:00:36. > :00:41.Just two months to go until Scotland decides if it should stay
:00:42. > :00:44.As the campaign heads for the final furlong,
:00:45. > :00:48.what are the issues and arguments that will determine the result?
:00:49. > :00:52.The SNP's deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me live.
:00:53. > :00:55.David Cameron's scheduled a major cabinet reshuffle on Tuesday.
:00:56. > :00:58.Many of those tipped for promotion are women.
:00:59. > :01:02.So have efforts to promote diversity in public life barely started or
:01:03. > :01:11.And don't know whether to support Germany or
:01:12. > :01:26.We unearth the archive footage that political guide to the World Cup.
:01:27. > :01:37.We unearth the archive footage that rebuilds whistle`blowing MP
:01:38. > :01:40.It's World Cup final day and as usual the BBC's snagged the
:01:41. > :01:45.Yes, eat your heart out, ITV, because for top football analysis
:01:46. > :01:49.we've got Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen, and Alan Shearer.
:01:50. > :01:51.And for top political analysis you may
:01:52. > :01:55.as well tune in to them too because all we could come up with is Nick
:01:56. > :02:05.David Cameron will reshuffle his cabinet on Tuesday.
:02:06. > :02:08.The Sunday papers are full of stories telling us who'll be
:02:09. > :02:11.in and who'll be out, though they don't really know.
:02:12. > :02:13.The Mail on Sunday has one of the more eye-catching lines,
:02:14. > :02:16.reporting that former defence secretary and right-winger Liam Fox
:02:17. > :02:19.is in line for a return to the political front line.
:02:20. > :02:26.But there's general agreement that women will do well and some
:02:27. > :02:29.of the old men in suits guard will do badly.
:02:30. > :02:39.Here's senior Tory backbencher David Davis speaking to this programme.
:02:40. > :02:46.It's good to make parliament more representative.
:02:47. > :02:49.But you've got to do it in a way that doesn't create
:02:50. > :02:52.injustices, and you can't put people in a job who can't do the job.
:02:53. > :03:00.And I've seen that too over the last 20 years, people being
:03:01. > :03:02.accelerated too far too fast and they come to
:03:03. > :03:08.a screeching halt where they have to catch up with themselves.
:03:09. > :03:22.I am not going to give an example. Is this not a bit cynical? He is
:03:23. > :03:30.going to promote these women into cabinet positions, but they will not
:03:31. > :03:35.be able to do anything. I am sceptical of Cabinet reshuffle. It
:03:36. > :03:42.is an un-written pact in that the media and the government have a
:03:43. > :03:46.great interest in talking it up. The government says, haven't we
:03:47. > :03:51.refreshed ourselves? Generally it doesn't refresh the government.
:03:52. > :03:57.David Cameron wants to send out a new signal. You're going to see the
:03:58. > :04:02.old guard getting a P 45 and you will see a lot of women come in and
:04:03. > :04:09.a lot of younger men. We will find there will be a lot of resignations.
:04:10. > :04:15.A lot of, dear Prime Minister, as I told you 18 months ago, I want to
:04:16. > :04:19.move on. Because the Conservatives have this perception of not being
:04:20. > :04:24.very good with women and not being good with black and ethnic minority
:04:25. > :04:31.voters, they are going to want to do something about that. Why did he not
:04:32. > :04:36.do it before? This reshuffle might be the triumph of the a list. A lot
:04:37. > :04:41.of the women coming through the ranks have been from the a list
:04:42. > :04:46.which was a half measure because they knew they could not bring all
:04:47. > :04:51.of them in. You are going to see more women but that is a result of a
:04:52. > :04:57.long-term strategy. David Cameron is not the world's most raging
:04:58. > :05:00.feminist. He is doing this for practical reasons. He knows he has
:05:01. > :05:11.an image problem for the party and he has to solve it. He was stung by
:05:12. > :05:13.that picture of the all-male bench at Prime Minister's Questions
:05:14. > :05:19.because visibly it gave you the problem that you have been talking
:05:20. > :05:24.about. I do not think he has allowed it to be all-male since that
:05:25. > :05:27.embarrassing image. I can understand the criticism made of this approach
:05:28. > :05:33.if it was the case that all the women being promoted by talentless
:05:34. > :05:39.but you have to be very harsh to look at them and say that they would
:05:40. > :05:51.have much less to offer than the likes of Andrew Lansley. You can be
:05:52. > :05:55.pro-feminist. The tests for David Cameron is that having raised
:05:56. > :05:59.expectations he has to give them substantial jobs. They have to be
:06:00. > :06:04.given departments to run or big portfolios to carry. If they are
:06:05. > :06:09.given media campaign positions in the run-up to the election it looks
:06:10. > :06:15.perfunctorily. He is under some trouble to perhaps suggest a female
:06:16. > :06:23.commissioner to the European Union Commission. Jean-Claude Juncker has
:06:24. > :06:29.made clear that if he proposes a woman candidate they will get a
:06:30. > :06:36.better job. Saying they would like ten out of the 28 to be women. We
:06:37. > :06:42.are going to get the name of the British candidate at the same time
:06:43. > :06:48.as the reshuffle. The first face-to-face meeting, he will be
:06:49. > :06:55.able to put a name. There are other names in the frame. People like
:06:56. > :07:04.Archie Norman. That come from? His name is in the frame. There would be
:07:05. > :07:07.great scepticism of giving it to Andrew Lansley. People would think
:07:08. > :07:16.he was the man who mucked up the reform of the NHS. Who is it going
:07:17. > :07:21.to be? Either a woman or a man. I would not be surprised if they go
:07:22. > :07:28.for someone believe dynamic. Someone who would square the party. Would
:07:29. > :07:35.that not mean a by-election? It might. She is a high profile
:07:36. > :07:39.Eurosceptic. She is a very competent former banker. It would be the smart
:07:40. > :07:41.choice. I have no idea but my favourite rumour is Michael Howard.
:07:42. > :07:50.That had some legs for a while. The Mystic Megs of Fleet Street
:07:51. > :07:54.predict with confidence that the PM is going to promote more women
:07:55. > :07:55.in his cabinet reshuffle. The move can be seen as part
:07:56. > :07:59.of a move across British public life to do more to make our institutions
:08:00. > :08:02.less male and less white. But as the list
:08:03. > :08:04.of schemes to encourage diversity grows ever-longer, have we abandoned
:08:05. > :08:20.the idea of appointment by merit? Tunnelling. Hard hats, and all for
:08:21. > :08:25.new trains. It does not get more macho than the Crossrail project.
:08:26. > :08:26.When Crossrail looked at the construction industry they realise
:08:27. > :08:37.that less than 20% was made up construction industry they realise
:08:38. > :08:39.women and they asked, can we fix it? They are trying with a recruitment
:08:40. > :08:46.drive that has brought in female engineers like this woman. She even
:08:47. > :08:49.has a tunnel named after her. Having more female engineers and
:08:50. > :08:55.construction brings a bigger range of opinions, a bigger range of
:08:56. > :09:00.ideas, more diversity, into the industry, and makes it better as a
:09:01. > :09:03.whole. It is the issue being grappled in another male dominated
:09:04. > :09:07.workplace, the Cabinet. There is about to be a reach shuffle and the
:09:08. > :09:11.rumour is David Cameron is going to promote a lot of female ministers.
:09:12. > :09:17.It was a lack of promotion that annoyed Harriet Harman this week.
