:00:36. > :00:42.Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.
:00:43. > :00:44.Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out
:00:45. > :00:53.their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.
:00:54. > :00:55.They released a video late last night, showing a masked man
:00:56. > :01:01.beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.
:01:02. > :01:03.The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.
:01:04. > :01:06.Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.
:01:07. > :01:09.David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.
:01:10. > :01:11.As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA
:01:12. > :01:15.President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder
:01:16. > :01:22.Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as
:01:23. > :01:24.he predicts a historic and substantial victory in
:01:25. > :01:33.As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,
:01:34. > :01:35.I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his
:01:36. > :01:43.And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown
:01:44. > :01:45.David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask
:01:46. > :01:57.And, as South Yorkshire's Crane it's enough to win over waverers.
:01:58. > :01:59.And, as South Yorkshire's Crane Commissioner
:02:00. > :02:12.step closer back to Parliament. Is it a lame-duck administration?
:02:13. > :02:15.Late last night, as most folk were preparing for bed, news broke that
:02:16. > :02:18.Islamic State extremists had carried out their threat to murder the
:02:19. > :02:22.The group released a video, similar to the ones in which two American
:02:23. > :02:24.journalists were decapitated, showing a masked man apparently
:02:25. > :02:28.beheading Mr Haines who was taken captive in Syria last year.
:02:29. > :02:30.The terrorist, who has a southern British accent,
:02:31. > :02:34.also threatened the life of a second hostage from the UK
:02:35. > :02:37.Mr Haines is the third Westerner to be killed
:02:38. > :02:41.His family have paid tribute to his humanitarian work; they say he
:02:42. > :02:48.David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil, and said
:02:49. > :02:51.his heart went out to Mr Haines family, who had shown extraordinary
:02:52. > :03:01.Mr Cameron went on to say, "We will do everything in our power
:03:02. > :03:03.to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face justice,
:03:04. > :03:08.Mr Haines was born in England and brought up in Scotland.
:03:09. > :03:12.Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond condemned the killing on the Marr
:03:13. > :03:26.Well, it's an act of unspeakable barbarism that we have seen.
:03:27. > :03:32.Obviously our condolences go to the family members of David Haynes who
:03:33. > :03:38.have borne this with such fortitude in recent months -- David
:03:39. > :03:41.Alex Salmond was also asked whether he supported military action
:03:42. > :03:53.Haines there is no reason to believe whatsoever that China or Russia or
:03:54. > :03:58.any country will see their will to deal with this barbarism. There is a
:03:59. > :04:01.will for effective, international, legal action but it must come in
:04:02. > :04:08.that fashion, and I would urge that to be a consideration to develop a
:04:09. > :04:09.collective response to what is a threat to humanity.
:04:10. > :04:11.Our security correspondent Gordon Corera joins me now
:04:12. > :04:23.Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra emergency meeting is meeting yet
:04:24. > :04:29.again. It meets a lot these days. I would suggest that the options
:04:30. > :04:33.facing this committee and Mr Cameron are pretty limited. That's right. I
:04:34. > :04:39.think they are extremely limited. They have been all along in these
:04:40. > :04:42.hostage situations. We know, for instance, that British government
:04:43. > :04:46.policy is not to pay ransom is to kidnappers. Other Europeans states
:04:47. > :04:51.are thought to have done so to get hostages released, and also not to
:04:52. > :04:57.make substantive policy concessions to the groups, so while there might
:04:58. > :05:00.be contact, there won't be a lot of options left. We know the US in the
:05:01. > :05:09.past has looked at rescue missions and in July on operation to free the
:05:10. > :05:12.hostages, landing at the oil facility in Syria but finding no one
:05:13. > :05:16.there. If you look at the options, they are not great. That is the
:05:17. > :05:25.difficult situation which Cobra will have been discussing the last hour.
:05:26. > :05:28.Does this make it more likely, because it might have the direction
:05:29. > :05:35.the government was going in any way, that we join with the Americans in
:05:36. > :05:40.perhaps the regional allies in air strikes against Islamic State, not
:05:41. > :05:44.just in Iraq, but also in Syria We heard from President Obama outlining
:05:45. > :05:46.his strategy against Islamic State last week when he talked about
:05:47. > :05:52.building a coalition, about authorising air strikes. And
:05:53. > :05:57.training troops. We are still waiting to hear what exact role the
:05:58. > :06:07.UK will play in that. We know it will play a role because it has been
:06:08. > :06:12.arming the fishmonger forces but the question is, will it actually
:06:13. > :06:17.conduct military strikes in Iraq -- arming the passion are there. We
:06:18. > :06:28.have not got a clear answer from government and that is something
:06:29. > :06:30.where they are ours to discuss what was around the table. It's possible
:06:31. > :06:34.we might learn some more today as a was around the table. It's possible
:06:35. > :06:38.result of the Cobra meeting, but I think the government will be wanting
:06:39. > :06:41.to not be seen to suddenly rushed to a completely different policy as a
:06:42. > :06:46.result of one incident, however terrible it is.
:06:47. > :06:47.result of one incident, however their reserve -- resolved to play
:06:48. > :06:53.more active role in the coalition, that's possible, but we have to wait
:06:54. > :07:00.see to get the detail. -- wait and see. What the whole country would
:07:01. > :07:03.like to see would be British and American special forces going in and
:07:04. > :07:09.getting these guys. I think that would unite the nation. But that is
:07:10. > :07:13.very difficult, isn't it? It is As you saw with a rescue mission a few
:07:14. > :07:16.months ago, the problem is getting actionable intelligence on the
:07:17. > :07:18.ground at a particular moment. The theory is that the group of
:07:19. > :07:22.kidnappers are moving the hostages may be even every or few days, so
:07:23. > :09:02.you need intelligence and quickly may be even every or few days, so
:09:03. > :09:12.other polls last week. For polls were published last night, one by
:09:13. > :09:19.Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign -- Better Together campaign, and
:09:20. > :09:23.there was another that gave a one percentage point different. ICM have
:09:24. > :09:29.the yes campaign back in the lead at 54% and the no campaign at 46%, but
:09:30. > :09:34.their sample size was 705 Scottish adults, smaller than usual. Another
:09:35. > :09:44.suggests that the contest remains on a knife edge with 49.4% against
:09:45. > :09:51.50.6%. When fed into the poll of polls the figures average out with
:09:52. > :09:55.yes at 49% and polls -- no at 5 %. But some people think 18% are
:09:56. > :09:58.undecided, and it is how they vote gets -- when they get to the polling
:09:59. > :10:00.booths that could make all the difference.
:10:01. > :10:04.campaigner and Respect Party MP George Galloway.
:10:05. > :10:11.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big business, big oil, big banks, the
:10:12. > :10:16.Tories, the Orange order, all against Scottish independence. You
:10:17. > :10:19.sure you are on right side? Yes because the interests of working
:10:20. > :10:22.people are in staying together. This is a troubled moment in a marriage,
:10:23. > :10:28.a very long marriage, in which some good things and bad things have been
:10:29. > :10:31.achieved together. And there is no doubt that the crockery is being
:10:32. > :10:36.thrown around the house of the minute. But I believe that the
:10:37. > :10:39.underlying interests of working people are on working on the
:10:40. > :10:43.relationship rather than divorce. I have been divorced. It's a very
:10:44. > :10:46.messy, acrimonious, bitter affair and it's particularly bad for the
:10:47. > :10:52.children will stop that's why I am here. You talk about working people,
:10:53. > :10:55.and particularly Scottish working people, they seem to have concluded
:10:56. > :10:59.that the social democracy they want to create cannot now be done in a UK
:11:00. > :11:05.context. Why should they not have a shot of going it alone? Because the
:11:06. > :11:09.opposite will happen. Separation will cause a race to the bottom in
:11:10. > :11:15.taxation. Alex Salmond has already announced he will cut the taxes on
:11:16. > :11:19.companies, corporation tax, down to 3% hello whatever it is in the rest
:11:20. > :11:26.of these islands. And business will only be attracted to come here,
:11:27. > :11:29.country of 5 million people on if there is low regulation, low public
:11:30. > :11:35.expenditure, low levels of taxation for them will stop you cannot have
:11:36. > :11:39.Scandinavian social democracy on Texan levels of taxation. The
:11:40. > :11:43.British government, as will be, the rest of the UK, they will race Alex
:11:44. > :11:51.Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it by three, they will cut it by four.
