:00:36. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:44.Was Fidel Castro a revolutionary hero or a murderous dictator?
:00:45. > :00:49.After the Cuban leader's death, politicians divide over his legacy.
:00:50. > :00:53.Can the NHS in England find billions of pounds' worth of efficiency
:00:54. > :00:59.The Shadow Health Secretary joins me live.
:01:00. > :01:01.Should we have a second Brexit referendum on the terms
:01:02. > :01:06.of the eventual withdrawal deal that's struck with the EU?
:01:07. > :01:08.Former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown and former Conservative cabinet
:01:09. > :01:13.minister Owen Paterson go head-to-head.
:01:14. > :01:16.On the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire,
:01:17. > :01:19.we find out what's being done to avert a winter crisis in the NHS.
:01:20. > :01:20.Can our hospitals cope with increased demand
:01:21. > :01:34.And with me, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.
:01:35. > :01:37.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme
:01:38. > :01:44.Political leaders around the world have been reacting to the news
:01:45. > :01:46.of the death of Fidel Castro, the Cuban revolutionary who came
:01:47. > :01:50.to power in 1959 and ushered in a Marxist revolution.
:01:51. > :01:56.Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson described the former leader
:01:57. > :01:58.as an "historic if controversial figure" and said his death marked
:01:59. > :02:02.Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said Castro was "a champion of social
:02:03. > :02:05.justice" who had "seen off a lot of US presidents"
:02:06. > :02:09.President-elect Donald Trump described the former Cuban leader
:02:10. > :02:13.as a "brutal dictator", adding that he hoped his death
:02:14. > :02:16.would begin a new era "in which the wonderful Cuban people
:02:17. > :02:21.finally live in the freedom they so richly deserve".
:02:22. > :02:22.Meanwhile, the President of the European Commission,
:02:23. > :02:26.Jean-Claude Juncker, said the controversial leader
:02:27. > :02:28.was "a hero for many" but "his legacy will be judged
:02:29. > :02:43.I guess we had worked that out ourselves. What do you make of the
:02:44. > :02:48.reactions so far across the political divide? Predictable. And I
:02:49. > :02:55.noticed that Jeremy Corbyn has come in for criticism for his tribute to
:02:56. > :03:00.Castro. But I think it was the right thing for him to do. We all know he
:03:01. > :03:03.was an admirer. He could have sat there for eight hours in his house,
:03:04. > :03:06.agonising over some bland statement which didn't alienate the many
:03:07. > :03:11.people who want to wade into attacked Castro. It would have been
:03:12. > :03:15.inauthentic and would have just added to the sort of mainstream
:03:16. > :03:19.consensus, and I think he was right to say what he believed in this
:03:20. > :03:25.respect. Elsewhere, it has been wholly predictable that there would
:03:26. > :03:30.be this device, because he divided opinion in such an emotive way.
:03:31. > :03:33.Steve, I take your point about authenticity and it might have
:03:34. > :03:39.looked a bit lame for Jeremy Corbyn to pretend that he had no affection
:03:40. > :03:44.for Fidel Castro at all, but do you think he made a bit of an error
:03:45. > :03:48.dismissing Castro's record, the negative side of it as just a floor?
:03:49. > :03:55.He could have acknowledged in more elaborate terms the huge costs. He
:03:56. > :03:58.wanted to go on about the health and education, which if you actually
:03:59. > :04:01.look up the indices on that, they are good relative to other
:04:02. > :04:08.countries. But they have come at such a huge cost. He was not a
:04:09. > :04:11.champion of criminal justice. If he had done that, it would have been
:04:12. > :04:17.utterly inauthentic. He doesn't believe it. And he would have
:04:18. > :04:21.thought there would be many other people focusing on all the epic
:04:22. > :04:28.failings. So he focused on what he believed. There are times when
:04:29. > :04:33.Corbyn's prominence in the media world now as leader widens the
:04:34. > :04:40.debate in an interesting and important way. I am not aware of any
:04:41. > :04:51.criticisms that Mr Corbyn has ever announced about Mr Castro. There
:04:52. > :04:54.were four words in his statement yesterday which is spin doctor would
:04:55. > :05:04.have forced him to say, for all his flaws. He was on this Cuban
:05:05. > :05:08.solidarity committee, which didn't exist to criticise Castro. It
:05:09. > :05:12.existed to help protect Castro from those, particularly the Americans,
:05:13. > :05:16.who were trying to undermine him. And Corbyn made a big deal yesterday
:05:17. > :05:22.saying he has always called out human rights abuses all over the
:05:23. > :05:27.world. But he said that in general, I call out human rights abuses. He
:05:28. > :05:34.never said, I have called out human rights abuses in Cuba. In the weeks
:05:35. > :05:41.ahead, more will come out about what these human rights abuses were. The
:05:42. > :05:47.lid will come off what was actually happening. Some well authenticated
:05:48. > :05:54.stories are pretty horrendous. I was speaking to a journalist who was
:05:55. > :06:00.working there in the 1990s, who gave me vivid examples of that, and there
:06:01. > :06:05.will be more to come. I still go back to, when a major figure diet
:06:06. > :06:11.and you are a leader who has admired but major figure, you have to say
:06:12. > :06:27.it. That is the trap he has fallen into. He has proved every criticism
:06:28. > :06:33.that he is a duck old ideologue. But he is not the only one. Prime
:06:34. > :06:40.Minister Trudeau was so if uses that I wondered if they were going to
:06:41. > :06:44.open up a book of condolences. I think it reinforces Corbyn's failing
:06:45. > :06:48.brand. It may be authentic, but authentic isn't working for him.
:06:49. > :06:55.When I was driving, I heard Trevor Phillips, who is a Blairite, saying
:06:56. > :07:00.the record was mixed and there were a lot of things to admire as well as
:07:01. > :07:03.all the terrible things. So it is quite nuanced. But if you are a
:07:04. > :07:08.leader issuing a sound bite, there is no space for new ones. You either
:07:09. > :07:15.decide to go for the consensus, which is to set up on the whole, it
:07:16. > :07:19.was a brutal dictatorship. Or you say, here is an extraordinary figure
:07:20. > :07:24.worthy of admiration. In my view, he was right to say what he believed.
:07:25. > :07:27.There was still a dilemma for the British government over who they
:07:28. > :07:34.sent to the funeral. Do they sent nobody, do they say and Boris
:07:35. > :07:42.Johnson as a post-ironic statement? There is now a post-Castro Cuba to
:07:43. > :07:45.deal with. Trump was quite diplomatic about post-Castro Cuba.
:07:46. > :07:55.And Boris Johnson's statement was restrained. The thing about Mr
:07:56. > :07:57.Castro was the longevity, 50 years of keeping Marxism on the island.
:07:58. > :07:59.That was what made it so fascinating.
:08:00. > :08:03.Before the last election, George Osborne promised the NHS
:08:04. > :08:06.in England a real-terms funding boost of ?8 billion per year by 2020
:08:07. > :08:09.on the understanding that NHS bosses would also find ?22 billion worth
:08:10. > :08:16.Since last autumn, NHS managers have been drawing up what they're calling
:08:17. > :08:19."Sustainability and Transformation Plans" to make these savings,
:08:20. > :08:25.but some of the proposals are already running into local
:08:26. > :08:28.opposition, while Labour say they amount to huge cuts to the NHS.
:08:29. > :08:34.Help is on the way for an elderly person in need in Hertfordshire.
:08:35. > :08:38.But east of England ambulance call operators
:08:39. > :08:42.they're sending an early intervention vehicle
:08:43. > :08:49.with a council-employed occupational therapist on board.
:08:50. > :08:51.It's being piloted here for over 65s with
:08:52. > :08:57.When they arrive, a paramedic judges if the patient can be
:08:58. > :09:00.treated immediately at home without a trip to hospital.
:09:01. > :09:02.Around 80% of patients have been treated this way,
:09:03. > :09:05.taking the strain off urgently-needed hospital beds,
:09:06. > :09:11.So the early intervention team has assessed the patient and decided
:09:12. > :09:24.The key to successful integration for Hertfordshire being able
:09:25. > :09:27.to collaboratively look at how we use our resources,
:09:28. > :09:29.to have pooled budgets, to allow us to understand
:09:30. > :09:32.where spend is, and to let us make conscientious decisions about how
:09:33. > :09:37.best to use that money, to come up with ideas to problems
:09:38. > :09:39.that sit between our organisations, to look at things collaboratively.
:09:40. > :09:41.This Hertfordshire hospital is also a good example of how
:09:42. > :09:49.You won't find an A unit or overnight beds here any more.
:09:50. > :09:55.The closest ones are 20 minutes down the road.
:09:56. > :09:57.What's left is nurse-led care in an NHS-built hospital.
:09:58. > :10:00.Despite a politically toxic change, this reconfiguration went
:10:01. > :10:02.through after broad public and political consultation
:10:03. > :10:06.with hospital clinicians and GPs on board.
:10:07. > :10:10.It's a notable achievement that's surely of interest to 60% of NHS
:10:11. > :10:16.trusts in England that reported a deficit at the end of September.
