well? I
:22:43. > :22:47.think we have reached a new low this week. Despite many people engaging
:22:48. > :22:53.in the politics of the decision and the debate about that, whether we
:22:54. > :22:56.want to retain the best of both worlds are separate from the United
:22:57. > :23:04.Kingdom, what we have seen is the most abusive and vitriolic attack,
:23:05. > :23:09.particularly on women, JK Rowling and a Labour supporter who dared to
:23:10. > :23:14.support the no campaign. When you look at the number of people on
:23:15. > :23:18.social media, there are more from the yes campaign than the no site.
:23:19. > :23:27.We should all be condemning attacks, from whatever quarter they come
:23:28. > :23:30.This seemed to be connected to the office of the First Minister. What
:23:31. > :23:36.is the evidence for that? There was an e-mail from one of the... I
:23:37. > :23:45.understand about that, but it did not use vile words. It did not, but
:23:46. > :23:49.it repeated the same mistake as on the website. We should be clear that
:23:50. > :23:55.we need to condemn these attacks, but it is not just the water works,
:23:56. > :23:59.it is taking action. There was an IpsosMORI poll this week which was
:24:00. > :24:04.varying testing. It showed the population as a whole, farmer people
:24:05. > :24:09.think that Yes Scotland is running an effective campaign as against
:24:10. > :24:17.Better Together. It is a undecided voters think this by a majority of
:24:18. > :24:22.four 21. Some people are worried about of the campaign. JK Rowling,
:24:23. > :24:28.Scotland's most successful author of all time. She gives ?1 million to
:24:29. > :24:32.the Better Together campaign. She then faces some of the most
:24:33. > :24:39.incredible abuse. I know what it is like because I have had some myself.
:24:40. > :24:45.Traitor, Quisling. I cannot use some of the words, it is Sunday morning.
:24:46. > :24:49.Why does Scottish Nationalists culture have such a revolting
:24:50. > :24:53.fringe? JK Rowling is entitled to our views and it is unacceptable if
:24:54. > :24:58.people say offensive things about her or anyone else who voices and
:24:59. > :25:01.opinion in this debate. Who are obese people? When you look at the
:25:02. > :25:05.accounts of some of the people who were posting these things about JK
:25:06. > :25:10.Rowling, they were using the same sort of language about film stars
:25:11. > :25:17.and football stars. This was just part of their language on Twitter.
:25:18. > :25:24.How often has Alex Salmond condemned the cyber nationalists? Very often.
:25:25. > :25:28.Everyone in the campaign hands. By common consent, Yes Scotland is
:25:29. > :25:33.running a thoroughly positive campaign, much more positive than
:25:34. > :25:39.Better Together. Jackie Baillie it hardly helps matters when Alistair
:25:40. > :25:42.Darling, who runs your campaign compares Alex Salmond to Kim Jong Il
:25:43. > :25:47.and North Korea. That hardly elevates the debate? I think we need
:25:48. > :25:54.to elevate the debate. There are less than a hundred days to go. It
:25:55. > :26:01.is a massive decision. We need to elevate the debate beyond attacks. I
:26:02. > :26:06.think there is much more that Yes Scotland and the SNP can do. You
:26:07. > :26:13.have made that point. Why are you running a campaign based on fear?
:26:14. > :26:19.The codename of your campaign is even project fear. It is threats.
:26:20. > :26:24.You cannot have the pound, there will be no shipbuilding. You will be
:26:25. > :26:30.flooded by immigrants. Why are you so negative? I am not negative at
:26:31. > :26:33.all and neither is the campaign The campaign has asked questions and I
:26:34. > :26:37.think it is legitimate to ask questions of the people proposing
:26:38. > :26:42.such a fundamental change. People care about the economy, their jobs,
:26:43. > :26:48.their families. What would happen to them if they leave the rest of the
:26:49. > :26:51.United Kingdom. I think it is legitimate to ask questions. I
:26:52. > :26:59.refuse to be asked of scaremongering. People deserve
:27:00. > :27:05.answers. The yes campaign is equally guilty of some of the most
:27:06. > :27:12.outrageous scaremongering. Maybe you are both scaremongering. Blair
:27:13. > :27:16.Jenkins, the First Minister said of the cyber nationalists, that they
:27:17. > :27:21.are just Daft folk, as if they were mischievous little children. It is
:27:22. > :27:28.worse than that. When you look at what they say, they are twisted
:27:29. > :27:32.perhaps even evil minds. I would not disagree with his comments, but they
:27:33. > :27:36.are directed at just a small number of people. The story of this
:27:37. > :27:41.campaign is not the story of what people are saying on Twitter. Around
:27:42. > :27:48.Scotland, lots of people are getting engaged in debate to have been tuned
:27:49. > :27:52.out of the political process. Today, we have 47% support for the yes
:27:53. > :27:57.campaign. The movement in the campaign is towards yes. People know
:27:58. > :28:04.we have a better campaign, a vision for Scotland. The latest poll of
:28:05. > :28:07.polls does not show that. Both sides, you always take the opinion
:28:08. > :28:13.polls that show you in the best light. All politicians do that.
:28:14. > :28:19.Jackie Baillie, your campaign is not just negative, it is patronising.
:28:20. > :28:25.You make dubious claims that Scots would be ?1400 better off by staying
:28:26. > :28:31.in the union, and then you say that the kids use the money to scoff 280
:28:32. > :28:35.hotdogs at the Edinburgh Festival. The fate of the nation is in your
:28:36. > :28:41.hands and that is the best you can do? I think you will find that the
:28:42. > :28:47.campaign is something that we are taking the message to people. Then
:28:48. > :28:54.why are you talking about hotdogs? I do not. The campaign did. We are
:28:55. > :28:58.taking a positive message to people across Scotland about the benefits
:28:59. > :29:02.of the United Kingdom. We believe we are stronger and more secure and
:29:03. > :29:07.more stable, being part of that family of nations that is the United
:29:08. > :29:11.Kingdom. At the same time, we have the strange and power over things
:29:12. > :29:18.like education and transport. I understand that. I am not doing the
:29:19. > :29:23.issues today, I am talking about the tone of the campaign. I have one
:29:24. > :29:29.very important question. Who would you supporting last night in the
:29:30. > :29:33.England-Italy match? I was not watching the game. I would be
:29:34. > :29:37.delighted to see England do well in this tournament. I have Argentina in
:29:38. > :29:42.the office sweepstake. I have to keep some attention on them, but I
:29:43. > :29:48.would be delighted to seeing Clint do well. That is because you think
:29:49. > :29:54.it will help your campaign. It will annoy the Scots. Jackie Baillie I
:29:55. > :30:00.was supporting England. I was also supporting Portugal.