:11:52. > :11:54.And so on. So whether some people cannot see it clearly yet or not,
:11:55. > :11:58.the interests of the working people on both sides of the border would be
:11:59. > :12:01.gravely damaged by separation. Let's take the interest of the working
:12:02. > :12:05.people. As you know, as well as anyone, the coalition is in
:12:06. > :12:10.fermenting both a series of cuts and reforms in welfare, and labour,
:12:11. > :12:14.Westminster Labour, has only limited plans to reverse any of that. Surely
:12:15. > :12:21.if you want to preserve the welfare state as it is, independence is the
:12:22. > :12:24.way to do it. For the reasons I just explain, I don't believe that. But
:12:25. > :12:32.Ed Miliband will be along in a minute. He will be along in May The
:12:33. > :12:36.polls indicate... They say he is only four or 5%, that is the
:12:37. > :12:41.average. Like the referendum, the next general election could be nip
:12:42. > :12:45.and tuck. I don't, myself, think that the time of David Cameron as
:12:46. > :12:48.Prime Minister is for much longer. I think there will be a Labour
:12:49. > :12:55.government in the spring and the Labour government in London and a
:12:56. > :12:58.stronger Scottish Parliament, super Devo Max, that is now on the table.
:12:59. > :13:03.That is the best arrangement of people in the country. But the
:13:04. > :13:07.people of Scotland surely cannot base a decision on independence on
:13:08. > :13:12.your feeling that Labour might win the next general election. It is my
:13:13. > :13:16.feeling. When the Tories were beaten on the bedroom tax last week in the
:13:17. > :13:20.house, it was written all over the faces of the government side not
:13:21. > :13:29.only that they were headed for defeat, but probably a massive fishy
:13:30. > :13:34.-- Fisher. I think the race to the bottom that I have proper size will
:13:35. > :13:42.mean that the welfare state will be a distant memory quite soon. The
:13:43. > :13:48.cuts and the run on the Scottish economy here in Edinburgh, the
:13:49. > :13:53.financial services industry, that will be gravely damage. The Ministry
:13:54. > :14:00.of Defence jobs in Scotland decimated, probably ended, more or
:14:01. > :14:04.less. It will be a time of cuts and austerity, maybe super austerity in
:14:05. > :14:07.an independent Scotland. You mentioned defence. What about
:14:08. > :14:11.nuclear weapons? The Tories and Labour will keep them. You are
:14:12. > :14:15.against them. Surely the only way to be rid of them in Scotland is by
:14:16. > :14:21.independence. But you are not rid of them by telling them down the river.
:14:22. > :14:26.The danger would be the same -- telling them down the river. The
:14:27. > :14:30.danger would be the same. Nuclear radiation does not respect Alex
:14:31. > :14:36.Salmond's national boundaries. They would be committed to immediately
:14:37. > :14:39.joining NATO, which is bristling with nuclear weapons and is what --
:14:40. > :14:45.involved in wars across the Atlantic. So anyone looking for a
:14:46. > :14:49.peace option will have to elect a government in Britain as a whole
:14:50. > :14:51.that will get rid of nuclear weapons and get out of military
:14:52. > :14:57.entanglements. We are in one again now. I have been up the whole night,
:14:58. > :15:01.till 5am, dealing with some of the consequences and implications of the
:15:02. > :15:08.grave international matter that you opened the show with. David Haines
:15:09. > :15:13.and the fate of the hostage still in their hands. There are many other
:15:14. > :15:17.hostages as well. And there are many people dying who are neither British
:15:18. > :15:22.nor American. I have, somehow, been drawn into this matter. And it
:15:23. > :15:31.showed me, again, that the world is interdependent. It is absolutely
:15:32. > :15:36.riven with division and hatred, and this is the worst possible time to
:15:37. > :15:43.be opting out of the world to set up a small mini-state on the promises
:15:44. > :15:47.of Alex Salmond of social democracy funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for
:15:48. > :15:52.the sake of the next question, assume that everything you have told
:15:53. > :16:04.us is true. Why is your side squandering a 20 point lead?
:16:05. > :16:11.I will have a great deal to say about that, whatever the result
:16:12. > :16:18.This is very much a Scottish Labour project, is that not a condemnation
:16:19. > :16:26.of Scottish Labour? It is potentially on its deathbed. The
:16:27. > :16:42.country breaking up, the principal responsibility will be on them. And
:16:43. > :16:47.the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job that has been made of defending a
:16:48. > :16:52.300-year-old relationship in this island by the Scottish Labour
:16:53. > :16:58.leadership is really terrible for me to behold, even though I'm no longer
:16:59. > :17:03.one of them. I don't know how they are going to get out of this
:17:04. > :17:09.deathbed. Do you agree that if this referendum is lost by your side it
:17:10. > :17:12.will be because traditional working-class Labour voters,
:17:13. > :17:17.particularly in the west of Scotland, have abundant Labour and
:17:18. > :17:23.decided to vote for independence? Without a doubt, the number of
:17:24. > :17:28.Labour voters intending to vote yes is disturbingly high. Even just
:17:29. > :17:32.months ago during the European Parliament elections, swathes of
:17:33. > :17:38.people who didn't vote SNP will be voting yes on Thursday. That is a
:17:39. > :17:44.grave squandering of a great legacy of Scottish Labour history, which
:17:45. > :17:50.history will decree as unforgivable. If Labour is to get
:17:51. > :17:56.out of its deathbed in Scotland it will have to become Labour again.
:17:57. > :18:04.Real Labour again. I am ready to help them with that. My goodness,
:18:05. > :18:10.they need help with it. I wonder if it isn't just a failure of Labour in
:18:11. > :18:14.Scotland. People all over Britain are increasingly fed up with the
:18:15. > :18:19.Westminster system, but it is only the Scots who currently have the
:18:20. > :18:24.chance to break free from it, so why shouldn't they? That is exactly
:18:25. > :18:31.right. They see a parliament of expenses cheats led by Lord snooty
:18:32. > :18:35.and the Bullingdon club elite, carrying through austerity for many
:18:36. > :18:41.but not for themselves and they are repulsed by it. They need change,
:18:42. > :18:46.but you can go backwards and call it change but it will be worse than the
:18:47. > :18:52.situation you have now. A lot of Scottish people don't buy that. It
:18:53. > :18:58.is a big gamble. If I were poised to put my family's life savings on the
:18:59. > :19:02.roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife would not be scaremongering if she
:19:03. > :19:07.pointed out the potential consequences if I'd lost. She would
:19:08. > :19:12.not be negative by telling me that is my children's money I am risking.
