05/11/2017

0:00:37 > 0:00:39Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:39 > 0:00:41I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:41 > 0:00:44And this is your guide to everything that's happening in the world

0:00:44 > 0:00:45of politics this Sunday morning.

0:00:45 > 0:00:48On today's show:

0:00:48 > 0:00:51Theresa May's right-hand man Damian Green has denied claims that

0:00:51 > 0:00:57police found pornography on a computer in his office in 2008.

0:00:57 > 0:01:00He says the allegations by a former police chief are "political smears."

0:01:00 > 0:01:03With claims of sexual harassment at Westminster growing by the day,

0:01:03 > 0:01:05can either Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

0:01:05 > 0:01:07to grips with a scandal threatening to engulf

0:01:07 > 0:01:11the entire political class?

0:01:11 > 0:01:18We'll ask a minister and senior member of the Shadow Cabinet.

0:01:18 > 0:01:21And some on the left of politics have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:21 > 0:01:23Later on the Sunday Politics: have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:23 > 0:01:26Does the school academies system need a radical shake-up?

0:01:26 > 0:01:29Why the collapse of this Yorkshire chain

0:01:29 > 0:01:31has prompted some serious questions.

0:01:44 > 0:01:46So there's plenty of explosive political news

0:01:46 > 0:01:49to get you in the mood for bonfire night -

0:01:49 > 0:01:51and with me as usual, three journalists who know quite

0:01:51 > 0:01:53a bit about parliamentary plots - if rather less about

0:01:53 > 0:01:54gunpowder and treason.

0:01:54 > 0:01:57It's Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

0:01:57 > 0:02:00So what are the big political stories making the news this Sunday?

0:02:00 > 0:02:08Well, the papers are brimming with further allegations against MPs

0:02:08 > 0:02:11in the sexual harassment scandal, which according to one newspaper has

0:02:11 > 0:02:12left Westminster frozen in fear.

0:02:12 > 0:02:14First Secretary of State Damian Green, already under

0:02:14 > 0:02:16investigation over allegations - which he strongly denies -

0:02:16 > 0:02:19of propositioning a female activist, is the subject of new claims that

0:02:19 > 0:02:21police discovered pornography on a computer in his Westminster

0:02:21 > 0:02:23office in 2008.

0:02:23 > 0:02:25Mr Green denies the allegation, made by former senior

0:02:25 > 0:02:27police officer Bob Quick, saying it is "completely untrue,"

0:02:27 > 0:02:35and adding that he is the victim of disreputable "political smears."

0:02:35 > 0:02:38Michael Fallon, who resigned as Defence Secretary this week

0:02:38 > 0:02:40over his past behaviour, is also subject to fresh claims

0:02:40 > 0:02:46he lunged at a female journalist in 2003 after a lunch.

0:02:46 > 0:02:48Labour is facing questions over its handling of sexual

0:02:48 > 0:02:55misconduct allegations.

0:02:55 > 0:02:57This morning Shadow Cabinet minister Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

0:02:57 > 0:03:00on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew about alleged misconduct by MP

0:03:00 > 0:03:08Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted to the Shadow Cabinet.

0:03:08 > 0:03:10And there is a reminder that normal political life goes on,

0:03:10 > 0:03:13with reports that the Cabinet has agreed to put housing at the heart

0:03:13 > 0:03:15of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

0:03:15 > 0:03:17Well, let's hear from Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

0:03:17 > 0:03:20she was on the Andrew Marr Show earlier talking about the claims

0:03:20 > 0:03:22against her Cabinet colleague Damian Green.

0:03:22 > 0:03:29Absolutely not. I think it is something that will take place in

0:03:29 > 0:03:34terms of clearing out Westminster of that sort of behaviour, and I think

0:03:34 > 0:03:36that Westminster afterwards, including the Government, will be

0:03:36 > 0:03:45better for it. When we are confident that men and women can work any

0:03:45 > 0:03:47respectful environment and people on the receiving end of abuse of power

0:03:47 > 0:03:54can come forward. That will be a positive thing.

0:03:54 > 0:03:58Let's see what our panel make of this fairly explosive week. Good

0:03:58 > 0:04:05morning to all of you. Starting with you, Steve. Not a party political

0:04:05 > 0:04:08issue but the Tories are in Government. How much harder for them

0:04:08 > 0:04:13is it an Labour?Always harder when you are in Government because it

0:04:13 > 0:04:16makes governing almost impossible. And the wider context is a Prime

0:04:16 > 0:04:19Minister who lost her overall majority a few months ago and

0:04:19 > 0:04:23actually that is the context of everything. When you are having to

0:04:23 > 0:04:25deal with the scandal of such unpredictability, where the

0:04:25 > 0:04:37terms are so imprecise, it is a "lunge", a resignation issue, to use

0:04:37 > 0:04:41that term, and nightmare. I don't think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

0:04:41 > 0:04:47bring down governments, but it makes governing for Theresa May a form of

0:04:47 > 0:04:50political health.Isabel Oakeshott, Damian Green has denied all

0:04:50 > 0:04:53allegations made against him, but there are more this morning. He is

0:04:53 > 0:04:59being investigated by the Cabinet Office at the moment. If Theresa May

0:04:59 > 0:05:02were to effectively lose her Deputy Prime Minister, has serious without

0:05:02 > 0:05:07the?I think very serious indeed. I think it is very significant and

0:05:07 > 0:05:11strange he was not defended in the Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

0:05:11 > 0:05:15clip we saw today, she didn't say I am certain he will survive, and I am

0:05:15 > 0:05:19beginning to feel that Damian may not survive this. We don't know

0:05:19 > 0:05:23whether it is the last of the allegations that may come out in

0:05:23 > 0:05:27relation to him. It seems to me that the allegations were previously of a

0:05:27 > 0:05:33rather minor order, but this seems to have escalated. And I think one

0:05:33 > 0:05:36of the big problems for Theresa May, and there are the many at the

0:05:36 > 0:05:42moment, for months we have been saying that this Government has no

0:05:42 > 0:05:45bandwidth to do anything except Brexit and right now she can't even

0:05:45 > 0:05:49do Brexit. What is the point of it all?It is important to make clear

0:05:49 > 0:05:53not only that Damian Green denies all of these allegations, but the

0:05:53 > 0:05:59computer mentioned was in a shared office so there is no reason it

0:05:59 > 0:06:03would definitely be his # No guarantee it would definitely

0:06:03 > 0:06:15be his. But we have had two MPs on television this morning, Anna

0:06:15 > 0:06:20Soubry, saying he should stand down. There is an awful lot going on here.

0:06:20 > 0:06:26It is not just a pretty awful sexual harassment scandal. There are also

0:06:26 > 0:06:29without a doubt MPs, police officers, going about settling

0:06:29 > 0:06:34scores. For me I have to say for our pretty discredited police officer

0:06:34 > 0:06:38Bob Quick, to make accusations against serving Cabinet minister, to

0:06:38 > 0:06:46suggest he should go for extreme pornography on computers he may or

0:06:46 > 0:06:49may not have known, it may be extremely distasteful but it is

0:06:49 > 0:06:52alarming for democracy to have ex-police officers like this coming

0:06:52 > 0:06:56in and trying to play with democracy. Some politicians are also

0:06:56 > 0:06:59meeting claims, some for the right reasons to get the allegations out

0:06:59 > 0:07:02there and so on but others for their own agendas and all of this puts the

0:07:02 > 0:07:06Prime Minister in an unbelievably hard situation. I agree with Steve

0:07:06 > 0:07:10and Isabel, she desperately needs two show leadership in all this, but

0:07:10 > 0:07:13every way she could turn there are incredible downfalls, people blaming

0:07:13 > 0:07:17her for trying to get to the bottom of all this. It is very people who

0:07:17 > 0:07:22she is relying on for her leadership, the very Tory MPs the

0:07:22 > 0:07:25support she can't lose.It is not just the Tory party and of course

0:07:25 > 0:07:28Jeremy Corbyn will be making a speech later today where this will

0:07:28 > 0:07:32inevitably and there are accusations about how the senior leadership in

0:07:32 > 0:07:37the Labour Party have handled this. What about that situation?Yes, but

0:07:37 > 0:07:40the Government is much harder because you are meant to be doing

0:07:40 > 0:07:4410,000 other things at the same time. This is about a deregulated

0:07:44 > 0:07:48work environment. For all those who say, I hate the way Britain is too

0:07:48 > 0:07:50regulated, this is what happens in a deregulated work environment. The

0:07:50 > 0:08:00House of Commons has no HR or whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

0:08:00 > 0:08:03actually don't have much power but they do have power over who the

0:08:03 > 0:08:07point and how to treat them. I think this is the way forward in terms of

0:08:07 > 0:08:10the practical outcome, but it is across the political spectrum.But

0:08:10 > 0:08:16it is unclear what it will be. Can the party sort this out?I'm not

0:08:16 > 0:08:19sure I entirely agree, Steve, you cannot regulate all human

0:08:19 > 0:08:23interaction and a lot of these stories have been about interactions

0:08:23 > 0:08:28between politicians and journalists alike, who have gone out for lunch,

0:08:28 > 0:08:33chosen to drink, presumably to create an informal atmosphere, and

0:08:33 > 0:08:38at what point is a step towards somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

0:08:38 > 0:08:43the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You can't regulate that sort of thing.

0:08:43 > 0:08:48Throughout the programme will come back to some of these things and how

0:08:48 > 0:08:49they might be regulated.

0:08:49 > 0:08:51Now, the Home Secretary has also today been talking

0:08:51 > 0:08:54about what she calls the "moral duty" of social media companies

0:08:54 > 0:08:57to stop child sexual exploitation, ahead of a meeting with her US

0:08:57 > 0:08:58counterparts this week.

0:08:58 > 0:09:01We're joined now by the Home Office minister Sarah Newton -

0:09:01 > 0:09:03she's in our Truro studio.