:30:01. > :30:02.Now most of you probably missed last night's football match
:30:03. > :30:06.between England and Italy because you wanted to get an early night and
:30:07. > :30:10.England lost despite a plucky effort, I'm told.
:30:11. > :30:13.But even Westminster is in the grip of World Cup fever
:30:14. > :30:15.and with speculation about the fitness of each political
:30:16. > :30:22.party's team we sent Adam out to tackle some of the big players.
:30:23. > :30:24.Well, this is the closest I'll get to Rio.
:30:25. > :30:37.This year everybody seems to have gone a bit mad Belize, football
:30:38. > :30:44.stickers. Let's see who I will get. Oh, the suspense -- a bit mad for
:30:45. > :30:45.these. George Osborne? That is because we leapt on the bandwagon
:30:46. > :30:49.and made Alan political stickers. They're hotter than a Brazilian
:30:50. > :30:50.barbecue. And at Westminster they're
:30:51. > :30:59.turning into collector?s items. Sunday politics political stickers.
:31:00. > :31:04.We have one of you, Norman. Would you like it? Do you want to start
:31:05. > :31:05.collecting, Bob? Would you like a packet?
:31:06. > :31:12.collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I'm afraid
:31:13. > :31:15.collecting, Bob? Would you like a Thank you. No album, I've got
:31:16. > :31:24.Michael Gove, next to to Reza, and two of the Prime Minister. -- next
:31:25. > :31:25.to Theresa. I am sure Michael has Theresa in her stick around, and
:31:26. > :31:27.vice versa. These Tory ones are proving very
:31:28. > :31:28.popular since she fell out with him out how
:31:29. > :31:32.to handle extremism in schools. And there's been open speculation
:31:33. > :31:34.about him taking on him in Then there are rumours of a
:31:35. > :31:46.reshuffle of the whole Tory album. Do you think there will be any
:31:47. > :31:55.swapping in the Tory leadership soon? Who knows? David Cameron has
:31:56. > :31:56.also got to replace the EU commissioner, Cathy Ashton, who is
:31:57. > :31:57.standing down. Does he go with the favourite
:31:58. > :32:00.the former health secretary Or the grassroots choice,
:32:01. > :32:02.Martin Callanan, the Tories old Or does he rehabilitate
:32:03. > :32:20.Andrew Mitchell after Plebgate? Do you fancy being European
:32:21. > :32:24.Commissioner? I would rather be spending the money on the world s
:32:25. > :32:26.poor and spending it well. Glad to hear it. Happy collecting.
:32:27. > :32:28.Right, there must be some Labour stickers out there.
:32:29. > :32:37.You don't want to swap Ed Balls any of the others? Can't I keep them
:32:38. > :32:37.all? This is almost the perfect team.
:32:38. > :32:41.There have been grumblings about the fitness of the Shadow
:32:42. > :32:45.And Ed Miliband's got a kicking in Liverpool after posing
:32:46. > :32:56.I'm told grown men are meeting up in pubs for sticker swaps -
:32:57. > :33:01.With Danny Finkelstein - Tory peer and Times columnist,
:33:02. > :33:12.He would be the card I would not want to trade. Do people want to
:33:13. > :33:16.trade him in? I don't think anybody wants to trade him in at the moment.
:33:17. > :33:19.He is the best person to lead the Labour party and will lead us into
:33:20. > :33:23.the next election. There's been a lot about Michael Gove, and he's
:33:24. > :33:26.very combative. That's been a huge strength as an education Secretary,
:33:27. > :33:30.despite the fact it's brought in trouble. I would think the prime
:33:31. > :33:33.minister would tell him not to get himself into peripheral battles at
:33:34. > :33:39.the moment but stick to what has been successful. I haven't got Nick
:33:40. > :33:46.Clegg, but I got me. Controversy amongst collectors of Lib Dems. I
:33:47. > :33:47.need to give away me in return for Nick Clegg. That would be far
:33:48. > :33:50.better. There you are. Some local parties are holding
:33:51. > :33:54.meetings about his leadership, but at one in Cambridge this week
:33:55. > :34:06.they voted to stick with him. You have got a Euro Commissioner.
:34:07. > :34:10.Why don't I swap, I will swap Ed Miliband for Tim Farren. Can I do
:34:11. > :34:13.that? What is the significance of that? Very significant. Happy
:34:14. > :34:16.collecting. These beauties are popping up
:34:17. > :34:18.everywhere, but sadly they won't Adam is still doing the samba around
:34:19. > :34:28.Westminster as I speak. I'm joined
:34:29. > :34:30.by three journalists who've been furiously swapping stickers
:34:31. > :34:32.throughout the show, they certainly weren't allowed to stay up to watch
:34:33. > :34:43.the football, it's Nick Watt, We will talk about Labour after the
:34:44. > :34:45.break, and I want to concentrate on the Tories, but the moment, Nick,
:34:46. > :34:54.senior Tories are saying privately that they might win next May. They
:34:55. > :35:00.are beginning to dream the dream. So why are they doing all this
:35:01. > :35:05.jockeying? I think the jockeying for the leadership is about a year old.
:35:06. > :35:12.What stoped it up was when Theresa gave a speech to the conference and
:35:13. > :35:15.people said she was doing it just in case, when things were not looking
:35:16. > :35:19.too good. She is not on manoeuvres. I think it was a policy row that
:35:20. > :35:23.drove the differences with Michael Gove. But Michael Gove is on
:35:24. > :35:26.manoeuvres, and he is trying to protect George Osborne from, he
:35:27. > :35:33.believes, a serious threat from Boris Johnson and possibly Theresa.
:35:34. > :35:36.It is quite self-indulgent when you are a couple of points behind, the
:35:37. > :35:46.economy is going your way, to be involved in this sort of stuff.
