12/03/2017

:00:32. > :00:37.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:38. > :00:41.David Davis tells MPs to leave the Brexit bill untouched,

:00:42. > :00:44.ahead of a week which could see Britain begin the process

:00:45. > :00:48.We'll talk to a Tory rebel and Ukip's Nigel Farage.

:00:49. > :00:51.Phillip Hammond's first budget hit the rocks thanks to a tax rise

:00:52. > :00:59.But how should we tax those who work for themselves?

:01:00. > :01:02.And remember Donald Trump's claim that Barack Obama had ordered

:01:03. > :01:09.We'll talk to the former Tory MP who set the whole story rolling.

:01:10. > :01:11.Later on the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire,

:01:12. > :01:14.we ask whether enough volunteers are coming forward to run

:01:15. > :01:27.the services which have fallen victim to council cuts.

:01:28. > :01:30.And joining me for all of that, three self-employed journalists

:01:31. > :01:33.who definitely don't deserve a tax break.

:01:34. > :01:34.It's Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer

:01:35. > :01:39.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme with all the carefree

:01:40. > :01:46.abandon of Katie Hopkins before a libel trial.

:01:47. > :01:49.BBC lawyers have suddenly got nervous!

:01:50. > :01:52.So first today, the government is gearing up to trigger Article 50,

:01:53. > :01:55.perhaps in the next 48 hours, and start negotiating Britain's

:01:56. > :01:58.Much has been written about the prospect of the Commons

:01:59. > :02:00.getting a "meaningful vote" on the deal Britain negotiates.

:02:01. > :02:03.Brexit Secretary David Davis was on the Andrew Marr programme

:02:04. > :02:05.earlier this morning and he was asked what happens

:02:06. > :02:15.Well, that is what is called the most favoured nation status deal

:02:16. > :02:20.There we go out, as it were, on WTO rules.

:02:21. > :02:23.That is why of course we do the contingency planning, to make

:02:24. > :02:31.The British people decided on June the 23rd last year

:02:32. > :02:36.My job, and the job of the government, is to make

:02:37. > :02:46.the terms on which that happens as beneficial as possible.

:02:47. > :02:53.There we have it, clearly, either Parliament votes for the deal when

:02:54. > :02:57.it is done or it out on World Trade Organisation rules. That's what the

:02:58. > :02:59.government means by a meaningful vote.

:03:00. > :03:05.I think we get over obsessed about whether there will be a legal right

:03:06. > :03:09.for Parliament to have a vote. If there is no deal or a bad deal, I

:03:10. > :03:12.think it would be politically impossible for the government to

:03:13. > :03:15.reject Parliament's desire for a vote because the atmosphere of

:03:16. > :03:18.politics will be completely different by then. I take David

:03:19. > :03:24.Davies seriously. Within Whitehall he has acquired a reputation as

:03:25. > :03:27.being the most conscientious and details sadly... And well briefed.

:03:28. > :03:31.Absolutely and well travelled in terms of European capitals of the

:03:32. > :03:34.three Brexit ministers. It is quite telling he said what he did and it

:03:35. > :03:39.is quite telling that within cabinet, two weeks ago he was

:03:40. > :03:42.floating the idea of no deal at all. Being if not the central estimate

:03:43. > :03:46.than a completely plausible eventuality. It is interesting. I

:03:47. > :03:52.would suggest the prospect of no deal is moving up the agenda. It is

:03:53. > :03:57.still less likely than more likely to happen. But it's no longer a kind

:03:58. > :04:00.of long tail way out there in the distance. Planning for no deal is

:04:01. > :04:03.the same as having contents insurance or travel insurance, plan

:04:04. > :04:07.for the worse case scenarios are prepared it happens. Even the worst

:04:08. > :04:11.case scenario, it's not that bad. Think of the Jeep 20, apart from the

:04:12. > :04:16.EU, four members of the G20 economies are successful members of

:04:17. > :04:20.the EU. The rest aren't and don't have trade deals but somehow these

:04:21. > :04:24.countries are prospering. They are growing at a higher rate. You are

:04:25. > :04:28.not frightened? Not remotely. We are obsessed with what we get from the

:04:29. > :04:31.EU and the key thing we get from leaving the EU is not the deal but

:04:32. > :04:35.the other deals we can finally make with other trading partners. They

:04:36. > :04:39.have higher growth than virtually every other EU country apart from

:04:40. > :04:43.Germany. It is sensible as a negotiating position for the

:04:44. > :04:46.government to say if there is no deal, we will accept there is no

:04:47. > :04:51.deal. We're not frightened of no deal. It was clear from what David

:04:52. > :04:54.Davies was saying that there will be a vote in parliament at the end of

:04:55. > :04:59.the process but there won't be a third option to send the government

:05:00. > :05:04.back to try to get a better deal. It is either the deal or we leave

:05:05. > :05:08.without a deal. In reality, that third option will be there. We don't

:05:09. > :05:13.know yet whether there will be a majority for the deal if they get

:05:14. > :05:18.one. What we do know now is that there isn't a majority in the

:05:19. > :05:23.Commons for no deal. Labour MPs are absolutely clear that no deal is

:05:24. > :05:26.worth then a bad deal. I've heard enough Tory MPs say the same thing.

:05:27. > :05:35.But they wouldn't get no deal through. When it comes to this vote,

:05:36. > :05:39.if whatever deal is rejected, there will then be, one way or another,

:05:40. > :05:42.the third option raised of go back again. But who gets to decide what

:05:43. > :05:46.is a bad deal? The British people will have a different idea than the

:05:47. > :05:54.two thirds of the Remain supporting MPs in the Commons. In terms of the

:05:55. > :05:58.vote, the Commons. Surely, if the Commons, which is what matters here,

:05:59. > :06:03.if the Commons were to vote against the deal as negotiated by the

:06:04. > :06:08.government, surely that would trigger a general election? If the

:06:09. > :06:10.government had recommended the deal, surely the government would then, if

:06:11. > :06:17.it still felt strongly about the deal, if the other 27 had said,

:06:18. > :06:21.we're not negotiating, extending it, it would in effect become a second

:06:22. > :06:24.referendum on the deal. In effect it would be a no-confidence vote in the

:06:25. > :06:27.government. You've got to assume that unless something massively

:06:28. > :06:31.changes in the opposition before then, the government would feel

:06:32. > :06:35.fairly confident about a general election on those terms. Unless the

:06:36. > :06:39.deal is hideously bad and obviously basso every vote in the country...

:06:40. > :06:43.The prior minister said if it is that bad she would have rather no

:06:44. > :06:48.deal. So that eventuality arrives. -- the Prime Minister has said. Not

:06:49. > :06:54.a second referendum general election in two years' time. Don't put any

:06:55. > :06:56.holidays for! LAUGHTER -- don't look any.

:06:57. > :06:59.So the Brexit bill looks likely to clear Parliament this week.

:07:00. > :07:03.That depends on the number of Conservative MPs who are prepared

:07:04. > :07:05.to vote against their government on two key issues.

:07:06. > :07:09.Theresa May could be in negotiations with our European

:07:10. > :07:11.partners within days, but there may be some

:07:12. > :07:13.wheeler-dealings she has to do with her own MPs, too.

:07:14. > :07:17.Cast your mind back to the beginning of month.

:07:18. > :07:19.The bill to trigger Article 50 passed comfortably

:07:20. > :07:27.But three Conservatives voted for Labour's amendments to ensure

:07:28. > :07:32.the rights of EU citizens already in the UK.

:07:33. > :07:34.Seven Tory MPs voted to force the government to give Parliament

:07:35. > :07:39.a say on the deal struck with the EU before it's finalised.

:07:40. > :07:44.But remember those numbers, they're important.

:07:45. > :07:47.On the issue of a meaningful vote on a deal, I'm told there might have

:07:48. > :07:50.been more rebels had it not been for this assurance from

:07:51. > :07:55.I can confirm that the government will bring forward a motion

:07:56. > :07:58.on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses

:07:59. > :08:02.And we expect, and intend, that this will happen before

:08:03. > :08:09.the European Parliament debates and votes on the final agreement.

:08:10. > :08:14.When the government was criticised for reeling back

:08:15. > :08:18.from when and what it would offer a vote on.

:08:19. > :08:21.The bill then moved into the Lords, where peers passed it

:08:22. > :08:29.And the second, that Parliament be given a meaningful vote on the terms

:08:30. > :08:32.of the deal or indeed a vote in the event of there

:08:33. > :08:35.The so-called Brexit bill will return to Commons

:08:36. > :08:40.Ministers insist that both amendments would weaken

:08:41. > :08:42.the government's negotiating hand and are seeking to overturn them.

:08:43. > :08:48.But, as ever, politics is a numbers game.

:08:49. > :08:50.Theresa May has a working majority of 17.

:08:51. > :08:54.On Brexit, though, it's probably higher.

:08:55. > :08:56.At least six Labour MPs generally vote with

:08:57. > :09:00.Plus, eight DUP MPs, two from the Ulster Unionist party

:09:01. > :09:07.If all Conservatives vote with the government as well,

:09:08. > :09:13.Therefore, 26 Conservative rebels are needed for the government to be

:09:14. > :09:19.So, are there rough waters ahead for Theresa May?

:09:20. > :09:22.What numbers are we looking at, in terms of a potential rebellion?

:09:23. > :09:25.I think we're looking at a large number of people who are interested

:09:26. > :09:28.This building is a really important building.

:09:29. > :09:30.It's symbolic of a huge amount of history.

:09:31. > :09:34.And for it not to be involved in this momentous time would,

:09:35. > :09:41.But he says a clear verbal statement from the government on a meaningful

:09:42. > :09:47.vote on any deal would be enough to get most Tory MPs onside.

:09:48. > :09:49.It was already said about David Jones.