0:09:03 > 0:09:06Thanks very much for coming in to speak the first night. I want to

0:09:06 > 0:09:09talk to you about the Government's efforts to tackle child pornography,

0:09:09 > 0:09:13but let's pick up on some of the sexual harassment issues at

0:09:13 > 0:09:16Westminster first. Two of your parliamentary colleagues this

0:09:16 > 0:09:19morning saying they think the first Secretary of State Damian Green

0:09:19 > 0:09:26should step down whilst being investigated. Do you agree?Look, he

0:09:26 > 0:09:32has vigorously denied these accusations, and the Cabinet Office

0:09:32 > 0:09:37is investigating these accusations, so we do have processes for when

0:09:37 > 0:09:39ministers have these accusations made against them so they are

0:09:39 > 0:09:44properly investigated. And that is what is going on at the moment.Is

0:09:44 > 0:09:48that process people can be confident in? He is effectively being

0:09:48 > 0:09:54investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one of his colleagues.This is a tried

0:09:54 > 0:09:59and tested process that has stood the test of time, and it is

0:09:59 > 0:10:03important...Has it? Surely what we are learning is it has not stood the

0:10:03 > 0:10:05test of time and that in fact allegations like this have been

0:10:05 > 0:10:10swept under the carpet and ignored for years and years in Westminster,

0:10:10 > 0:10:14exactly what we are learning right now.I think you are conflating two

0:10:14 > 0:10:18things they are, and what we really do need to do is look at the whole

0:10:18 > 0:10:22range of allegations people have been making, and make sure

0:10:22 > 0:10:26Parliament is a safe place for people to work, a respectful

0:10:26 > 0:10:31environment for people who have been subjected to harassment or bullying

0:10:31 > 0:10:34or inappropriate behaviour, so that they feel confident to come forward

0:10:34 > 0:10:38knowing they will be listened to, that there will be an open and

0:10:38 > 0:10:41transparent and fair to everyone concerned process for getting to the

0:10:41 > 0:10:45bottom of it, and that is exactly what the Prime Minister and the

0:10:45 > 0:10:50Leader of the Cows have set out, Prime Minister's meeting with all

0:10:50 > 0:10:55the leaders of the parties tomorrow to set out a proper process so we

0:10:55 > 0:11:04can modernise the work environment at Westminster -- leader of the

0:11:04 > 0:11:07House have set out.You think Damian Green should remain in the Cabinet

0:11:07 > 0:11:13well being investigated?That will be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

0:11:13 > 0:11:17thinks the misdemeanours have a basis, that he should stand aside,

0:11:17 > 0:11:23that will be the recommendation. I will not second the inquiry on what

0:11:23 > 0:11:27Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.You were in the Whips' Office yourself for a

0:11:27 > 0:11:31year. And much has been said this week of the whips being in receipt

0:11:31 > 0:11:35of a lot of information about bad behaviour, and instead of reporting

0:11:35 > 0:11:39it to authorities they were using it as ammunition. Was that your

0:11:39 > 0:11:45experience?Absolutely not. I was at the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

0:11:45 > 0:11:48yes, I heard about the rumours of a black spreadsheet, and I can

0:11:48 > 0:11:52certainly say I never saw such a thing. How I went about my business

0:11:52 > 0:11:57as a whip is really twofold. It is quite a technical job in many ways,

0:11:57 > 0:12:03about of the Government through the House, working with the House

0:12:03 > 0:12:06authorities, the opposition. Also... Did you ever hear rumours of these

0:12:06 > 0:12:15people's bad behaviour?Sorry?Did you ever hear rumours of MPs

0:12:15 > 0:12:18misbehaving, sexual harassment, allegations are that?If anybody had

0:12:18 > 0:12:22brought a complaint to me about the behaviour of one of the MPs who were

0:12:22 > 0:12:27in my flock, I would take that really seriously, but bull-mac, that

0:12:27 > 0:12:30didn't happen.You said nobody brought you a complaint. Did you

0:12:30 > 0:12:36hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't happen.About the members of my

0:12:36 > 0:12:40flock? Absolutely not.Is that the MPs you were specifically in charge

0:12:40 > 0:12:47of?I did not have that experience at all.Let's move on and talk about

0:12:47 > 0:12:50the Home Secretary's trip to Washington this week, where she will

0:12:50 > 0:12:54urge tech companies to go further and faster on online child abuse. We

0:12:54 > 0:12:58have heard a lot from this Government urging these companies to

0:12:58 > 0:13:02do something. One specific ideas of what they could do, do you have a

0:13:02 > 0:13:05clear idea of what you are asking from tech companies?Absolutely

0:13:05 > 0:13:11right. As you know, this horrendous crime of child sexual exploitation

0:13:11 > 0:13:16and grooming is constantly evolving as the opportunities for the

0:13:16 > 0:13:20perpetrators arise. They are now using live streaming, different

0:13:20 > 0:13:24sorts of platforms, which are largely controlled by the big

0:13:24 > 0:13:29companies in America. What we really want them to do is to step up and

0:13:29 > 0:13:34use their huge expertise, used the huge money they have got, to help

0:13:34 > 0:13:38find technological solutions to read their sites and rid the opportunity

0:13:38 > 0:13:41of these paedophiles to be able to groom young people. We need the

0:13:41 > 0:13:49politicians in America to exert pressure, as well as other

0:13:49 > 0:13:51companies, because these are global problems. We are not going to solve

0:13:51 > 0:13:55this problem in the UK alone. We have made a lot of progress, working

0:13:55 > 0:14:00with Facebook and other companies as well, but we really need to keep one

0:14:00 > 0:14:05step ahead of the technology, one step ahead of the perpetrators, who

0:14:05 > 0:14:10are using these opportunities to commit horrendous crimes.

0:14:10 > 0:14:14It was back in 2014 Theresa May for the Internet companies to do more in

0:14:14 > 0:14:18terms of child abuse online and we have not seen significant action,

0:14:18 > 0:14:21and it does not appear these kind of calls from the Government actually

0:14:21 > 0:14:27make difference. Well, at the moment we are seeing

0:14:27 > 0:14:32the police being able to make about 400 arrests per month, about 500

0:14:32 > 0:14:35children being safeguarded. The Government itself is investing a lot

0:14:35 > 0:14:42of money in new technology like the project Arachnid, and making sure

0:14:42 > 0:14:45the police have the specialist resources they need to go

0:14:45 > 0:14:48undercover, and absolutely find these perpetrators and bring them to

0:14:48 > 0:14:51justice, but we do need to constantly have the engagement and

0:14:51 > 0:14:55support of the companies themselves to invest in further technologies to

0:14:55 > 0:14:59prevent this from happening. As you say, we have made progress but we

0:14:59 > 0:15:03need to see yet more.Sarah Newton, thank you very much for speaking to

0:15:03 > 0:15:06us today.

0:15:06 > 0:15:07Michael Fallon's decision to resign this week,

0:15:07 > 0:15:12saying his past conduct with women fell short of the standard expected

0:15:12 > 0:15:15of the Armed Forces, led to something of a minor reshuffle.

0:15:15 > 0:15:17And the Prime Minister took Westminster by surprise

0:15:17 > 0:15:19when she announced his replacement, former Chief Whip and relative

0:15:19 > 0:15:21newcomer to the ministerial ranks, Gavin Williamson.

0:15:21 > 0:15:26Here he is speaking on the day of his appointment.

0:15:26 > 0:15:28It's an immense privilege to have been appointed Secretary

0:15:28 > 0:15:30of State for Defence, and what we need to be doing

0:15:30 > 0:15:33is continuing to focus on countering Daesh,

0:15:33 > 0:15:35making sure that our national security is at the forefront

0:15:35 > 0:15:38of everything that we do, and we have some of the world's

0:15:38 > 0:15:40greatest armed services, and it's such a privilege to be able

0:15:40 > 0:15:47to work with them.

0:15:47 > 0:15:49Gavin Williamson, who you saw there, arrives at the Ministry of Defence

0:15:49 > 0:15:51at a challenging time for UK defence.

0:15:51 > 0:15:53The Government has promised an above-inflation increase

0:15:53 > 0:15:55in spending every year but the Ministry of Defence

0:15:55 > 0:15:57is already committed to finding £20 billion of savings

0:15:57 > 0:15:59over the next ten years.

0:15:59 > 0:16:01The Cabinet Office is currently conducting a security review

0:16:01 > 0:16:03which will look at military capabilities and funding up to 2022,

0:16:03 > 0:16:05while there are continuing reports of shortages

0:16:05 > 0:16:10of manpower and equipment.

0:16:10 > 0:16:12And if Labour were to win power, questions persist over

0:16:12 > 0:16:15what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership would mean for defence budget

0:16:15 > 0:16:17and the traditional cornerstones of UK defence policy

0:16:17 > 0:16:18like Trident and Nato.

0:16:18 > 0:16:19Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:19 > 0:16:23secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:23 > 0:16:25Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:25 > 0:16:30secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:30 > 0:16:35Let's talk about defence spending first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:35 > 0:16:38same thing this Government has which is an above inflation increase in

0:16:38 > 0:16:43spending every year?We've been absolutely clear about that. First

0:16:43 > 0:16:48and foremost we'd meet our commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:48 > 0:16:55of GDP on defence as is our Nato commitment and we would match the

0:16:55 > 0:16:57Government's year-on-year 0.5% increase above inflation. This is

0:16:57 > 0:17:01really important. Labour's always had a good strong track record of

0:17:01 > 0:17:05spending on defence.Jeremy Corbyn seems to have a different view.

