:00:41. > :00:44.It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:45. > :00:47.The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,
:00:48. > :00:49.but do the security services have the resources and
:00:50. > :00:52.We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.
:00:53. > :00:56.As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of
:00:57. > :01:02.Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power
:01:03. > :01:05.Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job
:01:06. > :01:16.In Yorkshire, and Lincolnshire, and the party's
:01:17. > :01:20.In Yorkshire, and Lincolnshire, after Westminster, is it time to
:01:21. > :01:27.look at the Government's and de-radicalisation strategy,
:01:28. > :01:30.And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political
:01:31. > :01:33.panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee
:01:34. > :01:39.and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:40. > :01:41.First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack
:01:42. > :01:44.The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,
:01:45. > :01:47.but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 -
:01:48. > :01:51.one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.
:01:52. > :01:53.His target was the very heart of our democracy,
:01:54. > :01:56.the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres
:01:57. > :01:59.of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.
:02:00. > :02:03.Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's
:02:04. > :02:04.close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity
:02:05. > :02:13.at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.
:02:14. > :02:21.Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we
:02:22. > :02:25.be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary
:02:26. > :02:28.response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as
:02:29. > :02:33.prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive
:02:34. > :02:35.way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and
:02:36. > :02:40.national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to
:02:41. > :02:44.whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put
:02:45. > :02:50.more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor
:02:51. > :02:53.sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder
:02:54. > :02:58.whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around
:02:59. > :03:03.the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,
:03:04. > :03:07.as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on
:03:08. > :03:10.social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the
:03:11. > :03:17.attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to
:03:18. > :03:19.the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.
:03:20. > :03:25.Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while
:03:26. > :03:29.an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the
:03:30. > :03:32.weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the
:03:33. > :03:38.world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it
:03:39. > :03:43.stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for
:03:44. > :03:46.years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the
:03:47. > :03:52.chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,
:03:53. > :03:56.so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of
:03:57. > :04:01.London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that
:04:02. > :04:07.the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this
:04:08. > :04:13.is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think
:04:14. > :04:17.from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a
:04:18. > :04:22.poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to
:04:23. > :04:25.imagine the emergency services and local people, international
:04:26. > :04:32.visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our
:04:33. > :04:36.Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards
:04:37. > :04:40.shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.
:04:41. > :04:44.It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values
:04:45. > :04:46.that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.
:04:47. > :04:49.So, four days after the attack, what more do we know
:04:50. > :04:53.The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains
:04:54. > :04:58.Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.
:04:59. > :05:03.According to a police timeline, that's how long it took
:05:04. > :05:05.Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster
:05:06. > :05:12.to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...
:05:13. > :05:15.to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard
:05:16. > :05:26.The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.
:05:27. > :05:31.The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:
:05:32. > :05:34."We would like to express our gratitude to the people
:05:35. > :05:36.who were with Keith in his last moments and who were
:05:37. > :05:39.There was nothing more you could have done,
:05:40. > :05:42.you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."
:05:43. > :05:46.Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.
:05:47. > :05:49.Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp
:05:50. > :05:56.The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging
:05:57. > :06:01.There should be no place for terrorists to hide.
:06:02. > :06:04.We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,
:06:05. > :06:07.and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret
:06:08. > :06:10.place for terrorists to communicate with each other.
:06:11. > :06:14.It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just
:06:15. > :06:23.listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,
:06:24. > :06:25.legally, through warrantry, but in this situation
:06:26. > :06:27.we need to make sure that our intelligence services
:06:28. > :06:29.have the ability to get into situations like encrypted
:06:30. > :06:32.She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions
:06:33. > :06:35.at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out
:06:36. > :06:38.But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be
:06:39. > :06:47...not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.
:06:48. > :06:49.We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,
:06:50. > :06:55.the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.
:06:56. > :07:03.What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I
:07:04. > :07:06.can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,
:07:07. > :07:10.because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but
:07:11. > :07:14.to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80
:07:15. > :07:18.counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,
:07:19. > :07:22.using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the
:07:23. > :07:26.very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also
:07:27. > :07:29.tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring
:07:30. > :07:37.this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made
:07:38. > :07:40.available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do
:07:41. > :07:45.we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired
:07:46. > :07:48.or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being
:07:49. > :07:52.led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate
:07:53. > :07:58.on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the
:07:59. > :08:02.attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in
:08:03. > :08:05.Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin
:08:06. > :08:11.Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last
:08:12. > :08:16.year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved
:08:17. > :08:22.have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of
:08:23. > :08:26.them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians
:08:27. > :08:30.in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a
:08:31. > :08:33.gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of
:08:34. > :08:36.attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at
:08:37. > :08:41.least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.
:08:42. > :08:45.Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those
:08:46. > :08:49.involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is
:08:50. > :08:54.going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?
:08:55. > :08:59.Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least
:09:00. > :09:04.the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the
:09:05. > :09:09.only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see
:09:10. > :09:14.in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for
:09:15. > :09:19.example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the
:09:20. > :09:22.security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,
:09:23. > :09:28.Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that
:09:29. > :09:33.could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at
:09:34. > :09:37.least the first indications from what police are saying in London,
:09:38. > :09:42.these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of
:09:43. > :09:46.the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised
:09:47. > :09:51.community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a
:09:52. > :09:55.dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised
:09:56. > :09:59.individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult
:10:00. > :10:03.when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that
:10:04. > :10:08.they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the
:10:09. > :10:11.work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices
:10:12. > :10:15.that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home
:10:16. > :10:21.Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps
:10:22. > :10:25.like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they
:10:26. > :10:28.encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services
:10:29. > :10:34.to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for
:10:35. > :10:39.that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years
:10:40. > :10:43.there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are
:10:44. > :10:47.becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more
:10:48. > :10:50.and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,
:10:51. > :10:54.and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the
:10:55. > :10:58.ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not
:10:59. > :11:03.when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,
:11:04. > :11:07.for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have
:11:08. > :11:10.to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of
:11:11. > :11:13.these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a
:11:14. > :11:20.more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is
:11:21. > :11:26.certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying
:11:27. > :11:33.to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree
:11:34. > :11:37.certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative
:11:38. > :11:41.solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide
:11:42. > :11:46.but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done
:11:47. > :11:48.to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of
:11:49. > :11:53.communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our
:11:54. > :11:55.lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.
