:00:37. > :00:40.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.A row has broken out between Number Ten and former
:00:44. > :00:47.Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,
:00:48. > :00:51.the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.
:00:52. > :00:53.I feel as though I'm one of the people that
:00:54. > :00:57.If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,
:00:58. > :01:08.It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult
:01:09. > :01:11.for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest
:01:12. > :01:15.Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.
:01:16. > :01:17.Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,
:01:18. > :01:19.but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance
:01:20. > :01:26.Later on the Sunday Politics: and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie
:01:27. > :01:29.Can Yorkshire and Lincolnshire look forward to a flood-free future?
:01:30. > :01:32.A year on from Storm Eva, we ask what
:01:33. > :01:48.can be done to keep homes and businesses protected.
:01:49. > :01:51.think of it as an early Christmas present from us.
:01:52. > :01:53.We guarantee you won't be disappointed.
:01:54. > :01:55.And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined
:01:56. > :01:57.by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.
:01:58. > :01:59.It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.
:02:00. > :02:06.So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some
:02:07. > :02:12.of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.
:02:13. > :02:18.But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this
:02:19. > :02:21.morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts
:02:22. > :02:24.from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning
:02:25. > :02:29.the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.
:02:30. > :02:34.Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,
:02:35. > :02:36.and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation
:02:37. > :02:43.She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning
:02:44. > :02:50.Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair
:02:51. > :02:55.She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart
:02:56. > :03:05.Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week
:03:06. > :03:09.But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary
:03:10. > :03:12.argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief
:03:13. > :03:21.She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing
:03:22. > :03:28.for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation
:03:29. > :03:33.and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".
:03:34. > :03:35.The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying
:03:36. > :03:37."If you don't like something I have said or done, please
:03:38. > :03:51.If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."
:03:52. > :03:56.Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.
:03:57. > :04:01.And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see
:04:02. > :04:03.in our film shortly, has now been formally banned
:04:04. > :04:19.So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying
:04:20. > :04:23.tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says
:04:24. > :04:26.something about British politics today, that this is the most
:04:27. > :04:30.important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are
:04:31. > :04:33.not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they
:04:34. > :04:38.don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being
:04:39. > :04:43.spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street
:04:44. > :04:46.with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet
:04:47. > :04:54.Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row
:04:55. > :04:58.over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,
:04:59. > :05:05.she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten
:05:06. > :05:14.you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the
:05:15. > :05:17.high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.
:05:18. > :05:23.You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky
:05:24. > :05:30.Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul
:05:31. > :05:34.as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.
:05:35. > :05:38.Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they
:05:39. > :05:44.are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in
:05:45. > :05:50.which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's
:05:51. > :05:55.entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is
:05:56. > :05:59.genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she
:06:00. > :06:03.chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that
:06:04. > :06:07.journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life
:06:08. > :06:12.works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the
:06:13. > :06:15.Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney
:06:16. > :06:21.and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government
:06:22. > :06:24.department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold
:06:25. > :06:28.together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the
:06:29. > :06:33.whole Government like one department. This is just the start,
:06:34. > :06:40.Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,
:06:41. > :06:44.The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most
:06:45. > :06:49.to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if
:06:50. > :06:54.it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was
:06:55. > :07:00.split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used
:07:01. > :07:05.to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down
:07:06. > :07:08.the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert
:07:09. > :07:13.the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a
:07:14. > :07:16.self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it
:07:17. > :07:22.comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do
:07:23. > :07:28.you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own
:07:29. > :07:31.wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is
:07:32. > :07:35.that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen
:07:36. > :07:41.polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,
:07:42. > :07:46.a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any
:07:47. > :07:48.money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself
:07:49. > :07:56.comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted
:07:57. > :08:00.with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most
:08:01. > :08:05.exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that
:08:06. > :08:10.British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain
:08:11. > :08:18.lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at
:08:19. > :08:21.being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split
:08:22. > :08:24.between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that
:08:25. > :08:30.sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the
:08:31. > :08:35.1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.
:08:36. > :08:39.The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of
:08:40. > :08:44.pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.
:08:45. > :08:46.So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price
:08:47. > :08:49.of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.
:08:50. > :08:52.And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire
:08:53. > :08:54.the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say
:08:55. > :08:56.about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead
:08:57. > :08:58.of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,
:08:59. > :09:00.it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.
:09:01. > :09:10.While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated
:09:11. > :09:12.Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting
:09:13. > :09:15.on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.
:09:16. > :09:17.Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government
:09:18. > :09:19.basically got its way, but it did provide a platform
:09:20. > :09:24.for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,
:09:25. > :09:33.We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level
:09:34. > :09:36.of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners
:09:37. > :09:39.that want to thwart the will of the people,
:09:40. > :09:44.go back on it and that we don't accept the result.
:09:45. > :09:49.I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people
:09:50. > :09:52.It's not good enough that these things are dragged
:09:53. > :09:54.out of the Government by opposition day motions.
:09:55. > :09:57.I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking
:09:58. > :10:02.Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents
:10:03. > :10:10.I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head
:10:11. > :10:13.above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,
:10:14. > :10:15.you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.
:10:16. > :10:18.I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank
:10:19. > :10:20.you for what you are doing, party members around
:10:21. > :10:23.the country saying thank you for what you are doing
:10:24. > :10:27.and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.
:10:28. > :10:29.I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,
:10:30. > :10:31.you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak
:10:32. > :10:34.opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised
:10:35. > :10:41.on before we embark on such a huge issue.
:10:42. > :10:44.Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's
:10:45. > :10:48.side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that
:10:49. > :10:50.if you don't stand up for what you believe in,
:10:51. > :10:56.I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.
:10:57. > :10:59.That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local
:11:00. > :11:01.party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses
:11:02. > :11:06.Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association
:11:07. > :11:09.she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support
:11:10. > :11:12.the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that
:11:13. > :11:15.and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people
:11:16. > :11:16.who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government
:11:17. > :11:20.The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP
:11:21. > :11:22.and we want to see a Conservative government being
:11:23. > :11:30.I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get
:11:31. > :11:33.on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,
:11:34. > :11:37.Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see
:11:38. > :11:39.how her stance is going down with the voters.
:11:40. > :11:41.If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does
:11:42. > :11:46.Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,
:11:47. > :11:49.especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU
:11:50. > :11:52.so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.
:11:53. > :11:54.She should stick for what she believes in,
:11:55. > :11:56.but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...
:11:57. > :12:13.She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted
:12:14. > :12:16.to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,
:12:17. > :12:17.depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.
