:00:36. > :00:40.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:44. > :00:47.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:48. > :00:49.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:50. > :00:55.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:56. > :00:58.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:00:59. > :01:02.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:03. > :01:06.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:07. > :01:08.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:09. > :01:13.more staff at security and intelligence agencies.
:01:14. > :01:15.On the Sunday Politics in Yorkshire and Lincolnshire:
:01:16. > :01:18.With security stepped-up across our area, we ask what impact
:01:19. > :01:22.Brexit will have when to comes to the fight against terror.
:01:23. > :01:26.supporters. In London, we look at what the Conservatives are offering
:01:27. > :01:32.the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this
:01:33. > :01:35.morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia
:01:36. > :01:36.Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts
:01:37. > :01:41.on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,
:01:42. > :01:49.the election campaign And some recent polls
:01:50. > :01:52.suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look
:01:53. > :01:59.at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over
:02:00. > :02:02.the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third
:02:03. > :02:07.of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's
:02:08. > :02:09.Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be
:02:10. > :02:15.enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break
:02:16. > :02:17.in campaigning for And in the evening it will be
:02:18. > :02:23.the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP
:02:24. > :02:27.publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do
:02:28. > :02:30.so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's
:02:31. > :02:33.Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main
:02:34. > :02:37.parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim
:02:38. > :02:46.Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time
:02:47. > :02:48.special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,
:02:49. > :02:51.but will take questions consecutively from members
:02:52. > :02:53.of the audience. The final week of campaigning
:02:54. > :02:56.is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days
:02:57. > :03:04.of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once
:03:05. > :03:10.voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early
:03:11. > :03:13.in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always
:03:14. > :03:16.means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,
:03:17. > :03:19.if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion
:03:20. > :03:21.polls today, which have the Conservative lead
:03:22. > :03:23.over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.
:03:24. > :03:26.So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice
:03:27. > :03:29.is the expert we always turn to at times like this,
:03:30. > :03:42.and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They
:03:43. > :03:48.seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very
:03:49. > :03:51.consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare
:03:52. > :03:57.them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto
:03:58. > :04:02.launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two
:04:03. > :04:08.points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear
:04:09. > :04:13.consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this
:04:14. > :04:16.matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads
:04:17. > :04:22.are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the
:04:23. > :04:26.landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in
:04:27. > :04:36.trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is
:04:37. > :04:40.further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that
:04:41. > :04:46.young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote
:04:47. > :04:49.for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out
:04:50. > :04:54.to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls
:04:55. > :04:58.that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the
:04:59. > :05:02.Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the
:05:03. > :05:05.Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,
:05:06. > :05:12.they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The
:05:13. > :05:17.Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you
:05:18. > :05:23.look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has
:05:24. > :05:29.been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now
:05:30. > :05:32.average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of
:05:33. > :05:36.the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is
:05:37. > :05:40.I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour
:05:41. > :05:47.manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,
:05:48. > :05:51.we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the
:05:52. > :05:55.fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,
:05:56. > :05:59.together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never
:06:00. > :06:04.voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.
:06:05. > :06:07.What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather
:06:08. > :06:13.has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?
:06:14. > :06:16.This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces
:06:17. > :06:21.the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at
:06:22. > :06:27.which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to
:06:28. > :06:31.correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support
:06:32. > :06:34.a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't
:06:35. > :06:38.assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were
:06:39. > :06:47.wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls
:06:48. > :06:51.have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they
:06:52. > :06:55.are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so
:06:56. > :07:02.far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And
:07:03. > :07:06.subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low
:07:07. > :07:10.initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of
:07:11. > :07:14.movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more
:07:15. > :07:23.in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to
:07:24. > :07:28.the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be
:07:29. > :07:32.at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by
:07:33. > :07:37.Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might
:07:38. > :07:41.not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a
:07:42. > :07:46.good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was
:07:47. > :07:53.a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the
:07:54. > :07:57.Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby
:07:58. > :08:03.was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the
:08:04. > :08:06.candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the
:08:07. > :08:11.moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been
:08:12. > :08:16.a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,
:08:17. > :08:21.she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone
:08:22. > :08:24.up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do
:08:25. > :08:28.something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy
:08:29. > :08:32.like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the
:08:33. > :08:36.reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some
:08:37. > :08:39.momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the
:08:40. > :08:43.focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were
:08:44. > :08:47.stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically
:08:48. > :08:53.cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All
:08:54. > :08:58.of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is
:08:59. > :09:02.a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.
:09:03. > :09:05.That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour
:09:06. > :09:10.Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the
:09:11. > :09:15.other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the
:09:16. > :09:20.trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this
:09:21. > :09:24.narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning
:09:25. > :09:28.resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,
:09:29. > :09:31.Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in
:09:32. > :09:36.Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them
:09:37. > :09:40.safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon
:09:41. > :09:47.for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the
:09:48. > :09:52.very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of
:09:53. > :09:59.Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.
:10:00. > :10:05.You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid
:10:06. > :10:09.for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It
:10:10. > :10:14.is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in
:10:15. > :10:19.them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.
:10:20. > :10:23.The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about
:10:24. > :10:28.like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite
:10:29. > :10:33.while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about
:10:34. > :10:35.public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I
:10:36. > :10:40.don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We
:10:41. > :10:44.had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was
:10:45. > :10:48.already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.
:10:49. > :10:53.The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually
:10:54. > :10:55.care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank
:10:56. > :10:57.you very much. The election campaign was,
:10:58. > :10:59.of course, put on hold following the terrorist
:11:00. > :11:01.attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has
:11:02. > :11:04.resumed, it's hardly surprising that security
:11:05. > :11:06.is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it
:11:07. > :11:20.would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at
:11:21. > :11:25.short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.
:11:26. > :11:29.It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very
:11:30. > :11:36.dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community
:11:37. > :11:39.response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police
:11:40. > :11:43.he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I
:11:44. > :11:44.would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources
:11:45. > :11:46.to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds
:11:47. > :11:56.is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a
:11:57. > :12:00.thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is
:12:01. > :12:03.in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow
:12:04. > :12:06.Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any
:12:07. > :12:11.more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of
:12:12. > :12:19.the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also
:12:20. > :12:22.10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by
:12:23. > :12:26.20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police
:12:27. > :12:32.officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison
:12:33. > :12:39.officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not
:12:40. > :12:45.helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra
:12:46. > :12:54.firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border
:12:55. > :12:58.guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not
:12:59. > :13:02.as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.