:11:56. > :11:58.Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House
:11:59. > :12:06.What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of
:12:07. > :12:08.Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very
:12:09. > :12:17.courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to
:12:18. > :12:23.be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident
:12:24. > :12:26.of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but
:12:27. > :12:32.also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already
:12:33. > :12:38.under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and
:12:39. > :12:47.security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get
:12:48. > :12:50.reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary
:12:51. > :12:53.security director, and just as security matters in parliament are
:12:54. > :12:57.kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as
:12:58. > :13:01.a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the
:13:02. > :13:06.issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling
:13:07. > :13:09.events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their
:13:10. > :13:15.lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is
:13:16. > :13:18.it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,
:13:19. > :13:24.where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening
:13:25. > :13:29.for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led
:13:30. > :13:36.to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last
:13:37. > :13:39.couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have
:13:40. > :13:44.actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would
:13:45. > :13:48.expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security
:13:49. > :13:53.matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at
:13:54. > :13:58.all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the
:13:59. > :14:03.security authorities and in particular for the police and direct
:14:04. > :14:09.command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it
:14:10. > :14:14.because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers
:14:15. > :14:18.this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no
:14:19. > :14:21.position to comment on the details of the operation but my
:14:22. > :14:26.understanding is that the number of people available is what the police
:14:27. > :14:30.and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and
:14:31. > :14:36.that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it
:14:37. > :14:42.not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left
:14:43. > :14:46.unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so
:14:47. > :14:52.that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able
:14:53. > :14:58.to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that
:14:59. > :15:03.case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't
:15:04. > :15:05.yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody
:15:06. > :15:11.involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who
:15:12. > :15:17.was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.
:15:18. > :15:20.We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were
:15:21. > :15:26.concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the
:15:27. > :15:31.attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with
:15:32. > :15:35.a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it
:15:36. > :15:40.is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be
:15:41. > :15:44.pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.
:15:45. > :15:48.To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the
:15:49. > :15:52.witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what
:15:53. > :15:55.happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any
:15:56. > :16:00.changes need to be made in light of that.
:16:01. > :16:08.We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence
:16:09. > :16:13.Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced
:16:14. > :16:18.the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details
:16:19. > :16:21.but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have
:16:22. > :16:27.been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has
:16:28. > :16:32.been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a
:16:33. > :16:37.so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the
:16:38. > :16:46.Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this
:16:47. > :16:51.simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that
:16:52. > :16:59.is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader
:17:00. > :17:05.of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals
:17:06. > :17:10.who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by
:17:11. > :17:15.the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in
:17:16. > :17:20.public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been
:17:21. > :17:23.reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it
:17:24. > :17:30.raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions
:17:31. > :17:37.should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are
:17:38. > :17:41.kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both
:17:42. > :17:46.in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the
:17:47. > :17:51.palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the
:17:52. > :17:57.perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was
:17:58. > :18:02.a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at
:18:03. > :18:14.carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed
:18:15. > :18:19.guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to
:18:20. > :18:23.look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.
:18:24. > :18:27.There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't
:18:28. > :18:31.know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will
:18:32. > :18:37.find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If
:18:38. > :18:41.you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to
:18:42. > :18:46.be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed
:18:47. > :18:51.accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about
:18:52. > :18:55.lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is
:18:56. > :18:58.important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview
:18:59. > :19:03.of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered
:19:04. > :19:09.view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will
:19:10. > :19:13.be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins
:19:14. > :19:19.our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on
:19:20. > :19:22.Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper
:19:23. > :19:28.that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's
:19:29. > :19:35.not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts
:19:36. > :19:39.of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the
:19:40. > :19:45.commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime
:19:46. > :19:50.Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has
:19:51. > :19:55.been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It
:19:56. > :20:03.doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational
:20:04. > :20:06.mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an
:20:07. > :20:13.agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies
:20:14. > :20:16.that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police
:20:17. > :20:21.cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all
:20:22. > :20:26.countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it
:20:27. > :20:33.will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?
:20:34. > :20:37.Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context
:20:38. > :20:42.of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the
:20:43. > :20:47.departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply
:20:48. > :20:52.not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a
:20:53. > :20:55.discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we
:20:56. > :21:00.all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we
:21:01. > :21:02.will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is
:21:03. > :21:19.possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The
:21:20. > :21:21.question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the
:21:22. > :21:24.subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?
:21:25. > :21:29.Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have
:21:30. > :21:34.to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate
:21:35. > :21:38.the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once
:21:39. > :21:44.David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the
:21:45. > :21:49.national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady
:21:50. > :21:54.progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good
:21:55. > :22:02.piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a
:22:03. > :22:06.substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out
:22:07. > :22:11.some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU
:22:12. > :22:18.programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50
:22:19. > :22:24.billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So
:22:25. > :22:29.50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get
:22:30. > :22:34.into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting
:22:35. > :22:42.very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum
:22:43. > :22:46.there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of
:22:47. > :22:50.separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find
:22:51. > :23:01.out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The
:23:02. > :23:07.Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which
:23:08. > :23:11.is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision
:23:12. > :23:15.of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in
:23:16. > :23:20.a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity
:23:21. > :23:23.and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the
:23:24. > :23:29.Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on
:23:30. > :23:33.Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will
:23:34. > :23:39.see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine
:23:40. > :23:44.thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII
:23:45. > :23:50.powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to
:23:51. > :23:57.avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities
:23:58. > :24:01.Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory
:24:02. > :24:08.footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those
:24:09. > :24:15.EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another
:24:16. > :24:20.regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to
:24:21. > :24:31.have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European
:24:32. > :24:36.regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come
:24:37. > :24:41.in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those
:24:42. > :24:44.powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the
:24:45. > :24:49.parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And
:24:50. > :24:55.if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the
:24:56. > :24:58.Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary
:24:59. > :25:03.legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the
:25:04. > :25:08.constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill
:25:09. > :25:12.and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House
:25:13. > :25:18.of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those
:25:19. > :25:23.powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.
