:00:36. > :00:38.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:39. > :00:41.Theresa May says she wants to help people who are
:00:42. > :00:44."just about managing" - so should she reverse
:00:45. > :00:46.George Osborne's cuts to benefits that are supposed to help people
:00:47. > :00:53.Prominent London Imam Shakeel Begg is an extremist speaker,
:00:54. > :00:56.says the High Court, after claims made on this programme.
:00:57. > :01:01.So why is Mr Begg still being allowed to advise the Police?
:01:02. > :01:06.Hillary Clinton fights back over the FBI's renewed investigation
:01:07. > :01:09.into her use of a private email server - is this the boost
:01:10. > :01:13.Donald Trump needed to reignite his chances of winning the White House?
:01:14. > :01:15.On the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire -
:01:16. > :01:21.We take a whistle stop tour round the region to find out just
:01:22. > :01:31.building that runway with the political problems that lie ahead.
:01:32. > :01:33.And haunting the studio on this Halloween weekend,
:01:34. > :01:35.the most terrifying political panel in the business -
:01:36. > :01:39.Tim 'Ghost' Shipman, 'Eerie' Isabel Oakeshott and
:01:40. > :01:47.First this morning, two new models of car to be built,
:01:48. > :01:50.securing 7,000 jobs at the car plant in Sunderland and a further 28, 00
:01:51. > :01:57.The news from Nissan on Thursday was seized on by Leave campaigners
:01:58. > :01:59.as evidence that the British economy is in rude health
:02:00. > :02:03.This morning, the Business Secretary, Greg Clark, was asked
:02:04. > :02:06.what assurances were given to the Japanese firm's bosses
:02:07. > :02:13.Well, it's in no-one's the interest for there to be tariff
:02:14. > :02:18.barriers to the continent and vice versa.
:02:19. > :02:21.So, what I said is that our objective would be to ensure that we
:02:22. > :02:27.have continued access to the markets in Europe and vice versa, without
:02:28. > :02:31.tariffs and without bureaucratic impediments.
:02:32. > :02:34.That is how we will approach those negotiations.
:02:35. > :02:37.We're joined now from Newcastle by the Shadow Business
:02:38. > :02:50.Welcome to the programme. Labour has been a bit sceptical about this
:02:51. > :02:54.Nissan decision. Can we begin by making it clear just what a great
:02:55. > :03:00.achievement this is, above all for the workers of Sunderland who have
:03:01. > :03:04.some of the highest productivity in the world, have never been on strike
:03:05. > :03:11.for 30 years, and produce cars of incredible quality. This is their
:03:12. > :03:14.victory, isn't it? Andrew, you are absolutely right. The Nissan plant
:03:15. > :03:19.in Sunderland is among the most productive in the world. The workers
:03:20. > :03:26.of Nissan are amongst the most productive as well. And it's really
:03:27. > :03:28.a victory for them and for the trade unions and the business
:03:29. > :03:30.organisations, and everybody who campaigned to make sure that the
:03:31. > :03:39.government couldn't ignore their future. It's our future. I'm the MP
:03:40. > :03:42.for Newcastle. It makes a huge difference to the region. We are a
:03:43. > :03:45.region that still likes to make things that work. It is a huge part
:03:46. > :03:51.of our advanced manufacturing sector. So it's really something we
:03:52. > :03:57.welcome as well as the job security. I'm glad we have got that on the
:03:58. > :04:01.record from the Labour shadow business secretary. But your Shadow
:04:02. > :04:05.Chancellor, John McDonnell, claims the government is ignoring
:04:06. > :04:10.manufacturers and cares only about a small banking elite. In what way is
:04:11. > :04:13.safeguarding 30,000 industrial jobs in the North safeguarding a
:04:14. > :04:19.financial elite? As I said, we're really pleased that the campaigning
:04:20. > :04:22.by trade unions and the workforce, and business organisations, meant
:04:23. > :04:26.the government felt they couldn t ignore Nissan workers. Let's also be
:04:27. > :04:30.clear that we want that kind of job security for all of those working in
:04:31. > :04:35.manufacturing and in other sectors as well. And sweetheart deals for
:04:36. > :04:41.one company, no matter how important they are, that does not an
:04:42. > :04:47.industrial strategy make. Why'd you say it is a sweetheart deal? Greg
:04:48. > :04:50.Clark told the BBC this morning that what was assured to Nissan is an
:04:51. > :04:55.assurance he gives to the whole industrial sector? I was really
:04:56. > :05:01.pleased to see Greg Clark felt he had to say something, even though
:05:02. > :05:06.it's sad that we having our industrial strategy, you like, or
:05:07. > :05:11.our approach to Brexit delivered piecemeal to the media rather than
:05:12. > :05:14.to the British people and Nissan, actually. But he want published the
:05:15. > :05:18.letter. He said he has told us what is in the letter and that
:05:19. > :05:24.reassurances given on training, on science and on supporting the supply
:05:25. > :05:29.chain for the automated sector. You must be in favour all -- of all of
:05:30. > :05:35.that? We are in favour of an industrial strategy. Greg Clark
:05:36. > :05:41.unlike Sajid Javid, cannot say industrial strategy. I'm still
:05:42. > :05:46.puzzling to find out what it is you disagree with. Let me put the
:05:47. > :05:52.question. You said the assurances he has given to Nissan are available to
:05:53. > :05:57.the car manufacturing sector in general and indeed to industry in
:05:58. > :06:02.general. What is your problem with that? Two things. Let him publish
:06:03. > :06:07.the letter so we can see that, let him have the transparency he's
:06:08. > :06:12.pretending to offer. But also, we need an industrial strategy that
:06:13. > :06:19.values -- that is values based and joined. He talked about electric
:06:20. > :06:24.cars and supporting green cars. That was in regard to Nissan. At the same
:06:25. > :06:29.time the government has slashed support for other areas of green
:06:30. > :06:36.technology. So what is it? That is not to do with the Nissan deal.
:06:37. > :06:39.Labour implied at some stage there was some financial inducement, some
:06:40. > :06:44.secret bribes, that doesn't seem to be the case. You are not claiming
:06:45. > :06:48.that any more -- any more. Then you claimed it was a sweetheart deal for
:06:49. > :06:56.one company. That turns out not to be the case. What criticism are you
:06:57. > :07:01.left with on this Nissan deal? I would be really surprised if all
:07:02. > :07:05.that Nissan got was the reassurances that Greg Clark is shared with us.
:07:06. > :07:11.He didn't answer the question of what happens if we can't get
:07:12. > :07:14.continued tariff free access to the single market, if we are not within
:07:15. > :07:20.the single market or the Customs Union. Do you really think a
:07:21. > :07:23.negotiator like Nissan, who are very good at negotiating, they would have
:07:24. > :07:29.excepted making this significant investment without some further
:07:30. > :07:32.reassurances? Do you think there is some kind of financial bride and if
:07:33. > :07:37.so what is the evidence? I would like to see the letter published and
:07:38. > :07:42.I would also like to understand what would happen... There are 27
:07:43. > :07:48.countries which need to agree with the deal we have from Brexit. What
:07:49. > :07:53.will Nissan, how will Nissan remain competitive? How will the automotive
:07:54. > :07:58.industry remain competitive? Greg Clark says he reassured them on
:07:59. > :08:06.that. But how will that be so if we do not get access? We haven't heard
:08:07. > :08:10.anything about that. He talks about reassurances given to Nissan. We
:08:11. > :08:14.need to make -- to know where we're going to make sure Brexit is in the
:08:15. > :08:18.interest of all workers, not only those who work for a Nissan and not
:08:19. > :08:24.only those who can get the attention of Greg Clark. He assured Nissan
:08:25. > :08:28.that Britain would remain a competitive place to do business.
:08:29. > :08:31.That was the main assurance he gave them. He would help with skills and
:08:32. > :08:37.infrastructure and all the rest Since you are -- intend to repeal
:08:38. > :08:41.the trade union laws that have made strikes in Britain largely a thing
:08:42. > :08:43.of the past, and you plan to raise corporation tax, you couldn't give
:08:44. > :08:50.Nissan the same assurance, could you? We could absolutely give Nissan
:08:51. > :08:53.the assurance that we will be, our vision of the future of the UK, is
:08:54. > :09:06.based on having a strong manufacturing sector. Repealing
:09:07. > :09:09.trade union laws? As we have seen at Nissan, the industrial sector is
:09:10. > :09:15.dependent on having highly trained, well skilled workers. -- highly
:09:16. > :09:21.skilled, well-trained. You don't have that by getting -- having an
:09:22. > :09:25.aggressive policy and trade union laws or by slashing corporation tax
:09:26. > :09:28.and not supporting manufacturing investment. Remember, the last
:09:29. > :09:34.government took away the Manufacturing allowances which
:09:35. > :09:38.supported Manufacturing and slashed corporation tax. That is their
:09:39. > :09:44.solution. It is a low tax, low skill economy they want.