:09:18. > :09:18.She claimed Gordon Brown did not make her Deputy Prime Minister
:09:19. > :09:24.because she was a woman. make her Deputy Prime Minister
:09:25. > :09:32.contested election to be deputy make her Deputy Prime Minister
:09:33. > :09:35.Cabinet, to succeed to be deputy leader of the Labour Party I
:09:36. > :09:39.discovered that I was not to be appointed as Deputy Prime Minister.
:09:40. > :09:47.For women in this country, no matter how able they are, the matter how
:09:48. > :09:50.hard they might work, they are still not equal. There are initiatives to
:09:51. > :09:56.make the world feel more equal. In the City the EU wants a quarter for
:09:57. > :09:58.women in the boardroom but that goal of making 40% of the top floor
:09:59. > :10:03.female. At the BBC the boss of of making 40% of the top floor
:10:04. > :11:34.TV division says no panel show should ever be all-male.
:11:35. > :11:42.mayor of London responsible for education and culture.
:11:43. > :11:50.Cabinet wee shovel coming up punches though. Should David Cameron be
:11:51. > :11:57.promoting women? He is going to do it anyway. He should have a long
:11:58. > :12:01.time ago. It does not feel quite right that a few months before the
:12:02. > :12:06.election it would do the party a lot of good to be seen as a party
:12:07. > :12:13.properly reflective of the entire population. He should promote women
:12:14. > :12:16.because they are women? I think he should think about lots of different
:12:17. > :12:22.factors, whether the people he wants promote have proven themselves in
:12:23. > :12:25.their current reefs, whether they are good performers in the media,
:12:26. > :12:31.whether they represent different parts of the party, but the main
:12:32. > :12:36.principle is to promote on basis of merit. There are many talented women
:12:37. > :12:42.who fill that description. It should be that merit is the important thing
:12:43. > :12:43.rather than what you were born with. The thing about positive
:12:44. > :12:50.discrimination as it flies in the face of that kind of principle. You
:12:51. > :12:52.are shaking your head. We have always had positive discrimination.
:12:53. > :13:00.Men of a certain class have appointed in their own image because
:13:01. > :13:05.they feel most comfortable with that. We have had unspoken positive
:13:06. > :13:10.discrimination in this country and every other country throughout
:13:11. > :13:16.history. We are asking as women, all minorities, let us get into the same
:13:17. > :13:20.game. What do you say? You cannot solve the racism or the sexism of
:13:21. > :13:26.the past by more racism and sexism. It is not the past. There are
:13:27. > :13:31.complex reasons why a smaller number of women will appear in certain
:13:32. > :13:36.industries. It has a lot to do with childcare, education, expected. You
:13:37. > :13:41.cannot short cut that by setting a target. That is not how you achieve
:13:42. > :13:44.equality. Things are changing and more women are appearing in
:13:45. > :13:48.engineering and so on but it will take time. My worry is that these
:13:49. > :13:51.kinds of measures are counter-productive and undermine the
:13:52. > :13:52.perception that women can do it on their own merit rather
:13:53. > :13:57.counter-productive and undermine the perception that women can do it than
:13:58. > :14:01.because they need a helping hand. It is not a helping hand. It is to say,
:14:02. > :14:12.we are as good as men and these hidden barriers. Dot. Either they
:14:13. > :14:14.are not as good or they do not want it, which is just how we persuade
:14:15. > :14:19.are not as good or they do not want it, which ourselves that it is not
:14:20. > :14:25.happening, or there are barriers. How we judge meritocracy is at the
:14:26. > :14:32.heart of it. Are lots of industries won there are not that many women,
:14:33. > :14:37.such as engineering. We need more engineers generally. I think it is
:14:38. > :14:45.fine to try to encourage more women to study that subject. By setting a
:14:46. > :14:54.target you put pressure on an organisation. You tried to ignore
:14:55. > :15:16.the complex reasons why women do not go into those sectors. I think an
:15:17. > :15:22.all-female short list achieved miracle in Parliament. This is
:15:23. > :15:26.following up from having an injection of women coming up because
:15:27. > :15:33.the system was changed and a large percentage of women went into
:15:34. > :15:40.Parliament under the all-female short list were brilliant, so why
:15:41. > :15:46.not? So if the Prime Minister is mailed the Deputy Prime Minister has
:15:47. > :15:55.to be female and vice versa? Yes, absolutely, 50-50. We need to
:15:56. > :16:02.reflect the population. If we want to play this as a symbolic gesture,
:16:03. > :16:06.ideally we should have one of each. Why should a man get the job if you
:16:07. > :16:15.have a great female prime minister and a great female Deputy Prime
:16:16. > :16:23.Minister? I personally wouldn't mind this. I hear the disgruntled man and
:16:24. > :16:29.I want to come -- them to come with us. You're choosing people on the
:16:30. > :16:35.basis of traits they were born with. Are there too many Indian
:16:36. > :16:40.doctors in the NHS? I would argue not. Given that we tend to have male
:16:41. > :16:44.prime ministers rather than female ones, and we don't see another
:16:45. > :16:54.female one coming down the pipe very quickly... In the time before women
:16:55. > :16:58.short lists by the way. If you had a male prime minister with a female
:16:59. > :17:05.Deputy Prime Minister, wouldn't that give some balance? Why women? Why
:17:06. > :17:10.not working class person, which group do you prioritise? I would go
:17:11. > :17:14.with you that we need something fundamental to change. This idea
:17:15. > :17:18.that what we have now is a reflection of a genuine meritocracy
:17:19. > :17:21.is highly questionable. I would argue that when you look at the
:17:22. > :17:23.statistics things are changing. argue that when you look at the
:17:24. > :17:28.statistics things There are more women appearing in parts of public
:17:29. > :17:35.life, that is a long-term trend, but if you are trying to appoint people
:17:36. > :17:39.on what they were born with... That is not the only reason but it is an
:17:40. > :17:46.additional reason. She has to be able to do the job, obviously. I am
:17:47. > :17:49.saying the policy of hazard to discrimination explicitly state that
:17:50. > :17:54.you should choose somebody who is female because they are female. At
:17:55. > :17:59.the moment there is already enough suspicion about women who are
:18:00. > :18:04.successful to get to the senior position and if you institutionalise
:18:05. > :18:10.it you reinforce that suspicion. Harriet Harman is still complaining
:18:11. > :18:14.women are not being treated fairly. I think the policy reinforces the
:18:15. > :18:20.prejudice that women are not getting there because they are treated on
:18:21. > :18:24.the same basis. Although you may not want to have the all-female short
:18:25. > :18:29.list forever, wasn't it the kind of shock to the system that made a
:18:30. > :18:37.visible change in female representation, which the Tory side
:18:38. > :18:42.hasn't got? Of course it will work short-term but longer term it has a
:18:43. > :18:46.very degrading effect on the principle of equality and the fact
:18:47. > :18:50.Harriet Harman is saying she wasn't treated equally, whether it is true
:18:51. > :18:59.or not, the perception is still there. A number of women find this
:19:00. > :19:04.position must be reserved for a woman lying patronising, and
:19:05. > :19:12.speaking of patronising women, you spoken your Independent column, she
:19:13. > :19:17.presses all of the buttons for white people... Was that patronising and
:19:18. > :19:23.offensive? Probably. I wrote it because I felt that at the time but
:19:24. > :19:29.the point is that I was a token when I was appointed. The paper brought
:19:30. > :19:34.me in because I was a woman and I was a muslin or whatever. You are
:19:35. > :19:48.not writing about yourself. I was writing... It doesn't mean you don't
:19:49. > :19:56.criticise other women. We absolutely have to be tough, Manira is tough
:19:57. > :20:01.and so am I. Do you want to take back what you wrote? No. Do you
:20:02. > :20:09.really think positive discrimination has gone too far? I think there is