:10:17. > :10:19.It's not just here that the NHS needs to save money and provide
:10:20. > :10:26.The Government is going to pour in an extra ?8 billion into the NHS
:10:27. > :10:32.in England, but it has demanded ?22 billion
:10:33. > :10:34.worth of efficiencies across the country.
:10:35. > :10:37.In order to deliver that, the NHS has created 44 health
:10:38. > :10:39.and care partnerships, and each one will provide
:10:40. > :10:44.a sustainability and transformation plan, or STP, to integrate care,
:10:45. > :10:47.provide better services and save money.
:10:48. > :10:52.So far, 33 of these 44 regional plans, drawn up by senior people
:10:53. > :10:54.in the health service and local government,
:10:55. > :11:01.The NHS has been through five years of severely constrained spending
:11:02. > :11:04.growth, and there are another 4-5 years on the way at least.
:11:05. > :11:11.STPs themselves are an attempt to deal in a planned way
:11:12. > :11:17.But with plans to close some A units and reduce the number
:11:18. > :11:22.of hospital beds, there's likely to be a tough political battle
:11:23. > :11:26.ahead, with many MPs already up in arms about proposed
:11:27. > :11:30.This Tory backbencher is concerned about the local plans for his
:11:31. > :11:38.I wouldn't call it an efficiency if you are proposing to close
:11:39. > :11:41.all of the beds which are currently provided for those coming out
:11:42. > :11:43.of the acute sector who are elderly and looking
:11:44. > :11:47.That's not a cut, it's not an efficiency saving,
:11:48. > :11:55.All 44 STPs should be published in a month's time,
:11:56. > :12:01.But even before that, they dominated this week's PMQs.
:12:02. > :12:03.The Government's sustainability and transformation plans
:12:04. > :12:09.for the National Health Service hide ?22 billion of cuts.
:12:10. > :12:12.The National Health Service is indeed looking for savings
:12:13. > :12:16.within the NHS, which will be reinvested in the NHS.
:12:17. > :12:20.There will be no escape from angry MPs for the Health Secretary either.
:12:21. > :12:23.Well, I have spoken to the Secretary of State just this week
:12:24. > :12:28.about the importance of community hospitals in general,
:12:29. > :12:34.These are proposals out to consultation.
:12:35. > :12:39.What could happen if these plans get blocked?
:12:40. > :12:42.If STPs cannot be made to work, the planned changes don't come
:12:43. > :12:47.to pass, then the NHS will see over time a sort of unplanned
:12:48. > :12:49.deterioration and services becoming unstable and service
:12:50. > :12:56.The NHS barely featured in this week's Autumn Statement
:12:57. > :13:03.but the Prime Minister insisted beforehand that STPs
:13:04. > :13:04.are in the interests of local people.
:13:05. > :13:07.Her Government's support will now be critical for NHS England
:13:08. > :13:08.to push through these controversial regional plans,
:13:09. > :13:15.which will soon face public scrutiny.
:13:16. > :13:20.We did ask the Department of Health for an interview,
:13:21. > :13:23.I've been joined by the Shadow Health Secretary,
:13:24. > :13:41.Do you accept that the NHS is capable of making ?22 billion of
:13:42. > :13:44.efficiency savings? Well, we are very sceptical, as are number of
:13:45. > :13:49.independent organisations about the ability of the NHS to find 22
:13:50. > :13:53.billion of efficiencies without that affecting front line care. When you
:13:54. > :13:56.drill down into the 22 billion, based on the information we have
:13:57. > :14:00.been given, and there hasn't been much information, we can see that
:14:01. > :14:04.some of it will come from cutting the budget which go to community
:14:05. > :14:08.pharmacies, which could lead, according to ministers, to 3000
:14:09. > :14:12.pharmacies closing, which we believe will increase demands on A and
:14:13. > :14:17.GPs, and also that a lot of these changes which are being proposed,
:14:18. > :14:24.which was the focus of the package, we think will mean service cuts at a
:14:25. > :14:30.local level. Do they? The chief executive of NHS England says these
:14:31. > :14:34.efficiency plans are "Incredibly important". He used to work from
:14:35. > :14:41.Labour. The independent King's Fund calls them "The best hope to improve
:14:42. > :14:47.health and care services. There is no plan B". On the sustainable
:14:48. > :14:51.transformation plans, which will be across England to link up physical
:14:52. > :14:55.health, mental health and social care, for those services to
:14:56. > :14:58.collaborate more closely together and move beyond the fragmented
:14:59. > :15:04.system we have at the moment is important. It seems that the ground
:15:05. > :15:08.has shifted. It has moved into filling financial gaps. As we know,
:15:09. > :15:13.the NHS is going through the biggest financial squeeze in its history. By
:15:14. > :15:17.2018, per head spending on the NHS will be falling. If you want to
:15:18. > :15:23.redesign services for the long term in a local area, you need to put the
:15:24. > :15:25.money in. So of course, getting these services working better
:15:26. > :15:29.together and having a greater strategic oversight, which we would
:15:30. > :15:34.have had if we had not got rid of strategic health authority is in the
:15:35. > :15:40.last Parliament. But this is not an attempt to save 22 billion, this is
:15:41. > :15:46.an attempt to spend 22 billion more successfully, don't you accept that?
:15:47. > :15:53.Simon Stevens said we need 8 billion, and we need to find 22
:15:54. > :15:59.billion of savings. You have to spend 22 billion more efficiently.
:16:00. > :16:03.But the Government have not given that 8 billion to the NHS which they
:16:04. > :16:09.said they would. They said they would do it by 2020. But they have
:16:10. > :16:14.changed the definitions of spending so NHS England will get 8 billion by
:16:15. > :16:20.2020, but they have cut the public health budgets by about 4 million by
:16:21. > :16:24.20 20. The budget that going to initiatives to tackle sexually
:16:25. > :16:29.transmitted diseases, to tackle smoking have been cut back but the
:16:30. > :16:33.commissioning of things like school nurses and health visitors have been
:16:34. > :16:38.cut back as well. Simon Stevens said he can only deliver that five-year
:16:39. > :16:41.project if there is a radical upgrade in public health, which the
:16:42. > :16:47.Government have failed on, and if we deal with social care, and this week
:16:48. > :16:54.there was an... I understand that, but if you don't think the
:16:55. > :16:59.efficiency drive can free up 22 billion to take us to 30 billion by
:17:00. > :17:03.2020, where would you get the money from? I have been in this post now
:17:04. > :17:07.for five or six weeks and I want to have a big consultation with
:17:08. > :17:12.everybody who works in the health sector, as well as patients, carers
:17:13. > :17:19.and families. Though you don't know? I think it would be surprised if I
:17:20. > :17:26.had an arbitrary figure this soon into the job. Your party said they
:17:27. > :17:30.expected election of spring by this year, you need to have some idea by
:17:31. > :17:35.now, you inherited a portfolio from Diane Abbott, did she have no idea?
:17:36. > :17:40.To govern is to make choices and we would make different choices. The
:17:41. > :17:47.budget last year scored billions of giveaways in things like
:17:48. > :17:58.co-operating -- corporation tax. What I do want to do... Is work on a
:17:59. > :18:04.plan and the general election, whenever it comes, next year or in
:18:05. > :18:08.2020 or in between, to have costed plan for the NHS. But your party is
:18:09. > :18:14.committed to balancing the books on current spending, that is currently
:18:15. > :18:19.John McDonnell, the Shadow Chancellor's position. What we are
:18:20. > :18:24.talking about, this extra 30 billion, that is essentially current
:18:25. > :18:27.spending so if it doesn't come from efficiency savings, where does the
:18:28. > :18:35.money come from? Some of it is also capital. Mainly current spending. If
:18:36. > :18:46.you look at the details of the OBR, they have switched a million from
:18:47. > :18:50.the capital into revenue. Why -- how do you balance spending?
:18:51. > :18:58.That is why we need to have a debate. Every time we ask for
:18:59. > :19:03.Labour's policy, we are always told me a debate. Surely it is time to
:19:04. > :19:06.give some idea of what you stand for? There's huge doubts about the
:19:07. > :19:11.Government 's policy on this. You are the opposition, how would you do
:19:12. > :19:16.it? I want to work with John McDonnell to find a package to give
:19:17. > :19:19.the NHS the money it needs, but of course our Shadow Chancellor, like
:19:20. > :19:23.any Shadow Chancellor at this stage in the cycle, will want to see what
:19:24. > :19:29.the books look like a head of an election before making commitments.
:19:30. > :19:32.I am clear that the Labour Party has to go into the next general election
:19:33. > :19:35.with a clear policy to give the NHS the funding it needs because it has
:19:36. > :19:40.been going through the largest financial squeeze in its history.