:09:45. > :09:48.Thank you. Sorry I had to rush you. I'm grateful for you joining us
:09:49. > :09:56.I'm still struggling to see what is left of Labour's criticism? Yeah,
:09:57. > :10:00.except for this. This was a valid point she just made. What we know
:10:01. > :10:05.for sure is that Greg Clark could say to Nissan, my aim is to get
:10:06. > :10:10.tariff free deal. There is no way he could guarantee that. None of us
:10:11. > :10:18.know that. I don't think that was enough. I think clearly there was a
:10:19. > :10:22.more detailed package involving training and other things. He has
:10:23. > :10:26.acknowledged this, albeit we do not know the precise mechanism. What I
:10:27. > :10:29.think is interesting about this is if you reverse what happened this
:10:30. > :10:32.week, at a time when the government says Britain is open for business
:10:33. > :10:37.and it is going to have an industrial strategy, so far it is a
:10:38. > :10:41.bit vaguely defined. Nissan hadn't made this commitment. Imagine what
:10:42. > :10:45.would have happened? It is an impossible scenario. The government
:10:46. > :10:51.seems to me was obliged to make sure this didn't happen. Let's not forget
:10:52. > :10:54.Nissan has invested hundreds of millions in the north-east. It has
:10:55. > :10:59.been a huge success story. When I spoke to workers from Nissan, they
:11:00. > :11:03.were so proud because they went to Japan to teach the Japanese had to
:11:04. > :11:07.be more productive. The idea that Nissan was just going to walk away
:11:08. > :11:12.from this given its track record, its importance, wasn't really
:11:13. > :11:16.credible. The government had some bargaining chips. Absolutely, of
:11:17. > :11:21.course they weren't going to walk away. The majority of people in the
:11:22. > :11:25.area in which Nissan is braced - based, voted for Brexit. Nissan
:11:26. > :11:29.knows it is in a powerful position because it is an emotive sector
:11:30. > :11:33.Clearly the government didn't want to have some big showdown. I
:11:34. > :11:39.honestly don't think this is a smoking gun. The Labour Shadow
:11:40. > :11:42.minister really struggled to articulate what exactly she thinks
:11:43. > :11:47.the government is hiding. I think the reassurances were given were
:11:48. > :11:50.pretty anodyne, really. They were anodyne and general. And what Greg
:11:51. > :11:54.Clark was setting out was an objective and he made the right
:11:55. > :11:58.noises, and Nissan exercised its right to sabre rattle. It does have
:11:59. > :12:03.a history of doing that. The one thing that would now be clear given
:12:04. > :12:06.Greg Clark's performance this morning on the BBC, is that if we
:12:07. > :12:11.were to discover some kind of financial incentive directly linked
:12:12. > :12:16.to this investment, not more for skills or infrastructure, that is
:12:17. > :12:19.fine, but some direct financial investment, compensation for
:12:20. > :12:22.tariffs, which would be illegal under World Trade Organisation
:12:23. > :12:27.rules, what you might call a financial bride, the sect -- the
:12:28. > :12:32.business Secretary's position would be untenable? He would be in a very
:12:33. > :12:36.difficult position indeed. Just released the letter. There is
:12:37. > :12:38.nothing to hide. Put it out there. The most revealing thing is that
:12:39. > :12:43.people are getting wildly excited about the fact Greg Clark announced
:12:44. > :12:49.Britain's negotiating position would be that we would like tariff free
:12:50. > :12:52.trade with Europe. This is regarded as an insight into what this comment
:12:53. > :12:54.is doing and it says a great deal about how little we have been told
:12:55. > :13:00.in Parliament and the media about what they are up. Do you think it is
:13:01. > :13:07.exciting we are going for tariff free trade? We're easily excited
:13:08. > :13:12.these days. We don't know. This is where these things are at such a
:13:13. > :13:15.tentative phase. We don't know how the rest of the European Union is
:13:16. > :13:23.going to respond to Britain's negotiating hand. We know Britain
:13:24. > :13:29.once the best of everything, please. It is a starting point. But that is
:13:30. > :13:30.not how it is going to end up. We are getting wider than that. We have
:13:31. > :13:32.will have to see. Now, Universal Credit,
:13:33. > :13:34.a single payment made to welfare claimants that would roll together
:13:35. > :13:37.a plethora of benefits whilst encouraging people into work
:13:38. > :13:39.by making work pay. But have cuts to the flagship
:13:40. > :13:42.welfare scheme reduced work incentives and hit the incomes
:13:43. > :13:47.of the least well-off? Well, some of the government's
:13:48. > :13:49.own MPs think so, and, as Mark Lobel reports,
:13:50. > :13:56.want the cuts reversed. Theresa May says she wants
:13:57. > :13:59.a country that works for everyone, that's on the side
:14:00. > :14:03.of ordinary, working people. It means never writing off people
:14:04. > :14:06.who can work and consigning them to a life on benefits,
:14:07. > :14:09.but giving them the chance to go out and earn a living and to enjoy
:14:10. > :14:12.the dignity that comes But now some in her party
:14:13. > :14:18.are worried that the low earners will be hit by changes
:14:19. > :14:23.to Universal Credit benefit system originally set up to encourage
:14:24. > :14:25.more people into work. We also need to focus tax credits
:14:26. > :14:28.and Universal Credit Concern centred on the Government's
:14:29. > :14:35.decision in the July 2015 budget to find ?3 billion worth of savings
:14:36. > :14:44.from the Universal Credit bill. Conservative MP Heidi Allen
:14:45. > :14:47.is working on a campaign to get MPs in her party to urge
:14:48. > :14:55.the Prime Minister to think again. I want her to understand for herself
:14:56. > :14:57.what the outcomes might be if we press ahead
:14:58. > :14:59.with the Universal Credit, Do you think Theresa May, right now,
:15:00. > :15:03.understands what you understand To be fair, unless you really
:15:04. > :15:06.get into the detail, and I have through my work
:15:07. > :15:09.on the Work and Pensions Select Committee, I don't
:15:10. > :15:11.think anybody does. Independent economic analysts
:15:12. > :15:17.at the IFS agree with Heidi Alan that cuts to Universal Credit weaken
:15:18. > :15:21.incentives to work. One of the key parts
:15:22. > :15:23.of the Universal Credit system That is how much you can
:15:24. > :15:27.earn before your credit As the Government has
:15:28. > :15:30.sought to save money, both under the Coalition and now
:15:31. > :15:32.they Conservative Government, both under the Coalition and now
:15:33. > :15:34.the Conservative Government, that work allowance has been cut,
:15:35. > :15:36.time and time again. The biggest cuts happened
:15:37. > :15:39.in the summer budget of 2015. That basically reduces the amount
:15:40. > :15:41.of earnings you get to keep It weakens the incentive people have
:15:42. > :15:45.to move into work. What do changes to the Universal
:15:46. > :15:47.Credit system mean? The Resolution Foundation think tank
:15:48. > :15:50.has crunched the numbers. If you compare what would have
:15:51. > :15:54.happened before the July 2015 summer budget to what will happen by 2 20,
:15:55. > :15:57.even if you take into account gains in the National Living Wage
:15:58. > :15:59.and income tax cuts, recipients will be hit
:16:00. > :16:04.by annual deductions. Couples and parents would receive,
:16:05. > :16:08.on average, ?1000 less. A dual-earning couple with two
:16:09. > :16:10.children under four, with one partner working full-time
:16:11. > :16:13.on ?10.50 an hour and the other working part-time on the minimum
:16:14. > :16:16.wage for around 20 hours a week, they would
:16:17. > :16:23.receive ?1800 less. Hit most by the changes
:16:24. > :16:26.would be a single parent with a child under four,
:16:27. > :16:27.working full-time I think, if I'm honest,
:16:28. > :16:41.it is unrealistic, given the economic climate,
:16:42. > :16:44.to expect everything to be reversed. What I would like to see
:16:45. > :16:50.is an increase in the work allowances to those people
:16:51. > :16:53.who will be hardest hit. That is single parents and second
:16:54. > :16:56.earners hoping to return to work, because they are the people we need
:16:57. > :16:58.to absolutely make The Sunday Politics understands that
:16:59. > :17:03.about 15 to 20 Conservative MPs are pushing for changes ahead
:17:04. > :17:06.of the Autumn Statement. A former cabinet minister told us
:17:07. > :17:10.that they believed further impact analysis should be done to find out
:17:11. > :17:13.if any mitigation measures Former Work and Pensions Secretary
:17:14. > :17:19.Iain Duncan Smith, an architect of the system, now says
:17:20. > :17:23.the cuts should be reversed. But his former department has told
:17:24. > :17:28.us that it has no plans to revisit the work allowance changes announced
:17:29. > :17:33.in the budget last year. What I would say to Heidi Allen
:17:34. > :17:37.and IDS, they got it right the first time and they should stick
:17:38. > :17:40.to the vote they cast last year because these reforms actually
:17:41. > :17:41.do make sense. What interests me is the fact
:17:42. > :17:44.we are trying to move people off welfare into work,
:17:45. > :17:47.we are raising the wages people earn by massively increasing
:17:48. > :17:49.the minimum wage and this People are coming off
:17:50. > :17:52.welfare and into work. Campaigners are pushing for savings
:17:53. > :17:55.to come from other areas to relieve The other thing we have to start
:17:56. > :18:01.looking at is the triple Financially it has been a great
:18:02. > :18:05.policy, and it was absolutely right that we lifted pensioners
:18:06. > :18:07.who were significantly behind, for many years, in terms of income
:18:08. > :18:10.levels, but they have I think it is time for us to look
:18:11. > :18:15.at that policy again, because is costing us an awful
:18:16. > :18:17.lot of money. With just over three weeks to wait
:18:18. > :18:20.until the Conservative leadership's new economic plan is unveiled
:18:21. > :18:23.in the Autumn Statement, its top team is under pressure
:18:24. > :18:27.from within its own ranks to use it And I'm joined now by former Work
:18:28. > :18:43.and Pensions Secretary, Welcome back to the programme.