:20:10. > :20:14.already a suspicion out there that in certain sectors women are being
:20:15. > :20:18.promoted for the wrong reasons or ethnic minorities are being promoted
:20:19. > :20:23.for the wrong reasons. That is a shame and my worry is that by tying
:20:24. > :20:28.funding to your ethnicity or your gender, by saying you will get a
:20:29. > :20:33.promotion if you check that box, but you feel that resentment and
:20:34. > :20:43.prejudice and undermine the case for inequality. I wanted to be treated
:20:44. > :20:49.equally, because I am capable of doing that job. Only two months to
:20:50. > :20:58.go before Scotland takes its biggest constitutional decision in 300 years
:20:59. > :21:03.- should it quit or stay with the UK? For some in Scotland campaign
:21:04. > :21:09.has been going on forever. What has been the impact on the campaign to
:21:10. > :21:13.date? Alex Salmond says Scotland would
:21:14. > :21:18.remain part of the European Union with sterling as its currency in a
:21:19. > :21:23.monetary union with the rest of the UK, but he has also promised more
:21:24. > :21:29.public spending, increased child care provision and free personal
:21:30. > :21:36.care for the elderly. The SNP claims it would leave people better off by
:21:37. > :21:43.?1000 though that partly depends on the price of oil. With the Better
:21:44. > :21:48.Together arguing against independence, it has naturally been
:21:49. > :21:55.attacking the SNP on all fronts. George Osborne says there will be no
:21:56. > :22:00.monetary union. President Barroso told the BBC it would be extremely
:22:01. > :22:11.difficult for Scotland to join the EU after a yes vote. His successor
:22:12. > :22:20.this week said he agreed. Unions claim Scotland benefit by ?1400 by
:22:21. > :22:27.being part of the UK. A poll this morning shows a significant lead of
:22:28. > :22:33.57% for the no campaign, leaving the SNP to claim it will go their way in
:22:34. > :22:38.the last ten weeks. Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy First Minister of
:22:39. > :22:44.Scotland, joins me now. You want an independent Scotland to keep the
:22:45. > :22:48.pound, stay in NATO, stay in the EU, Scotland already has all of that
:22:49. > :22:55.but you cannot guarantee it would have any of it in an independent
:22:56. > :23:00.Scotland, why take the risk? All of these things should be the case
:23:01. > :23:05.because they are in the best interests of Scotland and the rest
:23:06. > :23:11.of the UK but we want the powers to enable us to grow our economy
:23:12. > :23:16.faster, to be productive, and overtime increased the prosperity of
:23:17. > :23:20.people living in Scotland. We also want powers over our social security
:23:21. > :23:27.system so that we can create a system that meets our needs, one
:23:28. > :23:31.that also has a safety net for the most vulnerable people in our
:23:32. > :23:38.society. Independence is about letting us decide our own
:23:39. > :23:41.priorities. You didn't answer my question, you cannot guarantee you
:23:42. > :23:47.would be able to keep the pound within a monetary union, stay in
:23:48. > :23:52.NATO and the EU, you cannot guarantee you could produce any of
:23:53. > :23:57.these things, correct? I would argue that we can because these things are
:23:58. > :24:03.also in the interest of the rest of the UK. No country can be prevented
:24:04. > :24:07.from using the pound, I suggest we use that within a formal monetary
:24:08. > :24:12.union. We have had the UK minister quoted in the Guardian saying the
:24:13. > :24:16.position of the UK Government right now is one based on campaign
:24:17. > :24:23.rhetoric and following a yes vote, of course there would be a currency
:24:24. > :24:28.union. Who is that minister? The Minister is unnamed, but
:24:29. > :24:34.nevertheless that story in the Guardian was a solid one and not
:24:35. > :24:39.substantially denied. So you are basing your monetary policy on one
:24:40. > :24:49.on named minister in one story? Basing it on Common sense because
:24:50. > :24:52.monetary union would be in the best interests for Scotland but also
:24:53. > :24:57.overwhelmingly in the interests of the rest of the UK, given their
:24:58. > :25:05.trading relationship with Scotland and the contribution Scotland's
:25:06. > :25:11.exports make. We are having a very good debate and the UK Government
:25:12. > :25:20.and the no campaign, and this is not a criticism, want to talk up in --
:25:21. > :25:25.uncertainty to make people feel scared, but after independence there
:25:26. > :25:29.will be constructed process of negotiation. Let's stick with the
:25:30. > :25:32.monetary union because most economists agree it would be very
:25:33. > :25:37.good for an independent Scotland to have a monetary union but George
:25:38. > :25:42.Osborne, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander are unequivocal, they say you won't
:25:43. > :25:49.get it. You claim they are bluffing but again you cannot guarantee that
:25:50. > :25:52.so why the risk? I would say the benefits of independence are
:25:53. > :25:56.substantial but I would also say to George Osborne and his counterparts
:25:57. > :26:01.in the other parties that it would be a very brave Chancellor that says
:26:02. > :26:05.to businesses in the rest of the UK that they have to incur unnecessary
:26:06. > :26:08.additional transaction costs of half a very brave Chancellor that says to
:26:09. > :26:12.businesses in the rest of the UK that they have to incur unnecessary
:26:13. > :26:17.additional transaction costs of half. What we are doing is making a
:26:18. > :26:21.case that is based on common sense and voters in Scotland will listen
:26:22. > :26:27.to that case being put forward by the other side as well, and they
:26:28. > :26:34.will come to a judgement of the common-sense position. Let's look at
:26:35. > :26:43.EU membership because you haven't been able to guarantee the monetary
:26:44. > :26:47.union. When President Barroso said that a seamless transition to EU
:26:48. > :26:52.membership for an independent Scotland was anything but certain,
:26:53. > :26:59.and one said it could even be impossible, you dismissed him
:27:00. > :27:08.because he was standing down, but been -- venue EU president says the
:27:09. > :27:12.same, do you dismissed him? What we are doing... I should say at the
:27:13. > :27:16.outset of this, we have said repeatedly to the UK Government,
:27:17. > :27:21.let's go jointly and ask for a formal opinion on the EU
:27:22. > :27:27.commission. The EU commission have said they will only do that at this
:27:28. > :27:34.stage if the UK Government ask for it, they are point blank refusing to
:27:35. > :27:39.do that, you have to ask why? It is in their interests to talk up
:27:40. > :27:44.uncertainty. Scotland is an integral part of the European Union, we have
:27:45. > :27:50.been for 40 years, we comply with the rules and regulations... Mr
:27:51. > :27:56.Juncker knows all of that but he still says it will be anything but a
:27:57. > :28:01.seamless transition. He said you could not join the European Union by
:28:02. > :28:15.sending a letter, that is not our proposal. We set down a robust
:28:16. > :28:19.proposal and the timescale we think is reasonable under these
:28:20. > :28:25.circumstances. There are many nationals of other states living in
:28:26. > :28:28.Scotland right now, if we were to be outside of the European Union for
:28:29. > :28:33.any period of time, something the current treaty doesn't even provide
:28:34. > :28:37.for, they would lose their right to stay here. The interests of Scotland
:28:38. > :28:42.and the interests of European Union are in favour of a seamless
:28:43. > :28:44.transition. It comes down to common sense and people in Scotland will
:28:45. > :28:47.make sense and people in Scotland will
:28:48. > :28:53.their own judgement on who is talking the common-sense. What about
:28:54. > :28:59.NATO, two years ago you told Newsnight the SNP's position is that
:29:00. > :29:04.we wouldn't stay in NATO. We had a democratic debate, we looked at
:29:05. > :29:07.whether it would be in the interests of an independent Scotland, which
:29:08. > :29:17.forms a significant part of the territory of the North Atlantic and
:29:18. > :29:25.the party changed its mind. It did so in a thoroughly democratic way.
