:00:09. > :00:12.Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering
:00:13. > :00:14.for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what
:00:15. > :00:53.the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for
:00:54. > :00:58.Scotland's decision to vote 'no means more powers heading north
:00:59. > :01:06.But what about Home Rule for England?
:01:07. > :01:11.Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells
:01:12. > :01:16.us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've
:01:17. > :01:22.got an exclusive survey of what the people who want to be
:01:23. > :01:24.On the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire,
:01:25. > :01:28.as Scotland votes to remain in the UK, we examine calls for England to
:01:29. > :01:45.powers and more freedom to spend. But what is the next devolution step
:01:46. > :01:48.for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the
:01:49. > :01:53.business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt,
:01:54. > :01:58.Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to
:01:59. > :02:04.other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived,
:02:05. > :02:07.but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and
:02:08. > :02:10.enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when
:02:11. > :02:17.it comes to public spending, which has MPs on both sides of the Commons
:02:18. > :02:21.of in arms. The Scottish question has been answered for now. Suddenly,
:02:22. > :02:31.the English question takes centre stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It
:02:32. > :02:35.has a grubby feel, when that vow was put to the Scottish people, that
:02:36. > :02:41.they hoped would swing the vote there was nothing about English only
:02:42. > :02:45.votes. It was unconditional? The Tory proposal did talk very core
:02:46. > :02:48.justly about looking at the proposals by a former clerk of the
:02:49. > :02:57.House of Commons that looked at this issue. That was very cautious. -
:02:58. > :02:59.cautiously. These proposals will not get through Westminster unless David
:03:00. > :03:03.Cameron addresses the English-only issue. You look at people like Chris
:03:04. > :03:07.Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph. Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr
:03:08. > :03:11.Show said you could not have a link between what you are giving Holyrood
:03:12. > :03:21.and English-only MPs. Back on says, is welshing on the deal. -- comic he
:03:22. > :03:28.They were furious that he gave away these tax powers and inscribed the
:03:29. > :03:37.Barnett formula. They said they weren't going to vote for it. It is
:03:38. > :03:40.a shameless piece of opportunism. Now they can say that Labour are the
:03:41. > :03:44.ones that don't trust you and don't want to give you more powers. He
:03:45. > :03:48.knows it is going to be a tight timetable. The idea of getting a
:03:49. > :03:52.draft of this out by Burns Night, most people would say, given they
:03:53. > :03:55.had six years to set up Scottish parliament, the idea we will solve
:03:56. > :04:03.these huge constitutional questions in four months is absurd. But they
:04:04. > :04:08.don't care about the constitutional questions, the one they care about
:04:09. > :04:12.is English votes? There is a simple reason they won that. If you look at
:04:13. > :04:17.the MPs in England alone, the Tories have a majority of 59, an
:04:18. > :04:20.overwhelming bias, and if you strip out Wales Scotland and Northern
:04:21. > :04:24.Ireland, so this has become a partisan issue. The question is
:04:25. > :04:29.whether David Cameron can follow through on the promise. He said he
:04:30. > :04:35.would link the two Scottish powers, but it's not clear you will get
:04:36. > :04:39.either before the general election. It's not but the purpose is to cause
:04:40. > :04:45.Labour Party discomfort, and it is. You can see with date -- Ed Miliband
:04:46. > :04:48.this morning, they find it very hard to answer the question, why
:04:49. > :04:53.shouldn't there be English votes for English laws? Ed Miliband this
:04:54. > :04:59.morning was saying how London MPs get to vote on London transport and
:05:00. > :05:02.English MPs don't outside of London and it is confusing, but Labour is
:05:03. > :05:07.in a difficult position. They were before the Prime Minister made his
:05:08. > :05:11.announcement. The yes side triumphed in Glasgow, the largest city in
:05:12. > :05:14.Scotland, a Labour heartland, and the Prime Minister is saying that if
:05:15. > :05:18.Labour don't agree to this by the time of the general election, he is
:05:19. > :05:22.handing a gift to the SNP, that that would be the party that the natural
:05:23. > :05:27.Labour voters would vote for to see off the plan. It's not just Tory
:05:28. > :05:30.backbenchers. There are Labour backbenchers saying there should be
:05:31. > :05:33.in which bodes for English laws Even people in the Shadow Cabinet
:05:34. > :05:40.think it is right. The cases unarguable. If you say her chewing a
:05:41. > :05:43.partisan way, you can't sell it to the country. Ed Miliband is on
:05:44. > :05:50.course to have a majority of about 20, and you take the 40 English MPs,
:05:51. > :05:54.and he hasn't got it. This is a coalition government where the
:05:55. > :05:58.Conservatives haven't got really to be in charge, they have put in
:05:59. > :06:02.sweeping laws. Labour should probably take the bullet on this
:06:03. > :06:09.one. Let's leave it for the moment. But don't go away. As they struggle
:06:10. > :06:12.to keep the United Kingdom in one piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband
:06:13. > :06:13.and Nick Clegg promised to keep something called the Barnett
:06:14. > :06:15.Formula. It wasn't invented in Barnet,
:06:16. > :06:18.but by man called Joel Barnett. And it's how
:06:19. > :06:21.the UK government decides how much public money to spend in Scotland,
:06:22. > :06:23.Wales and Northern Ireland. It's controversial,
:06:24. > :06:25.because it's led to public spending being typically 20% higher
:06:26. > :06:27.in Scotland than in England. Well, some English MPs
:06:28. > :06:29.aren't happy about that. I'm joined now by the
:06:30. > :06:42.Tory MP Dominic Raab. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How
:06:43. > :06:46.can the Prime Minister scrap the Barnett Formula when he has just
:06:47. > :06:52.about to keep it on the front page of a major Scottish newspaper? If we
:06:53. > :06:55.are going to see financial devolution to Scotland, more powers
:06:56. > :06:58.of tax and spend, it's impossible not to look at the impact on the
:06:59. > :07:03.wider union, and there have been promises made to the Scottish and we
:07:04. > :07:06.should do our best to deliver them, but there have been promises made to
:07:07. > :07:10.the English, Welsh and Northern Irish. If you look at the Barnett
:07:11. > :07:14.Formula which allocates revenue across the UK, it is massively
:07:15. > :07:18.prejudicial to those other parts. We have double the number of ambulance
:07:19. > :07:22.staff and nurses compared to England. The regional breakdown is
:07:23. > :07:26.more stark with double the amount spent on social housing in Scotland
:07:27. > :07:29.than in Yorkshire and the North West and the Midlands. The Welsh do very
:07:30. > :07:33.poorly on social services for the elderly. What are we saying? That
:07:34. > :07:39.they need our children, patients and the elderly are worth less than the
:07:40. > :07:44.Scots? That's not the way to have a sustainable solution. I understand
:07:45. > :07:47.the distribution impact of the Barnett Formula, but Westminster
:07:48. > :07:52.politicians are already held in contempt by a lot of people and to
:07:53. > :07:58.rat on such a public pledge would confirm their worst fears. Your
:07:59. > :08:02.leader would have secured the union on a false prospectus. First of
:08:03. > :08:07.all, it's clear from the Ashcroft poll that the offer made in the
:08:08. > :08:10.Scottish newspaper had zero effect and if anything was
:08:11. > :08:12.counter-productive to the overall result because two thirds of swing
:08:13. > :08:17.voters in the last few days voted for independence. But we can't keep
:08:18. > :08:22.proceeding without looking at the promises made to the English. We
:08:23. > :08:27.said in the referendum that we would have English laws -- English votes
:08:28. > :08:29.on English issues. The Liberal Democrats, in their manifesto,
:08:30. > :08:34.pledged to scrap the Barnett Formula. We have to reconcile all of
:08:35. > :08:38.the promises to all parts of the UK, and Alex Salmond talks about a
:08:39. > :08:43.Westminster stitch up, but what he's trying to do is, with gross double
:08:44. > :08:49.standards, is in French stitch up in rapid time, which would be grossly
:08:50. > :08:55.unfair to the rest of the rest of UK -- is contrive stitch up. What is
:08:56. > :09:01.unfair about the current spending formula? The extra money Scotland
:09:02. > :09:06.gets from Barnet, is covered by the oil revenues it sends to London
:09:07. > :09:08.Scotland is only getting back on spending what it pays in tax. There
:09:09. > :09:16.is no analysis out there that suggests it is the same amount.