:18:44. > :18:48.Theresa May said she is on the side of the just managing, the working
:18:49. > :18:52.poor. But they are about to be hit from all sides. Their modest living
:18:53. > :18:55.standards are going to be squeezed as inflation overtakes pay rises,
:18:56. > :18:59.they will be further squeezed because top-up benefits in work are
:19:00. > :19:03.frozen. Incentives to work are going to be reduced by the cuts in
:19:04. > :19:09.universal benefits. So much for being on the side of those just
:19:10. > :19:16.managing? Theresa was right to focus on this group. The definition has to
:19:17. > :19:19.be the bottom half, in economic terms, of the social structure. It
:19:20. > :19:23.doesn't look good for them? This is the point I am making, it is an
:19:24. > :19:26.opportunity to put some of this right. One of the reasons I resigned
:19:27. > :19:29.in March is because I felt the direction of travel we had been
:19:30. > :19:33.going in had been to take far too much money out of that group of
:19:34. > :19:37.people when there are other areas which, if you need to make some of
:19:38. > :19:40.those savings, you can. The key bit is that the group needs to be helped
:19:41. > :19:45.through into work and encouraged to stay in work. There was a report
:19:46. > :19:49.done with the IFS, when we were there, at Universal Credit. It said
:19:50. > :19:54.Universal Credit rolled out, as it should have been before the cuts,
:19:55. > :19:58.people would be much more likely to stay in work longer and earn more
:19:59. > :20:03.money. It is a net positive, but that is now called into question.
:20:04. > :20:06.Let's unpick some of the detail but first, do you accept the words of
:20:07. > :20:11.David Willets? It says on the basis of the things I read out to you that
:20:12. > :20:19.the just managing face a significant and painful cut in real terms if we
:20:20. > :20:26.continue on the way we are going. I do, in essence. That is the reason
:20:27. > :20:31.why I resigned. I felt Heidi raised that issue as well, that we got the
:20:32. > :20:34.balance wrong. It is right that pensioners get to a certain point,
:20:35. > :20:40.when they are on a level par, doing the right thing over five years
:20:41. > :20:47.Staying with that process has cost us ?18 billion extra this year, in
:20:48. > :20:53.total. It will go on costing another 5 billion. Then there is the issue
:20:54. > :20:56.of tax allowances. I want to remind you and viewers what David Cameron
:20:57. > :21:03.told the Conservative conference in 2009. If you are a single mother
:21:04. > :21:08.with two children, earning ?150 a week, the withdrawal of your
:21:09. > :21:14.benefits and the additional taxes that you pay me on that for every
:21:15. > :21:21.extra you earn, you keep just 4p. What kind of incentive is that? 30
:21:22. > :21:28.years ago, this party won and election fighting against 98% tax
:21:29. > :21:34.rates for the Rex richest. I want us today to show even more anger about
:21:35. > :21:40.96% tax rates for the very poorest in our country. Real anger, and
:21:41. > :21:46.effective rate of over 90%. Universal Credit reduces that. Some
:21:47. > :21:51.will still face, as they lose benefits and pay tax, a marginal
:21:52. > :21:55.rate of over 75%. That is still too high? Yes, it is the collision
:21:56. > :21:59.between those going into work at the moment they start paying tax. A
:22:00. > :22:05.racial Universal Credit is set at 65%. You can call that the base
:22:06. > :22:10.marginal tax rate. 1.2 million will face 75%? That is the point about
:22:11. > :22:13.why the allowances are so important. The point about the allowances which
:22:14. > :22:18.viewers might not fully understand is that it was set, as part of
:22:19. > :22:21.Universal Credit, to allow you to get certain people, with certain
:22:22. > :22:27.difficulties, as they cross into work, to retain more benefit before
:22:28. > :22:32.it is tapered away as they go up in hours. A lone parent, who might have
:22:33. > :22:35.various issues, you want her to have a bigger incentive than a single
:22:36. > :22:39.person that does not have the same commitments. It is structured so
:22:40. > :22:42.that somebody who has difficulty going to work, they all have
:22:43. > :22:45.slightly different rates. What happened is that last year a
:22:46. > :22:50.decision was taken to reduce tax credits, and, on the back of that,
:22:51. > :22:56.to reduce allowances. I believe given everything that happened now,
:22:57. > :22:58.we need to restore that to the point where it helps those people crossing
:22:59. > :23:01.over. You say a decision was taken, it was a decision by the former
:23:02. > :23:07.Chancellor George Osborne in the summer budget. Other decisions were
:23:08. > :23:11.taken in successive Budgets to raise the Universal Credit budget, which
:23:12. > :23:13.resulted in the disincentive being higher than many people wanted. Do
:23:14. > :23:19.you accept that has been the consequence of his decisions? I was
:23:20. > :23:22.in the Government, we take collective responsibility. I argued
:23:23. > :23:26.this was not the right way to go, but when you are in you have to stay
:23:27. > :23:28.with it if you lose that argument. There was another attempt before the
:23:29. > :23:33.spending review last year to increase the taper, so the marginal
:23:34. > :23:38.rate would have gone up. I managed to stop that. I'm Sibley saying
:23:39. > :23:42.what we made as a decision last year, given the circumstances and
:23:43. > :23:46.given that the net effect of all of that, I think it is time for the
:23:47. > :23:51.Government to ask the question, if we are in this to help that group of
:23:52. > :23:54.people, Universal Credit is singularly the most powerful tool.
:23:55. > :24:00.One of the Argentine aid in the paper published on Thursday, we are
:24:01. > :24:05.set going on doing two more races of the tax threshold, taking more
:24:06. > :24:10.people out of tax. That has a diminishing effect on the bottom
:24:11. > :24:14.section. Only 25p in that tax rate will help any of those. Most of it
:24:15. > :24:19.goes to middle income? You and I will benefit more from that. With
:24:20. > :24:23.Universal Credit, every pound you put into that will go to the bottom
:24:24. > :24:27.five tenths. That is why I designed it like that. He pressed the button
:24:28. > :24:32.and immediately start to changed circumstances. Should the cuts in
:24:33. > :24:35.Universal Credit that Mr Osborne introduced, against your argument,
:24:36. > :24:40.should they be reversed? I believe so. I believe you can do it even if
:24:41. > :24:44.there is concern about spending I don't believe you need to go through
:24:45. > :24:52.with the continuing raise the tax threshold. Cost is dependent on
:24:53. > :24:57.inflation, but give or take. It is in the Tory manifesto? Has more than
:24:58. > :25:01.doubled. What is in the manifesto, and Lasse Prime Minister made this
:25:02. > :25:06.clear in conference, we want to improve the life chances of people.
:25:07. > :25:10.Today's announcement on the Green paper is what I wrote over the last
:25:11. > :25:14.two and a half years. Big changes necessary to how we deal with
:25:15. > :25:18.sickness benefit. That can now be done because of Universal Credit,
:25:19. > :25:22.because people can go back to work and it tapers away their benefits.
:25:23. > :25:26.It is the most powerful tool to sort our people that live in poverty
:25:27. > :25:30.Universal Credit. We need to make sure it lands positively. If Mr
:25:31. > :25:34.Osborne's cuts were reversed, what you and some of your backbench Tory
:25:35. > :25:40.colleagues want to do, how would that improve the incentives of the
:25:41. > :25:44.working poor, as they try to get on in life? They have to pay more tax,
:25:45. > :25:51.they lose some benefits. How would it improve it? Would many still face
:25:52. > :25:55.a 75% rate? The key question is first and foremost, as people move
:25:56. > :25:59.through income to the point where they are getting taxed, that group
:26:00. > :26:03.will be enormously benefited by the re-emergence of these allowances at
:26:04. > :26:09.the right level. That is what the IFS have said, that is what the
:26:10. > :26:12.Resolution Foundation are saying, and the Centre For Social Justice is
:26:13. > :26:16.saying. You have to get that group, because they are most likely to be
:26:17. > :26:20.drifting into poverty and less incomes are right. Would it help
:26:21. > :26:27.those who face a 75% margin? We don't face that. Exactly right.
:26:28. > :26:35.People much poorer than us do. I would love to get the marginal rate
:26:36. > :26:39.down to testify percent, and lower,. -- down to 65%. It is a balance of
:26:40. > :26:44.how you spend the money. I would prefer to do that rather than
:26:45. > :26:51.necessarily go ahead with threshold razors. I think the coronation of
:26:52. > :26:55.the marginal reduction of 65%, getting it down to 60%, plus more
:26:56. > :26:58.allowances, will allow Universal Credit to get to the group that is
:26:59. > :27:03.going to be, and the report written by the IFS and ourselves, it shows
:27:04. > :27:07.it is going to be the most dynamic and direct ability of a Government
:27:08. > :27:13.to be able to influence the way that people improve their incomes in the
:27:14. > :27:19.bottom five deciles. Would you take on extra work if you knew you were
:27:20. > :27:23.going to lose 75% of it? Even 6 %? This has been my argument all along.
