:00:38. > :00:41.Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving
:00:45. > :00:49.the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?
:00:50. > :00:51.Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime
:00:52. > :01:04.The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending
:01:05. > :01:10.on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be
:01:11. > :01:15.Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.
:01:16. > :01:17.On the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire -
:01:18. > :01:20.could fracking be coming to a place near you?
:01:21. > :01:25.could open the floodgates for this controversial technique.
:01:26. > :01:30.in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or
:01:31. > :01:39.is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?
:01:40. > :01:42.And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing
:01:43. > :01:46.the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative,
:01:47. > :01:48.dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:49. > :01:52.and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:53. > :01:57.First this morning - Theresa May has said
:01:58. > :02:00."Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -
:02:01. > :02:02.who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum
:02:03. > :02:10.Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching
:02:11. > :02:18.the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet
:02:19. > :02:28.Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to
:02:29. > :02:34.deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,
:02:35. > :02:37.100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to
:02:38. > :02:40.making a success of Brexit for the country.
:02:41. > :02:44.We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then,
:02:45. > :02:51.have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity
:02:52. > :02:55.coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we
:02:56. > :02:59.face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind
:03:00. > :03:05.when you talk about negativity - the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,
:03:06. > :03:12.for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving
:03:13. > :03:17.membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what
:03:18. > :03:20.we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat
:03:21. > :03:25.negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and
:03:26. > :03:29.the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:30. > :03:33.both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position
:03:34. > :03:38.clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to
:03:39. > :03:45.review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what
:03:46. > :03:47.you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:48. > :03:52.membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure
:03:53. > :03:56.British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new
:03:57. > :04:04.trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at
:04:05. > :04:07.Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house
:04:08. > :04:13.this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.
:04:14. > :04:16.And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on
:04:17. > :04:21.what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union
:04:22. > :04:26.at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs
:04:27. > :04:29.union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and
:04:30. > :04:34.other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are
:04:35. > :04:44.preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing
:04:45. > :04:47.carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we
:04:48. > :04:53.have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do
:04:54. > :04:57.you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is
:04:58. > :05:01.not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the
:05:02. > :05:06.moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we
:05:07. > :05:09.cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement
:05:10. > :05:15.with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.
:05:16. > :05:19.Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We
:05:20. > :05:23.still want to trade with the EU, and I think we can have a free trade
:05:24. > :05:30.agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do
:05:31. > :05:34.with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave
:05:35. > :05:39.the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the
:05:40. > :05:42.most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime
:05:43. > :05:47.Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be
:05:48. > :05:55.right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have
:05:56. > :06:01.a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a
:06:02. > :06:03.binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the
:06:04. > :06:10.Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I
:06:11. > :06:18.am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had
:06:19. > :06:23.said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the
:06:24. > :06:27.constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not
:06:28. > :06:30.securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,
:06:31. > :06:35.we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that
:06:36. > :06:40.if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade
:06:41. > :06:56.deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do
:06:57. > :07:00.you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with
:07:01. > :07:04.substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access
:07:05. > :07:07.to the single market, that goods going from this country to the
:07:08. > :07:12.single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject
:07:13. > :07:20.to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost
:07:21. > :07:24.business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement
:07:25. > :07:28.between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,
:07:29. > :07:33.but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on
:07:34. > :07:38.our own tariffs once we've left, we can't just export again willy-nilly
:07:39. > :07:41.to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do
:07:42. > :07:47.that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we
:07:48. > :07:51.agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,
:07:52. > :07:57.we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which
:07:58. > :08:01.sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our
:08:02. > :08:06.industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU
:08:07. > :08:10.but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European
:08:11. > :08:19.Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a 0%
:08:20. > :08:23.tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and
:08:24. > :08:28.goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of
:08:29. > :08:35.the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.
:08:36. > :08:39.Every bottle of Japanese whisky, they will have to work out the rules
:08:40. > :08:45.of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for
:08:46. > :08:50.50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of
:08:51. > :08:51.free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view.
:08:52. > :09:00.Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could
:09:01. > :09:05.not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is
:09:06. > :09:10.messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a
:09:11. > :09:16.campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is
:09:17. > :09:21.this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other
:09:22. > :09:25.side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that
:09:26. > :09:28.the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only
:09:29. > :09:34.through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem
:09:35. > :09:40.to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through
:09:41. > :09:43.amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to
:09:44. > :09:47.hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the
:09:48. > :09:52.Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs
:09:53. > :09:58.union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in
:09:59. > :10:02.the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good
:10:03. > :10:08.faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a
:10:09. > :10:11.Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,
:10:12. > :10:17.but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel
:10:18. > :10:21.has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.
:10:22. > :10:25.Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since
:10:26. > :10:31.the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms
:10:32. > :10:35.of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single
:10:36. > :10:39.market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and
:10:40. > :10:46.services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they
:10:47. > :10:49.can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We
:10:50. > :10:56.saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they
:10:57. > :11:06.hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into
:11:07. > :11:11.a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going
:11:12. > :11:15.to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask
:11:16. > :11:27.for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you
:11:28. > :11:33.want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting
:11:34. > :11:39.it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is
:11:40. > :11:44.150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we
:11:45. > :11:48.have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about
:11:49. > :11:56.what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.
:11:57. > :11:57.Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU
:11:58. > :11:58.also means quitting the
:11:59. > :12:01.Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free
:12:02. > :12:03.movement of goods, services, capital and people.
:12:04. > :12:05.They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting
:12:06. > :12:07.politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during
:12:08. > :12:10.Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost
:12:11. > :12:19.certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.
:12:20. > :12:23.When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay
:12:24. > :12:27."No, we should be outside the Single Market."
:12:28. > :12:29.And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael
:12:30. > :12:31.Gove was absolutely right to say the UK
:12:32. > :12:42.They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before
:12:43. > :12:45.the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the
:12:46. > :12:48.Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving
:12:49. > :12:51.the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:12:52. > :12:53.Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,
:12:54. > :13:00.once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually
:13:01. > :13:05.And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said
:13:06. > :13:08.that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some
:13:09. > :13:12.But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what
:13:13. > :13:19.To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're
:13:20. > :13:21.joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain
:13:22. > :13:35.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave
:13:36. > :13:38.campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many
:13:39. > :13:46.were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was
:13:47. > :13:51.made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12
:13:52. > :13:54.statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the
:13:55. > :13:59.referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.
:14:00. > :14:02.Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian
:14:03. > :14:09.model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went
:14:10. > :14:11.out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading
:14:12. > :14:15.arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the
:14:16. > :14:20.Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade
:14:21. > :14:24.agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the
:14:25. > :14:29.12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself,
:14:30. > :14:33.when people were giving really serious thought to such matters? The
:14:34. > :14:37.Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters.
:14:38. > :14:42.They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.