:09:50. > :09:50.It's slightly unravelled a little bit during

:09:51. > :09:55.I think this is an opportunity to really get that clarity

:09:56. > :09:58.through so that we can all vote for Article 50 and get

:09:59. > :10:03.We've have spoken to several Tory MPs who say they are minded to vote

:10:04. > :10:07.One said the situation was sad and depressing.

:10:08. > :10:10.The other said that the whips must be worried because they don't

:10:11. > :10:16.A minister told me Downing Street was looking again at the possibility

:10:17. > :10:21.of offering a vote in the event of no deal being reached.

:10:22. > :10:23.But that its position was unlikely to change.

:10:24. > :10:25.And, anyway, government sources have told the Sunday Politics they're not

:10:26. > :10:32.That those Tory MPs who didn't back either amendment the first time

:10:33. > :10:36.round would look silly if they did, this time.

:10:37. > :10:39.It would have to be a pretty hefty lot of people changing their minds

:10:40. > :10:42.about things that have already been discussed in quite a lot of detail,

:10:43. > :10:46.last time it was in the Commons, for things to be reversed this time.

:10:47. > :10:49.There's no doubt that a number of Tory MPs are very concerned.

:10:50. > :10:51.Labour are pessimistic about the chances of enough Tory

:10:52. > :10:55.rebels backing either of the amendments in the Commons.

:10:56. > :10:58.The important thing, I think, is to focus on the fact

:10:59. > :11:00.that this is the last chance to have a say on this.

:11:01. > :11:05.If they're going to vote with us, Monday is the time to do it.

:11:06. > :11:06.Assuming the bill does pass the Commons unamended,

:11:07. > :11:09.it will go back to the Lord's on Monday night where Labour peers

:11:10. > :11:13.have already indicated they won't block it again.

:11:14. > :11:16.It means that the Brexit bill would become law and Theresa May

:11:17. > :11:20.would be free to trigger Article 50 within days.

:11:21. > :11:22.Her own deadline was the end of this month.

:11:23. > :11:29.But one minister told me there were advantages to doing it early.

:11:30. > :11:31.We're joined now from Nottingham by the Conservative MP Anna Soubry.

:11:32. > :11:34.She's previously voted against the government on the question

:11:35. > :11:41.of whether Parliament should have a final say over the EU deal.

:11:42. > :11:46.Anna Soubry, I think it was clear this morning from David Davies that

:11:47. > :11:50.what he means by meaningful vote is not what you mean by a meaningful

:11:51. > :11:55.vote. He thinks the choice for Parliament would be to either vote

:11:56. > :11:58.for the deal and if Parliament doesn't, we leave on World Trade

:11:59. > :12:05.Organisation rules, on a bare-bones structure. In the end, will he

:12:06. > :12:09.accept that in the Commons tomorrow? No, because my problem and I don't

:12:10. > :12:13.think it is a problem, but my problem, the government's problem is

:12:14. > :12:17.that what I want is then to answer this question. What happens in the

:12:18. > :12:21.event of their not being any deal? David Davies made it very clear that

:12:22. > :12:25.in the event of there being no deal, Parliament would have no say. It

:12:26. > :12:29.means through your elected representatives, the people of this

:12:30. > :12:34.country would have no say on what happens if the government doesn't

:12:35. > :12:37.get a deal. I think the request that Parliament should have a say on

:12:38. > :12:41.Parliamentary sovereignty, is perfectly reasonable. That is what I

:12:42. > :12:48.want David to say. If he says that, I won't be rebelling. If he does...

:12:49. > :12:53.They have refused to say that. Sorry. If he continues to say what

:12:54. > :12:59.he said the BBC this morning, which means that the vote will be either

:13:00. > :13:05.to accept the as negotiated or to leave on WTO rules, will you rebel

:13:06. > :13:09.on that question but no, no, sorry, if there's a deal, Parliament will

:13:10. > :13:13.have a say. So that's fine. And we will see what the deal is and we

:13:14. > :13:17.will look at the options two years down the road. When who knows

:13:18. > :13:21.what'll happen in our economy and world economy. That is one matter

:13:22. > :13:24.which I am content on. The Prime Minister, a woman of her word has

:13:25. > :13:30.said that in the event of a deal, Parliament will vote on any deal. I

:13:31. > :13:34.don't difficulty. To clarify, I will come onto that. These are important

:13:35. > :13:38.matters. I want to clarify, not argue with you. You are content that

:13:39. > :13:41.if there is a deal, we will come under no deal in a second, but if

:13:42. > :13:48.there is a deal, you are content with the choice of being able to

:13:49. > :13:51.vote for that deal or leaving on WTO terms? No, you're speculating as to

:13:52. > :13:57.what might happen in two years' time. What the options might be.

:13:58. > :14:00.Personally I find it inconceivable that the government will come back

:14:01. > :14:04.with a rubbish deal. They will either come back with a good deal,

:14:05. > :14:07.which I won't have a problem with or they will come back with no deal. To

:14:08. > :14:12.speculate about coming back with a deal, there is a variety of options.

:14:13. > :14:16.I understand that that is what the Lord amendments are about. They are

:14:17. > :14:23.about a vote at the end of the process. Do forgive me, the Lords

:14:24. > :14:26.amendment is not the same that I've voted for in Parliament. What we

:14:27. > :14:29.call the Chris Leslie amendment, which was talking about whatever the

:14:30. > :14:31.agreement is, whatever happens at the end of the negotiations,

:14:32. > :14:35.Parliament will have a vote. Parliament will have a say. The

:14:36. > :14:40.Lords amendment is a bit more technical. It is the principle of no

:14:41. > :14:45.deal that is agitating us. Let's clarify on this. They are

:14:46. > :14:49.complicated matters. What do you want the government to say? What do

:14:50. > :14:53.you want David Davis to say tomorrow on what should the Parliamentary

:14:54. > :14:58.process should be if there is no deal? Quite. I want a commitment

:14:59. > :15:01.from him that in the event of no deal, it will come into Parliament

:15:02. > :15:09.and Parliament will determine what happens next. It could be that in

:15:10. > :15:12.the event of no deal, the best thing is for us to jump off the cliff into

:15:13. > :15:16.WTO tariff is. I find it unlikely but that might be the reality. There

:15:17. > :15:20.might be other alternatives. Most importantly, including saying to the

:15:21. > :15:22.government, go back, carry on. The question that everybody has to ask

:15:23. > :15:34.is, why won't the government give My fear is what this is about is

:15:35. > :15:38.asked deliberately, not the Prime Minister, but others deliberately

:15:39. > :15:44.ensuring we have no deal and no deal pretty soon and in that event, we

:15:45. > :15:48.jumped off the cliff onto WTO tariffs and nobody in this country

:15:49. > :15:54.and the people of this country do not have a say. My constituents did

:15:55. > :15:59.not vote for hard Brexit. You do not want the government to

:16:00. > :16:05.have the ability if there is no deal to automatically fall back on the

:16:06. > :16:09.WTO rules? Quite. It is as simple as that. We are now speculating about

:16:10. > :16:16.what will happen in two years. I want to find out what happens

:16:17. > :16:20.tomorrow. What will you do if you don't get that assurance? I will

:16:21. > :16:25.either abstain, or I will vote to keep this amendment within the Bill.

:16:26. > :16:29.I will either vote against my government, which I do not do

:16:30. > :16:33.likely, I have never voted against my government until the Chris Leslie

:16:34. > :16:37.clause when the Bill was going through, or I will abstain, which

:16:38. > :16:40.has pretty much the same effect because it comes into the Commons

:16:41. > :16:46.with both amendments so you have positively to vote to take the map.

:16:47. > :16:52.Can you give us an idea of how many like-minded conservative colleagues

:16:53. > :16:57.there are. I genuinely do not know. You must talk to each other. I do

:16:58. > :17:05.not talk to every member of my party. You know people who are

:17:06. > :17:09.like-minded. I do. I am not doing numbers games. I know you want that

:17:10. > :17:14.but I genuinely do not know the figure. I think this is an

:17:15. > :17:20.uncomfortable truth. People have to understand what has happened in our

:17:21. > :17:25.country, two particular newspapers, creating an atmosphere and setting

:17:26. > :17:27.an agenda and I think many people are rather concerned, some

:17:28. > :17:34.frightened, to put their head over the parapet. There are many millions

:17:35. > :17:39.of people who feel totally excluded from this process. Many of them

:17:40. > :17:42.voted to remain. And they have lost their voice. We have covered the

:17:43. > :17:43.ground I wanted to. We're joined now by the Ukip MEP

:17:44. > :17:56.and former leader Nigel Farage. Article 50 triggered, we are leaving

:17:57. > :18:00.the EU, the single market and the customs union. What is left you to

:18:01. > :18:04.complain about? All of that will happen and hopefully we will get the

:18:05. > :18:08.triggered this week which is good news. What worries me a little I'm

:18:09. > :18:12.not sure the government recognises how strong their handers. At the

:18:13. > :18:16.summit in Brussels, the word in the corridors is that we are prepared to

:18:17. > :18:20.give away fishing waters as a bargaining chip and the worry is

:18:21. > :18:25.what deal we get. Are we leaving, yes I am pleased about that. You are

:18:26. > :18:30.under relevant voice in the deal because the deal will be voted on in

:18:31. > :18:34.Parliament and you have one MP. You are missing the point, the real vote

:18:35. > :18:38.in parliament is not in London but Strasbourg. This is perhaps the

:18:39. > :18:42.biggest obstacle the British Government faces. Not what happens

:18:43. > :18:47.in the Commons that the end of the two years, the European Parliament

:18:48. > :18:52.could veto the deal. What that means is people need to adopt a different

:18:53. > :18:55.approach. We do not need to be lobbying in the corridors of

:18:56. > :19:01.Brussels to get a good deal, we need is a country to be out there talking