:27:24. > :27:28.Universal Credit can help that enormously. One point that goes
:27:29. > :27:32.missing, 70% of the bottom five deciles will be on Universal Credit.
:27:33. > :27:35.Whatever change you make to Universal Credit has a dramatic and
:27:36. > :27:41.immediate effect I am arguing, genuinely, it is time to rethink
:27:42. > :27:44.this. The Prime Minister wants to make this a priority. I am
:27:45. > :27:49.completely with her on this. I think she made a really good start. To
:27:50. > :27:54.deliver this, we need to... You have a lot of work to do to deliver it.
:27:55. > :28:00.Because it is a manifesto commitment, or because they want to
:28:01. > :28:03.do it, stopping increasing the personal allowances are not
:28:04. > :28:05.acceptable, what about bringing to an end, by the end of the
:28:06. > :28:12.parliament, the pension triple lock that pensioners enjoy to improve and
:28:13. > :28:18.put more money to the working poor? What about that? Well, you are
:28:19. > :28:22.absolutely right that there is now the danger, I think, of a mess
:28:23. > :28:26.balance between the generations Quite rightly at the beginning, when
:28:27. > :28:31.we came in, we have a commitment as a Conservative Party in a manifesto
:28:32. > :28:36.to get pensions back onto earnings. It was moved to a triple lock that
:28:37. > :28:40.guaranteed a minimum. What about ending up now? I understand it is a
:28:41. > :28:44.promise through the Parliament, but after 2020? I am in favour of
:28:45. > :28:48.getting it back to innings and allowing it to rise at reasonable
:28:49. > :28:54.levels. Moving from earnings to the triple lock has cost ?18 billion
:28:55. > :28:57.this year. Here was a high, under pressure, as the Government was
:28:58. > :29:01.scratching around to pay more money out of working age areas, when the
:29:02. > :29:05.budget was almost out of control on the pension side. I'm in favour of
:29:06. > :29:09.helping pensioners, but now they are up to a reasonable level, at a
:29:10. > :29:13.steady rate, that can be afforded by Government, which takes the pressure
:29:14. > :29:15.off, working age people have to pay for that. In years to come, time to
:29:16. > :29:29.end the triple lock and use the savings to help these
:29:30. > :29:32.people we have been talking about? As part of a load of packages, yes.
:29:33. > :29:32.It would also help with the intergenerational fairness argument.
:29:33. > :29:36.Thank you for being with us. Now, a prominent London Imam
:29:37. > :29:38.called Shakeel Begg - who is Chief Imam the Lewisham
:29:39. > :29:41.Islamic Centre - is an extremist. That was the verdict of the judge
:29:42. > :29:44.in a libel action that Mr Begg took against the BBC, after we described
:29:45. > :29:47.him as an Islamic extremist Mr Begg had complained about a short
:29:48. > :29:51.segment in an interview in November 2013 with Farooq Murad,
:29:52. > :29:54.the then head of the Muslim Council of Britain, an organisation
:29:55. > :29:56.which claims to represent British In that interview, we described
:29:57. > :30:02.Mr Begg as an extremist speaker who had hailed jihad
:30:03. > :30:05.is the greatest of deeds. From his base of the Lewisham
:30:06. > :30:08.Islamic Centre, Mr Begg has been involved in a number of community
:30:09. > :30:12.organisations, including the Police Independent
:30:13. > :30:15.Advisory Group in Lewisham, Lewisham Council's Advisory Council
:30:16. > :30:20.on Religious Education and as a volunteer chaplain
:30:21. > :30:22.at Lewisham Hospital. But in his judgment,
:30:23. > :30:28.Mr Justice Haddon-Cave called Mr Begg a Jekyll and Hyde character
:30:29. > :30:31.- a trusted figure in his local community, but when talking
:30:32. > :30:34.to predominantly Muslim audiences he shed the cloak of respectability
:30:35. > :30:39.and revealed the horns of extremism. The judge cited one speech made
:30:40. > :30:42.by Mr Begg at a rally outside Belmarsh Prisonm-
:30:43. > :30:45.the high security prison that houses terrorists -
:30:46. > :30:48.as particularly sinister. The judge said the imam
:30:49. > :30:51.was expressing admiration and praise Following Friday's judgment,
:30:52. > :30:57.the hospital trust have told us that Mr Begg's status as a voluntary
:30:58. > :31:01.chaplain has been terminated. We have been told by
:31:02. > :31:05.Lewisham Council he is no longer on their Religious
:31:06. > :31:06.Education Committee. The Metropolitan Police
:31:07. > :31:08.have confirmed that Mr Begg remains a member
:31:09. > :31:13.of their Independent Advisory Group in Lewisham, as well as
:31:14. > :31:25.the borough's faith group. I am joined by Haras Rafiq, chief
:31:26. > :31:33.executive of the Quilliam Foundation. Welcome to the
:31:34. > :31:36.programme. I have here in my hand a statement from the trustees of the
:31:37. > :31:41.Lewisham Islamic Centre. They reject the judge's ruling as fanciful and
:31:42. > :31:46.say they are unequivocal and unwavering in their support of
:31:47. > :31:51.Shakeel Begg as their head imam What do you make of that? To be
:31:52. > :31:56.honest, it doesn't surprise me. At the end of the day he is only the
:31:57. > :32:01.imam of that mosque because he belongs to the same theological
:32:02. > :32:04.fundamentalist views that the mosque would portray. If they were to say
:32:05. > :32:09.he was an extremist, they would be saying in fact that they have
:32:10. > :32:13.allowed extremist preaching and extremist theology within their
:32:14. > :32:21.walls. I think this is a very important decision and a very
:32:22. > :32:24.important judgment by the judge First of all, these people like to
:32:25. > :32:30.operate in a linear, under a veneer of respectability. When that veneer
:32:31. > :32:34.is taken away, there are a number of things that can happen. First of
:32:35. > :32:40.all, the BBC did very well to stand by their guns and say, we're not
:32:41. > :32:44.going to be intimidated by somebody who is threatening to taking -- to
:32:45. > :32:49.take us to court for potential libel. Many other media companies
:32:50. > :32:54.have done that in the past and people have capitulated. Also, this
:32:55. > :32:59.has exposed him. Legally now, here's some deal can be classified as an
:33:00. > :33:03.extremist preacher, somebody who promotes religious violence. I think
:33:04. > :33:08.the mosque really needs to take a step back and say, how we part of
:33:09. > :33:11.the problem that we are facing within society? Or are we going to
:33:12. > :33:20.be part of the solution? It really concerns me. The High Court judge
:33:21. > :33:26.says that Mr Begg's speeches were consistent with an extremist
:33:27. > :33:35.Salafist is the most worldview. What is Salafist is and how widespread is
:33:36. > :33:41.it in UK mosques? -- mosque. It comes from the Middle East. It is
:33:42. > :33:49.from Saudi Arabia. The enemy for them was the old colonial Ottoman
:33:50. > :33:53.Empire. There is the quiet Salafist to get some with their lives, lives
:33:54. > :33:57.outside society. There is a revolutionary who tries to convert
:33:58. > :34:03.other people to their worldview And then there is the Salafist jihad
:34:04. > :34:07.ease. People like Islamic State etc. We have seen of increased in recent
:34:08. > :34:13.decades because of money that has, growing from the Middle East. When
:34:14. > :34:17.that is mixed with a political ideology, it becomes potent. Do we
:34:18. > :34:22.have a political -- particular problem in Britain with this in our
:34:23. > :34:26.mosques? Absolutely. Without the theology that says hate the other,
:34:27. > :34:30.hate other Muslims, that excommunicate other people, that
:34:31. > :34:34.says it is OK to fight and is good to fight when you have got an enemy,
:34:35. > :34:40.we wouldn't really have a jihadi problem. Really that is something we
:34:41. > :34:45.have to tackle. The number of mosques and institutions supporting
:34:46. > :34:51.Salafist and Islam is has been on the increase. Do we have a problem
:34:52. > :34:55.with what the judge called Jekyll and Hyde characters who hide their
:34:56. > :35:02.extremism except when they are speaking to specific groups?
:35:03. > :35:06.Absolutely. One of the things we have focused on in the past, a
:35:07. > :35:10.number of hate preachers now in prison, people like Anjem Choudary,
:35:11. > :35:14.and everybody focused on them. But there is a range of people operating
:35:15. > :35:19.under that level. People who will show one face to the community
:35:20. > :35:23.because they actually need that for a respectability. They need that for
:35:24. > :35:26.a legitimacy. They need that to operate. When they are behind closed
:35:27. > :35:30.doors and talking to their constitution, that is when you will
:35:31. > :35:36.see the real face of what these people believe. It is an increasing
:35:37. > :35:44.phenomenon. We are seeing it more. And we're going to carry on seeing
:35:45. > :35:49.it. Not just has the Lewisham mosque stuck by him, but given the clarity
:35:50. > :35:51.of the judge's ruling, are you surprised that the Metropolitan
:35:52. > :35:55.police would wish to continue with Mr Begg as an adviser? I'm
:35:56. > :35:59.absolutely shocked that that decision. What Uzzy going to do
:36:00. > :36:04.Advise them on how to deal with extremist preachers and promote
:36:05. > :36:09.religiously motivated violence? I don't know what he's going to advise
:36:10. > :36:13.them on. Because we now have a judge that has ruled against him and
:36:14. > :36:17.actually classified him as an extremist and somebody who promotes
:36:18. > :36:21.religious violence, we actually have a possibility for the CPS to
:36:22. > :36:25.actually prosecute him. There is a law that has been in place since
:36:26. > :36:30.2005 called religiously motivated violence. If he has been classified
:36:31. > :36:36.as somebody who promotes this, there is a potential for the CPS to
:36:37. > :36:37.prosecute. I want to called into question other organisations,
:36:38. > :36:44.interfaith organisations, other Muslims groups, who say they want to
:36:45. > :36:48.fight extremism, I call on them to say, this guy is an extremist
:36:49. > :36:57.preacher, we should cut our ties from him. This was a very high risk
:36:58. > :37:04.strategy by the BBC. The exposure could have been over ?1.5 million of
:37:05. > :37:08.licence payers money. Will this make it more difficult for Jekyll and
:37:09. > :37:14.Hyde characters to behave as Mr Begg has behaved? Absolutely. It will do.