:19:13. > :19:15.If I jumped off this roof it would change my point of view, but it
:19:16. > :19:20.would be worse than the point of view I have now. There is another
:19:21. > :19:25.issue here because the Scots are being asked to gamble on the
:19:26. > :19:31.Westminster parties, which they are already suspicious of, of delivering
:19:32. > :19:37.home rule. Alistair Darling could not even tell me if Ed Balls had
:19:38. > :19:42.signed off on more income tax powers for Scotland, so that is a gamble
:19:43. > :19:48.for the Scots. I feel the British state has had such a shake out of
:19:49. > :19:54.all this that they would be beyond idiots, they would be insane now to
:19:55. > :19:59.risk all of this flaring up again because whatever happens, if we win
:20:00. > :20:05.on Thursday, it is going to be narrowly. It will be a severe
:20:06. > :20:10.fissure in Scotland. A great deal of unpleasantness that we are already
:20:11. > :20:16.aware of. That could turn but we're still. It would be dicing with
:20:17. > :20:22.death, playing with fire, to let Scottish people down after Thursday
:20:23. > :20:28.if we narrowly win. If you narrowly win, and if there are moves to this
:20:29. > :20:32.home rule Mr Brown has been talking about, England hasn't spoken yet on
:20:33. > :20:39.this. Whilst England would probably not want to stop -- stop Scotland
:20:40. > :20:48.getting this, they would say, what about us? It could delay the whole
:20:49. > :20:53.procedure. It is necessary, you are right. England should have home
:20:54. > :20:59.rule, and I screamed at Scottish Labour MPs going into the vote to
:21:00. > :21:03.introduce tuition fees in England. I told them this was a constitutional
:21:04. > :21:10.monstrosity, as well as a crime against young people in England It
:21:11. > :21:16.was risking everything. We are led by idiots. Our leaders are not James
:21:17. > :21:22.Bonds, they are Austin powers. We need to change the leadership, not
:21:23. > :21:28.rip up a 300-year-old marriage. Thank you.
:21:29. > :21:31.It's been one of the longest and hardest fought political campaigns
:21:32. > :21:34.in history, with Alex Salmond firing the starting gun on the referendum
:21:35. > :21:45.Adam's been stitching together the key moments of the campaign
:21:46. > :21:51.It is the other thing drawing people to the Scottish parliament, the new
:21:52. > :21:58.great tapestry of Scotland. It is the story of battles won and lost,
:21:59. > :22:02.Scottish moments, British moments, famous Scots, and not so famous
:22:03. > :22:09.Scots. There is even a panel dedicated to the rise of the SNP.
:22:10. > :22:13.Alex Salmond's majority in the elections in 2011 made the
:22:14. > :22:18.referendum inevitable. It became reality when he and David Cameron
:22:19. > :22:23.did a deal in Edinburgh one year later. The Scottish Government set
:22:24. > :22:29.out its plans for independence in this book, just a wish list to some,
:22:30. > :22:35.a sacred text to others. This White Paper is the most detailed
:22:36. > :22:40.improvements that any people have ever been offered in the world as a
:22:41. > :22:46.basis for becoming an independent country. The no campaign, called
:22:47. > :22:51.Better Together, united the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems under the
:22:52. > :22:55.leadership of Alistair Darling. Then the Scottish people were bombarded
:22:56. > :22:59.with two years of photo opportunities and a lot of
:23:00. > :23:04.campaigning. For the no campaign, Jim Murphy went on tour but took a
:23:05. > :23:09.break when he was egged and his events were often hijacked by yes
:23:10. > :23:15.campaigners who were accused of being intimidating. In turn, they
:23:16. > :23:23.accused the no campaign of using scare tactics. Things heated up when
:23:24. > :23:28.the TV dinner -- during the TV debate. Fever pitch was reached one
:23:29. > :23:33.week ago when one poll suggested the yes campaign was in the lead for the
:23:34. > :23:38.first time. The three main Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to
:23:39. > :23:43.head north. I think people can feel it is like a general election, that
:23:44. > :23:46.you make a decision and five years later you can make another decision
:23:47. > :23:55.if you are fed up with the Tories, give them a kick... This is totally
:23:56. > :24:00.different. And Labour shelved not quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex
:24:01. > :24:04.Salmond took a helicopter instead. This is about the formation of the
:24:05. > :24:14.NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign is that changes to the NHS in Linden
:24:15. > :24:20.-- in England would lead to privatisation in Scotland. Alex
:24:21. > :24:27.Salmond's plan to share the pound was trashed by big names. There were
:24:28. > :24:31.other big question is, what would happen to military hardware like
:24:32. > :24:37.Trident based on the Clyde? Would an independent Scotland be able to join
:24:38. > :24:41.the EU? And how much oil was left underneath the North Sea?
:24:42. > :24:49.This panel is about famous Scots, we have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry,
:24:50. > :24:53.Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon Brown. These are big changes we are
:24:54. > :24:59.proposing to strengthen the Scottish parliament, but at the same time to
:25:00. > :25:03.stay as part of the UK. A regular on the campaign, he was front and
:25:04. > :25:07.centre when things got close, unveiling a timetable for more
:25:08. > :25:11.devolution. People wondered whether Ed Miliband was able to reach the
:25:12. > :25:15.parts of Scotland Labour leader should reach, and at Westminster
:25:16. > :25:20.some Tories pondered whether David Cameron could stay as prime minister
:25:21. > :25:25.if there was a yes vote. This tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a
:25:26. > :25:31.good place to get away from it all but it is crystallising voters'
:25:32. > :25:40.views. Look at what we have contributed to Great Britain, and I
:25:41. > :25:43.am British and I hope to be staying British. This is what people from
:25:44. > :25:47.Scotland have done, taken to the rest of the world in many cases and
:25:48. > :25:51.I think I am going to vote yes. I am so inspired by it. It has certainly
:25:52. > :25:56.inspired me to have a go at stitching. How long do you think it
:25:57. > :26:01.would take to do the whole thing? I would say to put aside maybe 30
:26:02. > :26:05.hours of stitching. Maybe by the time I am done, we will know more
:26:06. > :26:09.about how the fabric of the nation might be changing.
:26:10. > :26:12.And I've been joined by yes campaigner and convenor
:26:13. > :26:14.of Scotland's Solidarity socialist party, Tommy Sheridan.