:35:47. > :35:52.Extraordinary. It shows the toxic disease that gnaws at the entrails
:35:53. > :35:55.of the Tory party, and Cameron is their great asset. He is more
:35:56. > :36:00.popular than the party, he bridges the gap is, and he has an
:36:01. > :36:04.extraordinary dissemble and some pretending to be this moderate while
:36:05. > :36:07.never the lens -- nevertheless leading the most far right wing
:36:08. > :36:11.government we have had since the war, and that has been a brilliant
:36:12. > :36:13.piece of political Charente and they would be crazy to get rid of it --
:36:14. > :36:15.political Charente. piece of political Charente and they
:36:16. > :36:21.would be crazy to get rid of it -- charades. Does this rumble on? I
:36:22. > :36:25.have an unfashionable view as there aren't half as many leadership plots
:36:26. > :36:29.taking place in Westminster as we assume, and the willingness to read
:36:30. > :36:32.strategic calculation into anything that takes place comes from people
:36:33. > :36:39.watching I Claudius or house of cards. That hasn't been off -- on
:36:40. > :36:45.for years. I needed a reference from your time. I needed something. Maybe
:36:46. > :36:50.brief encounter? It's a stylised view of how politics works, and so
:36:51. > :36:56.much more in life is about randomness and mistakes. Boris
:36:57. > :37:02.Johnson, Theresa May, Michael Gove as George Osborne's man on earth,
:37:03. > :37:04.they are positioning themselves -- Janan wrote an eloquent comment this
:37:05. > :37:11.week about this, but there are certain realities that. Michael Gove
:37:12. > :37:14.had that famous dinner with Rupert Murdoch a few weeks ago in which he
:37:15. > :37:19.said that you must not make Boris Johnson leader of the Conservative
:37:20. > :37:23.party, George Osborne is my man Theresa May set out her credo two
:37:24. > :37:26.years ago and people on her team were saying that she was doing it
:37:27. > :37:31.just in case. People are out there and are thinking of the future, but
:37:32. > :37:35.I do think Janan is right. In the village, in the thick of it mindset,
:37:36. > :37:44.you can get a bit carried away and you can be a bit in the famous. That
:37:45. > :37:50.is before your era. He died. What did he mean by it. You can get a bit
:37:51. > :37:53.carried away by it. I will have words with you during the break
:37:54. > :37:56.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:57. > :37:58.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:37:59. > :38:23.UKIP's MEPs arrive in Brussdl and be talking about Ed Miliband's
:38:24. > :38:25.UKIP's MEPs arrive in Brussdl and say they aim to make themselves
:38:26. > :38:28.redundant as soon as possible. There's a distinct European
:38:29. > :38:31.flavour to our programme today. Later we'll find out how people
:38:32. > :38:33.in Lincoln's twin town in Gdrmany Our guests today are newly`dlected
:38:34. > :38:39.UKIP MEP Jane Collins, the Labour MP And in our Lincoln studio is
:38:40. > :38:43.Karl McCartney, the Conserv`tive MP First, this week saw the arrival
:38:44. > :38:55.in Brussels of a record number of UKIP MEPs, following the party's
:38:56. > :38:58.success in the European elections. Their main aim, they say,
:38:59. > :39:16.is to get rid of their own jobs For more than 40 years
:39:17. > :39:19.the union flag has flown in the heart of Europe's political
:39:20. > :39:22.capital, but for how much longer? The UKIP MEPs arriving in Brussels
:39:23. > :39:25.for the first time say they are committed to ensuring Britahn leaves
:39:26. > :39:30.the EU at the earliest opportunity. We're the turkeys voting
:39:31. > :39:33.for Christmas. We're the party that
:39:34. > :39:35.want to be out of it. We want to be made redundant,
:39:36. > :39:43.the sooner the better. Some may question why an anti`EU
:39:44. > :39:47.party should turn up in Brussels at all, and take the generots
:39:48. > :39:49.salary and expenses package the UKIP don't really have
:39:50. > :39:57.a proper set of policies. Here we are in a Parliament where
:39:58. > :40:00.committee work is very important, working on legislation ` trxing to
:40:01. > :40:04.stop it, of course, as well, that is very important ` but you know, their
:40:05. > :40:07.history so far has been not to attend, not to do very much,
:40:08. > :40:10.leave it to the rest of us to do the hard work that
:40:11. > :40:13.represents the best interests of Yorkshire and the Humber in my case,
:40:14. > :40:20.and the country more generally. You're here and you have to
:40:21. > :40:23.represent the people who voted for There is no point saying "I'm not
:40:24. > :40:28.going do anything, I'm not going to vote, I'm going to be hostile",
:40:29. > :40:31.that won't improve things. If I can be of use
:40:32. > :40:34.on a committee and push forward legislation that is going to be
:40:35. > :40:37.productive to our country, then I will do that, but I am cert`inly not
:40:38. > :40:40.going to add to the deluge For Amjad Bashir it's
:40:41. > :40:49.a big career change. He was born in Pakistan, and came to
:40:50. > :40:52.Bradford at the age of eight, He spent most of his working life
:40:53. > :40:56.in business. Many might wonder why,
:40:57. > :40:59.as the son of an immigrant, you represent a party that has such
:41:00. > :41:06.a hard line against immigration As a party we are not
:41:07. > :41:09.against immigration. What we're saying is the right type
:41:10. > :41:12.of immigration, that's going to do good for the immigrants comhng in,
:41:13. > :41:15.and also for our country, that they have the skills wd need to
:41:16. > :41:22.better our country and our society. So unlike most jobs where pdople
:41:23. > :41:25.hope for a long career, these newly elected MEPs ard already
:41:26. > :41:45.looking for the exit. Jane Collins how was your fhrst week
:41:46. > :41:50.in Brussels? It is the den of iniquity your party makes ott? Think
:41:51. > :41:55.it was interest, I have to say, it was more, it wasn't more of a
:41:56. > :42:01.Parliament it was more of a city, a European massive city. It is so
:42:02. > :42:05.immense. My induction was what I thought it would be, form after form
:42:06. > :42:11.after form and plenty of red tape, but it was an interesting fdw days.