:37:15. > :37:20.One of the things they will now have to make sure is that they are a lot
:37:21. > :37:24.more careful. Careful with what they say to their own constituency. It
:37:25. > :37:30.won't solve the theological problem. But it will actually stop other
:37:31. > :37:33.people from operating in this manner and allow other media organisations
:37:34. > :37:35.to have the confidence to expose them when they do. Haras Rafiq,
:37:36. > :37:38.thank you for joining us. It's just gone 11.35,
:37:39. > :37:40.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:37:41. > :37:43.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,
:37:44. > :37:54.the Week Ahead. Hello, you're watching
:37:55. > :37:56.the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire
:37:57. > :37:58.and the north midlands. Coming up today: The high
:37:59. > :38:01.cost of help at home, bill and can we avoid
:38:02. > :38:06.a crisis in the care sector? As devolution hits the buffdrs
:38:07. > :38:09.here in Lincolnshire, we are taking a look at what's
:38:10. > :38:13.happening across our region. It was meant to be
:38:14. > :38:15.a revolution in local Government with elected mayors
:38:16. > :38:18.getting more power and more money from Whitehall, but is
:38:19. > :38:24.the devolution dream falling apart? We are joined today by Toby Perkins,
:38:25. > :38:28.Labour MP for Chesterfield, Liberal Democrat Baroness Kath Pinnock,
:38:29. > :38:34.and joining us from Boston Conservative MP for
:38:35. > :38:40.Boston and Skegness. I'll ask you, what's ben thd
:38:41. > :38:44.political highlight of your week? I think the thing that's re`lly
:38:45. > :38:49.stood out for me is the opposition Sometimes politics are about
:38:50. > :38:52.putting things right. One of our local MPs has
:38:53. > :38:55.led our campaign to get Concentrix chucked out of the job
:38:56. > :38:58.that they were doing, which was costing many of m`ny
:38:59. > :39:01.constituents tax credits, some really poor quality work that
:39:02. > :39:04.had been done there. And it shows that Government don't
:39:05. > :39:06.always get it right, but sometimes politicians c`n bring
:39:07. > :39:09.about pressure and get things changed and that's been
:39:10. > :39:10.a real success this week. Highlight of the week for you,
:39:11. > :39:13.Baronness Pinnock? I was going to tell you that
:39:14. > :39:16.being back in Yorkshire and going to a concert
:39:17. > :39:20.by the Huddersfield Choral Society, but you've changed
:39:21. > :39:24.the question to politics. I think the fact that the Government
:39:25. > :39:28.is ditching its forced academy of all our schools,
:39:29. > :39:34.that for me was good news. And of course we hope you enjoy the
:39:35. > :39:37.Huddersfield Choral Society. And your political
:39:38. > :39:41.highlight, Matt Warman? Well, if you want a politic`l one,
:39:42. > :39:44.I think it's finally the decision on Heathrow to go ahead and make
:39:45. > :39:47.a decision that we've Actually, I think it was picking my
:39:48. > :39:52.own pumpkin here in Lincolnshire But 500,000 pumpkins have bden
:39:53. > :40:03.picked in these very farms. We should get excited
:40:04. > :40:07.about that as well. An insight into Halloween
:40:08. > :40:16.at the Warman household. Now, it's something that
:40:17. > :40:18.will happen to most of us. We get old and many of us
:40:19. > :40:21.will eventually need care. Most people prefer to stay
:40:22. > :40:23.in their own homes. For most people, it's
:40:24. > :40:26.their local council who, after years of austerity,
:40:27. > :40:29.are worried about further ctts Now, the companies who provhde
:40:30. > :40:33.the care say they're not getting paid enough and some are pulling out
:40:34. > :40:35.of council contracts. A knock at the door that makes life
:40:36. > :40:44.so much better for Brian. The 80-year-old former scaffolder
:40:45. > :40:46.was paralysed from the waist down after an industrial accident
:40:47. > :40:48.25 years ago. Now living alone in his Wakdfield
:40:49. > :40:56.bungalow, he needs help so he can do the most basic things that people
:40:57. > :41:00.usually take for granted. I'm just going to put my apron
:41:01. > :41:21.on so I can empty your leg bag. Amanda is a carer with
:41:22. > :41:27.a private agency contracted Brian is one of as many as ten
:41:28. > :41:32.clients she'll visit every day. The work can be physically
:41:33. > :41:35.demanding and carers providd But wages are still at the linimum
:41:36. > :41:43.rate of ?7.20 an hour. The result - turnover of st`ff
:41:44. > :41:47.leaving the job is high, retention low, and the carers know
:41:48. > :41:51.exactly why that is. You are dealing with people's lives
:41:52. > :42:03.and it is quite an important job. We welcome the National Livhng Wage,
:42:04. > :42:06.but all that means is it's put We need to be paying care staff
:42:07. > :42:10.who do a fantastic job, more than ?7.20 but we're
:42:11. > :42:13.stuck in that cycle now. It means the public,
:42:14. > :42:17.the taxpayer, whatever it is, locally or nationally,
:42:18. > :42:20.needs to pay more. Ultimately, local authoritids
:42:21. > :42:22.are responsible for the fees and the industry has surveydd them
:42:23. > :42:26.to find out exactly how The agencies say that providing care
:42:27. > :42:32.in people's homes in streets They have to provide
:42:33. > :42:37.training for their staff. They have to provide travel
:42:38. > :42:40.time for their staff They reckon that in order to do
:42:41. > :42:46.that and make a profit, they ought to be paid
:42:47. > :42:51.the equivalent of ?16.70 an hour. But according to this latest survey,
:42:52. > :42:58.local authorities pay them ?14. 6, and across Yorkshire, even lower
:42:59. > :43:04.than that - ?14.11 an hour. We all know the country's bden
:43:05. > :43:07.having to live within its mdans over the last few years and what we tried
:43:08. > :43:11.to do is put as much money So we've protected budgets
:43:12. > :43:15.where we can, we've put mord money into prevention and we have put more
:43:16. > :43:19.money into care fees. But we only have a limited pot
:43:20. > :43:23.of money available to fund services. All this creates a daily struggle
:43:24. > :43:28.for agencies trying to keep up with increasing demand but `lso
:43:29. > :43:31.to recruit and retain Recruitment, it's
:43:32. > :43:38.a full-time job in itself. And then to retain the staff that
:43:39. > :43:41.you actually recruit, again, that's another full-time
:43:42. > :43:44.job in itself. The way that these girls ard paid,
:43:45. > :43:48.they're paid minimum wage. Quite fortunate that our girls
:43:49. > :43:50.are paid travel time But how can you encourage pdople
:43:51. > :43:58.to come and stay at your colpany to work for minimum wage
:43:59. > :44:01.for the amount of responsibhlity It requires people with
:44:02. > :44:09.compassion and patience. Getting the right calibre of people
:44:10. > :44:12.and more of them is really going to be very important
:44:13. > :44:15.because one thing we do know - the population is ageing,
:44:16. > :44:20.so this sort of service in the home Kath Pinnock, is it right that nine
:44:21. > :44:29.out of ten councils are payhng below Don't think you can say it's
:44:30. > :44:36.below the minimum price. What their association
:44:37. > :44:39.considers the minimum price. They're a company and have got
:44:40. > :44:45.to cover their costs and make a profit for their owners and ? 4.10
:44:46. > :44:51.is what the council pays for social care and I think what we have
:44:52. > :44:55.to consider is the equation that we have here, which is number
:44:56. > :45:00.of older people going up and the number of older people
:45:01. > :45:05.needing care going up, the amount of money coming
:45:06. > :45:08.into councils to help pay This is traditionally
:45:09. > :45:13.a low wage industry. But many care providers say they've
:45:14. > :45:16.been hit by the introduction How do we ensure, Toby,
:45:17. > :45:21.that care providers don't ptll out of contracts with councils
:45:22. > :45:25.and people are left without care? You saw there what is expected
:45:26. > :45:32.of carers, they're going into the most intimate
:45:33. > :45:35.of circumstances, people's houes around the community, often late
:45:36. > :45:39.at night or early in the morning, I think they do a vital job
:45:40. > :45:42.and our health service I just think we need to pay
:45:43. > :45:47.it more as a society. We had a plan at the last election
:45:48. > :45:50.about bringing social care and health together,