:26:15. > :26:26.An economy dependent on oil, the Queen as head of state, membership
:26:27. > :26:31.of the world 's premier nuclear alliance of capitalist nations is
:26:32. > :26:42.that the socialist Scotland you are fighting for? No, that is the SNP's
:26:43. > :26:46.prospectus and they are entitled to put forward their vision, but it is
:26:47. > :26:52.not mine or that of the majority of Scotland. We will find out in two
:26:53. > :26:57.years. On Thursday we are not voting for a political party, we are voting
:26:58. > :27:02.for our freedom as a country. That is why people are going to vote yes
:27:03. > :27:07.on Thursday. A lot of people are voting for what you call freedom
:27:08. > :27:12.because they think it will be more Scotland. You have already got free
:27:13. > :27:17.prescriptions, no tuition fees, free care for the elderly. You might not
:27:18. > :27:22.in future have that if public spending is overdependent on the
:27:23. > :27:26.price of oil, over which you have no control. We don't have to worry
:27:27. > :27:33.about one single resource, we already have 20% of the fishing
:27:34. > :27:43.stock in Europe. We already have 25% of the wind, wave and solar power
:27:44. > :29:22.generation. We, as an independent country, have huge
:29:23. > :29:26.generation. We, as an independent website called oilandgas.com. The
:29:27. > :29:31.West Coast has 100 years of oil to be extracted. It hasn't been done
:29:32. > :29:37.because in 1981 Michael Heseltine said we cannot extract the oil
:29:38. > :29:46.because we have Trident going up and down there. Let's get rid of Trident
:29:47. > :29:52.and extract the oil. You are a trot right, why have you failed to learn
:29:53. > :29:57.his famous dictum, socialism in one country is impossible. Revolutions
:29:58. > :30:01.and change are not just single event. What will happen here on
:30:02. > :30:07.Thursday is a democratic revolution. The people are fed up of being
:30:08. > :30:12.patronised and lied to by this mob in Westminster who have used and
:30:13. > :30:17.abused us for far too long. The smaller people now have a voice
:30:18. > :30:26.What about socialism in one country? Mr Trotsky warned you
:30:27. > :30:31.against that. The no campaign represents the past. The yes
:30:32. > :30:35.campaign represents the future. That is the truth of the matter. What we
:30:36. > :30:43.are going to do in an independent Scotland is tackle inequality and a
:30:44. > :30:49.scourge of low pay. If we vote no on Thursday, there will be more low pay
:30:50. > :30:52.on Friday, more poverty and food banks on Friday. I'm not going to be
:30:53. > :31:01.lectured by these big banks, you vote less -- yes and we will leave
:31:02. > :31:08.the country! The food banks will be the ones closing. If you got your
:31:09. > :31:12.way, for the type of Scotland you would like to see, state control of
:31:13. > :31:16.business, nationalisation of the Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be
:31:17. > :31:26.clogged with people Yes, hoping to come into Scotland,
:31:27. > :31:33.because in their hearts, the Scottish people know that England
:31:34. > :31:38.want to see the people having the bottle. The working class people in
:31:39. > :31:41.Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of London, they are saying good on the
:31:42. > :31:45.jocks that are taking on big business. When we are independent
:31:46. > :31:49.and investing in social housing the people of England will say, we can
:31:50. > :31:54.do that as well, and they will rediscover the radical tradition. In
:31:55. > :31:57.wanting to build socialism in one country, it really means you are
:31:58. > :32:01.fighting for the few, rather than the many. You are bailing out of the
:32:02. > :32:09.socialist Battle for Britain. You think it will be easier to make it
:32:10. > :32:13.work. Think globally, act locally and we will build socialism in
:32:14. > :32:16.Scotland but I wanted across the world. I won my brothers and sisters
:32:17. > :32:21.in England and Wales to be encouraged by what we do so they can
:32:22. > :32:25.reject the Westminster consensus as well -- I want. We had the three
:32:26. > :32:29.Stooges coming up to London, three millionaires united on one thing,
:32:30. > :32:33.austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed Miliband wins the next election he
:32:34. > :32:38.said he would stick to the story spending cuts. Why vote for Ed
:32:39. > :32:43.Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to run a bath, not a country. Let's see
:32:44. > :32:47.if this is realistic, this great socialist vision. At the last
:32:48. > :32:50.Scottish election, the Socialist party got 8000 votes. The
:32:51. > :32:56.Conservatives got 30 times more votes. Where is the appetite in
:32:57. > :33:01.Scotland for your Marxist ideology question we might not win it. But do
:33:02. > :33:16.you know what, see in two years time. See when we have the Scottish
:33:17. > :33:19.general election. You won't -- you are saying you might win and you
:33:20. > :33:25.went to the Holyrood election and got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won
:33:26. > :33:29.a democratic election and then won the 2011 election and you know why
:33:30. > :33:33.they won? Because they picked up the clothes that the Labour Party has
:33:34. > :33:38.thrown away. They picked up the close of social democracy and
:33:39. > :33:44.protecting the health service was -- service. There are people in the SNP
:33:45. > :33:48.who believe in public ownership and people in the SNP who believe in the
:33:49. > :33:52.NHS should be written into a constitution as never for sale
:33:53. > :33:56.people in the the SNP that think the Royal mail should return to public
:33:57. > :33:59.ownership. That is there in black and white. Do you agree with George
:34:00. > :34:05.Galloway that this is potentially a crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish
:34:06. > :34:08.Labour is finished. They are absolutely finished. George is right
:34:09. > :34:13.in that. Scottish Labour is finished. The irony of ironies is,
:34:14. > :34:16.Labour in Scotland has more chance of recovery in an independent
:34:17. > :34:21.Scotland that they have in a no vote. Labour in Scotland in an
:34:22. > :34:27.independent country will have to rediscover the traditions of Keir
:34:28. > :34:32.Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon, because right now, they are to the
:34:33. > :34:37.right of the SNP as a political party. I understand the socialist
:34:38. > :34:44.vision, but it is where the appetite is. And you look at the independence
:34:45. > :34:50.people in Scotland. One of your colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who
:34:51. > :34:53.fought against the appeal -- repeal of homosexual rights in Scotland.
:34:54. > :35:00.Another of your allies would seem to be Rupert Murdoch, the man who
:35:01. > :35:03.engineered your downfall. You say he engineered your downfall, but I m
:35:04. > :35:10.still here and his newspaper has closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch,
:35:11. > :35:13.Brian Souter, or any other millionaire supporting independence,
:35:14. > :35:17.I couldn't care less. This boat on Thursday is not about millionaires,
:35:18. > :35:24.it is about the millions. -- this vote. We will not be abused any
:35:25. > :35:28.young -- longer. Would you rather not have their support? I couldn't
:35:29. > :35:33.care about the support. You know who is supporting the union. It is the
:35:34. > :35:40.unions of the big businesses, the BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who
:35:41. > :35:43.support it. You are giving me a stray that has wandered into the
:35:44. > :35:48.campaign and are you seriously going to argue with me that the
:35:49. > :35:52.establishment isn't united to try and save the union? That is what
:35:53. > :35:56.they are trying to be. The BBC, you have been a disgrace in your
:35:57. > :36:01.coverage of the campaign. Not you personally. You don't have editorial
:36:02. > :36:06.control. The BBC coverage, generally, has been a disgrace and
:36:07. > :36:10.the people. Oil and gas, go and look at that, why is that not feature.
:36:11. > :36:13.Why is the idea of 100 years of oil not featured in the campaign.
:36:14. > :36:18.Because the BBC does not want to see it. Are you getting in your excuses
:36:19. > :36:24.if you lose? You better be kidding. Is this the face of somebody looking
:36:25. > :36:31.to lose. We are going to win, 6 /40. Absolutely. There is a momentum that
:36:32. > :36:34.you guys are not seeing on the working-class housing estates.
:36:35. > :36:39.Working class people are fed up being taken for granted fed up with
:36:40. > :36:46.the lives of people dragging us into tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor.
:36:47. > :36:50.They will have power on Thursday, and they will use it and vote for
:36:51. > :36:55.freedom. Are you happy with the way the BBC has treated you today? So
:36:56. > :36:59.far, yes. I have still not been offered a Coffey, but that might
:37:00. > :37:02.happen. That is an obvious example of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to
:37:03. > :37:25.Hello, you are watching Sunday you later with George Galloway.
:37:26. > :37:30.Hello, you are watching Sunday Politics for Yorkshire and
:37:31. > :37:33.Lincolnshire. Coming up Colhn as South Yorkshire's Police and Crime
:37:34. > :37:37.Commissioner clings onto his job, we ask whether Rotherham can ever
:37:38. > :37:44.repair the damage caused by the abuse scandal.
:37:45. > :37:48.And we will be finding out why a survey reveals a growing nulber of
:37:49. > :37:54.Yorkshire people want more direct power to be shifted north away from
:37:55. > :37:58.Westminster. C hello to our guests who are Sarah Champion, the Labour
:37:59. > :38:02.MPs Rotherham, Stuart Andrew, Conservative MP for Pudsey, and Jane
:38:03. > :38:08.Collins, UKIP MEP for Yorkshire and the Humber. It is the scand`l that
:38:09. > :38:14.has cast a dark shadow over Yorkshire town. Revelations that
:38:15. > :38:17.1400 children were groomed `nd abused by criminal gangs in
:38:18. > :38:21.Rotherham caused shock waves across the world. But it is the fahlure of
:38:22. > :38:29.many in authority to prevent the abuse that is dominating thd
:38:30. > :38:32.political agenda and the man still in the firing line as the Police and
:38:33. > :38:40.Crime Commissioner Shaun Wrhght He has so far refused to resign despite
:38:41. > :38:43.repeated calls to do so. False evidence given to the
:38:44. > :38:47.committee under both is subject to the penalties for perjury.