:25:24. > :25:25.David Lidington, thank you for being with us.
:25:26. > :25:27.So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.
:25:28. > :25:29.He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party
:25:30. > :25:31.almost three years ago, but yesterday announced
:25:32. > :25:33.that he was quitting to sit as an independent.
:25:34. > :25:35.His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,
:25:36. > :25:38."Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".
:25:39. > :25:42.But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell
:25:43. > :25:44.criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as
:25:45. > :25:49.Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage
:25:50. > :25:51.was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell
:25:52. > :25:58.opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.
:25:59. > :25:59.Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage
:26:00. > :26:02.accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances
:26:03. > :26:04.of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,
:26:05. > :26:11.Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,
:26:12. > :26:14.Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.
:26:15. > :26:17.Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have
:26:18. > :26:20.decided that I will be leaving Ukip."
:26:21. > :26:22.When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014
:26:23. > :26:25.he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.
:26:26. > :26:28."I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring
:26:29. > :26:36.This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.
:26:37. > :26:43.We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.
:26:44. > :26:52.Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your
:26:53. > :26:58.only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at
:26:59. > :27:03.a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not
:27:04. > :27:08.surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the
:27:09. > :27:11.past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage
:27:12. > :27:16.certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime
:27:17. > :27:19.which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had
:27:20. > :27:23.done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering
:27:24. > :27:31.over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a
:27:32. > :27:34.more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he
:27:35. > :27:37.expected to be pushed out your national executive committee
:27:38. > :27:40.tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to
:27:41. > :27:45.answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the
:27:46. > :27:52.last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue
:27:53. > :27:56.surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came
:27:57. > :28:01.out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to
:28:02. > :28:09.answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did
:28:10. > :28:13.jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out
:28:14. > :28:21.of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear
:28:22. > :28:26.is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the
:28:27. > :28:31.party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,
:28:32. > :28:36.you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a
:28:37. > :28:43.pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,
:28:44. > :28:59.doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to
:29:00. > :29:04.rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over
:29:05. > :29:07.the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will
:29:08. > :29:11.rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have
:29:12. > :29:17.a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post
:29:18. > :29:21.Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he
:29:22. > :29:25.said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the
:29:26. > :29:31.skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't
:29:32. > :29:37.it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November
:29:38. > :29:40.the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the
:29:41. > :29:44.party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem
:29:45. > :29:50.money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look
:29:51. > :29:54.forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit
:29:55. > :30:01.test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have
:30:02. > :30:04.been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you
:30:05. > :30:10.will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,
:30:11. > :30:15.not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,
:30:16. > :30:20.he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that
:30:21. > :30:23.but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for
:30:24. > :30:34.the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be
:30:35. > :30:39.interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster
:30:40. > :30:43.attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's
:30:44. > :30:49.extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like
:30:50. > :30:53.Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I
:30:54. > :30:57.personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I
:30:58. > :31:02.will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem
:31:03. > :31:07.within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the
:31:08. > :31:10.way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr
:31:11. > :31:26.Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the
:31:27. > :31:28.problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate
:31:29. > :31:31.communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would
:31:32. > :31:34.extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in
:31:35. > :31:37.Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,
:31:38. > :31:40.as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme
:31:41. > :31:44.vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question
:31:45. > :31:48.too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get
:31:49. > :31:52.you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in
:31:53. > :31:56.Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has
:31:57. > :32:03.left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to
:32:04. > :32:05.go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people
:32:06. > :32:08.in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should
:32:09. > :32:15.have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.
:32:16. > :32:22.Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.
:32:23. > :32:28.Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are
:32:29. > :32:32.becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted
:32:33. > :32:36.myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to
:32:37. > :32:40.trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons
:32:41. > :32:44.resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the
:32:45. > :32:49.democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran
:32:50. > :32:54.parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,
:32:55. > :32:58.I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage
:32:59. > :33:06.has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants
:33:07. > :33:10.to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going
:33:11. > :33:15.to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his
:33:16. > :33:19.constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr
:33:20. > :33:25.Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from
:33:26. > :33:27.Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the
:33:28. > :33:34.opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not
:33:35. > :33:38.always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an
:33:39. > :33:43.e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,
:33:44. > :33:50.overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you
:33:51. > :33:55.are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,
:33:56. > :34:00.Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June
:34:01. > :34:04.the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be
:34:05. > :34:09.absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is
:34:10. > :34:12.right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the
:34:13. > :34:16.European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one
:34:17. > :34:21.another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline
:34:22. > :34:26.the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I
:34:27. > :34:31.have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.
:34:32. > :34:35.You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made
:34:36. > :34:39.the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made
:34:40. > :34:43.it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote
:34:44. > :34:46.Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would
:34:47. > :34:52.win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of
:34:53. > :35:00.that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas
:35:01. > :35:03.I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history
:35:04. > :35:07.proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk
:35:08. > :35:10.often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part
:35:11. > :35:15.of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic
:35:16. > :35:20.policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to
:35:21. > :35:23.sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave
:35:24. > :35:30.certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They
:35:31. > :35:36.freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel
:35:37. > :35:40.still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for
:35:41. > :35:43.Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and
:35:44. > :35:49.we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like
:35:50. > :35:53.Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is
:35:54. > :35:56.to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why
:35:57. > :36:00.can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but
:36:01. > :36:05.you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this
:36:06. > :36:08.than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten
:36:09. > :36:13.years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in
:36:14. > :36:17.2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in
:36:18. > :36:21.2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left
:36:22. > :36:25.us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically
:36:26. > :36:30.gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her
:36:31. > :36:34.record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,
:36:35. > :36:38.nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of
:36:39. > :36:42.thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the
:36:43. > :36:45.size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of
:36:46. > :36:49.thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The
:36:50. > :36:54.problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the
:36:55. > :36:58.argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted
:36:59. > :37:02.her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until
:37:03. > :37:06.she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,
:37:07. > :37:10.just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.