:14:43. > :14:46.But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should
:14:47. > :14:51.stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked
:14:52. > :14:56.about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from
:14:57. > :15:00.Nigel Farage dates back to 2009, when we didn't even know if we would
:15:01. > :15:04.have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back
:15:05. > :15:08.to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point
:15:09. > :15:14.stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.
:15:15. > :15:19.Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave
:15:20. > :15:22.movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place
:15:23. > :15:26.in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave
:15:27. > :15:30.campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have
:15:31. > :15:33.highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners
:15:34. > :15:40.over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments
:15:41. > :15:46.accurately? I don't think in a 92nd video you can talk about the full
:15:47. > :15:50.thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade
:15:51. > :15:58.agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
:15:59. > :16:00.There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the
:16:01. > :16:02.clip you used on Owen Paterson first.
:16:03. > :16:08.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:09. > :16:13.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:14. > :16:14.It's not the EU which is
:16:15. > :16:17.a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.
:16:18. > :16:21.It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on
:16:22. > :16:24.I mean, are we really suggesting that the
:16:25. > :16:26.economy in the world is not going to come to come
:16:27. > :16:28.to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?
:16:29. > :16:30.Are we going to be like Sudan and North
:16:31. > :16:35.It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a
:16:36. > :16:48.What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that
:16:49. > :16:52.we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country
:16:53. > :16:55.in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our
:16:56. > :16:59.trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David
:17:00. > :17:03.Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box
:17:04. > :17:07.recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the
:17:08. > :17:11.Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of
:17:12. > :17:13.course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't
:17:14. > :17:31.think he was about axis, he is talking
:17:32. > :17:34.about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks
:17:35. > :17:36.about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap
:17:37. > :17:39.off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's
:17:40. > :17:41.the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and
:17:42. > :17:44.Patterson is an example of this, saying we can trade as we do now,
:17:45. > :17:46.the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and
:17:47. > :17:49.tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the
:17:50. > :17:50.views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.
:17:51. > :17:53.When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that
:17:54. > :17:55.it might be initially attractive for some business people.
:17:56. > :17:59.So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in
:18:00. > :18:03.the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian
:18:04. > :18:06.option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive
:18:07. > :18:08.for some business people. But then again for voters
:18:09. > :18:11.who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,
:18:12. > :18:15.they will be very concerned that it allows free movement
:18:16. > :18:26.of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.
:18:27. > :18:29.He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real
:18:30. > :18:33.problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.
:18:34. > :18:37.But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them
:18:38. > :18:40.accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what
:18:41. > :18:44.we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying
:18:45. > :18:49.the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It
:18:50. > :18:55.might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free
:18:56. > :19:00.movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are
:19:01. > :19:03.saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are
:19:04. > :19:05.distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.
:19:06. > :19:07.On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:19:08. > :19:15.This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn't
:19:16. > :19:16.run. There is absolutely
:19:17. > :19:18.nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving
:19:19. > :19:19.the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part
:19:20. > :19:24.of the European Economic Area and we should use our
:19:25. > :19:33.membership of the EEA as a holding position from which
:19:34. > :19:36.we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export
:19:37. > :19:38.market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,
:19:39. > :19:48.if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we
:19:49. > :19:53.should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA
:19:54. > :20:03.as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip
:20:04. > :20:07.is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a
:20:08. > :20:10.distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a
:20:11. > :20:13.definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,
:20:14. > :20:18.for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go
:20:19. > :20:21.on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he
:20:22. > :20:25.does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't
:20:26. > :20:28.let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he
:20:29. > :20:33.wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would
:20:34. > :20:36.be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea
:20:37. > :20:40.now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the
:20:41. > :20:44.Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all
:20:45. > :20:48.had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the
:20:49. > :20:53.full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out
:20:54. > :20:56.there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave
:20:57. > :20:59.campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout
:21:00. > :21:03.the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market
:21:04. > :21:07.is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the
:21:08. > :21:11.montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime
:21:12. > :21:14.Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being
:21:15. > :21:18.categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave
:21:19. > :21:21.membership of the Single Market. What bit of that didn't you
:21:22. > :21:24.understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to
:21:25. > :21:31.leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other
:21:32. > :21:35.promises they made, whether ?350 million for the NHS, whether a VAT
:21:36. > :21:38.cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of
:21:39. > :21:42.any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan
:21:43. > :21:47.has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market. You
:21:48. > :21:49.spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting
:21:50. > :21:52.and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen
:21:53. > :21:56.this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is
:21:57. > :21:59.perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have
:22:00. > :22:03.a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.
:22:04. > :22:07.That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to
:22:08. > :22:11.stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag
:22:12. > :22:13.us out of our biggest trading partner.
:22:14. > :22:15.Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up
:22:16. > :22:17.their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week
:22:18. > :22:20.in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest
:22:21. > :22:23.this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -
:22:24. > :22:25.stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from
:22:26. > :22:28.farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,
:22:29. > :22:44.split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're
:22:45. > :22:54.having their second Watch as the alpha male,
:22:55. > :23:01.the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,
:23:02. > :23:04.the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha
:23:05. > :23:06.female Diane James. The European Parliament
:23:07. > :23:20.in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible
:23:21. > :23:23.future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,
:23:24. > :23:26.has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague
:23:27. > :23:28.during a meeting. A few days later he is
:23:29. > :23:30.out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my
:23:31. > :23:34.application to become I'm actually withdrawing
:23:35. > :23:38.myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party?
:23:39. > :23:44.I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document
:23:45. > :23:47.suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political
:23:48. > :23:52.campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes
:23:53. > :23:58.over the leadership of the pack. One contender is Suzanne Evans,
:23:59. > :24:01.a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for
:24:02. > :24:10.disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,
:24:11. > :24:13.an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side
:24:14. > :24:19.as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast
:24:20. > :24:21.in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told
:24:22. > :24:24.that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,
:24:25. > :24:29.a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance
:24:30. > :24:32.to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated
:24:33. > :24:46.passionate supporters who feel like they're not really
:24:47. > :24:49.being listened to and are not even Typically what happens
:24:50. > :24:52.is they just basically sit there until six months before
:24:53. > :24:54.a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out
:24:55. > :24:57.and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel
:24:58. > :24:59.there is not an adequate flow of communication
:25:00. > :25:01.up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in
:25:02. > :25:10.any hustings? He left a hustings saying
:25:11. > :25:13.the contest was an establishment coronation and has
:25:14. > :25:16.made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty
:25:17. > :25:18.for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear
:25:19. > :25:21.will amongst the offences should be dealt with
:25:22. > :25:24.decisively. But again, on an issue like that,
:25:25. > :25:27.that is something that Our members are not
:25:28. > :25:32.going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that
:25:33. > :25:35.I would have any authority to have the say and determine
:25:36. > :25:37.the future What method would you use
:25:38. > :25:40.for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could
:25:41. > :25:43.be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online
:25:44. > :25:47.poll about whether you use the electric chair,
:25:48. > :25:53.or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made
:25:54. > :25:55.in favour of This is such a small aspect
:25:56. > :25:59.of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media
:26:00. > :26:01.they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant
:26:02. > :26:07.details. This is one vote that
:26:08. > :26:09.the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do
:26:10. > :26:13.in this party is to revolutionise the democratic
:26:14. > :26:16.process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should
:26:17. > :26:20.be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip
:26:21. > :26:22.would win at Meanwhile, in New York,
:26:23. > :26:30.on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage
:26:31. > :26:39.of the President-elect, a man he has described as
:26:40. > :26:41.a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some
:26:42. > :26:45.in this leadership contest. There are also elections
:26:46. > :26:47.to the party's National Executive Committee, a body
:26:48. > :26:49.that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two
:26:50. > :27:04.of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -
:27:05. > :27:14.Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving
:27:15. > :27:17.each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be
:27:18. > :27:20.the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.