:42:12. > :42:16.Trick trick, how will the arrival of anti`EU MEPs not just UKIP but from
:42:17. > :42:22.other countries, how will that shape the future of the Continent? The
:42:23. > :42:27.message was sent by the public, UKIP won fair and square, three seats in
:42:28. > :42:31.Yorkshire. I hope they won't make a laughing stock of us, but I think
:42:32. > :42:35.there is a big job to do representing Britain and I hope they
:42:36. > :42:39.do it in especially Yorkshire, there are over 300,000 jobs in Yorkshire,
:42:40. > :42:45.which depend on the European Union, we have to make sure we get more
:42:46. > :42:50.jobs and not imperil the onds we have got. Let me put to Karl
:42:51. > :42:53.McCartney first of all, is David Cameron flogging a dead horse,
:42:54. > :43:03.trying to get a better deal out of the EU? Look at the problems he has
:43:04. > :43:05.had with Mr June Kerr. I I don't subscribe to your point of view
:43:06. > :43:09.What David Cameron has done certainly in the last four xears is
:43:10. > :43:13.as the Prime Minister is make sure he stood up for the country's
:43:14. > :43:19.interest in Europe. He is doing that again. We don't want to see somebody
:43:20. > :43:24.who is for more as a pro federalist who wants to see more integration in
:43:25. > :43:29.the EU. The Conservative Party is the only party offering a
:43:30. > :43:33.referendum. Jane Collins wh`t do you make of Jon's point that yotr
:43:34. > :43:39.anti`EU stance is going to cost jobs in Yorkshire and the Humber. Totally
:43:40. > :43:46.disagree. You don't have to be part of a political union to trade.
:43:47. > :43:50.Employment is based on business We only export below 10% of our
:43:51. > :43:57.country's goods to the EU. The rest we export worldwide, so no, I
:43:58. > :44:02.totally disagree. Jon, your guilty secret is you were part of the no
:44:03. > :44:06.campaign in the 1975 referendum you were a big player. I might be the
:44:07. > :44:10.only person who remembers it in this studio. Look, I make no apologies
:44:11. > :44:14.for the ct fa. I was against the Common Market, I was the secretary
:44:15. > :44:20.of the vote no campaign, we had the referendum, we lost the votd, I was
:44:21. > :44:24.worried about losing the links to the Commonwealth, I worried about
:44:25. > :44:27.what happened to the countrx. We lost the life. Life has movdd on and
:44:28. > :44:31.there are two million peopld, British people working or lhving in
:44:32. > :44:36.the European Union, and as H said, there is jobs in Yorkshire, 170 000
:44:37. > :44:39.manufacturing jobs here in Yorkshire, look, some of thd things
:44:40. > :44:43.I said at the time about thd Common Market was going wrong, would go
:44:44. > :44:47.wrong I think I was correct on, and so we feed to do some more reform,
:44:48. > :44:51.but I think people in our area want politicians who deal with the
:44:52. > :44:55.bread`and`butter issues and that means securing jobs and protecting
:44:56. > :45:00.the ones we have got. Karl Karl McCartney, your part of the world,
:45:01. > :45:06.is Lincolnshire better off hn or out of the EU? I don't subscribd to
:45:07. > :45:10.Jon's point of view. He is ` proud Yorkshireman, but on this hd is
:45:11. > :45:18.unsound. He mentioned the Commonwealth, which to me is a very
:45:19. > :45:22.important organisation, that we are part of and more countries want to
:45:23. > :45:28.be part of too, many in Whitehall and many in Government have been a
:45:29. > :45:31.bit too pro European for thd past 25 years, and longer and have turned
:45:32. > :45:35.their backs on the Commonwe`lth and other, it is to the detrimentof our
:45:36. > :45:38.country, jobs, yes, there is important work to be done and trade
:45:39. > :45:43.to be done with Europe but we shouldn't turn our back on the rest
:45:44. > :45:49.of world. Would you campaign to come out if it happens in 2017 I want to
:45:50. > :45:54.see a renegotiation of things that have gone on in the past 15 years of
:45:55. > :45:58.a Labour Government when people like Jon and his colleagues made some
:45:59. > :46:02.criminal decisions that werd detrimental to the good of the
:46:03. > :46:06.country. Do you want to respond to that I think criminal is slhghtly
:46:07. > :46:10.over the top. There are manx things we might have done differently but
:46:11. > :46:15.we are no longer living in that time. We have moved on. What Labour
:46:16. > :46:18.is ear clearly saying is we have to reform the European Union as it is
:46:19. > :46:22.now and we need to move forward What people want is a fairer
:46:23. > :46:27.country, and there are lots of things going on which are not fair
:46:28. > :46:34.which need to be changed. I have to pull youen on one thing, yot
:46:35. > :46:39.mentioned you have to look `fter people's job, 13 years of unlimited
:46:40. > :46:44.mass immigration which has caused wage compression, it has catsed job
:46:45. > :46:48.displacement, and it has catsed a great deal of social unrest, so how
:46:49. > :46:52.can you say you arelooking `fter the working man and woman? You `re not.
:46:53. > :46:58.By the way, I think it is extraordinary that one of the UKIP
:46:59. > :47:02.MEPs has run a business which appears to have employed seven
:47:03. > :47:09.illegal immigrants. We know he is disputing it, but that is the
:47:10. > :47:14.allegation that has been made. It is odd that has happened. Let ts not go
:47:15. > :47:18.over that again. We will cole back to you Karl McCartney. You will be
:47:19. > :47:23.interested in our next item. We are asking if the UK is out of step in
:47:24. > :47:29.the way we think about the DU, well we decided to test the water.
:47:30. > :47:32.So is the UK out of step with the rest of Europe
:47:33. > :47:38.our reporter Sharon Edwards went to the German town twinned with
:47:39. > :47:43.As you will find out Sharon tested the local wine as well as the water.
:47:44. > :47:47.This is Lincoln's twin town of Neustadt, part of Germanx's
:47:48. > :47:53.For seventh generation wine grower Stefan Christmann, life
:47:54. > :47:58.When I took it over from my parents we just sold the wines locally
:47:59. > :48:02.in Germany, but now we export about 40% of our wines and ht's a
:48:03. > :48:05.perfect thing that the Common Market is there, and that we can sdll the
:48:06. > :48:08.wines to Sweden, to Italy, to Spain, and to a lot of different
:48:09. > :48:17.This region has changed hands time and again, as countries have
:48:18. > :48:22.Stefan says it's a history that must never be repeated, and the DU has
:48:23. > :48:32.When I see how Europe works, in world crisis,
:48:33. > :48:35.I would understand that Europe would be much more on one hand powerful,
:48:36. > :48:39.but on the other hand also lore responsible to, to a lot of things,
:48:40. > :48:42.At the end, it should stand something lhke
:48:43. > :48:45.the United States of Europe, but I think that will at least another 20,
:48:46. > :49:04.40, 50 years, but at the end I would say that should be a goal for us.
