:00:38. > :00:48.No surprise that Mr Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit.
:00:49. > :00:51.But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit?
:00:52. > :00:54.Doctors want to ban smoking outright.
:00:55. > :00:57.A sensible health measure or the health lobby's secret plan all
:00:58. > :01:18.On the Sunday politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Why these
:01:19. > :01:28.anti`fracking protesters have set up camp even though there are
:01:29. > :01:31.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political
:01:32. > :01:42.panel in the business Nick Watt Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:01:43. > :01:45.They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in
:01:46. > :01:47.Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence
:01:48. > :01:49.He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made
:01:50. > :01:51.it big in the world of European politic.
:01:52. > :01:55.I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg
:01:56. > :01:59.He'll soon be President of the European Commission,
:02:00. > :02:05.He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course.
:02:06. > :02:09.But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up
:02:10. > :02:24.on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker.
:02:25. > :02:27.-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist
:02:28. > :02:29.So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes
:02:30. > :02:32.of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK?
:02:33. > :02:37.Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington
:02:38. > :02:44.Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr
:02:45. > :02:47.Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got
:02:48. > :02:52.harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The
:02:53. > :02:57.majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts
:02:58. > :03:02.power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right
:03:03. > :03:09.cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European
:03:10. > :03:18.Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European
:03:19. > :03:21.countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of
:03:22. > :03:24.Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on
:03:25. > :03:27.how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the
:03:28. > :03:32.mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming
:03:33. > :03:37.European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The
:03:38. > :03:44.Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to
:03:45. > :03:49.integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you.
:03:50. > :03:53.What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at
:03:54. > :04:02.different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new
:04:03. > :04:12.Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the
:04:13. > :04:17.approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime
:04:18. > :04:20.Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general
:04:21. > :04:25.acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to
:04:26. > :04:28.the single currency will want to press forward with closer
:04:29. > :04:33.integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country
:04:34. > :04:38.in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern
:04:39. > :04:42.that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with
:04:43. > :04:48.28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the
:04:49. > :04:53.extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and
:04:54. > :04:56.integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable
:04:57. > :05:01.geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is
:05:02. > :05:04.that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the
:05:05. > :05:10.slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which
:05:11. > :05:23.backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that
:05:24. > :05:27.there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to
:05:28. > :05:29.seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the
:05:30. > :05:33.election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the
:05:34. > :05:37.British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the
:05:38. > :05:40.British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will
:05:41. > :05:43.take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron
:05:44. > :05:48.secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance,
:05:49. > :05:53.not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with
:05:54. > :05:59.Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't
:06:00. > :06:03.think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of
:06:04. > :06:11.reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do
:06:12. > :06:23.put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission
:06:24. > :06:28.to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers
:06:29. > :06:32.around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things
:06:33. > :06:36.cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger
:06:37. > :06:40.of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of
:06:41. > :06:43.work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of
:06:44. > :06:46.countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election
:06:47. > :06:51.results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing
:06:52. > :06:53.parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing
:06:54. > :07:01.real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch
:07:02. > :07:05.decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the
:07:06. > :07:11.condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would
:07:12. > :07:17.have to put that question to some of the heads of European government.
:07:18. > :07:20.Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role
:07:21. > :07:28.in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed
:07:29. > :07:32.up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from
:07:33. > :07:37.that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I
:07:38. > :07:40.think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and
:07:41. > :07:45.it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament
:07:46. > :07:50.to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce.
:07:51. > :07:55.They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are
:07:56. > :08:01.the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms
:08:02. > :08:08.of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The
:08:09. > :08:15.current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The
:08:16. > :08:20.Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are?
:08:21. > :08:25.We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at
:08:26. > :08:28.the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on
:08:29. > :08:38.whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you
:08:39. > :08:41.think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest but
:08:42. > :08:46.also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't
:08:47. > :08:51.challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform.
:08:52. > :08:55.Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of
:08:56. > :08:58.State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the
:08:59. > :09:02.existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He
:09:03. > :09:06.doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is
:09:07. > :09:09.the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the
:09:10. > :09:16.position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a
:09:17. > :09:22.distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government
:09:23. > :09:24.now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and
:09:25. > :09:29.the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that
:09:30. > :09:33.important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and
:09:34. > :09:37.that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a
:09:38. > :09:44.whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going
:09:45. > :09:49.to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in
:09:50. > :09:53.2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today For
:09:54. > :09:56.one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press
:09:57. > :10:01.ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done
:10:02. > :10:06.in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain
:10:07. > :10:10.outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of
:10:11. > :10:13.migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this
:10:14. > :10:17.week and we should welcome that Very briefly, finally, when will
:10:18. > :10:21.you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the
:10:22. > :10:24.government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the
:10:25. > :10:31.election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg
:10:32. > :10:36.speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable,
:10:37. > :10:39.more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is
:10:40. > :10:43.all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's
:10:44. > :10:48.not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in
:10:49. > :10:54.the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries
:10:55. > :10:58.those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories
:10:59. > :11:02.and I'm sure the Prime Minister as we get towards the general election,
:11:03. > :11:05.will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and
:11:06. > :11:13.perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank
:11:14. > :11:17.you for joining us this morning The harsh reality of this is that there
:11:18. > :11:21.is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring
:11:22. > :11:25.back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I
:11:26. > :11:30.think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts,
:11:31. > :11:33.those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay
:11:34. > :11:36.regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on
:11:37. > :11:41.renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would
:11:42. > :11:45.vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20
:11:46. > :11:49.years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only
:11:50. > :11:53.stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be
:11:54. > :12:00.re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the
:12:01. > :12:03.referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single
:12:04. > :12:08.biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not
:12:09. > :12:13.what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure
:12:14. > :12:17.to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against
:12:18. > :12:21.Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr
:12:22. > :12:25.Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only
:12:26. > :12:30.because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these
:12:31. > :12:33.changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that
:12:34. > :12:39.would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the
:12:40. > :12:44.biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of
:12:45. > :12:51.coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of
:12:52. > :12:54.benefits, and he might get that He wants to restrict freedom of
:12:55. > :12:58.movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is
:12:59. > :13:02.a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is
:13:03. > :13:05.also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was
:13:06. > :13:10.encouraged because it said, let s look at closer union, but it did not
:13:11. > :13:14.say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted
:13:15. > :13:17.in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The
:13:18. > :13:28.fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when
:13:29. > :13:31.he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling
:13:32. > :13:34.to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela
:13:35. > :13:36.Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the
:13:37. > :13:40.European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it,
:13:41. > :13:43.he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this
:13:44. > :13:47.basic stitch up by the European Parliament that meant he was
:13:48. > :13:51.presented, and when Angela Merkel put the question over his head there
:13:52. > :13:56.was a huge backlash in Germany and she was unable to deliver. I
:13:57. > :13:59.understand that, but I'm looking forward to Mr Cameron's predicament.