:19:41. > :19:45.You say Labour will always give the NHS the money it needs, that is not
:19:46. > :19:50.a policy, it is a blank cheque. It is an indication of our commitment
:19:51. > :19:55.to the NHS. Under this Conservative government, the NHS has been getting
:19:56. > :20:00.a 1% increase. Throughout its history it has usually have about
:20:01. > :20:04.4%. Under the last Labour government it was getting 4%, before that
:20:05. > :20:08.substantially more. We think the NHS should get more but I don't have
:20:09. > :20:17.access to the NHS books in front of me. The public thinks there needs to
:20:18. > :20:21.be more money spent on health but they also think that should go cap
:20:22. > :20:27.in hand with the money being more efficiently spent, which is what
:20:28. > :20:32.this efficiency drive is designed to release 22 billion. Do you have an
:20:33. > :20:37.efficiency drive if it is not the Government's one? Of course we
:20:38. > :20:42.agree. We agree the NHS should be more efficient, we want to see
:20:43. > :20:49.productivity increased. Do know how to do that? One way is through
:20:50. > :20:56.investments, maintenance, but there is a 5 million maintenance backlog.
:20:57. > :21:03.One of the most high risk backlogs is something like 730 million. They
:21:04. > :21:06.are going to switch the capital spend into revenue spend. I believe
:21:07. > :21:10.that when you invest in maintenance and capital in the NHS, that
:21:11. > :21:14.contribute to increasing its productivity. You are now talking
:21:15. > :21:20.about 5 billion the maintenance, the chief executive says it needs 30
:21:21. > :21:27.billion more by 2020 as a minimum so that 35 billion. You want to spend
:21:28. > :21:31.more on social care, another for 5 billion on that so we have proper
:21:32. > :21:35.care in the community. By that calculation I'm up to about 40
:21:36. > :21:40.billion, which is fine, except where do you get the and balance the
:21:41. > :21:44.account at the same time? We will have to come up with a plan for that
:21:45. > :21:47.and that's why I will work with our Shadow Treasury team to come up with
:21:48. > :21:52.that plan when they head into the general election. At the moment we
:21:53. > :21:55.are saying to the NHS, sorry, we are not going to give you the
:21:56. > :22:03.investment, which is why we are seeing patient care deteriorating.
:22:04. > :22:09.The staff are doing incredible things but 180,000 are waiting in
:22:10. > :22:12.A beyond four hours, record levels of people delayed in beds in
:22:13. > :22:17.hospitals because there are not the beds in the community to go to save
:22:18. > :22:20.the NHS needs the investment. We know that and we know the
:22:21. > :22:24.Government's response to that and many think it is inadequate. What
:22:25. > :22:28.I'm trying to get from you is what your response would be and what your
:22:29. > :22:33.reaction will be to these efficiency plans. Your colleague Heidi
:22:34. > :22:39.Alexander, she had your job earlier this year, she warned of the danger
:22:40. > :22:46.of knee jerk blanket opposition to local efficiency plans. Do you agree
:22:47. > :22:52.with that? Yes. So every time a hospital is going to close as a
:22:53. > :22:56.result of this, and some will, it is Labour default position not just
:22:57. > :23:00.going to be we are against it? That is why we are going to judge each of
:23:01. > :23:05.these sustainability plans by a number of yardsticks. We want to see
:23:06. > :23:08.if they have the support of local clinicians, we want to see if they
:23:09. > :23:11.have the support of local authorities because they now have a
:23:12. > :23:15.role in the delivery of health care. We want to see if they make the
:23:16. > :23:20.right decisions for the long-term trends in population for local area.
:23:21. > :23:23.We want to see if they integrate social care and health. If they
:23:24. > :23:29.don't and therefore you will not bank that as an efficiency saving,
:23:30. > :23:33.you will say no, that's not the way to go, you are left then with
:23:34. > :23:39.finding the alternative funding to keep the NHS going. If you are
:23:40. > :23:45.cutting beds, for example the proposal is to cut something like
:23:46. > :23:49.5000 beds in Derbyshire and if there is the space in the community sector
:23:50. > :23:53.in Derbyshire, that will cause big problems for the NHS in the long
:23:54. > :23:58.term so it is a false economy. An example like that, we would be very
:23:59. > :24:02.sceptical the plans could work. Would it not be honest, given the
:24:03. > :24:07.sums of money involved and your doubts about the efficiency plan,
:24:08. > :24:13.which are shared by many people, to just say, look, among the wealthy
:24:14. > :24:18.nations, we spend a lower proportion of our GDP on health than most of
:24:19. > :24:24.the other countries, European countries included, we need to put
:24:25. > :24:29.up tax if we want a proper NHS. Wouldn't that be honest? I'm not the
:24:30. > :24:35.Shadow Chancellor, I don't make taxation policy. You are tempting me
:24:36. > :24:39.down a particular road by you or I smile. John McDonnell will come up
:24:40. > :24:43.with our taxation policy. We have had an ambition to meet the European
:24:44. > :24:46.average, the way these things are measured have changed since then,
:24:47. > :24:53.but we did have that ambition and for a few years we met it. We need
:24:54. > :24:55.substantial investment in the NHS. Everyone accepts it was
:24:56. > :25:00.extraordinary that there wasn't an extra penny for the NHS in the
:25:01. > :25:05.Autumn Statement this week. And as we go into the general election,
:25:06. > :25:09.whenever it is, we will have a plan for the NHS. Come back and speak to
:25:10. > :25:11.us when you know what you are going to do. Thank you.
:25:12. > :25:14.Theresa May has promised to trigger formal Brexit negotiations
:25:15. > :25:16.before the end of March, but the Prime Minister must wait
:25:17. > :25:19.for the Supreme Court to decide whether parliament must vote
:25:20. > :25:22.If that is the Supreme Court's conclusion, the Liberal Democrats
:25:23. > :25:25.and others in parliament have said they'll demand a second EU
:25:26. > :25:27.referendum on the terms of the eventual Brexit deal before
:25:28. > :25:31.And last week, two former Prime Ministers suggested
:25:32. > :25:34.that the referendum result could be reversed.
:25:35. > :25:37.In an interview with the New Statesman on Thursday,
:25:38. > :25:40.Tony Blair said, "It can be stopped if the British people decide that,
:25:41. > :25:42.having seen what it means, the pain-gain cost-benefit analysis
:25:43. > :25:49.John Major also weighed in, telling a meeting
:25:50. > :25:51.of the National Liberal Club that the terms of Brexit
:25:52. > :25:53.were being dictated by the "tyranny of the majority".
:25:54. > :25:56.He also said there is a "perfectly credible case"
:25:57. > :26:00.That prompted the former Conservative leader
:26:01. > :26:03.Iain Duncan Smith to criticise John Major.
:26:04. > :26:05.He told the BBC, "The idea we delay everything simply
:26:06. > :26:08.because they disagree with the original result does
:26:09. > :26:13.seem to me an absolute dismissal of democracy."
:26:14. > :26:16.So, is there a realistic chance of a second referendum on the terms
:26:17. > :26:20.of whatever Brexit deal Theresa May manages to secure?
:26:21. > :26:24.Lib Dem party leader Tim Farron has said, "We want to respect
:26:25. > :26:27.the will of the people and that means they must have their say
:26:28. > :26:31.in a referendum on the terms of the deal."
:26:32. > :26:34.But the Lib Dems have just eight MPs - they'll need Labour support
:26:35. > :26:39.One ally is former Labour leadership candidate Owen Smith.
:26:40. > :26:43.He backs the idea of a second referendum.
:26:44. > :26:46.But yesterday the party's deputy leader, Tom Watson, said that,
:26:47. > :26:48."Unlike the Lib Dem Brexit Deniers, we believe in respecting
:26:49. > :26:56.To discuss whether or not there should be a second referendum
:26:57. > :26:59.on the terms of the Brexit deal, I've been joined by two
:27:00. > :27:03.In Somerset is the former Lib Dem leader Paddy Ashdown,
:27:04. > :27:05.and in Shropshire is the former Conservative cabinet minister
:27:06. > :27:17.Paddy Ashdown, let me come to you first. When the British people have
:27:18. > :27:22.spoken, you do what they command, either you believe in democracy or
:27:23. > :27:29.you don't. When democracy speaks, we obey. Your words on the night of the
:27:30. > :27:33.referendum, what's changed? Nothing has changed, Andrew, that's what I
:27:34. > :27:37.said and what I still believe in. The British people have spoken, we
:27:38. > :27:43.will not block Parliament debating the Brexit decision, Article 50, but
:27:44. > :27:50.we will introduce an amendment to say that we need to consult the
:27:51. > :27:57.British people, not about if we go out but what destination we would
:27:58. > :28:01.then achieve. There is a vast difference in ordinary people's
:28:02. > :28:06.lives between the so-called hard Brexit and soft Brexit. Soft Brexit,
:28:07. > :28:10.you remain in the single market, you have to accept and agree on
:28:11. > :28:18.immigration. Hard Brexit you are out of the single market, we have many
:28:19. > :28:24.fewer jobs... Why didn't you say before the referendum there would be
:28:25. > :28:28.a second referendum on the terms? Forgive me, I said it on many
:28:29. > :28:33.occasions, you may not have covered it, Andrew, but that's a different
:28:34. > :28:38.thing. In every speech I gave I said this, and this has proved to be
:28:39. > :28:41.true, since those who recommended Brexit refused to tell us the
:28:42. > :28:46.destination they were recommending, they refuse to give any detail about
:28:47. > :28:50.the destination, if we did vote to go out, it would probably be
:28:51. > :28:55.appropriate to decide which destination, hard Brexit or soft
:28:56. > :28:59.Brexit we go to. They deliberately obscure that because it made it more
:29:00. > :29:05.difficult to argue the case. It wasn't part of the official campaign
:29:06. > :29:10.but let me come to Owen Paterson. What's wrong with a referendum on
:29:11. > :29:13.the terms of the deal? We voted to leave but we don't really know on
:29:14. > :29:16.what conditions we leave so what's wrong with negotiating the deal and
:29:17. > :29:25.putting that deal to the British people? This would be a ridiculous
:29:26. > :29:29.idea, it would be a complete gift to the EU negotiators to go for an
:29:30. > :29:33.impossibly difficult deal because they want to do everything to make
:29:34. > :29:38.sure that Brexit does not go through. This nonsense idea of hard
:29:39. > :29:42.Brexit and soft Brexit, it was never discussed during the referendum
:29:43. > :29:48.campaign. We made it clear we wanted to take back control, that means
:29:49. > :29:52.making our own laws, raising and spending the money agreed by elected
:29:53. > :29:56.politicians, getting control of our own borders back, and getting
:29:57. > :29:59.control of our ability to do trade deals around the world. That was
:30:00. > :30:05.clear at all stages of the referendum. We got 17.4 million
:30:06. > :30:11.votes, the biggest vote in history for any issue, that 52%, 10% more
:30:12. > :30:16.than John Major got and he was happy with his record number of 14
:30:17. > :30:20.million, more than Tony Blair got, which was 43%, so we have a very
:30:21. > :30:24.clear mandate. Time and again people come up to me and say when are we
:30:25. > :30:28.going to get on with this. The big problem is uncertainty. We want to
:30:29. > :30:30.trigger Article 50, have the negotiation and get to a better
:30:31. > :30:40.place. OK, I need to get a debate going.