:37:11. > :37:14.Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee
:37:15. > :37:18.into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what
:37:19. > :37:27.people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself
:37:28. > :37:30.with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip
:37:31. > :37:35.to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will
:37:36. > :37:39.come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit
:37:40. > :37:42.Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill
:37:43. > :37:48.and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas
:37:49. > :37:53.Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in
:37:54. > :37:59.the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were
:38:00. > :38:02.Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a
:38:03. > :38:08.Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a
:38:09. > :38:11.Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a
:38:12. > :38:14.party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree
:38:15. > :38:23.with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into
:38:24. > :38:27.2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote
:38:28. > :38:31.Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you
:38:32. > :38:35.fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and
:38:36. > :38:51.see. Very well! Thank you both very much.
:38:52. > :38:52.Hello, you're watching the Sunday Politics
:38:53. > :38:57.Coming up today: after the Westminster attack,
:38:58. > :38:59.what now for the Government's anti-radicalisation strategy,
:39:00. > :39:06.regarded as toxic by many Muslim communities in Hull?
:39:07. > :39:08.It would be perverse to have a counterterrorism strategy
:39:09. > :39:10.that didn't include trying to prevent people being radicalised
:39:11. > :39:19.We'll also be looking ahead to the triggering
:39:20. > :39:24.of Article 50 on Wednesday, hearing from the Yorkshire town
:39:25. > :39:27.which voted to remain in the EU by the narrowest of margins.
:39:28. > :39:29.We're joined by Craig Whittaker, Conservative MP for Calder Valley
:39:30. > :39:34.and by Richard Corbett, Labour MEP for Yorkshire
:39:35. > :39:38.and the Humber and in the London studio today is Lord Paul Scriven,
:39:39. > :39:39.Lib Dem peer and Sheffield City Council.
:39:40. > :39:43.It was a normal day in the House of Commons.
:39:44. > :39:45.Prime Minister's Questions were over, voting had begun,
:39:46. > :39:50.Our MPs tell us exactly what happened.
:39:51. > :39:53.There were a bunch of people running towards me saying, get back,
:39:54. > :39:59.I had a couple of constituents that had come down to see
:40:00. > :40:05.I had walked them out of the building, gone back
:40:06. > :40:08.inside to vote and within moments, they sent me a text saying,
:40:09. > :40:11.something has just happened, all the barriers are going up around
:40:12. > :40:16.Parliament, we don't know what's going on.
:40:17. > :40:18.Another MP friend of mine wanted and was white as a sheet.
:40:19. > :40:22.He said he has just seen someone shot right in front
:40:23. > :40:25.of him and within minutes, there was mayhem outside and armed
:40:26. > :40:32.police telling us to get away from the windows.
:40:33. > :40:34.Suddenly, seven people came running up the stairs and they said
:40:35. > :40:38.there is a man with a gun and a knife and we've been
:40:39. > :40:42.We hid in my office and the staff were leaving, so I shouted
:40:43. > :40:45.at my staff to get back in the office because we've
:40:46. > :40:48.Get back in the office, turn your phones off, close
:40:49. > :40:58.There were six of us who were members of the House
:40:59. > :41:01.of Lords and I remember getting in and just feeling absolutely
:41:02. > :41:04.terrified and we were standing with our backs to the door in case
:41:05. > :41:10.We genuinely thought there was a gunman on the loose in the cafe.
:41:11. > :41:14.I am now going to suspend the sitting of the house.
:41:15. > :41:28.This house is now suspended but please wait here.
:41:29. > :41:33.Parliament has been disrupted by this terrorist incident
:41:34. > :41:36.and we have got to make sure that we find out what happened
:41:37. > :41:52.It's quarter past four and we are still locked in the chamber.
:41:53. > :41:55.All of our thoughts are with the people who have been
:41:56. > :41:57.injured in this attack outside Parliament on Westminster Bridge.
:41:58. > :41:59.Our hearts go out to them to their families at
:42:00. > :42:07.Just so much sorrow for the people who died
:42:08. > :42:17.I think we're all really struggling with the death of a police officer.
:42:18. > :42:20.The police are phenomenal, we saw them letting people
:42:21. > :42:25.We saw tourists taking selfies with them, is just amazing,
:42:26. > :42:28.they go beyond the call of duty every day to think he died
:42:29. > :42:37.He didn't succeed, he got ten yards into the gate with an appalling
:42:38. > :42:39.trail of devastation and death and terror behind him.
:42:40. > :42:52.But he didn't succeed in his objective.
:42:53. > :42:55.A number of our MPs talking about their experience on Wednesday,
:42:56. > :42:58.a day I'm sure many will never forget.
:42:59. > :43:00.Craig Whittaker, do you feel less safe about going
:43:01. > :43:12.The response from the police, from the ambulance service,
:43:13. > :43:18.from all bluelight services and our armed officers
:43:19. > :43:20.was incredibly quick, but that is the most secure building
:43:21. > :43:23.probably in London from a police point of view and as long
:43:24. > :43:27.as we carry on being aware of what might happen
:43:28. > :43:29.when we're doing surgeries, that's the place we are vulnerable
:43:30. > :43:33.and most of our offices and our homes are quite secure
:43:34. > :43:36.but it's when we're out and about and if you thought
:43:37. > :43:39.about it, you wouldn't do the job, so I don't think
:43:40. > :43:53.Lord Scriven, I know you were at Westminster on Wednesday.
:43:54. > :43:56.When you hear the reports of what happened, MPs locking
:43:57. > :43:57.themselves in cupboards, it all sounds very chaotic.
:43:58. > :44:00.Do you think the Parliamentary authorities were really prepared
:44:01. > :44:11.I heard the initial commotion, I heard the shots and within minutes,
:44:12. > :44:20.messages were being sent around the palace about what to do.
