:00:37. > :00:42.Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.
:00:43. > :00:45.Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out
:00:46. > :00:53.their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.
:00:54. > :00:56.They released a video late last night, showing a masked man
:00:57. > :01:02.beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.
:01:03. > :01:04.The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.
:01:05. > :01:06.Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.
:01:07. > :01:09.David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.
:01:10. > :01:12.As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA
:01:13. > :01:15.President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder
:01:16. > :01:23.Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as
:01:24. > :01:25.he predicts a historic and substantial victory in
:01:26. > :01:33.As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,
:01:34. > :01:35.I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his
:01:36. > :01:43.And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown,
:01:44. > :01:45.David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask
:01:46. > :01:57.pro-unionist George Galloway whether it's enough to win over waverers.
:01:58. > :02:00.In London, Boris Johnson moves a step closer back to Parliament. Is
:02:01. > :02:12.it a lame-duck administration? Late last night, as most folk were
:02:13. > :02:15.preparing for bed, news broke that Islamic State extremists had carried
:02:16. > :02:18.out their threat to murder the The group released a video, similar
:02:19. > :02:23.to the ones in which two American journalists were decapitated,
:02:24. > :02:24.showing a masked man apparently beheading Mr Haines who was taken
:02:25. > :02:28.captive in Syria last year. The terrorist,
:02:29. > :02:31.who has a southern British accent, also threatened the life
:02:32. > :02:35.of a second hostage from the UK. Mr Haines is
:02:36. > :02:37.the third Westerner to be killed His family have paid tribute to
:02:38. > :02:42.his humanitarian work; they say he David Cameron described the murder
:02:43. > :02:49.as an act of pure evil, and said his heart went out to Mr Haines?
:02:50. > :02:52.family, who had shown extraordinary Mr Cameron went on to say,
:02:53. > :03:01."We will do everything in our power to hunt down these murderers
:03:02. > :03:04.and ensure they face justice, Mr Haines was born in England
:03:05. > :03:08.and brought up in Scotland. Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond
:03:09. > :03:25.condemned the killing on the Marr Well, it's an act of unspeakable
:03:26. > :03:30.barbarism that we have seen. Obviously our condolences go to the
:03:31. > :03:32.family members of David Haynes who have borne this with such fortitude
:03:33. > :03:39.in recent months -- David Alex Salmond was also asked
:03:40. > :03:48.whether he supported military action Haines there is no reason to believe
:03:49. > :03:57.whatsoever that China or Russia or any country will see their will to
:03:58. > :04:00.deal with this barbarism. There is a will for effective, international,
:04:01. > :04:07.legal action but it must come in that fashion, and I would urge that
:04:08. > :04:08.to be a consideration to develop a collective response to what is a
:04:09. > :04:10.threat to humanity. Our security correspondent
:04:11. > :04:22.Gordon Corera joins me now Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra
:04:23. > :04:28.emergency meeting is meeting yet again. It meets a lot these days. I
:04:29. > :04:32.would suggest that the options facing this committee and Mr Cameron
:04:33. > :04:35.are pretty limited. That's right. I think they are extremely limited.
:04:36. > :04:40.They have been all along in these hostage situations. We know, for
:04:41. > :04:45.instance, that British government policy is not to pay ransom is to
:04:46. > :04:49.kidnappers. Other Europeans states are thought to have done so to get
:04:50. > :04:53.hostages released, and also not to make substantive policy concessions
:04:54. > :04:59.to the groups, so while there might be contact, there won't be a lot of
:05:00. > :05:07.options left. We know the US in the past has looked at rescue missions
:05:08. > :05:11.and in July on operation to free the hostages, landing at the oil
:05:12. > :05:15.facility in Syria but finding no one there. If you look at the options,
:05:16. > :05:22.they are not great. That is the difficult situation which Cobra will