:09:17. > :09:21.Having voted to stay in the UK. Let me give you the figures. Last year
:09:22. > :09:29.revenues were 4.5 billion, and the Barnett Formula was worth 4.5
:09:30. > :09:32.billion to Scotland. It is awash. A huge amount of British taxpayer
:09:33. > :09:36.investment has gone into extracting North Sea oil, and if we move to a
:09:37. > :09:39.more federal system, we would need to look at things like the
:09:40. > :09:43.allocation of resources, but the Barnett Formula has been lambasted
:09:44. > :09:48.as a national embarrassment and grossly unfair by its Labour Party
:09:49. > :09:53.architect, Lord Barnett. So what we need is to change this mechanism so
:09:54. > :09:57.it is based on need. The irony is, when the Scots allocate Avenue to
:09:58. > :10:00.the -- revenue to their local authorities, it's done on a needs
:10:01. > :10:05.basis, and what is good for Scotland must be good for the rest of
:10:06. > :10:09.Britain. One final question. The Prime Minister is now making his
:10:10. > :10:13.promise of more home rule for Scotland conditional on English
:10:14. > :10:17.votes for English laws. Why didn't he spell out the condition when he
:10:18. > :10:21.made his bow to the Scottish people? Why has this condition been tacked
:10:22. > :10:27.on by the Prime Minister? In the heat of the referendum debate lots
:10:28. > :10:31.of things were said, but the truth is that Parliament must also look at
:10:32. > :10:36.this and make its views known, and English MPs as well. You will find
:10:37. > :10:39.that conservative as well as a lot of Labour MPs would say, we cannot
:10:40. > :10:45.just rush through a deal that is unsustainable. It has to be good for
:10:46. > :10:48.all parts of Britain. Yes, we should deliver on our promises for more
:10:49. > :10:51.devolution to Scotland, but let s deliver on promises to be English,
:10:52. > :10:55.and Northern Irish. Why are they locked out of the debate? Let's
:10:56. > :10:58.leave it there. Thank you for joining us.
:10:59. > :11:00.The man responsible for taking Scottish nationalism from
:11:01. > :11:02.the political fringes to within touching distance of victory, Alex
:11:03. > :11:05.Salmond, has a flair for dramatic announcements, and he gave us
:11:06. > :11:07.another on Friday when he revealed he's to stand
:11:08. > :11:12.Friends and foes have paid tribute to his extraordinary career.
:11:13. > :11:14.In a moment I'll be speaking to Alex Salmond,
:11:15. > :11:17.but first here's Adam Fleming with the story of the vote that broke
:11:18. > :11:39.The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole place converted into a studio for
:11:40. > :11:42.Scotland's big night. You know what you need for big events, big
:11:43. > :11:46.screens, and there are loads of them here. That one is three stories
:11:47. > :11:50.high, and this is the one Jeremy Vine uses for his graphics. The
:11:51. > :11:55.other thing that is massive is the turnout in the referendum, it is
:11:56. > :12:00.enormous. It was around 85% of the electorate, that is 4 million ballot
:12:01. > :12:12.papers. First to declare Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 1 ,000
:12:13. > :12:18.and 36. The first Noel of the night, and there were plenty more. -- the
:12:19. > :12:21.first no vote. The better together campaigners were over the moon, like
:12:22. > :12:27.Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in 100 different towns. I don't want to
:12:28. > :12:37.sound schmaltzy, but it makes you think more of Scotland. It makes you
:12:38. > :12:39.small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around five a.m., the Yes campaign
:12:40. > :12:46.applauded as they won Scotland's biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went
:12:47. > :12:49.their way as well, but just for areas out of 32 opted for
:12:50. > :12:54.independence. How many copies have you had? This is my second cup of
:12:55. > :12:58.tea on the morning -- how many copies. He was enjoying the
:12:59. > :13:04.refreshments on offer, but the yes campaigners were not in a happy
:13:05. > :13:08.place. We are in the bowels of one of the parts of the British
:13:09. > :13:13.establishment that, I've got to say, has probably done its job in this
:13:14. > :13:18.referendum, because I think the BBC has been critical in shoring up the
:13:19. > :13:23.establishment and have supported the no campaign as best as they could.
:13:24. > :13:28.But there was no arguing with the numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC
:13:29. > :13:34.called it. Scotland has voted no in this referendum on independence The
:13:35. > :13:36.result, in Fife, has taken the no campaign over the line and the
:13:37. > :13:43.official result of this referendum is a no. There we go, on a screen
:13:44. > :13:48.three stories high, Scotland has said no to independence. As soon as
:13:49. > :13:52.the newsprint was driving north of the border, the focus shifted south
:13:53. > :13:57.as the Prime Minister pledged more devolution for Scotland but only if
:13:58. > :13:59.it happened everywhere else as well. Just as Scotland will vote
:14:00. > :14:04.separately in the Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax,
:14:05. > :14:08.spending on welfare, so to England, as well as Wales and Northern
:14:09. > :14:13.Ireland, should be able to vote on these issues, and all this must take
:14:14. > :14:18.place in tandem with and at the same pace as the settlement for Scotland.
:14:19. > :14:27.It began to dawn on us all that we might end up doing this again. See
:14:28. > :14:30.you for an English referendum soon? Northern Ireland. There could be
:14:31. > :14:37.another one in Scotland. But not next weekend? Give me a break. There
:14:38. > :14:42.was no break for Nick, because Alex Salmond came up with one last twist,
:14:43. > :14:47.his resignation was as leader, my time is nearly over. But the
:14:48. > :14:54.Scotland, the campaign continues, and the dream shall never die. So,
:14:55. > :14:56.the referendum settled, the Constitution in flux, and a leader
:14:57. > :15:06.gone. All in a night work. Alex Salmond is to stand down as
:15:07. > :15:11.First Minister of Scotland. He shows no signs of going quietly. Last
:15:12. > :15:15.night, I spoke to the SNP leader in Aberdeen and began by asking him if
:15:16. > :15:20.it was always his intention to resign if he lost the referendum. I
:15:21. > :15:23.certainly have thought about it Andrew. But for most of the
:15:24. > :15:29.referendum campaign I thought we were going to win. So, I was...
:15:30. > :15:33.Yeah, maybe a few months back I considered it. But I only finally
:15:34. > :15:41.made up my mind on Friday lunch time. Did you agonise over the
:15:42. > :15:51.decision to stand down? I'm not really an agonising person. When you
:15:52. > :15:56.get beaten in a referendum, you have to consider standing down as a real
:15:57. > :16:00.possibility. Taking responsibility and politics has gone out of fashion
:16:01. > :16:05.but there is an aspect, if you need a campaign, and I was the leader of
:16:06. > :16:09.the Yes Campaign, and you don't win, you have to contemplate if you are
:16:10. > :16:12.the best person to lead future political campaigns. In my
:16:13. > :16:16.judgement, it was time for the SNP and the broader yes movement, the
:16:17. > :16:21.National movement of Scotland, they would benefit from new leadership.
:16:22. > :16:25.In your heart of hearts, through the campaign, as referendum on day
:16:26. > :16:31.approached, you did think you were going to win? Yes, I did. I thought
:16:32. > :16:39.for most of the last month of the campaign, we were in with a real
:16:40. > :16:42.chance. In the last week I thought we had pulled ahead. I thought the
:16:43. > :16:48.decisive aspect wasn't so much the fear mongering, the scaremongering,
:16:49. > :16:51.the kitchen sink being thrown at Scotland by orchestration from
:16:52. > :16:55.Downing Street, I thought the real thing was the pledge, the vow, the
:16:56. > :17:00.offer of something else. A lot of people that had been moving across
:17:01. > :17:03.to independence saw within that a reason to say, well, we can get
:17:04. > :17:11.something anyway without the perceived risks that were being
:17:12. > :17:18.festooned upon them. You were only five points away from your dream.