:13:03. > :13:05.If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy
:13:06. > :13:10.Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.
:13:11. > :13:16.If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why
:13:17. > :13:20.aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more
:13:21. > :13:27.police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing
:13:28. > :13:32.anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We
:13:33. > :13:35.will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very
:13:36. > :13:40.clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop
:13:41. > :13:46.at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be
:13:47. > :13:50.giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you
:13:51. > :13:56.will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need
:13:57. > :13:59.to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are
:14:00. > :14:07.saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger
:14:08. > :14:12.caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,
:14:13. > :14:16.not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from
:14:17. > :14:22.anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of
:14:23. > :14:27.powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to
:14:28. > :14:30.listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the
:14:31. > :14:36.intelligence community and the security service, to the army and
:14:37. > :14:39.the police, about what they think and how they think our communities
:14:40. > :14:44.could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police
:14:45. > :14:50.by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said
:14:51. > :14:54.you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured
:14:55. > :14:59.and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services
:15:00. > :15:04.and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?
:15:05. > :15:08.Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against
:15:09. > :15:13.measures designed to tackle home-grown and international
:15:14. > :15:17.terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week
:15:18. > :15:22.made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant
:15:23. > :15:30.those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into
:15:31. > :15:34.thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and
:15:35. > :15:39.investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?
:15:40. > :15:44.Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:15:45. > :15:48.many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it
:15:49. > :15:51.would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a
:15:52. > :15:58.very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce
:15:59. > :16:02.hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which
:16:03. > :16:05.can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said
:16:06. > :16:08.earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that
:16:09. > :16:12.he has been listening to the security services, what he said
:16:13. > :16:18.about the international situation has also been said by the former
:16:19. > :16:20.head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as
:16:21. > :16:26.president of back -- President Barack Obama.
:16:27. > :16:32.You say he will give the police and security services the resources and
:16:33. > :16:36.powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy
:16:37. > :16:46.Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State
:16:47. > :16:52.the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad
:16:53. > :16:57.idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and
:16:58. > :17:00.others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm
:17:01. > :17:04.interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to
:17:05. > :17:08.be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in
:17:09. > :17:13.favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on
:17:14. > :17:20.suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex
:17:21. > :17:24.situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it
:17:25. > :17:27.was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation
:17:28. > :17:35.through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly
:17:36. > :17:39.there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,
:17:40. > :17:43.Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other
:17:44. > :17:48.Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this
:17:49. > :17:52.week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We
:17:53. > :17:56.have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,
:17:57. > :18:02.but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is
:18:03. > :18:14.there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been
:18:15. > :18:16.solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but
:18:17. > :18:19.your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they
:18:20. > :18:22.need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will
:18:23. > :18:31.want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in
:18:32. > :18:40.2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At
:18:41. > :18:45.the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the
:18:46. > :18:49.one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What
:18:50. > :18:53.he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism
:18:54. > :19:01.and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed
:19:02. > :19:05.me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy
:19:06. > :19:19.Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with
:19:20. > :19:23.him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but
:19:24. > :19:26.what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat
:19:27. > :19:30.down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he
:19:31. > :19:34.didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think
:19:35. > :19:38.that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These
:19:39. > :19:40.issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together
:19:41. > :19:44.on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have
:19:45. > :19:47.promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify
:19:48. > :19:50.extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,
:19:51. > :19:52.and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,
:19:53. > :19:54.the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants
:19:55. > :19:56.for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them
:19:57. > :20:09.of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:20:10. > :20:13.Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in
:20:14. > :20:18.their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do
:20:19. > :20:22.to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans
:20:23. > :20:27.have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but
:20:28. > :20:33.there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.
:20:34. > :20:37.Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did
:20:38. > :20:42.say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do
:20:43. > :20:45.internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and
:20:46. > :20:52.international response. I think there are a range of issues. We
:20:53. > :20:57.could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words
:20:58. > :21:00.are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made
:21:01. > :21:07.these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do
:21:08. > :21:10.the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to
:21:11. > :21:15.social media companies take down this material? We have an act that
:21:16. > :21:21.was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one
:21:22. > :21:27.of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We
:21:28. > :21:30.have right now officials from my department over in the United States
:21:31. > :21:35.with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that
:21:36. > :21:42.they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have
:21:43. > :21:49.the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that
:21:50. > :21:52.maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies
:21:53. > :21:55.devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see
:21:56. > :22:01.them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a
:22:02. > :22:05.few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted
:22:06. > :22:11.a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve
:22:12. > :22:15.it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime
:22:16. > :22:18.Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but
:22:19. > :22:23.to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People
:22:24. > :22:25.will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is
:22:26. > :22:32.unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,
:22:33. > :22:37.which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote
:22:38. > :22:41.you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the
:22:42. > :22:47.picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was
:22:48. > :22:51.killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be
:22:52. > :22:56.demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the
:22:57. > :23:02.context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces
:23:03. > :23:06.we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been
:23:07. > :23:10.extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way
:23:11. > :23:16.these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were
:23:17. > :23:20.watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to
:23:21. > :23:27.look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto
:23:28. > :23:36.YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I
:23:37. > :23:39.understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting
:23:40. > :23:47.media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...
:23:48. > :23:51.You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young
:23:52. > :23:57.people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I
:23:58. > :24:01.invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on
:24:02. > :24:07.Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos
:24:08. > :24:11.or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as
:24:12. > :24:15.long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to
:24:16. > :24:19.be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying
:24:20. > :24:25.for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance
:24:26. > :24:30.that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people
:24:31. > :24:34.don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians
:24:35. > :24:39.and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be
:24:40. > :24:43.done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It
:24:44. > :24:48.is more about examining how much progress you can make. The
:24:49. > :24:53.Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers
:24:54. > :25:04.in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being
:25:05. > :25:09.monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.
:25:10. > :25:13.Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it
:25:14. > :25:16.is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is
:25:17. > :25:24.important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size
:25:25. > :25:27.of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms
:25:28. > :25:33.not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we
:25:34. > :25:39.have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our
:25:40. > :25:43.manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government
:25:44. > :25:53.spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7
:25:54. > :26:00.billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them
:26:01. > :26:05.on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,
:26:06. > :26:09.and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have
:26:10. > :26:15.quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are
:26:16. > :26:22.using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,
:26:23. > :26:30.but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.