:30:41. > :30:44.Paddy Ashdown, the EU doesn't want us to leave. If they knew there was
:30:45. > :30:46.going to be a second referendum, surely there was going to be a
:30:47. > :30:49.second referendum, surely their incentive would be to give us the
:30:50. > :30:54.worst possible deal would vote against it would put us in a
:30:55. > :30:58.ridiculous negotiating position. On the contrary, the government could
:30:59. > :31:01.go and negotiate with the European Union and anyway, the opinion of the
:31:02. > :31:05.European Union is less important than the opinion of the British
:31:06. > :31:10.people. It seems to me that Owen Paterson made the case for me
:31:11. > :31:16.precisely. They refuse to discuss what kind of destination. Britain
:31:17. > :31:18.voted for departure, but not a destination. Because Owen Paterson
:31:19. > :31:24.and his colleagues refused to discuss what their model was. So the
:31:25. > :31:27.range of options here and the impact on the people of Britain is huge.
:31:28. > :31:31.There is nothing to stop the government going to negotiate,
:31:32. > :31:36.getting the best deal it can and go into the British people and saying,
:31:37. > :31:43.this is the deal, guys, do you agree? Owen Paterson? It is simple.
:31:44. > :31:50.The British people voted to leave. We voted to take back control of our
:31:51. > :31:53.laws, our money, our borders. But most people don't know the shape of
:31:54. > :32:01.what the deal would be. So why not have a vote on it? Because it would
:32:02. > :32:06.be a gift to the EU negotiators to drive the worst possible deal in the
:32:07. > :32:09.hope that it might be chucked out with a second referendum. The
:32:10. > :32:16.biggest danger is the uncertainty. We have the biggest vote in British
:32:17. > :32:20.history. You have said all that. It was your side that originally
:32:21. > :32:25.proposed a second referendum. The director of Leave said, there is a
:32:26. > :32:31.strong democratic case for a referendum on what the deal looks
:32:32. > :32:42.like. Your side. Come on, you are digging up a blog from June of 2015.
:32:43. > :32:50.He said he had not come to a conclusion. He said it is a distinct
:32:51. > :32:55.possibility. No senior members of the campaign said we would have a
:32:56. > :32:59.second referendum. It is worth chucking Paddy the quote he gave on
:33:00. > :33:03.ITV news, whether it is a majority of 1% or 20%, when the British
:33:04. > :33:09.people have spoken, you do what they command. People come up to me and
:33:10. > :33:19.keep asking, when are you going to get on with it? What do you say to
:33:20. > :33:22.that, Paddy Ashdown? Owen Paterson has obviously not been paying
:33:23. > :33:32.attention. You ask me that question at the start. Owen and his kind have
:33:33. > :33:36.to stick to the same argument. During the referendum, when we said
:33:37. > :33:42.that the Europeans have it in their interest to picket tough for us,
:33:43. > :33:46.they would suffer as well. And that has proved to be right. The European
:33:47. > :33:51.Union does not wish to hand as a bad deal, because they may suffer in the
:33:52. > :34:03.process. We need the best deal for both sides. I can't understand why
:34:04. > :34:07.Owen is now reversing that argument. Here is the question I am going to
:34:08. > :34:16.ask you. If we have a second referendum on the deal and we vote
:34:17. > :34:27.by a very small amount, by a sliver, to stay in, can we then make it
:34:28. > :34:32.best-of-3? No, Andrew! Vince Cable says he thinks if you won, he would
:34:33. > :34:36.have to have a decider. You will have to put that income tax, because
:34:37. > :34:45.I don't remember when he said that. -- you have to put that in context.
:34:46. > :34:51.Independent, 19th of September. That is a decision on the outcome. The
:34:52. > :34:55.central point is that the British people voted for departure, not a
:34:56. > :35:00.destination. In response to the claim that this is undemocratic, if
:35:01. > :35:06.it is democratic to have one referendum, how can it be
:35:07. > :35:09.undemocratic to have two? Owen Paterson, the British government, on
:35:10. > :35:13.the brink of triggering article 50, cannot tell us if we will remain
:35:14. > :35:19.members of the single market, if we will remain members of the customs
:35:20. > :35:24.union. From that flows our ability to make trade deals, our attitude
:35:25. > :35:26.towards freedom of movement and the rest of it. Given that the
:35:27. > :35:30.government can't tell us, it is clear that the British people have
:35:31. > :35:36.no idea what the eventual shape will be. That is surely the fundamental
:35:37. > :35:43.case for a second referendum. Emphatically not. They have given a
:35:44. > :35:50.clear vote. That vote was to take back control. What the establishment
:35:51. > :35:53.figures like Paddy should recognise is the shattering damage it would do
:35:54. > :36:00.to the integrity of the whole political process if this was not
:36:01. > :36:03.delivered. People come up to me, as I have said for the third time now,
:36:04. > :36:09.wanting to know when we will get article 50 triggered. Both people
:36:10. > :36:13.who have voted to Remain and to Leave. If we do not deliver this, it
:36:14. > :36:17.will be disastrous for the reputation and integrity of the
:36:18. > :36:26.whole political establishment. Let me put that you Paddy Ashdown. It is
:36:27. > :36:29.very Brussels elite - were ask your question but if we don't like the
:36:30. > :36:38.answer, we will keep asking the question. Did it with the Irish and
:36:39. > :36:44.French. It is... It would really anger the British people, would it
:36:45. > :36:49.not? That is an interesting question, Andrew. I don't think it
:36:50. > :36:52.would. All the evidence I see in public meetings I attended, and I
:36:53. > :36:55.think it is beginning to show in the opinion polls, although there hasn't
:36:56. > :36:59.been a proper one on this yet, I suspect there is a majority in
:37:00. > :37:02.Britain who would wish to see a second referendum on the outcome.
:37:03. > :37:07.They take the same view as I do. What began with an open democratic
:37:08. > :37:11.process cannot end with a government stitch up. Contrary to what Owen
:37:12. > :37:18.suggests, there is public support for this. And far from damaging the
:37:19. > :37:23.government and the political class, it showed that we are prepared to
:37:24. > :37:32.listen. We shall see. Paddy Ashdown, have you eaten your hat yet? Andrew,
:37:33. > :37:37.as you well know, I have eaten five hats. You cannot have a second
:37:38. > :37:40.referendum until you eat your hat on my programme. We will leave it
:37:41. > :37:47.there. Paddy Ashdown and Owen Paterson, thank you much. I have
:37:48. > :37:50.eaten a hat on your programme. I don't remember!
:37:51. > :37:52.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:53. > :38:01.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:02. > :38:04.Yes, hello, you're watching the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire,
:38:05. > :38:11.We find out what's being done to avert a winter crisis in the NHS.
:38:12. > :38:14.Can our hospitals cope with increasing demand
:38:15. > :38:20.And, as the man who murdered Jo Cox begins life in prison, we ask,
:38:21. > :38:32.Our guests today are John Mann, Labour MP for Bassetlaw,
:38:33. > :38:34.who's with me in the studio, and at Westminster is
:38:35. > :38:36.Craig Whittaker, Conservative MP for Calder Valley.
:38:37. > :38:49.Hospitals will start the daily reporting of so-called
:38:50. > :38:53.to try to prevent problems that could lead to operations
:38:54. > :38:55.being cancelled and the shutdown of A units at critical times.