:17:19. > :17:22.You won Scotland's largest city There is now the prospect of more
:17:23. > :17:29.power. Why not stay and be an enhanced First Minister? Well, it is
:17:30. > :17:33.a good phrase. I'm not going away, though. I'm still going to be part
:17:34. > :17:37.of the political process. In Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire
:17:38. > :17:42.wish to keep electing me, that is what I will do. But I don't have to
:17:43. > :17:46.be First Minister of Scotland, leader of the Yes Campaign, to see
:17:47. > :17:52.that achieved. The SNP is a strong and powerful leadership team. There
:17:53. > :17:55.are a number of people that would do a fantastic job as leader of the
:17:56. > :18:02.party and First Minister. I've been leader of the party for the last 24
:18:03. > :18:05.years, I think it is time to give somebody else a shot. There are many
:18:06. > :18:09.able-bodied people that will do that well. -- many able people that will
:18:10. > :18:17.do that well. I'm still part of the national movement, arguing to take
:18:18. > :18:20.this forward. I think you are right, the question, one of the irony is
:18:21. > :18:24.developing so quickly after the referendum, it might be those that
:18:25. > :18:30.lost on Thursday end up as the political winners and those that won
:18:31. > :18:34.end up as the losers. When we met just for the vote, a couple of days
:18:35. > :18:38.before the vote, you said to me that there was very little you would
:18:39. > :18:45.change about the campaign strategy. Is that still your view? Yes. There
:18:46. > :18:50.are one or two things, like any campaign, there is no such thing as
:18:51. > :18:55.a pitcher campaign. I would refer not to dwell on such things. I will
:18:56. > :19:00.leave of my book, which will be called 100 Days, coming out before
:19:01. > :19:03.Christmas. Once you read that, I will probably reveal the things I
:19:04. > :19:08.would have changed. Basically, broadly, this was an extraordinary
:19:09. > :19:12.campaign. Not just a political campaign, but a campaign involving
:19:13. > :19:16.the grassroots of Scotland in an energising, empowering way, the like
:19:17. > :19:19.of which in on of us have witnessed. It was an extraordinary phenomenon
:19:20. > :19:26.of grassroots campaigning, which carried the Yes Campaign so far
:19:27. > :19:37.almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch put his Scottish Sun behind you
:19:38. > :19:44.would have that made the difference? If ifs and ands were pots and
:19:45. > :19:48.pans... Why did he not? I would not say that, you have form with him
:19:49. > :19:55.that I do not have. I'm not sure about that. I was very encouraged.
:19:56. > :19:59.The coverage, not in the other papers, The Times, which was
:20:00. > :20:04.extremely hostile to Scottish independence, but the coverage in
:20:05. > :20:13.the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced and we certainly got a very fair
:20:14. > :20:16.kick of the ball. In newspapers I would settle for no editorial line
:20:17. > :20:20.and just balanced coverage. We certainly got that from the Scottish
:20:21. > :20:26.Sun and that was an encouragement. I think you saw from his tweets,
:20:27. > :20:36.certainly in his heart he would have liked to have seen a move forward in
:20:37. > :20:41.Scotland and I like that. He said if you lost, that was it, referendum
:20:42. > :20:46.wise, for a generation, which he defined as about 20 years. Is that
:20:47. > :20:50.still your view? Yes, it is. It has always been my view. It's a personal
:20:51. > :20:55.view. There are always things that can change in politics. If the UK
:20:56. > :20:58.moved out of the European Union for example, that would be the sort of
:20:59. > :21:02.circumstance. Some people would argue with Westminster parties, and
:21:03. > :21:08.I'm actually not surprised that they are reneging on commitments, I am
:21:09. > :21:12.just surprised by the speed they are doing it. They seem to be totally
:21:13. > :21:18.shameless in these matters. You don't think they will meet the vow?
:21:19. > :21:21.You don't think there will keep to their vow? They are not, for that
:21:22. > :21:27.essential reason you saw developing on Friday. The Prime Minister wants
:21:28. > :21:29.to link change in Scotland to change in England. He wants to do that
:21:30. > :21:35.because he has difficulty in carrying his backbenchers on this
:21:36. > :21:38.and they are under pressure from UKIP. The Labour leadership are
:21:39. > :21:41.frightened of any changes in England which leave them without a majority
:21:42. > :21:46.in the House of Commons on English matters. I would not call it an
:21:47. > :21:52.irresistible force and immovable object, one is resistible and one is
:21:53. > :21:56.movable. They are at loggerheads. The vow, I think, was something
:21:57. > :21:58.cooked up in desperation for the last few days of the campaign. I
:21:59. > :22:05.think everybody in Scotland now engines that. -- recognises that. It
:22:06. > :22:09.was the people that were persuaded to vote no that word tricked,
:22:10. > :22:15.effectively. They are the ones that are really angry. Ed Miliband and
:22:16. > :22:22.David Cameron, if they are watching this, I would be more worried about
:22:23. > :22:29.the anger of the no voters than the opinion of the Yes Vote on that
:22:30. > :22:35.matter. If independence is on the back burner for now, what would you
:22:36. > :22:40.advise your successor's strategy for the SNP to be? I would advise him or
:22:41. > :22:48.her not to listen to advice from their predecessor. A new leader
:22:49. > :22:52.brings forward a new strategy. I think this is, for the SNP, a very
:22:53. > :22:59.favourable political time. There have been 5000 new members joined
:23:00. > :23:02.since Thursday. That is about a 25% increase in the party membership in
:23:03. > :23:14.the space of a few days. More than that, I think this is an opportunity
:23:15. > :23:18.for the SNP. But my goal is the opportunity for Scotland. I would
:23:19. > :23:24.repeat I am not retiring from politics. I'm standing down as First
:23:25. > :23:28.Minister of Scotland. On Friday coming back to the north-east of
:23:29. > :23:34.Scotland, I passed through Dundee, which voted yes by a stud --
:23:35. > :23:38.substantial margin. There was a line of a song I couldn't get out of my
:23:39. > :23:47.head, and old Jacobite song, rewritten by Robert Burns, the last
:23:48. > :23:54.line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in the midst of your glee, you've not
:23:55. > :23:58.seen the last of my bonnets and me. So you are staying a member of the
:23:59. > :24:03.Scottish Parliament, shall we see you again in the House of Commons?
:24:04. > :24:10.What does the future hold for you? Membership of Scottish Parliament is
:24:11. > :24:13.dependent on the good folk of Aberdeenshire east. If they choose
:24:14. > :24:19.to elect me, I will be delighted to serve. I've always loved being a
:24:20. > :24:21.constituency member of Parliament, I have known some front line
:24:22. > :24:26.politicians that regarded that as a chore. I'm not saying they didn t do
:24:27. > :24:32.it properly, I am sure they did But I love it. You get distilled wisdom
:24:33. > :24:35.from being a constituency member of Parliament that helps you keep your
:24:36. > :24:39.feet on the ground and have a good observation as to what matters to
:24:40. > :24:44.people. I have no difficulty with being a constituent member of
:24:45. > :24:55.Parliament. Can you promise me it will never be Lord Salmond? Yes
:24:56. > :25:03.Thanks for joining us. Great pleasure, thank you. Now, the
:25:04. > :25:07.independence referendum is over the next big electoral test is a general
:25:08. > :25:13.election. It is just over seven months away. In a moment I will be
:25:14. > :25:17.talking to Chuka Umunna, but what are the political views of the men
:25:18. > :25:21.and women fighting to win seats for the Labour Party? The Sunday
:25:22. > :25:26.Politics has commissioned an exclusive survey of the
:25:27. > :25:29.Parliamentary candidates. Six out of seven Labour candidates
:25:30. > :25:33.say that the level of public spending during their last period of
:25:34. > :25:38.office was about right. 40% of them want a Labour government to raise
:25:39. > :25:42.taxes to reduce the budget deficit. 18% favour cutting spending. On
:25:43. > :25:48.immigration, just 15% think that the number coming to Britain is too
:25:49. > :25:51.high. Only 7% say we generous to immigrants. Three in ten candidates
:25:52. > :25:55.believe the party relationship with trade unions is not close enough.
:25:56. > :26:01.Not that we spoke to think it is too close. Or than half of the
:26:02. > :26:04.candidates say want to scrap the nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in
:26:05. > :26:10.five want to nationalise the railways. If they are after a change
:26:11. > :26:19.of leader, Yvette Cooper was their preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came
:26:20. > :26:23.in fourth. And he joins me now for the Sunday interview.
:26:24. > :26:30.Why is Labour choosing so many left-wing candidates? I don't think
:26:31. > :26:33.I accept the characterisation of candidates being left wing. I don't
:26:34. > :26:37.think your viewers see politics in terms of what is left and right I
:26:38. > :26:42.think they see it in terms of what is right and wrong. Obviously, many
:26:43. > :26:45.of the things we have been talking about, how we ensure that the next
:26:46. > :26:48.generation can do better than the last, how we raise the wages of your
:26:49. > :26:52.viewers, who are currently working very hard but not making a wage they
:26:53. > :26:57.can live off, that is what they are talking about and that is what the
:26:58. > :27:00.public will judge them on. But they want to raise taxes, they don't want
:27:01. > :27:03.to cut public spending, they want to re-nationalise the railways, they
:27:04. > :27:06.don't think there is too much immigration, they want to scrap
:27:07. > :27:12.Trident. These are all positions clearly to the left of current party
:27:13. > :27:15.policy. But that is your characterisation. If you look at our
:27:16. > :27:20.policy to increase the top rate of tax to 50% for people earning over
:27:21. > :27:22.?150,000, that is a central position. It is something that
:27:23. > :27:30.enjoys the support of the majority of the public. Trident? If you talk
:27:31. > :27:34.to the British public about immigration, yes, there are concerns
:27:35. > :27:38.about the numbers coming in and out, yes people want to see integration,
:27:39. > :27:41.yes, people want to see people putting a contribution before they
:27:42. > :27:45.take out, the people recognise, if you look at our multicultural
:27:46. > :27:48.nation, we have derived a lot of benefits from immigration. I don't
:27:49. > :27:55.think your characterisation of those positions, that is your view... It's
:27:56. > :28:00.not, it is their view. They are saying... You describe it... You
:28:01. > :28:04.described those positions as left wing positions. I am saying to you
:28:05. > :28:09.that I actually think a lot of those positions are centrist positions
:28:10. > :28:13.that would enjoy the support of the majority of your viewers. I don t
:28:14. > :28:17.think your viewers think the idea of the broadest shoulders bearing the
:28:18. > :28:21.heaviest burden in forms of tax are going to see it as a way out,
:28:22. > :28:25.radical principle. They want to scrap Trident, not party policy It
:28:26. > :28:35.isn't. I think that 73... Well, we will
:28:36. > :28:39.have 400 Parliamentary candidates at the time of the next general
:28:40. > :28:44.election, not including current MPs. This is 73 out of over 400 of them.