:14:00. > :14:05.I don't know how he squares the circle. It seems inconceivable that
:14:06. > :14:10.he can bring back enough from Brussels to satisfy his
:14:11. > :14:14.backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of them fundamentally want out. They
:14:15. > :14:17.don't want to be persuaded by renegotiations. Where it's hard to
:14:18. > :14:21.draw conclusions from the polling is that if you ask people question that
:14:22. > :14:24.sounds like, do you like the fact that our Prime Minister has gone to
:14:25. > :14:28.Brussels and stuck it to the man, they say yes, but how many people
:14:29. > :14:33.will go to the voting booths and put their cross in the box based on
:14:34. > :14:40.Europe? We know mostly voters care about Europe as a proxy for
:14:41. > :14:42.immigration fears. In ten people in this country could not tell you who
:14:43. > :14:44.John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir is replacing. -- and who he is
:14:45. > :14:48.replacing. And I'm joined in the studio now by
:14:49. > :14:51.arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by
:14:52. > :15:12.staunch European and former Liberal war? His declared objectives would
:15:13. > :15:15.leave Britain still in the common agricultural policy, the common
:15:16. > :15:24.foreign policy, the European arrest warrant, so the negotiating aims
:15:25. > :15:26.which we just heard Nick setting out wouldn't fundamentally change
:15:27. > :15:35.anything. It would be easy for the Government to declare war on any of
:15:36. > :15:40.these things. The danger from your point of view as someone who wants
:15:41. > :15:44.to stay in is that if David Cameron only gets cosmetic changes, the
:15:45. > :15:49.chance of getting the vote to leave the European Union increases,
:15:50. > :15:57.doesn't it? Hypothetically it probably does but we have two big
:15:58. > :16:03.things to get through first in domestic politics before we even
:16:04. > :16:07.reach a negotiation. One is are we going to have the United Kingdom
:16:08. > :16:13.this time next year following the referendum in Scotland? Secondly,
:16:14. > :16:17.are the Conservatives after the general election next year going to
:16:18. > :16:23.be in a position to pursue a negotiation? In other words are they
:16:24. > :16:28.going to be a majority government or even a minority government? For the
:16:29. > :16:32.sake of this morning let's assume the answer to both is yes, the UK
:16:33. > :16:38.stays intact and against the polls they were saying this morning, David
:16:39. > :16:42.Cameron forms an overall majority after the election. There is a
:16:43. > :16:50.danger, if he doesn't bring much back, that people will vote yes
:16:51. > :16:54.correct? There is that danger and I see a lot of the British press
:16:55. > :16:59.comment this morning saying this could be a rerun of the Harold
:17:00. > :17:04.Wilson like negotiation of the 1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to
:17:05. > :17:09.say we have got new terms and you should go with it. I think what is
:17:10. > :17:14.different however, and this is really an appeal if you like, it
:17:15. > :17:18.cannot just be left to the Liberal Democrats and coalition government
:17:19. > :17:24.to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land
:17:25. > :17:28.will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on
:17:29. > :17:34.the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European
:17:35. > :17:38.Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the
:17:39. > :17:42.line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting
:17:43. > :17:54.dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will
:17:55. > :18:00.not get away with this, will he It will be an acceptable to his party.
:18:01. > :18:05.If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is
:18:06. > :18:10.working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority
:18:11. > :18:14.of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see
:18:15. > :18:19.there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined
:18:20. > :18:24.ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had
:18:25. > :18:31.about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it
:18:32. > :18:34.is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a
:18:35. > :18:40.referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister, it has serious
:18:41. > :18:46.consequences for his party, your party, that's what I'm talking
:18:47. > :18:50.about. I am very proud of being part of the party that is trusting people
:18:51. > :18:57.to offer this. If he only gets cosmetic changes he cannot carry his
:18:58. > :19:02.party. But ultimately it will not be his party, it is the electorate as a
:19:03. > :19:06.whole that has to decide whether the changes are substantive. Everything
:19:07. > :19:11.we have been hearing just now is about staying out of future
:19:12. > :19:15.integration, protecting the role of the non-euro countries. People are
:19:16. > :19:20.upset about what is going on today with the EU. They can see laws being
:19:21. > :19:25.passed by people they cannot vote for, friendships overseas are
:19:26. > :19:29.prejudiced, and they conceive that the European Union has just put in
:19:30. > :19:34.charge in the top slot somebody who wants a United States of Europe into
:19:35. > :19:40.which we will eventually be dragged into as some kind of Providence
:19:41. > :19:50.Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist, you are Federalist, why did the Lib
:19:51. > :19:54.Dems oppose him? We shared the view that whilst you take account of what
:19:55. > :19:58.the members of the European Parliament say, ultimately the
:19:59. > :20:02.choice of the presidency in the commission should be the political
:20:03. > :20:07.leaders, the governmental leaders at a national level, and that's why we
:20:08. > :20:12.went down the route we did. It was more to do with the system than the
:20:13. > :20:17.individual. Although I would say that you need to bear in mind, I
:20:18. > :20:22.mean Daniel, I respect him personally and the integrity of his
:20:23. > :20:29.views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a
:20:30. > :20:34.small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of
:20:35. > :20:44.America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is
:20:45. > :20:56.really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we
:20:57. > :21:02.closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the
:21:03. > :21:11.idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers
:21:12. > :21:19.back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly
:21:20. > :21:24.been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that
:21:25. > :21:29.has taken shape on our doorstep Are we going to be part of that or are
:21:30. > :21:33.we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship
:21:34. > :21:45.with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or
:21:46. > :21:50.another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on
:21:51. > :21:54.and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can
:21:55. > :21:59.remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the
:22:00. > :22:05.referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it
:22:06. > :22:10.sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is
:22:11. > :22:17.a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we
:22:18. > :22:27.will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to
:22:28. > :22:32.ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I
:22:33. > :22:36.thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the
:22:37. > :22:43.Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional
:22:44. > :22:47.implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to
:22:48. > :22:55.established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we
:22:56. > :22:58.mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the
:22:59. > :23:03.institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by
:23:04. > :23:11.federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate
:23:12. > :23:14.but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains
:23:15. > :23:24.national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it
:23:25. > :23:27.makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the
:23:28. > :23:38.Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU
:23:39. > :23:42.wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you
:23:43. > :23:49.liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to
:23:50. > :23:52.you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be
:23:53. > :23:58.disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only
:23:59. > :24:03.had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries,
:24:04. > :24:10.France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of
:24:11. > :24:15.menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the
:24:16. > :24:23.North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an
:24:24. > :24:33.army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms
:24:34. > :24:37.of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you
:24:38. > :24:41.can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having
:24:42. > :24:46.the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the
:24:47. > :24:52.United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you,
:24:53. > :24:58.Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is
:24:59. > :25:03.an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want
:25:04. > :25:07.to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a
:25:08. > :25:23.referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he
:25:24. > :25:28.was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and
:25:29. > :25:31.restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw
:25:32. > :25:37.everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born
:25:38. > :25:41.after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those
:25:42. > :25:48.plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British
:25:49. > :25:53.was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men
:25:54. > :25:58.smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a
:25:59. > :26:02.political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in
:26:03. > :26:12.those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile,
:26:13. > :26:17.more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that
:26:18. > :26:28.thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in
:26:29. > :26:32.enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately
:26:33. > :26:38.we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think
:26:39. > :26:44.it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has
:26:45. > :26:48.improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma.