:05:23. > :05:27.have been discussing the last hour. Does this make it more likely,
:05:28. > :05:31.because it might have the direction the government was going in any way,
:05:32. > :05:37.that we join with the Americans in perhaps the regional allies in air
:05:38. > :05:43.strikes against Islamic State, not just in Iraq, but also in Syria. We
:05:44. > :05:45.heard from President Obama outlining his strategy against Islamic State
:05:46. > :05:50.last week when he talked about building a coalition, about
:05:51. > :05:55.authorising air strikes. And training troops. We are still
:05:56. > :06:02.waiting to hear what exact role the UK will play in that. We know it
:06:03. > :06:10.will play a role because it has been arming the fishmonger forces but the
:06:11. > :06:15.question is, will it actually conduct military strikes in Iraq --
:06:16. > :06:27.arming the passion are there. We have not got a clear answer from
:06:28. > :06:30.government and that is something where they are ours to discuss what
:06:31. > :06:34.was around the table. It's possible we might learn some more today as a
:06:35. > :06:38.result of the Cobra meeting, but I think the government will be wanting
:06:39. > :06:41.to not be seen to suddenly rushed to a completely different policy as a
:06:42. > :06:46.result of one incident, however terrible it is. Whether it hardens
:06:47. > :06:49.their reserve -- resolved to play more active role in the coalition,
:06:50. > :06:56.that's possible, but we have to wait see to get the detail. -- wait and
:06:57. > :07:02.see. What the whole country would like to see would be British and
:07:03. > :07:05.American special forces going in and getting these guys. I think that
:07:06. > :07:11.would unite the nation. But that is very difficult, isn't it? It is. As
:07:12. > :07:14.you saw with a rescue mission a few months ago, the problem is getting
:07:15. > :07:18.actionable intelligence on the ground at a particular moment. The
:07:19. > :07:22.theory is that the group of kidnappers are moving the hostages
:07:23. > :07:25.may be even every or few days, so you need intelligence and quickly
:07:26. > :07:30.and then you need to be able to get the team onto the ground into that
:07:31. > :07:33.time frame. That is clearly a possibility and something they will
:07:34. > :07:37.be looking at, but it certainly challenging, particularly when you
:07:38. > :07:41.have a group like this operating within its own state, effectively,
:07:42. > :07:48.and knowing that other people are looking very hard for it and doing
:07:49. > :07:50.everything they can to hide. Gordon, thank you very much.
:07:51. > :07:54.Clegg dropped everything and headed to Scotland when a poll last Sunday
:07:55. > :08:01.gave the YES vote its first ever lead in this prolonged referendum
:08:02. > :08:04.If their reaction looked like panic, that's because it was.
:08:05. > :08:06.Until last weekend, though the polls had been narrowing,
:08:07. > :08:09.the consensus was still that NO would carry the day.
:08:10. > :08:18.The new consensus is that it's too close to call.
:08:19. > :08:24.If we look back at the beginning of the year, public opinion in Scotland
:08:25. > :08:28.was fairly settled. The no campaign had a commanding lead across the
:08:29. > :08:31.opinion polls, excluding the undecided voters. At one point, at
:08:32. > :08:39.the end of last year, an average of 63% backed the no campaign and only
:08:40. > :08:44.37% supported a yes vote. As we move into 2014 and up to this week, you
:08:45. > :08:47.can see a clear trend emerging as the lead for the no campaign gets
:08:48. > :08:51.narrower and narrower and the average of the most recent polls has
:08:52. > :08:55.the contest hanging in the balance. There was a poll a week ago that put
:08:56. > :09:00.the Yes campaign in the lead for the first time, 51% against 49%, but
:09:01. > :09:05.that lead was not reflected in the other polls last week. For polls
:09:06. > :09:17.were published last night, one by Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign
:09:18. > :09:21.-- Better Together campaign, and there was another that gave a one
:09:22. > :09:27.percentage point different. ICM have the yes campaign back in the lead at
:09:28. > :09:33.54% and the no campaign at 46%, but their sample size was 705 Scottish
:09:34. > :09:41.adults, smaller than usual. Another suggests that the contest remains on
:09:42. > :09:46.a knife edge with 49.4% against 50.6%. When fed into the poll of
:09:47. > :09:53.polls the figures average out with yes at 49% and polls -- no at 51%.