:38:48. > :38:51.Demanding answers about who knew what and when.
:38:52. > :38:53.I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall get before the
:38:54. > :38:58.committee... Shall be the truth, the whole truth
:38:59. > :39:08.and nothing but the truth. And a fire from politicians was the
:39:09. > :39:12.Police and Crime Commissiondr. Everybody takes some responsibility
:39:13. > :39:17.for the safety of children. We all have to work together to do our very
:39:18. > :39:22.best to safeguard those people. At the time that I was both deputy
:39:23. > :39:24.and Chief Constable, I had no idea of the scale and scope of this kind
:39:25. > :39:29.of organised crime. I do accept that things shotld have
:39:30. > :39:33.been done differently. How can you sit there and ddny
:39:34. > :39:38.everything you have done. How can you do it? You can't even lhke me in
:39:39. > :39:41.the face. This week, the Police and Crime
:39:42. > :39:44.Commissioner and former councillor in charge of Rotherham's chhldren
:39:45. > :39:48.services faced a direct att`ck from victims.
:39:49. > :39:52.I have had to live like this for 12 bloody years and what have xou done?
:39:53. > :39:57.You have still got your job. You should stand down!
:39:58. > :40:02.It is hard to recall a time when a public official has faced stch
:40:03. > :40:07.overwhelming pressure to resign with attempts being made to hand
:40:08. > :40:13.them out office, and yet th`t person remains steadfast.
:40:14. > :40:17.It is awful but the commisshoner has been able to walk away from the
:40:18. > :40:22.meeting today still holding the position that he holds. Somd of the
:40:23. > :40:28.evidence that we heard therd was harrowing from victims and victims
:40:29. > :40:32.families. I am afraid that the Commissioner is now part of the
:40:33. > :40:38.problem rather than being p`rt of the solution.
:40:39. > :40:41.I specifically asked Shaun Wright if children in care were being
:40:42. > :40:48.protected or there was still `` were still being dehumanised. He didn't
:40:49. > :40:53.answer. People are not happx. They don't want him here. He is putting
:40:54. > :40:57.the rot in Rotherham. What I have outlined in the panel
:40:58. > :41:01.today... So everybody is wrong and you are
:41:02. > :41:05.the only one that can champhon the cause of these abused girls and the
:41:06. > :41:08.girls that are still being `bused? What I have said is that I `m more
:41:09. > :41:12.than happy to stand by my rdcord in the last two years.
:41:13. > :41:16.But your record is that you haven't even managed to slow down the rate
:41:17. > :41:20.of this crime. I record shows that South Yorkshire
:41:21. > :41:26.Police and myself have put hn place a huge amount of work, a huge amount
:41:27. > :41:29.of actions, ten times more police officers, 20 times more invdstment
:41:30. > :41:34.than we ever had in the past in South Yorkshire Police.
:41:35. > :41:40.It is a story that sent shock waves around the world, that such horrific
:41:41. > :41:47.violent abuse could be carrhed out on so many children under the noses
:41:48. > :41:54.of people who should protect them. Ofsted call into the council and
:41:55. > :42:02.come up with things like not fit for purpose and adequate. All the
:42:03. > :42:08.answers are there. If she h`s found it, why haven't Ofsted find it?
:42:09. > :42:15.There are serious questions that need to be answered B number of
:42:16. > :42:18.agencies and because of the decisions of Ofsted themselves. I
:42:19. > :42:22.will be rating to them to ask if they were aware of those matters
:42:23. > :42:30.when they decided to producd a glowing report `` writing to them.
:42:31. > :42:37.Despite clear failings, no one has been sacked. But the blame game sees
:42:38. > :42:40.no signs of abating. The focus is now on how authorities begin the
:42:41. > :42:50.trust of those they have let down. In response of criticism `` to
:42:51. > :42:57.criticism, Ofsted say they have introduced a new tougher inspection
:42:58. > :43:01.framework, placing greater scrutiny on the effectiveness of help for
:43:02. > :43:06.young people. Inspectors ard now required to evaluate the extent to
:43:07. > :43:09.which the risks of sexual exploitation are understood and
:43:10. > :43:15.acted upon. Sarah Champion, the question so many
:43:16. > :43:20.people are asking, how long can Police Commissioner Shaun Wright
:43:21. > :43:24.remain in his job? He should have gone the day this
:43:25. > :43:32.scandal broke. He has no crddibility whatsoever. The victims and their
:43:33. > :43:37.families are, apologies for the expression, well, he is rubbing
:43:38. > :43:40.their faces in it. He is trxing to get prosecutions and as long as you
:43:41. > :43:44.are staying in the post, thdy have no credibility.
:43:45. > :43:49.He says he has had more than 10 messages of support, includhng from
:43:50. > :43:54.MPs. Have you met one that supports?
:43:55. > :43:59.I have not met one MP that supports. 100 messages of support? I hmagine
:44:00. > :44:03.he has had hundreds of thousands calling for him to resign. H am not
:44:04. > :44:06.going to call the man a liar but I do not know of any MP that hs
:44:07. > :44:15.standing by him. Stuart Andrew, Nick Clegg s`ys the
:44:16. > :44:17.Shaun Wright case shows that the whole system of Police and Crime
:44:18. > :44:21.Commissioners has been discredited in that post should now be
:44:22. > :44:24.scrapped. Is he right? I wouldn't go that far
:44:25. > :44:31.but it shows that there needs to be some form of recall. This is an
:44:32. > :44:36.embarrassing situation. The only people who are suffering ard quite
:44:37. > :44:40.frankly the victims because all they are seeing somebody trying to
:44:41. > :44:47.protect their position and that is not acceptable. What we need to see
:44:48. > :44:49.is this man go because I have, unfortunately, worked with people
:44:50. > :44:55.who have been abused as children in the past. What they really need is
:44:56. > :44:58.trust to be rebuilt and how can you trust somebody who was in charge of
:44:59. > :45:04.the children services at thd time this went on? It is not on. He needs
:45:05. > :45:07.to do the decent thing and resign so we can get on and help thosd
:45:08. > :45:13.victims. You accept that was a flaw hn the
:45:14. > :45:16.system. When the government created the Police and Crime Commissioners,
:45:17. > :45:23.you can get rid of these people I do accept that what we nedd to do
:45:24. > :45:30.is a proper recall system. Jane Collins, you are a UK
:45:31. > :45:35.Parliamentary candidate in Rotherham. What is your takd on
:45:36. > :45:44.things? It's a complete tragedy. Never made
:45:45. > :45:48.anybody's position. The first thing should be what is put in pl`ce for
:45:49. > :45:53.the victims and the girls and boys who haven't come forward yet. Yes,
:45:54. > :45:58.Shaun Wright should go and H actually asked for him to go
:45:59. > :46:06.immediately. The Police and Crime Commissioner is just a consdrvative
:46:07. > :46:15.vanity project. They are of no use. We have had a number of reshgnations
:46:16. > :46:19.in Rotherham but there are still people on generous salaries who
:46:20. > :46:25.turned a blind eye to this `buse. That is not acceptable, is ht?
:46:26. > :46:28.Not at all. The thing that really angered me was that when thd story
:46:29. > :46:33.broke the Chief Executive s`id there was going to be no disciplinary
:46:34. > :46:37.action. There is not the Chhef Executive and the country when
:46:38. > :46:41.presented with evidence likd that would see there is no case to
:46:42. > :46:46.answer. I am disgusted they have said that. The people resigning
:46:47. > :46:52.they need to be held accountable still. Or let them think th`t just
:46:53. > :46:55.by stepping down they have `bsolve themselves of responsibilitx.