:45:51. > :45:53.valuing social care in the same Until we do that as a society,
:45:54. > :45:58.and as a political class, these The arguments often put forward
:45:59. > :46:03.Matt, is that cutting social care can often be a false
:46:04. > :46:06.economy because it puts Do you believe that social care
:46:07. > :46:12.particularly home care, I think what we need to do hs not
:46:13. > :46:19.only make sure we fund soci`l care and adult social care,
:46:20. > :46:21.in particular, properly but we also get that link
:46:22. > :46:25.between the health service right. Because this isn't simply
:46:26. > :46:28.about making sure we put more money into the pot,
:46:29. > :46:31.it's about making sure we gdt an efficient use of that money
:46:32. > :46:34.because it's often social c`re and delays in social care
:46:35. > :46:36.that are meaning people are staying longer in hospital,
:46:37. > :46:39.it costs more money It's about getting that intdrface
:46:40. > :46:44.right and there is in that sense, To go back to Toby's
:46:45. > :46:49.point around getting the relationship between social care
:46:50. > :46:52.and the health service right. But, Kath, many people
:46:53. > :46:55.now are paying 2% extra on their council tax bills,
:46:56. > :46:57.it's what councils How do we know that money
:46:58. > :47:04.is being used properly? Because the Government
:47:05. > :47:06.has said it's a preset, so it's not in the general council
:47:07. > :47:11.tax pot and it has to be accounted for in spending
:47:12. > :47:17.on adult social care. We know that our councils are being
:47:18. > :47:23.squeezed and there's plenty And, unfortunately, it's now hitting
:47:24. > :47:33.adult social care and the ilpact is on the old folk themselvdss,
:47:34. > :47:38.but also the NHS, and that's putting Matt, the Local Government
:47:39. > :47:46.Association estimates there is a ?2.6 billion funding gap
:47:47. > :47:50.when it comes to social card. Will your new chancellor,
:47:51. > :47:53.Phillip Hammond, be prepared to look at this in next
:47:54. > :47:58.month's autumn statement? If I'm honest, I hope
:47:59. > :48:01.that's the case. I think what we should be looking
:48:02. > :48:05.at is how do we make sure that local councils have got the resources
:48:06. > :48:08.they need to do this, which is probably the singld biggest
:48:09. > :48:13.issue that comes to me when it But for me this is as much
:48:14. > :48:18.about getting the relationship between the health service
:48:19. > :48:21.and local councils right Now, devolution was meant to create
:48:22. > :48:32.a revolution in local Government. Large city regions with control over
:48:33. > :48:34.things like transport, planning skills and housing,
:48:35. > :48:37.and a directly elected mayor controlling millions of pounds
:48:38. > :48:40.of extra Government money, but it's not yet in our
:48:41. > :48:43.part of the world. We'll ask why in a moment,
:48:44. > :48:45.but first our political reporters right across the patch tell us
:48:46. > :48:56.where we are. Just a few weeks ago,
:48:57. > :48:58.it looked as though devoluthon was definitely coming
:48:59. > :49:01.to Lincolnshire, but in the past week, two council leaders
:49:02. > :49:05.have been instructed Residents were being told jtst don't
:49:06. > :49:12.want an elected mayor. So the eight remaining
:49:13. > :49:15.councils are wondering There are still hopes that the two
:49:16. > :49:19.councils will sign up if the Government offers
:49:20. > :49:22.new incentives or it could be that the eight remaining approach
:49:23. > :49:28.Whitehall with a bid of thehr own, or it could just be
:49:29. > :49:35.that the deal is off. Here in East Yorkshire,
:49:36. > :49:38.it's all talk and at There have been proposals
:49:39. > :49:42.for Hull to become part of the Leeds City Region bid,
:49:43. > :49:45.and for East Riding to join up But both Hull city council
:49:46. > :49:50.and the East Riding of Yorkshire council say discussions
:49:51. > :49:53.are still ongoing and no Here in West Yorkshire,
:49:54. > :50:02.the script has had as many twists and turns as a play by the great
:50:03. > :50:05.Leeds writer, Alan Bennett. And we're still waiting
:50:06. > :50:08.for a deal to be signed. It all comes down to the cotncils
:50:09. > :50:11.not being able to agree on how Does West Yorkshire go with a couple
:50:12. > :50:15.of its North Yorkshire neighbours on the Leeds City Region de`l,
:50:16. > :50:19.or does it pitch in with North and East Yorkshire on an arrangement
:50:20. > :50:24.known as Greater Yorkshire? Sources tell me that lively behind
:50:25. > :50:26.closed doors debates are going on about what powdrs
:50:27. > :50:29.an elected mayor should havd. Meanwhile, a now out of datd deal
:50:30. > :50:33.based on the West Yorkshire combined authority is moldering away
:50:34. > :50:38.in various desk drawers. Sheffield has got the ball rolling
:50:39. > :50:42.on a deal, which includes Doncaster, Barnsley, Rotherham and possibly
:50:43. > :50:48.Chesterfield and Bassetlaw. The city region is on the brink
:50:49. > :50:51.of signing off draft orders from the Government,
:50:52. > :50:54.which would give an elected mayor powers over raising
:50:55. > :51:06.and spending money. And over planning, transport and
:51:07. > :51:11.skills. But it's not a done deal yet. A row is brewing over whether
:51:12. > :51:15.it Chesterfield will be included. That fight goes to the High Court in
:51:16. > :51:18.November and there is also uncertainty over whether Bassetlaw
:51:19. > :51:22.joins two. If you want the largest joins two. If you want the largest
:51:23. > :51:25.number of possible deals thdn come to North Yorkshire. The gre`ter
:51:26. > :51:30.Yorkshire bid includes everxwhere apart from South Yorkshire `nd that
:51:31. > :51:34.has a lot of support here. But if the Leeds city region bid goes
:51:35. > :51:39.ahead, then that takes part of North Yorkshire with it too. Therd is a
:51:40. > :51:44.third option on the table and that would be for York, North Yorkshire
:51:45. > :51:48.and east riding. But if the Sheffield deal falls through and
:51:49. > :51:52.these work out, there is a possibility of a fourth moddl. That
:51:53. > :51:54.would be devolution for the whole of Yorkshire. Still not a lot of
:51:55. > :52:05.talking to be done on that one. I'm glad that's all clear. Why,
:52:06. > :52:09.apart from South Yorkshire, have council leaders and the rest of
:52:10. > :52:13.Yorkshire failed to agree on a deal? I don't think the failed to agree on
:52:14. > :52:18.a deal. I think they've been handed cards from the Government which
:52:19. > :52:24.when you play them out, don't add up to very much because the Ledds city
:52:25. > :52:29.region, the five west Yorkshire that works well. But then what
:52:30. > :52:36.happens to the rest of Yorkshire? I have a lot of sympathy with the idea
:52:37. > :52:41.of a greater Yorkshire model. That gives us a population size near
:52:42. > :52:50.enough that of Scotland. It also maybe gives us the play we can have
:52:51. > :52:53.with those down in London. Toby are you convinced the Sheffield city
:52:54. > :52:57.region deal will go ahead as planned? And would include
:52:58. > :53:01.Chesterfield? I'm not certahn that well. I think it appears from the
:53:02. > :53:04.Government's perspective th`t devolution is the only show in town,
:53:05. > :53:11.we decide between local authority spending the additional part here or
:53:12. > :53:15.it can continue to get spent if at all by Whitehall. I think in the
:53:16. > :53:19.Derbyshire area, Nottinghamshire, the deal is going nowhere.
:53:20. > :53:23.right conclusion to join thd right conclusion to join thd
:53:24. > :53:26.Sheffield city region but wd made it absolutely clear, this doesn't mean
:53:27. > :53:30.Chesterfield is leaving Derbyshire and joining Sheffield. We'vd seen a
:53:31. > :53:34.Sheffield nibble away at Derbyshire over the years and we will be an
:53:35. > :53:38.equal partner as part of thd Sheffield city region but I'm not
:53:39. > :53:43.convinced by the mayoral part of it although that appears it max be what
:53:44. > :53:48.the deal has to involve. Conservative run Lincolnshire County
:53:49. > :53:51.Council,, your authority, h`d just rejected the deal put forward to
:53:52. > :53:56.them by Government. That is hardly a vote of confidence in devolttion, is
:53:57. > :54:02.it? Eight out of ten Lincolnshire Council has voted for it. Not the
:54:03. > :54:06.county council. At least ond of those does go for it as well.