:12:18. > :12:22.Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street
:12:23. > :12:24.this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.
:12:25. > :12:33.Although now we know not everyone is invited.
:12:34. > :12:39.And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday
:12:40. > :12:41.was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted
:12:42. > :12:44.against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end
:12:45. > :12:47.of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.
:12:48. > :12:53.Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David
:12:54. > :12:58.Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new
:12:59. > :13:02.leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to
:13:03. > :13:09.deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't
:13:10. > :13:14.speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious
:13:15. > :13:19.interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but
:13:20. > :13:23.somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman
:13:24. > :13:26.which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and
:13:27. > :13:32.said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger
:13:33. > :13:37.ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only
:13:38. > :13:40.serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a
:13:41. > :13:43.difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,
:13:44. > :13:49.your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more
:13:50. > :13:55.in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it
:13:56. > :13:58.not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not
:13:59. > :14:02.Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,
:14:03. > :14:05.she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting
:14:06. > :14:09.out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for
:14:10. > :14:13.being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it
:14:14. > :14:18.wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the
:14:19. > :14:22.national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid
:14:23. > :14:27.throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and
:14:28. > :14:30.my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party
:14:31. > :14:35.throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion
:14:36. > :14:40.on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to
:14:41. > :14:44.Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my
:14:45. > :14:48.reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national
:14:49. > :14:56.interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of
:14:57. > :15:00.course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you
:15:01. > :15:07.think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it
:15:08. > :15:11.40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you
:15:12. > :15:14.have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,
:15:15. > :15:18.they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have
:15:19. > :15:29.been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.
:15:30. > :15:37.That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are
:15:38. > :15:43.living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and
:15:44. > :15:47.the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's
:15:48. > :15:51.trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we
:15:52. > :15:55.need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a
:15:56. > :16:00.leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis
:16:01. > :16:03.upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the
:16:04. > :16:07.others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than
:16:08. > :16:14.any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.
:16:15. > :16:18.What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our
:16:19. > :16:28.children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need
:16:29. > :16:34.Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of
:16:35. > :16:38.negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to
:16:39. > :16:41.run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted
:16:42. > :16:47.in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister
:16:48. > :16:52.sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that
:16:53. > :16:56.your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons
:16:57. > :17:00.think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum
:17:01. > :17:05.campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were
:17:06. > :17:11.completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.
:17:12. > :17:16.Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I
:17:17. > :17:19.have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so
:17:20. > :17:25.just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a
:17:26. > :17:29.minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan
:17:30. > :17:33.Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with
:17:34. > :17:37.that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were
:17:38. > :17:43.going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and
:17:44. > :17:51.tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How
:17:52. > :17:58.long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will
:17:59. > :18:05.survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a
:18:06. > :18:10.heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you
:18:11. > :18:18.think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has
:18:19. > :18:21.always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in
:18:22. > :18:28.a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does
:18:29. > :18:32.he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to
:18:33. > :18:36.forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there
:18:37. > :18:45.will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten
:18:46. > :18:48.years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of
:18:49. > :18:52.his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward
:18:53. > :18:57.is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which
:18:58. > :19:01.all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet
:19:02. > :19:09.papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get
:19:10. > :19:13.down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry
:19:14. > :19:20.to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film
:19:21. > :19:27.that a number of constituency members in those areas which are
:19:28. > :19:33.strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was
:19:34. > :19:37.Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.
:19:38. > :19:42.What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects
:19:43. > :19:49.their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very
:19:50. > :19:57.grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because
:19:58. > :20:02.you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great
:20:03. > :20:06.fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on
:20:07. > :20:10.everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've
:20:11. > :20:14.always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying
:20:15. > :20:21.what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and
:20:22. > :20:25.then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised
:20:26. > :20:30.if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the
:20:31. > :20:37.policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say
:20:38. > :20:43.you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing
:20:44. > :20:47.Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't
:20:48. > :20:51.been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my
:20:52. > :20:57.colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that
:20:58. > :21:04.haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have
:21:05. > :21:08.been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well
:21:09. > :21:12.with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's
:21:13. > :21:18.much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street
:21:19. > :21:23.has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm
:21:24. > :21:27.glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what
:21:28. > :21:32.they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm
:21:33. > :21:37.not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still
:21:38. > :21:49.have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.
:21:50. > :21:56.That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really
:21:57. > :22:02.grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will
:22:03. > :22:05.have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument
:22:06. > :22:13.about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to
:22:14. > :22:21.keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be
:22:22. > :22:26.deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's
:22:27. > :22:31.relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this
:22:32. > :22:36.Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you
:22:37. > :22:37.for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever
:22:38. > :22:41.criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn
:22:42. > :22:43.against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,
:22:44. > :22:46.but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,
:22:47. > :22:48.or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result
:22:49. > :22:51.for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping
:22:52. > :22:54.for an early Christmas present at this week's
:22:55. > :22:56.contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,
:22:57. > :23:04.a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,
:23:05. > :23:07.there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second
:23:08. > :23:11.in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better
:23:12. > :23:14.performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,
:23:15. > :23:17.where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting
:23:18. > :23:20.fewer voters than the reported number of local
:23:21. > :23:23.Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this
:23:24. > :23:29.week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major
:23:30. > :23:33.issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity
:23:34. > :23:45.is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers
:23:46. > :23:49.were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote
:23:50. > :23:58.against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU
:23:59. > :24:00.by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've
:24:01. > :24:03.spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs
:24:04. > :24:06.the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,
:24:07. > :24:09.or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,
:24:10. > :24:13.eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,
:24:14. > :24:15.a national poll released on Friday put Labour
:24:16. > :24:17.at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy
:24:18. > :24:24.for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories
:24:25. > :24:26.under his leadership, including a by-election win
:24:27. > :24:29.in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a
:24:30. > :24:35.Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack
:24:36. > :24:39.of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having
:24:40. > :24:41.failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,
:24:42. > :24:52.what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played
:24:53. > :24:57.down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour
:24:58. > :25:01.Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic
:25:02. > :25:04.party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current
:25:05. > :25:09.leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in
:25:10. > :25:13.the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.