:26:49. > :26:54.Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on
:26:55. > :26:59.those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the
:27:00. > :27:06.introduction of plain packaging There is still those who take pride
:27:07. > :27:19.in smoking and see it as a war on freedom.
:27:20. > :27:22.We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson
:27:23. > :27:25.from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban
:27:26. > :27:29.on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark
:27:30. > :27:38.They're here to go head-to-head There are plenty of things which are
:27:39. > :27:48.bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in
:27:49. > :27:52.our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as
:27:53. > :27:57.children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start
:27:58. > :28:02.smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for
:28:03. > :28:06.you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we
:28:07. > :28:11.totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make
:28:12. > :28:16.that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol
:28:17. > :28:20.eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is
:28:21. > :28:25.totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes
:28:26. > :28:28.which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping
:28:29. > :28:34.children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops
:28:35. > :28:39.shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so
:28:40. > :28:45.you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a
:28:46. > :28:50.36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you
:28:51. > :28:54.will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the
:28:55. > :28:58.younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily
:28:59. > :29:04.addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this
:29:05. > :29:09.becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you
:29:10. > :29:13.would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have
:29:14. > :29:17.no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if
:29:18. > :29:23.we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 2
:29:24. > :29:27.years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't
:29:28. > :29:32.have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their
:29:33. > :29:36.20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes
:29:37. > :29:39.the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting
:29:40. > :29:46.cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get
:29:47. > :29:56.better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is
:29:57. > :30:01.going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever.
:30:02. > :30:05.Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see
:30:06. > :30:09.adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is
:30:10. > :30:14.for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop
:30:15. > :30:17.young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they
:30:18. > :30:28.never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds
:30:29. > :30:33.who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government
:30:34. > :30:37.increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to
:30:38. > :30:43.18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing,
:30:44. > :30:46.we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal
:30:47. > :30:52.says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a
:30:53. > :30:55.motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There
:30:56. > :30:59.is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they
:31:00. > :31:03.doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not
:31:04. > :31:06.about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and
:31:07. > :31:10.they have to get their act together because they are bringing the
:31:11. > :31:15.medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about
:31:16. > :31:20.things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places,
:31:21. > :31:22.but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes
:31:23. > :31:28.altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It s
:31:29. > :31:33.not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to
:31:34. > :31:37.smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would
:31:38. > :31:44.be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So
:31:45. > :31:47.even if I am born in the year 2 00, it would still be illegal to smoke,
:31:48. > :31:54.just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the
:31:55. > :31:58.habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so
:31:59. > :32:02.that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so
:32:03. > :32:06.important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes One
:32:07. > :32:09.thing you will find is that throughout the world people is
:32:10. > :32:13.looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and
:32:14. > :32:17.different countries like Australia, they were the first with a
:32:18. > :32:20.standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all
:32:21. > :32:26.of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the
:32:27. > :32:30.tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with
:32:31. > :32:33.cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going
:32:34. > :32:37.head-to-head. "Unless we have more equal
:32:38. > :32:41.representation, our politics won't be half as good as it should be "
:32:42. > :32:43.So said David Cameron back in 2 09. So how's it going?
:32:44. > :32:45.Well, you can judge the quality of the politics for yourself,
:32:46. > :32:48.but we've been crunching the numbers to find out what
:32:49. > :32:49.parliament might look like after the next year's general election.
:32:50. > :32:56.Here's Giles. Politicians are elected to
:32:57. > :32:59.Parliament to represent their constituents, but the make-up of
:33:00. > :33:05.Parliament does not reflect society well at all the parties it. In 010
:33:06. > :33:09.more women and ethnic minority candidates entered Westminster but
:33:10. > :33:17.not significantly more inner chamber still dominated by white males.
:33:18. > :33:23.Looking at the current make-up of the Commons, Labour has 83 female
:33:24. > :33:30.MPs, the Conservative have 47 women MPs, which is just over 47% -- and
:33:31. > :33:34.the Lib Dems have 12% of the parties. All of the parties have
:33:35. > :33:37.selected parliaments in those seats where existing MPs are retiring and
:33:38. > :33:40.to fight seats at the next election, and they've all been
:33:41. > :33:45.trying to up the number of women and ethnic minorities because discounts
:33:46. > :33:50.and can be capitalised on. A picture tells a thousand words. Look at the
:33:51. > :33:55.all-male front bench before us. And he says he wants to represent the
:33:56. > :33:58.whole country. Despite the jibe the Labour Party know they have a long
:33:59. > :34:10.way to go on the issue of being representative. So we
:34:11. > :34:11.way to go on the issue of being look at this particular area of lack
:34:12. > :34:11.of women and ethnic minorities. Women first.
:34:12. > :34:43.In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they
:34:44. > :34:49.got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 1%
:34:50. > :34:51.The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy
:34:52. > :34:53.at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most
:34:54. > :34:56.marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn
:34:57. > :35:00.In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected
:35:01. > :35:05.If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones
:35:06. > :35:09.they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time.
:35:10. > :35:12.The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won
:35:13. > :35:15.at the last election, if they manage that, they would have
:35:16. > :35:20.However all the indications are it could be
:35:21. > :35:24.a bad night for the Lib Dems, if they lost 20 seats, on a uniform
:35:25. > :35:29.swing it would leave them with just four women, 11% of the party.
:35:30. > :35:33.One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all
:35:34. > :35:36.options if it's female numbers go down in 2015, says Parliament is
:35:37. > :35:51.The bottom line is, if 50% of our population is not being looked at
:35:52. > :35:58.evenly, are we really using the best of our talent? And yes, women's life
:35:59. > :36:01.experiences are different. They are not superior, they are not inferior.
:36:02. > :36:03.They are different. But surely those life experiences need to be
:36:04. > :36:07.represented here at Westminster So that's the Parliamentary
:36:08. > :36:09.projection for gender, According to the last census
:36:10. > :36:15.in 2011, 13% of people in the UK Labour currently has 16 MPs from
:36:16. > :36:20.black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds or just over 6%, if they
:36:21. > :36:24.get their extra 68 seats that figure would go up to 26, 8% of their party
:36:25. > :36:28.were from BAME backgrounds. The Tories currently have 11 BAME
:36:29. > :36:35.candidates, or 4% of the party. If they get an extra 29 seats,
:36:36. > :36:38.that would mean 14 BAME MPs, The Liberal Democrats
:36:39. > :36:47.don't have any BAME MPs. If they manage to cling
:36:48. > :36:52.on to their current number of seats they would have two,
:36:53. > :36:55.giving them a proportion of 4%. If they lost
:36:56. > :36:57.their 20 most vulnerable seats, But even if you changed the mix
:36:58. > :37:07.of gender and ethnicity in Parliament would that solve
:37:08. > :37:09.the problem? Probably not. Only 10% of us have gone to
:37:10. > :37:13.a private fee paid school. A Quarter of all Mps went to Oxford
:37:14. > :37:22.or Cambridge. Only a fifth
:37:23. > :37:29.of us went to any university. There is a huge disillusionment with
:37:30. > :37:33.the political elite due to the fact that these people don't look like
:37:34. > :37:36.us. They don't speak like us, they don't have our experiences and they
:37:37. > :37:41.cannot communicate in a way we relate to. If you look at the
:37:42. > :37:44.turnout, at the moment, if you are an unskilled worker, you are 20
:37:45. > :37:47.points less likely to turn and vote than a middle-class professional and
:37:48. > :37:49.that is getting worse with single election.