:38:56. > :38:59.The past two winters have been the worst for more than a decade
:39:00. > :39:00.with hospitals creaking under the strain.
:39:01. > :39:02.So, what's being done to avoid a full-blown winter crisis?
:39:03. > :39:08.Last winter, an average of around 900 people a week turned up
:39:09. > :39:09.at Harrogate's hospitals with conditions they thought
:39:10. > :39:13.so urgent they needed to go straight to the emergency departments.
:39:14. > :39:16.And this is one of the smallest and quiet hospital trusts
:39:17. > :39:19.across the whole of Yorkshire and the Humber.
:39:20. > :39:23.Down the road in Leeds it was just over 4000.
:39:24. > :39:30.For the health service, those servers billion
:39:31. > :39:34.Ask anybody who arrives on these corridors at an A department
:39:35. > :39:36.like this one here in Harrogate, "why are they here?"
:39:37. > :39:39.and the answer is usually "well, where else do you go?"
:39:40. > :39:47.Well, as far as the NHS is concerned, there are alternatives
:39:48. > :39:49.and they've just launched a big campaign for the
:39:50. > :39:53.to explain to people exactly what those alternatives are.
:39:54. > :39:56.Do you have a long-term health condition or are you over 65?
:39:57. > :39:58.Cold weather can be seriously bad for your health.
:39:59. > :40:01.But there are things you can do to stay well this winter.
:40:02. > :40:03.Make sure you get your prescription medicines before the holidays
:40:04. > :40:08.Your home should be at least 18 Celsius, 65 Fahrenheit.
:40:09. > :40:11.And if you start to feel unwell, even if it is just a cough
:40:12. > :40:13.or a cold, get help from your pharmacist before it
:40:14. > :40:19.We're all here to help you stay well this winter.
:40:20. > :40:22.But many of those turning up here at A say all that advice
:40:23. > :40:26.is very useful but if they want a doctor and can't get a GP
:40:27. > :40:31.appointment, who can blame them for going to hospital?
:40:32. > :40:41.I don't think we can ever make patients were wanting to access care
:40:42. > :40:44.I don't think we can ever blame patients for wanting to access care
:40:45. > :40:47.and that is what we provide but it is also what GPs provide both
:40:48. > :40:51.The services that are offered across the NHS to try to target
:40:52. > :40:54.being able to offer those services to patients in the right way.
:40:55. > :40:58.I think it is very difficult for us to try and get the right messages
:40:59. > :41:00.out to people about which services they need to access.
:41:01. > :41:03.We try and do that and try and assist the public in signposting
:41:04. > :41:07.But there is an argument that the winter crisis or health
:41:08. > :41:10.But there is an argument that the winter crisis for health
:41:11. > :41:13.Beds blocked by patients who should be discharged
:41:14. > :41:18.Amongst the most vocal following that line is the body
:41:19. > :41:21.Our hospitals are under huge pressure and they have
:41:22. > :41:23.been throughout the year and they will continue to be
:41:24. > :41:29.All of us need to play our part in trying to support our hospital
:41:30. > :41:31.colleagues and hospitals to run smoothly to ensure that they only
:41:32. > :41:36.treat patients who really need to be in hospital and that would try
:41:37. > :41:38.and find alternative services elsewhere for patients who don't
:41:39. > :41:49.The promised four hour waiting limits being broken regularly,
:41:50. > :41:51.and even more turning up the hospital.
:41:52. > :41:55.So, John Mann, how confident are you that the NHS can avoid
:41:56. > :42:10.If he'd been on a Saturday night he'd have seen something
:42:11. > :42:12.far more congested even than what he saw in Harrogate.
:42:13. > :42:15.Not enough money, not enough sensible decision-making
:42:16. > :42:18.and the government not even giving the public health budget to the NHS,
:42:19. > :42:21.which is needed to do some of that preventative work that the doctor
:42:22. > :42:27.Greg Whittaker, based on the last couple of years of experience it
:42:28. > :42:30.doesn't bode well for the NHS this winter, does it?
:42:31. > :42:36.I think our NHS locally has coped incredibly well over the last two
:42:37. > :42:46.years and I can speak particularly about Calderdale where we have seen
:42:47. > :42:48.an amount of money for winter contingency being given early
:42:49. > :42:51.on and the doctors planning well in advance for that smooth
:42:52. > :42:53.transition through that traditionally tough period of time.
:42:54. > :42:56.There are some big issues and John is right about things like,
:42:57. > :43:03.you know, the social care and health and well-being budgets being put
:43:04. > :43:10.into health will go a long way to help with the crisis on going.
:43:11. > :43:13.So what are you doing to lobby the government because this
:43:14. > :43:15.is the biggest concern among doctors, the fact that patients
:43:16. > :43:25.don't have anywhere to go when they beat hospital.
:43:26. > :43:27.Yes, absolutely right and actually I spok
:43:28. > :43:29.in the House of Commons only
:43:30. > :43:32.this week on that very subject and it is one of the things
:43:33. > :43:35.that the government had to look at in a real, serious way
:43:36. > :43:38.because this is a crisis and a time bomb waiting to go off.
:43:39. > :43:42.Part of the problem, John Mann, is A is seen by many not as a last
:43:43. > :43:44.resort but often the first resort because they can't
:43:45. > :43:49.Well, there isn't enough money for GPs but one thing
:43:50. > :43:51.the government could do, I have asked them to do it
:43:52. > :43:55.in my area, made a specific request of government that they have not yet
:43:56. > :43:58.responded to, which is give the whole of the social care budget
:43:59. > :44:00.for adults and the whole of the public health budget,
:44:01. > :44:04.That would mean that dealing particularly with elderly
:44:05. > :44:07.people and prevention, the NHS would have total control
:44:08. > :44:09.of the budget and that would give GPs more
:44:10. > :44:13.That would help patients and it would take some
:44:14. > :44:18.But the government is too scared, too scared, to make that
:44:19. > :44:22.decision and I'm offering, we'll go first in my area.
:44:23. > :44:26.I'll head it up in saying we'll take the risks.
:44:27. > :44:40.I say it will work and I say that'll make a huge difference
:44:41. > :44:42.and that is without a penny of extra money.
:44:43. > :44:45.But I also think we could do with more money as well.
:44:46. > :44:49.Craig Whittaker, we found out this week that two thirds of NHS
:44:50. > :44:52.The debts total and eye watering ?1.85 billion.
:44:53. > :44:55.How on earth do we expect the NHS to cope with those figures?
:44:56. > :44:57.To be fair, that budget is reducing year-on-year.
:44:58. > :44:59.They are getting the costs under control and they
:45:00. > :45:03.One thing about the NHS of course is there is still huge
:45:04. > :45:11.On the topic that John has to spoken about,
:45:12. > :45:14.it is not often I agree with John Mann but he is absolutely
:45:15. > :45:19.If we give the GPs and hospitals all this money to get on their way,
:45:20. > :45:22.there will be incentives for them to push through and stop the bed
:45:23. > :45:30.I'm absolutely in agreement with what John was saying.
:45:31. > :45:33.So, are you going to take that message to Jeremy Hunt?
:45:34. > :45:36.As I have said to you, I have already mentioned it
:45:37. > :45:39.in the House of Commons this week and there are more and more people
:45:40. > :45:41.getting on this bandwagon and realising that actually,
:45:42. > :45:44.until we get integration of budgets and stop this silo budgeting
:45:45. > :45:46.right around the NHS, then nothing is going to change,
:45:47. > :45:50.John Mann, you backed the Brexit campaign back in June.
:45:51. > :45:53.Did you ever sign up to this figure that ?350 million a week would be
:45:54. > :45:57.You will remember that I actually tackled Boris Johnson
:45:58. > :45:58.during the campaign in the Treasury Committee
:45:59. > :46:05.I did point out that there's ?650 million that we're not
:46:06. > :46:07.recharging for in governments for their residents,
:46:08. > :46:14.Not the individuals who pay the governments.
:46:15. > :46:20.The Irish government, ?200 million alone,
:46:21. > :46:22.and we're not charging them and that is every year.
:46:23. > :46:25.While over one Parliament that more than gets rid of the hospital
:46:26. > :46:27.deficits and I'm demanding that government takes proper action
:46:28. > :46:30.and listens to me on it and then, that wouldn't cost the taxpayer,
:46:31. > :46:39.There's a proposal this week that patients should have two showed
:46:40. > :46:42.There's a proposal this week that patients should have to show
:46:43. > :46:44.a passport in order to get treatment.
:46:45. > :46:47.I support the principle that if you're coming from abroad
:46:48. > :46:49.you should be recharged, ie your government,
:46:50. > :46:50.not you personally, that is the situation.
:46:51. > :46:53.Every other government in Europe does that to us, rightly so.
:46:54. > :46:58.What a nonsense that the government is throwing away
:46:59. > :47:04.That would be quite a bit of money back into our NHS.
:47:05. > :47:08.Is that something you support, Greg Whittaker, measures to crack
:47:09. > :47:11.down on the number of overseas patients using the health service?
:47:12. > :47:14.Without question, this is one of the wastages in the NHS
:47:15. > :47:22.I think John just mentioned the figure of ?650 million.