0:17:05 > 0:17:10Speaking at a protest in 2010 he said Labour wanted to fight all the

0:17:10 > 0:17:14cuts except those in the Armed Forces where we want to see a few

0:17:14 > 0:17:18more cuts taking place. He doesn't seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:18 > 0:17:23In the manifesto for this year's election, 2017, he and John

0:17:23 > 0:17:26McDonnell have been absolutely clear we support the exact words I've been

0:17:26 > 0:17:32using now, at least 2% of the spend of GDP spent on defence.Jeremy

0:17:32 > 0:17:37Corbyn's changed his mind on that? He's been very clear about that and

0:17:37 > 0:17:42it was in our manifesto this year. You criticised the Government on

0:17:42 > 0:17:47whether they meet their 2% commitment on defence. You saying

0:17:47 > 0:17:50they were fiddling the figures because they were including

0:17:50 > 0:17:55pensions. You would strip that out and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:55 > 0:17:59on defence which doesn't include pensions?Technically, the

0:17:59 > 0:18:01Government would argue you are allowed to include pensions by the

0:18:01 > 0:18:06Nato rules. But we've been very clear, really, when you're talking

0:18:06 > 0:18:11about defence spending it should mean defence. When you look at the

0:18:11 > 0:18:16last year of the Labour Government we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

0:18:16 > 0:18:21very much committed to looking at what we need in our defence budget

0:18:21 > 0:18:25and looking to the problems they have now where they can't meet the

0:18:25 > 0:18:30commitments they've made.You would sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:30 > 0:18:36In order to live up to these commitments you have to find an

0:18:36 > 0:18:40extra billion for the defence budgets because we're not

0:18:40 > 0:18:43calculating pensions anymore?John McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:43 > 0:18:48are doing. Putting in the conflict resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:48 > 0:18:53kept separate. He is well aware of the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:53 > 0:18:57are certainly very committed to a defence budget that really does make

0:18:57 > 0:19:02a difference.I'm not clear whether you're telling me it will be 2% 69

0:19:02 > 0:19:08spending, excluding pensions?We want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:08 > 0:19:12way Labour always calculate it had up until 2010, not including

0:19:12 > 0:19:16pensions.A significant increase in military spending?We are talking

0:19:16 > 0:19:21about making sure the spending we need is there because, at the

0:19:21 > 0:19:24current situation, we have with the current Government, they are

0:19:24 > 0:19:29overstretched. Even the very caution National Audit Office says they are

0:19:29 > 0:19:35at immense risk of not being able to meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:35 > 0:19:40they have made. Others talk about a black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:40 > 0:19:47£20 billion. There is a real issue we have to address.To you know what

0:19:47 > 0:19:51it will cost, how muchedingsal funds will have to be found?We have to

0:19:51 > 0:19:57rook at what are the needs at the time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:57 > 0:20:01make that 2% commitment not including things which have just

0:20:01 > 0:20:04been brushed in now by the Conservative Government.Let's move

0:20:04 > 0:20:11on to a different aspect of defence. There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:11 > 0:20:14weapons opened at the UN for signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:14 > 0:20:20already signed it. Would an incoming Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:20 > 0:20:23The important point here is there was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:23 > 0:20:28there to be observers from the UK. There should have been at that

0:20:28 > 0:20:33treaty talks.That doesn't change the calculation whether or not an

0:20:33 > 0:20:40incoming Labour Government would sign that treaty?We are committed

0:20:40 > 0:20:45to a strong multi-lateral disarming programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:45 > 0:20:48missing.This is a multilateral approach to try to get rid of

0:20:48 > 0:20:53nuclear weapons. What you say you want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:53 > 0:20:57that treaty?You we have to look at how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:57 > 0:21:01somebody clear we want to de-escalate tensions across the

0:21:01 > 0:21:06world. Work with other nuclear partners to help stop the

0:21:06 > 0:21:10proliferation of nuclear weapons. We want to work with those countries

0:21:10 > 0:21:15who feel very strongly about the treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:15 > 0:21:21have to do that in a multilateral framework.This is a multi-lateral

0:21:21 > 0:21:26disarmament framework. Under the auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:26 > 0:21:29else it could be organised. This is a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:29 > 0:21:34have been a lifelong campaigner for disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:34 > 0:21:40will be the first nuclear power to do so, sign it and lead the way.We

0:21:40 > 0:21:45need to use our position to be responsible and call for responsible

0:21:45 > 0:21:48multi-lateral disarmamentment there was progress made on this in the

0:21:48 > 0:21:50eighties and nineties with considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:50 > 0:21:55to one side and destroyed. We need to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:55 > 0:21:58I don't see any presence by the UK Government at the moment on that

0:21:58 > 0:22:03aagain da. It is not helpful for the nukes leer nations to be separated

0:22:03 > 0:22:09from the non-nuclear nation in the these debates.That's why I don't

0:22:09 > 0:22:13understand why you're not taking the opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:13 > 0:22:17Government would Take The Stand.We should wok together and we should

0:22:17 > 0:22:22use our position as a nuclear power to work for a multilateral

0:22:22 > 0:22:26disarmament programme.You were very clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:26 > 0:22:30Labour Party would keep Trident for the meantime.Abs will yously.We

0:22:30 > 0:22:33know throughout his life, Jeremy Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:33 > 0:22:40it. He signed up to the manifesto saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:40 > 0:22:45changed his minds?The important thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:45 > 0:22:49Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to. We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:49 > 0:22:54is the Labour Party position. Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:54 > 0:22:57Leader really believes in that position?He believes in democracy

0:22:57 > 0:23:00in the party. That is the Labour Party position. I don't see that

0:23:00 > 0:23:04position changing at all. He has said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:04 > 0:23:08that is our Labour Party position. And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:08 > 0:23:13stood on and will continue to stand on.I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:13 > 0:23:18sexual harassment in Westminster. It is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:18 > 0:23:22Party as the Conservative. It was not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:22 > 0:23:25your colleague on The Andrew Marr Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:25 > 0:23:29whether or not the leadership knew about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:29 > 0:23:33Do you know?I absolutely do not know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:33 > 0:23:36why there has to be an investigation. It is extremely

0:23:36 > 0:23:41important to find out what the allegations were, exactly what

0:23:41 > 0:23:46happened, who was told and who told what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:46 > 0:23:50position to see what the situation is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:50 > 0:23:57has been suspended which is the cricket thing to do.Rosie Winterton

0:23:57 > 0:24:02has been outspoken about what she let the leadership know. If it is

0:24:02 > 0:24:05the case the leadership did know about these allegations should he

0:24:05 > 0:24:09have been put into the Shadow Cabinet?The real question is who

0:24:09 > 0:24:15did know what when.But what I'm asking you is...I am anot going to

0:24:15 > 0:24:20speculate whether there was an if or whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:20 > 0:24:24information was transmitted. Was it put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:24 > 0:24:27who was told what, when. Until we have a full investigation it would

0:24:27 > 0:24:32be inappropriate to comment. What is absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:32 > 0:24:36this right for the future. We must have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:36 > 0:24:41with incidents as and when they occur. And we deal with them

0:24:41 > 0:24:44prepperly in a way which gets to the bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:44 > 0:24:49it properly.Why should anyone have confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:49 > 0:24:53treat issues that seriously when, firstly there's a question whether

0:24:53 > 0:24:58they knew about Kelvin hop kips and others have been dissuaded from

0:24:58 > 0:25:03making complaints. Knots just Bex Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:25:03 > 0:25:07was harassed at a party senior figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:07 > 0:25:14it was her own fault. It seems as if there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:14 > 0:25:20Labour to make a complaint.That's why we're having a thorough review

0:25:20 > 0:25:24of procedures. We brought in new procedures in July. We need to

0:25:24 > 0:25:30ensure there's a proper helpline available. We are appointing an

0:25:30 > 0:25:32independent organisation which will deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:32 > 0:25:36nobody has to go to somebody they think might know other people, be

0:25:36 > 0:25:41friends with other people. They can go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:41 > 0:25:46and private. These are often things you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:46 > 0:25:50friends about. We will appoint that organisation and make sure people

0:25:50 > 0:25:55can go there and access to it is made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:55 > 0:25:58important when people come into a job, they know if anything does

0:25:58 > 0:26:02happen, they will be able to complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:26:02 > 0:26:08party members or working in Westminster.Thank you for talking

0:26:08 > 0:26:08to us

0:26:08 > 0:26:10For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:10 > 0:26:12on the left of politics,

0:26:12 > 0:26:14this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:14 > 0:26:16to mark the anniversary of the failed gunpowder

0:26:16 > 0:26:18plot here in Britain, but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:18 > 0:26:21ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries led by Lenin seized power

0:26:21 > 0:26:23and ushered in seven decades of Communist rule.

0:26:23 > 0:26:24For critics, that's something to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:24 > 0:26:26Elizabeth Glinka went to one event in London to find out more.

0:26:31 > 0:26:33The 7th November 1917.

0:26:33 > 0:26:37Red Guards under the leadership of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:37 > 0:26:41Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:41 > 0:26:44This uprising, known popularly as Red October

0:26:44 > 0:26:47because of the difference in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:47 > 0:26:50was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:50 > 0:26:54The winds of socialist change had been blowing for some time.

0:26:54 > 0:26:59The Tsars had resisted reform and millions toiled in a state

0:26:59 > 0:27:01of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:01 > 0:27:05Then war.

0:27:05 > 0:27:09Nearly two million Russians would die.

0:27:09 > 0:27:15The revolution had really begun nine months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:15 > 0:27:21The world's first socialist republic was declared.

0:27:21 > 0:27:23October, well that was the Bolsheviks

0:27:23 > 0:27:28asserting their authority.

0:27:29 > 0:27:33A hundred years on, as this event at the TUC shows,

0:27:33 > 0:27:36there's still plenty of people who want to remember and even

0:27:36 > 0:27:40celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:40 > 0:27:42Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:42 > 0:27:45this is an example of historical development in action,

0:27:45 > 0:27:49the ability of people to club together and be able to affect

0:27:49 > 0:27:50the discourse of history.

0:27:50 > 0:27:53It was people's first attempt at trying to build socialism.

0:27:53 > 0:27:56Although there were many terrible things that happened,

0:27:56 > 0:27:58I think we have to try and draw from experience.

0:27:58 > 0:28:01Jeremy Corbyn's close friend and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:28:01 > 0:28:04was chairing the opening session.

0:28:04 > 0:28:07He didn't want to talk to us but we did manage to speak

0:28:07 > 0:28:13to the daughter of one of the most famous Communists of all time.

0:28:13 > 0:28:16TRANSLATION:It's an historic moment

0:28:16 > 0:28:18which opened up possibilities for further changes

0:28:18 > 0:28:21and allowed other people to strive for a different world.

0:28:21 > 0:28:24A world, which it seems, some are still keen to push for.

0:28:24 > 0:28:27We're growing, so there is obviously a positive reflection.

0:28:27 > 0:28:29There is a lot of negative propaganda that comes

0:28:29 > 0:28:31from the Cold War period.

0:28:31 > 0:28:33It is harder to talk to older people maybe.

0:28:33 > 0:28:35But younger people are quite receptive.

0:28:35 > 0:28:38The events and discussions taking place here today cover a whole range

0:28:38 > 0:28:41of topics from women's rights to the Third World

0:28:41 > 0:28:44and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:44 > 0:28:48But there's much less discussion of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:48 > 0:28:51the purges and the political repression that would come later.

0:28:51 > 0:28:54We wanted to have this conference

0:28:54 > 0:28:57because we wanted to show it in a positive light.

0:28:57 > 0:29:01Whatever one's view of what happened to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:29:01 > 0:29:05the fact is it is important to understand the process

0:29:05 > 0:29:08of revolutionary change for its own sake.