:49:05. > :49:07.Back in the UK, the very idea of an EU federation
:49:08. > :49:09.state is strongly resisted by politicians across the spectrum but
:49:10. > :49:26.here many people want their country to drink deeper from the EU cup
:49:27. > :49:30.We can only go on together, because Europe can only stand together
:49:31. > :49:33.against the others, for exalple China, the powerful China or Russia.
:49:34. > :49:40.I see myself as a European and wish that as well.
:49:41. > :49:52.Pro`EU parties dominate Gerlan politics.
:49:53. > :49:54.Angela Merkel's Christian Ddmocrats celebrating victory
:49:55. > :49:57.But even Germany now has its own anti`EU party.
:49:58. > :49:59.Alternativa took seven seats in Brussels.
:50:00. > :50:17.It is arguing for reform of the euro and tighter immigration controls.
:50:18. > :50:20.We suggest to have controversial discussions how we can consolidate
:50:21. > :50:23.the eurozone, to allow other people, other states to leave it, to come
:50:24. > :50:26.up, you know, because for the southern countries the euro is too
:50:27. > :50:29.strong and for the Germans ht is too weak, so we could,
:50:30. > :50:46.Beneath the surface in Neustadt there are some concerns
:50:47. > :50:57.Stefan has watched Neustadt change over the past decade.
:50:58. > :51:01.It has to be more and more control over things like over immigration.
:51:02. > :51:06.It's not allowed to be that easy to come in, and get benefits.
:51:07. > :51:09.Neustadt bears the hallmarks of a traditional Germany,
:51:10. > :51:12.but like its country, its identity is closely aligned with that
:51:13. > :51:26.of the EU and most people are happy to see that relationship dedpen
:51:27. > :51:33.Karl McCartney we heard frol Lincoln's twin town of Neustadt Why
:51:34. > :51:37.do the Germans have a different attitude to the EU as us? P`rtly
:51:38. > :51:43.because they will part of the euro and at this part in time thd Germans
:51:44. > :51:46.do very well out of it. If they had their own currency they would be
:51:47. > :51:51.devaluing it to keep their dconomy on track. The fact is that the rest
:51:52. > :51:54.of the European southern st`tes are having to borrow to buy the products
:51:55. > :51:59.that the Germans can sell cheaply and they are doing well out of it, I
:52:00. > :52:05.would imagine most people in Germany think that is a good thing. The EU
:52:06. > :52:10.will have to look different than it does Azerbaijan it does tod`y. I am
:52:11. > :52:14.amazed that the euro technocrats have imagined to get their train
:52:15. > :52:19.back on the track and furthdr down the line after what happened in
:52:20. > :52:23.2007, 8, 9. The Germans and the French want to see a Europe`n
:52:24. > :52:27.superstate but it won't include those countries that are melbers of
:52:28. > :52:33.the EU at this point of timd. The southern states will have the leave.
:52:34. > :52:37.It is like a Ponzi scheme. Ht is unsupport #7b8. You saw in that
:52:38. > :52:41.report there are disgruntle voices when it comes to immigration, is
:52:42. > :52:47.that the issue dominating Etropean politics at the moment? There is a
:52:48. > :52:50.big problem, if you get employers bringing people in, undercutting
:52:51. > :52:54.existing wages and condition, if you get people coming in, taking
:52:55. > :52:57.benefit, when they haven't paid into the tax system, it underminds the
:52:58. > :53:03.European project and it is wrong. And it should be stopped. I have to
:53:04. > :53:07.doubt that that is a problel where ever we are, across the European
:53:08. > :53:11.Union, and you can understand how people feel about it. Polithcians
:53:12. > :53:17.have let, I think, the publhc down, we have do more. How can we stop it?
:53:18. > :53:21.It is part of their policies that free movement of migrants and when
:53:22. > :53:26.we have said in recently, D`vid Cameron has tried to stop the
:53:27. > :53:32.migrants coming over and imlediately accessing benefits, then we are
:53:33. > :53:36.getting taken to court by the European Court of Human Rights,
:53:37. > :53:43.so... You will have to sort it out. That is what we are there to do We
:53:44. > :53:49.are snookered. While we part of the EU we can't control migration and we
:53:50. > :53:55.can't control what happens when hay come over here, that is European
:53:56. > :53:59.policy. I don't see it quitd like that. What is happening employers
:54:00. > :54:02.are taking advantage of loopholes which have emerged to drive down
:54:03. > :54:06.wages and conditions here in Britain. Let us speak about Britain,
:54:07. > :54:13.we have to do something abott it. We have got clear policies and it can
:54:14. > :54:16.be delivered. Most people I know are not against foreigner, they are
:54:17. > :54:20.against being undermined. They are against people coming over taking
:54:21. > :54:25.benefits when they are not dntitled to them. Can David Cameron really
:54:26. > :54:29.promise to control immigrathon, when we continue to be members of the EU?