:25:14. > :25:15.And we're joined now by the former mayor
:25:16. > :25:17.of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow
:25:18. > :25:25.Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from
:25:26. > :25:30.second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its
:25:31. > :25:36.deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in
:25:37. > :25:45.this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters
:25:46. > :25:51.switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings
:25:52. > :25:57.that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is
:25:58. > :26:01.like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the
:26:02. > :26:10.Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win
:26:11. > :26:14.tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with
:26:15. > :26:20.the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,
:26:21. > :26:24.but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the
:26:25. > :26:28.national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells
:26:29. > :26:32.going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I
:26:33. > :26:37.think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a
:26:38. > :26:41.plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are
:26:42. > :26:46.going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard
:26:47. > :26:53.Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.
:26:54. > :26:58.When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.
:26:59. > :27:05.John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a
:27:06. > :27:09.massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory
:27:10. > :27:15.governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a
:27:16. > :27:19.disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if
:27:20. > :27:24.Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the
:27:25. > :27:29.EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year
:27:30. > :27:34.and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we
:27:35. > :27:40.are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic
:27:41. > :27:43.disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew
:27:44. > :27:48.the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why
:27:49. > :27:53.are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points
:27:54. > :27:58.behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating
:27:59. > :28:04.went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an
:28:05. > :28:08.election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not
:28:09. > :28:13.grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it
:28:14. > :28:17.will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic
:28:18. > :28:23.alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible
:28:24. > :28:28.economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand
:28:29. > :28:31.basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a
:28:32. > :28:39.commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It
:28:40. > :28:42.is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,
:28:43. > :28:48.particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back
:28:49. > :28:52.and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative
:28:53. > :28:56.manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to
:28:57. > :29:00.the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the
:29:01. > :29:06.broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an
:29:07. > :29:11.MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not
:29:12. > :29:15.going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a
:29:16. > :29:18.couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from
:29:19. > :29:25.Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And
:29:26. > :29:30.I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part
:29:31. > :29:37.of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted
:29:38. > :29:41.to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you
:29:42. > :29:46.don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other
:29:47. > :29:53.27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,
:29:54. > :29:55.why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't
:29:56. > :30:07.think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to
:30:08. > :30:11.get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps
:30:12. > :30:16.millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say
:30:17. > :30:21.we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all
:30:22. > :30:25.Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would
:30:26. > :30:29.suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories
:30:30. > :30:35.are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a
:30:36. > :30:39.bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut
:30:40. > :30:44.through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us
:30:45. > :30:49.that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a
:30:50. > :30:54.33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of
:30:55. > :30:58.the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to
:30:59. > :31:05.make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and
:31:06. > :31:12.not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or
:31:13. > :31:21.whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox
:31:22. > :31:26.fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18
:31:27. > :31:32.months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.
:31:33. > :31:35.The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You
:31:36. > :31:39.weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you
:31:40. > :31:42.have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting
:31:43. > :31:47.rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of
:31:48. > :31:51.policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to
:31:52. > :31:57.govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The
:31:58. > :32:01.idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like
:32:02. > :32:06.takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,
:32:07. > :32:11.yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this
:32:12. > :32:18.summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of
:32:19. > :32:22.the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I
:32:23. > :32:29.want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have
:32:30. > :32:33.got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio
:32:34. > :32:38.at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more
:32:39. > :32:42.money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums
:32:43. > :32:48.add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.
:32:49. > :32:53.They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour
:32:54. > :33:01.Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..
:33:02. > :33:05.Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid
:33:06. > :33:12.off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace
:33:13. > :33:16.compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is
:33:17. > :33:21.decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a
:33:22. > :33:24.society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just
:33:25. > :33:27.the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to
:33:28. > :33:30.contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public
:33:31. > :33:35.are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in
:33:36. > :33:40.the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out
:33:41. > :33:45.clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these
:33:46. > :33:54.things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money
:33:55. > :34:00.through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150
:34:01. > :34:06.billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier
:34:07. > :34:10.estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR
:34:11. > :34:15.programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can
:34:16. > :34:22.say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we
:34:23. > :34:26.will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just
:34:27. > :34:31.checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do
:34:32. > :34:35.you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn
:34:36. > :34:40.round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get
:34:41. > :34:43.worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we
:34:44. > :34:49.would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will
:34:50. > :34:54.knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill
:34:55. > :34:57.Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going
:34:58. > :35:00.to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise
:35:01. > :35:06.they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the
:35:07. > :35:11.Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans
:35:12. > :35:17.that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in
:35:18. > :35:21.12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will
:35:22. > :35:28.hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for
:35:29. > :35:33.the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do
:35:34. > :35:37.they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to
:35:38. > :35:43.bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your
:35:44. > :35:48.party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we
:35:49. > :35:52.have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the
:35:53. > :35:56.opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good
:35:57. > :35:59.enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the
:36:00. > :36:04.Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and
:36:05. > :36:08.on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending
:36:09. > :36:11.national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian
:36:12. > :36:17.intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now
:36:18. > :36:21.in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be
:36:22. > :36:25.able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are
:36:26. > :36:29.heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the
:36:30. > :36:34.war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the
:36:35. > :36:37.last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the
:36:38. > :36:42.way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we
:36:43. > :36:46.used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is
:36:47. > :36:49.in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually
:36:50. > :36:54.getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.
:36:55. > :36:58.Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.
:36:59. > :37:00.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:01. > :37:03.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:04. > :37:06.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking
:37:07. > :37:08.about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying
:37:09. > :37:10.off message, again, and the protestors attempting
:37:11. > :37:21.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:37:22. > :37:22.Hello, you're watching the Sunday Politics
:37:23. > :37:27.Can Yorkshire look forward to a flood-free future?
:37:28. > :37:31.A year after Storm Eva, we ask, is a study being done to keep
:37:32. > :37:37.On Monday the 21st of November, we had a flood warning again,
:37:38. > :37:49.I'm not going to lie, I sat on my bed, crying.
:37:50. > :37:51.And what does the Sleaford by-election mean for Labour?
:37:52. > :37:54.A Conservative win pushes them into fourth place behind
:37:55. > :37:58.I'm joined in the studio by the Labour MP Mary Creagh
:37:59. > :38:05.and Julian Sturdy, the Conservative MP for York Outer.
:38:06. > :38:09.Christmas will bring some painful reminders to householders
:38:10. > :38:13.Its almost a year since Storm Eva brought flood water to
:38:14. > :38:16.9000 homes and businesses across the region,
:38:17. > :38:22.In the days following the Government announced
:38:23. > :38:28.And what more can be done to protect people and property
:38:29. > :38:40.Across Yorkshire, 6000 homes and businesses were affected.
:38:41. > :38:44.Calderdale was the worst hit, with 2000 homes flooded
:38:45. > :38:49.You can't see it now, now it's all rendered...