0:29:09 > 0:29:13Red October would usher in 70 years of communism.

0:29:13 > 0:29:16The proletarite would rise, find respect and security.

0:29:16 > 0:29:20But the suppression of the peoples of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:20 > 0:29:24camps and the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions

0:29:24 > 0:29:28of people, make it difficult for many to see that revolution

0:29:28 > 0:29:32as something to celebrate.

0:29:33 > 0:29:35That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:35 > 0:29:37So is the centenary of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:37 > 0:29:39for celebration, or regret?

0:29:39 > 0:29:41Well, to discuss this I'm joined by former Labour

0:29:41 > 0:29:47and Respect MP George Galloway, and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:47 > 0:29:51Good morning. Let me start with you George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:51 > 0:29:56revolution a cause for celebration? With the, if not for the October

0:29:56 > 0:30:00revolution, we'd been conducting this interview in German. Though the

0:30:00 > 0:30:03truth is this interview wouldn't be taking place and we probably

0:30:03 > 0:30:11wouldn't be alive for a variety of reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:11 > 0:30:14back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:14 > 0:30:22elsewhere. If not for the Soviet Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:22 > 0:30:27his successorsness, perhaps until now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:27 > 0:30:31Portugal.You say we wouldn't be able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:31 > 0:30:34former Soviet Union we couldn't have this office either?That's also

0:30:34 > 0:30:42true. But even the...George will be able to say, that of course.Even

0:30:42 > 0:30:46the sun has spots on its face as they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:46 > 0:30:55Union. There is no doubt tremendous abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:55 > 0:31:05suffering but, if not for the transformation, then the Soviet

0:31:05 > 0:31:12Union, Russia's GDP increased from 1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:12 > 0:31:19And the strength that defeated Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:19 > 0:31:22Peter Hitchens, does it offend you there are people celebrating 100

0:31:22 > 0:31:28years since the Russian Revolution? Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:28 > 0:31:33in which I lived, you would not have been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:33 > 0:31:35cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:35 > 0:31:52Government using -- a cynical putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:52 > 0:31:58was the inauguration of an immensely long period of repression,

0:31:58 > 0:32:02brutality, secret police, concentration camps and lies, which

0:32:02 > 0:32:06I am likely to have seen come to an end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:06 > 0:32:09why anybody looking at that disastrous country where so much

0:32:09 > 0:32:11misery was needlessly imposed on so many people for so long could

0:32:11 > 0:32:15possibly celebrate the beginning of it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:15 > 0:32:21and as I say was truly the result of the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:21 > 0:32:23intelligence operations of the Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:23 > 0:32:27to save it skin...But everyone including George Galloway

0:32:27 > 0:32:32acknowledges the tyranny and terror that followed.He doesn't. He gives

0:32:32 > 0:32:35statistics about GDP but fails to mention the people murdered in

0:32:35 > 0:32:42labour

0:32:42 > 0:32:48camp... He was of course formerly a Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:48 > 0:32:52Lenin, which I have not done and neither have I done today. I have

0:32:52 > 0:32:56never been a Communist, unlike Peter Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:56 > 0:33:01celebrate that an entirely different world opened up as a result of the

0:33:01 > 0:33:05events in October 19 17. China, you have just seen their party congress,

0:33:05 > 0:33:10decorated with the iconography of the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:10 > 0:33:13is the most powerful, or soon will be the most powerful country on the

0:33:13 > 0:33:18earth.With one of the most repressive government?I don't think

0:33:18 > 0:33:24that is true. There is repression in China, but...Enormous repression in

0:33:24 > 0:33:28China! How can you possibly argue there is an?China has taken more

0:33:28 > 0:33:33people out of poverty in the last 30 years than any country, resume,

0:33:33 > 0:33:38system, ever has -- how can you possibly argue there is not?All

0:33:38 > 0:33:42despots always argue, trying to distract your attention from the

0:33:42 > 0:33:45mountains of skulls behind them, their supposed economic success,

0:33:45 > 0:33:48which generally does not turn out to be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:48 > 0:33:54Union was an enormous pile of rust by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:54 > 0:33:58complete catastrophe.Yes, that is why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:58 > 0:34:03about the Revolution 100 years ago. Is it possible to separate the two

0:34:03 > 0:34:07events? A popular overthrowing of a government is perhaps different from

0:34:07 > 0:34:12the tyranny and terror that followed.It was not a popular

0:34:12 > 0:34:16overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:16 > 0:34:21we see was a film made afterwards. What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:21 > 0:34:30in the middle of the night in which hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:30 > 0:34:37mentioned...That German connection, a rather more important...Nobody

0:34:37 > 0:34:39has even mentioned during this year until now that there was a Russian

0:34:39 > 0:34:45Revolution. There were two. The first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:45 > 0:34:48overthrowing the old regime, and I think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:48 > 0:34:55second one was a cynical for -- foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:55 > 0:34:58not deserve to be spoken out.Is that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:58 > 0:35:04would have done better than a Bolshevik one?It is not my business

0:35:04 > 0:35:10and entirely counterfactual fiction, if I may...Unlike how you open this

0:35:10 > 0:35:13discussion.That is the most important thing. If not for the

0:35:13 > 0:35:21Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here. Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:21 > 0:35:26world, with its allies -- Adolph Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:26 > 0:35:31and most of the world...The effect of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:31 > 0:35:34Europe was colossal.Let's bring it all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:34 > 0:35:40You were saying earlier you have never been a Leninist, although

0:35:40 > 0:35:46Peter Hitchens confesses he was at one time.Absolutely was a

0:35:46 > 0:35:53Trotskyist, and now nor the complete folly of that particular political

0:35:53 > 0:35:57disposition.John McDonnell in the Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:57 > 0:36:02Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a problem for the Labour Party?I

0:36:02 > 0:36:05would have thought, arts would be more respected now than he has been

0:36:05 > 0:36:11for quite some time as capitalism is collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:11 > 0:36:172008 the Economist itself, the bible of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:17 > 0:36:22Marxist economics and analysis, so I really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:22 > 0:36:31Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only took them four years, 54...It is

0:36:31 > 0:36:39not that.I think we are moving into an era where Governments like the

0:36:39 > 0:36:43Chinese Government are making plans, and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:43 > 0:36:49them, and thus transforming their position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:49 > 0:36:52need to tell you, was just about the most backward place you could

0:36:52 > 0:36:59possibly imagine. And from 1949 to now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:59 > 0:37:07is the world's biggest economy...We are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:37:07 > 0:37:12by China here.I have to put this point in. If China was backward in

0:37:12 > 0:37:161949 it was far more backward by the time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:16 > 0:37:19leap forward and starved millions of people to death in the period of

0:37:19 > 0:37:25economic lunacy. You just don't notice...What George was saying

0:37:25 > 0:37:29they are, and a sense certainly amongst younger voters in this

0:37:29 > 0:37:31country and others, where they are turning against capitalism, they

0:37:31 > 0:37:35don't think it has worked or delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:35 > 0:37:39of Marxist Leninist philosophy is becoming more popular?Let's hope

0:37:39 > 0:37:43not. The fact the current system is failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:43 > 0:37:48the Soviet system, which is demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:48 > 0:37:52own leaders admitted it failed and that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:52 > 0:37:55in the period I was there and why it collapsed. Whatever you might want

0:37:55 > 0:37:58to conclude from examining our position, the Soviet alternative is

0:37:58 > 0:38:01not the thing you want the dues. This was a long period of disaster,

0:38:01 > 0:38:05and I remember at the end of it watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:05 > 0:38:12has never been shown here, and the title means approximately we can't

0:38:12 > 0:38:18go on living like this, and for the first time, the politburo told the

0:38:18 > 0:38:20truth about what life was like in the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:20 > 0:38:23that cinema was weeping because finally they saw the truth being

0:38:23 > 0:38:26told about the dreadful anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:26 > 0:38:30been taught to live for so long. The idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:30 > 0:38:34it seems to me to be verging on the obscene.George, one interesting

0:38:34 > 0:38:39question about this of course, whilst there are events going on in

0:38:39 > 0:38:43London and across the UK to mark this centenary, it is not being

0:38:43 > 0:38:46celebrated in Russia.I was in Russia a couple of weeks ago. There

0:38:46 > 0:38:51is a big debate about whether it ought to be, and many people are

0:38:51 > 0:38:55celebrating it...Vladimir Putin is not. He would want to ignore it.But

0:38:55 > 0:39:00the Communist Party is the second biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:39:00 > 0:39:06the ruling party in China, which, with respect, is not a separate

0:39:06 > 0:39:08thing, because China is continuing the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:08 > 0:39:13rather better at it than the Russians did, but there are many

0:39:13 > 0:39:17people, particularly older, that is true, who think that the era of the

0:39:17 > 0:39:23Soviet Union was better than the very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:23 > 0:39:30succeeded it. So half the world followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:30 > 0:39:37the red banner of Leninism. No one will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:37 > 0:39:41kind that Peter used to proselytise is certainly not coming back, but

0:39:41 > 0:39:47Marxism is going to live on.Let's hope not.Thank you both, gentlemen,

0:39:47 > 0:39:48for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:48 > 0:39:50It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:50 > 0:39:51You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:51 > 0:39:54Coming up on the programme:

0:39:54 > 0:39:57We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:57 > 0:40:00We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:40:00 > 0:40:02It wasn't just Westminster that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:02 > 0:40:04We're asking people in Guildford in Surrey,

0:40:04 > 0:40:04does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

0:40:12 > 0:40:13Hello, good morning.

0:40:13 > 0:40:15You're watching the Sunday Politics for Yorkshire and Lincolnshire.

0:40:15 > 0:40:17Coming up today:

0:40:17 > 0:40:20Does the school academy system need a radical shake-up?

0:40:20 > 0:40:22Why the collapse of this Yorkshire chain

0:40:22 > 0:40:24has prompted some serious questions.

0:40:24 > 0:40:25Well, it's an absolute scandal.

0:40:25 > 0:40:28It's outrageous, what's gone on.

0:40:28 > 0:40:32There's been six years since the school was academised.

0:40:32 > 0:40:35It's been six years of uncertainty.

0:40:35 > 0:40:38And we report from the city that is set to have

0:40:38 > 0:40:39the worst-funded schools in the country.

0:40:39 > 0:40:44You won't be surprised to hear that teachers aren't happy.