:54:07. > :54:09.Ultimately, this is a good deal that was negotiated by all ten ldaders,
:54:10. > :54:13.including the county council. It's including the county council. It's
:54:14. > :54:16.disappointing they haven't voted for it but I genuinely hope we're going
:54:17. > :54:20.to get this over the line bdcause it means hundreds of millions of pounds
:54:21. > :54:24.extra for a county that historically does not have the investment that it
:54:25. > :54:28.deserves. It is a huge opportunity and I really hope that we whll be
:54:29. > :54:33.able to get over the line. There seems to be widespread opposition to
:54:34. > :54:38.this idea of a directly elected mayor. If you look at the ddtails of
:54:39. > :54:42.the consultation, there was widespread support for devolution,
:54:43. > :54:47.marginally across the whole of Lincolnshire a preference not to
:54:48. > :54:51.have a mayor. What the mayor gives you, one is access to the htndreds
:54:52. > :54:55.of millions of pounds and it gives you an individual who is accountable
:54:56. > :55:00.for the decisions that are lade rather than someone who is
:55:01. > :55:04.relatively remote in Whiteh`ll. I think it is not only... Somd people
:55:05. > :55:08.think of it as a price worth paying, I think it's actually a
:55:09. > :55:11.straightforward good thing `nd I think it gives us access not only to
:55:12. > :55:16.increase power, it will also increase money then we should be
:55:17. > :55:20.grasping at with both hands. And is a directly elected mayor in price
:55:21. > :55:24.worth paying, do you believd? It's a choice between that and not having
:55:25. > :55:28.the devolution, absolutely. We want to see local authorities working
:55:29. > :55:33.close together. We have manx shared agendas with Sheffield and the rest
:55:34. > :55:37.of South Yorkshire, we will also continue to have a relationship with
:55:38. > :55:42.the rest of Derbyshire are. Most important thing is that there is
:55:43. > :55:45.money devolved to our local areas because we know better how to spend
:55:46. > :55:49.an Whitehall. If the mayor hs the only way of achieving that, then the
:55:50. > :55:52.mayor from a price worth paxing It gives people a vote and the
:55:53. > :55:58.decisions that that person lakes with the money that is devolved to.
:55:59. > :56:00.The Government have looked `t places like Manchester, Liverpool,
:56:01. > :56:05.Birmingham, Newcastle who h`ve all gone for devolution deals whth
:56:06. > :56:08.directly elected mayors. And yet Yorkshire, most of Yorkshird,
:56:09. > :56:14.hasn't. You must think they are it is stubborn lot in Yorkshird? Quite
:56:15. > :56:19.right too. People in Yorkshhre know that the idea of elected maxor in
:56:20. > :56:22.the west Yorkshire case, probably a Leeds prison and the rest of us who
:56:23. > :56:26.don't live in Leeds, think, does that mean we are going to gdt ruled
:56:27. > :56:30.by leaps and quite rightly H think that we are not sure that that
:56:31. > :56:40.works. The debate will go on no doubt. Let's get the Belind` Bencic
:56:41. > :56:47.two seconds. -- here is the round-up. The Grantham and Stanford
:56:48. > :56:52.NT is starting treatment for a cancerous tumour in his head. Nine
:56:53. > :56:56.diagnosed with Hodgkin's lylphoma. diagnosed with Hodgkin's lylphoma.
:56:57. > :57:00.Labour has been fined ?20,000 by the electoral commission for fahling to
:57:01. > :57:04.declare all of its general dlection expenses, including the Ed Stone.
:57:05. > :57:10.The former Labour leader and Doncaster North MP that part of his
:57:11. > :57:15.party's election pledges into the stone tablet. Stephen Wolf's
:57:16. > :57:19.altercation at the European Parliament in Strasbourg is to be
:57:20. > :57:26.investigated by French police, and kernel you kept enquiry has been
:57:27. > :57:31.given a formal reprimand. And sport Minister, Tracy Crouch, was in
:57:32. > :57:34.Sheffield this week to open the football Association's ?200 million
:57:35. > :57:39.project to build 13 new all,weather facilities across England. The Hull
:57:40. > :57:49.University graduate is a kedn footballer, but is she this good?
:57:50. > :57:53.What is your record for QPR please? May be just about as good as
:57:54. > :57:59.Tracey's she might have had little bit of help the TV. On a football
:58:00. > :58:05.related theme, you have been calling for Russia to be stripped of hosting
:58:06. > :58:09.the 2018 World Cup? Is that likely to happen? I'm not sure is likely to
:58:10. > :58:12.happen. We're hearing from the Government having to take Rtssia
:58:13. > :58:17.seriously the sanctions of the rest of the world is talking abott. The
:58:18. > :58:22.Prime Minister declined this week to pressure Spain not to refuel the
:58:23. > :58:26.Russian warship that's going back to cause mayhem in Syria and wd've also
:58:27. > :58:29.had -- heard nothing from Government about putting pressure on the phone
:58:30. > :58:33.to strip rush at the World Cup. I think it should happen and the rest
:58:34. > :58:37.of the world to be sending ` message to Russia but I'm not confident it
:58:38. > :58:42.will. Should Russia lose thd next six World Cup? Just going b`ck to
:58:43. > :58:46.what will be said, that ship is now not going to be refuelled in Spain
:58:47. > :58:49.and that is the result of international pressure. To be
:58:50. > :58:52.honest, we've got so much more pressing problems around a
:58:53. > :59:00.relationship with Russia and the World Cup. We are seeing a resurgent
:59:01. > :59:05.Russia that needs to be reined in by a united approach from across the
:59:06. > :59:08.western world. Brexit is sthll dominating the political he`dlines.
:59:09. > :59:12.Tony Blair, former prime ministers, you might remember him, is seeing
:59:13. > :59:19.again this should be a second referendum! How will that go down
:59:20. > :59:22.for 55% of people voted to leave the EU in your constituency? I'l not
:59:23. > :59:28.sure Tony Blair said a second referendum, he said people should
:59:29. > :59:35.have another say. -- buyers are not a second referendum? It could a
:59:36. > :59:39.general election. I do think that people have a right to make their
:59:40. > :59:44.first choice, which is what we've got to respect and then when things
:59:45. > :59:51.pan out, when the petrol prhces go up and food prices go up and maybe
:59:52. > :59:55.not the case. Mess and are hnvesting not the case. Mess and are hnvesting
:59:56. > :00:02.in the country. The Governmdnt has piled some cash in there. Ghve us a
:00:03. > :00:08.couple of years before we actually signed the deal, and another chance.
:00:09. > :00:11.Second referendum, yes or no? I don't think we should be st`rting
:00:12. > :00:16.from that point. We should be trying to get the best deal we can. You
:00:17. > :00:19.represent the most brutal Brexit constituency in the country. What
:00:20. > :00:25.would be the message there to Tony Blair? The message to Tony Blair
:00:26. > :00:28.wouldn't be broadcast on a family programme. We can certainly say that
:00:29. > :00:35.the messages that the will of the people should be respected. Thank
:00:36. > :00:39.Baroness. You can find out lore Baroness. You can find out lore
:00:40. > :00:46.about a difficult week for xou kept in the European Parliament over the
:00:47. > :00:56.past few days by reading thd blog. With
:00:57. > :01:01.Barely more than a week now until polling day,
:01:02. > :01:11.and a new revelation rocks the US Presidential election campaign.
:01:12. > :01:14.If it wasn't bizarre enough, it just got more bizarre.
:01:15. > :01:16.The FBI have reopened their investigation into Hillary Clinton's
:01:17. > :01:18.use of private email servers whilst she was Secretary
:01:19. > :01:26.of State, after the discovery of further emails.
:01:27. > :01:31.Though not on her laptop or even the State Department.
:01:32. > :01:34.Donald Trump is saying that it's bigger than Watergate -
:01:35. > :01:36.so could it swing the election in his favour?
:01:37. > :01:38.We spoke to top US pollster, Frank Luntz.
:01:39. > :01:42.The FBI investigation is happening so late in the election process
:01:43. > :01:46.that it would be very difficult to derail a Clinton victory.
:01:47. > :01:49.That said, if there is one thing that could keep Hillary Clinton
:01:50. > :01:54.from the presidency, it's an FBI investigation.
:01:55. > :01:57.But there's still only four states that really matter, Florida, Ohio,
:01:58. > :02:02.Right now, Clinton has beyond the margin of error leads
:02:03. > :02:09.This would have to have a truly significant impact for the election
:02:10. > :02:16.There is a point about a week ago when I was prepared to say that
:02:17. > :02:22.Clinton had a 95% chance of winning this election.
:02:23. > :02:28.Based on what has happened in the last 48 hours,
:02:29. > :02:32.It is still very likely, but I wouldn't bet on it.
:02:33. > :02:36.I thought the 2000 election would be the best election of my lifetime,
:02:37. > :02:40.And then I thought 2008 would be amazing, because we had two
:02:41. > :02:44.challenger candidates and the first African-American President.
:02:45. > :02:53.It is ugly, it's painful, it is as negative as anything
:02:54. > :02:59.The public is angry, the country, overall, is frustrated.
:03:00. > :03:06.But for entertainment value, these candidates probably should
:03:07. > :03:09.have charged us money, because it's better than any movie
:03:10. > :03:11.at ever seen, it's better than any TV show.