:37:50. > :37:52.And that's the key, evidence does suggest that if a
:37:53. > :37:55.Party reflects the society it exists within, it is more likely to get
:37:56. > :38:04.It's just gone 11.35pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:05. > :38:07.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:08. > :38:11.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll have more from the panel.
:38:12. > :38:21.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:22. > :38:23.Yes, hello you are watching Sunday Politics for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire
:38:24. > :38:30.Today you're going to be he`ring of the F word.
:38:31. > :38:35.Find out why these protesters have set up camp although we havd been
:38:36. > :38:41.told there are no plans to drill for shale gas at this particular site.
:38:42. > :38:44.And later, we will find out why some voters will soon be getting
:38:45. > :38:49.the chance to elect the people who run our National Parks.
:38:50. > :38:54.Let's say hello to our guests today is Julian Smith Conservativd MP
:38:55. > :38:57.And Toby Perkins, Labour MP for Chesterfield.
:38:58. > :39:02.Let's get your initial thoughts 1st on fracking, Julian Smith.
:39:03. > :39:05.I think it is great this government has got behind fracking.
:39:06. > :39:10.Part of a package of measurds to lower your viewers energy bhlls
:39:11. > :39:13.the energy bills of businesses And to make sure along with cutting
:39:14. > :39:17.the green taxes, there is more competition in the energy sdctor and
:39:18. > :39:21.a whole host of measures ensuring that pdople pay
:39:22. > :39:27.So it is all about cutting energy bills, Toby Perkins?
:39:28. > :39:29.I think the government's policy is all about focusing on anythhng other
:39:30. > :39:33.than asking the big energy companies to cut their profits of course.
:39:34. > :39:37.I think that there is a rold for fracking to be investig`ted
:39:38. > :39:41.but I think the first thing we have to do is create
:39:42. > :39:44.a long`term confidence in fracking, we need to get people onsidd.
:39:45. > :39:48.The rush to do this from an economic perspective without convinchng
:39:49. > :39:52.people on the environmental aspects is why I think there is a lot
:39:53. > :39:57.The government need to get the policy right because it does have
:39:58. > :40:02.So is fracking the magic solution to our ftture
:40:03. > :40:10.energy needs or a high risk gamble with our fragile environment?
:40:11. > :40:15.Paul Murphy has been speaking with those on both sides of the debate.
:40:16. > :40:23.This protest camp on a country lane in East Yorkshire
:40:24. > :40:28.This protest group are drawn from all over the UK.
:40:29. > :40:30.A determined group determindd to highlights what they say is
:40:31. > :40:39.People moved here because of it s rural character, if they find shale
:40:40. > :40:43.gas and that, there means what will be left is an industrial wasteland.
:40:44. > :40:45.We are losing complete control of land sovereignty in this cotntry.
:40:46. > :40:49.We are losing all of our rights and we're here to make a st`nd
:40:50. > :40:52.This industry has no social license here.
:40:53. > :40:55.This is the process they're worried about.
:40:56. > :40:58.Fracking involves drlling down and creating tiny explosions to
:40:59. > :41:02.shatter and crack harder sh`le rock to release the gas inside.
:41:03. > :41:06.Water, sand and chemicals are injected into the rock at hhgh
:41:07. > :41:10.pressure which allows the rock gas to flow out to the head of the well.
:41:11. > :41:14.But there are concerns that harmful chemicals can sometimes esc`pe
:41:15. > :41:20.and find their way into drinking water sources.
:41:21. > :41:23.Crucially though, there is no fracking at this site and the
:41:24. > :41:26.drilling company which oper`tes here said it does not intend to frack.
:41:27. > :41:29.It is more interested in conventional gas exploration
:41:30. > :41:35.If people repeat the same mis`information often
:41:36. > :41:38.enough there is a risk that people might start to believe it.
:41:39. > :41:42.The added fact here is this is an explanation of an explicit condition
:41:43. > :41:45.of a planning application that will not carry out fracking at this site.
:41:46. > :41:50.There is no fracking taking place in the UK at present but thd
:41:51. > :41:56.A visit to Lincolnshire earlier in the year, the Prime Minister
:41:57. > :42:03.Shale is important for our country, it could bring 74,000 jobs,
:42:04. > :42:07.over ?3 billion of investment, give us cheaper energy for the ftture
:42:08. > :42:12.Large parts of the UK have already been opened
:42:13. > :42:17.The government is considering expanding this to
:42:18. > :42:25.According to a recent Parli`mentary select committee report, thdre is
:42:26. > :42:28.a real danger that after thd next election, the lights will go off.
:42:29. > :42:31.We rely on importing gas from Russia, Qatar in the
:42:32. > :42:34.Middle East and because of the events in the Crimea, Syria and Iraq
:42:35. > :42:39.Therefore the government is desperate to find
:42:40. > :42:48.And for these campaigners, that is a worry.
:42:49. > :42:52.Oil and gas is inherently a risky business and hydraulic fracturing is
:42:53. > :42:58.What the protectors are doing here is about protecting the watdr,
:42:59. > :43:04.At the heart of the debate about what is really going
:43:05. > :43:09.on there is a small paragraph in the drilling companies lhcensed
:43:10. > :43:14.to operate, it has permission for something for a mini falloff test.
:43:15. > :43:17.Essentially this is a way for establishing whether
:43:18. > :43:22.the rock beneath my feet is capable of being hydraulically fractured.
:43:23. > :43:26.The company insist that test is only to gather information,
:43:27. > :43:32.We are an exploration company, explorers explore.
:43:33. > :43:36.We spent a great deal of tile, resource
:43:37. > :43:42.and thought to design these woells and take them to the depths that we
:43:43. > :43:45.think will give us the maxilum possible amount of informathon.
:43:46. > :43:48.It would be perverse in a way to walk away from part
:43:49. > :43:54.of this untested this because of some semantic terming that we use.
:43:55. > :43:58.There is no fracking here and the company says there will nevdr be.
:43:59. > :44:03.The protesters are staying put, they see this camp as the front line
:44:04. > :44:08.of a national campaign to r`ise serious questions about this
:44:09. > :44:13.Joining us now is Simon Boehngs Yorkshire and Humber campaigner
:44:14. > :44:19.Is the environmental lobby guilty of over egging
:44:20. > :44:27.What we've seen in the US where fracking has taken place is real
:44:28. > :44:33.kind of evidence of environlental problems occurring to the industry.