:09:54. > :09:57.But some people think 18% are undecided, and it is how they vote
:09:58. > :09:59.gets -- when they get to the polling booths that could make all the
:10:00. > :10:00.difference. campaigner and Respect Party MP,
:10:01. > :10:09.George Galloway. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big
:10:10. > :10:13.business, big oil, big banks, the Tories, the Orange order, all
:10:14. > :10:18.against Scottish independence. You sure you are on right side? Yes,
:10:19. > :10:21.because the interests of working people are in staying together. This
:10:22. > :10:25.is a troubled moment in a marriage, a very long marriage, in which some
:10:26. > :10:30.good things and bad things have been achieved together. And there is no
:10:31. > :10:34.doubt that the crockery is being thrown around the house of the
:10:35. > :10:38.minute. But I believe that the underlying interests of working
:10:39. > :10:41.people are on working on the relationship rather than divorce. I
:10:42. > :10:45.have been divorced. It's a very messy, acrimonious, bitter affair
:10:46. > :10:49.and it's particularly bad for the children will stop that's why I am
:10:50. > :10:54.here. You talk about working people, and particularly Scottish working
:10:55. > :10:58.people, they seem to have concluded that the social democracy they want
:10:59. > :11:05.to create cannot now be done in a UK context. Why should they not have a
:11:06. > :11:08.shot of going it alone? Because the opposite will happen. Separation
:11:09. > :11:12.will cause a race to the bottom in taxation. Alex Salmond has already
:11:13. > :11:16.announced he will cut the taxes on companies, corporation tax, down to
:11:17. > :11:22.3% hello whatever it is in the rest of these islands. And business will
:11:23. > :11:28.only be attracted to come here, country of 5 million people on if
:11:29. > :11:34.there is low regulation, low public expenditure, low levels of taxation
:11:35. > :11:38.for them will stop you cannot have Scandinavian social democracy on
:11:39. > :11:41.Texan levels of taxation. The British government, as will be, the
:11:42. > :11:46.rest of the UK, they will race Alex Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it
:11:47. > :11:53.by three, they will cut it by four. And so on. So whether some people
:11:54. > :11:56.cannot see it clearly yet or not, the interests of the working people
:11:57. > :12:00.on both sides of the border would be gravely damaged by separation. Let's
:12:01. > :12:04.take the interest of the working people. As you know, as well as
:12:05. > :12:09.anyone, the coalition is in fermenting both a series of cuts and
:12:10. > :12:13.reforms in welfare, and labour, Westminster Labour, has only limited
:12:14. > :12:17.plans to reverse any of that. Surely if you want to preserve the welfare
:12:18. > :12:23.state as it is, independence is the way to do it. For the reasons I just
:12:24. > :12:27.explain, I don't believe that. But Ed Miliband will be along in a
:12:28. > :12:33.minute. He will be along in May. The polls indicate... They say he is
:12:34. > :12:38.only four or 5%, that is the average. Like the referendum, the
:12:39. > :12:43.next general election could be nip and tuck. I don't, myself, think
:12:44. > :12:47.that the time of David Cameron as Prime Minister is for much longer. I
:12:48. > :12:51.think there will be a Labour government in the spring and the
:12:52. > :12:56.Labour government in London and a stronger Scottish Parliament, super
:12:57. > :13:02.Devo Max, that is now on the table. That is the best arrangement of
:13:03. > :13:06.people in the country. But the people of Scotland surely cannot
:13:07. > :13:10.base a decision on independence on your feeling that Labour might win
:13:11. > :13:14.the next general election. It is my feeling. When the Tories were beaten
:13:15. > :13:19.on the bedroom tax last week in the house, it was written all over the
:13:20. > :13:24.faces of the government side not only that they were headed for
:13:25. > :13:33.defeat, but probably a massive fishy -- Fisher. I think the race to the
:13:34. > :13:39.bottom that I have proper size will mean that the welfare state will be
:13:40. > :13:45.a distant memory quite soon. The cuts and the run on the Scottish
:13:46. > :13:49.economy here in Edinburgh, the financial services industry, that
:13:50. > :13:54.will be gravely damage. The Ministry of Defence jobs in Scotland
:13:55. > :14:02.decimated, probably ended, more or less. It will be a time of cuts and
:14:03. > :14:06.austerity, maybe super austerity in an independent Scotland. You
:14:07. > :14:08.mentioned defence. What about nuclear weapons? The Tories and
:14:09. > :14:13.Labour will keep them. You are against them. Surely the only way to
:14:14. > :14:20.be rid of them in Scotland is by independence. But you are not rid of
:14:21. > :14:23.them by telling them down the river. The danger would be the same --
:14:24. > :14:30.telling them down the river. The danger would be the same. Nuclear
:14:31. > :14:34.radiation does not respect Alex Salmond's national boundaries. They
:14:35. > :14:38.would be committed to immediately joining NATO, which is bristling
:14:39. > :14:42.with nuclear weapons and is what -- involved in wars across the
:14:43. > :14:46.Atlantic. So anyone looking for a peace option will have to elect a
:14:47. > :14:51.government in Britain as a whole that will get rid of nuclear weapons
:14:52. > :14:53.and get out of military entanglements. We are in one again
:14:54. > :15:01.now. I have been up the whole night, till 5am, dealing with some of the
:15:02. > :15:04.consequences and implications of the grave international matter that you
:15:05. > :15:11.opened the show with. David Haines and the fate of the hostage still in
:15:12. > :15:14.their hands. There are many other hostages as well. And there are many
:15:15. > :15:21.people dying who are neither British nor American. I have, somehow, been
:15:22. > :15:26.drawn into this matter. And it showed me, again, that the world is
:15:27. > :15:34.interdependent. It is absolutely riven with division and hatred, and
:15:35. > :15:39.this is the worst possible time to be opting out of the world to set up
:15:40. > :15:46.a small mini-state on the promises of Alex Salmond of social democracy
:15:47. > :15:49.funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for the sake of the next question,
:15:50. > :15:53.assume that everything you have told us is true. Why is your side
:15:54. > :16:09.squandering a 20 point lead? I will have a great deal to say
:16:10. > :16:17.about that, whatever the result. This is very much a Scottish Labour
:16:18. > :16:23.project, is that not a condemnation of Scottish Labour? It is
:16:24. > :16:40.potentially on its deathbed. The country breaking up, the principal
:16:41. > :16:45.responsibility will be on them. And the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job
:16:46. > :16:52.that has been made of defending a 300-year-old relationship in this
:16:53. > :16:57.island by the Scottish Labour leadership is really terrible for me
:16:58. > :17:01.to behold, even though I'm no longer one of them. I don't know how they
:17:02. > :17:07.are going to get out of this deathbed. Do you agree that if this
:17:08. > :17:10.referendum is lost by your side, it will be because traditional
:17:11. > :17:14.working-class Labour voters, particularly in the west of
:17:15. > :17:20.Scotland, have abundant Labour and decided to vote for independence?