:44:21. > :44:22.Clearly the intruder, the cold-blooded murderer,
:44:23. > :44:25.was shot quite fast as he breached the security, but in any
:44:26. > :44:37.I think we have to stay calm, take a step back and allow
:44:38. > :44:39.the authorities to do an analysis of what worked,
:44:40. > :44:40.whether anything else needs to be strengthened.
:44:41. > :44:43.There is a balance here, this is Parliament.
:44:44. > :44:47.It's an open building for our democracy but it has to be
:44:48. > :44:50.secured as well and that's the balance that the
:44:51. > :45:01.But it was scary, it was a sad day, but on the whole things went well.
:45:02. > :45:03.Richard Corbett, presumably you were at the European Parliament
:45:04. > :45:10.It was a year to the day that the bombs went off
:45:11. > :45:14.in the Brussels metro close to the parliament building
:45:15. > :45:18.and there had been a ceremony that very morning.
:45:19. > :45:20.Little did we know that same afternoon there would be
:45:21. > :45:26.a similar, equally alarming attack on Westminster.
:45:27. > :45:28.Craig Whittaker, the debate is turning inevitably
:45:29. > :45:30.to whether our police should be routinely armed.
:45:31. > :45:42.I think ultimately it's got to be a decision for the police
:45:43. > :45:45.and the ones it's going to affect, they're the ones that need
:45:46. > :45:53.The only word of caution I would say is that in countries where they have
:45:54. > :45:57.armed police like America we see great cases of whether there
:45:58. > :46:00.are incidents involving the police, the gangs have guns as well.
:46:01. > :46:03.We don't have that currently as a rule in this country.
:46:04. > :46:15.We do have a big problem with knives but guns we don't,
:46:16. > :46:18.so I think there will be debate to come in the future.
:46:19. > :46:21.I don't have the answer but I think the police are to make the ultimate
:46:22. > :46:24.decision but I think we need to have an open, honest
:46:25. > :46:27.We know that police here have increased
:46:28. > :46:31.on patrol but Paul Scriven, would you like to see routinely
:46:32. > :46:33.armed police officers on the streets of Sheffield?
:46:34. > :46:38.Absolutely not for two reasons, the first, Craig just said,
:46:39. > :46:41.where the police have guns, the gun crime rate is much higher.
:46:42. > :46:46.For every 100,000 people in the UK, 0.3 gun crime.
:46:47. > :46:49.In America where they routinely arm police, 10.5 for every
:46:50. > :46:55.Secondly and just as importantly, if we were, the terrorists
:46:56. > :46:59.would win because we would be changing our very way of life
:47:00. > :47:03.to actually respond to them in a way which I think
:47:04. > :47:06.would undermine our policing and our consent within communities
:47:07. > :47:11.with which the police work so absolutely not.
:47:12. > :47:17.I think this would be dangerous both in terms of crime rate rising
:47:18. > :47:20.but also undermining the very values of what it means to be British
:47:21. > :47:22.and British policing in our country and we cannot allow terrorists
:47:23. > :47:31.When you look at European countries we would regard as liberal,
:47:32. > :47:32.tolerant democracies, police there are routinely armed.
:47:33. > :47:38.It varies from country to country and it also varies how they do it,
:47:39. > :47:42.and what sort of culture comes out of that.
:47:43. > :47:51.That's partly because of the attacks last year, but if you look
:47:52. > :47:54.at Switzerland or Scandinavian countries, the police
:47:55. > :48:01.are armed but not in a gung ho way, shall we say.
:48:02. > :48:04.There seems to be little political appetite for an immediate security
:48:05. > :48:10.crackdown following the attack but we're asking today,
:48:11. > :48:12.is it time to look again at the Prevent anti-radicalisation
:48:13. > :48:15.programme which is a key part of the country's
:48:16. > :48:18.Despite having a toxic reputation within many Muslim communities,
:48:19. > :48:24.the former Home Secretary and Hull MP Alan Johnson regarded as vital.
:48:25. > :48:26.It's very important and what's important to that is neighbourhood
:48:27. > :48:32.policing teams in every community picking up intelligence.
:48:33. > :48:35.People don't often, if they see something suspicious that might mean
:48:36. > :48:37.a youngster has been radicalised, they don't often try
:48:38. > :48:42.to find out the number of the Counterterrorism Unit
:48:43. > :48:46.in London, they will go to a local police officer who they know,
:48:47. > :48:48.and neighbourhood police are crucial on many levels but particularly
:48:49. > :48:58.There are things you can do, I don't think we got it right
:48:59. > :49:00.when we first introduced it, but it would be perverse
:49:01. > :49:03.to have a counterterrorism strategy that didn't include trying
:49:04. > :49:05.to prevent people being radicalised in the first place.
:49:06. > :49:09.Joining us for our next discussion is Iqbal Bhana.
:49:10. > :49:11.He's deputy chair of the Government's hate
:49:12. > :49:16.Alan Johnson says the prevent strategy is still vital.
:49:17. > :49:25.I totally agree, it is fundamental to what we're trying to do.
:49:26. > :49:30.My concern is that it's not working at the moment and we to go back
:49:31. > :49:34.to the drawing board and reconfigure it and make sure it does
:49:35. > :49:37.what he talks about and that is, it works at a neighbourhood level.
:49:38. > :49:45.I think the way the strategy was developed did not take into good
:49:46. > :49:47.consideration the community was supposed to be in that
:49:48. > :49:49.and the community felt was being imposed upon them rather
:49:50. > :49:52.than working with them and that's a concern that has been expressed
:49:53. > :49:55.right from the outset by the Muslim community throughout the country.
:49:56. > :49:57.Craig Whittaker, the former co-chairman of the Conservative
:49:58. > :50:00.Party says the Prevent strategy has become toxic within
:50:01. > :50:07.I don't know if it's right is the honest answer
:50:08. > :50:10.but like all these things, they evolve over time
:50:11. > :50:15.and if what we're being told is that it does need a revamp,
:50:16. > :50:22.whether that's going back to the drawing board or indeed
:50:23. > :50:26.enhancing some of the aspects of it, I do know the Government have
:50:27. > :50:30.But what that looks like I guess it will come out of some white
:50:31. > :50:33.paper or consultation with the Muslim community.