:44:34. > :44:35.Things like ground water contamination, peoples drinking
:44:36. > :44:41.water being contaminated with methane, benzamin and others.
:44:42. > :44:43.Really dangerous chemicals `ffecting the nervous system
:44:44. > :44:51.There is that real risk that fracking will not bring us cheaper
:44:52. > :44:54.energy bills but will bring us more problems
:44:55. > :44:57.There is no fracking currently in the UK
:44:58. > :45:03.and the sites you saw there, the company says they have no plans to
:45:04. > :45:07.frack so why are those camp`igners campaigning targeting these sites?
:45:08. > :45:12.The tests themselves bring significant environmental rhsks
:45:13. > :45:15.but the company specificallx say in their documents that thex are
:45:16. > :45:20.looking to a viability to frack at a later date.
:45:21. > :45:26.After hearing that, is fracking really worth thd risk?
:45:27. > :45:29.I am shocked by Simon's scaremongering.
:45:30. > :45:33.This whole process will go through environmental assessments,
:45:34. > :45:35.planning assessments and will be overseen at each proposal
:45:36. > :45:45.Britain has a long track record of looking at oil and gas projdcts we
:45:46. > :45:49.are one of the leading nations in the world but it is just not true to
:45:50. > :45:54.say that these proposals will not be looked at at the highest level and
:45:55. > :46:00.scrutinised to make sure thdy reach the higher levels of protection
:46:01. > :46:06.Why is labour trying to prop so many of the government's proposals in
:46:07. > :46:09.offering incentives to comp`nies on shale gas and we are told it will
:46:10. > :46:17.What we have seen in America has led to lower bills
:46:18. > :46:20.but to have a policy where xou have not dealt with the environmdntal
:46:21. > :46:24.concerns, two years ago we were calling for the government to only
:46:25. > :46:29.use chemicals, that had alrdady been proven to be safe.
:46:30. > :46:34.We had to drag them kicking and screaming on the environmental
:46:35. > :46:38.concerns because the governlents were looking at the economical side
:46:39. > :46:42.of it rather than overlay pdople's concerns and giving them confidence
:46:43. > :46:45.that they are recognising those environmental reservations. That is
:46:46. > :46:49.why you're seeing protesters around the countryside.
:46:50. > :46:51.I think it is being mishandled and potentially an important
:46:52. > :47:01.What is the alternative, we carry on paying a ridiculously
:47:02. > :47:04.high price for gas and we rdly on Putin and his regime in Russia?
:47:05. > :47:07.Let's knock this idea about cheap energy up bills
:47:08. > :47:12.All the evidence points tow`rds that the American market is completely
:47:13. > :47:18.It will not deliver that kind of scale of energy price cuts
:47:19. > :47:26.The regulation regime which are talking about,
:47:27. > :47:29.we already seeing significant weaknesses in that regime.
:47:30. > :47:36.Things falling between the cracks between the regulation authorities.
:47:37. > :47:39.Impact assessment is not behng done thoroughly enough.
:47:40. > :47:41.Conditions which are attachdd to licenses and planning
:47:42. > :47:54.Again this is presenting a false picture.
:47:55. > :47:57.This is a mixed part of a mix of measures, nuclear, more gas,
:47:58. > :47:59.fracking to actually ensure that Britain is more self`suffichent in
:48:00. > :48:03.energy and that we get lower prices for the viewers of this programme
:48:04. > :48:06.which is at the priority of this government at the moment to make
:48:07. > :48:11.The truth is that you say you want to bring energy prices down,
:48:12. > :48:15.we said nine months ago you ought to be freezing prices and autuln look
:48:16. > :48:22.You guys said we can't do that and in six months they were doing it.
:48:23. > :48:24.Surely there has to be some pressures.
:48:25. > :48:28.What is seen is with price proposals is that will lead to a distortion
:48:29. > :48:32.in prices which will lead to higher prices before and
:48:33. > :48:36.We want to trust the market and ensure there's high competition
:48:37. > :48:47.But it is interesting you c`n see it is not working for consulers
:48:48. > :48:51.Only because Ed Miliband put pressure on them.
:48:52. > :48:54.Top`down Marxist style price`fixing is not going to work.
:48:55. > :48:57.Julian, you mentioned green taxes in Europe.
:48:58. > :49:00.What is significant is the best way to provide energy is to become more
:49:01. > :49:03.energy efficient so I will be questioning why you cannot label
:49:04. > :49:05.green taxes in looking at the energy company obligation which was the
:49:06. > :49:12.only measure working and why was it cuts before Christmas
:49:13. > :49:20.As you know we are committed to renewable energy and all
:49:21. > :49:25.of the targets that are being committed to make.
:49:26. > :49:31.What are you saying high endrgy costs have to be the priority.
:49:32. > :49:35.Just briefly, if it is provdd shale gas does reduce bills
:49:36. > :49:41.and fracking is by and largd safe, Will you and your environmentalist
:49:42. > :49:47.We are a well away from insuring fracking is s`fe.
:49:48. > :49:50.The United Nations itsself has said even if you have the toughest
:49:51. > :49:54.regulatory regime in the world you will still have significant
:49:55. > :50:03.That has got to be factored into people's concern
:50:04. > :50:13.You're saying the Health and Safety Executive is dodgy,
:50:14. > :50:17.are Friends of the Earth saxing that?
:50:18. > :50:20.I'm saying there are weaknesses in the regulatory system for fracking
:50:21. > :50:27.I'm sure we'll come back to this, we have to leave this
:50:28. > :50:34.One of the lesser reported announcdments in
:50:35. > :50:38.the Queens speech was a proposal to hold direct elections for the people
:50:39. > :50:41.who run our national parks such as the Yorkshire Dales, the North
:50:42. > :50:48.So will this move better protect our cherished beauty spots or
:50:49. > :50:55.bring unnecessary politics where it is not needed?
:50:56. > :51:05.rebuild the economy after the war, when it realised it needed to ensure
:51:06. > :51:09.national assets like this wdre not lost in the scramble to moddrnise.
:51:10. > :51:12.A change in the law that ye`r and a board the creation
:51:13. > :51:15.The first, the Peak Districtin 1951.
:51:16. > :51:24.Then the North York Moors, then the Dales.
:51:25. > :51:28.Over 60 years later that is still in place.
:51:29. > :51:31.On the surface the landscape has hardly ch`nged
:51:32. > :51:34.at all, although now they h`ve over 30 million visitors every ydar.
:51:35. > :51:38.Each part is still run by its own governing authorhty made
:51:39. > :51:45.In a surprise addition to the Queens speech that could be
:51:46. > :51:51.Draft legislation will be ptblished for direct elections for a national
:51:52. > :51:58.This legislation means they'll have to put themselves up
:51:59. > :52:01.for election effectively evdry four or five years they will havd to come
:52:02. > :52:04.back to local people and say have I been doing a good
:52:05. > :52:11.If you live in an area, over a short period of time you begin to realise
:52:12. > :52:14.housing planning which would normally be made by your local
:52:15. > :52:19.councillor is made by an eldcted national park and when you see some
:52:20. > :52:24.of the decisions are dreadftl and when you see an explosion
:52:25. > :52:31.in second home ownership and no affordable homes for local people,
:52:32. > :52:34.farmers being restricted, pdople realise this is a real problem.