:17:21. > :17:25.Without a doubt, the number of Labour voters intending to vote yes
:17:26. > :17:30.is disturbingly high. Even just months ago during the European
:17:31. > :17:36.Parliament elections, swathes of people who didn't vote SNP will be
:17:37. > :17:41.voting yes on Thursday. That is a grave squandering of a great legacy
:17:42. > :17:48.of Scottish Labour history, which history will decree as
:17:49. > :17:54.unforgivable. If Labour is to get out of its deathbed in Scotland, it
:17:55. > :17:59.will have to become Labour again. Real Labour again. I am ready to
:18:00. > :18:08.help them with that. My goodness, they need help with it. I wonder if
:18:09. > :18:12.it isn't just a failure of Labour in Scotland. People all over Britain
:18:13. > :18:16.are increasingly fed up with the Westminster system, but it is only
:18:17. > :18:21.the Scots who currently have the chance to break free from it, so why
:18:22. > :18:27.shouldn't they? That is exactly right. They see a parliament of
:18:28. > :18:33.expenses cheats led by Lord snooty and the Bullingdon club elite,
:18:34. > :18:38.carrying through austerity for many but not for themselves and they are
:18:39. > :18:43.repulsed by it. They need change, but you can go backwards and call it
:18:44. > :18:49.change but it will be worse than the situation you have now. A lot of
:18:50. > :18:56.Scottish people don't buy that. It is a big gamble. If I were poised to
:18:57. > :19:01.put my family's life savings on the roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife
:19:02. > :19:05.would not be scaremongering if she pointed out the potential
:19:06. > :19:10.consequences if I'd lost. She would not be negative by telling me that
:19:11. > :19:14.is my children's money I am risking. If I jumped off this roof it would
:19:15. > :19:19.change my point of view, but it would be worse than the point of
:19:20. > :19:24.view I have now. There is another issue here because the Scots are
:19:25. > :19:30.being asked to gamble on the Westminster parties, which they are
:19:31. > :19:35.already suspicious of, of delivering home rule. Alistair Darling could
:19:36. > :19:40.not even tell me if Ed Balls had signed off on more income tax powers
:19:41. > :19:44.for Scotland, so that is a gamble for the Scots. I feel the British
:19:45. > :19:50.state has had such a shake out of all this that they would be beyond
:19:51. > :19:56.idiots, they would be insane now to risk all of this flaring up again
:19:57. > :20:02.because whatever happens, if we win on Thursday, it is going to be
:20:03. > :20:07.narrowly. It will be a severe fissure in Scotland. A great deal of
:20:08. > :20:14.unpleasantness that we are already aware of. That could turn but we're
:20:15. > :20:20.still. It would be dicing with death, playing with fire, to let
:20:21. > :20:25.Scottish people down after Thursday if we narrowly win. If you narrowly
:20:26. > :20:30.win, and if there are moves to this home rule Mr Brown has been talking
:20:31. > :20:38.about, England hasn't spoken yet on this. Whilst England would probably
:20:39. > :20:43.not want to stop -- stop Scotland getting this, they would say, what
:20:44. > :20:51.about us? It could delay the whole procedure. It is necessary, you are
:20:52. > :20:56.right. England should have home rule, and I screamed at Scottish
:20:57. > :21:03.Labour MPs going into the vote to introduce tuition fees in England. I
:21:04. > :21:07.told them this was a constitutional monstrosity, as well as a crime
:21:08. > :21:14.against young people in England. It was risking everything. We are led
:21:15. > :21:22.by idiots. Our leaders are not James Bonds, they are Austin powers. We
:21:23. > :21:23.need to change the leadership, not rip up a 300-year-old marriage.