:29:26. > :29:27.That is the nature of democracy. Would you accept the protection of
:29:28. > :30:08.the NATO nuclear umbrella? There is Would you accept the protection of
:30:09. > :30:14.nuclear umbrella. The key feature of NATO's military dog train is now
:30:15. > :30:17.clear shrike. We would accept the basis of which NATO is founded but
:30:18. > :31:39.we would argue two things. We want basis of which NATO is founded but
:31:40. > :31:43.example our moral authority and encouraging others to do likewise
:31:44. > :31:48.would be increased. Money and oil, the finance minister has said that
:31:49. > :31:51.an independent Scotland would increase public spending by 3% a
:31:52. > :31:56.year. He would pay for that by borrowing. Your First Minister says
:31:57. > :32:02.he is going to stash money in an oil fund. You're going to borrow and
:32:03. > :32:10.save. How does that work? There are two points. Firstly in terms of the
:32:11. > :32:14.outlook for finances and what is one of the central debates of this
:32:15. > :32:18.referendum campaign, austerity that we know will continue if we stay as
:32:19. > :32:23.part of the Westminster system versus prosperity. The economy can
:32:24. > :32:27.afford a higher level of increase in public spending while we continue to
:32:28. > :32:33.have deficit levels at a sustainable level. What is the point of
:32:34. > :32:38.borrowing and saving at the same time? People who have a mortgage and
:32:39. > :32:45.the savings account would not themselves what the wisdom of that
:32:46. > :32:47.is. This is based on recommendations of our expert fiscal Commission that
:32:48. > :32:53.as borrowing reduces to sustainable levels it makes sense to start
:32:54. > :33:00.saving a proportion of our oil wealth. In Norway, which has many
:33:01. > :33:05.similarities to Scotland, they have an oil fund worth ?500 billion.
:33:06. > :33:10.Scotland is part of the Westminster system is sitting on a share of UK
:33:11. > :33:16.debt. We can continue to allow our oil wealth, our vast oil wealth, to
:33:17. > :33:20.be mismanaged or we can decide we are going to manage that resource
:33:21. > :33:27.better in the years to come. Your figures do not add up unless you are
:33:28. > :33:30.about oil prices and revenue and you have been consistently wrong in your
:33:31. > :33:38.predictions. Last year you forecast that revenues would be the .7
:33:39. > :33:45.billion more than they actually work -- 3.7 billion. The cost of the
:33:46. > :33:49.Scottish school system gone. There were particular reasons for that in
:33:50. > :33:53.terms of interruption to production and bigger levels of investment.
:33:54. > :34:00.Used ill have to find the money. Let me explain. They are based on robust
:34:01. > :34:03.assumptions, firstly a production estimates that is in line with the
:34:04. > :34:07.estimates of the oil and gas industry. Use of figures that are
:34:08. > :34:15.based on production of 10 billion barrels of oil. Oil and gas has been
:34:16. > :34:21.wrong as well. It is 24 billion left to be recovered. That is what is in
:34:22. > :34:27.the UK Government's oil and gas strategy so production in line with
:34:28. > :34:30.industry estimates and an oil price of $110 per barrel which is flat in
:34:31. > :34:38.cash terms would be a real terms reduction. The Department of energy
:34:39. > :34:42.is estimating $128 per barrel so our estimate compared to that is
:34:43. > :34:49.cautious. These are robust estimates based on robust assumptions. Except
:34:50. > :34:55.they have been wrong. Finally, we hear a lot from you and your fellow
:34:56. > :34:59.nationalists, you want a Scandinavian style social democracy,
:35:00. > :35:03.you know how to spend the money but you never tell us about social
:35:04. > :35:07.democratic levels of taxation. Also should grizzlies have higher levels
:35:08. > :35:14.of tax in Scotland does at the moment -- all social grizzlies. I
:35:15. > :35:20.want a Scottish style of social democracy. Free education, free
:35:21. > :35:26.medicines and balancing the books every single year. We want to get
:35:27. > :35:30.more people into work in Scotland, raise the level of distribution in
:35:31. > :35:32.the Labour market and make the economy more productive so we are
:35:33. > :35:38.raising the overall tax revenue. Over the last 33 years we have
:35:39. > :35:46.generated more taxpayer head of population than is the case and the
:35:47. > :35:50.rest of the UK. Those last 33 years, some of those years oil prices would
:35:51. > :35:54.have been high and in others they would have been law but we take
:35:55. > :35:58.different decisions. A report showed that if we go as part of the
:35:59. > :36:06.Westminster system down the plate -- route of replacing Trident then the
:36:07. > :36:11.cost will be as high as ?4 billion every year. Our share of that is the
:36:12. > :36:15.hundred million pounds a year. Let us get access to our own resources
:36:16. > :36:19.so we can make different and better decisions about how to spend the
:36:20. > :36:24.resources we have. You are promising Scandinavian style social democratic
:36:25. > :36:29.levels of public spending but you say you will not need a top rate of
:36:30. > :36:38.tax of 56% which is what Scandinavia has, that all 25%, which is what
:36:39. > :36:42.Scandinavia has and VAT of 15%. You are going to have the spending but
:36:43. > :36:48.none of the taxes that make it possible in Scandinavia. For
:36:49. > :36:54.mischievous reasons you are met -- misrepresenting what I am saying.
:36:55. > :36:58.The Scottish economy can afford it and we want to generate more wealth
:36:59. > :37:03.in our economy. We want to use the existing resources Scotland has. We
:37:04. > :37:08.are the 14th richest country in the world in terms of what we produce.
:37:09. > :37:12.We do not want to be wasting resources. We want to be spending
:37:13. > :37:16.resources on the things that other priority for the people of Scotland.
:37:17. > :37:20.These are the benefits and the opportunities really get if we take
:37:21. > :37:32.the opportunity of voting yes and becoming independent.
:37:33. > :37:42.Hello, you are watching the Sunday Politics
:37:43. > :37:47.Coming up today, we unearth the archive footage which reveals
:37:48. > :37:50.that whistle`blowing MP Geoffrey Dickens tried to uncover child
:37:51. > :37:57.And why there is anger from some at the increasing use
:37:58. > :38:05.of police stop and search powers on the streets of Yorkshire's cities.
:38:06. > :38:09.Our guests today are Julian Sturdy, the Conservative MP for York Outer,
:38:10. > :38:12.and Diana Johnson, Labour MP for Hull North.
:38:13. > :38:16.It has been a busy week in the world of politics.
:38:17. > :38:18.What has caught your eye, Diana Johnson?
:38:19. > :38:21.Well, unfortunately, it was a misrepresentation of my home city of
:38:22. > :38:25.Hull this week on Benefits Britain on Channel 5, where they portrayed
:38:26. > :38:29.the city in a very negative way about people on benefits.