:47:23. > :47:25.Imagine how much extra that can do in our hospitals
:47:26. > :47:29.It is vitally important that the NHS start addressing some of these real
:47:30. > :47:33.wastages that are in our system and it is not because
:47:34. > :47:36.they need legislation, the legislation is already there.
:47:37. > :47:39.It is just that they refuse to do it.
:47:40. > :47:43.A topic we will come back to another time no doubt but this week's
:47:44. > :47:45.political events were of course dominated by Philip Hammond's first
:47:46. > :47:48.With our round-up in 60 seconds, here's Richard Edwards.
:47:49. > :47:50.The devil was in the detail PhilipHammond 's announcement
:47:51. > :47:53.on Wednesday with a promise the North would benefit
:47:54. > :48:04.from spending on roads, rail and broadband.
:48:05. > :48:06.I will commit an additional ?1.1 billion of investment
:48:07. > :48:15.But some detail did emerge, such as ?3.7 million for two
:48:16. > :48:17.flood schemes in Otley and Stainforth near Doncaster.
:48:18. > :48:19.Both have been affected by severe flooding in the past.
:48:20. > :48:26.One winner was the World Road Race Cycling Championships,
:48:27. > :48:29.which are coming to Yorkshire in 2019 after the success
:48:30. > :48:36.The event gets ?24 million to help with infrastructure and legacy.
:48:37. > :48:39.But the surprise was more than ?7 million for repairs to
:48:40. > :48:44.The stately home was said to be the inspiration for Pemberly
:48:45. > :48:46.in Jane Austen's novel Pride And Prejudice.
:48:47. > :48:49.The crumbling property is facing a ?50 billion restoration bill.
:48:50. > :48:52.The Chancellor described the building as being at a critical
:48:53. > :48:59.state of being lost to future generations.
:49:00. > :49:01.Yes, Wentworth Woodhouse was probably the only rabbit
:49:02. > :49:04.in the Chancellor's hat this week but let me ask you both,
:49:05. > :49:07.John Mann first of all, are the people, the majority
:49:08. > :49:10.of people you represent, better or worse off as a result
:49:11. > :49:17.Well, we don't know because he hasn't shown us the money.
:49:18. > :49:21.When it comes to infrastructure, in terms of the way the economy
:49:22. > :49:27.is going, what this chap Hammond has done if he has sneakily admitted
:49:28. > :49:30.is going, what this chap Hammond has done is he has sneakily admitted
:49:31. > :49:32.the truth, George Osborne had built up a massive debt,
:49:33. > :49:38.double the debt in six years, and all he has done is confirm that,
:49:39. > :49:42.blames it on Brexit but actually all he has done is said
:49:43. > :49:44.that's the real position, we're in quite a mess,
:49:45. > :49:46.because George Osborne and the Tories have messed up
:49:47. > :49:49.the economy because they haven't invested in manufacturing
:49:50. > :49:56.All they have done is give it away to their friends in the bank.
:49:57. > :49:59.Right, OK Craig Whittaker, John Mann says we're in quite a mess.
:50:00. > :50:03.Well, we are in a mess but trust me, it is not because of anything
:50:04. > :50:05.the Tory government have done over the last six years.
:50:06. > :50:09.We have been trying to sort out the mess and the legacy left
:50:10. > :50:12.But you've been failing, Craig, you been failing on it.
:50:13. > :50:15.All that aside, there are some benefits to a lot of people
:50:16. > :50:24.I know in my constituency without question one of the key
:50:25. > :50:27.things for some of the semi and rural areas is trying to get
:50:28. > :50:36.As is the road network stuff as well, which is vitally important.
:50:37. > :50:40.But, you know, what we do need to see now is we need to see some
:50:41. > :50:42.of this money and this action coming forward.
:50:43. > :50:44.People want to see spades in the grounds.
:50:45. > :50:47.People want to see some of these benefits coming forward because has
:50:48. > :50:53.We have been talking about it for a long time and we need
:50:54. > :50:57.You're right, we have been talking about it for a long time.
:50:58. > :50:59.But the broadband, that was promised by George Osborne.
:51:00. > :51:01.He was going to do it by 2013, then 2015.
:51:02. > :51:04.It is the same old money that hasn't been properly spent.
:51:05. > :51:08.You have to admit, George Osborne doubled the national debt.
:51:09. > :51:11.He was a total disaster as Chancellor and this poor
:51:12. > :51:14.chap Hammond is having to pick up the pieces.
:51:15. > :51:17.Well, he has doubled the national debt, John,
:51:18. > :51:19.because actually the spending plans that you guys left us
:51:20. > :51:29.You can't just turn that tap off straightaway, as you well know.
:51:30. > :51:33.So, let's not make any, let's not be under any illusions
:51:34. > :51:37.here who's fault is it is that we are in the mess that we are in.
:51:38. > :51:40.Are you seriously saying we'd be any less get
:51:41. > :51:51.I offered to be Chancellor but unfortunately Jeremy didn't
:51:52. > :51:53.agree to that but I'm still available should
:51:54. > :51:57.But where I agree with John McDonald is invest in manufacturing.
:51:58. > :52:03.I've got a list of companies who could do with some
:52:04. > :52:06.money to create more jobs in research and development.
:52:07. > :52:13.I'm suggesting they give Bassetlaw ?100 million of this money
:52:14. > :52:18.for housing infrastructure to deliver 5000 houses.
:52:19. > :52:22.I can identify exactly who can build them and where it should be.
:52:23. > :52:26.There were going to hold the government to account
:52:27. > :52:29.on all the waffle they are giving us and I am saying all right,
:52:30. > :52:32.different party in power, I'll be your mates if you can help
:52:33. > :52:35.us out and put that money in my area and therefore, Craig,
:52:36. > :52:39.if you could have words with them, the more money in areas like mine.
:52:40. > :52:43.I suspect it's a lot of hot air because it's Hammond,
:52:44. > :52:46.Surrey MP, who opposed house-building in his own area,
:52:47. > :52:50.doesn't want manufacturing and he's a friend of the bankers.
:52:51. > :52:57.John, as per usual, you're going on about stuff
:52:58. > :53:00.and you know down in Bassetlaw, in the Calder valley,
:53:01. > :53:02.we have 19% of the people in the Calder Valley work
:53:03. > :53:05.in manufacturing, so let us not to walk down our manufacturers
:53:06. > :53:15.Oh, of course we do, without question.
:53:16. > :53:18.But you will see there are some huge announcement this week about R,
:53:19. > :53:21.about research and development, for our universities for example,
:53:22. > :53:24.about how companies can tap into that source
:53:25. > :53:31.I know a lot of companies in the Calder Valley,
:53:32. > :53:33.there's manufacturers who are the backbone
:53:34. > :53:34.of our constituencies, that will be tapping
:53:35. > :53:37.I'll back you getting money in the Calder Valley
:53:38. > :53:39.in manufacturing if you'll back my manufacturers,
:53:40. > :53:41.my house-builders, get them in my area.
:53:42. > :53:45.Go and see Hammond, let's have him delivering the money.
:53:46. > :53:48.Because he needs to show us the money.
:53:49. > :53:51.If he shows us the money, we might get somewhere.
:53:52. > :53:57.Well, John, I think if you've got some bespoke plans already that
:53:58. > :54:01.you're ready to go with I'm sure they'd be very open to listening
:54:02. > :54:04.to how your manufacturers and builders want to spend the money
:54:05. > :54:06.so I'd absolutely support that, as I would for anything
:54:07. > :54:12.Come back to us if and when you manage to squeeze some money out
:54:13. > :54:17.We're going to move on now because on Wednesday Thomas Mair
:54:18. > :54:21.was given a whole life sentence for the murder of the former Batley
:54:22. > :54:25.Now, since Jo's murder, spending on MPs' security
:54:26. > :54:33.So, how has her death affected MPs and concerns for their safety?
:54:34. > :54:40.Of course we feel less safe because in order to do our job
:54:41. > :54:50.and to do it well we have to come out of what he will call
:54:51. > :54:53.and to do it well we have to come out of what people call
:54:54. > :54:55.the Westminster bubble and what keeps democracy alive
:54:56. > :54:57.in this place is going back to your constituency,
:54:58. > :55:00.talking to people on the corner of the street, talking
:55:01. > :55:03.to people at the bus stop, talking to people as you bump
:55:04. > :55:08.That is the beauty of the job and the reality at the core of great
:55:09. > :55:13.That something so awful could happen in a place that is just so ordinary,
:55:14. > :55:16.a place where all of us, I think, would feel comfortable
:55:17. > :55:18.and safe and at home, that something brutal
:55:19. > :55:21.could happen I think is really difficult to comprehend.
:55:22. > :55:27.I personally don't feel any less safe but certainly much more aware
:55:28. > :55:30.of my surroundings and where I'm going and making sure that people
:55:31. > :55:35.know where I am at any given point that I think it's a real shame
:55:36. > :55:39.that we haven't seen this as a watershed moment.
:55:40. > :55:42.It has been incredibly significant, very, very sad and I would hope that
:55:43. > :55:45.people would take a slightly more considered approach to those people
:55:46. > :55:51.We know that there are strongly held views that people have.