:28:45. > :28:49.I think we also need to treat the survey with a bit of caution. They
:28:50. > :28:53.are not representative? You are basically quoting the results of a
:28:54. > :28:57.small percentage of our Parliamentary candidates. It's
:28:58. > :29:01.pretty safe to say when you look at their views, they might be right or
:29:02. > :29:06.wrong, that's not my point, it's fairly safe to say that new Labour
:29:07. > :29:14.is dead? Again, I don't think people see things in terms of gold -- old
:29:15. > :29:17.or new Labour. We are standing at a Labour Party. We are a great
:29:18. > :29:22.country, but we have big challenges. We want to make sure that people can
:29:23. > :29:26.achieve their dreams and aspirations in this country. Too many people are
:29:27. > :29:29.not in that position. Too many people worry about the prospects of
:29:30. > :29:33.their children. Too many people do not earn a wage they can live off.
:29:34. > :29:36.Too many people are worried about the change. We have to make sure we
:29:37. > :29:40.are giving people a stake in the future. That is a Labour thing, you
:29:41. > :29:43.want to call it old or new come I don't care. It's a choice between
:29:44. > :29:53.Labour and the Conservatives in terms of who runs the next
:29:54. > :29:55.government. That one of your candidate we spoke to things that
:29:56. > :29:59.the party's relationship with the unions is to close. 30% of them
:30:00. > :30:03.think it should be closer. You have spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates.
:30:04. > :30:09.Why should the others be any different? It's a fairly
:30:10. > :30:13.representative Sample. Many people working on this set are the member
:30:14. > :30:15.of the union, the National union of journalists. People that came here
:30:16. > :30:20.to this Conference would have been brought here by trade union members.
:30:21. > :30:25.Do you think the relationship should be closer? I think it is where it
:30:26. > :30:29.should be. It should not be closer? I think that trade unions help
:30:30. > :30:34.create wealth in our country. If you look at some other success stories
:30:35. > :30:38.we are in the north-west, GM Vauxhall is there because you have
:30:39. > :30:43.trade unions working in partnership with government and local employees
:30:44. > :30:47.to make sure we kept producing cars. I'm not asking if unions are good or
:30:48. > :30:50.bad, I'm asking if Labour should be closer. You are presupposing, by the
:30:51. > :30:58.tone of your question, that our relationship is a problem. Let's
:30:59. > :31:02.turn to the English question. Why do you need a constitutional
:31:03. > :31:04.conversation where you have to discuss whether English people
:31:05. > :31:09.voting on English matters is unfair? We want to give the regions
:31:10. > :31:12.and cities in England more voice, but let's get it into perspective,
:31:13. > :31:21.we have had a situation where the Scottish people, as desired buying
:31:22. > :31:26.rich people, have to remain part of the UK -- by English people. What is
:31:27. > :31:29.the answer to the question? I don't want to get to a situation where
:31:30. > :31:32.people have voted for solidarity where you have a prime ministers
:31:33. > :31:38.talking about dividing up the UK Parliament. Let me put this point
:31:39. > :31:42.you. Most Scottish voters think it is unfair that Scottish MPs get to
:31:43. > :31:47.vote on English matters. That comes out in Scottish polls. Why don't you
:31:48. > :31:52.see it as unfair? If the Scots see it as unfair, why don't you? This is
:31:53. > :31:55.an age-old conundrum that has been around for 100 years and it's not so
:31:56. > :31:58.simple. You're talking about making a fundamental change to the British
:31:59. > :32:05.constitution on a whim. It's not just an issue, in respect of
:32:06. > :32:10.Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can vote on matters relating to the
:32:11. > :32:14.transport of England and transport is a devolved matter in London. In
:32:15. > :32:17.Wales, there are a number of competencies that Welsh MPs can vote
:32:18. > :32:21.on and they've been devolved to them. So with all of these different
:32:22. > :32:25.votes, you will exclude different MPs? I think the solution is not
:32:26. > :32:28.necessarily to obsess about what is happening between MPs in
:32:29. > :32:33.Westminster. That turns people politics. We need to devolve more. I
:32:34. > :32:38.think we should be giving the cities and regions of England more autonomy
:32:39. > :32:42.in the way that we are doing in Scotland, but I've got to say,
:32:43. > :32:45.Andrew, it's dishonourable and in bad faith for the Prime Minister to
:32:46. > :32:49.now seek to link what he agreed before the referendum to this issue
:32:50. > :32:54.of English votes for English MPs. That is totally dishonourable and in
:32:55. > :32:58.bad faith. You have promised to devolve more tax powers to Scotland.
:32:59. > :33:02.What would they be? This is being decided at the moment. I cannot give
:33:03. > :33:07.you the exact detail of what the tax powers would be. Could you give us a
:33:08. > :33:10.rough idea? There is a White Paper being produced before November and
:33:11. > :33:17.there will be draft legislation put forward in January. Your leader has
:33:18. > :33:20.vowed that this will happen. And you haven't got a policy? You can't tell
:33:21. > :33:25.us what the tax powers will be? I can't tell you on this programme
:33:26. > :33:28.right now. But we have accepted the principle on further devolution on
:33:29. > :33:32.tax, spending on welfare and we will have further details in due course.
:33:33. > :33:37.Your leader promised to maintain the Barnett Formula for the foreseeable
:33:38. > :33:41.future. Why is that fair when it enshrines more per capita spending
:33:42. > :33:44.for Scotland than it does for Wales, which is poorer, and more than many
:33:45. > :33:50.of the poorer regions in England get? Why is that fair? We have said
:33:51. > :33:53.that in terms of looking at go - local government spending playing
:33:54. > :33:57.out in this Parliament, we have looked at what the government has
:33:58. > :33:59.done which is having already deprived communities having money
:34:00. > :34:04.taken away from them and wealthier communities are getting more. We
:34:05. > :34:10.accept that the Barnett Formula has worked well. How has it works well?