:38:30. > :38:32.They did not make any mention of the fact that we have major investment
:38:33. > :38:36.coming in from Siemens or that we have got the City of Culture.
:38:37. > :38:38.I think they mentioned that for just five seconds.
:38:39. > :38:41.It was a really distorted piece of shoddy journalism and I am
:38:42. > :38:45.hoping the BBC might be able to help us to actually correct that view
:38:46. > :38:49.Standards are always higher at Auntie Beeb, Diana, you know that.
:38:50. > :38:52.Julian, what has caught your eye this week?
:38:53. > :38:55.Well, for me Tim, it has to be the Tour de France.
:38:56. > :38:58.As a York MP, I think it surpassed all expectations in Yorkshire.
:38:59. > :39:00.It was an amazing event and I think a lot
:39:01. > :39:04.of credit has to go to Gary Verity at Welcome to Yorkshire for the
:39:05. > :39:07.fantastic job they did in bringing the Tour to our great county.
:39:08. > :39:10.The fans were amazing, the weather was fantastic.
:39:11. > :39:14.All in all, it showed Yorkshire in its true glory.
:39:15. > :39:19.I got saddle sore just watching them go round Buttertubs Pass and
:39:20. > :39:24.On to serious matters now, and despite passing away almost 20
:39:25. > :39:28.years ago, a former Yorkshire MP has been making national headlines.
:39:29. > :39:31.Geoffrey Dickens, who represented Huddersfield West
:39:32. > :39:35.in parliament, claimed to have evidence of a high profile network
:39:36. > :39:38.of paedophiles operating at the heart of Westminster.
:39:39. > :39:42.Sean Stowell has been looking into the archives to find out more
:39:43. > :39:52.The Reverend Jan Knos was found dead in his cell at Hull
:39:53. > :39:56.The top story on BBC Look North one evening in 1986.
:39:57. > :40:01.He was on remand facing 28 charges of sexual offences against children.
:40:02. > :40:04.Geoffrey Dickens had accused the Church of England
:40:05. > :40:09.of failing to take action over a vicar abusing children in Hull.
:40:10. > :40:12.The local social workers, the police, the school childwatch
:40:13. > :40:15.organisation, all these people knew what was going on, particularly
:40:16. > :40:18.the parents and the poor little children, and yet somehow the Church
:40:19. > :40:23.Well, he does not understand the constraints in
:40:24. > :40:28.You don't think it's grounds for resignation or apology now,
:40:29. > :40:36.The shadow of former Huddersfield West MP, Geoffrey Dickens, who died
:40:37. > :40:42.in 1995, is extending deep into the heart of the Westminster village.
:40:43. > :40:45.Rarely in its history has the gossip in the corridors been
:40:46. > :40:51.For it was back in 1983 that Dickens claimed there was a paedophile
:40:52. > :40:57.network in and around Westminster involving, in his words, big names,
:40:58. > :41:03.people in positions of power, influence and responsibility.
:41:04. > :41:08.Dickens gave the then Home Secretary, Leon Brittan, who at the
:41:09. > :41:11.time was MP for Richmond in North Yorkshire, a dossier containing
:41:12. > :41:16.Lord Brittan said last year he had no recollection of the document.
:41:17. > :41:19.But last week he said he had been handed a substantial bundle
:41:20. > :41:24.A Home Office review last year concluded
:41:25. > :41:30.Bassetlaw MP John Mann, meanwhile, says copies were, in fact,
:41:31. > :41:38.There were multiple copes made and distributed beyond the
:41:39. > :41:42.Home Office and, therefore, looking just for a file in the Home
:41:43. > :41:49.This file was sent elsewhere, to other government departments,
:41:50. > :41:54.and the reason people are not coming forward, I believe, is that
:41:55. > :41:58.everyone who saw it was required to sign the Official Secrets Act.
:41:59. > :42:05.They need the gagging clause relating to this document removing.
:42:06. > :42:09.It was Geoffrey Dickens' belief that those in authority were repeatedly
:42:10. > :42:16.and knowing exposing children to horrific and deeply damaging abuse.
:42:17. > :42:20.It is all part of a national campaign to stop child abuse.
:42:21. > :42:23.The government can be in no doubt that what he initiated back
:42:24. > :42:30.in the 1980s will prompt many more questions and enquiries to come.
:42:31. > :42:33.Julian Sturdy, many people reading the papers this weekend will still
:42:34. > :42:36.be under the assumption, won't they, that there was this huge cover up
:42:37. > :42:43.The protection of children has to be one of our highest priorities
:42:44. > :42:45.and these are really serious allegations out there.
:42:46. > :42:50.No excuses any more, we have to get to the bottom of it.
:42:51. > :42:54.I am actually quite pleased that it is going to come in front of the
:42:55. > :42:59.Keith Vaz has come out and said that the Home Secretary is going to be up
:43:00. > :43:02.in front of the Select Committee on Monday and I think that is going
:43:03. > :43:06.Diana Johnson, do you have faith in the inquiry that was announced
:43:07. > :43:09.Well, of course, there are two inquiries.
:43:10. > :43:11.There is one into exactly what has happened in
:43:12. > :43:14.the Home Office and these 114 files that seem to have gone missing.
:43:15. > :43:17.I am pleased they are going to have that inquiry.
:43:18. > :43:21.Then, there is this broader inquiry into historic child abuse.
:43:22. > :43:24.I am pleased that we are now finally getting somewhere because
:43:25. > :43:28.Yvette Cooper has been calling for a wide ranging inquiry.
:43:29. > :43:31.About 18 months ago she first called for this, so I am pleased
:43:32. > :43:36.I am very keen to see the terms of reference for this wider inquiry
:43:37. > :43:40.and also to make sure that we have child protection experts on
:43:41. > :43:47.Julian Sturdy, John Mann, who some would say is a modern day
:43:48. > :43:51.maverick MP, wants the Official Secrets Act lifted for those who
:43:52. > :43:58.I think that is going to have to come out.
:43:59. > :44:01.I do think we have to get to the bottom of this.
:44:02. > :44:05.I don't think we can hide behind the Official Secrets Act on this.
:44:06. > :44:09.It is potentially too serious a thing to be brushed under
:44:10. > :44:17.That is why, as I say, the inquiries are really important, but the Select
:44:18. > :44:20.Committee, next week, is going to be the starting point for that.
:44:21. > :44:22.We have got to get public confidence back on this.
:44:23. > :44:24.Diana Johnson, are people at Westminster openly speculating
:44:25. > :44:30.about the names, the alleged names in the Dickens dossier?
:44:31. > :44:34.Well, yes, there is a little bit of that,
:44:35. > :44:38.but I think most MPs are actually shocked, who have heard about these
:44:39. > :44:41.allegations and the potential that there might have been a cover up.
:44:42. > :44:45.I think MPs are really rather taken aback by this and that is
:44:46. > :44:49.why we are very pleased that there is going to be this full inquiry.
:44:50. > :44:51.And, particularly, this inquiry about what the
:44:52. > :44:55.Home Office did or didn't do and the broader Whitehall departments
:44:56. > :45:01.We need to get to the bottom of what has happened there.
:45:02. > :45:02.Whether these files have been destroyed or misplaced.
:45:03. > :45:07.Let's move on now, because the use of police stop and search powers
:45:08. > :45:13.Senior offices argue they are a vital tool in the fight
:45:14. > :45:17.But some are questioning why, if you are young and
:45:18. > :45:20.if you are black, you are still far more likely to be stopped
:45:21. > :45:33.Everyone has a story about stop and search
:45:34. > :45:39.I am just a citizen who is walking past and just been stopped
:45:40. > :45:50.You know that people are looking at you.