:50:34. > :50:36.Many of the programmes came as a result of the 2005 London
:50:37. > :50:38.bombings, effectively put into place by Tony Blair's Government.
:50:39. > :50:44.Do you think it is time we looked at these again?
:50:45. > :50:47.Alan Johnson is right, we need something but it's got
:50:48. > :50:51.to work and has to be reformed and improved.
:50:52. > :50:53.Working with the community, but also making sure no community
:50:54. > :50:58.feels that it is targeted, especially the Muslim community
:50:59. > :51:00.because let's not forget, they are not the only community
:51:01. > :51:03.from which terrorists have sometimes come.
:51:04. > :51:09.The second-biggest terrorist atrocity in Europe over the last few
:51:10. > :51:12.years was by a radical Christian, Anders Brevik in Norway
:51:13. > :51:15.when he machine-gunned the teenagers at the holiday camp so we have to be
:51:16. > :51:24.aware not to target and stigmatise any particular community.
:51:25. > :51:26.It's interesting that radicalisation programmes are largely aimed
:51:27. > :51:30.at young Muslim men, not exclusively but largely aimed
:51:31. > :51:32.at young men, and yet the attacker at Westminster
:51:33. > :51:34.was a 52-year-old man, so how do you counter
:51:35. > :51:46.That is one of the conundrums that everybody has been
:51:47. > :51:50.The normal profile of an extremist radicalist
:51:51. > :51:57.This is completely different but it's not different in a real sense.
:51:58. > :51:59.If you look at one of my friends who was brutally
:52:00. > :52:03.Jo Cox, her murderer was 52 and he was a lone wolf.
:52:04. > :52:07.People must have known that he had a tendency for extreme
:52:08. > :52:14.But that is completely unknown to the services.
:52:15. > :52:17.Before we finish on this, has there been evidence of a rise
:52:18. > :52:24.in hate crimes since Wednesday's tragic events at Westminster?
:52:25. > :52:26.My information is coming from an organisation the Government
:52:27. > :52:30.set up and there has been some spike in the number of attacks.
:52:31. > :52:33.I was talking to a taxi driver here yesterday who said
:52:34. > :52:36.on the evening of the attack in London, a taxi driver
:52:37. > :52:44.I can't confirm it but apparently that happened.
:52:45. > :52:51.Other than that, I've not seen anything else but today at mosque,
:52:52. > :52:55.my imam made it clear we should not accept these people as Muslims
:52:56. > :52:58.and should not term them as Muslims in the Muslim community.
:52:59. > :53:01.We should not be answering for the actions of these people.
:53:02. > :53:04.The Government has confirmed that the formal process of leaving
:53:05. > :53:09.Is the triggering of negotiations to leave the EU seen as a threat
:53:10. > :53:11.to a prosperous future or the path to more opportunity?
:53:12. > :53:14.Len Tingle has been to Harrogate, a town which voted to remain
:53:15. > :53:25.This woman comes from the Czech Republic.
:53:26. > :53:28.She's one of the 70-strong workforce in this hotel here in Harrogate.
:53:29. > :53:33.Well over 40 of them are EU nationals.
:53:34. > :53:36.We couldn't run a business without them, so it has caused some
:53:37. > :53:44.I've had one person leave recently and go home because of the whole
:53:45. > :53:48.Brexit situation and the nervousness that that has left and
:53:49. > :53:51.a feeling of discomfort about their safety and future.
:53:52. > :53:54.I've got one or two others who are considering that as well,
:53:55. > :53:57.Surprisingly, general manager Simon Cotton voted to Leave
:53:58. > :54:01.He is anxious about the future of his EU immigrant workforce,
:54:02. > :54:07.but believes common sense will find a solution.
:54:08. > :54:12.I think we should have more immigration, just
:54:13. > :54:16.better controls on it, so who's coming in, what sort
:54:17. > :54:18.of skills they can provide and if they can help drive
:54:19. > :54:21.the economy, because we need more people in this country
:54:22. > :54:28.Just across town, formal Royal Engineer Paul Rawlinson started
:54:29. > :54:31.off his coffee and cake shop when he left the army
:54:32. > :54:34.He voted to Remain and he's very worried about the EU
:54:35. > :54:38.Some of my team were pretty upset, especially the EU nationals.
:54:39. > :54:40.Some were saying, "OK, we're not welcome here any more,
:54:41. > :54:51.we're going to leave," but I think that has levelled out a little bit.
:54:52. > :54:55.Most of us were a bit sad and it's just not the way
:54:56. > :54:58.It's not surprising that should be differences of opinion
:54:59. > :55:01.here as to what economic deal there should be once
:55:02. > :55:03.Harrogate was one of just three places across
:55:04. > :55:06.the whole of Yorkshire - Leeds and Yorkshire bring the others
:55:07. > :55:09.- that voted in favour of staying in the EU.
:55:10. > :55:11.It was a close-run thing - 51% said stay, 49% said leave.
:55:12. > :55:14.The falling value of the pound is highlighted by both
:55:15. > :55:20.businesses, but they come to totally different conclusions.
:55:21. > :55:26.We've got a number of airports on our doorstep and people can fly
:55:27. > :55:28.in for short breaks or longer holidays and the dollar
:55:29. > :55:37.Elements like coffee which are traded in the dollar,
:55:38. > :55:40.the pound against that currency means that prices have risen
:55:41. > :55:44.and we've already had to add that on to our guests.
:55:45. > :55:48.If the different views here are anything to go by,
:55:49. > :55:51.serving up a Brexit deal acceptable to all is going to
:55:52. > :56:01.Various thoughts from businesses in Harrogate.
:56:02. > :56:04.Let's go back to Lord Paul Scriven who's at Westminster today.
:56:05. > :56:06.Article 50 triggered on Wednesday, three more sleeps!
:56:07. > :56:08.Have you started breaking out in a cold sweat?
:56:09. > :56:15.As you can see from my top lip, possibly!