:52:35. > :52:37.There is a different view hdre at the North York Moors park
:52:38. > :52:42.Most of its members say it hs already elected to the local
:52:43. > :52:53.We should not be complacent in the way we have our democracy but
:52:54. > :52:56.when we did have the consultation in the North York Moors,
:52:57. > :53:01.the general public did seem happy with the current demographic system.
:53:02. > :53:05.A network of voluntary watchdog organisations made up of those
:53:06. > :53:10.who live and use the nation`l parks seem to take up a similar vhew.
:53:11. > :53:18.It is possible that by having direct elections, unless there is something
:53:19. > :53:22.which appears in writing to say you do not canvas under a polithcal
:53:23. > :53:26.banner, that is essential bdcause otherwise we introduce partx
:53:27. > :53:32.politics into national parks which is not a good thing.
:53:33. > :53:38.A veteran member of the North York Dales says that is not the hssue.
:53:39. > :53:42.Those making decisions involving their economic future
:53:43. > :53:48.For too long we had members appointed from way beyond the
:53:49. > :53:56.They have had little or no hdea of what it is like to live
:53:57. > :54:01.But of course the implication of their decision,
:54:02. > :54:04.particularly the planning c`n have huge and serious consequencds
:54:05. > :54:11.There has been little inforlation since the Queens speech
:54:12. > :54:15.for when voting schemes are planned but so far no timetable for when the
:54:16. > :54:20.ballot box will be brought hnto our national parks for the first time.
:54:21. > :54:24.Do you support direct electhons in national parks Toby?
:54:25. > :54:29.You are right to say it is not the major thing people are talking
:54:30. > :54:33.But you represent a constittency at the edge of the Peak District.
:54:34. > :54:44.I do and the Liberal Democr`ts would be going around saying we h`ve
:54:45. > :54:47.increased VAT, tripled tuithon fees and seen a rise in food bank but, we
:54:48. > :54:52.I think an important point `bout this is that similar to what was
:54:53. > :54:55.being said in your films is that the representatives of local authorities
:54:56. > :54:58.are not immediately in the local park are having a say about this.
:54:59. > :55:02.This brings in question who the parks belong to.
:55:03. > :55:05.It is a national park it is important as in Chesterfield.
:55:06. > :55:08.Lots of people, tourists, stay in Chesterfield.
:55:09. > :55:12.Even though we do not live in it we are influenced by ht
:55:13. > :55:33.I would say bring these elections on, the national parks are
:55:34. > :55:36.key parts of the area I represent and we want them to be much more
:55:37. > :55:43.We need them to be accountable to business, to young people,
:55:44. > :55:48.to older people and these elections will make this happen.
:55:49. > :55:51.Look at the police and crime commission elections, they
:55:52. > :55:55.There are elections every two years in all sorts of things.
:55:56. > :56:00.It is good for democracy, we need to stand up and be dlected.
:56:01. > :56:03.The national parks are a kex part of Britain's rural economy `nd it
:56:04. > :56:10.is great we are having some fresh air and fresh democracy unddrneath.
:56:11. > :56:13.I'm sure when this elections happen will be covering them in depth
:56:14. > :56:17.Lets get more of the weeks political news.
:56:18. > :56:28.The Chancellor and Prime Minister leaves this week bringing whth them
:56:29. > :56:38.The new high`speed rail across the Pennines.
:56:39. > :56:41.Is it a practical proposition or a political promise aimed
:56:42. > :56:46.This is a vision for the future of saying look we
:56:47. > :56:51.have strong economic cities and let's link them together.
:56:52. > :56:55.Why are many newly qualified doctors not becoming GPs, and issue debated
:56:56. > :57:03.I work long hours as a GP, why should put myself through that
:57:04. > :57:15.Should all of our junior schools become self`governing acadelies
:57:16. > :57:18.As others they work together in groups then they can cre`te
:57:19. > :57:27.the kind of scale that makes sense of being an academy.
:57:28. > :57:29.An Academy means you are responsible for more things.
:57:30. > :57:32.The local authorities take care of that for you.
:57:33. > :57:34.Toby Perkins do welcome the Chancellor's announcements for
:57:35. > :57:45.We need greater connectivitx not just up and down the countrx
:57:46. > :57:53.Interesting nine months before the election, they announce it now.
:57:54. > :57:56.HS3, when is it are going to happen, there is no date given,
:57:57. > :58:02.I spoke at this in the Commons there recently when I was supporthng HS3.
:58:03. > :58:06.We have to look at how the world is changing and need to get the
:58:07. > :58:11.We do need to bring our northern cities closer together.
:58:12. > :58:17.We need skills, communication to be easier.
:58:18. > :58:20.This idea is exactly the right thing.
:58:21. > :58:23.Why is the Department for Transport not signing it off now?
:58:24. > :58:27.?7 billion we can reap the benefits now rather than later?
:58:28. > :58:30.We have only set this up as a proposal, it is ?7 billion
:58:31. > :58:38.I and other northern MPs will be making the case that this h`s to
:58:39. > :58:45.Earlier this week we heard there was a chronic GP shortage
:58:46. > :58:56.A number of factors.
:58:57. > :58:58.The changes to GP pensions that brought in the 2000's,
:58:59. > :59:02.also there is a retention crisis in terms of recruitment.
:59:03. > :59:06.There are a lot of disaffection and demoralisation in the
:59:07. > :59:11.National Health Service bro`dly and GPs are a part of that.
:59:12. > :59:16.It is a problem in my constituency in Chestdrfield.
:59:17. > :59:21.We are told in some areas one in four GPs are vacant at the loment.
:59:22. > :59:26.It is not the case in my constituency at the moment.
:59:27. > :59:31.In this government there a more front`line staff in the NHS
:59:32. > :59:39.We have cut the number of bureaucrats and protected the NHS
:59:40. > :59:44.budget and will continue to fight to make sure the NHS is given `ll of
:59:45. > :59:50.And Labour reduced GPs hours and then paid them more?
:59:51. > :59:55.We support people in health service but the truth of what happens here
:59:56. > :59:59.is what you heard about the management cuts, what's you re
:00:00. > :00:01.seeing is managerial catastrophes all around the health service.
:00:02. > :00:08.We're not cutting the budget but waiting times are going up
:00:09. > :00:10.and waiting times the GP ard at a seven time high.
:00:11. > :00:15.Next week, our programme will be coming in life
:00:16. > :00:18.from the root of the Tour dd France, are you excited Julian Smith?
:00:19. > :00:20.I'm ecstatic, it is coming through a largd amount
:00:21. > :00:25.of my constituency and I led to an effort to get the ?10 million
:00:26. > :00:28.for the Conservative governlent funding towards the Tour de France.