:45:51. > :45:52.If I can see at least one or two white people
:45:53. > :45:55.being stopped as well, and then they stop me, then I'll understand.
:45:56. > :45:58.But if I just see myself, I really get annoyed and angry.
:45:59. > :46:01.So why do you think they are stopping you in particular?
:46:02. > :46:03.It could be they don't trust a black person.
:46:04. > :46:06.If you are black you are six times more likely to be stopped
:46:07. > :46:16.I was listening to my music and they stopped me, and
:46:17. > :46:19.the way that they started, it was like I had done something wrong.
:46:20. > :46:24.Asking me what did I have in my bag, where did I work.
:46:25. > :46:30.You can see people passing, going up and down, looking at you.
:46:31. > :46:34.You feel like you have done something.
:46:35. > :46:38.They make you feel like a drug dealer or something like that.
:46:39. > :46:42.They just stopped me and they were, like, we are going to have to take
:46:43. > :46:44.I asked, why would you take a picture of me?
:46:45. > :46:49.There were four of them and they had to grab me, put me against
:46:50. > :46:57.I don't think that is the right way to deal with any civilian.
:46:58. > :47:00.The Brixton riots, 1981, and this power was brought to
:47:01. > :47:06.Officers could use stop and search if they merely suspected a crime.
:47:07. > :47:15.Police would need reasonable suspicion before acting.
:47:16. > :47:20.Some of these people get stopped on a regular basis.
:47:21. > :47:22.Just through who the family connection might be.
:47:23. > :47:25.Or because of historical thoughts about the family connections.
:47:26. > :47:29.Sometimes it is just about the dress codes.
:47:30. > :47:31.Police use the stop and search powers, at times,
:47:32. > :47:35.as a form of abuse because that control element, to know they can at
:47:36. > :47:38.any time, makes young people feel vulnerable and susceptible to always
:47:39. > :47:43.On 15`year`old I spoke to said he had been stopped
:47:44. > :47:47.and searched eight times in the past 18 months but has never
:47:48. > :47:54.The government now says the system must change.
:47:55. > :47:58.I want to make myself absolutely clear.
:47:59. > :48:02.If the numbers do not come down, if stop and search does not become
:48:03. > :48:06.more targeted, if those stopped to arrest ratios do not improve
:48:07. > :48:08.considerably, the government will return with primary legislation to
:48:09. > :48:13.Across Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire the number
:48:14. > :48:18.of stop and searches in increasing, from 69,000 to nearly 82,000.
:48:19. > :48:22.That is a 15% rise, bucking the national trend.
:48:23. > :48:26.Amongst those forces, West Yorkshire is the most diverse.
:48:27. > :48:51.No one was available for interview but they issued this statement.
:48:52. > :48:54.West Yorkshire's Police and Crime Commissioner, Mark Burns`Williamson,
:48:55. > :49:02.He admits there are issues and says changes will be made.
:49:03. > :49:05.I am aware of the disproportionality issue.
:49:06. > :49:09.Where stop and search is misapplied it is clearly a waste
:49:10. > :49:13.of the public's time and, in fact, the police's time as well.
:49:14. > :49:18.We need to make sure that our officers are trained up to
:49:19. > :49:21.the right standards, that if someone is stopped there is a clear
:49:22. > :49:27.To help explain why, a new scheme is being launched
:49:28. > :49:32.It involves the immediate electronic recording
:49:33. > :49:36.of the reasons for stop and search, the use of bodycams on police and,
:49:37. > :49:40.when there is a large number of complaints, officers must explain
:49:41. > :50:40.It's a matter of a time bomb because there are times when young
:50:41. > :51:50.They talk about a lot of pilot schemes.
:51:51. > :51:55.if a pilot can't fly, he crashes in an area and he always
:51:56. > :51:59.Julian Sturdy, do you accept those concerns?
:52:00. > :52:01.We are told amongst Yorkshire police forces, the number of stop
:52:02. > :52:05.and search operations has gone up by 15% when it is has gone down
:52:06. > :52:11.Yes, I think when you are talking about stop and search you have got
:52:12. > :52:14.If police forces are saying they need stop
:52:15. > :52:17.and search in certain areas, for stop and search to actually
:52:18. > :52:21.work properly, you have got to have the trust of that local community.
:52:22. > :52:25.In how the police are operating it and how they are using it.
:52:26. > :52:28.Obviously, what we are just hearing means that that is not happening
:52:29. > :52:32.So there obviously is an issue that we have to address here.
:52:33. > :52:34.The Home Secretary has come out and said, quite rightly,
:52:35. > :52:39.that she wants to see the number of stop and searches fall and also
:52:40. > :52:43.very much talking about how that can be better monitored to make sure it
:52:44. > :52:47.Diana Johnson, Theresa May the Home Secretary has
:52:48. > :52:51.said she wants to reform the way stop and search powers are used.
:52:52. > :52:56.Would you support the government's legislation?
:52:57. > :52:58.Well, of course, what she's said so far is she wants
:52:59. > :53:02.to have some voluntary schemes introduced for dealing with this.
:53:03. > :53:06.What Yvette Cooper was calling for in that statement you played
:53:07. > :53:10.a little bit of with Theresa May was actually to say we need to take
:53:11. > :53:15.We need to stop this racial profiling and we need to make sure
:53:16. > :53:19.that any targets around stop and search are removed as well.
:53:20. > :53:22.But I also just wanted to say that the key thing in all of this, for
:53:23. > :53:29.As I understand it, only 10% of these stop and searches results
:53:30. > :53:33.in an arrest so it seems to me there is a real issue there about police
:53:34. > :53:38.Lutel, Chapeltown in Leeds, whichever way you look at it,
:53:39. > :53:43.And, actually, young black people are more likely, statistically,
:53:44. > :53:48.Do you not think there is an argument for stop and search
:53:49. > :53:53.We are talking about a 30`year cycle of criminality, where
:53:54. > :53:56.institutionally and systematically a lot of young, black people
:53:57. > :54:04.What we are saying is stop using stop and search as a tool to destroy
:54:05. > :54:08.the opportunities of young, black males within the area.
:54:09. > :54:12.This has been going on for a number of years but we keep hearing the old
:54:13. > :54:20.Give them opportunities to breathe and opportunities to move forward
:54:21. > :54:23.I wouldn't say that is where the right things are,
:54:24. > :54:32.What would you say to elderly people who might live in your area who are
:54:33. > :54:35.genuinely frightened to walk the streets because they could
:54:36. > :54:41.It is a view that people are frightened
:54:42. > :54:46.There is a lot of people in our community who don't feel like that.
:54:47. > :54:48.What happens is, if you give young people
:54:49. > :54:51.an opportunity to move forward in life, you will start seeing the
:54:52. > :54:56.What they haven't done, they've been suppressed over
:54:57. > :54:59.a number of year where they haven't had any real opportunities because
:55:00. > :55:01.taht stereotype model of Chapeltown, as an area, has perceived itself
:55:02. > :55:07.Julian Sturdy, do you think there is still a place for stop and search
:55:08. > :55:11.Yes, I think they have to be used properly, as I say.
:55:12. > :55:13.That is what the Home Secretary is talking about.