:54:30. > :54:33.I think we have done, we have proved we have done. It comes back to a
:54:34. > :54:37.point where I was making before and also if you like, the UKIP
:54:38. > :54:41.politician in your studio w`s making, the UKIP, the point that was
:54:42. > :54:45.being made about uncontrolldd immigration that was a feattre, if
:54:46. > :54:50.you like, of 13 years under a Labour Government. Even somebody h`s
:54:51. > :54:55.important within the Labour Party as Lord Mandelson said they got it
:54:56. > :54:59.wrong, it wasn't just we had an open door policy, they sent people across
:55:00. > :55:06.the world to say come to thd UK it is the land of milk and hondy and we
:55:07. > :55:11.are reaping what they sewed. That is something I am proud the
:55:12. > :55:17.Conservative Party has been part of. Jon, in the election campaign when
:55:18. > :55:21.the lady in Rochdale complahned about immigration you heard Gordon
:55:22. > :55:26.Brown's reaction, he said she was a bigot. People are entitled to
:55:27. > :55:29.express views about the condition of the country. There are millhons of
:55:30. > :55:32.people in the country, they work hard that, I play by the rule, and
:55:33. > :55:35.they feel they are being screwed over by the system why others are
:55:36. > :55:40.getting away with what nay describe as murder, and that makes the system
:55:41. > :55:44.very unfair, Labour will cole forward and is doing with a series
:55:45. > :55:49.of proposals to try to resolve that central problem which faces all of
:55:50. > :55:53.us. We need immigration, spdak to the farmers, the food producers in
:55:54. > :55:59.your area, they will tell you we need migrants. We need some
:56:00. > :56:02.immigration, we need some mhgration, nobody is going to argue with that,
:56:03. > :56:07.what we are saying it has to be controlled. And it has, OK, the
:56:08. > :56:11.farmers have the people working on the land, that is fine, but it needs
:56:12. > :56:15.controlling, it needs making sure that these people are looked after,
:56:16. > :56:18.they are not abused by gang leaders, because it is open to all sorts of
:56:19. > :56:22.different types of abuse whdn they come over here and Tay are not
:56:23. > :56:27.legally employed and they are given below the working wage. We will have
:56:28. > :56:29.to move on. We need to get lore of the week's political news. Len has
:56:30. > :56:43.our round up in 60 seconds. Allegations merged of some Bradford
:56:44. > :56:48.schools being caught up in the so`called Trojan horse row of
:56:49. > :56:53.governors trying to impose ` strict Islamist agenda on children and
:56:54. > :56:56.teachers. One leader said there is no evidence it is happening. The
:56:57. > :57:01.police have looked a it. Thd council have looked after it. We have issues
:57:02. > :57:05.we dealt with when they werd raised with us. Government says ond billion
:57:06. > :57:11.will be spent on improving trains in the north. So passengers on the
:57:12. > :57:16.Cleethorpes and Grimsby service to Manchester Airport want to know why
:57:17. > :57:23.they face cuts. Transport connections are vhtal not
:57:24. > :57:29.just to Manchester but to other cities. How is this for cross`party
:57:30. > :57:36.cooperation? 20,000 feet up a mountain in Equador, Labour's John
:57:37. > :57:40.Mann Greg Mulholland and Tr`cey Crouch raising money for thd Royal
:57:41. > :57:46.British Legion. Well done to those MPs. If Greg
:57:47. > :57:50.looks hard from the top of that mountain he may spot a Liberal
:57:51. > :57:56.Democrat voter. Karl McCartney. On to serious matters. We have heard
:57:57. > :57:59.about the various Trojan horse revelation, Michael Gove saxs he
:58:00. > :58:07.wants schools to teach Brithsh values. How would you defind British
:58:08. > :58:12.values? Well, I think we ard a proud traditional nation, there is various
:58:13. > :58:16.historical facts that defind Britishness but also a modern
:58:17. > :58:20.outlook, I am behind what Mhchael Gove has been saying what wd should
:58:21. > :58:28.be doing. Part of the probldm goes back to 2008, 2009, and Whitehall, I
:58:29. > :58:32.think Whitehall hasn't dealt with the issue as soon as it shotld have
:58:33. > :58:35.done. Ofsted need to look at their processes and why they perh`ps
:58:36. > :58:40.haven't dealt with it as quhckly as should have been done. How would you
:58:41. > :58:45.define Britishness? He is rhght We have to have some sort of cohesion
:58:46. > :58:49.where the children feel part of the society and the history that goes
:58:50. > :58:54.back a long way, but I think a good start would be to teach English as a
:58:55. > :58:58.first language. Let us move on the transport. The Government is
:58:59. > :59:01.promising 1 billion investmdnt in the railway network in the north,
:59:02. > :59:06.that has to be a good thing? It would be great to have railways that
:59:07. > :59:09.connect everywhere. I have hn Hemsworth, I have a railway line, a
:59:10. > :59:14.Station Road, the only thing we haven't got is a station.
:59:15. > :59:18.That is going to take seriots investment to get that line up and
:59:19. > :59:23.running? The trains run up `nd down it all the time. They are rtnning
:59:24. > :59:27.backwards and forwards, there is no station but a Station Road. There is
:59:28. > :59:31.lots of places, and seriously, we want to be able to get from
:59:32. > :59:36.Hemsworth, to shopping or to work in Leeds or Sheffield or Doncaster and
:59:37. > :59:41.people having to get into the car more often than not, it is causing
:59:42. > :59:46.pollution and congestion, ldt us get serious investment in the north of
:59:47. > :59:50.England, linking the north together, because we, if we are linked
:59:51. > :59:55.together we will have a stronger and better economy. Karl McCartney, the
:59:56. > :00:05.rail minister says there will have to be trade offs when it coles to
:00:06. > :00:09.investment. Less popular lines. Is that acceptable to you I can
:00:10. > :00:13.understand John's point bec`use any MP wants to do the bestto their
:00:14. > :00:18.constituents. Transport isilportant to me. That is why I have a
:00:19. > :00:21.successful track record of dnsuring there is investment in the road
:00:22. > :00:25.network but importantly the rail network as well. So I can understand
:00:26. > :00:29.from Jon's point of view anx good MP wants to do that. It is verx
:00:30. > :00:33.important, but as part of the Transport Select Committee H was
:00:34. > :00:36.elected on to about 18 months ago we released a report that noted that
:00:37. > :00:44.there is a lot more spent on transplant infrastructure in London,
:00:45. > :00:50.than there is further north. And why not scrap HS2? We haven't got time
:00:51. > :00:57.to get int to HS2. We will leave that for another day. Thank you for
:00:58. > :01:01.your time. You have been watching the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire
:01:02. > :01:11.and Lincolnshire, now let us go back to Andrew in London.
:01:12. > :01:13.There are big changes afoot in the EU following last month's
:01:14. > :01:16.European elections, not least who'll get the top job
:01:17. > :01:20.But behind the scenes the parties have
:01:21. > :01:23.also been jockeying for position as they try to form the big groups that
:01:24. > :01:27.And UKIP seems to have been struggling to keep its influence
:01:28. > :01:36.Here's Adam to explain how it all works.