:26:31. > :26:35.Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.
:26:36. > :26:43.Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they
:26:44. > :26:47.are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive
:26:48. > :26:51.issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and
:26:52. > :26:57.at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't
:26:58. > :27:02.come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5
:27:03. > :27:08.and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor
:27:09. > :27:16.them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.
:27:17. > :27:20.You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if
:27:21. > :27:26.they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with
:27:27. > :27:31.the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance
:27:32. > :27:34.between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there
:27:35. > :27:42.is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all
:27:43. > :27:48.sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from
:27:49. > :27:53.where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The
:27:54. > :27:57.control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because
:27:58. > :28:02.one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to
:28:03. > :28:06.satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is
:28:07. > :28:10.right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we
:28:11. > :28:15.won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no
:28:16. > :28:21.point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't
:28:22. > :28:33.give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James
:28:34. > :28:35.Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.
:28:36. > :28:43.The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old
:28:44. > :28:46.Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns
:28:47. > :28:48.about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.
:28:49. > :28:51.In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers
:28:52. > :28:52.investigating radicalisation in the UK.
:28:53. > :28:54.Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,
:28:55. > :28:57.and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO
:28:58. > :28:58.of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.
:28:59. > :29:01.We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem
:29:02. > :29:04.of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.
:29:05. > :29:09.Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,
:29:10. > :29:27.We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -
:29:28. > :29:31.Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify
:29:32. > :29:32.the sources of the problem, and polite society
:29:33. > :29:39.This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.
:29:40. > :29:43.Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,
:29:44. > :29:50.one for each year of life this country had given him.
:29:51. > :29:54.We need to think far more deeply about all this.
:29:55. > :29:57.Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem
:29:58. > :30:05.France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.
:30:06. > :30:09.Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?
:30:10. > :30:17.For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.
:30:18. > :30:20.The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.
:30:21. > :30:24.Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,
:30:25. > :30:28.and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,
:30:29. > :30:34.even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.
:30:35. > :30:44.It is high time we became serious too.
:30:45. > :30:52.Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.
:30:53. > :30:59.We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?
:31:00. > :31:02.Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations
:31:03. > :31:07.who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even
:31:08. > :31:11.violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out
:31:12. > :31:14.of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself
:31:15. > :31:17.experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.
:31:18. > :31:26.These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,
:31:27. > :31:29.hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers
:31:30. > :31:33.Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic
:31:34. > :31:39.anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition
:31:40. > :31:44.I've seen politicians and charities partner
:31:45. > :31:49.with and support some of these voices and groups.
:31:50. > :31:55.Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far
:31:56. > :31:58.right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do
:31:59. > :32:05.But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies
:32:06. > :32:15.Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.
:32:16. > :32:24.We must counter those who seek to divide us.
:32:25. > :32:31.Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,
:32:32. > :32:36.strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,
:32:37. > :32:40.let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The
:32:41. > :32:45.young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at
:32:46. > :32:51.Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its
:32:52. > :32:54.leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of
:32:55. > :32:59.the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they
:33:00. > :33:05.are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was
:33:06. > :33:10.against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just
:33:11. > :33:16.one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?
:33:17. > :33:26.Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in
:33:27. > :33:33.the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting
:33:34. > :33:37.Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide
:33:38. > :33:41.bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to
:33:42. > :33:47.that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been
:33:48. > :33:50.politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,
:33:51. > :33:56.Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and
:33:57. > :34:02.countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist
:34:03. > :34:06.-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If
:34:07. > :34:11.Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look
:34:12. > :34:15.forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join
:34:16. > :34:17.Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist
:34:18. > :34:22.offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got
:34:23. > :34:25.worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your
:34:26. > :34:28.argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of
:34:29. > :34:33.Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?
:34:34. > :34:38.The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to
:34:39. > :34:43.absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me
:34:44. > :34:46.finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It
:34:47. > :34:51.has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth
:34:52. > :34:56.continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically
:34:57. > :35:00.correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to
:35:01. > :35:04.deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in
:35:05. > :35:08.Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a
:35:09. > :35:13.crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are
:35:14. > :35:15.competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are
:35:16. > :35:21.seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians
:35:22. > :35:26.are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims
:35:27. > :35:32.should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.
:35:33. > :35:37.There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to
:35:38. > :35:41.take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many
:35:42. > :35:45.reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on
:35:46. > :35:50.the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in
:35:51. > :35:56.this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A
:35:57. > :35:58.poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would
:35:59. > :36:06.not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to
:36:07. > :36:13.the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they
:36:14. > :36:17.could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.
:36:18. > :36:23.What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current
:36:24. > :36:27.understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university
:36:28. > :36:33.campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material
:36:34. > :36:36.that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of
:36:37. > :36:44.thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is
:36:45. > :36:48.freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is
:36:49. > :36:54.through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights
:36:55. > :37:00.to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a
:37:01. > :37:05.gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many
:37:06. > :37:10.people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That
:37:11. > :37:17.is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights
:37:18. > :37:20.point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not
:37:21. > :37:27.suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people
:37:28. > :37:33.don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be
:37:34. > :37:39.opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human
:37:40. > :37:42.rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution
:37:43. > :37:45.like Salford University you should be held responsible for not
:37:46. > :37:50.cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge
:37:51. > :37:57.extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually
:37:58. > :38:01.counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not
:38:02. > :38:05.about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most
:38:06. > :38:13.effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it
:38:14. > :38:17.doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking
:38:18. > :38:22.place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims
:38:23. > :38:27.in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are
:38:28. > :38:30.homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend
:38:31. > :38:34.among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea
:38:35. > :38:40.that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is
:38:41. > :38:43.also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are
:38:44. > :38:47.defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a
:38:48. > :38:50.better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to
:38:51. > :38:52.get real about that. Thank you very much.
:38:53. > :38:54.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:55. > :38:57.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:38:58. > :39:02.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:39:03. > :39:05.Hello, a very good morning, you're watching the Sunday Politics
:39:06. > :39:08.Today we're just how safe are we in our part
:39:09. > :39:11.of the world when it comes to the threat from terrorism?
:39:12. > :39:13.And we hear from a group of young voters.
:39:14. > :39:15.What are their thoughts on the campaign in a week
:39:16. > :39:21.We have grown up with terrorism and I think it's an important issue
:39:22. > :39:30.that younger people do want to do something about.
:39:31. > :39:33.Six people from our side of the Pennines are known to have died
:39:34. > :39:37.Many more are being treated for injuries sustained in the attack.