:19:02. > :19:05.to the German car workers and Belgian chocolate makers, putting as

:19:06. > :19:08.much pressure as we can on politicians from across Europe to

:19:09. > :19:13.come to a sensible arrangement. It is in their interests more than

:19:14. > :19:21.ours. In what way is the vision of Brexit set out by David Davis any

:19:22. > :19:24.different from your own? I am delighted there are people now

:19:25. > :19:32.adopting the position I argued for many years. Good. But now... Like

:19:33. > :19:38.Douglas Carswell, he said he found David Davis' performers this morning

:19:39. > :19:42.reassuring. It is. And just as when Theresa May was Home Secretary every

:19:43. > :19:46.performance she gave was hugely reassuring. She was seen to be a

:19:47. > :19:52.heroine after her conference speeches and then did not deliver. I

:19:53. > :19:58.am concerned that even before we start we are making concessions. You

:19:59. > :20:02.described in the EU's divorce bill demands, 60 billion euros is floated

:20:03. > :20:08.around. You said it is laughable and I understand that. Do you maintain

:20:09. > :20:17.that we will not have to pay a penny to leave? It is nine months since we

:20:18. > :20:22.voted exit and assuming the trigger of Article 50, we would have paid 30

:20:23. > :20:26.billion in since we had a vote. We are still members. But honestly, I

:20:27. > :20:31.do not think there is an appetite for us to pay a massive divorce

:20:32. > :20:38.Bill. There are assets also. Not a penny? There will be some ongoing

:20:39. > :20:44.commitments, but the numbers talked about our 50, ?60 billion, they are

:20:45. > :20:49.frankly laughable. I am trying to find out if you are prepared to

:20:50. > :20:54.accept some kind of exit cost, it may be nowhere near 60 billion. We

:20:55. > :20:57.have to do a net agreement, the government briefed about our share

:20:58. > :21:03.of the European Union investment bank. Would you accept a

:21:04. > :21:09.transitional arrangement, deal, five, ten billion, as part of the

:21:10. > :21:14.divorce settlement? We are painted net ?30 million every single day at

:21:15. > :21:18.the moment, ?10 billion plus every year. That is just our contribution.

:21:19. > :21:25.We are going to make a massive saving on this. What do you make of

:21:26. > :21:30.what Anna Soubry said, that if there is no deal, and it is being talked

:21:31. > :21:34.about more. Maybe the government managing expectations. There is an

:21:35. > :21:39.expectation we will have a deal, but if there is no deal, that the

:21:40. > :21:45.government cannot just go to WTO rules, but it has to have a vote in

:21:46. > :21:47.parliament? By the time we get to that there will be a general

:21:48. > :21:53.election coming down the tracks and I suspect that if at the end of the

:21:54. > :21:57.two-year process there is no deal and by the way, no deal is a lot

:21:58. > :22:02.better for the nation than where we currently are, because we freed of

:22:03. > :22:06.regulations and able to make our own deals in the world. I think what

:22:07. > :22:13.would happen, and if Parliament said it did not back, at the end of the

:22:14. > :22:19.negotiation a general election would happen quickly. According to reports

:22:20. > :22:25.this morning, one of your most senior aides has passed a dossier to

:22:26. > :22:29.police claiming Tories committed electoral fraud in Thanet South, the

:22:30. > :22:34.seat contested in the election. What evidence to you have? I read that in

:22:35. > :22:38.the newspapers as you have. I am not going to comment on it. Will you not

:22:39. > :22:45.aware of the contents of the dossier? I am not aware of the

:22:46. > :22:50.dossier. He was your election strategists. I am dubious as to

:22:51. > :22:56.whether this dossier exists at all. Perhaps the newspapers have got this

:22:57. > :23:03.wrong. Concerns about the downloading of data the took place

:23:04. > :23:10.in that constituency, there are. Allegedly, he has refuted it, was it

:23:11. > :23:16.done by your MP to give information to the Tories, do you have evidence

:23:17. > :23:23.about? We have evidence Mr Carswell downloaded information, we have no

:23:24. > :23:27.evidence what he did with it. It is not just your aide who has been

:23:28. > :23:33.making allegations against the Conservatives in Thanet South and

:23:34. > :23:40.other seats, if the evidence was to be substantial, and if it was to

:23:41. > :23:43.result in another by-election being called an Thanet South had to be

:23:44. > :23:48.fought again, would you be the Ukip candidate? I probably would. You

:23:49. > :23:55.probably would? Yes. Just probably? Just probably. It would be your

:23:56. > :23:58.eighth attempt. Winning seats in parliament under first past the post

:23:59. > :24:01.is not the only way to change politics in Britain and I would like

:24:02. > :24:07.to think I proved that. Let's go back to Anna Soubry. The implication

:24:08. > :24:11.of what we were saying on the panel at the start of the show and what

:24:12. > :24:17.Nigel Farage was saying there would be that if at the end of the process

:24:18. > :24:21.whatever the vote, if the government were to lose it, it would provoke a

:24:22. > :24:26.general election properly. I think that would be right. Let's get real.

:24:27. > :24:29.The government is not going to come to Parliament with anything other

:24:30. > :24:38.than something it believes is a good deal and if it rejected it, would be

:24:39. > :24:41.unlikely, there would be a de facto vote of no confidence and it would

:24:42. > :24:47.be within the fixed term Parliaments act and that be it. The problem is,

:24:48. > :24:52.more likely, because of the story put up about the 50 billion, 60

:24:53. > :24:56.billion and you look at the way things are flagged up that both the

:24:57. > :25:00.Prime Minister and Boris Johnson saying, we should be asking them for

:25:01. > :25:05.money back, I think the big fear and the fear I have is we will be

:25:06. > :25:10.crashing out in six months. You think we could leave as quickly as

:25:11. > :25:17.six months. Explain that. I think they will stoke up the demand from

:25:18. > :25:21.the EU for 50, 60 billion back and my real concern is that within six

:25:22. > :25:25.months, where we're not making much progress, maybe nine months, and

:25:26. > :25:30.people are getting increasingly fed up with the EU because they are told

:25:31. > :25:34.it wants unreasonable demands, and then the crash. I think what is

:25:35. > :25:38.happening is the government is putting in place scaffolding at the

:25:39. > :25:43.bottom of the cliff to break our fall when we come to fall off that

:25:44. > :25:49.cliff and I think many in government are preparing not for a two-year

:25:50. > :25:54.process, but six, to nine months, off the cliff, out we go. That is my

:25:55. > :25:59.fear. That is interesting. I have not heard that express before by

:26:00. > :26:06.someone in your position. I suspect you have made Nigel Farage's date.

:26:07. > :26:11.It is a lovely thought. I would say to Anna Soubry she is out of date

:26:12. > :26:14.with this. 40 years ago there was a good argument for joining the common

:26:15. > :26:19.market because tariffs around the world was so high. That has changed

:26:20. > :26:24.with the World Trade Organisation. We are leaving the EU and rejoining

:26:25. > :26:32.a great big world and it is exciting. She was giving an

:26:33. > :26:34.interesting perspective on what could happen in nine months rather

:26:35. > :26:38.than two years. I thank you both. It was Philip Hammond's first

:26:39. > :26:40.budget on Wednesday - billed as a steady-as-she-goes

:26:41. > :26:46.affair, but turned out to cause uproar after the Chancellor appeared

:26:47. > :26:49.to contradict a Tory manifesto commitment with an increase

:26:50. > :26:51.in national insurance contributions. The aim was to address what some see

:26:52. > :27:00.as an imbalance in the tax system, where employees pay

:27:01. > :27:01.more National Insurance The controversy centres

:27:02. > :27:05.on increasing the so-called class 4 rate for the self-employed who make

:27:06. > :27:08.a profit of more than ?8,060 a year. It will go up in stages

:27:09. > :27:14.from 9% to 11% in 2019. The changes mean that over one

:27:15. > :27:18.and a half million will pay on average ?240 a year

:27:19. > :27:23.more in contributions. Some Conservative MPs were unhappy,

:27:24. > :27:29.with even the Wales Minister saying: "I will apologise to every

:27:30. > :27:31.voter in Wales that read the Conservative manifesto

:27:32. > :27:33.in the 2015 election." The Sun labelled Philip

:27:34. > :27:38.Hammond "spite van man". The Daily Mail called the budget

:27:39. > :27:41."no laughing matter". By Thursday, Theresa May

:27:42. > :27:44.said the government One of the first things I did

:27:45. > :27:50.as Prime Minister was to commission Matthew Taylor to review the rights

:27:51. > :27:54.and protections that were available to self-employed workers

:27:55. > :27:56.and whether they should be enhanced. People will be able to look

:27:57. > :27:59.at the government paper when we produce it, showing

:28:00. > :28:01.all our changes, and take And, of course, the Chancellor will

:28:02. > :28:06.be speaking, as will his ministers, to MPs, businesspeople and others

:28:07. > :28:11.to listen to the concerns. Well, the man you heard mentioned

:28:12. > :28:13.there, Matthew Taylor, has the job of producing

:28:14. > :28:27.a report into the future Welcome. The Chancellor has decided

:28:28. > :28:31.the self-employed should pay almost the same in National Insurance, not

:28:32. > :28:36.the same but almost, as the employed will stop what is left of your

:28:37. > :28:39.commission? The commission has a broader frame of reference and we

:28:40. > :28:45.are interested in the quality of work in the economy at the heart of

:28:46. > :28:51.what I hope will be proposing is a set of shifts that will improve the

:28:52. > :28:54.quality of that work so we have an economy where all work is fair and

:28:55. > :28:58.decent and all jobs give people scope for development and

:28:59. > :29:06.fulfilment. The issue of taxes a small part. You will cover that? We