:55:14. > :55:16.And actually, what Diana said, the Home Secretary has been very clear,
:55:17. > :55:20.But, actually, if that doesn't work and they don't
:55:21. > :55:23.fall then she has said she will legislate, and rightly so.
:55:24. > :55:26.But, I would just say one point here, that we've got to
:55:27. > :55:29.be careful over how different police authorities us it.
:55:30. > :55:33.We are talking about, potentially, more bureaucracy coming in
:55:34. > :55:37.for certain police authorities with these new changes.
:55:38. > :55:41.And for areas like my patch in North Yorkshire, where we don't see very
:55:42. > :55:45.much stop and search, then that will mean less police on the street.
:55:46. > :55:47.Ultimately, that is what we want, to reassure people,
:55:48. > :55:51.Diana Johnson, the proposed changes include things
:55:52. > :55:58.like electronic readings, more body cameras in use to record stop
:55:59. > :56:01.and searches when they happen, and a more robust complaints procedure.
:56:02. > :56:05.Isn't that more red tape for police officers who say they are
:56:06. > :56:11.No, I think we do have to accept that those measures are welcome.
:56:12. > :56:14.That's good, but I do think the Home Secretary could more.
:56:15. > :56:17.And I have to say to Julian, we are not exactly overworked in
:56:18. > :56:22.We haven't got that many Bills that are coming forward
:56:23. > :56:28.It seems to me there is ample time for parliament to look at this issue
:56:29. > :56:31.and legislate and actually make sure that this is dealt with properly,
:56:32. > :56:34.We have know about these problems for years.
:56:35. > :56:38.This has been around for some time and we need to get a grip of it.
:56:39. > :56:42.Briefly, do you have faith in the government
:56:43. > :56:46.I have faith in the government to fight the right balance.
:56:47. > :56:49.I don't have faith in anybody to find the right balance
:56:50. > :56:51.as I think, systematically, some areas, what they get is what
:56:52. > :57:00.Let's get some more of the week's political news now.
:57:01. > :57:09.James Vincent has our round`up in 60 Seconds.
:57:10. > :57:11.A strike by six trade unions disrupted services
:57:12. > :57:16.Teachers, fire fighters and council staff walked out.
:57:17. > :57:19.Unions day there members are angry because they have had to accept
:57:20. > :57:24.The transfer of Trans`Pennine trains to the Chilterns has been branded
:57:25. > :57:29.The trains currently used between Manchester and Hull will move from
:57:30. > :57:37.The current train operator has no contractual rights to the trains.
:57:38. > :57:40.On a visit to Hull, the Shadow Minister for Policing, Jack
:57:41. > :57:44.Dromey, said Labour would look again at the creation of police and crime
:57:45. > :57:48.commissioners if the party got into power at the next general election.
:57:49. > :57:50.There is an experiment that has failed.
:57:51. > :57:53.Therefore, we are looking at a range of alternatives for the future.
:57:54. > :57:56.It has been revealed that the United Lincolnshire Hospitals Trust
:57:57. > :57:59.has not improved enough to be taken out of special measures.
:58:00. > :58:03.An action plan will now be drawn up by the Care Quality Commission
:58:04. > :58:10.and the hospital to help improve its performance.
:58:11. > :58:14.So, Julian Sturdy, who won the propaganda war following
:58:15. > :58:20.Well, I would argue that the government won.
:58:21. > :58:24.The government has had to make some very difficult decisions over
:58:25. > :58:27.the last four years and public sector pay has been restrained.
:58:28. > :58:30.That is because of the mess we inherited from the
:58:31. > :58:33.previous government and the great recession we have gone through.
:58:34. > :58:36.There have been some very difficult decision we have had to take,
:58:37. > :58:40.They have been difficult decisions but, ultimately, for
:58:41. > :58:43.the long term future of the economy and job security I think they were
:58:44. > :58:47.Diana Johnson, do you think we need new legislation
:58:48. > :58:51.to ensure that strikes can't go ahead unless more union members take
:58:52. > :58:59.I mean, in some cases 20% of union members took part in the ballot.
:59:00. > :59:03.That's only a fraction of those union card`carrying members
:59:04. > :59:08.I made the point in the House of Commons this week that the
:59:09. > :59:11.turnout for the Police and Crime Commissioner elections in November
:59:12. > :59:17.2012 were actually 15.9% and that was a flagship Conservative policy.
:59:18. > :59:21.I ask the Minister whether he was saying that the PCCs
:59:22. > :59:24.who were elected on that basis were no longer legitimate.
:59:25. > :59:28.I think that is not an argument that the government really ought to put
:59:29. > :59:33.forward because these are properly, legally`called strikes.
:59:34. > :59:35.This was legislation introduced by a Tory government about the way
:59:36. > :59:41.Just listening to what Julian said about hard decisions having to be
:59:42. > :59:44.taken, well I am sure deciding to give a tax cut to millionaires when
:59:45. > :59:48.you are leaving some of our lowest paid workers in the public sector at
:59:49. > :59:53.risk of being paid below the minimum wage, I think there is little those
:59:54. > :59:58.public sector workers would take comfort from what Julian is saying.
:59:59. > :00:04.As I say, the government had to make these difficult decisions
:00:05. > :00:06.because we inherited such a mess from the previous government.
:00:07. > :00:08.It was one of the greatest recessions this
:00:09. > :00:12.country has seen and it really did put a lot of jobs at risk.
:00:13. > :00:15.What we have done and what the government has done by taking these
:00:16. > :00:18.difficult decisions and getting the economy back on track ` you look at
:00:19. > :00:21.what else is happening in Europe ? the UK economy is starting to grow
:00:22. > :00:24.again and move forward and that is bringing job security,
:00:25. > :00:30.Well, it is our last programme of the run and I am sure we will
:00:31. > :00:33.still be talking about this when we come back in September.
:00:34. > :00:34.Thank you both for your time today, Julian Sturdy and Diana Johnson.
:00:35. > :00:47.will keep a bit safer. That is all the time we have.
:00:48. > :00:49.So, plenty happening in Parliament this coming week, including
:00:50. > :00:52.a controversial bill to make so-called assisted dying legal and
:00:53. > :01:13.Lord Carey has intervened in the assisted dying debate. Will it make
:01:14. > :01:19.a difference? It will make a difference because we have
:01:20. > :01:25.established in the House of Lords, I am not sure who they speak for and
:01:26. > :01:32.why they should have a privileged position, but he was a big opponent
:01:33. > :01:35.and has made a change of heart. The fact that the Daily Mail has printed
:01:36. > :01:47.this shows this is a big intervention. The Bill being pushed
:01:48. > :01:53.through, is it now on the agenda? I think it is. There are international
:01:54. > :01:58.examples of assisted dying elsewhere. The state of Oregon
:01:59. > :02:04.passed a Bill similar to this in the 1990s and things have not got out of
:02:05. > :02:06.control. That has not been an expansion or abuse. It has settled
:02:07. > :02:15.down and become part of the furniture. That makes it easier for
:02:16. > :02:19.this Bill, to make the case for it. Religious people may still have a
:02:20. > :02:23.principled objection but most other people have a practical objection,
:02:24. > :02:26.which is how to put in place safeguards to deal with unscrupulous
:02:27. > :02:30.relatives or anyone else who wants to abuse this right? Once a
:02:31. > :02:36.controversial issue is only being opposed for practical reasons it is
:02:37. > :02:39.on its way to getting its way. What is the division, is it the Church
:02:40. > :02:48.against everybody else? Is it a right and left division? What is
:02:49. > :02:53.stopping it? It is a very difficult moral issue and there are people who
:02:54. > :02:58.can have genuinely held Christian beliefs or non-Christian beliefs who
:02:59. > :03:02.can be on both sides. I think that the Lord Carey intervention is
:03:03. > :03:06.potentially a game changer not just because he is a former Archbishop of
:03:07. > :03:10.Canterbury but because he was on the Evan Jellicoe side of the Church of
:03:11. > :03:17.England. That is quite a big move. The response was to say, please
:03:18. > :03:22.withdraw your bell and let us have a royal Commission. The Supreme Court
:03:23. > :03:27.kicked the ball back to Parliament when they rejected the cases of
:03:28. > :03:33.three people who had been taking the case and said, we could say that
:03:34. > :03:37.banning the right to life is against the European Court of Human Rights,
:03:38. > :03:46.but it is a moral issue and an issue for Parliament. Parliament needs to
:03:47. > :03:51.decide. The data act that is going to be pushed through Parliament. In
:03:52. > :04:00.record time. To comply with a European court judgement. Tom Watson
:04:01. > :04:04.and David Davis, some dissent. Are you so prized with how united the
:04:05. > :04:12.establishment, left, right and centre is? No. There is a great
:04:13. > :04:16.quote saying this has been enacted under the something must be done act
:04:17. > :04:23.and that captures it exactly. Even Cameron says he does not want to
:04:24. > :04:26.look people in the eye and say that he did not do everything he could.