:39:38. > :39:40.On the doorsteps of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire this weekend,
:39:41. > :39:43.politicians are being asked what more can be done to tackle
:39:44. > :39:46.the evil scourge of terrorism and what extra measures are in place
:39:47. > :39:51.to try to keep us safe. Richard Edwards reports.
:39:52. > :39:55.Wendy Fowell from Otley, Sorrell Leczkowski from Leeds,
:39:56. > :39:58.Angelika and Marcin Klis from York, Kelly Brewster from Sheffield,
:39:59. > :40:05.Courtney Boyle, a student at Leeds Beckett University -
:40:06. > :40:09.all people from our region who went to a concert and didn't come home,
:40:10. > :40:17.victims of an Islamic extremist born and raised in Manchester.
:40:18. > :40:21.And in response, moments of silence across Yorkshire.
:40:22. > :40:29.And also in response, this is now a familiar sight
:40:30. > :40:34.on the streets of Yorkshire's cities - armed officers out on patrol.
:40:35. > :40:38.It's a county that has its own unhappy history
:40:39. > :40:44.The 7/7 suicide bombers were raised in Leeds and in Huddersfield,
:40:45. > :40:48.and it was less than two miles from here that the then Batley
:40:49. > :40:51.and Spen MP Jo Cox was murdered by far right terrorist
:40:52. > :40:58.Thomas Mair as she arrived for a constituency surgery.
:40:59. > :41:00.As well as terrorists being born and brought up in Yorkshire,
:41:01. > :41:04.our region has often seen extremists on its streets and, in the past,
:41:05. > :41:10.The far right making home of West Yorkshire in particular.
:41:11. > :41:12.Every time there's been an atrocity, people have tried
:41:13. > :41:15.to use it to divide us and so far they've failed.
:41:16. > :41:20.People in this country refuse to bow down to terrorism and extremism
:41:21. > :41:23.and people have come together, people are standing up together.
:41:24. > :41:28.We saw it in London and we see it again.
:41:29. > :41:31.Here we are in Bradford today and people of all different
:41:32. > :41:35.We're not going to be divided by terrorists in this country.
:41:36. > :41:37.The important thing is that we are standing together.
:41:38. > :41:43.The politicians should come together and then sit to try to find
:41:44. > :41:46.a strategy or solution to this problem.
:41:47. > :41:52.I just think it's so tragically sad for everybody, particularly
:41:53. > :41:58.the 99.9% of Muslims who have got absolutely nothing to do with it.
:41:59. > :42:04.When we educate people about how these terrorists are going about,
:42:05. > :42:09.It's a political issue, that's my point of view.
:42:10. > :42:13.UKIP were on their general election campaign trail in Grimsby this week.
:42:14. > :42:16.Leader Paul Nuttall says the Muslim community needs to do more
:42:17. > :42:22.It seems as if this young man was hopping in and out of Libya
:42:23. > :42:25.and he may well have been to Syria and trained by Islamic State.
:42:26. > :42:29.But beyond that, the Muslim community itself has got to step up
:42:30. > :42:31.to the plate and report people to the police.
:42:32. > :42:36.It seems as if some within the mosque, where this man went,
:42:37. > :42:39.knew two years ago he had sympathies with Islamic State.
:42:40. > :42:41.He should have been reported to the police earlier.
:42:42. > :42:44.The challenge facing whichever party forms the next government is this -
:42:45. > :42:56.working out how to tackle extremism in all its forms.
:42:57. > :43:09.That was Richard Edwards reporting and we are giant alive today by
:43:10. > :43:12.Labour's and, conservative and the campaign group just Yorkshire. We
:43:13. > :43:16.have seen were armed police officers on the street, soldiers guarding
:43:17. > :43:28.public buildings, some up the mood for us as you see it. Are people
:43:29. > :43:32.angry, defiant? I think we must stand together, we must not start
:43:33. > :43:35.blaming all Muslims for what happened any more than we should
:43:36. > :43:42.blame that dreadful man who killed Jo Cox. We can't blame the whole of
:43:43. > :43:47.the white community for what he did, so we mustn't start blaming Muslims.
:43:48. > :43:52.Despite what Paul Nuttall is seen, I don't know when that was filmed, but
:43:53. > :43:59.I understand that people at the mosque where that man and terrorist
:44:00. > :44:04.worshipped did actually inform the police about their anxieties about
:44:05. > :44:07.him. We can't blame them either. Just look forward and try to look
:44:08. > :44:16.forward with friendship towards people. I think my position is
:44:17. > :44:20.appreciated more about Muslims than people who have no religion at all.
:44:21. > :44:26.I'm not sure about why that should be, but it is the case. We have had
:44:27. > :44:29.tough talk from Theresa May this week but you are a former Home
:44:30. > :44:33.Office minister. If she could go back to her time as Home Secretary,
:44:34. > :44:40.would she have cut police numbers to the extent that she did? I don't
:44:41. > :44:45.think the absolute number in terms of police, it is one element, but I
:44:46. > :44:51.don't think it's the only element we are talking about here in relation
:44:52. > :44:55.to people's security. 18,000 fewer police officers, you are seeing that
:44:56. > :45:00.doesn't make a difference? I think these things can all have some kind
:45:01. > :45:05.of contribution. I really do feel very strongly that it it is the
:45:06. > :45:09.direction of policy as much as it is just numbers. Concentrating just
:45:10. > :45:15.numbers is my view the wrong thing to do. People deserve to have
:45:16. > :45:19.security, whether it is security from the point of view of aggression
:45:20. > :45:23.or violence in the internally in this country of whether it is a tax
:45:24. > :45:27.on their way of life by these appalling terrorist acts. From
:45:28. > :45:32.wherever they come, whatever sector of society or whatever part of the
:45:33. > :45:36.world, they are entitled as a matter of some priority to security and
:45:37. > :45:41.governments have to make decisions so that there are security is
:45:42. > :45:45.guaranteed. That is my priority. We will talk about security issues in
:45:46. > :45:49.detail any moment, but let me ask you, what do you make of those
:45:50. > :45:52.comments from Paul Nuttall when he said, these are his words, the
:45:53. > :46:00.Muslim community needs to step up to the plate to the threat from Terra?