:38:50. > :38:51.Pam in Todmorden spent seven months living upstairs
:38:52. > :38:55.while recovery and flood-proofing work was carried out.
:38:56. > :38:59.We got the ?5,000 grant from the council, which was brilliant,
:39:00. > :39:05.We also got another ?1000 top up from the
:39:06. > :39:09.Country Foundation For Calderdale.
:39:10. > :39:12.We got extra money from those as well, so, yeah, we have had
:39:13. > :39:17.But we've also had to pay out quite a lot of money ourselves.
:39:18. > :39:20.The grant Pam got was to help protect her home from flooding,
:39:21. > :39:25.like raising sockets and aceramic floor.
:39:26. > :39:27.But Sarah, who was also flooded, says the emotional impact also
:39:28. > :39:33.On Monday the 21st of November, we had a flood warning again.
:39:34. > :39:38.And I'm not going to lie, I was sat on my bed, crying.
:39:39. > :39:40.Because it was just too much to deal with.
:39:41. > :39:42.And that's the thing that people don't see.
:39:43. > :39:45.People from outside who haven't actually been flooded themselves,
:39:46. > :39:50.They see the clean-up, they see the new houses,
:39:51. > :39:54.You know, what you're doing to make it better.
:39:55. > :39:56.But what they can't see is how people's health,
:39:57. > :40:01.In North Yorkshire, Tadcaster Bridge partially collapsed,
:40:02. > :40:06.11 months on, the only road bridge through the town
:40:07. > :40:10.The flooding had a massive impact on those whose homes
:40:11. > :40:15.Some businesses say they've lost thousands in trade.
:40:16. > :40:18.And to make matters worse, some of them tell us
:40:19. > :40:24.You can see the mark on the wall, that's where the water came into.
:40:25. > :40:27.We were, in one sense, fortunate, in the sense that the building
:40:28. > :40:30.flooded just about 10, 11 days after our insurance policy
:40:31. > :40:34.So, fortunately, we had insurance cover, which has
:40:35. > :40:37.paid out and allowed us to refurbish the building.
:40:38. > :40:40.The difficulty we now have is that our insurance policy
:40:41. > :40:43.expires next Friday, and our insurers have told us
:40:44. > :40:50.from the British Insurance Brokers Association will help.
:40:51. > :40:52.Certainly, if this building had to close, there's no other
:40:53. > :40:58.There would be potentially no medical practice
:40:59. > :41:01.The Government has spent ?24 million in the region
:41:02. > :41:07.It also plans to invest 400 million in flood defence schemes
:41:08. > :41:13.And in the 2016 budget, it announced an extra 115 million
:41:14. > :41:27.The Government support, UK-wide, have invested a lot,
:41:28. > :41:29.as we've seen in York, which is fantastic to see.
:41:30. > :41:33.They've had a massive investment, and a much-needed investment.
:41:34. > :41:36.My major concern is for the small towns and villages.
:41:37. > :41:39.I do think, unfortunately, Tadcaster may be cast as that
:41:40. > :41:43.And I really do hope that there is some Government
:41:44. > :41:47.investment into these areas, and we do see it as a major problem.
:41:48. > :41:50.From Todmorden to Tadcaster, people across Yorkshire
:41:51. > :41:53.will be keeping a close eye on the weather this winter,
:41:54. > :42:10.Julian Sturdy, can you understand why many people are unhappy, they
:42:11. > :42:15.believe not enough is being done by the Government to protect homes and
:42:16. > :42:20.businesses in flood-hit areas? I do understand. I think there's a
:42:21. > :42:23.lot of concern at there, and you can really imagine what it is like to
:42:24. > :42:28.have your property flooded unless you have gone through it. A
:42:29. > :42:32.horrendous experience for all those concerned. There will be a lot
:42:33. > :42:36.worried people through this winter. The Comet has invested a lot more
:42:37. > :42:42.money into capital projects, we talked about the five year plan. I
:42:43. > :42:47.can talk about york in the specific, where we spoke about 15 million
:42:48. > :42:52.going into york, and we have the Foss barrier. As we said in the
:42:53. > :42:56.report, we have to make sure this money goes right the way through to
:42:57. > :43:01.smaller amenities as well. Mary Creagh, the Government tells us
:43:02. > :43:06.the spending record on flood defences is enough?
:43:07. > :43:12.The record on flood spending is a roller-coaster. They cut their
:43:13. > :43:18.funding in 2013, put it back in 2014, then cut it again in 2015. It
:43:19. > :43:22.seems to be politically motivated, rather than planning for the long
:43:23. > :43:27.term. I don't think we need a five-year plan for flooding, and
:43:28. > :43:30.think we need a 20-a year plan. We need to speak to coastal
:43:31. > :43:36.communities, areas that are building houses, about what a one metre rise
:43:37. > :43:43.in flood levels will mean for those places. We need to hear more from
:43:44. > :43:45.the Government about what that money they have announced for
:43:46. > :43:52.infrastructure investment is going to be spent on. What we don't want
:43:53. > :43:56.to see is a lot of the money being spent on road and rail in the south
:43:57. > :44:01.of England quietly, and be poor missing out.
:44:02. > :44:05.We heard there from the GP and Tadcaster, people are missing out on
:44:06. > :44:09.flood insurance. There was a Jeep -- scheme lots, but many are telling us
:44:10. > :44:16.that they can't get insured. The flood Rhys is working well, but
:44:17. > :44:22.I think we have to review that now. -- Flood Re system is working well.
:44:23. > :44:26.It is a good start, but it doesn't cover businesses. It also doesn't
:44:27. > :44:31.cover long leaseholders as well. We have had problems where bats and
:44:32. > :44:37.buildings on long leases can't get access to Flood Re. A good start,
:44:38. > :44:41.but we have to review it and see if we can do more.
:44:42. > :44:46.When you look at river levels last Christmas, they were the highest in
:44:47. > :44:51.most of our lifetimes. Do we have to accept we can't protect everywhere?
:44:52. > :44:57.What we have to accept is that what climate is changing, and these,
:44:58. > :45:02.thankfully, very rare events are going to become more frequent. We
:45:03. > :45:05.have to plan for that as a country. I'm grateful that in Wakefield we
:45:06. > :45:11.got ?50 million for flood defences after the 2007 floods. It was the
:45:12. > :45:17.biggest civil emergency since World War II. When the big one comes, it
:45:18. > :45:21.is a very, very big problem. We had a reservoir about to collapse at
:45:22. > :45:25.that point, about to take out the M1. These are serious problems. You
:45:26. > :45:32.cannot have an emergency response if you do not have a motorway. We to
:45:33. > :45:35.make sure transport, telecoms, infrastructure are protected, as
:45:36. > :45:40.well as homes, as well as insurance for business. There is a lot to do.