:34:11. > :34:15.There is a cross parliamentary consensus as they don't know what to
:34:16. > :34:21.do about it. Why has it works well, when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm
:34:22. > :34:24.not sure by I accept that when you look at overall underspend --
:34:25. > :34:31.government spending. It is per capita spending in Scotland, which
:34:32. > :34:34.is way ahead of per capita spending in Wales, but per capita incomes in
:34:35. > :34:40.Scotland are way ahead of Wales Why is that fair Labour politician? We
:34:41. > :34:44.have said we want to have more equitable distribution. You haven't,
:34:45. > :34:47.you have said you will keep the Barnett Formula. I'm not sure
:34:48. > :34:52.necessarily punishing Scotland is the way to go. The way that this
:34:53. > :34:56.debate is going, what message does it send to the Scottish people? I
:34:57. > :35:00.want to be clear, I am delighted with the result we have got. The
:35:01. > :35:04.unity and solidarity where maintaining across the nations of
:35:05. > :35:07.the United Kingdom. All of this separatist talk, setting up
:35:08. > :35:11.different nations of the UK against each other goes completely against
:35:12. > :35:14.what we've all been campaigning for over the last two years, and we
:35:15. > :35:18.shouldn't have any truck with it. Coming onto the announcement on the
:35:19. > :35:23.minimum wage, you would increase it by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which
:35:24. > :35:28.would be over five years. That is all you are going to do over five
:35:29. > :35:36.years. Have you worked out how much of this increase will be clawed back
:35:37. > :35:41.in taxation and fewer benefits? Work has been done on it. How much? I
:35:42. > :35:47.can't give you an exact figure. The policy pays for itself. The way we
:35:48. > :35:50.have looked at this, we looked at the government figures, and if
:35:51. > :35:54.people are earning more, they would therefore be paying more in income
:35:55. > :35:58.tax and they will be receiving less in benefit and will pay out less in
:35:59. > :36:02.tax credits, so we are confident that this will pay for itself. I'm
:36:03. > :36:07.not asking about the pavement, I'm asking what it means for low paid
:36:08. > :36:11.workers will stop they will get an extra 30p per hour -- about the
:36:12. > :36:16.payment. How much of the 30p to they get to keep? In terms of what they
:36:17. > :36:21.get in the first instance, somebody on the minimum wage now, with our
:36:22. > :36:24.proposal, would get in the region of ?3000 a year more than they are at
:36:25. > :36:33.the moment. That is before tax and benefits. How much do they keep I
:36:34. > :36:37.cannot give you an exact figure Why don't you give me an exact figure if
:36:38. > :36:40.you've done the modelling? We are talking about some of the lowest
:36:41. > :36:43.paid people in the country, and I would suggest to you that going down
:36:44. > :36:50.this route, they would face a marginal rate of tax of 50 or 6 %
:36:51. > :36:54.and they will not keep most of this increase you are talking about. I
:36:55. > :36:59.don't accept your figures. But you haven't got any of your own. I just
:37:00. > :37:03.don't have any in my head I can give you right now. Don't you think out
:37:04. > :37:07.policies before you announce them? Of course we think our policies
:37:08. > :37:09.before we announce them but we are confident people have more in their
:37:10. > :37:12.pocket and will be better off with the changes proposed, and we are
:37:13. > :37:17.also seeking to incentivise employers to pay a living wage as
:37:18. > :37:21.well. At the end of the day, as I said, the economy is recovering
:37:22. > :37:24.great, but we know, at the moment, it's still not delivering for a huge
:37:25. > :37:28.number of your viewers and we're determined to do something about it.
:37:29. > :37:32.The status quo is not an option And even joining me. Twice in three
:37:33. > :37:35.days. You can't have too much of a good thing. I am mad. He said that,
:37:36. > :37:37.not me. It's just gone 11.35, you're
:37:38. > :37:40.watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland
:37:41. > :37:42.who leave us now for Coming up here in twenty minutes,
:37:43. > :37:48.we'll be joined by John Prescott to talk about the challenge facing
:37:49. > :37:50.Labour as their conference starts First though,
:37:51. > :37:59.the Sunday Politics where you are. Hello,
:38:00. > :38:01.you're watching the Sunday Politics As Scotland votes to remain part
:38:02. > :38:09.of the UK, we examine the growing calls this weekend for Engl`nd to
:38:10. > :38:20.get a better deal from Westlinster. So everyone agrees we need lore
:38:21. > :38:24.direct power south of the border. An English parliament,
:38:25. > :38:29.regional assemblies, or giving our big cities grdater
:38:30. > :38:34.control over taxpayers monex? Discussing this and more,
:38:35. > :38:40.our guests today are Labour MP for Hull East, Karl Turner, former
:38:41. > :38:43.Liberal Democrat MEP, Diana Wallis, who represents a group calldd
:38:44. > :38:47.the Yorkshire Devolution Movement. And in our Hull studio is
:38:48. > :38:49.Andrew Percy, the Conservathve MP Yorkshire's William Hague whll
:38:50. > :38:58.draw`up proposals to redress the political balance in England,
:38:59. > :39:01.at the same time And as Len Tingle now reports,
:39:02. > :39:07.this is a debate we've been having Power for the North is far
:39:08. > :39:13.from a new idea. Here at medieval King's Manor
:39:14. > :39:16.in York, But it got too powerful
:39:17. > :39:22.and was abolished. It was certainly power to the North,
:39:23. > :39:30.but hardly power to the people. And for several centuries after
:39:31. > :39:36.that it was a familiar pattdrn. At Westminster, with first the King
:39:37. > :39:44.and then Parliament. By the 20th century,
:39:45. > :39:49.men in bowler hats 200 miles away where making the decisions on how
:39:50. > :39:54.tax payers' money should be spent. The fallout from the
:39:55. > :39:57.Scottish Independence vote hs set to Westminster better start listening
:39:58. > :40:14.because we want a say We want the funding to make
:40:15. > :40:18.our ambitions a reality and, given those two things,
:40:19. > :40:21.we will make a real difference. This is just one example
:40:22. > :40:23.of how local decision`making powers The ?60 million cost of Leeds Arena
:40:24. > :40:27.wasn't the biggest stumbling block A dispute arose between Leeds and
:40:28. > :40:31.government departments in London, There were relevant questions,
:40:32. > :40:38.definitely, but on the other hand, I don't know whether some
:40:39. > :40:40.of the national agencies understood the particular local issues, what
:40:41. > :40:44.it would mean for people, how the economy
:40:45. > :40:47.of Leeds needed the night thme boost that the arena would bring
:40:48. > :40:50.and has brought since it opdned Some of those little nuances are
:40:51. > :40:54.lost in Whitehall sometimes. So all that information, official
:40:55. > :40:57.letters, e`mails, memos flashing between Yorkshire and London,
:40:58. > :41:01.different layers of bureaucracy just so that this, what's now ond of the
:41:02. > :41:06.biggest boosts to the econoly of this part of West Yorkshire
:41:07. > :41:09.at least, could be built. But 200 miles north from here it
:41:10. > :41:14.was a completely different story. Alongside the ageing Forth Road
:41:15. > :41:17.Bridge, a brand`new crossing is being built linking Edinburgh
:41:18. > :41:21.with the north`east of Scotland The Queensferry Crossing will have
:41:22. > :41:24.cost ?1.4 billion Not a single Whitehall mand`rin
:41:25. > :41:31.has had to be consulted. Even before it gets any new powers,
:41:32. > :41:34.the devolved Scottish parli`ment could make that spending decision
:41:35. > :41:38.for itself. But is there really the appdtite
:41:39. > :41:41.for those powers from the ptblic I think if they gave
:41:42. > :41:46.the power to the people now, up here, we would see what's going
:41:47. > :41:50.on, they would be able to do more Politicians spend too much loney
:41:51. > :41:54.at the moment anyway, so I think it's probably not a good idda to set
:41:55. > :42:01.up another assembly in Yorkshire. I think there might be some scope
:42:02. > :42:04.for some kind of local bodies to vary tax`tion
:42:05. > :42:07.and raise taxation locally So, yes, to the money, but who's
:42:08. > :42:14.going to make the decisions If Leeds Arena was being buhlt today
:42:15. > :42:19.it could be the City Council, the Leeds City Region, the business`led
:42:20. > :42:23.local enterprise partnership or even the new combined West Yorkshire
:42:24. > :42:28.Local Authorities body. Is more clarity needed
:42:29. > :42:33.on where the power will lay? We are nowhere near where wd need to
:42:34. > :42:36.be in terms of those organisations. There's very good councils
:42:37. > :42:39.and public bodies working mtch more We have lots and lots of laxers of
:42:40. > :42:46.local government, Parish Cotncil, Do we need all those layers
:42:47. > :42:52.and how do we get it more streamlined and how do we gdt people
:42:53. > :42:55.working between the different parts These are issues that will certainly
:42:56. > :43:01.be high on the agenda of every political party conference
:43:02. > :43:16.in the coming weeks. Let's go live to Andrew Percy in the
:43:17. > :43:20.hole. Andrew, I'd heard you on the airwaves this weekend calling for an
:43:21. > :43:24.English Parliament, but wouldn't that be dominated by Tory MPs from
:43:25. > :43:29.the South? How would that decentralise power to board? That
:43:30. > :43:38.would depend on how people hn the North about. Those times in our
:43:39. > :43:42.history England has elected a Labour majority and Tory majority. What we
:43:43. > :43:45.can't allow to continue is this mass devolution to Scotland to h`ppen
:43:46. > :43:50.without any solution for England. We can't allow Scottish MPs at continue
:43:51. > :43:54.voting on matters that affect Yorkshire and England. It is not
:43:55. > :44:01.acceptable to the people I represent. Let me put the issue to
:44:02. > :44:05.Karl Turner. Is it right, Scottish MPs can decide how much is spent on
:44:06. > :44:11.health and education in whole was not but we have no say on what they
:44:12. > :44:19.spend. That issue needs dealing with. This was dreamt up by David
:44:20. > :44:23.Cameron and written on the back of a fag packet. It's dishonourable. At
:44:24. > :44:33.the cynical by David Cameron to settle his ranting, right whng
:44:34. > :44:44.backbenchers. That's the trtth of it. What we really need is lore
:44:45. > :44:54.devolution for cities like hole `` Hull.