:46:01. > :46:04.Let me make it clear, the Muslim committee did everything they could
:46:05. > :46:08.in relation to this case. The need the appropriate referrals, they even
:46:09. > :46:12.actually banned this person from the mosque. Frankly, there is not a
:46:13. > :46:16.great deal more the Muslim committee could do. I just want to quote what
:46:17. > :46:22.Andy Burnham said, this man who committed this atrocity is no more a
:46:23. > :46:28.Muslim than the person who murdered Jo Cox. It is completely unfair to
:46:29. > :46:31.consistently labelled the Muslim community in terms of them in
:46:32. > :46:35.needing to do more, this is a much broader issue, this is not an
:46:36. > :46:40.Islamic issue, this is about a number of factors, a very complex
:46:41. > :46:43.issue and what we need right now is quite calm heads. It is not 1
:46:44. > :46:48.million miles from what David Cameron said when he was PM, he said
:46:49. > :46:52.it was time for the silent majority of Muslims to stand up and fight
:46:53. > :47:00.extremism. Those were assigned to different to what Paul Nuttall said,
:47:01. > :47:05.ID? No, not. I am a Muslim, I have grown up here, I am 46 years old and
:47:06. > :47:09.I also understand about some of the conversations that take place within
:47:10. > :47:14.the Muslim community. I think there has got to be a space where we can
:47:15. > :47:20.actually have quite open and transparent dialogue. I don't
:47:21. > :47:26.actually see the silent majority. When we saw 132 children killed,
:47:27. > :47:28.when we saw this tragedy that took place in Manchester, the Muslim
:47:29. > :47:32.community and the broader committee came together. I don't know a single
:47:33. > :47:38.person who did not come and stand together in the face of this
:47:39. > :47:41.adversity. You represented Keighley in parliament, an area with a large
:47:42. > :47:45.Muslim population, I know you have never shied away from tackling
:47:46. > :47:50.difficult issues. What more needs to be done to try to prevent young
:47:51. > :47:56.people from being radicalised from being dragged into this evil vacuum
:47:57. > :48:07.of Terra? It is very, very difficult. Because I haven't been
:48:08. > :48:11.the MP3 Keighley for seven years, I am not sure what's going on in the
:48:12. > :48:17.mosques there. But certainly I am hoping that the community leaders
:48:18. > :48:24.and imams, the people who the centres, teachers, I hope and trust
:48:25. > :48:30.that they are taking the line that the behaviour of that man who
:48:31. > :48:36.committed that dreadful crime on Monday are not Muslims. There is no
:48:37. > :48:42.connection between what he did and Islam. What he did is totally
:48:43. > :48:48.unknown Islamic. I hope that is the line that has been taken in
:48:49. > :48:58.Keighley. I only go to Keighley occasionally. You were involved with
:48:59. > :49:02.bringing in quite a bit of European anti-terror legislation. While at
:49:03. > :49:06.Corporation between European countries continue after Brexit? It
:49:07. > :49:10.has to, it is the simple fact. I spent the last ten years of my
:49:11. > :49:15.political career working on and in some cases instigating legislation
:49:16. > :49:18.which has been to bring co-operative levels between our intelligence
:49:19. > :49:24.agencies and our police forces right across Europe much closer together.
:49:25. > :49:30.We currently have a European police force, Europe, which is run by a
:49:31. > :49:33.British officer, we have got an awful lot of importing exchanges
:49:34. > :49:39.going on right now, including something was recent legislation in
:49:40. > :49:43.which information about the movements of terrorists or potential
:49:44. > :49:47.terrorists is no one in real time between our police forces and
:49:48. > :49:50.intelligence agencies. This has actually resulted already, it is not
:49:51. > :49:54.completely in place, been put in place, but it has resulted already
:49:55. > :49:57.in the deterrence of an prevention of a considerable number of
:49:58. > :50:04.terrorist attacks. Are you talking about tracking flight movements? One
:50:05. > :50:07.of the things I was putting the report together, it went through
:50:08. > :50:11.legislation, it was supported fully by the British Government yet and
:50:12. > :50:14.all other governments as well. It has been significantly important to
:50:15. > :50:19.detect the movements of people who can cause us harm. The man in
:50:20. > :50:22.Manchester may well have been under description of being a homebred
:50:23. > :50:28.terrorist, but the truth is that he was away from this country, being
:50:29. > :50:32.radicalised and on his trip back, he actually went through European
:50:33. > :50:37.countries and the information we will be able to obtain in future for
:50:38. > :50:42.those sort of movements would in fact in my view be very important to
:50:43. > :50:46.us. Those things cannot be lost. Have you had a guarantee from
:50:47. > :50:50.Theresa May, the Home Secretary Amber Rudd that this programme will
:50:51. > :50:55.happen after Brexit so that European countries will be able to share
:50:56. > :50:59.information? For the 67 years I was involved in putting together some of
:51:00. > :51:05.these things, the Home Secretary was 110% supportive of me. That was to
:51:06. > :51:08.reason me. We cannot allow the circumstances of Brexit are getting
:51:09. > :51:15.the way of security, whatever else it might have to be comprised on, we
:51:16. > :51:18.cannot compromise the its agreements, those new relationships,
:51:19. > :51:21.because frankly they have taken off a lot of effort by myself and many
:51:22. > :51:24.others as well to put together and I am not prepared and I'm sure many
:51:25. > :51:26.others are not prepared to allow that to put our security in
:51:27. > :51:28.jeopardy. This week we arranged to film
:51:29. > :51:31.with a group of politics students from Sheffield Hallam University,
:51:32. > :51:33.many of them first time voters, about the election issues
:51:34. > :51:35.that matter to them. But, of course, the events
:51:36. > :51:38.of the week meant our discussion was dominated
:51:39. > :51:40.by one subject above all other. BBC Radio Sheffield political
:51:41. > :51:42.reporter Charlotte Rose asked them how the atrocity would shape
:51:43. > :51:47.the election landscape. Are the events in Manchester
:51:48. > :51:49.going to have an impact I think the problem
:51:50. > :51:55.with it is we need to understand what the media are going to say
:51:56. > :51:58.in the next couple of weeks. It's really scary to know
:51:59. > :52:01.the influence that the media can have on people's thoughts,
:52:02. > :52:05.especially the fact that most of the major, or all the major
:52:06. > :52:08.newspapers and what have I think that there's going to be
:52:09. > :52:13.a real exploitation of this on the people's emotions,
:52:14. > :52:17.especially in recent weeks with the problems with
:52:18. > :52:20.the supposed sympathy That's going to be another thing