:45:41. > :45:43.We don't want a white Christmas this year, we want a dry Christmas.
:45:44. > :45:45.The region has a new MP and a new MEP.
:45:46. > :45:48.With that and the week's other political news in
:45:49. > :45:52.Conservative Caroline Johnson is the new MP for
:45:53. > :45:56.Despite a victory which saw Ukip second and the Liberal Democrats
:45:57. > :45:59.push Labour into fourth place, the new MP was rushed
:46:00. > :46:03.Would you like to say anything about your election?
:46:04. > :46:11.Another new kid on the block - in Europe, at least -
:46:12. > :46:15.The former Conservative Leeds councillor is now the MEP
:46:16. > :46:18.for Yorkshire and the Humber, a seat left vacant
:46:19. > :46:22.when Timothy Kirkhope was elevated to the Lords.
:46:23. > :46:26.Home Affairs Select Committee chair and West Yorkshire MP Yvette Cooper
:46:27. > :46:29.announced a national inquiry into immigration.
:46:30. > :46:31.She says the referendum results and opinion polls show
:46:32. > :46:39.most people want change, but not what kind of change they want.
:46:40. > :46:42.And parents in the north of England were told they need to be pushier
:46:43. > :46:44.by the Children's Commissioner for England, Anne Longfield.
:46:45. > :46:55.She's investigating the North/South divide and educational success.
:46:56. > :47:02.So, Mary Creagh, Labour pushed into fourth place in Sleaford and North
:47:03. > :47:05.Hykeham, behind the Lib Dems. Surely this now ratchet up the pressure on
:47:06. > :47:10.Jeremy Corbyn after such a dismal performance?
:47:11. > :47:15.To be clear, this is not the result any of us wanted to see. But just
:47:16. > :47:18.before Christmas, 37 present turnouts, people in that area
:47:19. > :47:25.perhaps had other things on their mind.
:47:26. > :47:29.That is a common election excuse. Opposition parties should be gaining
:47:30. > :47:34.votes, not losing them? I agree, but lets not forget where
:47:35. > :47:40.this by-election was cold, the MP said he could no longer except the
:47:41. > :47:45.label of being a Tory. He wanted to leave, he was so concerned about the
:47:46. > :47:49.way, the direction the Government was travelling in around the
:47:50. > :47:56.decisions to leave the EU. There is anxiety in the Conservative Party,
:47:57. > :48:00.we have a long way to go on this Leave/Remain debate. And what sort
:48:01. > :48:05.of Brexit the Government is proposing. We want a Brexit that
:48:06. > :48:10.protects homes and jobs and does make prices go up. I thread that is
:48:11. > :48:14.not what we as seen. There is a Brexit black hole of the doings
:48:15. > :48:20.million pounds, and we want to know what the plan is for leaving.
:48:21. > :48:24.The Lib Dem vote was up in the by-election, they are building up a
:48:25. > :48:29.head of steam as a Brexit protest party. Do you worry they could be
:48:30. > :48:33.snapping at your heels soon? I don't. The by-election result was
:48:34. > :48:37.great for the Conservative Party, it shows that the Prime Minister is on
:48:38. > :48:43.track. There is great trust and belief in what she's doing. Let's
:48:44. > :48:46.not forget, the Lib Dems did come third in this by-election, Adam
:48:47. > :48:50.think it really gives traction... Their share of the vote was up, the
:48:51. > :48:57.only Westminster party where that happened.
:48:58. > :49:00.But this sitting Government won the seat very convincingly, with a large
:49:01. > :49:05.majority. That doesn't usually happen with any colour of Government
:49:06. > :49:11.when they're and power. Shippers Labour MPs who voted
:49:12. > :49:16.against the Government's timetable for triggering Article 50, it should
:49:17. > :49:22.be now look at the unconscious is? And thinking of people who are MPs
:49:23. > :49:29.in areas where it people voted Leave. I've been out vulnerable?
:49:30. > :49:33.All they did was reject a Government amendment to one of our emotions.
:49:34. > :49:37.This does not hide the Government's Hansen anyway. The Government should
:49:38. > :49:42.be looking at what's the right thing for our country. Rather than setting
:49:43. > :49:47.out of timetables to appease the Ukip part of the Tory party.
:49:48. > :49:50.We don't have time to go into Brexit today, we'll come back another time.
:49:51. > :49:52.The Casey review was billed as a report on boosting opportunity
:49:53. > :49:54.and integration in our most isolated and deprived communities.
:49:55. > :49:57.It's author, Dame Louise Casey, says she found segregation and social
:49:58. > :50:00.exclusion at worrying levels, and nowhere more so than in some
:50:01. > :50:02.of Yorkshire towns and cities she visited for her research.
:50:03. > :50:07.Response has been polarised - Len tingle's been to meet some
:50:08. > :50:12.The pace of the population change in some areas of the country,
:50:13. > :50:14.in particular, partly because of immigration,
:50:15. > :50:17.partly because of other issues, has just been too much.
:50:18. > :50:20.Dame Lousie Casey, researched and wrote this report.
:50:21. > :50:22.Former investigator of grooming in Rotherham.
:50:23. > :50:26.Highlights community isolation and lack of English.
:50:27. > :50:29.Some schools that were less than 5% non-UK nationals
:50:30. > :50:36.You've got areas of the country, for example in places like Bradford,
:50:37. > :50:41.Birmingham and Burnley, where now we have wards in local
:50:42. > :50:48.authority areas that are 75%, 95% either Muslim only
:50:49. > :50:50.or Pakistani heritage or Bangladeshi heritage.
:50:51. > :50:54.That type of high concentration in schools and in residential areas
:50:55. > :50:59.I have made some really good recommendations and we need
:51:00. > :51:01.to be implimenting them, and the Government need
:51:02. > :51:05.And communities need to take the lead on lots of the work.
:51:06. > :51:07.Equally, there's quite a bit missing.
:51:08. > :51:09.I think we've missed some opportunities in this report.
:51:10. > :51:14.For her, not enough emphasis on the role of economic
:51:15. > :51:19.I personally feel that this report deflects from the real issues,
:51:20. > :51:23.and that is the Government's failure, systematic failure,
:51:24. > :51:25.over the last decade, on immigration, on social
:51:26. > :51:32.And that the austerity measures that have been put in place are only
:51:33. > :51:37.We're mixing, and we're getting to know the communities.