:00:29. > :00:42.I'm looking for to seeing you and the whole team
:00:43. > :00:45.You had a brush with a cyclist this week did you not
:00:46. > :00:49.He was not an entrance of the Tour de France but perhaps he should be.
:00:50. > :00:51.I was knocked off my feet by cyclist.
:00:52. > :01:11.Seriously, it is fantastic news in the hope
:01:12. > :01:16.might come back at you. There have been problems elsewhere in Europe,
:01:17. > :01:17.but I take your point. Thanks to both of you today. Back to you,
:01:18. > :01:23.Andrew. Now, there have been some
:01:24. > :01:25.less-than-helpful remarks about the way the Labour party makes
:01:26. > :01:27.policy, and they've come from the man who is heading Labour's
:01:28. > :01:32.Policy Review, Jon Cruddas. In a speech to party activists he
:01:33. > :01:36.was recorded saying that, "instrumentalised, cynical nuggets
:01:37. > :01:39.of policy to chime with our focus groups and our press strategies and
:01:40. > :01:42.our desire for a topline in terms of the 24 hour media cycle,
:01:43. > :01:45.dominate and crowd out any He added that Labour's election
:01:46. > :01:55.strategy was being hampered by a The shadow chancellor, Ed Balls
:01:56. > :02:16.was asked about what Mr Cruddas had I talked to him a couple of days
:02:17. > :02:22.ago, and he's not frustrated, he is excited about his policy agenda He
:02:23. > :02:27.is frustrated that one report of 250 pages gets reduced down. So it's our
:02:28. > :02:32.fault? That is the way we live in the world in which we live, but we
:02:33. > :02:36.have big ideas about devolution long term infrastructure spending
:02:37. > :02:40.and new manufacturing policy, new investment in skills, big changes
:02:41. > :02:48.which, let's be honest, I'm really on George Osborne's agenda. How
:02:49. > :02:52.serious is this? It is Wimbledon, so let's call it an unforced error You
:02:53. > :02:56.go to the party speeches, and you don't know who is in the audience.
:02:57. > :03:00.There is no need for something as serious as this to happen. It's
:03:01. > :03:03.hugely serious because it speaks about something people have felt for
:03:04. > :03:07.a long time, that they have doled out little nuggets of policy but no
:03:08. > :03:11.overarching story. There was a quite saying the Ed Miliband has given as
:03:12. > :03:15.a shopping list, not a narrative. When people in the party say things
:03:16. > :03:20.that are true, it's very difficult for people to explain it away. Not
:03:21. > :03:23.sure Mr Miliband can win here. He was recently criticised for not
:03:24. > :03:28.having policies. Now he's being criticised for having too many. I
:03:29. > :03:30.think this line of attack is particularly wounding because he
:03:31. > :03:36.prides himself on being a politician of ideas. That is his unique selling
:03:37. > :03:41.point, and the weight that David Cameron's prime ministerial nature
:03:42. > :03:44.is his selling point. So it is wounding. If I was the Labour Party,
:03:45. > :03:50.before announcing any policy, I would ask can help fix us on the
:03:51. > :03:56.economy? It might be radicalised immolating on its own terms, but
:03:57. > :03:59.it's politically useless. -- radical and innovative on its own terms I
:04:00. > :04:03.don't think any member of the public does not think they are not radical
:04:04. > :04:06.enough or creative enough. If anything, it's the opposite. They
:04:07. > :04:10.are a bit nervous about what a Labour government could do and
:04:11. > :04:14.nervous about the economic reputation. Reassurance, caution,
:04:15. > :04:18.maybe a bit of timidity might be the notions that inform their policies
:04:19. > :04:24.or should inform their policies in night -- my view, not the opposite.
:04:25. > :04:27.I am worried for Jon Cruddas, because anyone who questions the
:04:28. > :04:31.Labour Party are part of the nexus of the banking industry who are
:04:32. > :04:34.terrified of a Labour victory. It's interesting that this goes to the
:04:35. > :04:38.heart of the debate in the Labour Party, at the highest levels, do
:04:39. > :04:42.they put a big offer to the British people, or a little off, John
:04:43. > :04:49.Cruddas offer, or Douglas Alexander offer? Ed Miliband says that his
:04:50. > :04:52.ideas about freezing energy prices and rent controls are a big offer,
:04:53. > :04:57.but his policy chief clearly has real concerns that they don't go far
:04:58. > :05:01.enough. How important a figure is John Cruddas in the project? He is
:05:02. > :05:07.hell of the -- head of the policy review and has a huge amount of
:05:08. > :05:12.power, and so him slagging off the policy review is a bad moment. He is
:05:13. > :05:15.trusted in that inner circle and the problem for Ed Miliband from the odd
:05:16. > :05:19.is that he has people with strong opinions, Maurice clasping is
:05:20. > :05:24.another, big thinkers, but they maybe don't have a precaution that a
:05:25. > :05:29.professional politician might have in terms of giving bland answers.
:05:30. > :05:32.So, David Cameron had to apologise after his former director
:05:33. > :05:33.of communications was convicted of phone hacking.
:05:34. > :05:37.David Cameron's other former friend, Rebekah Brooks, had a better day.
:05:38. > :05:43.At the same trial, she was cleared of all the charges against her.