:52:21. > :52:26.that's really exploited over Unfortunately, I do believe
:52:27. > :52:30.that it will have an affect on young people's votes,
:52:31. > :52:33.not myself as I've already decided who I'm going to vote for,
:52:34. > :52:36.and I vote for policies that are going to work
:52:37. > :52:39.best for the country. But I feel speaking to fellow peers
:52:40. > :52:42.and other students my age, we have grown up with terrorism
:52:43. > :52:46.and I think it is an important issue that younger people do
:52:47. > :52:51.want to do something about, because obviously something
:52:52. > :52:52.is not doing anything at the moment and I do think it
:52:53. > :52:55.will affect young people. Coming over here, do
:52:56. > :52:58.you think it might change I don't think young students
:52:59. > :53:03.would change significantly the way they vote because I think there's
:53:04. > :53:07.many significant issues regarding young people,
:53:08. > :53:11.regarding the housing benefits amongst 18-21 year olds,
:53:12. > :53:14.and also tuition fees. I think the older generations
:53:15. > :53:17.are going to see this as more of a threat than the younger
:53:18. > :53:19.generations in terms I think it's going to go
:53:20. > :53:24.more towards the right But I don't think it's really
:53:25. > :53:28.going to affect the younger voters. There's more pressing issues that
:53:29. > :53:30.really affect students. Because as you said earlier,
:53:31. > :53:33.we are seeing this all the time now. It's sad and it's very
:53:34. > :53:37.shocking, but it's not For both of you, do you think
:53:38. > :53:41.that this event that has happened in Manchester would change the way
:53:42. > :53:45.that you think about voting? My mindset, personally,
:53:46. > :53:47.is already set in terms As we saw with the referendum last
:53:48. > :53:55.year, the problem where sadly Jo Cox was murdered in cold blood, that
:53:56. > :53:59.didn't change the referendum result. Because nobody played on that,
:54:00. > :54:02.because it was a horrible and tragic I don't believe it is the position
:54:03. > :54:08.of politicians to play on the hearts and minds of the electorate,
:54:09. > :54:11.with tragic events. Instead, we should be focusing
:54:12. > :54:14.on policies that work Do you think it will have an impact
:54:15. > :54:19.in terms of community relations, about the way we talk
:54:20. > :54:25.about divisions in our society? It could quite possibly further
:54:26. > :54:29.division depending on how the media choose to portray incidents
:54:30. > :54:35.of the tragic event which occured. We don't want this to be a spring
:54:36. > :54:39.board for the far right, Like, Marine Le Pen
:54:40. > :54:42.got 11 million votes. People celebrated
:54:43. > :54:44.that Macron had won. 11 million votes for someone who's
:54:45. > :54:47.of those views, of that far right. We could either see
:54:48. > :54:52.a resurgence of some sort I feel like the Conservative
:54:53. > :54:57.manifesto is pretty authoritarian already, but we could see them
:54:58. > :55:00.lurching to the right. And pretty much what they want
:55:01. > :55:06.is a blank cheque. And tonight from 7.30,
:55:07. > :55:13.we're hosting a special Facebook debate on the issues for younger
:55:14. > :55:15.voters in this election. We'll hear from different
:55:16. > :55:17.groups of young people about their experiences
:55:18. > :55:19.and what matters most That's at 7.30 tonight on the BBC
:55:20. > :55:36.Look North Yorkshire Facebook page. Definitely worth watching.
:55:37. > :55:40.Interesting you from those young voters, they seem to be concerned of
:55:41. > :55:45.the events of this week and the threat from Terra didn't lead to a
:55:46. > :55:52.lurch to the far right politics. Do you identify with that? I thought
:55:53. > :55:55.that last young man to speak was brilliant in talking about Marine Le
:55:56. > :55:59.Pen and because she got and connecting that possibly to
:56:00. > :56:04.terrorism in France. I hope and pray that this will not happen in this
:56:05. > :56:07.from Hallam University are a great from Hallam University are a great
:56:08. > :56:10.credit to that university. They put credit to that university. They put
:56:11. > :56:17.forward some excellent points and I agree with everything that was said.
:56:18. > :56:20.I don't know whether you remember on Friday, Jeremy Corbyn made a speech
:56:21. > :56:24.which appeared to link British foreign policy to terrorism. Was he
:56:25. > :56:29.right to make that speech? I think we need to have a conversation, for
:56:30. > :56:35.example, Libya today is the lawless land. I don't think we can associate
:56:36. > :56:40.that to what happened. Going back to what the student said, let's not
:56:41. > :56:44.forget in our darkest hour, the days that followed, the communities came
:56:45. > :56:54.together. It was humbling for us to see. People were unified, not been
:56:55. > :56:58.divided on race or ethnic lines. I should also point out hate crime has
:56:59. > :56:59.started to go through the roof in the Greater Manchester area. There
:57:00. > :57:02.are implications there and I think what really needs to happen,
:57:03. > :57:05.particularly as the rest of this general election campaign goes on,
:57:06. > :57:12.we don't actually have politicians who start using quite divisive,
:57:13. > :57:16.rhetoric. It is the type of language use are in the Brexit period which
:57:17. > :57:21.gives legitimacy to those division issues, but thankfully we have a
:57:22. > :57:25.democracy which is rooted in diversity. Manchester is an absolute
:57:26. > :57:31.good example for the rest of the country, these kind of issues and
:57:32. > :57:38.atrocities will not divide us. We have seen a lurch to the far right
:57:39. > :57:42.across Europe, it could be said duty fears about terrorism. If the
:57:43. > :57:47.Government doesn't tackle the spread properly, do you fear is similar
:57:48. > :57:52.thing to happen in this country? Extremism of right or left, wherever
:57:53. > :57:54.it is based, arguments about religion or whatever else is
:57:55. > :57:57.unacceptable and in democracies where we have as much freedom for
:57:58. > :58:02.people, particularly for those young people as they grew up, we need to
:58:03. > :58:06.maintain that freedom and it's always a difficult balance to
:58:07. > :58:09.maintain, but you cannot do that, you cannot do that unless you
:58:10. > :58:14.actually take action against those that advocate violence from whatever
:58:15. > :58:18.political position they take. Incidentally, just on Libya, I would
:58:19. > :58:24.just say this, Libya under the dictator Gaddafi was a major
:58:25. > :58:28.exporter of terrorism, organising terrorism, long before he was
:58:29. > :58:33.removed. That was partly what the regime was involved in, everyone
:58:34. > :58:37.knows that. That was a different type of terrorism. Whatever it is,
:58:38. > :58:41.extremism is dangerous but we need to maintain freedom of speech. We