:51:38. > :51:40.And that's not just white children, it's people of other
:51:41. > :51:45.Sheena Ali, teacher at the 85% Asian Bradford Junior school.
:51:46. > :51:47.Children need to meet and play together.
:51:48. > :51:49.It's making sure that children are understanding
:51:50. > :51:55.that there are a wider aspect of religion and races out there,
:51:56. > :52:00.Looking at our similarities, understanding our similarities
:52:01. > :52:03.and the differences and respecting everybody.
:52:04. > :52:05.When people migrate to another country, they often
:52:06. > :52:11.British expats go to Spain, they live in communities in Spain.
:52:12. > :52:12.Steve Winston, UK parliamentary candidate.
:52:13. > :52:16.Better-spoken English, less multiculturalism,
:52:17. > :52:25.Interestingly, in Spain, all the documentation is in Spanish.
:52:26. > :52:31.Over here in the UK, we spent ?59-60,000 per day
:52:32. > :52:38.And things like that, if we encourage more
:52:39. > :52:42.use of the language, make all of our documentation in English,
:52:43. > :52:47.make it a prerequisite of benefit claiming, we can actually
:52:48. > :52:50.make integration happen, rather than just talking
:52:51. > :52:58.We need to have a positive solution for this, and that's one of them.
:52:59. > :53:01.We think this report unfairly stigmatises black and ethnic
:53:02. > :53:04.minorities in relation to their failure to integrate.
:53:05. > :53:10.Confusion over how much white community helps
:53:11. > :53:16.What this report fails to do is acknowledge that this is a joint
:53:17. > :53:18.responsibility between both white communities and
:53:19. > :53:24.But let me also make this other point, this report does not
:53:25. > :53:26.actually acknowledge that white communities do actually
:53:27. > :53:33.There are a number of white communities that send their children
:53:34. > :53:40.And in addition to that, there's also the issue of white flight,
:53:41. > :53:42.where white communities are abandoning inner-city,
:53:43. > :53:48.Joining us now is Syima Aslam, the artistic director
:53:49. > :54:01.He has strong views on this subject. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Why
:54:02. > :54:06.are we saw talking about a lack of integration entities like Bradford?
:54:07. > :54:12.I think it's an easy scapegoat. In the current let go climate, in the
:54:13. > :54:18.global climate, we are looking for reasons why there had been certain
:54:19. > :54:21.failures. I think, post-Brexit, post-trompe, possibly post
:54:22. > :54:27.capitalism, we need reasons as to why certain things are happening.
:54:28. > :54:31.And cities like Bradford, cities like Birmingham, cities like
:54:32. > :54:33.Leicester and Luton weather had been high-level server immigration,
:54:34. > :54:39.action provide good scapegoats. What we don't look at is that these are
:54:40. > :54:44.manufacturing towns where people moved in because the required for
:54:45. > :54:47.Labour. And now we are in a situation where those people are not
:54:48. > :54:54.required for those jobs. What we need to be looking at is, if we take
:54:55. > :54:57.away the ethnicity, this is about working as communities. And the
:54:58. > :55:00.skills that they require to be economically engaged and socially
:55:01. > :55:06.mobile. Julian Sturdy, the report talks
:55:07. > :55:10.about the need to promote Britishness. How do you do that,
:55:11. > :55:17.what is Britishness? Gap to look at British values. Rule
:55:18. > :55:20.of law is one. It's about bringing communities together...
:55:21. > :55:23.Check-in teak masala might be another!
:55:24. > :55:31.There is a lot of ways to look at it. We need to look at it area by
:55:32. > :55:34.area. Each community will have different views and different
:55:35. > :55:40.thoughts on the KC review. It is right to the Government passes on
:55:41. > :55:45.this thought and listens to what other communities have to say about
:55:46. > :55:51.it. It will come back in April 2017 with their view on the findings. I
:55:52. > :55:55.think that is right. I think it's a good report, and broadly welcomed.
:55:56. > :56:02.So it's now a matter of how the Government it. It is interesting
:56:03. > :56:06.that Louise Casey says, in the past, be buggy reluctant to talk about
:56:07. > :56:09.this issue, for fear of being branded racist.
:56:10. > :56:12.Is that a problem? Effing she's writes, and that allows
:56:13. > :56:18.the peddlers of hate on either side, whether that is Islamic State, or
:56:19. > :56:24.the far right, BNP racists, to move in and fill that vacuum. I want to
:56:25. > :56:27.come back to what Syima said. When a child starts at school, they do know
:56:28. > :56:31.what colour their friends and teachers are, they see everyone the
:56:32. > :56:36.same. Somehow these divisions grow up as we grow older. We had a report
:56:37. > :56:39.in international education standards showing that the whole of the UK as
:56:40. > :56:45.one behind, critically in the north of England. We had a report saying
:56:46. > :56:50.one in five people living in poverty is actually working. This is about
:56:51. > :56:54.the quality of education in our towns and cities, this is but the
:56:55. > :56:58.jobs that people have, and the areas in which people can afford to live.
:56:59. > :57:06.Because people are all clustered in areas cheap housing, it has always
:57:07. > :57:10.been the case that the poorer and is immigrants... It is about social
:57:11. > :57:14.mobility. Casey found that there was a high
:57:15. > :57:18.proportion of Muslim women in the Bradford that don't speak English.
:57:19. > :57:21.Is that acceptable? I think it's important that
:57:22. > :57:26.everybody speaks English. Having said that, think what we need to
:57:27. > :57:30.move away from is that, as a parent doesn't speak English, their
:57:31. > :57:36.children will be alerted. My mother doesn't speak English, it was never
:57:37. > :57:40.a barrier for me. -- be a letter it. The problem is, if you don't
:57:41. > :57:45.speaking this, there will be a lot of services close off to you. My
:57:46. > :57:49.mother's life would have been a lot richer if she had been able to speak
:57:50. > :57:54.English. I think what needs to happen is that we need the funding
:57:55. > :57:58.to allow this to happen. Should the NHS and public services
:57:59. > :58:03.paid for translation services? Should leaflets we written in other
:58:04. > :58:08.languages other than English? Is that acceptable?
:58:09. > :58:11.Rationally, I think we would be better off putting that money into
:58:12. > :58:16.making sure people actually speak English. But that is a personal
:58:17. > :58:20.opinion. I think that would be a far more useful thing. I think the Casey
:58:21. > :58:25.report makes a lot of good points, and they must not be overlooked. The
:58:26. > :58:30.report comes from a particular place in terms of the Prevent strategy
:58:31. > :58:34.that has been handing in certain communities. It makes a lot of good
:58:35. > :58:38.points, and there are people who had been marginalised and are unable to
:58:39. > :58:44.access services they need to access because of a lack of English.