0:40:44 > 0:40:46It's not fair on those pupils

0:40:46 > 0:40:51sat in the classroom of 30 plus students,

0:40:51 > 0:40:55where they used to be in smaller class sizes.

0:40:55 > 0:40:56Recent years have seen a large increase

0:40:56 > 0:40:59in the number of schools becoming academies.

0:40:59 > 0:41:02This means they are independent state schools

0:41:02 > 0:41:04which receive their funding direct from central government,

0:41:04 > 0:41:07rather than being run by a local authority.

0:41:07 > 0:41:10But the recent collapse of the Wakefield City Academies Trust -

0:41:10 > 0:41:13which announced it was pulling out of 21 schools across Yorkshire -

0:41:13 > 0:41:16has prompted some to ask whether the academy system

0:41:16 > 0:41:20is still best way of improving school standards.

0:41:20 > 0:41:24Sophia Ewen reports.

0:41:29 > 0:41:33Teachers and governors gather at Westminster.

0:41:33 > 0:41:36They are angry and want answers about why an organisation

0:41:36 > 0:41:40that runs 21 schools in Yorkshire collapsed,

0:41:40 > 0:41:42creating uncertainty for thousands of children.

0:41:42 > 0:41:45Well, it's an absolute scandal.

0:41:45 > 0:41:46The truth should be told.

0:41:46 > 0:41:50There's money that's gone.

0:41:50 > 0:41:52Wakefield City Academies Trust evolved over a five-year period,

0:41:52 > 0:41:55and now manages 21 Yorkshire schools,

0:41:55 > 0:41:58many of which were deemed to be failing.

0:41:58 > 0:42:00The idea was they would benefit from the expertise

0:42:00 > 0:42:05of the original school, Wakefield city Academy.

0:42:05 > 0:42:07This is Goole Academy, one of those 21 schools taken over

0:42:07 > 0:42:12by Wakefield City Academies Trust.

0:42:12 > 0:42:17Just two years ago, the trust was seen as so outstanding,

0:42:17 > 0:42:21it was given money to look into taking over even more schools.

0:42:21 > 0:42:24But, by September this year, as we know, things had changed,

0:42:24 > 0:42:28when the trust asked the Government to step in.

0:42:28 > 0:42:29So what went wrong?

0:42:29 > 0:42:33Well, by the end of August 2016, the trust's deficit had grown

0:42:33 > 0:42:41from £276,000 in 2014 to £1.5 million.

0:42:41 > 0:42:42This confidential report by Chris Pickering,

0:42:42 > 0:42:49who was brought in as the trust's interim CEO in May,

0:42:49 > 0:42:51was written before the announcement that Wakefield City Academies Trust

0:42:51 > 0:42:52was giving up all its schools.

0:42:52 > 0:42:54The report says that leadership at the trust

0:42:54 > 0:42:58was inadequate at all levels, except in some pockets.

0:42:58 > 0:43:04And there was inadequate accountability and a blame culture.

0:43:04 > 0:43:07And just four out of 21 schools were rated good or better.

0:43:07 > 0:43:08It's an absolute scandal.

0:43:08 > 0:43:11It's outrageous, what's gone on.

0:43:11 > 0:43:15There's been six years since the school was academised.

0:43:15 > 0:43:24It's been six years of uncertainty.

0:43:24 > 0:43:27We've had people at the top coming in and out

0:43:27 > 0:43:28like it was a revolving door.

0:43:28 > 0:43:30It's six years of lost opportunities.

0:43:30 > 0:43:31Aside from those failings,

0:43:31 > 0:43:33it emerged that highly controversial payments had been made.

0:43:33 > 0:43:35According to accounts filed at Companies House for 2016,

0:43:35 > 0:43:39the trust paid £460,000 to its former interim Chief Executive

0:43:39 > 0:43:42and his daughter, in the way of payment

0:43:42 > 0:43:47for IT and clerking services over a two-year period.

0:43:47 > 0:43:51Senior leadership costs for five people were £824,000.

0:43:51 > 0:43:55Each of them was paid more than £100,000.

0:43:55 > 0:43:58And the trust paid more than £843,000

0:43:58 > 0:44:03in redundancy and severance payments to get rid of teachers and staff.

0:44:03 > 0:44:05Now some schools in the trust claim they

0:44:05 > 0:44:08have had hundreds of thousands of pounds taken off

0:44:08 > 0:44:13their balance sheets and transferred to the trust's central fund -

0:44:13 > 0:44:17cash they say was vitally important to improve their schools,

0:44:17 > 0:44:21many of which serve children from deprived backgrounds.

0:44:21 > 0:44:25Our concerns get bigger and bigger because there's money that's gone

0:44:25 > 0:44:28that should be spent on education, that's disappeared.

0:44:28 > 0:44:35The DfE have known about this for over 18 months,

0:44:35 > 0:44:38and yet parents and teachers and staff have suddenly found themselves

0:44:38 > 0:44:41in schools that don't have money for books and for paper.

0:44:41 > 0:44:43We are getting information, but it's anonymous and it's secret

0:44:43 > 0:44:46because there's a culture of bullying -

0:44:46 > 0:44:48people have been sacked or threatened with the sack

0:44:48 > 0:44:49if they say anything.

0:44:49 > 0:44:51Parents have been removed from the governing body

0:44:51 > 0:44:54without any kind of reason why except they were asking questions.

0:44:54 > 0:44:57It's a secretive organisation.

0:44:57 > 0:44:58Sunday Politics approached the Department for Education for

0:44:58 > 0:45:02Wakefield City Academies Trust, the Regional Schools Commissioners

0:45:02 > 0:45:05or the Minister to respond to these criticisms.

0:45:05 > 0:45:07No-one was available for an interview.

0:45:07 > 0:45:10But, last week, the Secretary of State for Education,

0:45:10 > 0:45:13Justine Greening, told us this.

0:45:13 > 0:45:14We make no apology for stepping in

0:45:14 > 0:45:18to improve those schools.

0:45:18 > 0:45:20One of the things that the Wakefield Trust itself

0:45:20 > 0:45:23was doing was trying to lift up schools that were already

0:45:23 > 0:45:25not doing a good enough job.

0:45:25 > 0:45:31Wakefield itself has been defeated by those challenges.

0:45:31 > 0:45:32Preferred new trusts have been identified

0:45:32 > 0:45:36for each of the 21 academies in the Wakefield group.

0:45:36 > 0:45:39But critics say some of these trusts are facing similar issues,

0:45:39 > 0:45:42and many are questioning whether the academy system is fit for purpose.

0:45:45 > 0:45:48That was Sophia Ewen reporting.

0:45:48 > 0:45:51We are joined today from Hull by Emma Hardy, the Labour MP

0:45:51 > 0:45:52for Hull West and Hessle.

0:45:52 > 0:45:54And joining me in the studio are John Proctor,

0:45:54 > 0:45:56the Conservative MEP for Yorkshire and the Humber,

0:45:56 > 0:45:59and Terry Wrigley, the editor of the Improving Schools Journal.

0:46:00 > 0:46:02Hello to you all.

0:46:02 > 0:46:05Emma Hardy, in the Labour government years, we saw a huge roll-out

0:46:05 > 0:46:07of the academies programme.

0:46:07 > 0:46:10In fact, your predecessor, as the Hull West MP, Alan Johnson,

0:46:10 > 0:46:11was a huge advocate of academies.

0:46:11 > 0:46:13What's gone wrong?

0:46:13 > 0:46:15Well, many things have gone wrong since then,

0:46:15 > 0:46:18and I think part of the problem has been the acceleration

0:46:18 > 0:46:21of the academies programme and the lack of financial oversight.

0:46:21 > 0:46:23I mean, just this week,

0:46:23 > 0:46:26I was interviewing Anne Spielman, the chief of Ofsted,

0:46:26 > 0:46:28in my role on the Education Select Committee,

0:46:28 > 0:46:33and she was saying that she wants the power to inspect academy chains,

0:46:33 > 0:46:36and this is being blocked by the DfE.

0:46:36 > 0:46:40That is not acceptable.

0:46:40 > 0:46:42It only goes to prove that they know,

0:46:42 > 0:46:44if Ofsted are allowed to inspect these properly,

0:46:44 > 0:46:48we will uncover even more scandals which will be too embarrassing

0:46:48 > 0:46:49for this government.

0:46:49 > 0:46:50John Proctor, there's a big problem here.

0:46:50 > 0:46:54Yorkshire and the Humber has the highest proportion

0:46:54 > 0:46:58of failing academies in England.

0:46:58 > 0:47:00Do you think the academy system in many areas

0:47:00 > 0:47:01is failing our children?

0:47:01 > 0:47:02No, I don't.

0:47:02 > 0:47:04This was a Labour Party policy and proposal that was brought

0:47:04 > 0:47:06about in the first instance.

0:47:06 > 0:47:08There are many, many outstanding academies right across the country

0:47:08 > 0:47:10and here in Yorkshire and the Humber region, in particular,

0:47:10 > 0:47:14there are some stunning examples, and there are many

0:47:14 > 0:47:15which I have seen first-hand myself.

0:47:15 > 0:47:17Clearly, something has gone wrong in this instance,

0:47:18 > 0:47:20and issues need to be addressed.

0:47:20 > 0:47:24That's absolutely clear.

0:47:24 > 0:47:26But when you look at the Wakefield City Academies Trust,

0:47:26 > 0:47:28there were some eye-watering sums of money diverted away

0:47:28 > 0:47:30from school budgets, and many parents are asking,

0:47:30 > 0:47:33"Where is the accountability here?"

0:47:33 > 0:47:39So we are now told, but we clearly didn't know that at the time.

0:47:39 > 0:47:41As I say, something has clearly gone wrong here.

0:47:41 > 0:47:43A full investigation needs to take place.

0:47:43 > 0:47:45What we shouldn't forget, though, is that this academy trust

0:47:45 > 0:47:47grew too fast - 21 different schools in a relatively

0:47:47 > 0:47:52short space of time, spread right across the region as well.

0:47:52 > 0:47:55It clearly shouldn't have been allowed to grow that quickly,

0:47:55 > 0:47:59it clearly got out of control.

0:47:59 > 0:48:03However, the Secretary of State said in the piece that you've just shown

0:48:03 > 0:48:05that what the academies trust was trying to do

0:48:05 > 0:48:07was take control of schools, many of whom were failing

0:48:07 > 0:48:08in the first instance.