:27:21. > :27:23.Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,
:27:24. > :27:27.forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it
:27:28. > :27:31.really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win
:27:32. > :27:35.seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we
:27:36. > :27:55.need to attract more women, more ethnic
:27:56. > :27:57.minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their
:27:58. > :28:00.party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my
:28:01. > :28:03.leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical
:28:04. > :28:05.party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne
:28:06. > :28:07.Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.
:28:08. > :28:10.I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and
:28:11. > :28:12.prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I
:28:13. > :28:15.am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done
:28:16. > :28:18.every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,
:28:19. > :28:20.whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past
:28:21. > :28:22.six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour
:28:23. > :28:26.constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of
:28:27. > :28:29.working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet
:28:30. > :28:36.are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a
:28:37. > :28:40.mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to
:28:41. > :28:44.realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get
:28:45. > :28:47.together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles
:28:48. > :28:52.within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and
:28:53. > :28:56.whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion
:28:57. > :29:01.polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on
:29:02. > :29:04.the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a
:29:05. > :29:08.grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in
:29:09. > :29:11.the party as well and also a background that I think means I can
:29:12. > :29:22.help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity
:29:23. > :29:24.faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.
:29:25. > :29:26.There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee
:29:27. > :29:29.going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have
:29:30. > :29:32.ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day, I
:29:33. > :29:35.think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more
:29:36. > :29:40.open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive
:29:41. > :29:44.Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to
:29:45. > :29:46.be elected reasonably since 2010 giving the members better
:29:47. > :29:51.communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a
:29:52. > :29:55.clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,
:29:56. > :29:59.Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person
:30:00. > :30:02.who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show
:30:03. > :30:09.you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with
:30:10. > :30:13.President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's
:30:14. > :30:17.decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr
:30:18. > :30:22.Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.
:30:23. > :30:26.I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is
:30:27. > :30:31.President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the
:30:32. > :30:34.campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,
:30:35. > :30:37.pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put
:30:38. > :30:43.the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne
:30:44. > :30:47.Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I
:30:48. > :30:51.said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest. The
:30:52. > :30:55.better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is
:30:56. > :31:00.quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr
:31:01. > :31:05.Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have
:31:06. > :31:09.that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not
:31:10. > :31:12.out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is
:31:13. > :31:18.according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let
:31:19. > :31:21.me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself
:31:22. > :31:25.in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country
:31:26. > :31:27.ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in
:31:28. > :31:37.2020. The other thing your leader has in
:31:38. > :31:43.common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do
:31:44. > :31:50.you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and
:31:51. > :31:54.Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is
:31:55. > :31:59.pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle
:32:00. > :32:06.East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to
:32:07. > :32:10.bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the
:32:11. > :32:14.conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American
:32:15. > :32:22.line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is
:32:23. > :32:25.affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these
:32:26. > :32:33.people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial
:32:34. > :32:36.breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage
:32:37. > :32:42.unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do
:32:43. > :32:46.you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I
:32:47. > :32:50.was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,
:32:51. > :32:53.and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were
:32:54. > :32:57.already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth
:32:58. > :32:59.that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control
:33:00. > :33:08.immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering
:33:09. > :33:12.voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it
:33:13. > :33:16.was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed
:33:17. > :33:21.to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.
:33:22. > :33:27.People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip
:33:28. > :33:34.shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you
:33:35. > :33:37.different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone
:33:38. > :33:40.for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from
:33:41. > :33:47.the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns,
:33:48. > :33:55.with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa
:33:56. > :33:59.into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,
:34:00. > :34:04.particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I
:34:05. > :34:09.want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the
:34:10. > :34:13.low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national
:34:14. > :34:17.anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks
:34:18. > :34:21.anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John
:34:22. > :34:25.McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for
:34:26. > :34:30.working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.
:34:31. > :34:36.It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I
:34:37. > :34:40.first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic
:34:41. > :34:44.opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at
:34:45. > :34:46.me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have
:34:47. > :34:53.seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death
:34:54. > :34:57.penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more
:34:58. > :35:01.money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to
:35:02. > :35:11.fund it adequately, and it hasn't been to date. We promised in our
:35:12. > :35:15.manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come
:35:16. > :35:20.from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being
:35:21. > :35:26.taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the
:35:27. > :35:29.money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because
:35:30. > :35:34.that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on
:35:35. > :35:39.management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,
:35:40. > :35:44.foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership
:35:45. > :35:47.fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It
:35:48. > :35:54.cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are
:35:55. > :36:01.not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you
:36:02. > :36:06.get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.
:36:07. > :36:10.Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25
:36:11. > :36:15.million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer
:36:16. > :36:19.than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away
:36:20. > :36:35.from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?
:36:36. > :36:43.Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.
:36:44. > :36:48.Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you
:36:49. > :36:52.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:53. > :36:55.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:36:56. > :37:04.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:37:05. > :37:05.Hello, you're watching the Sunday Politics
:37:06. > :37:08.for Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and the North Midlands.
:37:09. > :37:12.Could fracking be coming to a place near you?
:37:13. > :37:23.could open the floodgates for this controversial technique.
:37:24. > :37:28.I am here in North Yorkshire, right on the spot where the first
:37:29. > :37:33.commercial extraction of gas using fracking could start within a matter
:37:34. > :37:36.of weeks. I will be talking to the local MP about why it is so
:37:37. > :37:37.controversial and why he supports it.
:37:38. > :37:39.But where does renewable energy fit in the mix?
:37:40. > :37:41.We're on the Humber - the "Energy Estuary" -
:37:42. > :37:43.as businesses there ask for more clarity
:37:44. > :37:49.This week, the High Court could decide if fracking
:37:50. > :37:54.in what's being seen as a landmark legal challenge.