:58:45. > :58:47.That's a problem, no doubt. It does make women uniquely vulnerable,
:58:48. > :58:52.because women who are often brought in as brides are reliant on their
:58:53. > :58:57.husbands for the immigrant status. In some cases, they can be victims
:58:58. > :58:59.of domestic violence, and then not know how to access services when
:59:00. > :59:04.those crimes are committed against those crimes are committed against
:59:05. > :59:10.them or their children. They do think it's important that women are
:59:11. > :59:15.empowered to lead full, rich, and is economically important lives.
:59:16. > :59:20.Funding for all those language services has been cut from a council
:59:21. > :59:23.sent as he colleges. We need to make sure women are empowered to go out
:59:24. > :59:27.and learn and have the services to go to.
:59:28. > :59:33.The Secretary of State, an assessment of the house this week,
:59:34. > :59:37.said there would be money going into language services, and think it's
:59:38. > :59:41.important. I agree, the key thing here is education. If we're talking
:59:42. > :59:49.about social mobility, it doesn't matter about what community
:59:50. > :59:52.education, it is going to be absolutely...
:59:53. > :59:57.We're running out of time, well big cities become more or less
:59:58. > :00:01.segregated? Think the vessel I run it, the
:00:02. > :00:07.Bradford Literature Festival, is a sign that we are becoming less
:00:08. > :00:10.segregated. It's about where people can afford to live.
:00:11. > :00:14.It's about people falling in love and getting married on interracial
:00:15. > :00:17.marriages... A fascinating subject,
:00:18. > :00:29.Now, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was rebuked
:00:30. > :00:32.by Downing Street this week - yes, again - after the Guardian
:00:33. > :00:35.revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia of being among countries engaged
:00:36. > :00:37.in fighting "proxy wars" in the Middle East, breaking
:00:38. > :00:39.the Foreign Office's convention of not criticising a key UK ally
:00:40. > :00:42.in the region and annoying the prime minister who'd just returned
:00:43. > :00:49.The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was asked about it
:00:50. > :00:57.And let's be very clear about this, the way some of his remarks
:00:58. > :00:59.were reported seemed to imply we didn't support the right
:01:00. > :01:02.of Saudi Arabia to defend itself, and it is being attacked by Houthi
:01:03. > :01:04.terrorists from over the border with Yemen,
:01:05. > :01:07.didn't support what Saudi is doing in leading the campaign to restore
:01:08. > :01:15.Some of the reporting led people to think that, and that is all...
:01:16. > :01:17.This was simply the way it was reported and interpreted.
:01:18. > :01:19.The way it was interpreted left people with the impression
:01:20. > :01:28.that we didn't support Saudi Arabia and we do.
:01:29. > :01:31.Well, Mr Johnson has been in the Saudi capital
:01:32. > :01:32.Riyadh this morning, so how's he been received?
:01:33. > :01:34.Our security correspondent Frank Gardner is in neighbouring
:01:35. > :01:41.Bahrain, where Mr Johnson was earlier in the weekend.
:01:42. > :01:47.It has probably been a long time since there has been such interest
:01:48. > :01:51.in a British Foreign Secretary visiting the gulf region. What are
:01:52. > :01:58.the political elites there making of it all? Well, they think to be
:01:59. > :02:02.honest it is a bit of a storm in a tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall
:02:03. > :02:07.story, I think a lot of people I have spoken to tend to believe that
:02:08. > :02:11.Number Ten have made such a fuss about this, that it has created a
:02:12. > :02:16.story in itself. That said, though, I think that behind the scenes there
:02:17. > :02:21.was a certain amount of damage limitation taking place between
:02:22. > :02:25.London and Riyadh, a bit of smoothing of feathers and reassuring
:02:26. > :02:29.and the Stade Saudis tell me they are reassured the message they are
:02:30. > :02:34.taking is. Coming from Number Ten and they are not taking Boris
:02:35. > :02:38.Johnson's comments to heart. He is in the dam, he has met the king, I
:02:39. > :02:45.tweet add picture of that just a few minutes ago. He has been meeting
:02:46. > :02:48.Crown Prince, and he is now meeting the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis
:02:49. > :02:52.got an opportunity to brief him according to their vision of the
:02:53. > :02:56.Middle East. They will share their security concern, which is not just
:02:57. > :03:00.what is going on in Yemen, but they are very concerned about what they
:03:01. > :03:04.see as Iranian expansionism, that has been a theme here at this
:03:05. > :03:09.conference in Bahrain that Boris Johnson addressed only a day or two
:03:10. > :03:13.ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's supposed gaffes or even the Downing
:03:14. > :03:19.Street slapping down of him, we have had the Prime Minister in the region
:03:20. > :03:26.earlier this week, we have got Mr Johnson there now, can we yet divine
:03:27. > :03:33.what the May Government strategy is in the Golf? -- Guff. In three
:03:34. > :03:42.words, in Boris Johnson's words Britain is back. He was very quick
:03:43. > :03:45.to say not in a jingoistic running up flags, new imperial list way,
:03:46. > :03:52.although that is Howley be seen by some. He gave a very forceful speech
:03:53. > :03:57.which seemed to go down well the gulf hosts here on Friday night
:03:58. > :04:04.which said Britain made a strategic mistake in, after 1968 in
:04:05. > :04:08.withdrawing east of Suez and it will reverse that decision, and invest ?3
:04:09. > :04:13.billion over the next ten years in building up its military not bases
:04:14. > :04:18.exactly but facilities -- facilities that are here in this part of the
:04:19. > :04:21.world. There are currently 15 hundred hundred British servicemen
:04:22. > :04:25.and women in this region, seven warships and so on. It isn't
:04:26. > :04:29.entirely true to say Britain withdrew east of Suez because we
:04:30. > :04:35.have had a military presence on and off here, the RAF had a base here in
:04:36. > :04:41.Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91. In 2003, of course, British planes
:04:42. > :04:47.and troops deployed from this area, but he and Theresa May are both
:04:48. > :04:51.saying post-Brexit, Britain's big emphasis or one of the big pushes is
:04:52. > :04:57.going to be to redouble its ties with gulf Arab nations, that isn't
:04:58. > :05:01.going to come as an easy bit of new, I think, to human rights campaigners
:05:02. > :05:07.and anti-arms campaigners because a large part of the ?7 billion of
:05:08. > :05:11.bilateral trade Britain did with Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals
:05:12. > :05:16.and those arms are being used in the conflict in Yemen, in some cases
:05:17. > :05:22.with tragic consequences. Thank you very much for talking to us.