:01:37. > :01:42.If you want your party to be a big cheese in the European Parliament,
:01:43. > :01:46.you need to form a political group. By doing this, the party gets more
:01:47. > :01:52.money, more positions on committees and even more speaking rights in the
:01:53. > :01:57.chamber. But the parliament's rules are strict. And to form a group you
:01:58. > :02:01.need a group of 25 MPs from at least seven different countries. For UKIP,
:02:02. > :02:06.the number of MEPs will not be a problem because they already have 24
:02:07. > :02:09.of their own, but the different nationalities are more of a
:02:10. > :02:13.challenge. Nigel Farage was not helped by the Tories stealing -
:02:14. > :02:21.stealing his former Danish and Finnish allies, and the pen pinching
:02:22. > :02:26.his Italian charms. Nigel needs a new charm and fast. He has already
:02:27. > :02:32.signed up Lithuania's order and justice, a free citizen from Prague,
:02:33. > :02:40.and the Dutchman from the reformed political party. The big signing was
:02:41. > :02:43.the 17 members of the Italian Beppe Griego's 5-star movement, but it
:02:44. > :02:47.leaves UKIP short of two more international powers, and with the
:02:48. > :02:50.clock ticking, it looks like his hopes resting on the Swedish
:02:51. > :02:52.Democrats and the Polish new right Congress. They both make their
:02:53. > :03:03.decisions next week. What is the latest? UKIP have enough
:03:04. > :03:09.MEPs with their pals, but they need seven countries, as I understand it.
:03:10. > :03:12.They are not there yet. They are wrapped five countries and need
:03:13. > :03:15.another two. UKIP are being quite buoyant and say they will be meeting
:03:16. > :03:19.MEPs from five countries next week and are pretty confident they will
:03:20. > :03:23.get those countries, but as Adam was saying, the problem UKIP have had is
:03:24. > :03:32.that the Conservatives have nicked two of the parties. That is why they
:03:33. > :03:37.have been struggling, but they say they are confident they will do it.
:03:38. > :03:43.Meanwhile, the Tories new best friends are the German Eurosceptic
:03:44. > :03:46.party, which has put Mrs Merkel s nose out of joint, but we don't
:03:47. > :03:53.quite know whether she really cares or not. I think Cameron has played
:03:54. > :04:01.his hand badly since he committed to pulling out of the EBP. And he
:04:02. > :04:07.should be in there with Angela Merkel and if he needs to make a
:04:08. > :04:13.major renegotiation, he needs to have the Germans onside. Instead
:04:14. > :04:17.there is a breakaway party and its like supporting UKIP. His party are
:04:18. > :04:22.supporting her worst enemy. It certainly causing him a lot of
:04:23. > :04:26.problems, and undermines his negotiating position, but isn't
:04:27. > :04:31.there an honesty that the centre-right group is explicitly
:04:32. > :04:35.Federalist, and the Tories are anything but, so they came out, and
:04:36. > :04:41.Labour are in the Socialist group, which is explicitly Federalist, and
:04:42. > :04:45.they are not Federalist either. If you want support and influence in
:04:46. > :04:49.Europe, you have to trade, and he hasn't done this well. The whole
:04:50. > :04:54.business with who will be the next president, he needs Angela Merkel's
:04:55. > :04:58.support. Without that, it won't happen. He should have been trading
:04:59. > :05:06.behind-the-scenes, but he has exposed himself in public, and if he
:05:07. > :05:09.doesn't win it looks uncertain, and he will be in a position where he
:05:10. > :05:13.has to go back to his own party and say they are not getting anywhere.
:05:14. > :05:20.That is dangerous and takes us closer to the Exeter, which I don't
:05:21. > :05:25.think would want. The danger for Mr Cameron is if it is the president of
:05:26. > :05:27.the commission, he will save you cannot stop a federalist becoming
:05:28. > :05:31.head of the European commission what chance do you have of
:05:32. > :05:38.repatriating lots of powers back to London. There are lots of Tory MPs
:05:39. > :05:44.dying to make the argument. My hunch is that he won't make it. There are
:05:45. > :05:46.too many countries opposed to his presidency and even the country
:05:47. > :05:52.notionally in favour of it, Germany, is failing in youth -- enthusiasm.
:05:53. > :05:58.Angela Merkel cannot be seen to give in to the Brits this. Her own side
:05:59. > :06:06.once it as well, though some reason the German media says it. When she
:06:07. > :06:10.tried to reach out and said to look at the other candidates, she got
:06:11. > :06:16.such abuse on the right wing press from her own country and party she
:06:17. > :06:25.had to retreat. Janan is right that there is opposition to Juncker, but
:06:26. > :06:29.as long as Cameron turns it into an argument about Britain and Europe,
:06:30. > :06:37.he will strengthen the hand of Juncker. Angela Merkel thinks
:06:38. > :06:40.Juncker is inappropriate. She did not like the process, which was a
:06:41. > :06:43.power grab by the European Parliament, but when David Cameron
:06:44. > :06:48.went to the council and said that if I don't get my way, we could leave
:06:49. > :06:54.the EU, that led to the backlash, most significantly from the SPD in
:06:55. > :06:59.Germany. As Tony Blair says, if only David Cameron had made the argument
:07:00. > :07:01.that Juncker is bad for Europe, then he would have found his natural
:07:02. > :07:06.allies would have felt more comfortable following behind. Enough
:07:07. > :07:15.Europe. I want to show you a picture. See what you think of this.
:07:16. > :07:21.When I saw that picture, I thought it was so ludicrous that it had to
:07:22. > :07:25.have been photo shop. Discuss. He is holding it with a certain disdain,
:07:26. > :07:30.looking a bit hangdog. A disastrous picture for Ed Miliband. His
:07:31. > :07:35.strength is authenticity, sincerity and cleverness. And he blows all of
:07:36. > :07:40.that. He was the one who took on Murdoch, very bravely and
:07:41. > :07:45.dangerously, and one, really. Now there he is supporting Murdoch's
:07:46. > :07:48.son. It's a big mistake, not just in Liverpool, where obviously they are
:07:49. > :07:55.particularly incensed. And then he apologises. Sort of apologises and
:07:56. > :08:00.understands why Liverpool feels upset. But it is a fundamental error
:08:01. > :08:03.and I hope he learns from this, that he must absolutely stay true to
:08:04. > :08:10.himself. That's all he's got going for him. Who do we blame? His
:08:11. > :08:20.advisers or himself? In the end himself. Nobody forced him to do it.