:37:55. > :37:57.Opponents of the technique are hoping a judicial review
:37:58. > :38:01.will overturn a decision made by North Yorkshire County Council
:38:02. > :38:05.In a moment, we'll be going live to the proposed fracking site
:38:06. > :38:11.But, first, Danni Hewson reports on why shale gas is so important
:38:12. > :38:21.Or, to give it its full title, high-pressure hydraulic fracturing.
:38:22. > :38:25.The aim is to get to gas trapped deep within layers of shale.
:38:26. > :38:28.Pumping water mixed with chemicals to make it slippy,
:38:29. > :38:31.and sand to hold open the fissures as they are created
:38:32. > :38:36.should allow the lucrative fuel to escape.
:38:37. > :38:38.In the past, much of the region's economy and landscape
:38:39. > :38:46.But our part in the energy equation is not over.
:38:47. > :38:49.If the shale industry can be successful,
:38:50. > :38:53.it could have an even greater impact.
:38:54. > :38:56.84% of UK homes are heated using natural gas.
:38:57. > :39:02.Actually, we think that this is a very early phase of science,
:39:03. > :39:04.we don't know whether it will produce or not.
:39:05. > :39:07.Actually, through doing the 2D, the 3D, the core drilling
:39:08. > :39:10.and testing whether you can flow it safely and in commercial quantities,
:39:11. > :39:14.you then have a domestic resource option,
:39:15. > :39:16.if you prove it can be successful.
:39:17. > :39:18.Just look at where companies like Ineos believe
:39:19. > :39:25.Licences for exploration cover vast swathes of our region.
:39:26. > :39:28.So far, only this site in Kirby Misperton has been given
:39:29. > :39:32.planning permission to frack and, last week, this site in Misson
:39:33. > :39:35.got the go-ahead for first stage drilling.
:39:36. > :39:39.But campaigners expect next year to be pivotal.
:39:40. > :39:42.I think the pace is quickening, and companies are going to be
:39:43. > :39:45.putting in more applications in the next six months.
:39:46. > :39:47.We have seen activity from the industry
:39:48. > :39:51.I think the industry is taking heart from the Government decisions
:39:52. > :39:54.in those counties and will be pushing ahead.
:39:55. > :39:56.But if they think they are home and dry,
:39:57. > :40:01.Opposition has been highly organised.
:40:02. > :40:04.Some, like I did, have travelled to learn more.
:40:05. > :40:08.where they have been fracking for over a decade,
:40:09. > :40:11.I met a group of mothers with their own concerns.
:40:12. > :40:15.One has just made the return journey.
:40:16. > :40:17.If you could develop shale in a bubble -
:40:18. > :40:24.no air quality issues, no issues of water contamination
:40:25. > :40:29.or damage to homes or increased truck traffic
:40:30. > :40:33.or problems with spills, incidents, accidents -
:40:34. > :40:37.if you could guarantee your community, 100%,
:40:38. > :40:40.that they are not going to have any impact at all then,
:40:41. > :40:47.But the problem is, with this industry, there is no guarantee.
:40:48. > :40:49.But there are differences and the industry here
:40:50. > :40:53.says it deserves time to win the public's trust.
:40:54. > :40:57.Really what I think needs to be done is building the confidence
:40:58. > :41:00.in the process by explaining the 2D, the 3D, the core drilling,
:41:01. > :41:04.what the site looks like, what the risks and issues
:41:05. > :41:06.we are dealing with as a company are -
:41:07. > :41:11.that is the bit that needs to be done alongside the planning process.
:41:12. > :41:13.Whatever your views, it's expected next year will deliver
:41:14. > :41:17.first-hand experience for at least one community,
:41:18. > :41:25.Let's cross live now to Kirby Misperton
:41:26. > :41:27.and join Len Tingle at the Third energy site.
:41:28. > :41:34.Len, just remind us of the significance of where you are?
:41:35. > :41:41.This is the site that for the last two decades or more, they have been
:41:42. > :41:49.extracting gas conventionally. We are a couple of hundred meters away
:41:50. > :41:54.from Kirby Mr -- Kirby Misperton, which is close to flamingo land, if
:41:55. > :41:57.you want to find out where we are. Just on this site, a few metres
:41:58. > :42:02.away, they hope to start the first extraction using the controversial
:42:03. > :42:07.system of fracking. I'm joined by the local Conservative MP. You were
:42:08. > :42:10.on that trip to the United States that we have just seen. You have
:42:11. > :42:14.looked at fracking for yourself. You're convinced it is a good thing.
:42:15. > :42:21.Why is that? It is a national opportunity. The decision to push
:42:22. > :42:25.ahead with shale gas expiration was taken in January 2015 and passed by
:42:26. > :42:31.a majority of 250 votes. That is because we need gas. We have
:42:32. > :42:37.millions of homes connected to gas supplies for cooking and heating, we
:42:38. > :42:45.at shutting down our coal power stations and replacing them with
:42:46. > :42:48.group are saying that it could group are saying that it could
:42:49. > :42:52.contaminate water supplies and things like that. Why is there such
:42:53. > :42:56.a port? I understand the local a port? I understand the local
:42:57. > :42:59.concerns. What I have been doing for concerns. What I have been doing for
:43:00. > :43:02.the last 18 months is working very hard to make sure we have the proper
:43:03. > :43:09.mitigations and moderation is to make sure we do this properly. Based
:43:10. > :43:11.water quality, to make sure we can water quality, to make sure we can
:43:12. > :43:15.do this in safe environments all limits. Also to make sure it is
:43:16. > :43:22.planned properly so we do not have too many wells and it can fit into
:43:23. > :43:28.the countryside. They would not allow us to bring anybody on who is
:43:29. > :43:31.against it to debate with you. I understand the concerns. I have gone
:43:32. > :43:38.out of my way to listen to those concerns and listen to the
:43:39. > :43:41.protesters. We do have good scientists and we do believe we can
:43:42. > :43:45.do this safely but we need to see the evidence of that. I understand
:43:46. > :43:49.that. These people also need to see that evidence. We are seeing a
:43:50. > :43:52.different mix of producing electricity to keep our lights on.