:56:16. > :56:22.What we will do in three days is basically slam our foot
:56:23. > :56:25.on an accelerator in the car, not clear whether we've got
:56:26. > :56:28.the steering wheel and not clear whether the brakes work.
:56:29. > :56:34.It seems to be acceleration regardless of what the consequences
:56:35. > :56:38.are and as we start to go forward, we have to see this is going to be
:56:39. > :56:41.really complex with some really big issues and even if we are determined
:56:42. > :56:44.to come out of the single market it will have an economic catastrophe
:56:45. > :56:46.for areas like Yorkshire and the Humber so this
:56:47. > :56:50.is not a day to celebrate, it's a day to be worried as far
:56:51. > :56:56.Richard Corbett, Brexit is happening, isn't it about time
:56:57. > :57:04.we all started working together to try to make it a success?
:57:05. > :57:07.It's the mother of divorce cases with several thousand subjects that
:57:08. > :57:10.at some point you need to find a solution to but there is a choice
:57:11. > :57:13.to be made by Britain going into these negotiations,
:57:14. > :57:17.are we going to try to stay inside the customs union or not?
:57:18. > :57:18.Do we want a barrier for our manufacturers,
:57:19. > :57:33.Do we want to keep how universities out of European research funding?
:57:34. > :57:35.Do we want to affect passport services across Europe?
:57:36. > :57:37.Do we want to stop police corroborating with Europe?
:57:38. > :57:46.The Government seems to be embarking down those roads and in that case,
:57:47. > :57:48.there will be many who voted Leave who will say, that's
:57:49. > :57:53.not what I was told, that's not what I will too far.
:57:54. > :57:57.A lot of questions there and we don't have time
:57:58. > :58:00.to answer them all today, but the point that Richard Corbett
:58:01. > :58:03.makes is that many people who voted Leave, are they going
:58:04. > :58:08.It's interesting Richard took the negative view
:58:09. > :58:15.There is a positive future that as well.
:58:16. > :58:17.For Calder Valley businesses, 90% of businesses are manufacturers
:58:18. > :58:25.We are still in but we also exporting not just to the EU
:58:26. > :58:29.but other countries as well so there are pros and cons.
:58:30. > :58:35.I don't get the negativity here and I voted Remain.
:58:36. > :58:40.I accept we've got to move on and this is what the British
:58:41. > :58:44.We have a great Prime Minister who will get on and get the best
:58:45. > :58:49.We've been arguing, talking, discussing, debating about just
:58:50. > :58:51.triggering the process which starts next Wednesday.
:58:52. > :58:57.Richard Corbett, you predicted this economic meltdown would begin
:58:58. > :58:59.after June 23 last year and it didn't.
:59:00. > :59:01.Well, the Government didn't start the process,
:59:02. > :59:15.Secondly, there are measures taken, the pound was devalued by 20%
:59:16. > :59:20.which will feed through to higher prices for food and fuel.
:59:21. > :59:24.The Government has borrowed a heck of a lot more money to pay for this
:59:25. > :59:32.If it is a costly Brexit, a damaging Brexit, very few people
:59:33. > :59:35.voted for Brexit at any cost, they voted for Brexit at no cost
:59:36. > :59:39.because they were told it will not cost money, it will bring in money
:59:40. > :59:46.These people are entitled to demand a rethink.
:59:47. > :59:58.Lord Scriven, are you going to try to derail the Brexit process?
:59:59. > :00:01.I'm going to make sure that British businesses and British people
:00:02. > :00:07.have the opportunities that they have now to flourish
:00:08. > :00:09.and succeed but I worry that with a hard Brexit,
:00:10. > :00:13.those opportunities are going to go and I'm going to hold the Government
:00:14. > :00:17.going to be sun-filled meadows when we leave to account and let
:00:18. > :00:19.the British people know exactly what the implications
:00:20. > :00:25.Are you going to eat your hat if at the end of the two-year
:00:26. > :00:29.process, it's a better outcome for the UK?
:00:30. > :00:34.I don't think it's about eating my hat, what I'd say to people
:00:35. > :00:44.who are now negotiating, give us some security that
:00:45. > :00:48.what you're doing will be better, because sound bites like "red,
:00:49. > :00:50.white and blue Brexit" or "Brexit means Brexit" is not
:00:51. > :00:53.solid basis for businesses and people to understand
:00:54. > :00:56.The European Parliament will ultimately have a vote
:00:57. > :00:59.on the Brexit deal, what happens if Europe says no,
:01:00. > :01:05.The more important question is, what happens if the House of Commons
:01:06. > :01:08.which has been promised a meaningful vote takes one look at the deal
:01:09. > :01:10.and if it's a bad one, they say no to it?
:01:11. > :01:17.That's why I and the Liberal Democrats support giving the final
:01:18. > :01:24.If we trust the public to say, yes, we want to go out,
:01:25. > :01:27.then once the final deal is known, we should trust them to say,
:01:28. > :01:30.is this in the interest of our community and our country,
:01:31. > :01:33.Briefly Craig Whittaker, this could be cleared
:01:34. > :01:41.Theresa May could try to get herself a brand-new mandate.
:01:42. > :01:46.Thank you very much to Craig Whittaker,
:01:47. > :01:53.We had back to Andrew Neil and London.
:01:54. > :02:10.So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday
:02:11. > :02:13.at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document
:02:14. > :02:17.Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion -
:02:18. > :02:19.overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat,
:02:20. > :02:22.And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday,
:02:23. > :02:23.will trigger Article 50, formally starting
:02:24. > :02:27.The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk,
:02:28. > :02:33.made an appeal for unity at the gathering.
:02:34. > :02:38.Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations
:02:39. > :02:46.that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors.
:02:47. > :02:49.At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds,
:02:50. > :02:53.they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic
:02:54. > :02:55.circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith
:02:56. > :03:15.Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on
:03:16. > :03:19.that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important
:03:20. > :03:23.figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our
:03:24. > :03:29.divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new
:03:30. > :03:33.crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international
:03:34. > :03:38.trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years,
:03:39. > :03:45.by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is
:03:46. > :03:48.inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member
:03:49. > :03:52.states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because
:03:53. > :03:57.that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I
:03:58. > :04:00.think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent.