:44:55. > :45:04.It's disgusting of David Caleron. Carl can't give a single good reason
:45:05. > :45:09.why Scottish MPs should trot down to Westminster and continue to vote on
:45:10. > :45:12.help service funding for Yorkshire. And not vote on it for their own
:45:13. > :45:15.constituents. There is not one good reason other than labour wanting to
:45:16. > :45:20.maintain its electoral advantage from Scotland and Wales. We have
:45:21. > :45:37.been talking about that English was over a decade.
:45:38. > :45:42.David Cameron made no mention of this when he was begging and
:45:43. > :45:48.pleading Ed Miliband to savd the union. It absolutely dishonourable
:45:49. > :45:54.of David Cameron to come out with this after the Scottish people have
:45:55. > :46:00.voted on the issue. Let me bring in Diana. What would your model the
:46:01. > :46:05.devolution of the Yorkshire luck like? I think this is very sad and
:46:06. > :46:09.depressing that we have a London based argument. What I'm interested
:46:10. > :46:17.in is what we do here in Yorkshire. We have a population of Scotland, an
:46:18. > :46:21.economy twice the size of W`les With the same size of many countries
:46:22. > :46:27.in northern Europe. Why are now can we not have a reasonable offer of
:46:28. > :46:33.powers for Yorkshire? Peopld have seen what has gone on in Scotland.
:46:34. > :46:36.They've seen the energising political process. People w`nt to be
:46:37. > :46:40.involved. But they want to be offered something realistic and
:46:41. > :46:45.something with real power that they can use here in Yorkshire. They can
:46:46. > :46:51.argue for as long as they lhke about what happens in London. Frankly I
:46:52. > :46:54.don't care but I want to have a good discussion and a good conversation
:46:55. > :47:01.about what the people of Yorkshire want for Yorkshire. Andrew, you re
:47:02. > :47:04.in a position because your constituency straddles the Xorkshire
:47:05. > :47:07.and Lincolnshire. You have to admit there is a huge Yorkshire identity
:47:08. > :47:15.at the moment. Surely there's an argument or some form of regional
:47:16. > :47:23.woman? There is a strong Yorkshire identity. Any Yorkshire solttion
:47:24. > :47:26.would be dominated by the Wdst riding and over in the East Riding
:47:27. > :47:29.we have a very small population for them I went out and asked the people
:47:30. > :47:37.long before this whole debate was decided last Thursday. A thousand of
:47:38. > :47:42.my constituents responded and 8 said they supported regional
:47:43. > :47:44.government. The most popular response was English motor Dnglish
:47:45. > :47:48.people. I don't think there's any movement to create a whole new layer
:47:49. > :47:52.of politicians in Yorkshire. I'm not sure that actually would deliver any
:47:53. > :47:57.more local governance than `ny other solution. I think you're behng local
:47:58. > :48:01.councils more power is important but this is a fiddle. This is l`bour's
:48:02. > :48:05.fiddle. They want to deny the people of England the same solution that
:48:06. > :48:08.the Scots have. They think they can throw a few crumbs to local councils
:48:09. > :48:14.and the English will be bought off. We won't be this time. We should
:48:15. > :48:19.have the same solution is the Scots. Yorkshire should have the s`me as
:48:20. > :48:30.the Scots. If you want to propose that in a referendum in Serbia. ``
:48:31. > :48:35.survey. But there is a movelent for is to stop this anomaly where Scots
:48:36. > :48:38.MPs vote on matters in Engl`nd that do not affect this constitudnts
:48:39. > :48:45.Nobody on this panel today can give a single good reason why th`t should
:48:46. > :48:49.continue. Carl Turner, is Ed Miliband taking this issue hnto the
:48:50. > :48:54.long grass? Why doesn't he support David Cameron's proposals? This
:48:55. > :49:00.issue does definitely team need to be dealt with. We have to ddliver on
:49:01. > :49:04.our promise to the people of Scotland. People are bolted. They
:49:05. > :49:10.voted for unity and David C`meron has with dad by coming after the
:49:11. > :49:16.fact with this plan for English vote for English law to settle pdople
:49:17. > :49:20.like Andrew Percy down. The real truth is people want devolution The
:49:21. > :49:35.Labour Party will absolutelx offer devolution.
:49:36. > :49:42.The plan has been properly considered and can be delivdred The
:49:43. > :49:46.reality is David Cameron is the one who had is deflecting things. We
:49:47. > :49:50.need to deliver on our promhse to Scotland before we deal with the
:49:51. > :49:57.serious and important issue of the West Lothian question. Andrdw Percy
:49:58. > :50:08.said in true family fortune style he's been out and survey thd public.
:50:09. > :50:12.Is that your take on things? It s not my take at all. It's very good
:50:13. > :50:17.that Andrew has done a survdy. But we need a proper process in
:50:18. > :50:20.Yorkshire to allow people to decide what sort of solution and what sort
:50:21. > :50:24.of future they going to get. A process that involves not jtst
:50:25. > :50:25.elected politicians but ordhnary people feel that they can ilport
:50:26. > :50:47.into it properly. `` input. We are going to move on now. The
:50:48. > :50:49.The term 'devo max' we have heard a lot in recent weeks,
:50:50. > :50:53.Phillip Blond, the man who hnspired David Cameron's policy of creating
:50:54. > :50:56.a so`called "Big Society", tells us the government shotld be
:50:57. > :50:59.much bolder and hand over control of raising and spending taxds to
:51:00. > :51:13.The consequences of Thursdax's referendum are going to be
:51:14. > :51:16.game`changing, not just for the devolved n`tions,
:51:17. > :51:25.Everyone's talking about thd West Lothian question
:51:26. > :51:28.and only allowing English MPs to vote on English issues,
:51:29. > :51:34.This is just the status quo and the continuation of London`based, South
:51:35. > :51:44.The only game`changer in town is full city`based
:51:45. > :51:48.and city region`based devolttion to our great towns and cities that
:51:49. > :51:51.have effectively been abandoned by the politics and economics
:51:52. > :52:02.Unless we do this, unless wd give things like full tax raising powers
:52:03. > :52:05.in terms of property taxes, and local income tax even, `nd the
:52:06. > :52:11.ability to change business rates in these areas, in places like Leeds
:52:12. > :52:14.city region, Sheffield city region, we're not going to transforl
:52:15. > :52:18.the economic social outcome for our people who live there
:52:19. > :52:20.and for their children and their children's childrdn.
:52:21. > :52:24.This is what the demand for devolution is.
:52:25. > :52:26.It comes from a desperate need to ch`nge
:52:27. > :52:43.and he joins us live from Westminster this morning. There was
:52:44. > :52:47.a phrase in your report that I think might send shudders down a few
:52:48. > :52:53.spines. You talk about tax raising powers for the cities. Why do we
:52:54. > :52:58.always talk about tax raising? Why not tax cutting? Well you'vd
:52:59. > :53:02.answered my question for me. My vision is that the northern cities
:53:03. > :53:08.would be able to cut their business rates and cut their income tax rate.
:53:09. > :53:12.So that they can make themsdlves far more attractive places to locate
:53:13. > :53:19.businesses and grow jobs and build homes and futures. Let me ptt that
:53:20. > :53:26.Andrew Percy. How are peopld in your area about that smart I'm not sure
:53:27. > :53:32.where we fall into this. Quhte how we fit in, unless someone is
:53:33. > :53:36.proposing expanded cities, which of course is not popular with the
:53:37. > :53:40.public. I don't think it by most of my constituents if they wanted me to
:53:41. > :53:43.go to Westminster and evolvd the power and setting income tax to
:53:44. > :53:47.local councils, whether thex would be in support of it. I don't sense
:53:48. > :53:53.there is any movement that. What we should have is some power from
:53:54. > :54:03.Westminster by mature tax r`ising powers are the answer. Some of our
:54:04. > :54:10.smaller towns and cities in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire get
:54:11. > :54:15.nothing. Yes, of course. And not just saying cities. When thd
:54:16. > :54:18.situation were our local cities particularly in areas outside of the
:54:19. > :54:24.South East, have suffered long`term neglect. What we're trying to do is
:54:25. > :54:30.let these areas have power to shape the outcome is and to control their
:54:31. > :54:35.own fate. If you look at thd Scottish referendum, the people that
:54:36. > :54:40.voted yes were those areas that had the highest rate of unemploxment in
:54:41. > :54:45.Scotland. I think the demand the devolution is a demand to actually
:54:46. > :54:50.not be left out. To not be left out of prosperity and reward. Wd know,
:54:51. > :54:58.for instance, and I think you're guest is mistaken earlier. We know
:54:59. > :55:03.that if we place ace Publix Sir it is. If we let localities integrate
:55:04. > :55:08.public services. Instead of having bad to different funding Latins with
:55:09. > :55:12.the enormous levels of bure`ucracy but read based around invigorated
:55:13. > :55:15.public authorities, they will say enormous amount of money th`t can be
:55:16. > :55:22.reinvested in those communities We actually get an enormous increase in
:55:23. > :55:29.public expenditure by saving money. Over the last, with done sttdies,
:55:30. > :55:35.and Ernst Young calculated that over five years the broach directly
:55:36. > :55:40.mended we could save between nine and ?20 billion a year. That would
:55:41. > :55:42.be extra money going into these localities. Only talk about
:55:43. > :55:47.tax`raising powers what we're talking about is the abilitx to
:55:48. > :55:55.actually say, you know what, we want to encourage a clothing indtstry.