0:48:08 > 0:48:11But, I mean, there was a report earlier this year that found

0:48:11 > 0:48:13that that particular chain was dysfunctional

0:48:13 > 0:48:14and had inadequate management.

0:48:14 > 0:48:16That should have landed on the Minister's desk,

0:48:16 > 0:48:20and the Minister should have taken action.

0:48:20 > 0:48:22But, indeed, action was taken - somebody else was brought in

0:48:22 > 0:48:25to take control, try and rescue that academy trust

0:48:25 > 0:48:27and try to bring it back from the brink.

0:48:27 > 0:48:29Unfortunately, that wasn't possible.

0:48:29 > 0:48:32Terry Wrigley, what lessons can be learned from the WCAT saga?

0:48:32 > 0:48:34I think there are local lessons,

0:48:34 > 0:48:40but I also think there are national lessons that can be learned.

0:48:40 > 0:48:43First of all, it's not true to say that the trust simply grew too fast.

0:48:44 > 0:48:48It was pushed into growing.

0:48:48 > 0:48:55The first report of financial maladministration came

0:48:55 > 0:49:01in the summer of 2015, just two years ago.

0:49:01 > 0:49:06Within months of that, the Northern Powerhouse Fund

0:49:06 > 0:49:08was giving the trust £500,000 in order to grow,

0:49:08 > 0:49:10in order to take over more academies.

0:49:10 > 0:49:12Then we have the saga of money being handed

0:49:12 > 0:49:18to the Chief Executive's own family firm, and then we have the saga

0:49:18 > 0:49:22of money being robbed from schools.

0:49:22 > 0:49:27So all of this could have been halted if any notice had been taken

0:49:27 > 0:49:28of the maladministration.

0:49:28 > 0:49:31But what I'm trying to argue is, on a systemwide scale,

0:49:31 > 0:49:40there are problems.

0:49:40 > 0:49:42Emma Hardy, obviously we know bad things have happened

0:49:42 > 0:49:45in certain academy chains, but do we have to be careful,

0:49:45 > 0:49:47you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

0:49:47 > 0:49:50I mean, I know many parents who send children to very good academies,

0:49:51 > 0:49:52which have raised school standards.

0:49:52 > 0:49:54But it's a question of accountability and transparency.

0:49:54 > 0:49:55I mean, this is our money.

0:49:55 > 0:49:56This is taxpayers' money.

0:49:56 > 0:50:00We know schools don't have enough money.

0:50:00 > 0:50:03So the fact that it's been wasted in this way is a scandal.

0:50:03 > 0:50:06I mean, the report that Terry referred to, over £120 million has

0:50:06 > 0:50:10been given from academies to what they call related parties.

0:50:10 > 0:50:14That's people who have direct family association with the academy system.

0:50:14 > 0:50:19Now, that is wrong.

0:50:19 > 0:50:25The Government have attempted to rectify this by increasing

0:50:25 > 0:50:27by increasing the number of Regional Schools Commissioners,

0:50:27 > 0:50:33and instead now they're wasting money on that.

0:50:33 > 0:50:35The budget for the Regional Schools Commissioners has gone

0:50:35 > 0:50:40from 4 million to 26 million, because they know there's a problem.

0:50:40 > 0:50:43Still, they're blocking Ofsted from being able to inspect them.

0:50:43 > 0:50:44I mean, this is a scandal.

0:50:44 > 0:50:46Schools don't have money, children don't have money,

0:50:46 > 0:50:49their money is being wasted and thrown away by this

0:50:49 > 0:50:52unaccountable academy system.

0:50:52 > 0:50:55We love to hear from the Regional Schools Commissioner, I have to say.

0:50:55 > 0:50:57If they're watching, they're more than welcome to sit

0:50:57 > 0:51:00in that chair any time over the next few weeks.

0:51:00 > 0:51:02I mean, this has to be the lesson from this saga,

0:51:03 > 0:51:04hasn't it, John Proctor?

0:51:04 > 0:51:06There has to be greater scrutiny of where the money goes.

0:51:06 > 0:51:08These academy groups, where money is paid to related

0:51:08 > 0:51:10parties, that is just wrong.

0:51:10 > 0:51:11I agree.

0:51:11 > 0:51:13Payments to related parties is wrong, and it should be stopped.

0:51:13 > 0:51:16As has already been mentioned, some action has been taken.

0:51:16 > 0:51:18Perhaps, you could argue, not enough action has been taken.

0:51:18 > 0:51:20What we shouldn't forget, though, is that with the academisation

0:51:20 > 0:51:22programme, we have seen dramatic improvement in attainment

0:51:22 > 0:51:23of many, many schools.

0:51:23 > 0:51:25We shouldn't take that away from anybody, and certainly

0:51:26 > 0:51:27not those academies.

0:51:27 > 0:51:29There were literally hundreds upon hundreds of millions of pounds

0:51:29 > 0:51:32that were wasted and locked away in local education authorities.

0:51:32 > 0:51:40That money wasn't seeing its way to schools.

0:51:40 > 0:51:42We have seen that with the academisation process.

0:51:42 > 0:51:44It has been a good thing, a good proposal.

0:51:44 > 0:51:46I'm delighted Labour actually introduced it, actually.

0:51:46 > 0:51:48We've built it and moved it forward.

0:51:48 > 0:51:50That is not to say that there aren't real issues in this

0:51:50 > 0:51:52particular instance, in relation to Wakefield.

0:51:52 > 0:51:55But, as you say, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.

0:51:55 > 0:51:58I want to come back to this, but we'll have to move on.

0:51:58 > 0:52:01Staying with the school theme, the new national fairer funding

0:52:01 > 0:52:06formula for education was drawn up to level the playing field.

0:52:06 > 0:52:09But it's seen one of our local authorities placed in the unenviable

0:52:09 > 0:52:11position of being the worst funded in the country.

0:52:11 > 0:52:14Pupils in York will get around £4,700 per head,

0:52:14 > 0:52:24compared to Hackney in London, where they will get £7,840.

0:52:25 > 0:52:28It's an increase overall for York, but teachers in the classroom say

0:52:28 > 0:52:29the sums just don't add up.

0:52:29 > 0:52:30Gemma Dillon reports.

0:52:30 > 0:52:33OK, so, essentially what's happening is we've got a change in funding.

0:52:33 > 0:52:35Bob Webb is a physics teacher in York,

0:52:35 > 0:52:37and has been teaching since 2009.

0:52:37 > 0:52:45He says the budgets are stretched, and has big concerns.

0:52:45 > 0:52:52In 2019/20, that is due to change, to decrease to -

0:52:52 > 0:52:55let me get this right - £4,186, which means that

0:52:55 > 0:53:04you have a change of £119.

0:53:04 > 0:53:06A decrease of that amount of money.

0:53:06 > 0:53:10The Government called this a fairer funding formula,

0:53:10 > 0:53:12but Bob says it's anything but fair.

0:53:12 > 0:53:15It's not fair on those pupils sat in the classroom

0:53:15 > 0:53:17of 30 plus students, where there used to be

0:53:17 > 0:53:23smaller class sizes.

0:53:23 > 0:53:25As well is that, it's not fair on those schoolteachers whose

0:53:25 > 0:53:29workload has increased as a result of there being more students

0:53:29 > 0:53:33in the class.

0:53:33 > 0:53:35It's certainly not fair on those school leaders

0:53:35 > 0:53:37that are juggling all of these changes with less

0:53:37 > 0:53:38and less money each year.

0:53:38 > 0:53:39In real terms.

0:53:39 > 0:53:43So even though York is the bottom of the table when it comes

0:53:43 > 0:53:46to education funding, it has actually seen the second

0:53:46 > 0:53:51largest increase in that funding if anywhere in the country.

0:53:51 > 0:53:53The Government say this is all about levelling the playing

0:53:53 > 0:53:58field and making sure that every child reaches their full potential.

0:53:58 > 0:54:05Before this change, there were huge differences in funding

0:54:05 > 0:54:07between similar schools in different parts of the country.

0:54:07 > 0:54:10Now a variety of factors are considered when sharing out

0:54:10 > 0:54:14the cash, such as social deprivation and population density.

0:54:14 > 0:54:18Also doing his homework on the sums is Councillor Stuart Rawlings.

0:54:18 > 0:54:23With extra pressures like pension contributions for teachers

0:54:24 > 0:54:25and paying a Living Wage,

0:54:25 > 0:54:28is he confident the extra cash will help?

0:54:28 > 0:54:31No matter how much we increase it, there will be those challenges.

0:54:31 > 0:54:33As you said, there is inflation and increases in salaries

0:54:33 > 0:54:36and all the other costs that are coming through.

0:54:36 > 0:54:39As a local authority, we work for a closely with both

0:54:39 > 0:54:43local authority schools and the academies to make sure

0:54:43 > 0:54:46that we spend as much of that extra money on front-line teachers

0:54:46 > 0:54:48and put the right people in front of the children,

0:54:48 > 0:54:52because that's what get results.

0:54:52 > 0:54:54Meanwhile, at York College, the budgets for those at 16

0:54:54 > 0:54:56and over get even tighter.

0:54:56 > 0:54:58Those balancing the books are also struggling with the money

0:54:58 > 0:55:03provided by the Government.

0:55:03 > 0:55:05Our students, 16- to 18-year-olds in schools and colleges, are funded

0:55:06 > 0:55:07for 15 hours of education week.

0:55:07 > 0:55:13That doesn't even cover for A-levels.

0:55:13 > 0:55:22-- four A-levels.

0:55:22 > 0:55:24A student can't have that broad, funded curriculum because 15 hours

0:55:24 > 0:55:27a week is just about sufficient for three A-levels.

0:55:27 > 0:55:29When they hit 18, then the funding goes down again

0:55:29 > 0:55:31and gets to 12 hours a week.

0:55:31 > 0:55:33Back in the classrooms, school funding is a burning issue,

0:55:33 > 0:55:35and teachers are urging the Government to put more money

0:55:35 > 0:55:39into education to help pupils reached their full potential.

0:55:41 > 0:55:43Gemma Dillon reporting there.

0:55:43 > 0:55:48Emma Hardy, do you applaud the Government's decision to look

0:55:48 > 0:55:51at the historical imbalances in the way schools are funded?

0:55:51 > 0:55:53There's always been an imbalance, and any attempt to address

0:55:53 > 0:55:55the balance is good.