:04:01. > :04:06.Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow
:04:07. > :04:09.setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise
:04:10. > :04:27.Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that
:04:28. > :04:31.doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would
:04:32. > :04:33.be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member
:04:34. > :04:36.states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is
:04:37. > :04:39.effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is
:04:40. > :04:41.not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent
:04:42. > :04:43.but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the
:04:44. > :04:46.Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it
:04:47. > :04:48.ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification
:04:49. > :04:52.process, people looking at this would think it is Mission:
:04:53. > :04:57.Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact
:04:58. > :05:02.that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well,
:05:03. > :05:07.there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and
:05:08. > :05:12.quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and
:05:13. > :05:17.disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries
:05:18. > :05:20.celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful
:05:21. > :05:27.movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not
:05:28. > :05:31.there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there
:05:32. > :05:37.now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that
:05:38. > :05:43.we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me!
:05:44. > :05:49.I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place
:05:50. > :05:52.envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why
:05:53. > :05:58.people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look
:05:59. > :06:03.at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not
:06:04. > :06:10.possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they
:06:11. > :06:14.will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements?
:06:15. > :06:18.I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be
:06:19. > :06:21.surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal
:06:22. > :06:26.decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to
:06:27. > :06:30.buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed
:06:31. > :06:33.and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can
:06:34. > :06:37.happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany
:06:38. > :06:50.which could really result in a change of Government... That is the
:06:51. > :06:53.big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw
:06:54. > :06:55.that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into
:06:56. > :06:58.the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory
:06:59. > :07:01.observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see,
:07:02. > :07:05.if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional
:07:06. > :07:08.agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council
:07:09. > :07:12.doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French
:07:13. > :07:15.elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second
:07:16. > :07:22.round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be
:07:23. > :07:27.representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine
:07:28. > :07:31.le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a
:07:32. > :07:35.party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to
:07:36. > :07:39.sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote
:07:40. > :07:43.d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that
:07:44. > :07:49.and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no
:07:50. > :08:02.longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form
:08:03. > :08:05.a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you
:08:06. > :08:08.know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we
:08:09. > :08:11.are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big
:08:12. > :08:13.task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional
:08:14. > :08:17.arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year
:08:18. > :08:20.timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us
:08:21. > :08:24.on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a
:08:25. > :08:28.meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is
:08:29. > :08:32.going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and
:08:33. > :08:36.agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government
:08:37. > :08:40.eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a
:08:41. > :08:45.take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have
:08:46. > :08:48.campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it
:08:49. > :08:52.wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our
:08:53. > :08:57.parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the
:08:58. > :09:00.negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated
:09:01. > :09:04.areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the
:09:05. > :09:10.campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council
:09:11. > :09:15.and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
:09:16. > :09:21.You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity
:09:22. > :09:23.for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the
:09:24. > :09:27.Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time
:09:28. > :09:31.devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog
:09:32. > :09:42.about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU
:09:43. > :09:47.march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to
:09:48. > :09:52.Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the
:09:53. > :09:57.European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of
:09:58. > :10:06.national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people
:10:07. > :10:11.like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is
:10:12. > :10:16.for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it
:10:17. > :10:20.happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were
:10:21. > :10:24.lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be,
:10:25. > :10:27.if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their
:10:28. > :10:33.minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even
:10:34. > :10:37.begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean.
:10:38. > :10:42.Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that
:10:43. > :10:47.credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the
:10:48. > :10:52.Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even
:10:53. > :10:55.then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's
:10:56. > :11:14.interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free
:11:15. > :11:17.movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single
:11:18. > :11:20.market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that
:11:21. > :11:23.outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are
:11:24. > :11:25.pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least
:11:26. > :11:28.let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea
:11:29. > :11:30.of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really
:11:31. > :11:33.did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want
:11:34. > :11:40.external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the
:11:41. > :11:44.momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the
:11:45. > :11:48.banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news
:11:49. > :11:53.was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force
:11:54. > :11:58.from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our
:11:59. > :12:02.resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right
:12:03. > :12:05.that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and
:12:06. > :12:09.that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining
:12:10. > :12:15.movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we
:12:16. > :12:18.will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course
:12:19. > :12:23.those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been
:12:24. > :12:27.such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she
:12:28. > :12:33.blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about
:12:34. > :12:40.this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's
:12:41. > :12:43.job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think
:12:44. > :12:48.you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and
:12:49. > :12:51.everywhere else where there are British citizens would have
:12:52. > :12:54.responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU
:12:55. > :12:58.counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that
:12:59. > :13:02.until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk
:13:03. > :13:06.about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a
:13:07. > :13:11.better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU
:13:12. > :13:15.citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow
:13:16. > :13:18.at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always.
:13:19. > :13:20.And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow
:13:21. > :13:21.night from Birmingham - with guests including
:13:22. > :13:23.the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer,
:13:24. > :13:26.former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond -
:13:27. > :13:32.I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One.
:13:33. > :13:34.Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's
:13:35. > :14:41.MUSIC: The Elements by Tom Lehrer
:14:42. > :14:45.# There's Attenborough, micro.bit, The Bottom Line and In Our Time
:14:46. > :14:47.# And Terrific Scientific and Ten Pieces and All In The Mind
:14:48. > :14:50.# And BBC Food, Alphablocks, Forces of Nature With Brian Cox
:14:51. > :14:53.# A Midsummer Night's Dream and Springwatch. #
:14:54. > :15:02.Every element of wonder - available across the BBC.
:15:03. > :15:03.indecent behaviour. Evelyn Waugh's classic novel.
:15:04. > :15:04.I expect you'll want to become a schoolmaster?
:15:05. > :15:07.That's what most of the gentlemen does that get sent down for
:15:08. > :15:09.indecent behaviour. Evelyn Waugh's classic novel.
:15:10. > :15:13.Have you ever been in love, Mr Pennyfeather? No, not yet.