:55:52. > :56:01.We are politicians and democrats first and foremost.
:56:02. > :56:04.We have to find ways that we don't take a step back from engaging
:56:05. > :56:07.in that political discourse but that we do provide a safe space
:56:08. > :56:09.and we recruit good people into politics.
:56:10. > :56:17.One of my biggest fears is that we'll find it now harder
:56:18. > :56:19.to attract good, bright, young women into politics
:56:20. > :56:21.as a result of what has happened to Jo.
:56:22. > :56:23.Some thoughts there of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire MPs.
:56:24. > :56:25.Craig Whittaker, do you believe MPs need greater protection
:56:26. > :56:31.It is very difficult and Batley and Spen is physically my neighbour,
:56:32. > :56:41.so it has affected not just us, you know, in west Yorkshire,
:56:42. > :56:45.but a lot of people locally knew Jo and it had a big effect on everybody
:56:46. > :56:47.but we do get a fair level of protection.
:56:48. > :56:49.If we are down in Westminster it is like Fort Knox
:56:50. > :56:53.and since the Jo Cox thing, and in fact prior to the Jo Cox
:56:54. > :56:55.thing, we've been made very much aware of how we can
:56:56. > :56:59.enhance our security, so our homes and our offices.
:57:00. > :57:02.But the reality is the nature of the job, us getting out
:57:03. > :57:05.and about in our communities, which I do on a regular basis,
:57:06. > :57:07.on a weekly basis, it is very, very difficult to protect
:57:08. > :57:12.yourself so, you know, despite what's happened,
:57:13. > :57:15.I carry on and I'm sure John and all my colleagues do,
:57:16. > :57:18.but you are a little bit more aware of the dangers around you.
:57:19. > :57:20.John Mann, Sarah Champion, MP for Rotherham, says
:57:21. > :57:22.she is still waiting for money from IPSA,
:57:23. > :57:24.the expenses watchdog, to pay for security that she has
:57:25. > :57:26.been advised to have from the police.
:57:27. > :57:28.I mean, do you think IPSA is taking this seriously?
:57:29. > :57:39.I think there's been a lot of bureaucracy that in the way
:57:40. > :57:42.I think there's been a lot of bureaucracy put in the way
:57:43. > :57:46.I live in my constituency and I've had to change some
:57:47. > :57:49.Not since this horrendous tragedy but over the last four
:57:50. > :57:52.or five years with various incidents and threats and,
:57:53. > :57:56.you know, it is right and proper that our staff,
:57:57. > :57:57.our families, homes, offices, there is a degree
:57:58. > :58:04.of sensible protection there but we should also remember
:58:05. > :58:06.there are firefighters, ambulance crew, police officers,
:58:07. > :58:12.who are taking risks and getting attacked more regularly than MPs
:58:13. > :58:17.are and, you know, there are limits to what can be done.
:58:18. > :58:22.I don't intend not to make myself available to my constituents.
:58:23. > :58:25.I will walk through the high street constantly and repeatedly
:58:26. > :58:31.There's a bit more of a risk from terrorism or from extremist
:58:32. > :58:35.terrorists like this man who murdered Jo Cox.
:58:36. > :58:42.There's quite a bit we can do but in terms of our private
:58:43. > :58:45.protection there are bits that should and need to be done
:58:46. > :58:48.but I think that is getting done and the public, by the way,
:58:49. > :58:51.shouldn't begrudge spending a bit of extra money to ensure
:58:52. > :58:54.that we have bombproof windows and things like that, just to ensure
:58:55. > :58:59.Craig Whittaker, have politicians become
:59:00. > :59:14.Well, it is difficult, you know, a lot of people say there is only
:59:15. > :59:16.one profession worse than being a politician
:59:17. > :59:19.and that is being a banker, so it is the nature
:59:20. > :59:23.Of course, for every person that agreed with you there is another
:59:24. > :59:29.It is the nature of the job we have also but, you know, the thing
:59:30. > :59:32.about all this level of security and what have you is that actually
:59:33. > :59:35.where we live is our home, just like it is everybody else's
:59:36. > :59:39.We have to do, you know, we do have to feel safe
:59:40. > :59:41.like everybody else does as well so I think people instead
:59:42. > :59:44.of getting on social media and putting out death threats,
:59:45. > :59:47.which has happened to us all or, you know sending that anonymous
:59:48. > :59:49.letter through the post, or whatever it is they are going
:59:50. > :59:55.to do, just think twice about doing it because it is not just the MP
:59:56. > :59:58.you're getting at is quite often the MP's family and of course
:59:59. > :00:00.the staff who work in our offices to that also becomes
:00:01. > :00:04.And just finally John Mann, there is a lot of hate
:00:05. > :00:08.How do we know that the keyboard warrior who comes out with bile
:00:09. > :00:11.on social media isn't going to be a physical threat?
:00:12. > :00:23.You know, good journalists from the BBC get this kind of abuse
:00:24. > :00:28.and the better-known they are, the more they get it.
:00:29. > :00:31.I'd quite like to start sticking billboards up some of these
:00:32. > :00:34.people in their gardens so that their neighbours can see
:00:35. > :00:36.the kinds of people they are and I might start doing
:00:37. > :00:41.that with some of the locals who have sent some unacceptably rude
:00:42. > :00:48.stuff to me and everyone can then judge what they really are.
:00:49. > :00:52.Thank you both for your thoughts today, to John Mann
:00:53. > :00:57.And with that we will now go back to Andrew Neil in London.
:00:58. > :01:00.have got to make sure London is open. Thank you. Andrew, back to
:01:01. > :01:06.you. Is Theresa May serious
:01:07. > :01:08.about curbing executive pay? Who will be crowned Nigel Farage's
:01:09. > :01:11.successor as Ukip leader? And can the Lib Dems pull off
:01:12. > :01:39.a by-election upset in Richmond? So,,, on pay talk about the
:01:40. > :01:42.executive of what executives get compared to the average worker in
:01:43. > :01:47.the company, giving shareholders real power to vote down pay rises if
:01:48. > :01:49.they don't like them, which is pretty much what Ed Miliband
:01:50. > :01:59.proposed in the general election in 2015. Is she serious about this? She
:02:00. > :02:02.is very serious, and the Tory party probably does owe Ed Miliband an
:02:03. > :02:07.apology for trashing his ideas and 2015 and then putting them all up
:02:08. > :02:10.for votes in November 20 16. She is very serious, and this all comes
:02:11. > :02:13.back to her desperate fear that unless capitalism reforms itself and
:02:14. > :02:20.becomes more acceptable to the just about managing or even 78% of the
:02:21. > :02:23.country who are not earning vast wealth at anywhere near the figures
:02:24. > :02:30.you see in the City, serious things will happen and the political sense
:02:31. > :02:33.of trust will implode. She has already been bartered down by her
:02:34. > :02:36.own Cabinet on this. She wanted to go further and make workers on the
:02:37. > :02:43.board mandatory. They have managed to stop that. What will her fallback
:02:44. > :02:51.position be on workers on the board if she is not able to get it into
:02:52. > :02:55.some claw? We would like to have workers on the board, but whatever
:02:56. > :02:59.they do on the board there will have no voting powers on the board. When
:03:00. > :03:04.you look at what was leaked out over the weekend, that we should know the
:03:05. > :03:09.ratio of the top to the average and that shareholders who own the
:03:10. > :03:16.company should determine, in the end, the highest-paid salaries, you
:03:17. > :03:22.kind of think, what could the possible objection be to any of
:03:23. > :03:26.that? Two things. One, I agree with Tom that she is deadly serious about
:03:27. > :03:30.this agenda and it comes under the banner, that sentence in the party
:03:31. > :03:35.conference speech about "It's time to focus on the good that government
:03:36. > :03:40.can do". She is by instinct more of an interventionist than Cameron and
:03:41. > :03:42.Osborne. But she is incredibly cautious, whether it is through the
:03:43. > :03:50.internal constraints of opposition within Cabinet, or her own small C
:03:51. > :03:54.Conservative caution in implementing this stuff. Part of the problem is
:03:55. > :03:58.the practicalities. George Osborne commission will Hutton to do a
:03:59. > :04:01.report which came out with similar proposals, which were never
:04:02. > :04:07.implemented. It is quite hard to enforce. It will antagonise business
:04:08. > :04:11.leaders when she's to woo them again in this Brexit furore. So there are
:04:12. > :04:16.problems with it. And judging by what has happened so far, my guess
:04:17. > :04:19.is that the aim will be genuinely bold and interesting, and the
:04:20. > :04:25.implementation incredibly cautious. Does it matter if she annoys some
:04:26. > :04:30.business leaders? Isn't that part of her brand? Will there be problems on
:04:31. > :04:34.the Tory backbenches with it? I think there will be and I think it
:04:35. > :04:36.does matter at this sensitive time for when we are positioning
:04:37. > :04:41.ourselves as a country and whether we are going to brand ourselves as a
:04:42. > :04:44.great city of business, implementing quite interventionist policies. Any
:04:45. > :04:49.suggestion that the government can control how much the top earners
:04:50. > :04:53.get, I think would be received in a hostile way. What would be wrong
:04:54. > :04:58.with the shareholders, who own the company, determining the pay of the
:04:59. > :05:01.higher hands, the executives? Morally, you can absolutely make
:05:02. > :05:06.that argument but to business leaders, they will not like it.