0:55:55 > 0:55:58But it doesn't take away from the fundamental problem,

0:55:58 > 0:56:01which there isn't enough money in the system.

0:56:01 > 0:56:09That is a fact, that is the main problem.

0:56:09 > 0:56:12I mean, I'm hearing from teachers just this week, I met a group

0:56:12 > 0:56:14of teachers and the consequences of this underfunding is devastating.

0:56:14 > 0:56:20They are talking about increasing behaviour problems because there's

0:56:20 > 0:56:22not as many staff in the school to deal with individual children.

0:56:22 > 0:56:25We're talking about very troubled children not getting that mental

0:56:25 > 0:56:26health support that they need.

0:56:26 > 0:56:28There is not that money for the early intervention.

0:56:28 > 0:56:31And the money that Justine Greening has promised is still in real terms

0:56:31 > 0:56:32a decrease for schools.

0:56:32 > 0:56:36Even if you look at a school getting the highest amount increase

0:56:36 > 0:56:39they possibly could, an increase of 3%, inflation is 3%.

0:56:39 > 0:56:44So even if you say, right, nobody is going to have any cost rises,

0:56:44 > 0:56:46any sort of increased salaries whatsoever,

0:56:46 > 0:56:47inflation will still wipe that out.

0:56:47 > 0:56:50That's for the best schools.

0:56:50 > 0:56:54So what she's actually offered is, for a very small number of schools,

0:56:54 > 0:56:55the ability to tread water.

0:56:55 > 0:56:58That's all they can do, stay the same and tread water

0:56:58 > 0:57:00while the rest of them actually lose out.

0:57:00 > 0:57:02Well, OK, there's a still a huge disparity here,

0:57:02 > 0:57:08John Proctor, as we just heard.

0:57:08 > 0:57:10York will get £4,700 per pupil,

0:57:10 > 0:57:12Hackney in London gets nearly £8,000.

0:57:12 > 0:57:13That's not fair, is it?

0:57:13 > 0:57:18There's a load of different issues, clearly, in Hackney,

0:57:18 > 0:57:20aren't there, compared to York.

0:57:20 > 0:57:23There was a clamour from the 40 worst provided for education

0:57:23 > 0:57:24authorities in the country to change the formula.

0:57:24 > 0:57:27The Government responded to that, they came up with proposals.

0:57:27 > 0:57:29They were welcomed by those very people

0:57:29 > 0:57:33who were demanding those reforms.

0:57:33 > 0:57:36They then played out, and now the view's suddenly changed.

0:57:36 > 0:57:38York's getting more money, we've heard that,

0:57:38 > 0:57:39more money than its got before.

0:57:39 > 0:57:41Still bottom of the pile, though.

0:57:41 > 0:57:44It may be bottom of the pile, but it's getting more money than it

0:57:44 > 0:57:46currently is getting.

0:57:46 > 0:57:50That's important for us to note.

0:57:50 > 0:57:56Terry Wrigley, will be ever find a school funding formula that

0:57:56 > 0:57:59satisfies everybody?

0:57:59 > 0:58:04I think, in part, the difference in funding between schools relates

0:58:04 > 0:58:09to the needs of the pupils.

0:58:09 > 0:58:10That's obviously the case.

0:58:10 > 0:58:13One of the things that this balancing out act appears to be

0:58:13 > 0:58:16doing is taking very large amounts of money from the most socially

0:58:16 > 0:58:19troubled areas in the country, but the areas which are more

0:58:19 > 0:58:20advantaged are actually not gaining very much.

0:58:20 > 0:58:23So, in other words, everybody is suffering to different degrees.

0:58:23 > 0:58:24That isn't what is happening.

0:58:24 > 0:58:27There isn't a drastic cut in school budgets overall at all.

0:58:27 > 0:58:28Yes, there is in real terms.

0:58:28 > 0:58:3188% of schools are having a cut in their school budgets.

0:58:31 > 0:58:33It is easy for us to talk about real terms.

0:58:33 > 0:58:36Because the real terms are real!

0:58:36 > 0:58:39In your view and your world, maybe.

0:58:39 > 0:58:44No, in everyone's view.

0:58:44 > 0:58:45Real terms are real, they're not imaginary.

0:58:45 > 0:58:48If we listen to Labour, they want more money in the NHS...

0:58:48 > 0:58:49For schools, yes.

0:58:49 > 0:58:50And the NHS.

0:58:50 > 0:58:53Yes, we do.

0:58:53 > 0:58:55More money in public services, more money to councils.

0:58:55 > 0:58:56Where is the money coming from?

0:58:56 > 0:59:06This is just not the real world.

0:59:08 > 0:59:11OK, Emma Hardy, again it comes back to that question -

0:59:11 > 0:59:15where is the money coming from?

0:59:15 > 0:59:18Maybe he should ask his ministers and his government, who managed

0:59:18 > 0:59:20to find 9 billion for the DUP.

0:59:20 > 0:59:22There obviously is a little magic money shrub around there somewhere,

0:59:22 > 0:59:24which they could perhaps give another shake and find

0:59:24 > 0:59:25some money for schools.

0:59:25 > 0:59:27But on a serious note, this is desperately needed.

0:59:27 > 0:59:30I was talking to the head of a special school,

0:59:30 > 0:59:33and she said that the lack of money for post-16 children

0:59:33 > 0:59:35in special school provision means that she might not be able

0:59:35 > 0:59:40to open her school all five days, because she said,

0:59:40 > 0:59:42"I can't cut TAs, I can't cut the staff ratios,

0:59:42 > 0:59:44so what can I do?

0:59:44 > 0:59:46I've got to cut the number of hours we are open."

0:59:46 > 0:59:48And that is absolutely shocking and appalling.

0:59:48 > 0:59:50And who is talking about these children?

0:59:50 > 0:59:51Nobody.

0:59:51 > 0:59:52Always an interesting debate, this.

0:59:52 > 0:59:55I mean, there are so many avenues we could go down.

0:59:55 > 0:59:57But thank you very much for your thoughts today.

0:59:57 > 0:59:59Let's get some more of the week's political news now.

0:59:59 > 1:00:03James Vincent has our round-up in 60 seconds.

1:00:03 > 1:00:09Speaker of the House John Bercow has denied claims from a Yorkshire MP

1:00:09 > 1:00:12that he dismissed her bullying concerns as "women's issues".

1:00:12 > 1:00:14He says he would never use that form of words.

1:00:14 > 1:00:17York Central Labour MP Rachel Maskell made the accusation

1:00:17 > 1:00:23in the House of Commons.

1:00:23 > 1:00:26It is absolutely vital that, in this opportunity, that we address

1:00:26 > 1:00:28the issue of bullying, and that we bring forward mandatory

1:00:29 > 1:00:34training for everyone in this house.

1:00:34 > 1:00:35The new Defence Secretary is a Yorkshireman.

1:00:35 > 1:00:38Gavin Williamson is a former Scarborough schoolboy and went

1:00:38 > 1:00:40to the University of Bradford.

1:00:40 > 1:00:43His move means the Skipton and Ripon MP, Julian Smith, has been promoted,

1:00:43 > 1:00:46he's now Chief Whip, giving him the job of making sure

1:00:46 > 1:00:48Conservative MPs toe the line.

1:00:48 > 1:00:52And a public vote could be held in a bid to decide the future

1:00:52 > 1:00:53of devolution in South Yorkshire.

1:00:53 > 1:00:57Plans to hold a community poll have been announced

1:00:57 > 1:00:58by Barnsley and Doncaster.

1:00:58 > 1:01:04The choice?

1:01:04 > 1:01:06Sheffield city region or Yorkshire-wide devolution.

1:01:06 > 1:01:08The poll will cost £240,000 and won't be binding.

1:01:08 > 1:01:09Another busy week in politics.

1:01:09 > 1:01:17Revelations coming out all the time in the Westminster sleaze saga.

1:01:17 > 1:01:21What is your take on all this as a new MP, Emma Hardy?

1:01:21 > 1:01:24Well, I suppose one of the first things is that anybody who's been

1:01:24 > 1:01:26a victim of any of these awful atrocities should be encouraged

1:01:26 > 1:01:29and welcomed to come forward and speak about this,

1:01:29 > 1:01:32because anybody who is guilty of this needs to be held to account

1:01:32 > 1:01:34for it, and they cannot hide behind any secrecy any longer.

1:01:34 > 1:01:36I suppose one of the things is...

1:01:36 > 1:01:41I mean, obviously it's disappointing, you know,

1:01:41 > 1:01:45it's upsetting and it's worrying for all those people affected.

1:01:45 > 1:01:47I heard one of your Labour MP colleagues on the radio

1:01:47 > 1:01:53the other day saying, there are certain male MPs

1:01:53 > 1:01:55at Westminster who she avoids because of their reputation.

1:01:56 > 1:01:57Is that a widely held view?

1:01:57 > 1:02:01To be absolutely honest, it's not one I'm aware of.

1:02:01 > 1:02:04I mean, I'm not saying that other people aren't saying that.

1:02:04 > 1:02:07But, in all honesty, it's not something I've been warned about.

1:02:07 > 1:02:09I've genuinely just found people to be quite nice

1:02:09 > 1:02:10and quite welcoming.

1:02:10 > 1:02:18Actually, from both sides of the house as well.

1:02:18 > 1:02:21But I do think that anyone who has experienced it shouldn't be

1:02:21 > 1:02:23disbelieved or belittled, and they should be encouraged

1:02:23 > 1:02:24to come forward and see a result.

1:02:24 > 1:02:26How does this or compare with the European Parliament?

1:02:27 > 1:02:28I'd be fascinated.

1:02:28 > 1:02:30Is behaviour better or worse in Brussels?

1:02:30 > 1:02:32My experience of the European Parliament is completely

1:02:32 > 1:02:34different from what I hear Westminster is like.

1:02:34 > 1:02:36There just isn't the sort of drinking, boozy culture

1:02:36 > 1:02:38that there seems to be in Westminster.

1:02:38 > 1:02:42It just isn't like that, actually.

1:02:42 > 1:02:44And things go on far later, members take part in committees

1:02:44 > 1:02:47that run late and also varying debates as well.

1:02:47 > 1:02:50The whole setup is different.

1:02:50 > 1:02:55In Westminster, it's been a terrible week for those involved in politics,

1:02:55 > 1:02:57politicians in the round,

1:02:57 > 1:02:59and action needs to be taken clearly.