:03:12. > :03:23.That was Frank Luntz. He may be right or wrong about Mrs Clinton
:03:24. > :03:32.still having an 80% chance of winning. I would bet on an 80%
:03:33. > :03:36.chance? Yes, absolutely. I spoke to a high-profile American pollster and
:03:37. > :03:41.strategist last night and he took a rather different view to Frank
:03:42. > :03:44.Luntz. He thought, and I think some other high-profile commentators
:03:45. > :03:49.agree, that this is actually much more serious than some people
:03:50. > :03:54.realise. There are an awful lot of undecided voters out there looking
:03:55. > :03:58.for an excuse to vote Trump. They do not like what they see in either
:03:59. > :04:03.candidate. But because this FBI probe is not going to conclude
:04:04. > :04:08.before the election, the question, the doubt over Hillary Clinton,
:04:09. > :04:13.gives them an excuse to back Trump. The thing that will play on the
:04:14. > :04:17.minds of the voters is, could the 100 day honeymoon turning to the 100
:04:18. > :04:23.day divorce? Which even be impeached? It may give some people
:04:24. > :04:27.an excuse not to vote for Mrs Clinton. It could provide a problem
:04:28. > :04:35.in terms of energising her base The battle ground almost matters more
:04:36. > :04:41.than the polls. Florida and Pennsylvania have been trending to
:04:42. > :04:47.Mrs Clinton. Mr Trump needs to win both. He does not get in without
:04:48. > :04:52.both. He needs both. Just coming up in the latest BBC News, the
:04:53. > :04:58.Washington Post tracking poll, Mrs Clinton is now only one point ahead
:04:59. > :05:03.in the national poll. One point Even given my caveat that the state
:05:04. > :05:09.battles are most important. That is incredibly close? It is. Polls
:05:10. > :05:17.yesterday showed Trump nationally closing of. -- up. There is a clear
:05:18. > :05:20.trend and movement. This has reinforced everything that people
:05:21. > :05:25.who have a problem with Hillary Clinton know about Hillary Clinton.
:05:26. > :05:29.Trump is running this insurgent campaign. We have seen at here with
:05:30. > :05:33.Brexit. If you are running an insurgent campaign, you want to be
:05:34. > :05:37.against the ultimate establishment insider and that is what Hillary
:05:38. > :05:43.Clinton is. I suggested it was bizarre. Fathoming the behaviour of
:05:44. > :05:47.the FBI is interesting as well. This is a separate investigation into a
:05:48. > :05:52.former congressman, Anthony Wiener, who had done all sorts of things. He
:05:53. > :06:00.seemed to be sex text thing a minor. A 15-year-old girl. The FBI
:06:01. > :06:07.investigate. They get his laptop to see what else he has been too. In
:06:08. > :06:11.the course of that, his wife, now separated, the closest adviser to
:06:12. > :06:20.Hillary Clinton, they find on the laptop e-mails involving the Clinton
:06:21. > :06:27.server to her. And yet the FBI cannot, it needs now a separate
:06:28. > :06:30.warrant to access these e-mails It hasn't got that yet. It has got a
:06:31. > :06:37.warrant to do the congressman e-mails. On the basis of not knowing
:06:38. > :06:45.the content, this has happened. Yeah. Who knows? He is a Republican,
:06:46. > :06:49.this guy. Earlier this year he was being praised to the hilt by
:06:50. > :06:54.Democrats. Absolutely. The timing is a nightmare for her. You described
:06:55. > :07:00.the whole sequence. There is nothing definitive to doubt in this
:07:01. > :07:06.sequence. All he is saying is he has discovered more e-mails in effect.
:07:07. > :07:13.They are from the congressman's former wife. On Anthony Wiener's
:07:14. > :07:20.laptop, which apparently she used sometimes. But what that shows is
:07:21. > :07:25.that for all the scrutiny of modern politicians, they cannot escape
:07:26. > :07:29.caricature. And as Tim was just saying, her weakness is perceived to
:07:30. > :07:34.be secretive, elitism and complacency about that elitism. And
:07:35. > :07:40.so just the announcement of a reopening of the investigation so
:07:41. > :07:44.fuels that caricature, you have just revealed a poll giving her a 1%
:07:45. > :07:49.lead. That must be related to what has happened. It is without a shred
:07:50. > :07:55.of evidence that she has done anything wrong. You can see how
:07:56. > :08:00.because people only see things encourage kids, that is deadly
:08:01. > :08:05.serious. -- in caricature. An American friend of mine said we have
:08:06. > :08:12.got our October surprise but we don't know what it is. The FBI must
:08:13. > :08:19.surely come under massive pressure. It did its -- it did this against
:08:20. > :08:22.the Justice Department. The difficulty the FBI had was that this
:08:23. > :08:27.information, for what it's worth, it came to them. Were they not to have
:08:28. > :08:31.said something and it worked to have come out later, they would have been
:08:32. > :08:36.accused of a massive cover-up. They are dammed if they do, dammed if
:08:37. > :08:40.they don't. There is still time for another surprise. And early November
:08:41. > :08:45.surprise. Who knows if there might still be something that comes out on
:08:46. > :08:49.Donald Trump? This is the first election where I can remember we
:08:50. > :08:54.have had two October surprises already. There are is stuff about
:08:55. > :08:59.tapes knocking around about Donald Trump saying racist things. The
:09:00. > :09:02.Clintons have got a lot of friends. It would be a big surprise if we did
:09:03. > :09:05.not see anything else in the next few days.
:09:06. > :09:11.Just when you think it could not get more interesting, it has. There has
:09:12. > :09:13.been plenty in the papers lately about the Ukip leadership saying
:09:14. > :09:16.unpleasant things about each other. But what about Mr Farage himself?
:09:17. > :09:18.What's he up to? Well, on BBC Two tonight we may
:09:19. > :09:21.find out the answer. Well, I'm led to believe
:09:22. > :09:28.she's very experienced. But I don't think Strictly Come
:09:29. > :09:30.Dancing is for me. That is, unless, of course,
:09:31. > :09:36.you fancy popping a cheeky zero No, I don't think Strictly
:09:37. > :09:40.Come Dancing is for me. Well, you tell Mr Balls he has just
:09:41. > :09:46.lost your programme one viewer. I might have nothing to do these
:09:47. > :10:08.days but, realistically, Well, that wasn't Nigel Farage. It
:10:09. > :10:13.is a BBC comedy on tonight. Nigel Farage gets his life back. A number
:10:14. > :10:19.of runners and riders. Let's come straight down to it. Who would be
:10:20. > :10:24.the next leader of Ukip? Probably Paul Nuttall. He is the favourite.
:10:25. > :10:29.The one who has the backing, not very enthusiastic backing, is Rahim
:10:30. > :10:40.Cassandra. And also Aaron Banks a big donor. The best of a rather weak
:10:41. > :10:51.lot. I think Paul Nuttall should squeak through. I interviewed all
:10:52. > :10:54.three of them this week. Mr Cassandra is a lively character and
:10:55. > :10:58.he knows how to make a few headlines. With a bit of money
:10:59. > :11:01.behind him, anything is possible. This is a guy who has been to the
:11:02. > :11:13.States, who has literally studied what Trump has done. Pees on
:11:14. > :11:20.secondment for the time being. The guy who is his line manager is one
:11:21. > :11:22.of Donald Trump's campaign stop He is extraordinarily right-wing. I am
:11:23. > :11:31.told he kept a picture of Enoch Powell by his bed. Barry Goldwater
:11:32. > :11:38.is one of his heroes, for example. There are other candidates. I would
:11:39. > :11:44.suggest, put out as a hypothesis, Paul Nuttall is Labour's worst
:11:45. > :11:49.nightmare. They are more vulnerable in the North. Paul Nuttall is from
:11:50. > :11:53.Merseyside, a working-class background, performs well on
:11:54. > :11:57.television. He is a really good interviewee. He is one of the best
:11:58. > :12:02.around in politics at the moment. However, I think whoever gets it has
:12:03. > :12:09.a massive task. The clip of this Nigel Farage satire partly shows
:12:10. > :12:13.why. His dominance was overwhelming. He, in many ways, did a brilliant
:12:14. > :12:18.job at keeping the show on the road. The trouble for all new political
:12:19. > :12:23.parties is keeping it going is tough. A very different party, the
:12:24. > :12:27.SDP, with all those glamorous figures in it, lasted eight years,
:12:28. > :12:30.something like that. I think they are in real trouble at the moment
:12:31. > :12:36.because of the implosion we have been seeing in front of our eyes and
:12:37. > :12:46.the ideal -- ideological splits Whoever gets it will face a tough
:12:47. > :12:49.tussle. All three of the main contenders want to put Nigel Farage
:12:50. > :12:53.in the House of Lords. They were falling over themselves to soak up
:12:54. > :12:57.two farads. That is how you win this election.
:12:58. > :13:04.Mr Aaron Banks, who is he putting his money on? He said he supports
:13:05. > :13:09.Rahim. I know Mr Banks is utterly fed with the shenanigans in Ukip. He
:13:10. > :13:13.thinks it is terribly disorganised, dysfunctional and doesn't want a
:13:14. > :13:15.great deal to do with it for the foreseeable future.
:13:16. > :13:20.It is not quite Trump the Clinton but it is interesting. That is it.
:13:21. > :13:26.The Daily Politics is back tomorrow. And all of next week. Jo Coburn will
:13:27. > :13:30.be your next Sunday because I am off to the United States to begin to
:13:31. > :13:37.rehearse presenting the BBC's US election night coverage on the th
:13:38. > :13:38.of November. It will be here on BBC One, BBC
:13:39. > :13:40.world, BBC News Channel and BBC online.
:13:41. > :14:11.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:12. > :14:14.A stone stained with blood and beset with a curse.
:14:15. > :14:18.The Moonstone is of inestimable value in India.
:14:19. > :14:22.Its appointed guardians would move heaven and earth to reclaim it
:14:23. > :14:30.Let us not let the past haunt all of our actions.
:14:31. > :14:31.You've got to do something! It's only you that can!