:05:07. > :05:09.Ultimately, this will not come down to more than a row of beans. There
:05:10. > :05:13.was a huge debate about whether there should be quotas of women on
:05:14. > :05:19.boards. In the end, that never happened. All we get is figures. But
:05:20. > :05:26.quotas of women, for which there is a case and a case against too, that
:05:27. > :05:28.was a government mandate. This is not, this is simply empowering
:05:29. > :05:36.shareholders who own the company to determine the pay of the people they
:05:37. > :05:40.hire. There is a strong moral argument for it. Strong economic
:05:41. > :05:45.argument. But the Tory backbenchers will not like this. The downside is
:05:46. > :05:50.that this is a world where companies are thinking about upping sticks to
:05:51. > :05:55.Europe. No, they say they are thinking of that. Not one has done
:05:56. > :06:00.it yet. Others have made massive investments in this country. But is
:06:01. > :06:06.it not an incentive for those making these threats to actually do it? In
:06:07. > :06:11.Europe, bankers' pay is now mandated by Brussels. It is a vivid way of
:06:12. > :06:21.showing you are addressing the issue of inequality. I think she will go
:06:22. > :06:25.with it, but let's move on to Ukip. I think we will get the result
:06:26. > :06:32.tomorrow. There are the top three candidates. Paul Nuttall, Suzanne
:06:33. > :06:36.Evans and on my right, John Reid Evans. One of them will be the next
:06:37. > :06:41.leader. Who is going to win? It is widely predicted to be Paul Nuttall
:06:42. > :06:45.and is probably the outcome that the Labour Party fears most. Paul
:06:46. > :06:50.Nuttall is a very effective communicator. He is not a household
:06:51. > :06:55.name, far from it, but people will begin to learn more about him and
:06:56. > :07:00.find that he is actually quite a strong leader. Can people Ukip
:07:01. > :07:08.together again after this shambolic period since the referendum? If
:07:09. > :07:13.anyone can, he can. And his brand of working collar, Northern Ukip is the
:07:14. > :07:18.thing that will work for them. Do you think he is the favourite? It
:07:19. > :07:22.would be amazing if he doesn't win. His greatest problem will be getting
:07:23. > :07:29.Nigel Farage off his back. He is going on a speaking tour of North
:07:30. > :07:33.America. A long speaking tour. Ukip won this EU referendum. They had the
:07:34. > :07:38.chance to hoover up these discontented Labour voters in the
:07:39. > :07:42.north, and all he has done is associated with Ukip with Farage.
:07:43. > :07:48.But Nigel Farage is fed up of Ukip and will be glad to be hands of it.
:07:49. > :07:53.The bigger problem is money. If it is Paul Nuttall, and we don't know
:07:54. > :07:56.the results yet, but he is the favourite, if it is him, I would
:07:57. > :08:00.suggest that that is the result Labour is frightened of most. To be
:08:01. > :08:05.honest, I think they are frightened of Ukip whatever the result.
:08:06. > :08:11.Possibly with good cause. The reason I qualify that is that what you call
:08:12. > :08:15.a shambles over the summer has been something that goes beyond Monty
:08:16. > :08:20.Python in its absurdity and madness. That calls into question whether it
:08:21. > :08:25.can function as a political party when you have what has gone on. The
:08:26. > :08:33.number of leaders itself has been an act of madness. In a context which
:08:34. > :08:37.should be fantastic for them. They have won a referendum. There is a
:08:38. > :08:40.debate about what form Brexit should take, it is a dream for them, and
:08:41. > :08:44.they have gone bonkers. If he can turn it around, I agree that he is a
:08:45. > :08:49.powerful media communicator, and then it is a threat to Labour. But
:08:50. > :08:53.he has got to show that first. Indeed. The by-election in Richmond
:08:54. > :08:59.in south-west London, called by Zac Goldsmith over Heathrow. Has it
:09:00. > :09:02.turned out to be a by-election about Heathrow, or has it turned into a
:09:03. > :09:08.by-election, which is what the Lib Dems wanted, about Brexit? We will
:09:09. > :09:12.know on Thursday. If the Lib Dems win, they will turn it into an EU
:09:13. > :09:17.referendum. It seems incredibly close now. The Lib Dems are swamping
:09:18. > :09:21.Richmond. They had 1000 activists there yesterday. That is getting on
:09:22. > :09:26.for 100th of the population of the place! If the Lib Dems don't manage
:09:27. > :09:29.to win on Thursday and don't manage to turn it into an EU referendum
:09:30. > :09:37.despite all their efforts, it will probably be a disaster for the
:09:38. > :09:41.party. What do you hear, Isabel? I hear that the Lib Dems have
:09:42. > :09:45.absolutely swamped the constituency, but this may backfire. I saw a bit
:09:46. > :09:50.of this myself, living in Witney, when the Lib Dems also swamped and
:09:51. > :09:56.people began to get fed up of their aggressive tactics. I understand
:09:57. > :10:03.that Zac Goldsmith is cautiously optimistic that he will pull this
:10:04. > :10:11.one off. Quick stab at the result? I don't know. But we are entering a
:10:12. > :10:14.period when by-elections are acquiring significant again. If the
:10:15. > :10:20.Lib Dems were to make a game, it would breathe life into that near
:10:21. > :10:24.moribund party like nothing else. Similarly, other by-elections in
:10:25. > :10:28.this shapeless political world we are in are going to become
:10:29. > :10:31.significant. We don't know if we are covering it live on Thursday night
:10:32. > :10:37.yet because we have to find at the time they are going to declare.
:10:38. > :10:41.Richmond are quite late in declaring, but if it is in the early
:10:42. > :10:47.hours, that is fine. If it is on breakfast television, they be not. I
:10:48. > :10:52.want to show you this. Michael Gove was on the Andrew Marr Show this
:10:53. > :10:55.morning. In the now notorious comment that I made, I was actually
:10:56. > :10:57.cut off in midstream, as politicians often. The point I made was not that
:10:58. > :11:08.all experts are that is nonsense. Expert engineers, doctors and
:11:09. > :11:11.physicists are not wrong. But there is a subclass of experts,
:11:12. > :11:16.particularly social scientists, who have to reflect on some of the
:11:17. > :11:19.mistakes they have made. And the recession, which was predicted that
:11:20. > :11:26.we would have if we voted to leave, has gone like a puff of smoke. So
:11:27. > :11:29.economic experts, he talks about. The Chancellor has based all of his
:11:30. > :11:37.forward predictions in this Autumn Statement on the economic expert
:11:38. > :11:42.forecasters. The Office for Budget Responsibility has said it is 50-50,
:11:43. > :11:46.which is the toss of a coin. But what was he supposed to do? You
:11:47. > :11:52.would ideally have to have a Budget that had several sets of scenarios,
:11:53. > :11:59.and that is impossible. Crystal ball territory. But you do wonder if
:12:00. > :12:02.governments are right to do so much of their fiscal projections on the
:12:03. > :12:08.basis of forecasts which turn out to be wrong. They have nothing else to
:12:09. > :12:13.go on. The Treasury forecast is to be wrong. No doubt the OBR forecast
:12:14. > :12:16.will prove not to be exact. As you say, they admitted that they are
:12:17. > :12:21.navigating through fog at the moment. But he also added that it
:12:22. > :12:25.was fog caused by Brexit. So Brexit, even if you accept that these
:12:26. > :12:32.forecasts might be wrong, is causing such a level of uncertainty. He put
:12:33. > :12:43.the figure at 60 billion. That could come to haunt him. He hasn't got a
:12:44. > :12:46.clue. He admitted it. He said, Parliament mandates me to come up
:12:47. > :12:50.with something, so I am going to give you a number. But I wouldn't
:12:51. > :12:55.trust it if I were you, he basically said. I agree with you. The man who
:12:56. > :12:58.borrowed 122 billion more off the back of a coin toss was Philip
:12:59. > :13:02.Hammond. It begs the question, what does that say about the confidence
:13:03. > :13:09.Philip Hammond has in his own government's renegotiation? Not a
:13:10. > :13:13.huge amount. I agree. Philip Hammond quoted the OBR figures. He basically
:13:14. > :13:18.said, this is uncertain and it looks bad, and on we go with it. It is a
:13:19. > :13:23.very interesting situation, he said. He was for Remain and he works in a
:13:24. > :13:28.department which regards it as a disaster, whatever everyone else
:13:29. > :13:32.thinks. I have just been told we are covering the by-election. We are
:13:33. > :13:33.part of the constitution. Jo Coburn will have more
:13:34. > :13:35.Daily Politics tomorrow And I'll be back here on BBC One
:13:36. > :13:39.next Sunday at 11. Remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:40. > :14:13.it's the Sunday Politics. to signify the Africans
:14:14. > :14:40.who were here. The story of Henry VIII
:14:41. > :14:44.and his six wives