:29:07. > :29:09.will, because the tax system and employment regulation system drive

:29:10. > :29:15.particular behaviours in our labour market. You approve I think of the

:29:16. > :29:20.general direction of this policy of raising National Insurance on the

:29:21. > :29:25.self-employed. Taxing them in return perhaps for more state benefits. Why

:29:26. > :29:30.are so many others on the left against it from Tim Farron to John

:29:31. > :29:34.McDonnell? Tax rises are unpopular and it is the role of the opposition

:29:35. > :29:38.parties to make capital from unpopular tax rises. I think as tax

:29:39. > :29:42.rises go this is broadly progressive. There are self-employed

:29:43. > :29:47.people on low incomes and they will be better off. It is economic league

:29:48. > :29:50.rational because the reason for the difference in National Insurance --

:29:51. > :29:55.economically. It was to do with state entitlements. The government

:29:56. > :30:01.is consulting about paid parental leave. A series of governments have

:30:02. > :30:06.not been good about thinking about medium sustainability of the tax

:30:07. > :30:09.base. Self-employment is growing. But it is eroding the tax base. It

:30:10. > :30:16.is important to address those issues. A number of think tanks have

:30:17. > :30:22.said this is a progressive move. Yet, a number of left-wing

:30:23. > :30:27.politicians have been against it. And a number of Tories have said

:30:28. > :30:31.this is a progressive move and not a Tory government move, the balance of

:30:32. > :30:36.you will pay more tax, but you will get more state benefits is not a

:30:37. > :30:39.Tory approach to things. That a Tory approach will be you will pay less

:30:40. > :30:42.tax but entitled to fewer benefits as well.

:30:43. > :30:52.I preferred in and policies to politics -- I prefer policies. When

:30:53. > :30:56.people look at the policy and when they look the fact that there is no

:30:57. > :30:59.real historical basis for that big national insurance differential,

:31:00. > :31:03.they see it is a sensible policy. I don't have to deal with the

:31:04. > :31:07.politics. There has been a huge growth in self-employment from the

:31:08. > :31:08.turn of the millennium. It's been strongest amongst older workers,

:31:09. > :31:16.women part-timers. Do you have any idea, do you have

:31:17. > :31:21.the data in your commission that could tell us how many are taking

:31:22. > :31:25.self-employment because they like the flexibility and they like the

:31:26. > :31:30.tax advantages that come with it, too, or they are being forced into

:31:31. > :31:34.it by employers who don't want the extra costs of employment? Do we

:31:35. > :31:41.know the difference? We do, broadly. Most surveys on self-employment and

:31:42. > :31:43.flexible forms of employment suggest about two thirds to three quarters

:31:44. > :31:48.enjoy it, they like the flexibility, they like the autonomy and about a

:31:49. > :31:52.third to one quarter are less happy. That tends to be because they would

:31:53. > :31:55.like to have a full-time permanent job. It is not necessary that they

:31:56. > :31:59.don't enjoy what they are doing, they would like to do other things.

:32:00. > :32:04.And some of the protections that come with it? Yes. There are some

:32:05. > :32:07.people who are forced into southern employees by high-risk but also some

:32:08. > :32:11.people feel like they can't get a proper job as it were. --

:32:12. > :32:17.self-employment by people who hire them. It is on the narrow matter of

:32:18. > :32:21.tax revenues but if you are employed on ?32,000 the state will take over

:32:22. > :32:26.?6,000 in national insurance contributions, that is quite chunky.

:32:27. > :32:30.If you are self-employed it is ?2300. But the big difference

:32:31. > :32:36.between those figures isn't what the employee is paying, it's the

:32:37. > :32:41.employer's contributions up to almost 14%, and cupped for as much

:32:42. > :32:49.as you are paid. What do you do about employers' contributions for

:32:50. > :32:53.the self employed? -- it is uncapped for as much. What I recommend is

:32:54. > :32:57.that we should probably move from taxing employment to taxing labour.

:32:58. > :33:01.We should probably have a more level playing field so it doesn't really

:33:02. > :33:05.matter... Explained that I thought it was the same thing. If you are a

:33:06. > :33:10.self-employed gardener, you are a different tax regime to a gardener

:33:11. > :33:18.who works for a gardening firm. On the individual side and on the firm

:33:19. > :33:21.side. As we see new business models, so-called gig working, partly with

:33:22. > :33:27.technology, we need a more level playing field saying that we're

:33:28. > :33:31.taxing people's work, not the form in which they deliver that. That is

:33:32. > :33:33.part of the reason we have seen the growth of particular business

:33:34. > :33:38.models. They are innovative and creative and partly driven by the

:33:39. > :33:43.fact that if you can describe yourself as self-employed there are

:33:44. > :33:44.tax advantages. Coming out in June? Will you come back and talk to us?

:33:45. > :33:46.Yes. We say goodbye to viewers

:33:47. > :33:51.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:33:52. > :33:56.we'll be talking to the former Tory MP who was the root

:33:57. > :34:09.of Donald Trump's allegation You're watching the Sunday Politics

:34:10. > :34:12.for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Coming up today: Is the Big

:34:13. > :34:15.Society filling a big Why a growing army of volunteers

:34:16. > :34:20.are running services which have And following those stinging budget

:34:21. > :34:26.headlines, we hear from white van man on that controversial rise

:34:27. > :34:32.in national insurance. Yes, plenty to talk about today

:34:33. > :34:35.with the fallout from the budget Our guests are Philip Davies,

:34:36. > :34:42.Conservative MP for Shipley, Angela Smith, Labour MP

:34:43. > :34:44.for Penistone and Stocksbridge, Greg Mulholland, Liberal Democrat MP

:34:45. > :34:46.for Leeds North West. Well, look, the question I'm

:34:47. > :34:51.going to ask you is, or the people you represent

:34:52. > :34:53.going to feel better Well, Tim, I have seen

:34:54. > :35:00.many of my voters, and there are a high proportion of my voters

:35:01. > :35:02.who are self-employed and they are going to feel

:35:03. > :35:05.very badly let down. Conservative Government promised

:35:06. > :35:07.there would be no increases in national insurance,

:35:08. > :35:09.and here we are. And on top of that we've got only

:35:10. > :35:15.?2 billion in additional funding for social care,

:35:16. > :35:17.when we know that it's been cut There is a real crisis

:35:18. > :35:23.in social care. And I'm afraid this budget provides

:35:24. > :35:26.no answers to the problems faced by the country,

:35:27. > :35:30.and the voters in my constituency. Do you accept this has

:35:31. > :35:32.not been the best week I don't think we should have

:35:33. > :35:37.increased national insurance contributions on the self-employed -

:35:38. > :35:39.as Angela said, we promised If we were going to scrap our

:35:40. > :35:43.manifesto commitment, we would have been far better off

:35:44. > :35:46.scrapping of promised to spend And cut that budget and use that

:35:47. > :35:51.to fund social care. That would have been far better

:35:52. > :35:53.and for more popular And I certainly don't support

:35:54. > :36:02.what the Chancellor is doing with Greg Mulholland, whenever

:36:03. > :36:05.you are on the programme, we always bill you as Parliament's

:36:06. > :36:07.voice of the pub. Well, I think there were many

:36:08. > :36:12.serious issues that people There were some pieces of positive

:36:13. > :36:16.news to reverse some of the dangerous increases

:36:17. > :36:18.in business rates that affect pubs and also affect other

:36:19. > :36:21.businesses like sports shops, but I think Angela is right -

:36:22. > :36:24.it was a very disappointing But now it's chaotic because already

:36:25. > :36:30.we've had something of a U-turn. Theresa May has said, we won't

:36:31. > :36:33.actually do this until autumn. And actually frankly,

:36:34. > :36:36.and I think you see signs of working together across the parties

:36:37. > :36:39.and the backbenches, we want to get rid of this very

:36:40. > :36:42.unfair attack on the self-employed, who don't get paid holidays

:36:43. > :36:46.and don't get sick pay. It's outrageous,

:36:47. > :36:48.as well as a broken promise. And it's self-defeating

:36:49. > :36:50.for what the Government A number of Yorkshire

:36:51. > :36:54.and Lincolnshire Conservatives have criticised the controversial

:36:55. > :36:56.proposal to increase national insurance contributions for many

:36:57. > :37:00.self-employed workers. Although Theresa May has said this

:37:01. > :37:02.won't now be debated by MPs until the autumn,

:37:03. > :37:05.it hasn't stopped a fierce backlash against the

:37:06. > :37:10.Chancellor's announcement. It's been described

:37:11. > :37:13.as a tax on white van man. Millions of self-employed workers

:37:14. > :37:17.will pay an average of ?240 more And it's a move that

:37:18. > :37:22.will affect people like Darren, We are a very, very easy target,

:37:23. > :37:29.because we pay our taxes and because we, you know,

:37:30. > :37:32.we live how we are supposed So I just feel that we are

:37:33. > :37:37.a bit of an easy target. The Chancellor says he wants

:37:38. > :37:40.to create a level playing field when it comes to the national

:37:41. > :37:42.insurance paid by employees and those who are self-employed,

:37:43. > :37:45.but that's not how many business Some of the people they are

:37:46. > :37:49.competing with our large businesses who, perhaps,

:37:50. > :37:51.will be enjoying business rates cuts and certainly corporation tax cuts,

:37:52. > :37:53.so the playing field We feel that this is an unfair

:37:54. > :37:59.development and it should be looked at very carefully and perhaps

:38:00. > :38:02.reversed and changed. We have to have a tax

:38:03. > :38:05.system that is fair, and it's right that we ask people

:38:06. > :38:07.to contribute appropriately for the benefits that they are

:38:08. > :38:11.receiving from the state. So, no U-turn, but,

:38:12. > :38:14.with negative budget headlines, many MPs hope the Chancellor

:38:15. > :38:17.will look again at this So, just to be clear on this,

:38:18. > :38:23.Philip Davies, if this came to a vote in the autumn amongst MPs,