:43:53. > :43:59.Do we beat you need this fracking? We do. We do need a mix. I'm a
:44:00. > :44:04.massive supporter of renewables. This is not gas or renewables, we
:44:05. > :44:11.need both and we need nuclear. We import around 45% of our gas, 70% by
:44:12. > :44:15.2030. We can produce it and if we can produce it, it is better than
:44:16. > :44:18.importing it. This is one of the most beautiful areas in the country,
:44:19. > :44:27.the right place? We have one stop the right place? We have one stop
:44:28. > :44:33.pollution that there are no surface sites in national parks. We need to
:44:34. > :44:36.make sure it is planned properly so we do not damage the countryside and
:44:37. > :44:41.the landscape looks like it will look in a few years' time. I believe
:44:42. > :44:45.we can do that. Thank you very much. With that, from here in Kirby
:44:46. > :44:48.Misperton, it is back to the studio. Joining me in the studio
:44:49. > :44:50.is Andrew Cooper, Green Party Energy Spokesman
:44:51. > :44:55.and also a councillor in Kirklees. And Roger Helmer UKIP
:44:56. > :45:10.Energy Spokesman What do you make of the reassurances
:45:11. > :45:16.in place for fracking to be carried in place for fracking to be carried
:45:17. > :45:20.out safely? I think the evidence would fly in the face of that. If
:45:21. > :45:25.you look at Conservative MEPs, they voted against strict fracking
:45:26. > :45:30.regulations in Brussels. They voted against those. If we are supposed
:45:31. > :45:34.have a strict regime, why did they vote against them? Actually, if you
:45:35. > :45:40.look at the regulations we have, those were regulations put in place
:45:41. > :45:45.before fracking for gas exploration. You support fracking, do the Obama
:45:46. > :45:48.to risks not bother you? They have been grossly exaggerated. The Green
:45:49. > :45:54.Party has today huge disservice to the British economy and working
:45:55. > :45:58.people by exaggerating very small risks. I have been to Pennsylvania
:45:59. > :46:02.and Texas. I never met anybody that was concerned about these issues
:46:03. > :46:05.about quality and water quality. I met people who were excited about
:46:06. > :46:07.the economic opportunities that were presented. This could be like North
:46:08. > :46:09.Sea gas all over again. Across Sea gas all over again. Across
:46:10. > :46:14.Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire, and Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire, and
:46:15. > :46:17.Lincolnshire, people remember the coal industry, they were very upset
:46:18. > :46:23.when the coal industry closed down. We have got the opportunity of shale
:46:24. > :46:27.gas, which is much cleaner and much safer and a much better proposition
:46:28. > :46:32.at offers similar economic opportunities will stop North Sea
:46:33. > :46:39.gas all over again, I Bloomer. -- a boom. Why are doctors in the meadow
:46:40. > :46:42.called profession asking for a moratorium on fracking because of
:46:43. > :46:48.the impact on health of local people there? If it is that safe, you would
:46:49. > :46:55.expect medical professionals to have a different view. Why do people not
:46:56. > :47:02.want fracking in their backyard? They are not convinced of the
:47:03. > :47:07.by this constant propaganda, talking by this constant propaganda, talking
:47:08. > :47:10.of earthquakes. There has never been an earthquake as a result of
:47:11. > :47:13.fracking. There have been some reminder of tremors on the same
:47:14. > :47:19.level as natural background seismic activity. There have been one or two
:47:20. > :47:21.small incidents of water contamination in the States. The
:47:22. > :47:27.industry is getting very much better, very much safer, better
:47:28. > :47:33.controls in place. As I say, the economic opportunity, the energy
:47:34. > :47:42.security, the effect on our balance, the prospect of new opportunities.
:47:43. > :47:47.Really, we ought to seize this. Is there scaremongering going on? I
:47:48. > :47:50.don't think so. For the United States, the having lots of examples
:47:51. > :47:58.of water contamination is, impacts on health. There are a lot of
:47:59. > :48:00.alternatives to fracking, energy efficiency, insulation, renewables.
:48:01. > :48:06.These are better alternatives that These are better alternatives that
:48:07. > :48:13.do not have the impact of fracking 's. We are on the edge of power cuts
:48:14. > :48:17.through the winter. That is true. Talk to the National Grid. They
:48:18. > :48:20.break close. The margin of safety is very small. The things you are
:48:21. > :48:24.trying to do to substitute for real trying to do to substitute for real
:48:25. > :48:29.power generation are just not delivering. The bitter irony is that
:48:30. > :48:31.because of the intermittency of wind power, we actually having to rely on
:48:32. > :48:37.diesel generators to fill in the gaps. This is utter nonsense. It is
:48:38. > :48:43.not, this is happening. Check the facts. If you look right the way
:48:44. > :48:45.across Europe, we have a low percentage of our energy coming from
:48:46. > :48:50.renewables. Other countries across the European Union have 50% plus of
:48:51. > :48:55.their energy coming from renewable sources. If it is possible that, why
:48:56. > :48:58.is it not possible in the UK? We will talk about this now. Let's move
:48:59. > :49:00.on from fracking while the debate continues.
:49:01. > :49:01.While the debate continues about fracking,
:49:02. > :49:04.the Government is determined to phase out our reliance on coal.
:49:05. > :49:06.So where does renewable energy fit into the mix?
:49:07. > :49:08.Danish energy giant Dong plans to spend ?6 billion
:49:09. > :49:12.on the Humber, building the world's biggest windfarm.
:49:13. > :49:15.And Siemens will open its wind turbine blade factory
:49:16. > :49:19.But some in the industry are calling for a long-term commitment
:49:20. > :49:23.from ministers on the future of green energy.
:49:24. > :49:31.Flying over the Humber and out to the North Sea,
:49:32. > :49:34.you soon get a sense of how the renewable energy boom
:49:35. > :49:37.is transforming the horizon and this area's economy.
:49:38. > :49:39.You know how big the Humber Bridge is,
:49:40. > :49:44.but each one of those 35 turbines is taller than the Humber Bridge.
:49:45. > :49:48.this is the Westermost Rough Wind Farm,
:49:49. > :49:54.How much energy do these turbines create?
:49:55. > :49:57.Just these turbines here will make enough energy
:49:58. > :50:02.to meet the power needs of 190,000 UK homes.
:50:03. > :50:07.DONG Energy plans to invest ?6 billion on the Humber by 2020.
:50:08. > :50:10.At the board of Grimsby, fishing boats have been replaced
:50:11. > :50:16.This building down here, right next to the famous tower,
:50:17. > :50:21.that's where we've got our warehouse, our offices,
:50:22. > :50:27.that's where our technicians set off from to do their day's work.
:50:28. > :50:29.And you could have chosen to base your operations
:50:30. > :50:35.The Humber and Grimsby are ideal for that.
:50:36. > :50:38.This part of the North Sea is where those great sites are.
:50:39. > :50:41.You know, this is also where we can recruit and train
:50:42. > :50:44.the skilled workforce we need to do this.
:50:45. > :50:46.While on the north bank of the Humber,
:50:47. > :50:50.Siemens opens its multi-million pound factory next month.
:50:51. > :50:55.Layer after layer of fibreglass, and the blades are taking shape.
:50:56. > :50:59.you get a real sense of the scale of this structure.
:51:00. > :51:09.and has been handcrafted by workers here in Hull.
:51:10. > :51:11.This is one of the first batches that will be done.
:51:12. > :51:15.To what extent can this investment transform this area's economy?
:51:16. > :51:18.This is one of the biggest investments we're making globally,
:51:19. > :51:21.and has been for the last number of years.