1:02:59 > 1:03:04OK, thank you both for your thoughts today, Emma Hardy and John Proctor.

1:03:04 > 1:03:07Now let's go back to Sarah Smith in London.

1:03:07 > 1:03:10All right, and at that point we have to end it there.

1:03:10 > 1:03:12My thanks to Rosena and Andrew, and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:12 > 1:03:15It's been a tricky week for Theresa May -

1:03:15 > 1:03:15again, you might think.

1:03:15 > 1:03:18She's lost a Cabinet minister and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:18 > 1:03:21which did little for party unity, to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:21 > 1:03:24vote on Brexit and yet more reports of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:24 > 1:03:26this time apparently over housing.

1:03:26 > 1:03:28So, is the Prime Minister's time in office going with a bang

1:03:28 > 1:03:30or more of a whimper?

1:03:30 > 1:03:31Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:31 > 1:03:33and the entirely unscientific Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:33 > 1:03:35to Conservative-held Surrey, to find out.

1:03:35 > 1:03:38ALL:Three, two, one.

1:03:38 > 1:03:44# Ignite the light and let it shine...#

1:03:44 > 1:03:48It's a tale of lit fuses, plots, conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:48 > 1:03:52but enough of the recent goings on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:52 > 1:03:55it's firework night here in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:55 > 1:03:58does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

1:03:58 > 1:03:59Yes or no?

1:03:59 > 1:04:05# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:05 > 1:04:07With all the scandals in Government at the moment

1:04:07 > 1:04:10and Brexit seems to be dragging on a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:10 > 1:04:14So, at the moment, I don't think she is in control.

1:04:16 > 1:04:20She's too many people sniping at her back, really.

1:04:20 > 1:04:21Do you think Theresa May's in control?

1:04:21 > 1:04:23I think she's in control.

1:04:23 > 1:04:25She's in a good job having a tough time.

1:04:25 > 1:04:26No, I don't.

1:04:26 > 1:04:27I think she's a mess.

1:04:27 > 1:04:30Even when you read her body language when she's being interviewed

1:04:30 > 1:04:32by people, she doesn't seem like she's in control.

1:04:32 > 1:04:37I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:39 > 1:04:43I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:43 > 1:04:46I do think she's struggling but, I still hope, still think she has

1:04:46 > 1:04:49a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:49 > 1:04:51The Queen is England's role.

1:04:51 > 1:04:54It's her birth right.

1:04:54 > 1:04:57She is England's role of this country.

1:04:57 > 1:05:00I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:05:00 > 1:05:03I don't think there's anyone who could do a better job.

1:05:03 > 1:05:06I think she's had a bit of a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:06 > 1:05:08I think she could have done better.

1:05:08 > 1:05:10The money's not going to where it needs to go.

1:05:10 > 1:05:12I think she should resign, really.

1:05:12 > 1:05:15I feel a bit sorry for her, actually.

1:05:15 > 1:05:16I think she's been witch-hunted a little bit.

1:05:16 > 1:05:20She's doing her best.

1:05:20 > 1:05:22With everything that's going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:22 > 1:05:26moment, I think the Conservative Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:26 > 1:05:28Very disappointed.

1:05:28 > 1:05:33Well, you get bickering in all parts not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:33 > 1:05:36And that's just sort of par for the course.

1:05:36 > 1:05:38But I'm sure she'll hold everybody together

1:05:38 > 1:05:41despite the current difficulties.

1:05:41 > 1:05:43The Tories weren't in control when they had the referendum

1:05:43 > 1:05:46in the first place for the euro.

1:05:46 > 1:05:48We've had two years of complete chaos.

1:05:48 > 1:05:52I don't see an end to it.

1:05:52 > 1:05:54Well, I seem to have acquired a few new friends.

1:05:54 > 1:05:57The oohs and ahs are over and so the moodbox

1:05:57 > 1:06:01and the result is...

1:06:01 > 1:06:02No.

1:06:02 > 1:06:04The majority of people here in Guildford

1:06:04 > 1:06:06don't think Theresa May is in control.

1:06:07 > 1:06:10CHEERING

1:06:10 > 1:06:13That was Ellie with the entirely unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:13 > 1:06:19to Bushy Hill Junior School in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:19 > 1:06:24Let's put the Sorbol question to our panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:24 > 1:06:27seasoned Westminster watchers. Is Theresa May in control of her

1:06:27 > 1:06:32Government at the moment or is all of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:32 > 1:06:37swimming around loosening her grip? Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:37 > 1:06:43All Prime Ministers have a degree of control. They retain the power much

1:06:43 > 1:06:48tat wrongage as we saw with her reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:48 > 1:06:53her MPs but she did it. You can't be fully in control of these situations

1:06:53 > 1:06:56in effectively what is a hung Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:56 > 1:07:00in the election she would have the authority to do what she wanted. She

1:07:00 > 1:07:04could float over something like this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:04 > 1:07:08say she's perfectly suited for it, the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:08 > 1:07:12goer, to sort it out. It is much more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:12 > 1:07:15think she will be able to get a full grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:15 > 1:07:20things that need to happen that will happen. I remember with back to

1:07:20 > 1:07:24basics and John Major, that equally vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:24 > 1:07:30basics about? It was still running months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:30 > 1:07:33minister having an affair. This is different. I can see it will be

1:07:33 > 1:07:38impossible for her to fully get to grips with it.Does it provide an

1:07:38 > 1:07:41opportunity for Theresa May to be seen to be taking really serious

1:07:41 > 1:07:45action, trying to root out a bad culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:45 > 1:07:49get some political credit for it? That opportunity was available to

1:07:49 > 1:07:55her all of last week and she hasn't taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:55 > 1:07:58is the near complete breakdown in discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:58 > 1:08:03Tory Party. It is extraordinary you have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:08:03 > 1:08:07not supporting their colleagues. Ministers and former ministers

1:08:07 > 1:08:10giving interviews in which they slag off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:10 > 1:08:15an absolute unholy mess. There is no sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:15 > 1:08:19has any particular solution. I think we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:19 > 1:08:23her in terms of finding a solution. How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:23 > 1:08:31like this where you're talking about apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:31 > 1:08:34retrospective examination of potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:34 > 1:08:38longer too historic for somebody to dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:38 > 1:08:42or may not have happened to them. It is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:42 > 1:08:49being battered around by events. Where does this story go next?I

1:08:49 > 1:08:53think the whip's office on every party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:53 > 1:08:56Democrats, SNP all have their own whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:56 > 1:09:01be the place of it really. This is because, where do we draw the line?

1:09:01 > 1:09:05Going forward what mechanisms are put in place to top this helping

1:09:05 > 1:09:09again. To take allegations seriously, report them and

1:09:09 > 1:09:14investigate them independently. Or is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:14 > 1:09:18into the past retrospective, who knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:18 > 1:09:23Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:23 > 1:09:28the Labour Party leader know about Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:28 > 1:09:32promoted him? Theresa May is unable to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:32 > 1:09:37simply too weak. I asked this of Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:37 > 1:09:41not more front-foot the on this. They said they would be if they

1:09:41 > 1:09:45possibly could be. She's running a minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:45 > 1:09:49seen to be going after a witch-hunt on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:49 > 1:09:58goes on. Enof thebly what the whips new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:58 > 1:10:07knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did the same thing on Andrew Marr.They

1:10:07 > 1:10:13are being precise about the fact they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:13 > 1:10:16Newton said she heard no allegations about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:16 > 1:10:23in charge of rather than rumours about any other Tories.Amber Rudd

1:10:23 > 1:10:29say, I do not recognise the more lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:29 > 1:10:33less lurid once? So, this smells very, very bad indeed.Jeremy

1:10:33 > 1:10:39Corbyn's going to have to answer some of these questions as well?

1:10:39 > 1:10:44Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:44 > 1:10:46vote out for the Government fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:46 > 1:10:50They are not there, it is one of the problems. They are not there to be

1:10:50 > 1:10:54moral guides to these MPs. They are there to win votes for the

1:10:54 > 1:10:59Government or the opposition if that becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:10:59 > 1:11:02with MPs to make sure they get out and vote. Of course they knew

1:11:02 > 1:11:07virtually everything. But whether they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:07 > 1:11:11guard yawns in these situations, I don't think they were. It was not

1:11:11 > 1:11:15part of their job. Maybe you need moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:15 > 1:11:20whips.Normally, less than three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:20 > 1:11:23what we'd been talking about. Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:23 > 1:11:26that's set for November 22nd, is that an opportunity for the

1:11:26 > 1:11:31Government to seize back control of the story?Philip Hammond may be

1:11:31 > 1:11:34glad we're not spending too much time talking about the budget. It

1:11:34 > 1:11:39should be an opportunity for the Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:39 > 1:11:43a line under all of this. I think one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:43 > 1:11:47of this so-called scandal for the Government to manage is knowing

1:11:47 > 1:11:50quite how long it will run. In the normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:50 > 1:11:55steam after a couple of weeks. But there are so many potential gayses

1:11:55 > 1:11:59that could come out, it might run longer than that. Rather like the

1:11:59 > 1:12:02expenses scandal. But there is an opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:02 > 1:12:08the' again da. I just don't think Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:08 > 1:12:11he's a very caution Chancellor. At the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:11 > 1:12:17Theresa May's leadership is so weak it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:17 > 1:12:22do anything particularly dram attic why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:22 > 1:12:26budget where they will be hoping not to make any mistakes.You say there

1:12:26 > 1:12:32is disagreement in the Cabinet about what should be in the budget?

1:12:32 > 1:12:37Disagreement between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:37 > 1:12:42witch-hunt is hiding a huge story which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:42 > 1:12:45between Number Ten and number 11. Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:45 > 1:12:50bear to be in the same room with each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:50 > 1:12:54in the budget. It is coming down to housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:54 > 1:13:00be the centrepiece of the budget. They have to get more houses built.

1:13:00 > 1:13:05Philip Hammond wands that bee deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:05 > 1:13:07are borrow up to 50 billion merchandise more for the Government

1:13:07 > 1:13:09to build for themselves.

1:13:09 > 1:13:10That's all for today.

1:13:10 > 1:13:13There's no Sunday Politics next weekend

1:13:13 > 1:13:14while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:14 > 1:13:17but I'll be back here at 11am on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:17 > 1:13:22Until then, bye bye.