:38:24. > :38:26.you would vote against it? I mean, I don't know what proposals

:38:27. > :38:32.that the Prime Minister or the Chancellor might bring

:38:33. > :38:34.forward to mitigate against it, But, as things stand,

:38:35. > :38:39.if it came to a vote Do you think this will now be

:38:40. > :38:44.quietly ditched by the Treasury? You know, seeing as there is so much

:38:45. > :38:47.opposition from your party. Well, I think they're

:38:48. > :38:49.going to have do something, just because of the parliamentary

:38:50. > :38:50.arithmetic. If all of the opposition

:38:51. > :38:52.parties are against it, which they appear to be,

:38:53. > :38:55.it only takes about ten or so Conservative MPs to vote

:38:56. > :38:57.against it and it is sunk, so, given the scale of opposition

:38:58. > :39:00.received to it, it seems they are going to have

:39:01. > :39:02.to do something. Angela Smith, this was, by all

:39:03. > :39:05.accounts, a badly received budget. The Conservatives are still almost

:39:06. > :39:10.20 points ahead in the polls. You must be banging your head

:39:11. > :39:14.about the lack of opposition. The point I would make

:39:15. > :39:19.here is that we have do, as a party, I think,

:39:20. > :39:23.but the focus squarely on how the Government is performing here,

:39:24. > :39:26.and maybe that is where some Because, you know, when you look

:39:27. > :39:31.at it properly, what you see and what we see in front of us

:39:32. > :39:34.is a Government whose borrowing The borrowing is

:39:35. > :39:37.as high as it ever was. They have boxed themselves

:39:38. > :39:39.into a corner with a promise of no tax increases,

:39:40. > :39:42.a promise they are now breaking. And public spending

:39:43. > :39:44.is at rock-bottom levels, and is now cutting

:39:45. > :39:46.deeply into essential services So, why isn't your

:39:47. > :39:51.party making traction? I think we need to start making

:39:52. > :39:56.traction on these key issues, so, for instance, on the self-employed,

:39:57. > :39:59.the fact that self-employed workers will start paying this extra

:40:00. > :40:02.national insurance on only 16,500 a year and above, is utterly unfair

:40:03. > :40:06.and it's something that I hope our front bench will fight

:40:07. > :40:11.very, very hard indeed. And I think, in addition

:40:12. > :40:13.to that, there is no promise from the Government

:40:14. > :40:16.that they will reciprocate, in terms of these insurance increases,

:40:17. > :40:21.with an improved benefit entitlement, which we need

:40:22. > :40:24.to see before we can even think about accepting any

:40:25. > :40:27.of these proposals. As they stand at the moment,

:40:28. > :40:31.they are totally unacceptable. Greg Mulholland, do you accept

:40:32. > :40:33.now that unless something catastrophic happens Theresa May

:40:34. > :40:35.is cruising to another The elephant in the room

:40:36. > :40:41.that was completely omitted by the Chancellor, extraordinarily,

:40:42. > :40:44.who... It begins with B, and it's

:40:45. > :40:49.the incredible political, but actually economic and financial,

:40:50. > :40:53.turmoil caused by Brexit. So, frankly, who knows

:40:54. > :40:58.where we will be at the time Or if Theresa May will have been

:40:59. > :41:04.able to deliver any of the things That, of course, is why

:41:05. > :41:07.the Liberal Democrats have said that the people should get their say

:41:08. > :41:11.on the terms of our exit. People have had their say,

:41:12. > :41:13.though, haven't they? Absolutely, and if we trusted them

:41:14. > :41:16.to make that decision, we should trust them again

:41:17. > :41:20.on the terms of exit. But this Government

:41:21. > :41:22.have a lot of things At the moment they are not

:41:23. > :41:27.and they are being very glib So I don't think any of us will know

:41:28. > :41:32.where we are at the moment, but I do know that more and more

:41:33. > :41:36.people are saying that they will And I think, you know,

:41:37. > :41:39.to support what Greg was saying to some extent,

:41:40. > :41:42.that there is evidence already that inflation is beginning

:41:43. > :41:44.to increase quite significantly The fall in the value of the pound

:41:45. > :41:52.since the decision on Brexit. But, by and large, do you accept

:41:53. > :41:56.the economic meltdown you predicted on programmes like this

:41:57. > :41:57.has not happened? I never predicted an economic

:41:58. > :42:00.meltdown, but what I will say The value of the pound has fallen

:42:01. > :42:05.because of the decision. That is now showing itself

:42:06. > :42:08.in the shape of increased prices in the shops,

:42:09. > :42:11.and retail spending is beginning The indicators are beginning to show

:42:12. > :42:17.that there is trouble ahead for us, which is one of the reasons,

:42:18. > :42:20.I think, when the Chancellor has taken some of the decisions

:42:21. > :42:22.that he has taken. 60 billion into this part,

:42:23. > :42:25.when we don't have enough money for our schools,

:42:26. > :42:27.hospitals, and for social care. Trouble potentially ahead

:42:28. > :42:31.for the Government tomorrow, because the House of Lords'

:42:32. > :42:33.amendments go back to Are you predicting a significant

:42:34. > :42:39.rebellion tomorrow, Philip Davies? These are issues that have

:42:40. > :42:44.already been decided The Commons passed them quite

:42:45. > :42:47.comfortably last time. I think the House of Commons

:42:48. > :42:50.will reject the Lords' amendments tomorrow,

:42:51. > :42:53.and I hope and believe that, at that point,

:42:54. > :42:55.the House of Lords will say, we have done our bit,

:42:56. > :42:58.and we will cave in and... Theresa May's final Brexit deals,

:42:59. > :43:01.as Greg Mulholland suggests, should No, that has already been rejected

:43:02. > :43:06.by the House of Commons We don't know what the

:43:07. > :43:12.deal looks like yet. A second referendum has been

:43:13. > :43:14.rejected by both the House of Commons and House of Lords,

:43:15. > :43:17.so that is not going And there is no reason why these

:43:18. > :43:20.amendments will through. And yet, Philip, now,

:43:21. > :43:22.is very keen on that, when he wanted to let the people

:43:23. > :43:25.have their say, and now suddenly They have had to say

:43:26. > :43:30.in or out, Philip. People like the Lib Dems,

:43:31. > :43:33.they want to find any way to overturn the result by the back

:43:34. > :43:36.door, and it isn't going to happen. We have decided we

:43:37. > :43:38.are going to leave. No, but we need to trust the people

:43:39. > :43:41.do have a say on what happens We can't keep people voting

:43:42. > :43:45.and voting until you get the result you like,

:43:46. > :43:46.Greg. The anti-Europeans have been

:43:47. > :43:50.doing that for years. I am not saying a second

:43:51. > :43:53.in-out referendum. But if we trusted the people

:43:54. > :43:55.in the first place, when they actually see what it means

:43:56. > :43:59.and what the impact will be in all sorts of areas,

:44:00. > :44:01.then I think it's perfectly say, would they like to have

:44:02. > :44:05.a comment on what the Government You've lost the vote

:44:06. > :44:07.in the Lords and the Commons. I suspect you two are not

:44:08. > :44:10.going to agree with him on this Well, we have one by about two

:44:11. > :44:15.to one in this process a list. Now, do you remember that

:44:16. > :44:20.phrase the "Big Society" which was championed by last

:44:21. > :44:22.occupant of Ten Downing Street? Well, some would say the Big Society

:44:23. > :44:26.is alive and well thanks to an army of volunteers running services such

:44:27. > :44:28.as libraries and leisure facilities which have been

:44:29. > :44:30.cut back by councils. So, with more public

:44:31. > :44:32.spending cuts to come, is it time to resurrect the idea

:44:33. > :44:34.of people power The Big Society demands

:44:35. > :44:38.a big social response. It means millions of people

:44:39. > :44:45.answering that noble question asked by JFK,

:44:46. > :44:49.ask can not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do

:44:50. > :44:51.for your country. A bold statement from David Cameron

:44:52. > :44:55.back in 2010, but seven years on, Welcome to Lower Wharfedale

:44:56. > :45:02.in North Yorkshire, where volunteers I think it's very important

:45:03. > :45:06.that people put back. It sounds like a cliche,

:45:07. > :45:09.doesn't it, that he put back? The public footpath right-of-way

:45:10. > :45:12.network is very important, And we know that, you know, councils

:45:13. > :45:17.are suffering at the moment, but even when there were good times,

:45:18. > :45:21.we volunteered to help, because we believe that

:45:22. > :45:23.the right-of-way network is vitally Richard is just one of more

:45:24. > :45:30.than 20,000 people across Yorkshire and Lincolnshire, giving

:45:31. > :45:33.up their time and volunteering Our authorities have

:45:34. > :45:38.had their budgets cut by ?2 billion since 2010,

:45:39. > :45:41.and some may ask, is There is a lot of talk

:45:42. > :45:47.about volunteers taking over and running libraries and so on,

:45:48. > :45:50.and in some part of some cities, like Sheffield, if a library

:45:51. > :45:53.is closed that is a real problem for some of the poorest and most

:45:54. > :45:56.vulnerable people, so it is quite... There is a balance

:45:57. > :45:58.to be struck, I guess. Council cuts meant the closure

:45:59. > :46:00.of Stocksbridge leisure Centre near Sheffield,

:46:01. > :46:04.but it was saved by a group of very dedicated people,

:46:05. > :46:06.and now runs as a community leisure centre with a mix of paid staff