:51:22. > :51:24.We're in the process of creating 1,000 jobs.
:51:25. > :51:26.We've already recruited over 600 people.
:51:27. > :51:29.We had 23,000 applications to work for us.
:51:30. > :51:31.Does Siemens need more clarity from the Government
:51:32. > :51:38.Post 2020, the Government has indicated that it will continue
:51:39. > :51:42.to invest in offshore wind, has given us indicative numbers
:51:43. > :51:47.We obviously would have liked more than that, and we like that
:51:48. > :51:53.But that's dependent also on the industry reducing its costs.
:51:54. > :51:57.The Humber promotes itself as the "Energy Estuary",
:51:58. > :51:59.and Immingham is the UK's energy port,
:52:00. > :52:03.helping to keep the nation's lights on.
:52:04. > :52:08.the Humber ports are having to adapt as well.
:52:09. > :52:10.Coal imports are dropping, and more wood pellets,
:52:11. > :52:15.known as biomass, are being brought in by boat from North America.
:52:16. > :52:18.We handle ?75 billion worth of cargo in this port,
:52:19. > :52:23.so our importance both nationally and locally is not in doubt.
:52:24. > :52:28.We certainly are the Energy Estuary and the mix of power sources - coal,
:52:29. > :52:32.bio mass, offshore wind, gas - they all have a role to play.
:52:33. > :52:36.These energy companies are shrugging off any Brexit uncertainty.
:52:37. > :52:40.and the economic future of this area, like its past,
:52:41. > :52:56.The wind power industry is providing billions of pounds worth of
:52:57. > :53:00.investment, thousands of new jobs. This is a real reddish success
:53:01. > :53:03.story, isn't it? The taxpayer and the energy use are providing the
:53:04. > :53:07.money and the big question for the wind industry, and the one hand they
:53:08. > :53:10.tell us that they have hit the holy grail of grid parity, they are
:53:11. > :53:14.competitive with other sources of energy, but they also tell us they
:53:15. > :53:17.cannot go on without a financial commitment from the Government.
:53:18. > :53:21.Those two propositions don't stack up. The fact is, when you pay for
:53:22. > :53:26.the back-up that you have to have for intermittent wind, it is still
:53:27. > :53:30.very expensive. I appreciate the jobs that are being created on the
:53:31. > :53:33.harbour history, if you put a tonne of money into place, you will get
:53:34. > :53:38.jobs and that is good. It a misallocation of resources and it is
:53:39. > :53:41.the consumer generally who was paying for it, either through tax or
:53:42. > :53:48.energy prices. You heard that point there, wind energy is it Spencer,
:53:49. > :53:50.we're all paying for it. There have been ?1 billion of tax subsidies
:53:51. > :53:58.offered by the governor to the oil and gas sector. That is where some
:53:59. > :54:01.of the real... If you don't mind it dropping. That is where the real
:54:02. > :54:04.subsidy comes from. Banning issues have been set aside for fracking,
:54:05. > :54:07.rides have been offered to communities for fracking. This is
:54:08. > :54:16.where the real subsidy actually lies. If we look at energy
:54:17. > :54:19.efficiency, renewables, solar, wind, tidal, wave, there are huge
:54:20. > :54:23.opportunities and the UK is not taking advantage of those. We are
:54:24. > :54:36.way down... But the energy regulator is saying we will be paying 7% now
:54:37. > :54:49.bills, in taxes, for the year. Some of the taxes are for Hinkley C. That
:54:50. > :54:53.will largely benefit French and Chinese governors. That is not
:54:54. > :54:59.renewable. It is considered as that. We know that Donald Trump is not a
:55:00. > :55:06.think it is a hoax, like him? I think it is a hoax, like him? I
:55:07. > :55:13.don't think it is a hoax. It is a misinterpretation of the data. That
:55:14. > :55:15.we can fiddle with that variable and turn the climate down is Frankie
:55:16. > :55:19.absurd. To that extent, I would agree with him. That is not the view
:55:20. > :55:23.of climate scientists, the people who understand and know this will
:55:24. > :55:26.stop he can believe what he wants to believe, but the site says that
:55:27. > :55:30.man-made climate change is actually happening. Part of the sites. There
:55:31. > :55:34.are many side is to take a completely different view. Don't
:55:35. > :55:38.give me the 97 cents figure, because it is false. It is not. It is
:55:39. > :55:42.utterly amongst those who are actually climate scientists. Donald
:55:43. > :55:45.Trump says he will possibly pull out of the Paris agreement on climate
:55:46. > :55:50.change. Are we now seeing the end of this worldwide consensus when it
:55:51. > :55:55.comes to ending our reliance on fossil fuels? We have got to see if
:55:56. > :56:02.we can get past post-truth politics in. The truth is that climate change
:56:03. > :56:08.is affected by human activity. When Donald Trump sits down, hopefully,
:56:09. > :56:10.with people who really do understand the science, they will expire the
:56:11. > :56:16.reality to him which goes beyond his beliefs. We have got to get to a
:56:17. > :56:22.point whereby we actually act on evidence as opposed to what people
:56:23. > :56:25.just think what oil and gas lobbyists say. Are we going to be
:56:26. > :56:29.less green after Brexit? You will have to ask the Government of the
:56:30. > :56:32.day. I can tell you about the Paris climate agreement but Jilly was not
:56:33. > :56:36.worth the paper it was written on originally, because there is no firm
:56:37. > :56:42.commitment, there is no mechanism for enforcing any commitments
:56:43. > :56:46.countries have made. A new American president who is guaranteed to pull
:56:47. > :56:49.out of it, it is a dead letter. I don't think it is guaranteed. Let's
:56:50. > :56:53.hope there is a change of heart. We have got the nationally determined
:56:54. > :57:02.contributions, which are part of the Paris climate agreement. I think we
:57:03. > :57:07.should honourably work towards those. Those sort of things are
:57:08. > :57:10.important because the future of the human race actually depends on them.
:57:11. > :57:14.You can believe that, but it is not true. The site says it is so. The
:57:15. > :57:20.site is eight complex, chaotic system. I can see you will not agree
:57:21. > :57:29.on this. There are scientists who know about climate change... Not
:57:30. > :57:32.climate scientists. This is a big debate. We will get you back and let
:57:33. > :57:33.you go into more detail some other time.
:57:34. > :57:36.Now let's catch up with the rest of the week's political news.
:57:37. > :57:42.Richard Edwards has our round-up in 60 Seconds.
:57:43. > :57:45.The Government says it's full steam ahead with the second phase
:57:46. > :57:47.of the high-speed rail route to Leeds,
:57:48. > :57:49.but no decision on where it will run
:57:50. > :57:50.through South Yorkshire until next year.
:57:51. > :57:53.Harrogate MP and Transport Minister Andrew Jones
:57:54. > :57:57.promised there would be no impact on small projects.