:05:23. > :05:29.Instead of concentrating on Mr Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street
:05:30. > :05:34.reaction to it. Frank Gardner there has just given us a really important
:05:35. > :05:39.development, or explained what the British are up to there now. They
:05:40. > :05:42.want to be back in the gulf big time. Isn't that something we should
:05:43. > :05:46.be debating and discussing? It is fascinating. It is yet another
:05:47. > :05:50.example post-Brexit I would say this is someone who voted to Brexit, that
:05:51. > :05:57.the world is changing, and Britain's role is going to be transformed
:05:58. > :06:01.post-Brexit. I mean just on the Boris point, I completely agree, I
:06:02. > :06:06.think a lot of it is ridiculous, in a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I
:06:07. > :06:11.think what is really important about it, is that Number Ten feel
:06:12. > :06:15.threatened by him, and the reason that these ridiculous gaffes and
:06:16. > :06:21.many of them are not even gaffes are pounced upon is he is the main rival
:06:22. > :06:25.for the Crown, so it is high level power play politics, and it is May
:06:26. > :06:30.trying to keep him in his place. What do you make though, of Britain
:06:31. > :06:35.is back in the gulf? That is the big story, is it not. Utterly bizarre,
:06:36. > :06:39.post imperial fantasy, the idea we are back east of Suez? We are
:06:40. > :06:44.breaking off from our closest ally, most like us, the rest of Europe,
:06:45. > :06:50.democratic, decent human rights country, and instead we are allying
:06:51. > :06:56.ourself to perilous, dangerous, unpleasant countries... Why should
:06:57. > :07:04.we be back in the gulf? If that is the trade off, these are, you know,
:07:05. > :07:08.these renasty kingdoms, petty unpleasant and unstable countries.
:07:09. > :07:12.Don't we have to keep the straits open otherwise the oil supply
:07:13. > :07:16.collapses and the world economy will go into the worst recession
:07:17. > :07:21.depression ever? Don't we have to be involved in that We do, and I think
:07:22. > :07:25.what happens is if we leave Europe and we need trade everywhere else,
:07:26. > :07:29.we have to travel the world on our knees begging for friends from the
:07:30. > :07:36.most unsavoury people, where ever they are, whether it is... You keep
:07:37. > :07:39.saying we are leaving Europe, that is a geographic impossibility.
:07:40. > :07:44.Britain is part of Europe, we are the... Not what Liam Fox is saying.
:07:45. > :07:48.The key power in Nato, we are leaving the European Union, that is
:07:49. > :07:55.a different Tring from Europe. I am trying to move away from Mr Johnson,
:07:56. > :07:59.or even Downing Street to... You got yourself into a Brexit row.
:08:00. > :08:03.Everything is through the prism of Brexit, even what you have for
:08:04. > :08:08.breakfast, when you mix up the word like I did last week. What do you
:08:09. > :08:12.make of what Frank Gardner told us? I am somewhere between the two. It
:08:13. > :08:16.is a nighs the line say we are back in the Middle East and we will take
:08:17. > :08:20.this part of the world seriously, the truth is our military is almost
:08:21. > :08:25.tiny, it is smaller than it was in the Napoleonic wars, that is not a
:08:26. > :08:30.huge amount more. Of course there S one of the two new aircraft
:08:31. > :08:35.carriers, that will be deployed in the gulf, to help the Americans keep
:08:36. > :08:43.the straits of her muz open, because it is in Europe's interest, not just
:08:44. > :08:48.Britains, Europe's interest that these straits stay open, which is
:08:49. > :08:53.more so than America. That is what FRANK was talking about. That is no
:08:54. > :09:00.change, British foreign policy has been keeping the straits open... Now
:09:01. > :09:06.we have the ability do it. We don't have an aircraft aier at the moment.
:09:07. > :09:14.Nor do we have the fleet of ships it needs. It is a great thing to be
:09:15. > :09:18.trade morgue with the Nice, to be turning -- Middle East, to be
:09:19. > :09:22.turning round more tax revenues and the like. Even selling weapons. I
:09:23. > :09:26.don't know what more can be done. You look at what has happened. BBC
:09:27. > :09:30.has had horrific reports from the Yemen and if you look at what the
:09:31. > :09:37.weapons are being used for, is that the trade we want? Right. Let us
:09:38. > :09:39.move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a speech yesterday but he was
:09:40. > :09:40.inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell. -- interrupted.
:09:41. > :09:53.Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?
:09:54. > :09:56.Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then
:09:57. > :10:10.Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a
:10:11. > :10:15.distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be
:10:16. > :10:19.able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do
:10:20. > :10:25.something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather
:10:26. > :10:28.than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in
:10:29. > :10:34.general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning
:10:35. > :10:41.what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was
:10:42. > :10:44.interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had
:10:45. > :10:52.they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other
:10:53. > :10:57.than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics
:10:58. > :11:02.which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the
:11:03. > :11:07.British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the
:11:08. > :11:10.Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the
:11:11. > :11:14.things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is
:11:15. > :11:20.happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry
:11:21. > :11:24.watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last
:11:25. > :11:29.week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the
:11:30. > :11:36.west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.
:11:37. > :11:41.And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily
:11:42. > :11:46.Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If
:11:47. > :11:52.and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are
:11:53. > :11:56.talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than
:11:57. > :12:00.anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We
:12:01. > :12:04.will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I
:12:05. > :12:07.understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from
:12:08. > :12:12.analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it
:12:13. > :12:16.is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator
:12:17. > :12:22.of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in
:12:23. > :12:26.reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far
:12:27. > :12:31.you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty
:12:32. > :12:35.much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and
:12:36. > :12:38.the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the
:12:39. > :12:43.press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is
:12:44. > :12:49.behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.
:12:50. > :12:54.He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much
:12:55. > :12:58.of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is
:12:59. > :13:03.time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the
:13:04. > :13:08.cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,
:13:09. > :13:15.you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree
:13:16. > :13:20.at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want
:13:21. > :13:24.to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a
:13:25. > :13:27.reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,
:13:28. > :13:31.that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.
:13:32. > :13:37.I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily
:13:38. > :13:41.Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.
:13:42. > :13:44.and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.
:13:45. > :14:19.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:14:20. > :14:45.# We're going to have a party tonight
:14:46. > :14:51.# I'm going to find that boy underneath the mistletoe