:46:56. > :47:02.Including criminal prosecuthons Absolutely. They have been hn a paid
:47:03. > :47:08.position and have failed dramatically. If they have let them
:47:09. > :47:16.down on a criminal level, wd need to go for the prosecutions. Thdy should
:47:17. > :47:22.be hauled before the courts. This is about people who kndw
:47:23. > :47:25.indirectly as well as directly and that includes politicians. Hf you
:47:26. > :47:31.knew about this, you have to put your hand up and say I did nothing
:47:32. > :47:35.about it and you are actually, when you don't do anything about a
:47:36. > :47:41.situation, whether it is ond child or 1400, you are as bad as the
:47:42. > :47:46.perpetrators. You have got to get yourself together. What has happened
:47:47. > :47:50.there is that nobody has had the backbone to say that I don't care
:47:51. > :47:52.about logical correctness or my party, I am going to do what is
:47:53. > :47:58.right. I would like to say that thd
:47:59. > :47:59.front`line staff did do that and it was the middle management that was
:48:00. > :49:42.blocking them. Labour Party have to be accountable
:49:43. > :49:48.for what has happened. To md, the arts to change. If you are ` Labour
:49:49. > :49:54.member in Rotherham, you should tear your card up. They should bd called
:49:55. > :49:59.the paedophile protection p`rty That is how it has carried on.
:50:00. > :50:07.That is not helpful. Jane, four of the councillors we
:50:08. > :50:13.have right now, for the UKIP councillors were there at the time.
:50:14. > :50:16.One was on the police Assochation. And in 2000 and in 2005 votdd not to
:50:17. > :50:22.have child protection measures. You know what happened to them? One
:50:23. > :50:27.of them was in Holland when that Ford was held and the other was told
:50:28. > :50:32.that it was not in the benefit of the investigation and would hinder
:50:33. > :50:40.it if he was to push the knowledge she had any further. `` votd was
:50:41. > :50:43.held. Do they come under the director and
:50:44. > :50:49.direct accountability then? They tried to do things unthl they
:50:50. > :50:52.were told to shut up. So under your definition thdy should
:50:53. > :51:03.go. I would not expect the colotr of
:51:04. > :51:06.somebody's skin to be important and also I don't think we should get
:51:07. > :51:12.into party politics. It is important.
:51:13. > :51:15.This has been going on and there is clearly a problem with the reporting
:51:16. > :51:21.of these cases and action bding taken. That is why I am glad there
:51:22. > :51:24.is no this national independent investigation into what happened so
:51:25. > :51:28.that we can try and rebuild that trust and the confidence in it so
:51:29. > :51:40.that any victims now, and a pastor in the future, can feel thex have
:51:41. > :51:47.their security. `` in the p`st. The mother in the film said this has
:51:48. > :51:49.put the rot into Rotherham. All people think your town is now a
:51:50. > :51:56.rotten borough? I understand that. We need to get
:51:57. > :52:00.prosecutions for those 1400 and think there are probably other
:52:01. > :52:05.people who haven't come forward Yesterday, I met with faith leaders
:52:06. > :52:11.and front`line staff and we are trying to find ways to rebuhld the
:52:12. > :52:17.town but it will be a slow process. The thing that frustrates md most is
:52:18. > :52:26.that now, only in the last xear we do have a strong sexual exploitation
:52:27. > :52:30.team, but the credibility of that team that is trying to make amends
:52:31. > :52:38.and get justice for these tdam is just not credible.
:52:39. > :52:43.I you going to try and play politics in the lead up to the electhon?
:52:44. > :52:49.I am not because the way forward will be the youth in Rotherham. That
:52:50. > :52:53.has to be a cross`party thing where everybody works together to make
:52:54. > :52:59.that happen and make sure there is some cohesion. The other thhng you
:53:00. > :53:02.have got to stress is that this is not every community in Rothdrham
:53:03. > :53:07.where there is a problem and it is not individual communities where
:53:08. > :53:12.there is a problem. Later n`med percent of people in Rotherham are
:53:13. > :53:24.good. There are a small percentage of people who are abusing the system
:53:25. > :53:29.and the council. `` 99%. We must move on because whatever the
:53:30. > :53:33.result of thirsty's referendum on Scottish independence, the political
:53:34. > :53:36.landscape of the whole of the native kingdom looks set to change. The
:53:37. > :53:43.campaign north of the border has led to fresh calls for more powdrs to be
:53:44. > :53:55.devolved to English regions, none more so than in own county.
:53:56. > :54:07.How much to the 5 million pdople who live here feel they are Yorkshire
:54:08. > :54:08.first. In an online survey published by Huddersfield University, the
:54:09. > :54:19.question was asked. Just over 42% said they werd more
:54:20. > :54:28.Yorkshire than English. Thex were then asked...
:54:29. > :54:36.More than 62% say they want that to happen. That begs the questhon,
:54:37. > :54:45.should there be more devolvdd power to Yorkshire? A huge majority said
:54:46. > :54:48.yes. More power for choosing her things like tax payers monex should
:54:49. > :54:52.be spent. A people from Cornwall have been
:54:53. > :54:56.given special minority statts recently, winning any legislation
:54:57. > :55:01.that might impact on the minorities will have to be borne in mind.
:55:02. > :55:04.People from Yorkshire feel they have two be given special minority as
:55:05. > :55:12.well? Devolution yes but does that extends
:55:13. > :55:18.to calls for independence? No. Less than one third thought it w`s a
:55:19. > :55:27.practical proposition. That is the Scottish debate having an effect?
:55:28. > :55:38.The answer was yes, although only just. Politicians feel that if there
:55:39. > :55:41.are to be more powers devolved to Yorkshire and the North of Dngland,
:55:42. > :55:45.now is the time to push for them. This was deputy prime ministers Nick
:55:46. > :55:51.Clegg in Sheffield on Fridax. I think more power on transport
:55:52. > :55:58.investment, skills, welfare programmes that help people into
:55:59. > :56:03.work. More power about how xou raise money and spend it. How the mood has
:56:04. > :56:06.changed is that people are thinking are we devolving more power to
:56:07. > :56:10.Scotland as we should, surely great cities like this should havd more
:56:11. > :56:14.power to stand on their own two feet as well.
:56:15. > :56:18.Isn't it inevitable we will now be seeing some regional governlent
:56:19. > :56:28.given this growing sense of Yorkshire and as `` feelings of
:56:29. > :56:32.being from Yorkshire. Whether we want to see it on a
:56:33. > :56:41.regional basis, I do not know. You could be sucking up power from local
:56:42. > :56:50.communities. And glad we have had City Deals.
:56:51. > :56:58.It's giving power to men behind closed doors.
:56:59. > :57:01.Leeds City Council will havd different priorities to Bradford
:57:02. > :57:08.City Council and exactly thd same with Wakefield. I think those
:57:09. > :57:12.individual councils are much better placed to put in the policids in the
:57:13. > :57:15.scheme is that they want to grow their local economy and bring in the
:57:16. > :57:18.transport infrastructure th`t they need to support that.
:57:19. > :57:24.Sarah Champion, would you lhke to see the model pitched ten ydars ago
:57:25. > :57:29.resurrected, for regional government?
:57:30. > :57:34.We have committed 30 billion to go down into the regions. I he`r what
:57:35. > :57:38.Stuart is saying but I do think you need regional oversight, for example
:57:39. > :57:45.for transport. You need to know that a bus won't stop at a town dnd and
:57:46. > :57:51.there will be nowhere to connect to. Also business rates that ard raised
:57:52. > :57:55.in your area should stay in your area. People on the ground know what
:57:56. > :57:58.needs doing. Nigel Farage campaigning in Scotland
:57:59. > :58:05.the other day said we want ` system of federal UK with regional power.