:57:58. > :57:59.We are not slowing down on our development
:58:00. > :58:02.of any other of our transport infrastructures.
:58:03. > :58:04.The amount of money which is actually being spent
:58:05. > :58:07.on other modes of transport is greater than on HS2.
:58:08. > :58:10.But, just a day later, it emerged that the electrification
:58:11. > :58:14.of the rail line from Selby to Hull was being abandoned.
:58:15. > :58:16.After weeks of wrangling, the row over who should replace
:58:17. > :58:19.Timothy Kirkhope as Yorkshire and the Humber's Conservative MEP
:58:20. > :58:23.after his elevation to the House of Lords has finally been sorted.
:58:24. > :58:26.It will be Leeds councillor John Procter, one of the list of six
:58:27. > :58:31.originally selected to fight the 2014 Euro elections.
:58:32. > :58:33.And Shipley Conservative MP Philip Davies
:58:34. > :58:36.used a special Commons debate ahead of International Men's Day
:58:37. > :58:47.to highlight the inequalities he says are faced by men and boys.
:58:48. > :58:53.You both degree on climate change. One thing you do agree on is neither
:58:54. > :58:58.of you are of HS2, are you? Absolutely right. I agree. There are
:58:59. > :59:03.better things we could be investing money into, public transport, robust
:59:04. > :59:09.services that are under threat and closing right the way across the
:59:10. > :59:13.region. That is where we need the investment, not trying to get to
:59:14. > :59:18.London or away from London half an hour more quickly. Not convinced by
:59:19. > :59:21.the economic arguments? It is a vanity project. It is like the
:59:22. > :59:26.Concord argument, we spent so much time and money on it, we can't stop
:59:27. > :59:28.now. They should stop now because they're docking at ?80 billion on
:59:29. > :59:34.something that makes little difference to the economy. It could
:59:35. > :59:36.be spent on local government, it could be said of services, the
:59:37. > :59:40.services that are under threat at the moment across the area. Or other
:59:41. > :59:47.rail projects that are more relevant and useful. The improvements to the
:59:48. > :59:49.lines. The governance says differently, but they will have to
:59:50. > :59:55.sort out about Sheffield first. Thank you for your thoughts today.
:59:56. > :59:58.Now let's go back to Andrew Neil in London.
:59:59. > :00:00.never happened and will not happen in four years. It is subject we
:00:01. > :00:01.should spend more time on. Back to in four years. It is subject we
:00:02. > :00:10.you. What will the Chancellor have to say
:00:11. > :00:14.in his first big economic statement? What impact will the forecasters say
:00:15. > :00:17.Brexit will have on the economy? And who will face the Front
:00:18. > :00:20.National's Marine Le Pen in Well, the Shadow Chancellor
:00:21. > :00:35.and the Chancellor have both been touring the television
:00:36. > :00:36.studios this morning. Let's be clear, a lot of this
:00:37. > :00:43.is going to be gimmicks and press As I've said, in the
:00:44. > :00:46.pipeline, we've only seen one in five delivered
:00:47. > :00:49.to construction, that's all. So a lot of this will be a repeat
:00:50. > :00:52.of what I'm not going to reveal
:00:53. > :00:55.what I'm going to say on We don't have unlimited
:00:56. > :01:00.capacity, as one might imagine from listening
:01:01. > :01:03.to John McDonnell, to borrow hundreds of billions of pounds more
:01:04. > :01:08.for discretionary spending. That simply doesn't
:01:09. > :01:11.exist if we're going to retain this country's hard-won
:01:12. > :01:14.credibility in the financial markets if we are going to remain
:01:15. > :01:30.an attractive place for business to We didn't learn very much, Helen,
:01:31. > :01:33.but the papers were briefed this morning that there will be another
:01:34. > :01:45.?1.3 billion for roads and things like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08% of
:01:46. > :01:48.our GDP. Not exactly an infrastructure investment programme,
:01:49. > :01:57.is it? Yellow like I have to say, it was not thrilling to read the
:01:58. > :02:00.details. -- I have to say... It is the first big financial statement
:02:01. > :02:04.that is going to come and I think there will be a big row about the
:02:05. > :02:09.OBE are forecast because they cannot set out a range, they have to commit
:02:10. > :02:19.to one forecast. Everything they do is incredibly political. DOB are is
:02:20. > :02:26.on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are -- the Office for Budget
:02:27. > :02:30.Responsibility. I don't know how they will square the circle. It is
:02:31. > :02:33.an interesting week. It is all about the economy and public finances and
:02:34. > :02:38.we don't have to talk about Brexit until next Sunday, but no, I have a
:02:39. > :02:48.terrible feeling that by the end of Wednesday afternoon we will be
:02:49. > :02:51.screaming and shouting about how Brexit is going to be for the
:02:52. > :02:55.economy. Just imagine the Treasury comes out with his forecast that it
:02:56. > :03:04.is going to collapse growth and collapsed Treasury takings, people
:03:05. > :03:10.will be apoplectic. Until now, the economy has continued to grow
:03:11. > :03:13.strongly. Pretty well. They cannot say, we have noticed it slowing down
:03:14. > :03:18.and that will continue. They have to take a punt if they think it will
:03:19. > :03:21.slow down. It affects the Chancellor's figures, because the
:03:22. > :03:27.more they say it is slowing down, and I have seen that it will go from
:03:28. > :03:31.2% down to 1.4%, the more the Chancellor's deficit rises even
:03:32. > :03:35.without any more tax cuts and spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is
:03:36. > :03:40.right. What we will see this week is a continuation of the debate we have
:03:41. > :03:43.been having all along. If the Office for Budget Responsibility has
:03:44. > :03:53.negative and gloomy predictions, there will be howls of agony, and
:03:54. > :03:56.rightly howls of frustration from Brexiteers who will say that all the
:03:57. > :04:00.dire predictions from before the referendum have not come to pass and
:04:01. > :04:07.now you are talking things down in a way that becomes a self-fulfilling
:04:08. > :04:13.prophecy. The money for roads, you were dismissive about it, but every
:04:14. > :04:17.little helps. I don't dismiss it, I say it doesn't amount to a fiscal
:04:18. > :04:26.stimulus in macro economic terms. I'm sure if you are on that road, it
:04:27. > :04:33.will be useful. They are going to build a super highway between Oxford
:04:34. > :04:41.and Cambridge. I would like to see them go out to Japan and learn how
:04:42. > :04:44.to fill a hole in two days. I would suggest the road from Oxford to
:04:45. > :04:48.Cambridge is not for the just managing classes, even though it
:04:49. > :04:59.goes through Milton Keynes, and that simply freezing due freezing fuel
:05:00. > :05:04.duty isn't going to hack it, either. These just about managing people are
:05:05. > :05:07.potentially quite a big band. With income tax rises, it means anything
:05:08. > :05:11.you do to help them is incredibly expensive. The universal credit
:05:12. > :05:17.freeze is an interesting example of that. Philip Hammond sounded
:05:18. > :05:25.ambivalent about it after pre-briefings that it might not, the
:05:26. > :05:28.cuts might not go ahead. There are people who are in work but because
:05:29. > :05:34.they are low paid don't have the number of hours, they require
:05:35. > :05:39.welfare benefits to top up their pay, and these welfare benefits, as
:05:40. > :05:43.it stands, are frozen until 2020, and yet inflation is now starting to
:05:44. > :05:49.rise. That's a problem for the just managing people. Correct. It is
:05:50. > :05:57.worse than that, because we are talking about April 2017 when tax
:05:58. > :06:03.credits become universal credits, so the squeeze will be greater. We will
:06:04. > :06:08.get a small highway between a couple of university towns, but if he has
:06:09. > :06:14.any money left to spend at all, it will be on some pretty seismic
:06:15. > :06:20.jazzman for the just about managing people. I am so glad we're not
:06:21. > :06:26.calling them Jams on this programme, because it is a patronising tone.