:58:42. > :58:47.just have to be careful that it does not end up with young people being
:58:48. > :58:51.radicalised, young people then turning into violence, because the
:58:52. > :58:54.very thing they want to argue for, freedom and democracy, is then under
:58:55. > :58:59.threat. That is something which politicians have got to grapple
:59:00. > :59:03.with. Can I ask you about Jeremy Corbyn's speech on Friday where he
:59:04. > :59:08.linked British foreign policy to the causes of terrorism? Was he right? I
:59:09. > :59:13.think that's completely wrong. Everyone has got it wrong, because
:59:14. > :59:18.the Prime Minister portrayed it as that, what you are saying. He didn't
:59:19. > :59:24.say that, he didn't try to see that he was excusing the terrorist act
:59:25. > :59:28.last Monday. He wasn't excusing it in any way whatsoever. I know Jeremy
:59:29. > :59:32.well enough to know that it wouldn't be his view, he would never see
:59:33. > :59:36.that. What he was saying was that there is certain parts of the world
:59:37. > :59:42.that are completely lawless and one of them is Libya. And what happened
:59:43. > :59:48.last Monday really did come from Libya, where there is a lack of law,
:59:49. > :59:52.a lack of Government. It is a very difficult country, a very different
:59:53. > :59:59.country, perhaps it was better when Gaddafi was there, I am not sure. It
:00:00. > :00:03.is a major exporter of terrorism for many years under Gaddafi, we have to
:00:04. > :00:06.be part of the world scene, we have to intervene and take our
:00:07. > :00:11.responsible party maintain democracy and freedom. If the country just
:00:12. > :00:16.simply blames whatever is going on right now with historic events and
:00:17. > :00:20.the way that I suspect some political leaders have been doing
:00:21. > :00:24.recently, I think the big mistake. Very briefly, how is this going to
:00:25. > :00:27.affect the election campaign know, do you believe? I don't think it
:00:28. > :00:32.will affect the outcome of the election campaign. We have got
:00:33. > :00:36.principally two main parties here, the Conservatives and Labour, and I
:00:37. > :00:40.expect them to be very responsible and listen to the rest of this
:00:41. > :00:42.campaign so it doesn't take an ugly turn. We have to leave it there,
:00:43. > :00:45.thank you for your thoughts today. Before we go back to London,
:00:46. > :00:48.we'll remember a week when people across Yorkshire and Lincolnshire
:00:49. > :02:17.fell silent to remember Now, after the Manchester attack,
:02:18. > :02:20.will the final week of election campaigning different in tone from
:02:21. > :02:28.what came before? My panel are here. Tim Marshall, it will be very front
:02:29. > :02:33.of Centre for the next few days. Is that a good thing for the election
:02:34. > :02:37.if it is going to be framed to who do you feel more safe with? It is
:02:38. > :02:43.inevitable but I think it will only be part of the election. As I said
:02:44. > :02:48.before the opt out, for many voters this is also about economics,
:02:49. > :02:53.unemployment. It is not all about Brexit, nor is it only about
:02:54. > :02:58.security. What it will do, I hope, is get the tone of the debate right.
:02:59. > :03:02.Although I have already seen the tone being lowered. I wasn't
:03:03. > :03:08.impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech last week blaming it on a foreign
:03:09. > :03:14.policy, which is a wafer thin analysis of what is going on.
:03:15. > :03:22.Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I think the argument is utter
:03:23. > :03:26.nonsense. I don't want to attack just one side. The Conservative
:03:27. > :03:30.party, I've forgotten which minister has already said that we would be
:03:31. > :03:35.safer under a Tory Prime Minister, it has got nothing to do with Labour
:03:36. > :03:45.or Tory government, the next Islamic attack. It is to do with jihadist
:03:46. > :03:49.ideology, not party policies. You raise an important issue about tone.
:03:50. > :03:52.It also points to a broader argument, one we were having
:03:53. > :03:59.earlier, has politics been two courses with this issue of
:04:00. > :04:05.extremism? Has the conversation about it tiptoed around some of the
:04:06. > :04:09.sensitive issues? And by the media. You highlight the problem of this
:04:10. > :04:17.being part of the election campaign by saying, has politics been too
:04:18. > :04:21.cautious? Who do you mean by politics? And in an election
:04:22. > :04:28.campaign there is a duty to be a divide, and adamant about values,
:04:29. > :04:32.policies etc. Security is an issue that transcends those political
:04:33. > :04:39.divides. So I think it is deeply unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a
:04:40. > :04:46.tragedy occurred. But if you ask me does it help or enhance an election
:04:47. > :04:53.debate? Emphatically not. A tragic event brings politics, as you call
:04:54. > :04:57.it, together. Security is an issue that is complex and doesn't divide
:04:58. > :05:04.neatly. Elections are political battles, by definition. So I think
:05:05. > :05:11.the coming together of this, a tragedy occurred anyway, but it is
:05:12. > :05:16.an unfortunate context. Do you agree or do you think this is a time to
:05:17. > :05:21.talk about these issues? Is it a time to review the level of
:05:22. > :05:24.argument? This is a political debate. I personally think the
:05:25. > :05:29.politicians should have been out and about on Wednesday. There is no
:05:30. > :05:35.wrong time to get it right. We mustn't let the terrorists affect
:05:36. > :05:42.our way of life. But they have when we disrupt the election campaign. It
:05:43. > :05:47.may be party political. But for a lot of voters, including me, I want
:05:48. > :05:53.to hear from party leaders. What do you plan to do about this? Right
:05:54. > :05:56.now, I've not heard anything that suggests any of these parties have
:05:57. > :06:01.got to grips with the real problem, which is that we are not actually
:06:02. > :06:03.tackling the problem in our midst. Douglas Murray touched on it
:06:04. > :06:11.earlier. We have not even come to grips with the scale of the problem.
:06:12. > :06:18.Does Labour have a grip -- Power Point in terms of terrorist
:06:19. > :06:23.legislation? It is complicated. And not all of it has worked or is used
:06:24. > :06:26.enough by government? It is another example where this doesn't work in
:06:27. > :06:32.an election debate because David Davis has opposed a lot of this
:06:33. > :06:35.terrorism legislation. He is now heading Brexit. There is a civil
:06:36. > :06:42.liberties argument which I personally have doubts about. Again,
:06:43. > :06:49.it brings people together from the major parties. And Corbyn didn't
:06:50. > :06:52.actually say it was the cause of terrorism, British foreign policy,
:06:53. > :06:56.but it helped to facilitate terrorism, which is a different
:06:57. > :07:00.argument. Again, that would be supported by some Tories as well.