:05:44. > :05:49.I take full responsibility for employing Andy Coulson. I did some
:05:50. > :05:52.on the basis of undertakings I was given by him about phone hacking and
:05:53. > :05:56.those turned out not to be the case. I always said that if they turned
:05:57. > :06:01.out to be wrong, I would make a full and frank apology, and I do that
:06:02. > :06:06.today. I am extremely sorry that I employed him. It was the wrong
:06:07. > :06:10.decision. I'm clear about that. When I was arrested it was in the middle
:06:11. > :06:14.of a maelstrom of controversy, politics and of comment. Some of
:06:15. > :06:24.that was there, but much of it was not, so I'm grateful to the jury for
:06:25. > :06:29.coming to that decision. Not been a great week for David Cameron. Andy
:06:30. > :06:31.Coulson found guilty, and another person who had worked in Downing
:06:32. > :06:37.Street is also charged on an unrelated issue. And he was 26- on
:06:38. > :06:40.the wrong end in Brussels, and there is a poll this morning which no one
:06:41. > :06:45.seems to be talking about which puts Labour nine points ahead. Before all
:06:46. > :06:49.that there was Dominic Cummings criticising the Downing Street
:06:50. > :06:53.operation is being shambolic. Is Mr Cameron's judgement becoming an
:06:54. > :06:56.issue? Yes, what often happens when one leader is under pressure for
:06:57. > :07:01.long enough, as Ed Miliband has been the six months, we get bored. We
:07:02. > :07:04.then switch the Gatling gun to the other guy. So David Cameron going
:07:05. > :07:07.into the Conference season might be the man under pressure. The whole
:07:08. > :07:11.Andy Coulson saga has raised questions about his judgement and
:07:12. > :07:14.those around him, but any political damage she was going to sustain over
:07:15. > :07:17.Andy Coulson and phone hacking was sustained years ago -- he was
:07:18. > :07:21.going. It was Brother beyond the date the News of the World was
:07:22. > :07:26.closed down three summers ago - it was probably on the date. As the
:07:27. > :07:32.hacking trial cut through to the general public? Or is it just as
:07:33. > :07:36.media and political obsessives? I am sure it has cut through in some way
:07:37. > :07:40.but it didn't necessarily happen in recent days, more likely in recent
:07:41. > :07:44.years. It was some time ago that Andy Coulson resigned in high
:07:45. > :07:48.profile circumstances. It has had a slow burning effect over a few
:07:49. > :07:54.years, and the Prime Minister fears the Big Bang. But there is one theme
:07:55. > :07:58.and words that unites this week with Juncker and Andy Coulson, and that
:07:59. > :08:01.is that the Prime Minister can be lackadaisical. He was lackadaisical
:08:02. > :08:04.in not asking big question is when there was a lot in the public domain
:08:05. > :08:08.about what had happened that the News of the World. And he was
:08:09. > :08:11.lackadaisical with Juncker. He made a calculation that Angela Merkel
:08:12. > :08:15.would support him and it turned out she couldn't. Maybe he needs to
:08:16. > :08:19.change. He was late in understanding what was happening in Germany when
:08:20. > :08:26.both the Christian Democrats, her party, wanted Juncker, and when the
:08:27. > :08:31.actual Murdoch press of Germany said that they wanted him as well. He
:08:32. > :08:34.never saw that. He only looks at one person in Germany, Angela Merkel,
:08:35. > :08:40.and it is a grand coalition, and the SDP felt strongly about it. He is,
:08:41. > :08:42.in a sense, an essay crisis Prime Minister. He is, in a sense, an
:08:43. > :08:48.essay crisis Prime Minister. He s very good in an essay, and the SA
:08:49. > :08:53.gets a double first the essay. Is Ed Miliband right to be angry? He has
:08:54. > :08:58.John Cruddas attacking him, and that is the news leading in the Sunday
:08:59. > :09:01.Times, and has not been a good week the Prime Minister and in which Mr
:09:02. > :09:04.Miliband has a bigger lead in the polls than he has had some time so
:09:05. > :09:08.he must be wondering why they are having a go at him. He made a
:09:09. > :09:11.tactical error in Prime Minister's Questions by asking all the
:09:12. > :09:15.questions about Andy Coulson. The one at the end about what Gus
:09:16. > :09:20.O'Donnell said was rather hopeful in the extreme. Politicians can be out
:09:21. > :09:24.of touch on all sides of the house. The problem is, and there is a great
:09:25. > :09:28.quote by William Hague, is that the Tory party has two modes, panic and
:09:29. > :09:31.complacency. At the moment they are complacent. They think Ed Miliband
:09:32. > :09:34.will lose Labour election but I don't know if they have a positive
:09:35. > :09:37.plan about how to win it. -- lose Labour the election.
:09:38. > :09:40.Now, we knew Prince Charles had trouble keeping his views
:09:41. > :09:42.about the environment and the countryside to himself,
:09:43. > :09:44.but that's not the only thing he's passionate about according to
:09:45. > :09:47.a radio four documentary to be broadcast this lunchtime.
:09:48. > :09:51.Here's former Education Secretary, David Blunkett on how the Prince
:09:52. > :09:55.had once attempted to influence his policy on schools.
:09:56. > :10:01.I would explain that our policy was not to expand grammar schools, and
:10:02. > :10:07.he didn't like that. He was very keen that we should go back to a
:10:08. > :10:11.different era where youngsters had what he would've seen as the
:10:12. > :10:12.opportunity to escape from their background, where as I wanted to
:10:13. > :10:14.change their background. And you can hear that documentary -
:10:15. > :10:24.it's called The Royal Activist Does it matter that Prince Charles
:10:25. > :10:27.is getting involved in this kind of policy, released behind closed doors
:10:28. > :10:33.question mark on the issue of grammar schools is not clear anybody
:10:34. > :10:36.listened to him. I think it is a principal problem. I've spoken to
:10:37. > :10:39.form a government members, and judging by what they say, if
:10:40. > :10:43.anything we underestimate how much contacting makes with ministers And
:10:44. > :10:49.how many representations he makes on the issue that interest him. There
:10:50. > :10:52.has been an attempt to keep it hidden. It's almost a theological
:10:53. > :10:57.question about whether the future monarch should be involved in the
:10:58. > :11:00.public realm. If he wants to influence policy, shouldn't we know
:11:01. > :11:05.what policy he's trying to influence and what position he is taking?
:11:06. > :11:11.Sewer speech is better than private one-on-one lobbying. Possibly - so
:11:12. > :11:14.a speech. Prince Charles's views are interesting. He's not a straight
:11:15. > :11:19.down the light reactionary. He makes a left-wing case for rammer schools.
:11:20. > :11:23.There is an interview with him in the Financial Times in which his
:11:24. > :11:27.argument in favour for architectural development takes into account
:11:28. > :11:30.affordable housing in the wake which no one would have suspected. He has
:11:31. > :11:34.interesting views, but I'm not convinced on the point of principle
:11:35. > :11:39.whether someone is dashing his position should be speaking. Your
:11:40. > :11:46.former employer 's famously described him as the SDP king. You
:11:47. > :11:53.slightly feel sorry for him. He s 66 and still an apprentice. He's in a
:11:54. > :11:57.difficult position. We know what the powers of the monarch are. They are
:11:58. > :12:00.to advise in courage and warned the Prime Minister of the day. These in
:12:01. > :12:03.the difficult position where the problem for him is that there is a
:12:04. > :12:07.line that isn't really defined, but you slightly feel he just gets a bit
:12:08. > :12:12.too close to it and possibly crosses that line with the lobbying that
:12:13. > :12:17.goes on. I think the worrying thing is that at some point he will become
:12:18. > :12:22.King and will he know that he has got to work within that framework?
:12:23. > :12:25.He is somebody that cannot win either. If he doesn't take an
:12:26. > :12:29.interest in public policy, he will be thought to be a bit of a waster,
:12:30. > :12:33.going round opening town halls, and when he does have an interest we
:12:34. > :12:38.think, hey, you are in the monarchy, stay out. There's an interesting
:12:39. > :12:43.parallel with first ladies who are encouraged to find a controversial
:12:44. > :12:47.charitable project. Michelle Obama has bought childhood obesity, and
:12:48. > :12:51.that is the standard thing. Everybody knows that that is a bad
:12:52. > :12:55.thing, but you are not offering solutions that are party political.
:12:56. > :12:58.I feel there must be a middle way with what he should be able to do
:12:59. > :13:02.about finding big causes he can complain about without getting stuck
:13:03. > :13:06.into lobbying ministers. Which can become a party political issue. He
:13:07. > :13:09.has had some influence on architecture, because the buildings
:13:10. > :13:11.we are putting up to date are better than the ones we used to put up
:13:12. > :13:16.The Daily Politics is on BBC 2 at 11:00am
:13:17. > :13:20.We'll be back here at the same time next week.
:13:21. > :13:25.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.