:58:06. > :58:15.That sounds like a European model. I don't like that word federalism.
:58:16. > :58:20.Nick Clegg sounded like he was reading of the UKIP manifesto
:58:21. > :58:25.because we are for devolution of power to local people. We do agree
:58:26. > :58:30.with that. Local government and local power for the people.
:58:31. > :58:34.I do agree with Sarah about the transport. We are seeing th`t in
:58:35. > :58:36.Yorkshire. You are also seeing fares go up in
:58:37. > :58:42.peak time. We have put investment in and there
:58:43. > :58:48.hasn't been significant invdstment for over 30 years. We all know
:58:49. > :58:54.that. We all now live in is that needs desperate investment. That
:58:55. > :59:00.money won't come from nowhere. It has gone to HS2.
:59:01. > :59:09.The West Yorkshire integratdd transport scheme is bringing
:59:10. > :59:15.millions of pounds that loc`l people are making decisions on.
:59:16. > :59:22.Sarah Champion, at the very least after Thursday, what Scotland squad
:59:23. > :59:26.to get as devo max. Will we see an end to Labour MPs in Scotland voting
:59:27. > :59:31.on issues that only affect Dngland? I haven't got a clue to be puite
:59:32. > :59:38.honest. I think it is so incredibly tight. Labour and me person`lly we
:59:39. > :59:41.want to stay together because we are so much stronger that way.
:59:42. > :59:46.What will actually happen I do not know. What is your prediction?
:59:47. > :59:55.I think we will stay united and it will be by a whisker.
:59:56. > :59:59.Very similar. 48 years, 52 now. `` no.
:00:00. > :00:02.I think that is about right. But I hope it is bigger because of that is
:00:03. > :00:08.closed and Alex Salmond will be back.
:00:09. > :00:10.If it is yes, will you come back in a kilt.
:00:11. > :00:11.That would be the first timd I have worn one.
:00:12. > :00:17.Thank London was 150 years ago, otherwise
:00:18. > :00:22.we would have a dirty River Thames. Andrew, back to you.
:00:23. > :00:27.Can the No campaign still pull it off?
:00:28. > :00:31.And even if they do is the whole of the UK now on the brink
:00:32. > :00:48.I'm joined now by John McTernan former adviser to Gordon Brown
:00:49. > :00:51.and Tony Blair, Alex Bell, former Head of Policy for the SNP
:00:52. > :00:53.and Lindsay McIntosh, the Times Scottish Political Editor
:00:54. > :00:59.And I'm delighted that Tommy and George have stayed too.
:01:00. > :01:08.No fighting has broken out either. Where
:01:09. > :01:08.No fighting has broken out either. have three full days to go
:01:09. > :01:11.No fighting has broken out either. polling day. What is the state of
:01:12. > :01:19.play? I think the poll of polls is accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital
:01:20. > :01:23.is to bring the undecided voters in, and they properly have about
:01:24. > :01:26.500,000. I think there are a lot of undecided people. I think they know
:01:27. > :01:32.which way they are leaning, but they haven't jumped. The hope of the no
:01:33. > :01:38.campaign is that they will go for the status quo on Thursday. How do
:01:39. > :01:42.you assess the state of the campaign now? The crucial thing is the big
:01:43. > :01:51.swing. The swing has come towards yes, so will the momentum carry it
:01:52. > :01:55.over the line? I will think it does, because it is an antiestablishment
:01:56. > :02:00.swell, and its people responding to standard Western as the politicians
:02:01. > :02:05.and saying that they want a new way -- Westminster politicians. I think
:02:06. > :02:09.that yes will sneak it. A referendum can be more important than a general
:02:10. > :02:14.election, and the Yes campaign have had the momentum. This was the week
:02:15. > :02:18.the momentum stopped. We started the week looking as though yes were
:02:19. > :02:21.going into the lead and then it stopped and most of the recent polls
:02:22. > :02:27.show a distinct lead for the no campaign. A distinct lead? It is one
:02:28. > :02:32.or two points. It is six in one poll, two in another, aiding
:02:33. > :02:36.another. The poll of polls is a good way of measuring, and is it
:02:37. > :02:40.statistically Nick -- nip and tuck? It is the week the momentum stopped.
:02:41. > :02:44.About a fifth of the electorate That will be a quarter of the
:02:45. > :02:48.turnout have voted already, by postal vote, and they are running
:02:49. > :02:54.very strongly towards no, so there is a whole bank of votes there. The
:02:55. > :02:57.postal votes are skewed to the over 60s, and that is the demographic
:02:58. > :03:03.that the Yes campaign have had the biggest trouble with. Absolutely,
:03:04. > :03:07.the Yes campaign faced a challenge amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and
:03:08. > :03:12.always based challenge with the older voters. Trust me, I was the
:03:13. > :03:17.decision the day the civil servants made it possible for the 16 to
:03:18. > :03:20.18-year-olds to vote, and we said there was a victory for the no
:03:21. > :03:27.campaign in that alone. The young tend to be conservative by nature. I
:03:28. > :03:35.think again that to say that the momentum has stopped when you had a
:03:36. > :03:39.20 point lead, this is a referendum whether people will speak and they
:03:40. > :03:44.will be heard. Except for the one poll which needs a huge health
:03:45. > :03:47.warning because of the size of the sample, the momentum is
:03:48. > :03:52.unquestionably all the way through August is going in the direction of
:03:53. > :03:58.yes. It hasn't quite continue to get to the 55/45 four yes that Alex
:03:59. > :04:02.Salmond thinks will be the result. I would agree with John. This was the
:04:03. > :04:08.momentum stalled. We saw the three leaders coming up, and that kept
:04:09. > :04:12.Alex Salmond off the front pages on the television and we had a raft of
:04:13. > :04:14.economic warnings which, although they were dismissed as
:04:15. > :04:19.scaremongering, they will have had a lot of traction with voters. What
:04:20. > :04:25.does the no campaign have to do in the final three days? It has to
:04:26. > :04:29.focus on the undecided, relentlessly. It has to do stick to
:04:30. > :04:32.the question of risk and keep pushing back on Alex Salmond to say
:04:33. > :04:37.it doesn't matter if the banks leave, it will all be all right on
:04:38. > :04:40.the night. The huge question amongst the undecided voters is about the
:04:41. > :04:46.economy. It is about jobs and currency, about business. That risk
:04:47. > :04:49.is what will crystallise in the ballot box on Thursday and that has
:04:50. > :04:54.to be the focus. What does the Yes campaign have to do? It has to drive
:04:55. > :04:58.home that the swing to the Yes campaign is motivated by people who
:04:59. > :05:01.want a different politics. They have decided amongst themselves that they
:05:02. > :05:06.want to change Scotland. The unfortunate thing is, even though
:05:07. > :05:09.the no campaign has had the chance to put up after proposals, they have
:05:10. > :05:13.failed. The Scottish people want their powers were a purpose and they
:05:14. > :05:17.say that only the Yes campaign can deliver that. There will be two days
:05:18. > :05:20.of relentless campaigning from today, Monday and Tuesday, then the
:05:21. > :05:26.media, the newspapers, including your own, will come out with the
:05:27. > :05:31.final poll, the ones that will be the closest to the day that the
:05:32. > :05:34.Scots actually go and vote. I think we will see more polling this week,
:05:35. > :05:38.but what is interesting is the extent to which the pollsters are
:05:39. > :05:41.picking up what is going on in the street. We know we have a huge
:05:42. > :05:46.number of voters who have never voted before and are not engage with
:05:47. > :05:50.politics, so what will they do? The third candidate in the election if
:05:51. > :05:53.I can would in this way, are the polls. They might have a lot of
:05:54. > :05:57.questions to answer on Friday morning. We were talking earlier
:05:58. > :06:02.with George and Tommy about the Labour Party's consequences in all
:06:03. > :06:06.of this. Gordon Brown, of course, has had a bit of a second coming as
:06:07. > :06:09.a result of this referendum. I just want to play a clip of Gordon Brown
:06:10. > :06:20.during the campaign and get a reaction. And I say this to Alex
:06:21. > :06:23.Salmond himself. Up until today I am outside front line politics. If he
:06:24. > :06:27.continues to peddle this deception, that the Scottish Parliament under
:06:28. > :06:31.his leadership, and he cannot do anything to improve the health
:06:32. > :06:38.service until he has a separate state, then I will want to join Joe
:06:39. > :06:42.Hanlon want in and securing the return of a Labour government as
:06:43. > :06:49.quickly as possible -- Johann Lamont. That was seen by some people
:06:50. > :06:52.as Gordon Brown implying he might stand for the Scottish Parliament.