:55:56. > :55:58.Let's take that five years they dump a business rates. That's thd type of
:55:59. > :56:02.power I would like localitids to have said they can encouragd their
:56:03. > :56:07.own developments. The point is Westminster has failed the North. If
:56:08. > :56:11.Westminster has failed the north, Denver North has to look after
:56:12. > :56:15.itself and be in a position to shape at a ad comes. That's what H'm
:56:16. > :56:26.arguing for. As Westerners `bout the North? I think to some extent it
:56:27. > :56:32.has. The Tories chose to scrap. . What we need is more power to
:56:33. > :56:37.localise partnerships. They know where the money needs to be spent to
:56:38. > :56:41.improve the local economy. We need combined authorities like
:56:42. > :56:46.Manchester. Again, they know where money needs to be spent. It's not
:56:47. > :56:49.necessarily about throwing loney at them. It's about spending the money
:56:50. > :56:53.that is already going there properly. More efficiently, by
:56:54. > :56:59.people. Decisions made by pdople who know what is needed for the area.
:57:00. > :57:04.Not Whitehall, not David Caleron, who is completely out of totch with
:57:05. > :57:14.people who I represent. Labour had 13 years to do this. To devolve the
:57:15. > :57:17.power. Basically, you bottldd it. The reality is we were doing a lot
:57:18. > :57:24.of good. I think Yorkshire forward was a good example...
:57:25. > :57:32.Things are happening through Yorkshire forward and improvements
:57:33. > :57:36.would definitely made. That's what we need more power to local
:57:37. > :57:45.enterprise partnerships. And a bit more money. At about spending the
:57:46. > :57:49.money properly. This idea that Yorkshire forward was doing great
:57:50. > :58:01.things but our area. We don't need any lectures `bout how
:58:02. > :58:06.Yorkshire forward was. The real solution is more money. With address
:58:07. > :58:07.some of those big infrastructure issues that the last Labour
:58:08. > :58:20.government didn't. We don't need any lessons from Karl
:58:21. > :58:24.Turner. They had the opporttnity to devolve power to the north `nd they
:58:25. > :58:27.didn't do it. They still can't answer the question, why should
:58:28. > :58:29.Scottish Labour MPs continud to govern England when English LPs have
:58:30. > :58:59.no say in Scotland. This is to `` how come you `re
:59:00. > :59:11.prepared to give them all these powers?
:59:12. > :59:23.This is hypocritical. You are a hypocrite.
:59:24. > :59:33.It's fine for Scotland but not in England? . I cannot imagine what
:59:34. > :59:36.people listening and watching this thinking. A very good suggestion is
:59:37. > :59:42.made about regions cities h`ving tax raising powers. That politically
:59:43. > :59:47.empowering and it allows people in the region to make the decision
:59:48. > :59:56.about how tax is raised. I `lways remember a local council having to
:59:57. > :59:59.go to London with a begging bowl. I want this region to be able to make
:00:00. > :00:03.its own decision about how H get its income and how it spends it. People
:00:04. > :00:07.in Scotland were energised `bout politics because they knew that sort
:00:08. > :00:13.of decision making power was on offer. Philip Al give the vhew of
:00:14. > :00:18.the last word on this. How do we know your tax raising cities will
:00:19. > :00:23.become corrupt little fiefdoms. That's the danger with all
:00:24. > :00:25.politicians. The point is wd also told the local Public Accounts
:00:26. > :00:30.Committee is. The real point is this? Neither left nor right has
:00:31. > :00:37.devolve power for the last 30 to 40 years. This government has done some
:00:38. > :00:44.good things. City deals are just not large enough. If we really want to
:00:45. > :00:48.create the outcomes we need, devolve downwards,. We are going to have to
:00:49. > :00:52.leave it there. Thanks to our guests today
:00:53. > :00:58.Karl Turner, the Conservative mayor's policy No
:00:59. > :01:06.more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back to you.
:01:07. > :01:08.Welcome back the to Labour conference, where we're joined
:01:09. > :01:12.by the latest hot new stand-up comedian on the Manchester circuit.
:01:13. > :01:17.I speak of course of former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott.
:01:18. > :01:19.In between giving tub-thumping speeches to rally
:01:20. > :01:22.the party faithful this week, he's appearing at the Comedy Store.
:01:23. > :01:25.He was also of course the man behind the last attempt to solve
:01:26. > :01:37.Our political panel is with me as well. John, we have got Scottish
:01:38. > :01:39.votes for Scottish laws, and more Scottish votes for Scottish laws,
:01:40. > :01:45.why not English votes for English laws? That's an English parliament
:01:46. > :01:49.in a major constitutional change and that is what has started. I
:01:50. > :01:53.certainly don't agree with that I campaign for powers to be given to
:01:54. > :01:56.the regions. When I first tested it in the Northeast, I lost. Why?
:01:57. > :02:01.Because they said they were not the same powers you are giving to
:02:02. > :02:09.Scotland. So, basically, we must do that, decentralised, not just with a
:02:10. > :02:12.Westminster Parliament. As you know, in 32 years I produce the
:02:13. > :02:17.alternative. You've kept that for 32 years? I took it off my shelf and
:02:18. > :02:23.everybody was talking about it now, but they weren't in 1982. This was
:02:24. > :02:29.my five plan. 200 meetings all around the country -- five-year
:02:30. > :02:33.plan. You wrote this morning, not 35 years ago, that this was a plot to
:02:34. > :02:36.turn Westminster into a Tory dominated English parliament. But if
:02:37. > :02:42.that is how England had voted, it's not a plot, it's democracy. You can
:02:43. > :02:46.get reform in a more federal structure, and even English
:02:47. > :02:49.parliament does fit into the federal structure and that is what the
:02:50. > :02:54.Liberals say, but you need a fairer representation. It might be quite
:02:55. > :02:58.radical, and we could get rid of the Lord's, and have representation in
:02:59. > :03:04.the region there. It can't be done in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's
:03:05. > :03:07.assuming he has been sold out, and it was less than a week ago they
:03:08. > :03:13.remain the announcement. We have to get it carried out will stop but
:03:14. > :03:18.don't connect it to the English parliament that fixes it in their
:03:19. > :03:21.favour. It may be pretty low politics from David Cameron to come
:03:22. > :03:27.up with something that was not in the vowel -- a bow on the front page
:03:28. > :03:30.of the daily record, but if they do not agree with what he said at the
:03:31. > :03:34.time of the general election, he will say two in which voters, if you
:03:35. > :03:38.want real protection in England vote Conservative, and if you want
:03:39. > :03:42.Scottish MPs deciding on your level of taxation, vote Labour. He is
:03:43. > :03:46.scared to death of UKIP may have been saying it for a while. In the
:03:47. > :03:50.constitutional changes have to see what is fair and equitable, the same
:03:51. > :03:54.with the Barnett fallen -- formula. But what you have to do is get a
:03:55. > :03:58.fair system. It takes time to discuss it. I was doing a 32 years
:03:59. > :04:02.ago and nobody wanted to know. We had better start a debate, and don't
:04:03. > :04:07.mixed up the constitutional type of English parliament with what we are
:04:08. > :04:13.promising in Scotland. It is about trust and politics. So the turnout
:04:14. > :04:18.of the north-east regional assembly and they voted against it. The
:04:19. > :04:21.turnout that the police and crime commissioners was low. How'd you get
:04:22. > :04:25.people interested in the process and it doesn't feel like a conversation
:04:26. > :04:28.in smoky rooms and you go back to British people and tell them what
:04:29. > :04:33.you decided? If you look at the turnout in Scotland whether they
:04:34. > :04:35.were interested in, now it is phenomenally interesting. It is
:04:36. > :04:39.about real power, having real influence. What they said to me in
:04:40. > :04:43.the north-east, they said we know you have an idea for devolution and
:04:44. > :04:46.you will give us assemblies but it doesn't have the power of Scotland,
:04:47. > :04:50.but now we are talking about equity, similar distribution of
:04:51. > :04:53.power and similar resources. The English people are entitled to that.