:06:27. > :06:35.What the Chancellor and Shadow Chancellor did not confront is that
:06:36. > :06:39.Mr Trump's election is a watershed in terms of being able to borrow
:06:40. > :06:42.cheaply. The Federal Reserve is about to start raising rates. The
:06:43. > :06:47.days of cheap borrowing for governments could be coming to an
:06:48. > :06:51.end. You can feel a bit sorry for labour here because after having had
:06:52. > :06:54.six years of being told that we need a surplus and these things are
:06:55. > :06:58.important, we can't deny the deficit, we have switched now and
:06:59. > :07:05.the first thing that Philip Hammond did was to scrap George Osborne's
:07:06. > :07:08.borrowing targets. He has given himself more wriggle room than
:07:09. > :07:16.George Osborne had. He has and it will cost them more. Debt servicing
:07:17. > :07:17.will now rise as a cost. Where is the next political earthquake going
:07:18. > :07:24.to happen? It could be Italy, or the French
:07:25. > :07:30.elections coming up next spring. Now, who will face the Front
:07:31. > :07:33.National's Marine Le Pen in next year's French Presidential
:07:34. > :07:34.elections? Well, France's centre-right
:07:35. > :07:36.part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate
:07:37. > :07:38.in the first round of Well, France's centre-right
:07:39. > :07:40.part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate
:07:41. > :07:44.in the first round of Let's speak to our correspondent
:07:45. > :07:57.in Paris, Hugh Schofield. Welcome to the programme. Three main
:07:58. > :08:03.candidates, the former -- two former prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy,
:08:04. > :08:07.the former president. It is not clear who the front runner is.
:08:08. > :08:17.Robbins it is quite an exciting race, because four weeks it did look
:08:18. > :08:25.as if it was going to be Juppe. It is a two round race. Two go through
:08:26. > :08:29.and the idea is that they rally all the support together. It looked like
:08:30. > :08:33.the first round would be dominated by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and
:08:34. > :08:42.there was a clear binary combination there, because Sarkozy was looking
:08:43. > :08:44.for squeamish far right voters. In other words, veering clearly to the
:08:45. > :08:51.right and far right on immigration and identity issues. And Juppe is
:08:52. > :08:56.the opposite, saying we had to appeal to the centre. That was what
:08:57. > :09:00.it looked like. But the third candidate has made this really quite
:09:01. > :09:05.staggering surge in the last few days. There was a debate on Thursday
:09:06. > :09:10.and he was deemed to have won it on television. He is coming up
:09:11. > :09:13.strongly, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him go through,
:09:14. > :09:19.which would be interesting from a British perspective, because if the
:09:20. > :09:23.becomes president, he will be the first president with a British wife.
:09:24. > :09:31.His wife Penelope is Welsh. We will have to leave it there. I
:09:32. > :09:33.would suggest that the reason it is fascinating is that whoever wins
:09:34. > :09:38.this primary for the centre-right party is likely to be the next
:09:39. > :09:42.president, and who the next president is will be very important
:09:43. > :09:46.for Britain in these Brexit negotiations. Nothing will really
:09:47. > :09:51.happen until it is determined. Then after the German elections in
:09:52. > :09:56.October. I would add one more constituent part. The most important
:09:57. > :10:03.thing about the race is who can stop Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will
:10:04. > :10:12.almost be one of the ones in the run-off. The Socialists don't expect
:10:13. > :10:19.much. Francois Hollande is done. There is too much of a cliff to
:10:20. > :10:24.climb. Which one of these three centre-right candidates can stop
:10:25. > :10:28.Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit and Trump, but we could also have
:10:29. > :10:36.Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy, it is the battle of the right. In some
:10:37. > :10:43.areas, he has moved to the right of marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he
:10:44. > :10:46.has do in order to take the wind out of our sails. You wonder if she
:10:47. > :10:50.could succeed later on if she does not this time. Talking to French
:10:51. > :10:54.analysts last night, there was suggesting that she could not do it
:10:55. > :10:58.this time but could win the next time. All the events in France over
:10:59. > :11:02.the last year seemed to provide the most propitious circumstances for
:11:03. > :11:08.her to do well, and particularly if you throw in Trump and Brexit.
:11:09. > :11:13.Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he goes through and wins the Republican
:11:14. > :11:20.nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen go through to the second round, that
:11:21. > :11:24.would mean, think about it, is that a lot of French socialist voters and
:11:25. > :11:32.those on the father left would have to grit their teeth and vote for
:11:33. > :11:36.Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do it. We might see what we saw in
:11:37. > :11:48.America, where lots of potential Clinton voters did not turn out. You
:11:49. > :11:51.got politicians like Melanchon on the far left saying there are
:11:52. > :11:58.foreign workers taking bread out of French workers' mounts. We sometimes
:11:59. > :12:04.forget, because we tend to emphasise the National of the National front,
:12:05. > :12:15.but actually, there are economic policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is
:12:16. > :12:27.the Hillary Clinton of the French elections. He is Mr establishment.
:12:28. > :12:32.Juppe and the other third candidate are the same. You have to
:12:33. > :12:35.re-establish candidates running against an antiestablishment
:12:36. > :12:39.candidate. There are populist economic policies from the National
:12:40. > :12:42.front. The other three want to raise the retirement age and cut back on
:12:43. > :12:51.the 35 hour week, which are not classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe
:12:52. > :12:54.used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux. And we are the biggest importers of
:12:55. > :13:03.claret, so that could have an effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear
:13:04. > :13:11.against John Marine Le Pen, and the socialist campaign slogan was, vote
:13:12. > :13:12.for the Crook, not the fascist. We will see what they come up with this
:13:13. > :13:14.time. The Daily Politics is back at noon
:13:15. > :13:19.tomorrow on BBC Two, where on Wednesday I will have full
:13:20. > :13:25.coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn But remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:26. > :13:34.it's the Sunday Politics.