:06:53. > :06:59.Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon Brown the saviour of Scottish
:07:00. > :07:02.Labour? I did a double black the other night -- double act with him
:07:03. > :07:06.the other night, and I must say he was a big beast all over again. He
:07:07. > :07:12.crossed the stage Meli dealt with the audience brilliantly. He has a
:07:13. > :07:16.certain presence, Gordon Brown, but he would really have to reinvent
:07:17. > :07:22.himself quite considerably. He is capable of doing, but the man who
:07:23. > :07:25.was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton, who pulled together the original red
:07:26. > :07:30.paper on Scotland, he would have to be that Gordon Brown rather than the
:07:31. > :07:34.Gordon Brown of some more melancholy events later. Tommy, you have both
:07:35. > :07:38.been critical of the state of the Scottish Labour Party. Rather than
:07:39. > :07:41.looking to Gordon Brown, which might be an interim solution, doesn't
:07:42. > :07:46.Scottish Labour have to find a new generation of people to reignite it?
:07:47. > :07:51.What George and I are agreed on and you have to remember this question
:07:52. > :07:53.of independence see us disagreeing passionately, and in most other
:07:54. > :07:57.things we find ourselves in agreement, one thing is clear,
:07:58. > :08:04.Scottish Labour is finished. They have lost the heart and soul of
:08:05. > :08:07.Scotland. The fact that we are discussing with four days to go an
:08:08. > :08:12.independence referendum that is neck and neck, Labour have failed
:08:13. > :08:15.miserably, absolutely miserably because they have given up
:08:16. > :08:18.everything they stood for. The SNP has picked it up. They have just
:08:19. > :10:05.taken on the bank has picked it up. They have just
:10:06. > :10:12.that because they are locked in a constitutional row. It is the plan
:10:13. > :10:15.of the Nationalists to fight the first Scottish general election as
:10:16. > :10:18.an independent nation as a nationalist party with its own
:10:19. > :10:23.programme. You don't all go your own way. Why don't you do that? You have
:10:24. > :10:29.more on your main reason to be, so why not go, left, right and centre
:10:30. > :10:32.question you are presuming you don't go the one-way. I do not see the
:10:33. > :10:37.function of the SNP after the yes vote. I think it is clear that there
:10:38. > :10:41.is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon an SNP which attracts votes from the
:10:42. > :10:44.left and that is the one for me Whether that is called the SNP or
:10:45. > :10:49.something else, I don't know. I think the assumption that we are
:10:50. > :10:57.going into a mirror of old politics in a new world is just fundamentally
:10:58. > :11:00.flawed. That is interesting. Let's just bring in the English
:11:01. > :11:05.dimensional. In many ways, England has not spoken in this referendum
:11:06. > :11:08.campaign. Whether it is yes or no, it will, and to give you a flavour
:11:09. > :11:13.of what some in England might be thinking was saying, here is a clip
:11:14. > :11:18.from John Redwood. We are fed up with this lopsided devolution, this
:11:19. > :11:20.unfair devolution. Scotland gets first-class Devolution, Wales gets
:11:21. > :11:24.second-class devolution and England gets nothing. If Wales wants the
:11:25. > :11:29.same as us, they should have it and then there would be commonality so
:11:30. > :11:32.we could discuss and decide in our own countries, in our own assemblies
:11:33. > :11:40.in Parliament, all those things that are devolved. George, it was clear
:11:41. > :11:41.that if Scotland voted yes for independence it has huge
:11:42. > :11:47.implications for England than the UK, but it's also clear particularly
:11:48. > :11:51.after Gordon Brown's intervention, even if it is no, it has huge
:11:52. > :11:55.applications. You are, I suggest, agreeing with John Redwood that
:11:56. > :12:00.there should be an English boys It would be a step too far for me to
:12:01. > :12:05.agree with him -- English voice I appreciate I might have gone out on
:12:06. > :12:10.a limb. He is the voice of Mars the Balkan from Mars. My own
:12:11. > :12:15.constituents in Bradford are asking, what about us? All these things
:12:16. > :12:19.being done, all the extra mile is being travel to Scotland, what about
:12:20. > :12:25.us? Labour would be well advised to adjust quickly on this so that the
:12:26. > :12:31.John Redwood types do not steal the show. England has yes to use -- yet
:12:32. > :12:35.to speak. It's interesting when you hear a Labour backbencher in
:12:36. > :12:41.Scotland talk about a command paper. He is not in government. Gordon
:12:42. > :12:43.Brown is going round Scotland promising things and he has
:12:44. > :12:49.absolutely no chance of delivering them. The MPs in England will say,
:12:50. > :12:52.hey, what are you talking about We have never been discussed with that?
:12:53. > :12:57.We have not agreed with that. The only way people in Scotland will get
:12:58. > :13:03.the powers they deserve is by voting yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you
:13:04. > :13:08.think it is 60/40. I will stick with it, because we have an unprecedented
:13:09. > :13:10.election. 97% of Scotland is registered to vote. The working
:13:11. > :13:19.class will vote in numbers never voted before. George? 55/45 for our
:13:20. > :13:23.side. And if there is a rogue poll, the tek Levesley polled --
:13:24. > :13:27.technically flawed poll, which should not be published because it
:13:28. > :13:30.is so flawed, then we would be stretching towards what I am
:13:31. > :13:36.predicting already. I think in the last few days we will reach that.
:13:37. > :13:40.Come on. If the no campaign can get the silent majority out, they will
:13:41. > :13:46.edge it. You think they will win, but how much? They cannot give up in
:13:47. > :13:52.a second, a moment or a mile. It is that close. It will be won by the
:13:53. > :14:03.passionate view. I will go for a narrow yes victory. I'm the George,
:14:04. > :14:06.53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. -- I am with George. I will leave you
:14:07. > :14:07.to argue about that later. Thank you for being with us on the special
:14:08. > :14:10.Sunday politics from Edinburgh. That's all from us today
:14:11. > :14:12.in Scotland. Don't forget the Daily Politics will
:14:13. > :14:14.have continuing coverage of the referendum campaign all this
:14:15. > :14:17.week on BBC2 at midday. On Thursday night Huw Edwards will
:14:18. > :14:20.be in Glasgow and I will be in London to bring you live coverage
:14:21. > :14:24.of the results on BBC1 from 10. 0 pm on a historic night for Scotland
:14:25. > :14:27.and the rest of the United Kingdom. And I'll be back next Sunday
:14:28. > :14:30.when we're live from the Labour Unless, of course, the referendum
:14:31. > :14:37.result is so tumultuous even the Remember if it's Sunday,
:14:38. > :14:43.it's the Sunday Politics.