:46:07. > :46:12.and at least 40 volunteers. If I didn't come here,

:46:13. > :46:19.I don't know what I'd be doing. We all volunteer because we are

:46:20. > :46:23.passionate about it. The people that come here,

:46:24. > :46:25.they are providing a friendly atmosphere, where everybody

:46:26. > :46:27.appreciates everything that It gets me out of bed in the morning

:46:28. > :46:35.and keeps me fit and healthy. Many giving up their time

:46:36. > :46:38.are retired, and, as the working age increases, there are concerns

:46:39. > :46:43.about future volunteer levels. Traditionally, volunteers tended

:46:44. > :46:47.to be people that have retired. They have got lots of skills,

:46:48. > :46:50.lots of time on their hands, and they want to feel part

:46:51. > :46:53.of the community and give something back, which is great,

:46:54. > :46:55.but how long can we, And so it's a concern,

:46:56. > :47:01.so we try always to think of how we can, sort of,

:47:02. > :47:06.bring younger people in and get Three days of paid volunteering

:47:07. > :47:09.leave was pledged by I think one of the challenges

:47:10. > :47:18.is how they make it work. I don't think the Government is ever

:47:19. > :47:21.going to say to an employer, you must free people up for three

:47:22. > :47:25.days to make this work, so I think it's always going to be

:47:26. > :47:28.something which was around encouragement and carrots

:47:29. > :47:31.rather than sticks. The concern is that

:47:32. > :47:33.unless the Government backs up its pledge,

:47:34. > :47:35.community groups will be left to pick up the pieces with

:47:36. > :47:43.a diminishing pool of volunteers. That was Sarah Urwen

:47:44. > :47:44.reporting there. So, Greg Mulholland,

:47:45. > :47:47.is this really a vindication of what David Cameron

:47:48. > :47:49.always wanted - communities coming together,

:47:50. > :47:52.not relying on the state? Well, the first thing to say,

:47:53. > :47:55.and I am sure we would all absolutely agree,

:47:56. > :47:57.is to pay tribute to all of the wonderful

:47:58. > :47:59.volunteers that we saw there, and the many that we know personally

:48:00. > :48:02.who are in our own constituencies. But let's face it, the Big Society

:48:03. > :48:05.was a fairly vacuous idea. It was one that David Cameron hoped

:48:06. > :48:08.to be remembered by. Instead he is being remembered

:48:09. > :48:10.as the person who foolishly gambled on trying to placate his

:48:11. > :48:14.backbenchers and lost over Brexit. But we need to have a serious

:48:15. > :48:17.debate about many things, because the fact is we have a social

:48:18. > :48:21.care system in crisis, which has been something that has

:48:22. > :48:24.been an elephant in the room I'm pleased to say the coalition

:48:25. > :48:30.came forward with something of a plan, which the Conservatives

:48:31. > :48:32.dropped as soon as But we will not be able to have

:48:33. > :48:36.volunteers if we keep seeing the state pension age rise,

:48:37. > :48:41.as people are busy, but I can certainly tell you that having

:48:42. > :48:44.volunteers will not deal with the social care crisis

:48:45. > :48:47.or the state of the NHS, and that needs, frankly,

:48:48. > :48:50.a proper review. And that's why I back having

:48:51. > :48:53.a cross-party convention to discuss the future of the NHS

:48:54. > :48:55.and social care. Do you accept in some areas

:48:56. > :49:00.volunteers actually have been probably more successful in running

:49:01. > :49:02.services than the council? I mean, I think the point made

:49:03. > :49:07.in the package by Neil Cleeveley I want to pay tribute

:49:08. > :49:10.to the volunteers as well. One of those sets of volunteers

:49:11. > :49:13.is at Stocksbridge leisure Centre in my constituency,

:49:14. > :49:15.and they have done a great job I don't think it really ever should

:49:16. > :49:21.have been closed, but it was, And equally, in Penistone,

:49:22. > :49:27.the same thing has happened I have, however, a community-run

:49:28. > :49:31.library as well in Ecclesfield, and they equally have done

:49:32. > :49:33.a great job. But libraries provide

:49:34. > :49:37.a statutory service, and I have a real worry

:49:38. > :49:42.that we will lose professional skills in the very long-term,

:49:43. > :49:48.librarianship in the context When it comes to social care,

:49:49. > :49:51.as Greg has pointed out, and health care, we have got to find

:49:52. > :49:54.the right balance between the role of the state and the statutory role,

:49:55. > :49:58.and the very important role that nurses and doctors play

:49:59. > :50:01.in delivering the service. And the role of volunteers

:50:02. > :50:04.in supporting the professionals There is a balance, but,

:50:05. > :50:09.at the moment, there is a real All right, let me ask

:50:10. > :50:13.Philip Davies, just how far can OK, you can get volunteers to run

:50:14. > :50:17.libraries and to paint bus shelters, but, actually, when it comes

:50:18. > :50:20.to the really, really big things, like social care, there is no

:50:21. > :50:22.substitute for Government No, there are certain

:50:23. > :50:27.things that have to be run by the state, obviously,

:50:28. > :50:30.the NHS being a prime example. I don't think anybody

:50:31. > :50:32.is suggesting otherwise. We have got to remember,

:50:33. > :50:37.back in 2010, the Government were spending ?600 billion a year,

:50:38. > :50:41.roughly, and it was borrowing ?165 billion a year to spend

:50:42. > :50:45.?600 billion a year. We can't carry on like that,

:50:46. > :50:48.so we had to find a way of scaling There is no painless way out

:50:49. > :50:55.of that kind of debt. And so we had to find

:50:56. > :50:57.a way where we actually scaled back what the state

:50:58. > :51:00.were spending its money on, and we need to focus on the things

:51:01. > :51:03.that only the state can do, So, what more would you personally

:51:04. > :51:08.cut that hasn't been cut already? Well, overseas aid is a thing that

:51:09. > :51:11.I would particularly like to cut. It was ?8 billion in 2010

:51:12. > :51:18.and it is now ?12 billion. It will be ?16 billion in 2020

:51:19. > :51:20.and that is a luxury Well...

:51:21. > :51:24.Like free schools? I think free schools,

:51:25. > :51:29.there is a one in a million school in Bradford, free school,

:51:30. > :51:32.helping lots of deprived kids, But a 9 billion overspend?

:51:33. > :51:36.A 9 billion overspend? The money we should be

:51:37. > :51:40.saving is on overseas aid. The free schools in my constituency,

:51:41. > :51:44.I have got one, and it enjoys a much better funding deal than the other

:51:45. > :51:47.schools in my area. It has already been calculated that

:51:48. > :51:51.just to avoid emergency situations and to deal with emergency

:51:52. > :51:57.situations in terms of maintenance, And yet, the budget gives ?1 billion

:51:58. > :52:02.in capital for the building If we haven't got the money now,

:52:03. > :52:06.to maintain our current school buildings, then how on earth

:52:07. > :52:09.is the Government going to find the money to build ?1 billion worth

:52:10. > :52:13.of grammar schools and free schools? Let's get some more of the week's

:52:14. > :52:16.political news now. Our 60-second round-up is voiced

:52:17. > :52:28.by the legend that is Len Tingle. This week's Prime Minister's

:52:29. > :52:30.Question Time, and Batley's Tracy Brabin asked why it's so difficult

:52:31. > :52:32.to get compensation for an 11-year-old damaged

:52:33. > :52:38.by inoculation against swine flu. Will the Prime Minister today

:52:39. > :52:41.promise that no more of these disabled children will be hounded

:52:42. > :52:45.through the courts? Later, a conservative celebration of

:52:46. > :52:48.what was International Women's Day from Louth and Horncastle's

:52:49. > :52:52.Victoria Atkins. International Women's Day

:52:53. > :52:55.is a chance to reflect on how governments and democracies

:52:56. > :53:00.across the world serve women. Will my right honourable friend

:53:01. > :53:03.confirm that when it comes to female Prime Ministers,

:53:04. > :53:07.it's two-nil to the Conservatives? But outside the chamber,

:53:08. > :53:10.not much joy for these women - as flagged up in last week's

:53:11. > :53:13.Sunday Politics, a protest against seeing state

:53:14. > :53:17.pension age raised to 66, but not a word about

:53:18. > :53:19.it in the budget. And William - now Lord -

:53:20. > :53:21.Hague hit the headlines. He wants the Minister to call

:53:22. > :53:24.an early general election. OK, so we heard about

:53:25. > :53:33.International Women's Day. Let them speak to a member

:53:34. > :53:35.of Parliament's Women How did you mark

:53:36. > :53:45.International Women's Day? The Prime Minister,

:53:46. > :53:48.who was doing a fantastic job. In fact, I think two of our finest

:53:49. > :53:51.Prime ministers have both been female prime ministers,

:53:52. > :53:53.so Victoria was absolutely right. It goes to show that rather

:53:54. > :53:56.than just talking about it, we get on with it, and I think,

:53:57. > :54:01.as Mrs Thatcher once said, if you want something said,

:54:02. > :54:04.ask a man, and if you want What do you make of him

:54:05. > :54:08.being on this committee? Well, Phil is entitled to be

:54:09. > :54:12.a member of that committee, and I will leave it at that,

:54:13. > :54:15.but what I will say about women in Parliament is that, actually,

:54:16. > :54:19.we may not have had a woman leader in the Labour Party,

:54:20. > :54:21.but we have produced more women MPs then all of the other parties put

:54:22. > :54:36.together and more. So we have got the best record by

:54:37. > :54:39.far on this. We do need to have, I think, a woman leader sometime soon

:54:40. > :54:44.and that is essential. Or would that be?

:54:45. > :54:51.I would not put money on anybody, but my point is, an important point,

:54:52. > :54:54.it is Labour who have provided the backbone of women's representation

:54:55. > :54:58.in parliament. We have the best record and I am proud of my party

:54:59. > :55:04.record on that. A serious point, because Philip

:55:05. > :55:08.Davies pushed for Parliament to discuss International Men's Day, was

:55:09. > :55:12.that a right decision for him to do? Philip will make his own decisions.