:04:54. > :04:59.They have been robbed of it for too long. Labour has long struggled with
:05:00. > :05:03.what it should do over devolving power to the regions and you came up
:05:04. > :05:07.with regional assemblies. Ed Miliband has a different idea of
:05:08. > :05:10.city regions. Aren't they the same idea of yours but without a
:05:11. > :05:14.democratic accountability? Can we really trust the greater region of
:05:15. > :05:19.Manchester or Birmingham to deliver if there is not the same kind of
:05:20. > :05:24.democratic link with the people I live in whole, and it stops on the
:05:25. > :05:29.boundary of the Pennines -- the city of Hull. We have city regions from
:05:30. > :05:33.Labour because I failed in the north-east to get the assemblies in,
:05:34. > :05:37.and now we have to look at those options. Do you work through city
:05:38. > :05:40.regions? Mainly in the north, I might say. Even the federal
:05:41. > :05:43.structure they talk about my be in the North or Midlands with
:05:44. > :05:48.Birmingham, but there are a number of options and that is where I
:05:49. > :05:52.believe that what the White Paper should do is to put those options
:05:53. > :05:56.in. Instead of having to put them together, state what you want to do
:05:57. > :05:59.in the English regions. Leave it to the legislation, which is what will
:06:00. > :06:03.happen with the Scottish, and once you've agreed it, you do it after.
:06:04. > :06:07.You have to start the radical debate about giving the English regions,
:06:08. > :06:12.not centralised in London, but decentralised. Do you need to have a
:06:13. > :06:17.separate English parliament? Wouldn't it just satisfy the English
:06:18. > :06:21.if you simply said to MPs, when it's in English matter in the House of
:06:22. > :06:25.Commons, stop interfering? I would disagree with that. I would say put
:06:26. > :06:29.the option in the White Paper. The White Paper seems to be talking
:06:30. > :06:32.about Scotland. If you don't put the commitments to what you want to do
:06:33. > :06:38.with the English regions, people might say I'm not supporting that.
:06:39. > :06:41.Put the framework in the White Paper, but a different timetable.
:06:42. > :06:45.Devolution in this country has been to a different timetable, whether
:06:46. > :06:49.it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start looking fundamentally at it and the
:06:50. > :06:56.Labour Party should be leading the debate. Let's come the no campaign
:06:57. > :07:00.lost Glasgow. The cradle of British socialism. -- let's come to
:07:01. > :07:04.something that happened with the referendum as the no campaign lost
:07:05. > :07:08.Glasgow. Is it a sign that the Labour Party are finding it hard to
:07:09. > :07:12.what -- hold on to their traditional working class vote question mark its
:07:13. > :07:16.different in Manchester. They would say it is a message about
:07:17. > :07:25.decentralisation. If we change the message a bit maybe. We have been
:07:26. > :07:29.thinking that now it is that either the Labour Party to recognise it is
:07:30. > :07:33.not the old message and old areas that will win it. I remember
:07:34. > :07:38.covering the 1997 referendum in Scotland and you gave a tub thumping
:07:39. > :07:41.speech in a big hall in Hamilton and you really connected. Obviously it
:07:42. > :07:45.was a different referendum because that was about a parliament, not
:07:46. > :07:49.independence and Alex Salmond was on your side, but you, and Ingush MP,
:07:50. > :07:53.an English minister, connected to the core Labour voters in a way that
:07:54. > :08:02.Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an English MP. You make a fair point.
:08:03. > :08:09.In the big rally, I had to point out I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on
:08:10. > :08:14.with it. What I was saying there was that I supported you, as I did for
:08:15. > :08:17.30 odd years when Labour MPs were against any thinker Scotland. I
:08:18. > :08:20.support you, but I expect you to come in with your Scottish MPs and
:08:21. > :08:25.make sure the English get their share of the powers and resources
:08:26. > :08:31.and that is what that speech was about, and by God, it's as relevant
:08:32. > :08:35.today as it was then. I haven't got any Scottish MPs, I live in
:08:36. > :08:43.Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote? No. What would you have done? I
:08:44. > :08:50.can't tell you. You would have voted yes, come on. I'm interested. What
:08:51. > :08:56.do you want to hear from the speech by Ed Miliband? People are wondering
:08:57. > :09:00.about where Labour stands. There are many issues we have flown around,
:09:01. > :09:07.and we've done the discussion just now. What he has got to do where he
:09:08. > :09:11.started off on the minimum wage You are trying to deal with those left
:09:12. > :09:15.behind. Those are the bottom. That is the Labour message. The National
:09:16. > :09:18.Health Service is our creation and we have to say it will be saved If
:09:19. > :09:22.you can save all of these bankers with all the money and say you
:09:23. > :09:28.haven't got the money for the NHS, say where we stand. That will be the
:09:29. > :09:31.priority. The third one, housing. I have had a revolutionary idea that
:09:32. > :09:34.you can buy a house without a deposit and without the interest or
:09:35. > :09:40.paying the stamp duty, and you buy it by rent. The government gives
:09:41. > :09:44.?150 billion guaranteed housing for up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary
:09:45. > :09:48.people who can use their rent to buy the house. It's happening in the
:09:49. > :09:51.north-east. Why are they not listening to you? You have said more
:09:52. > :09:56.to connect with ordinary people in three minutes than we will probably
:09:57. > :09:59.hear in an hour. I've been telling them, made, and we have a commission
:10:00. > :10:05.coming out. People don't want commissions, they want action. I
:10:06. > :10:09.say, I know what we do, housing health, the people. That is our
:10:10. > :10:14.language. That is why we are Labour. That a lot of people run away. I
:10:15. > :10:18.think in Glasgow, they wondered about that. If you turn up on the
:10:19. > :10:22.same three platforms, and I know it's a critical thing to say, they
:10:23. > :10:27.think in Scotland it is a coalition. I don't like coalitions. It looks
:10:28. > :10:32.like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe it was saved because Rupert Murdoch
:10:33. > :10:38.started the The Times about the polls and he couldn't even get the
:10:39. > :10:41.sun to say that they wanted. We haven't got time. I wondered how
:10:42. > :10:47.long it would take is to get to repot Murdoch. You beat the record.
:10:48. > :10:51.-- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is quite behind on the economy, and
:10:52. > :10:54.people are looking at Labour, trying to work out if they can trust you to
:10:55. > :11:01.the stewards of the economy given 2010. Under Labour 's plans there is
:11:02. > :11:06.20 billion of cuts to make in the next Parliament. Will we hear
:11:07. > :11:11.anything about that? It is about the proportion of debt to GDP. I know it
:11:12. > :11:16.sounds historic, but our debt when we came in in 1997 was a proportion
:11:17. > :11:23.of GDP, and you must know this, and that was less than Thatcher's. Why
:11:24. > :11:26.did we get done on debt? You guys run around saying a lot about it,
:11:27. > :11:33.but the fact is it was worse under Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a
:11:34. > :11:37.hero. If you look at the debt, it is still a problem. Gordon Brown did an
:11:38. > :11:41.awful lot to solve those problems, but they were still left with us.
:11:42. > :11:44.What we have to have is a sensible discussion like we had on devolution
:11:45. > :11:49.and now we are talking about finances. Let's look at the public
:11:50. > :11:52.sector debt and the price we pay. We need to be putting the record
:11:53. > :11:56.straight. The problem is they tell me, John, we have to look to the
:11:57. > :11:59.future not the past. We are getting screwed on the past and we have to
:12:00. > :12:05.change it and perhaps Gordon Brown coming in could do something.
:12:06. > :12:10.Finishing on the future, when we did a poll of the Labour candidates you
:12:11. > :12:14.were watching on the big screen when it came up that their favourite
:12:15. > :12:25.to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette Cooper, why did you shout no! That
:12:26. > :12:27.is alive. -- alive. -- that is not true. I know resistance is not
:12:28. > :12:44.strong. What did that mean? You can't get away with anything at
:12:45. > :12:49.a Conference, John. I was dropping comments them to pick up everywhere,
:12:50. > :12:54.I do not wear -- nowhere they got that one from. Good to have you
:12:55. > :12:59.back. Round of applause for former Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for
:13:00. > :13:01.today. Don't applaud them, they are useless.
:13:02. > :13:06.my guests. I'll be back here at Labour conference for the Daily
:13:07. > :13:10.11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring you live coverage of the speech by
:13:11. > :13:15.We're here all week, and next Sunday you can find us in Birmingham for
:13:16. > :13:22.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.