:04:27. > :04:31.There is no end to the power of surveillance. It is all was about
:04:32. > :04:34.drawing a distinction. I am always suspicious when politicians look
:04:35. > :04:41.something up and said, we have all agreed. Are there at the centre is
:04:42. > :04:50.right or is the political establishment right? I think the
:04:51. > :04:56.establishment is right. I think it is stronger than other issues. We
:04:57. > :04:58.are in a unique position where all three political parties have
:04:59. > :05:03.relatively recent experience of government so they now that security
:05:04. > :05:10.threats are not made up by unscrupulous people. The legislation
:05:11. > :05:16.being proposed is not dramatic, it is to fill a gap that was created. I
:05:17. > :05:22.do not see the political controversy. All three political
:05:23. > :05:30.parties support it. David Davis and Liberty are against that, and always
:05:31. > :05:34.are. Would you not have expected... The Lib Dems are in government, but
:05:35. > :05:41.a bit more rebellion on the Labour backbenches? There is no political
:05:42. > :05:47.controversy put outside parliament there's quite a lot of controversy
:05:48. > :05:54.about this. My paper has taken an interest in this. It is interesting,
:05:55. > :06:02.it does not feel, it is not a 1950s, three public school boys
:06:03. > :06:06.setting, let us have this deal. The Liberal Democrats and Labour have
:06:07. > :06:14.serious questions. There's going to be a sunset clause that will run out
:06:15. > :06:20.in 2016. The Liberal Democrats, who asked pretty tough questions, have
:06:21. > :06:21.said there are assurances. Ed Miliband did not go to public
:06:22. > :06:24.school. For many English football fans,
:06:25. > :06:27.tonight's World Cup final presents How do you pick
:06:28. > :06:30.between two traditional foes Well, if you're
:06:31. > :06:33.a political obsessive, like these three, you could always back the
:06:34. > :06:36.nation according to how it votes. The website LabourList has produced
:06:37. > :06:51.a political guide to the tournament. At the beginning of the tournament,
:06:52. > :06:56.it was a fairly balanced playing field politically with 15 left wing
:06:57. > :07:00.and 17 right-wing countries. England found themselves isolated in a group
:07:01. > :07:07.with three left-wing countries. That was the least of their problems.
:07:08. > :07:09.There was a clear domination of democratic regimes over
:07:10. > :07:12.authoritarian with only six of oratory and countries making it
:07:13. > :07:22.through to the finals and the only all authoritarian tie was dubbed the
:07:23. > :07:25.worst match of the World Cup. By the second round 16 teams remained. The
:07:26. > :07:30.left had a clear advantage with nine, seven from the right and
:07:31. > :07:35.authoritarian countries all but wiped out. Two representatives
:07:36. > :07:44.remained. Both were beaten by European democracies. By the
:07:45. > :07:50.semi-finals, all was even Stephen. A right-wing Protestant Europe taking
:07:51. > :07:55.on Catholics South America. With one victory apiece, Germany knocking out
:07:56. > :08:00.Brazil and Argentina beating the Dutch, tonight's final repeats that
:08:01. > :08:10.pattern. Who will win? Angela Merkel's Germany or Argentina?
:08:11. > :08:12.We're joined now by Britain's only Labour adviser
:08:13. > :08:26.Should we read political significance in to the fact that the
:08:27. > :08:31.only time England has won the World Cup was under a Labour government?
:08:32. > :08:37.Of course. The problem is we did not qualify for Euro 2008 when it was a
:08:38. > :08:42.Labour government. We have had some pretty shoddy results under a Labour
:08:43. > :08:47.government. As someone under the left, are you backing Argentina?
:08:48. > :08:52.Absolutely not. I do not think it has anything to do with politics. It
:08:53. > :09:00.is a bit of fun. People should choose it is Don Hoop plays the best
:09:01. > :09:06.football and the Germans have been fantastic. They were great in 2010
:09:07. > :09:10.as well. They started this model in 2008 and that is the sort of thing
:09:11. > :09:15.people should be supporting. Who should a Eurosceptic support? I
:09:16. > :09:20.would not say Argentina because that is the country that has tried to
:09:21. > :09:28.seize British sovereign territory within my lifetime. You were not
:09:29. > :09:32.around for the Blitz. Believe it or not, I was not. There is a strong
:09:33. > :09:45.political case to support Germany. They are probably going to win the
:09:46. > :09:48.World Cup with a clear of -- with players of Polish origin. That sort
:09:49. > :09:56.of cultural change they have forced themselves to go through... You talk
:09:57. > :10:02.about them being right wing, but in fact the way that the German league
:10:03. > :11:46.is structured, and I am an expert, is based on ownership.
:11:47. > :11:57.is structured, and I am an expert, that Italy won two world cups under
:11:58. > :11:59.Mussolini? Can we draw any conclusions between a political
:12:00. > :12:05.system and the performance of the football team? You can draw certain
:12:06. > :12:11.parallels between maybe national cliches, so the Germans are
:12:12. > :12:16.efficient and effective, which might reflect and the English are very
:12:17. > :12:20.polite so we let everyone score first and go into the second round.
:12:21. > :12:26.We put ourselves at the back of the queue. Is England going to qualify
:12:27. > :12:36.for the European? We are going to win the European Championship. The
:12:37. > :12:44.first country Scotland have to play is Germany. What could possibly go
:12:45. > :12:55.wrong? Who is going to win? Germany. Germany. I am going to put a few bob
:12:56. > :13:02.on Argentina. Are you going to be watching? Absolutely. Thank you.
:13:03. > :13:07.This is the last Sunday Politics for the summer.
:13:08. > :13:10.But we'll be back in early autumn and our first programme will be live
:13:11. > :13:16.from Scotland, the weekend before the referendum
:13:17. > :13:21.The Daily Politics is back tomorrow at noon and we'll bring you
:13:22. > :13:24.the last PMQs before the summer on Wednesday morning from 11:30am.
:13:25. > :13:28.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics, unless