:55:13. > :55:18.We must discuss issues of importance for women and issues of importance

:55:19. > :55:22.for men, that must be the case. There are issues serious unserious

:55:23. > :55:27.campaigns, that were highlighted with International Women's Day, and

:55:28. > :55:30.I am delighted to support them. I agree with Andrew, I don't know

:55:31. > :55:36.about Philip... But a lot more needs to be done about certain equality.

:55:37. > :55:45.Equality issues in the workplace, and in terms of pay. I went to come

:55:46. > :55:51.on Thursday night, a town hall in my constituency, to see a performance

:55:52. > :55:57.of made in Dagenham. It shows that although progress has been made,

:55:58. > :56:01.there is still work to be done... People turning into Elaine Paige on

:56:02. > :56:05.Sunday. An important political issue as well

:56:06. > :56:09.Briefly, William Hague wants a snap Briefly, William Hague wants a snap

:56:10. > :56:12.election, should it and will it happen?

:56:13. > :56:15.No and no. Angela Smith?

:56:16. > :56:19.Remain open minded as to whether or not they will be another election,

:56:20. > :56:22.because everything is volatile, but who knows what will happen next? I

:56:23. > :56:25.am ready for an election at any time.

:56:26. > :56:30.Are you ready? I am always ready for an election,

:56:31. > :56:36.Tim. The idea that a prim minister on a whim or for cynical political

:56:37. > :56:40.reason could cause all the turbulence of election, is nonsense.

:56:41. > :56:44.-- a Prime Minister. Turbulent times for the country at the moment, so

:56:45. > :56:45.that must be the priority rather than cynically wondering about

:56:46. > :56:48.whether it might be the right moment whether it might be the right moment

:56:49. > :56:53.for a Conservative Prime Minister to go to the polls. We have serious

:56:54. > :56:57.issues to deal with for the country. And the price of a pint of beer

:56:58. > :57:01.going up by 2p tomorrow. You have the rest of today to fill your

:57:02. > :57:02.boots. Not that we encourage binge drinking. They give all of your

:57:03. > :57:15.thoughts. Now the government plans for new

:57:16. > :57:18.grammar schools. The Education Secretary

:57:19. > :57:19.Justine Greening was speaking to a conference

:57:20. > :57:21.of headteachers on Friday. They're normally a pretty polite

:57:22. > :57:23.bunch, but they didn't Broadcasters weren't

:57:24. > :57:30.allowed into the speech, but this was captured

:57:31. > :57:35.on a camera phone. And we have to recognise actually

:57:36. > :57:38.for grammars, in terms of disadvantaged children,

:57:39. > :57:41.that they have, they really do help them close

:57:42. > :57:44.the attainment gap. And at the same time

:57:45. > :57:46.we should recognise that ..That parents also want choice

:57:47. > :57:53.for their children and that those schools are often

:57:54. > :58:08.very oversubscribed. I suppose it is a rite of passage

:58:09. > :58:12.for and education secretaries to have this at a head teachers

:58:13. > :58:17.conference book the head are usually more polite. Isn't part of the

:58:18. > :58:23.problem, whether one is for or against the expansion of grammar

:58:24. > :58:26.schools, the government plans are complicated, you cannot sum them up

:58:27. > :58:31.in a sentence. The proof of that is they can still get away with denying

:58:32. > :58:34.they are expanding grammar schools. They will find an alternative

:58:35. > :58:38.formulation because it is not as simple as a brute creation of what

:58:39. > :58:44.we used to know is grammar schools with the absolute cut-off of the 11

:58:45. > :58:48.plus. I am surprised how easy they found it politically. We saw the

:58:49. > :58:52.clip of Justine Greening being jeered a little bit but in the grand

:58:53. > :58:56.scheme, compared to another government trying this idea a decade

:58:57. > :59:01.ago they have got away with it easily and I think what is happening

:59:02. > :59:05.is a perverse consequence of Brexit and the media attention on Brexit,

:59:06. > :59:09.the government of the day can just about get away with slightly more

:59:10. > :59:14.contentious domestic policies on the correct assumption we will be too

:59:15. > :59:18.busy investing our attention in Article 50 and two years of

:59:19. > :59:24.negotiations, WTO terms at everything we have been discussing.

:59:25. > :59:26.I wonder if after grammar schools there will be examples of

:59:27. > :59:31.contentious domestic policies Theresa May can slide in stock

:59:32. > :59:39.because Brexit sucks the life out, takes the attention away. You are a

:59:40. > :59:45.supporter. Broadly. Are you happy with the government approach? They

:59:46. > :59:50.need to have more gumption and stop being apologetic. It is a bazaar

:59:51. > :59:55.area of public policy where we judge the policy on grammar schools based

:59:56. > :59:59.on what it does for children whose parents are unemployed, living on

:00:00. > :00:04.sink estates in Liverpool. It is absurd, we don't judge any other

:00:05. > :00:08.policy like that. It is simple, not contentious, people who are not

:00:09. > :00:12.sure, ask them if they would apply to send their child there, six out

:00:13. > :00:18.of ten said they would. Parents want good schools for their children, we

:00:19. > :00:21.should have appropriate education and they should be straightforward,

:00:22. > :00:25.this is about the future of the economy and we need bright children

:00:26. > :00:31.to get education at the highest level, education for academically

:00:32. > :00:35.bright children. It is supposed to be a signature policy of the Theresa

:00:36. > :00:38.May administration that marks a government different from David

:00:39. > :00:40.Cameron's government who did not go down this road. The signature is

:00:41. > :00:50.pretty blurred, it is hard to read. It is. She is trying to address

:00:51. > :00:53.concerns about those who fail to get into these selective schools and

:00:54. > :00:57.tried to targeted in poorer areas and the rest of it. She will

:00:58. > :01:01.probably come across so many obstacles. It is not clear what form

:01:02. > :01:05.it will take in the end. It is really an example of a signature

:01:06. > :01:08.policy not fully thought through. I think it was one of her first

:01:09. > :01:12.announcements. It was. It surprised everybody. Surprised at the speed

:01:13. > :01:17.and pace at which they were planning to go. Ever since, there have been

:01:18. > :01:22.qualifications and hesitations en route with good cause, in my view. I

:01:23. > :01:26.disagree with Juliet that this is... We all want good schools but if you

:01:27. > :01:30.don't get in there and you end up in a less good school. They already do

:01:31. > :01:34.that. We have selection based on the income of parents getting into a

:01:35. > :01:39.good catchment area, based on the faith of the parents. That becomes

:01:40. > :01:42.very attainable! I might been too shot run christenings for these. --

:01:43. > :01:44.I have been. Now, you may remember this time last

:01:45. > :01:47.week we were talking about the extraordinary claims by US

:01:48. > :01:49.President Donald Trump, on Twitter of course,

:01:50. > :01:52.that Barack Obama had ordered And there was me thinking

:01:53. > :01:55.that wiretaps went out Is it legal for a sitting

:01:56. > :02:00.President to do so, he asked, concluding it was a "new low",

:02:01. > :02:09.and later comparing it to Watergate. Since then, the White House has been

:02:10. > :02:12.pressed to provide evidence for this It hasn't, but it seems it may have

:02:13. > :02:18.initially come from a report on a US website by the former Conservative

:02:19. > :02:21.MP Louise Mensch. She wrote that the FBI had been

:02:22. > :02:24.granted a warrant to intercept communications between Trump's

:02:25. > :02:31.campaign and Russia. Well, Louise Mensch joins

:02:32. > :02:44.us now from New York. Louise, you claimed in early

:02:45. > :02:47.November that the FBI had secured a court warrants to monitor

:02:48. > :02:53.communications between trump Tower in New York at two Russian banks.

:02:54. > :02:54.It's now four months later. Isn't it the case that nobody has proved the

:02:55. > :03:04.existence of this warrant? First of all, forgive me Andrew, one

:03:05. > :03:08.takes 1's life in one's hand when it is you but I have to correct your

:03:09. > :03:11.characterisation of my reporting. It is very important. I did not report

:03:12. > :03:17.that the FBI had a warrant to intercept anything or that Trump

:03:18. > :03:20.tower was any part of it. What I reported was that the FBI obtained a

:03:21. > :03:25.warrant is targeted on all communications between two Russian

:03:26. > :03:32.banks and were, therefore, allowed to examine US persons in the context

:03:33. > :03:35.of their investigation. What the Americans call legally incidental

:03:36. > :03:41.collection. I certainly didn't report that the warrant was able to

:03:42. > :03:45.intercept or that it had location basis, for example Trump tower. I

:03:46. > :03:50.just didn't report that. The reason that matters so much is that I now

:03:51. > :03:55.believe based on the President's reaction, there may well be a

:03:56. > :03:58.wiretap act Trump Tower. If so, Donald Trump has just tweeted out

:03:59. > :04:02.evidence in an ongoing criminal case that neither I nor anybody else

:04:03. > :04:06.reported. He is right about Watergate because he will have

:04:07. > :04:10.committed obstruction of justice directly from his Twitter account.