:07:01. > :07:04.That is why it is difficult in an election campaign for this issue to
:07:05. > :07:09.dominate. The front page of the Sunday Times talks about a campaign
:07:10. > :07:13.relaunch, which may not, grow as a great surprise following the social
:07:14. > :07:20.care fiasco. Do we know what that will entail? It sounds like Boris
:07:21. > :07:24.Johnson will play a role. The whole point is it was all about Theresa
:07:25. > :07:28.May and it turns out that is not quite good enough. The more we have
:07:29. > :07:32.seen of Theresa May, the less impressive she has looked. Certainly
:07:33. > :07:37.the Andrew Neil interview just repeating the same thing again and
:07:38. > :07:41.again. Voters don't like that. They like people who are honest and
:07:42. > :07:44.actually engage with them. When we see beat interviews in the next few
:07:45. > :07:49.days, I think it will be interesting to see if she changes tack and tries
:07:50. > :07:55.to engage with what people are asking. If it is back to leadership
:07:56. > :08:03.and Brexit, and the economy, will that be more comfortable ground? I
:08:04. > :08:10.think so. I understand framing it in terms of Brexit. But she has got to
:08:11. > :08:14.broaden it out. I think that is why she is broadening it out. I don't
:08:15. > :08:22.think the tragic events will absolutely dominate. That would be a
:08:23. > :08:26.small victory for terrorism. This is a country of 65 million people with
:08:27. > :08:33.an awful lot of issues. We have 65 million votes, well, 65 million
:08:34. > :08:38.people with opinions in two weeks. It is quite a long campaign. There
:08:39. > :08:44.is still time to go. What do you think Labour will be focusing on
:08:45. > :08:48.from now on? I would imagine they will look very closely at where they
:08:49. > :08:54.are well ahead in the opinion polls and focus on that relentlessly.
:08:55. > :08:59.Public services, NHS etc. And try to get it off as soon as possible from
:09:00. > :09:03.security and fees is used which, on one level at least, appear to be a
:09:04. > :09:07.gift to the Conservatives. I assume that is what they are going to do.
:09:08. > :09:13.But this is a very unpredictable campaign where nothing has gone
:09:14. > :09:18.according to plan. Let's look ahead. On Wednesday evening we have got an
:09:19. > :09:23.election debate. It is in Cambridge. Leaders of some of the parties.
:09:24. > :09:28.Amber Rudd will be representing the Conservatives. We don't know yet who
:09:29. > :09:32.will represent Labour. Today we have had Amber Road and Diane Abbott
:09:33. > :09:38.against each other on Andrew Marr. Let's have a look. I think there is
:09:39. > :09:42.something to be said for a Home Secretary who has actually worked in
:09:43. > :09:46.the Home Office. I work in the home office for nearly three years as a
:09:47. > :09:50.graduate trainee. This government has always felt that urgency. That
:09:51. > :09:54.is why we have been putting in additional money. It is significant
:09:55. > :09:59.that the commission for extremism in the manifesto was put in before
:10:00. > :10:04.Manchester. We need to do more. You voted against prescribing those
:10:05. > :10:07.groups. Because there were groups on that list I deemed to be dissidents
:10:08. > :10:12.rather than terrorist organisations. We are making good progress with the
:10:13. > :10:18.companies who put in place encryption. We will continue to
:10:19. > :10:22.build on that. It was 34 years ago. I had a rather splendid Afro at the
:10:23. > :10:28.time. I don't have the same hairstyle. And I don't have the same
:10:29. > :10:32.views. It is 34 years on. The hairstyle has gone. Some of the
:10:33. > :10:39.views have gone. So you no longer, you regret what you said about the
:10:40. > :10:44.IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the views have gone. I would say to
:10:45. > :10:49.Diane Abbott that I have changed my hairstyle are few times in 34 years
:10:50. > :10:54.but I have not changed my view of how we keep the British public safe.
:10:55. > :10:58.Let's get away from hairstyle sides talk about the prospect of the two
:10:59. > :11:03.of them taking part in the election debate. Would you like to see that?
:11:04. > :11:09.On one level I would like to see it and another the level I would like
:11:10. > :11:14.to see an intelligent debate. I'm glad I never had an Afro or
:11:15. > :11:19.supported the IRA. Whenever Diane Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a
:11:20. > :11:24.radio studio, Labour haemorrhage votes. She cannot say things like my
:11:25. > :11:31.regret supporting this or that legislation. She is an absolute
:11:32. > :11:42.disaster. If Labour put her up, they are beyond mad. Who do you think
:11:43. > :11:47.Labour should put up? By the way, I did have an Afro! I based my whole
:11:48. > :11:54.log on Kevin Keegan and it was good. That is the wrong question. I will
:11:55. > :12:04.explain why. The Labour campaign, it seems to me there were only five or
:12:05. > :12:08.six people put up. That is the fault of others who refused to take part.
:12:09. > :12:12.It also shows the degree to which the current leadership can only rely
:12:13. > :12:17.on five or six people. I would imagine we are talking about a pool
:12:18. > :12:21.of five or six people. As for my judgment as to who the best public
:12:22. > :12:24.performer is in that pool, it would be by some margin John McDonnell,
:12:25. > :12:33.who is a very good interviewee and performer. I think he is a very good
:12:34. > :12:41.performer. It would come back to the economy at some point, presumably.
:12:42. > :12:46.But then it comes back to the IRA. I don't think the debate will be very
:12:47. > :12:50.illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd is there, Diane Abbott should be
:12:51. > :12:54.there. I think the leaders should be debating. Some people say it is
:12:55. > :12:58.froth. I think the leader -- the electorate gets a sense of the
:12:59. > :13:03.leaders. On haircuts, I would like to thank both of them are talking
:13:04. > :13:06.about the haircuts. I am looking forward to tomorrow's papers and the
:13:07. > :13:13.theme that will run through the week. Let's not finish on the hair.
:13:14. > :13:21.Thank you very much for being our guests. That is it for today. Thank
:13:22. > :13:27.the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil will be back next weekend. And I
:13:28. > :13:31.will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday. That is at midday with more daily
:13:32. > :13:33.politics. In the meantime, have a very lovely bank holiday. From all
:13:34. > :14:08.of us here, bye-bye. As voters prepare to go to the polls
:14:09. > :14:12.to choose who represents them