:08:21. > :08:27.On this one, he called it wrong It's a sign of the rather the bridal
:08:28. > :08:31.state of the Labour Party is that his candidates were vocal in
:08:32. > :08:38.attacking him doing this. It's a sign of how readable Ed Miliband is
:08:39. > :08:44.at Parliamentary level. I don't think you should have apologised.
:08:45. > :08:52.The mistake he made was associating himself with that newspaper. The
:08:53. > :08:57.mistake was the prior three years when he went too far as portraying
:08:58. > :09:00.the Murdoch empire beyond the pale. He made a case against phone hacking
:09:01. > :09:06.and offences in that regard without going as far as he did with the
:09:07. > :09:09.rhetoric. To do that, and then pose with the Sun newspaper, the
:09:10. > :09:15.juxtaposition is what did for him, not the mere fact of posing with it.
:09:16. > :09:17.Maybe he did not know what he was doing because we were told he
:09:18. > :09:21.doesn't read the British newspapers. It was football, and he
:09:22. > :09:28.has posed with the Sun newspaper before. Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg
:09:29. > :09:31.posed as well. But with the Sun newspaper and football, you tread
:09:32. > :09:35.carefully. That was the mistake You get the impression from the picture
:09:36. > :09:38.that he looks so uncomfortable that you wonder whether there was a full
:09:39. > :09:42.process of consultation that went on within his media operation, within
:09:43. > :09:45.his political operation. Was he fully aware of what would happen
:09:46. > :09:48.question what he looks so incredibly uncomfortable. But at the end of the
:09:49. > :09:55.day, leaders have to take responsibility. It is cultural as
:09:56. > :09:58.well. That picture says, I am down there with the football blokes and
:09:59. > :10:03.you think, you are not. That is not what people will vote for. Be
:10:04. > :10:06.yourself and don't pretend to be something else because it never
:10:07. > :10:12.works. But the polls suggest that the British voters don't yet see Ed
:10:13. > :10:16.Miliband as prime ministerial. The worst thing you can then do is get
:10:17. > :10:20.involved in stunts that are more likely to reinforce that idea than
:10:21. > :10:24.counter it. There was a precedent for it in the last parliament which
:10:25. > :10:30.was Gordon Brown's attempts to feign a populist touch. He did it by
:10:31. > :10:37.telling the contents of his iPod. The Arctic monkeys. It always jarred
:10:38. > :10:40.because he was trying too hard. Not uniquely guilty of, Ed Miliband all
:10:41. > :10:44.the other leaders have done it. At the moment he more vulnerable. Yes,
:10:45. > :10:50.and he is less popular than his party. Labour has quite a popular
:10:51. > :10:54.brand, in a resilient way, in a way they don't with the Tories, yet
:10:55. > :10:58.their leader is a personal problem. The pressure is on him to do stunts
:10:59. > :11:03.like this. Will there be a shadow cabinet reshuffle? Yes, we have to
:11:04. > :11:06.get the cabinet reshuffle out of the way first, and that might come next
:11:07. > :11:10.week, maybe by the time of the summer recess, but the first thing
:11:11. > :11:15.that the prime Minister do is work out who is the UK candidate for the
:11:16. > :11:20.European Commissioner. Is it not the case probably that Ed Balls is
:11:21. > :11:25.becoming semi-detached from the Ed Miliband project? I don't think
:11:26. > :11:28.entirely. Nothing gets agreed without both of the end are green.
:11:29. > :11:33.Ed Balls is controversial. He has great pluses and minuses and is a
:11:34. > :11:38.big figure. Labour doesn't have that many big figures. It's quite hard to
:11:39. > :11:40.think who would be a heavy hitter as a possible Chancellor. He is a
:11:41. > :11:48.convincing chancellor to the future, Love him. He has the heft -- love
:11:49. > :11:53.him or hate him. Any possibility Ed Balls could be moved as shadow
:11:54. > :11:56.chancellor? The timing is convenient because the Scottish referendum ends
:11:57. > :12:00.in the autumn and Alistair Darling becomes a free man, win or lose I
:12:01. > :12:03.don't think Ed Balls will be removed because moving him would be an
:12:04. > :12:06.admission that everything the Labour Party said about the economy to the
:12:07. > :12:10.preceding four years has been a mistake. And you can't do that nine
:12:11. > :12:15.months before a general election. You invite ridicule. But relations
:12:16. > :12:19.between Ed Miliband and Ed Balls are not great at the moment. The Ed
:12:20. > :12:22.Miliband team are very, very suspicious of this new love in
:12:23. > :12:27.between Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson. Mandelson likes to say
:12:28. > :12:30.that he spotted the Ed Balls talents in the original place and appointed
:12:31. > :12:36.him to the Gordon Brown team after the disaster of 1992. But things
:12:37. > :12:42.obviously went awry, and now Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson Avenue
:12:43. > :12:46.Rappaport, and that is with enormous suspicion -- they have a new
:12:47. > :12:49.Rappaport. With good reason because it's about policy. It's about the
:12:50. > :12:54.attitude towards business. Should they be out there saying they will
:12:55. > :12:59.get the tax dodgers, Starbucks, Vodafone, are we going to take on
:13:00. > :13:03.business in a big way? In a way that Ed Miliband has quite bravely said.
:13:04. > :13:07.On the other hand, Ed Balls and Peter Mandelson are saying, hang on,
:13:08. > :13:09.we only won in 1997 by being business friendly. Sorry to rush
:13:10. > :13:11.you. We are running out of time The Daily Politics will be back
:13:12. > :13:15.every day this week at midday, and I'll be back here next Sunday
:13:16. > :13:18.when I'll be joined by the shadow work and pensions
:13:19. > :13:20.secretary Rachel Reeves.Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:21. > :13:52.it's the Sunday Politics. Magnificent. The power base
:13:53. > :13:58.of medieval England. Charles' ceiling was a piece
:13:59. > :14:04.of breathtaking arrogance. You get a sense of the people
:14:05. > :14:12.who made the palaces. as I unlock the secrets
:14:13. > :14:15.of Britain's great palaces.