:04:11. > :04:16.Let me come back as thank you for clarifying. Let me come back to the

:04:17. > :04:21.question. -- and thank you. We have not yet got proof that this warrant

:04:22. > :04:25.exists, do we? No and we are most unlikely to get it because it would

:04:26. > :04:29.be a heinous crime for Donald Trump to reveal its existence. In America

:04:30. > :04:33.they call it a Glomar response. I can neither confirm nor deny. That

:04:34. > :04:37.is what all American officials will have to say legally. If you are

:04:38. > :04:41.looking for proof, you won't get it until and unless a court cases

:04:42. > :04:47.brought. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The BBC validated

:04:48. > :04:51.this two months after me in their reporting by the journalist Paul

:04:52. > :04:54.Wood. The Guardian, they also separately from their own sources

:04:55. > :04:58.validated the existence of the warrant. If you are in America, you

:04:59. > :05:02.would know that CNN and others are reporting that the investigation in

:05:03. > :05:06.ongoing. Let me come onto the wider point. You believe the Trump

:05:07. > :05:10.campaign including the president were complicit with the Russians

:05:11. > :05:14.during the 2016 election campaign to such an extent that Mr Trump should

:05:15. > :05:20.be impeached. What evidence did you have?

:05:21. > :05:25.That is an enormous amount of evidence. You could start with him

:05:26. > :05:28.saying, hey, Russia, if you are listening, please release all the

:05:29. > :05:33.Hillary Clinton's e-mails. That's not evidence. I think it rather is,

:05:34. > :05:36.actually. Especially if you look at some of the evidence that exists on

:05:37. > :05:41.Twitter and elsewhere of people talking directly to his social media

:05:42. > :05:45.manager, Dan should be no and telling him to do that before it

:05:46. > :05:50.happened. There is a bit out there. The BBC itself reported that in

:05:51. > :05:53.April of last year, a six agency task force, not just the FBI, but

:05:54. > :05:58.the Treasury Department, was looking at this. I believe there is an

:05:59. > :06:01.enormous amount of evidence. And then there is the steel dossier

:06:02. > :06:09.which was included in an official report of the US intelligence

:06:10. > :06:12.committee. You've also ... Just to be clear, we don't have hard

:06:13. > :06:16.evidence yet whether this warrant exists. It may or may not. There is

:06:17. > :06:20.doubt about... There are claims about whether there is evidence

:06:21. > :06:25.about Mr Trump and the Russians. That is another matter. You claimed

:06:26. > :06:32.that President Putin had Andrew Breitbart murdered to pave the way

:06:33. > :06:36.for Steve Bannon to play a key role in the Trump administration. I

:06:37. > :06:40.haven't. You said that Steve Bannon is behind bomb threats to Jewish

:06:41. > :06:45.community centres. Aren't you in danger of just peddling wild

:06:46. > :06:49.conspiracy theories? No. Festival, I haven't. No matter how many times

:06:50. > :06:53.people say this, it's not going to be true -- first of all. I said in

:06:54. > :06:57.twitter I believe that to be the case about the murder of Andrew

:06:58. > :07:03.Breitbart. You believe President Putin murdered him. I didn't! You

:07:04. > :07:07.said I reported it, but I believed it. You put it on twitter that you

:07:08. > :07:13.believed it but you don't have a shred of evidence. I do. Indeed, I

:07:14. > :07:17.know made assertions. What is the evidence that Mr Putin murdered

:07:18. > :07:23.Andrew Breitbart? I said I believe it. You may believe there are

:07:24. > :07:27.fairies at the bottom of your garden, it doesn't make it true. I

:07:28. > :07:35.may indeed. And if I say so, that's my belief. If I say I am reporting,

:07:36. > :07:42.as I did with the Fisa warrant exists, I have a basis in fact. They

:07:43. > :07:48.believe is just a belief. I know you are relatively new to journalism.

:07:49. > :07:52.Let me get the rules right. Andrew, jealousy is not your colour... If it

:07:53. > :07:56.is twitter, we don't believe it but if it is on your website, we should

:07:57. > :08:01.believe it? If I report something and I say this happened, then I am

:08:02. > :08:06.making an assertion. If I describe a belief, I am describing a belief.

:08:07. > :08:10.Subtlety may be a little difficult for you... No, no. If you want to be

:08:11. > :08:17.a journalist, beliefs have to be backed up with evidence. Really? Do

:08:18. > :08:20.you have a faith? It's not a matter of faith, maybe in your case, that

:08:21. > :08:26.President Putin murdered Andrew Breitbart. A belief and a report at

:08:27. > :08:31.two different things and no matter how often you say that they are the

:08:32. > :08:35.same, they will never be the same. You've said in today's Sunday Times

:08:36. > :08:44.here in London that you've turned into" a temporary superpower" where

:08:45. > :08:48.you "See things really clearly". Have you become delusional? No. I am

:08:49. > :08:55.describing a biological basis for ADHD, which I have. As any of your

:08:56. > :08:57.viewers who are doctors will know. It provides people with

:08:58. > :09:00.unfortunately a lot of scattered focus, they are very messy and

:09:01. > :09:05.absent-minded but when they are interested in things and they have

:09:06. > :09:09.ADHD they can have a condition which is hyper focus. You concentrate very

:09:10. > :09:14.hard on a given subject and you can see patterns and connections. That

:09:15. > :09:19.is biological. Thank you for explaining that. And for getting up

:09:20. > :09:24.early in New York. The first time ever I have interviewed a temporary

:09:25. > :09:27.superpower. Thank you. You are so lucky! You are so lucky! I don't

:09:28. > :09:32.think it's going to happen again. Please don't ask us to comment on

:09:33. > :09:37.that interview! I will not ask you, viewers will make up their own

:09:38. > :09:38.minds. Let's come back to be more mundane world of Article 50. Stop

:09:39. > :09:46.the killing! Will it get through at the

:09:47. > :09:49.government wanted it? Without the Lords amendment falling by the way

:09:50. > :09:53.that? I am sure the Lord will not try to ping-pong this back and

:09:54. > :09:57.forth. So we are at the end of this particular legislative phase. The

:09:58. > :10:00.fact that all three Brexit Cabinet ministers, number ten often don't

:10:01. > :10:04.like one of them going out on a broadcast interview on a Sunday,

:10:05. > :10:07.they've all been out and about. That suggests to me they are working on

:10:08. > :10:12.the assumption it will be triggered this week. This week. The

:10:13. > :10:17.negotiations will begin or at least the process begins. The negotiation

:10:18. > :10:20.process may be difficult, given all of the European elections. The Dutch

:10:21. > :10:25.this week. And then the French and maybe the Italians and certainly the

:10:26. > :10:29.Germans by the end of September, which is less predictable than it

:10:30. > :10:34.was. Given all that, what did you make of Anna Soubry's claim, Viacom

:10:35. > :10:39.on her part, that we may just end up crashing out in six months question

:10:40. > :10:45.-- fear on her part. It was not just that that we made that deliberately

:10:46. > :10:48.organising. I want us to get on with the deals.

:10:49. > :10:55.Everyone knows a good deal is the best option. Who knows what is going

:10:56. > :10:58.to be on the table when we finally go out? Fascinatingly, the demand

:10:59. > :11:04.for some money back, given the amount of money... Net gains and net

:11:05. > :11:11.costs in terms of us leaving for the EU. It is all to play for. That will

:11:12. > :11:14.be a possible early grounds for a confrontation between the UK and the

:11:15. > :11:20.EU. My understanding is that they expect to do a deal on reciprocal

:11:21. > :11:23.rights of EU nationals, EU nationals here, UK citizens there, quite

:11:24. > :11:28.quickly. They want to clear that up and that will be done. Then they

:11:29. > :11:31.will hit this problem that the EU will be saying you've got to agree

:11:32. > :11:36.the divorce Bill first before we talk about the free trade bill.

:11:37. > :11:40.David Davis saying quite clearly, no, they go together because of the

:11:41. > :11:45.size of the bill. It will be determined, in our part, by how good

:11:46. > :11:49.the access will be. The mutual recognition of EU residents' rights

:11:50. > :11:52.is no trouble. A huge amount of fuss is attracted to that subject but it

:11:53. > :11:56.is the easiest thing to deal with, as is free movement for tourists.

:11:57. > :11:59.Money is what will make it incredibly acrimonious. Incredibly

:12:00. > :12:04.quickly. I imagine the dominant story in the summer will be all

:12:05. > :12:06.about that. This was Anna Soubry's implication, members of the

:12:07. > :12:10.governors could strongly argue, things are so poisonous and so

:12:11. > :12:14.unpleasant at the moment, the dealers are advancing -- members of

:12:15. > :12:20.the government. Why not call it a day and go out on WTO terms while

:12:21. > :12:23.public opinion is still in that direction in that Eurosceptic

:12:24. > :12:27.direction? No buyers' remorse about last year's referendum. The longer

:12:28. > :12:30.they leave it, view more opportunity there is for some kind of public

:12:31. > :12:35.resistance and change of mind to take place. The longer believe it,

:12:36. > :12:39.the more people who voted for Brexit and people who voted Remain and

:12:40. > :12:42.think we didn't get world War three will start being quite angry with

:12:43. > :12:47.the EU for not agreeing a deal. In terms of the rights of EU nationals

:12:48. > :12:52.he and Brits abroad, by all accounts, 26 of the 27 have agreed

:12:53. > :12:55.individually. Angela Merkel is the only person who has held that up.

:12:56. > :13:00.That will be dealt with in a matter of days. The chances of a deal being

:13:01. > :13:05.done is likely but in ten seconds... It would not be a bad bet to protect

:13:06. > :13:09.your on something not happening, you might get pretty good odds? The odds

:13:10. > :13:15.are going up that a deal doesn't happen. But, as I said earlier, the

:13:16. > :13:19.House of Commons will not endorse no deal. We are either in an early

:13:20. > :13:24.election or she has to go back again. Either way, you will need us!

:13:25. > :13:28.We will be back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two ahead of what looks like

:13:29. > :13:29.being a big week in politics. We will be back here same time, same

:13:30. > :13:32.place. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:33. > :14:37.it's the Sunday Politics. They're calling it an

:14:38. > :14:44.entertainment extravaganza audience fun and frolics

:14:45. > :14:49.and outrageous shenanigans. And I don't even know what

:14:50. > :14:52.those HONK words mean.