:21:24. > :21:28.Thank you. It's been one of the longest and
:21:29. > :21:31.hardest fought political campaigns in history, with Alex Salmond firing
:21:32. > :21:34.the starting gun on the referendum Adam's been stitching together
:21:35. > :21:49.the key moments of the campaign. It is the other thing drawing people
:21:50. > :21:55.to the Scottish parliament, the new great tapestry of Scotland. It is
:21:56. > :22:01.the story of battles won and lost, Scottish moments, British moments,
:22:02. > :22:07.famous Scots, and not so famous Scots. There is even a panel
:22:08. > :22:10.dedicated to the rise of the SNP. Alex Salmond's majority in the
:22:11. > :22:15.elections in 2011 made the referendum inevitable. It became
:22:16. > :22:21.reality when he and David Cameron did a deal in Edinburgh one year
:22:22. > :22:26.later. The Scottish Government set out its plans for independence in
:22:27. > :22:34.this book, just a wish list to some, a sacred text to others. This White
:22:35. > :22:39.Paper is the most detailed improvements that any people have
:22:40. > :22:44.ever been offered in the world as a basis for becoming an independent
:22:45. > :22:50.country. The no campaign, called Better Together, united the Tories,
:22:51. > :22:54.Labour and the Lib Dems under the leadership of Alistair Darling. Then
:22:55. > :22:57.the Scottish people were bombarded with two years of photo
:22:58. > :23:03.opportunities and a lot of campaigning. For the no campaign,
:23:04. > :23:08.Jim Murphy went on tour but took a break when he was egged and his
:23:09. > :23:13.events were often hijacked by yes campaigners who were accused of
:23:14. > :23:17.being intimidating. In turn, they accused the no campaign of using
:23:18. > :23:25.scare tactics. Things heated up when the TV dinner -- during the TV
:23:26. > :23:31.debate. Fever pitch was reached one week ago when one poll suggested the
:23:32. > :23:36.yes campaign was in the lead for the first time. The three main
:23:37. > :23:40.Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to head north. I think people can feel
:23:41. > :23:44.it is like a general election, that you make a decision and five years
:23:45. > :23:48.later you can make another decision if you are fed up with the Tories,
:23:49. > :23:58.give them a kick... This is totally different. And Labour shelved not
:23:59. > :24:02.quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex Salmond took a helicopter instead.
:24:03. > :24:08.This is about the formation of the NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign
:24:09. > :24:19.is that changes to the NHS in Linden -- in England would lead to
:24:20. > :24:25.privatisation in Scotland. Alex Salmond's plan to share the pound
:24:26. > :24:29.was trashed by big names. There were other big question is, what would
:24:30. > :24:34.happen to military hardware like Trident based on the Clyde? Would an
:24:35. > :24:39.independent Scotland be able to join the EU? And how much oil was left
:24:40. > :24:44.underneath the North Sea? This panel is about famous Scots, we
:24:45. > :24:52.have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry, Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon
:24:53. > :24:56.Brown. These are big changes we are proposing to strengthen the Scottish
:24:57. > :25:01.parliament, but at the same time to stay as part of the UK. A regular on
:25:02. > :25:05.the campaign, he was front and centre when things got close,
:25:06. > :25:10.unveiling a timetable for more devolution. People wondered whether
:25:11. > :25:15.Ed Miliband was able to reach the parts of Scotland Labour leader
:25:16. > :25:18.should reach, and at Westminster some Tories pondered whether David
:25:19. > :25:22.Cameron could stay as prime minister if there was a yes vote. This
:25:23. > :25:28.tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a good place to get away from it all
:25:29. > :25:39.but it is crystallising voters' views. Look at what we have
:25:40. > :25:42.contributed to Great Britain, and I am British and I hope to be staying
:25:43. > :25:45.British. This is what people from Scotland have done, taken to the
:25:46. > :25:49.rest of the world in many cases and I think I am going to vote yes. I am
:25:50. > :25:54.so inspired by it. It has certainly inspired me to have a go at
:25:55. > :26:00.stitching. How long do you think it would take to do the whole thing? I
:26:01. > :26:04.would say to put aside maybe 30 hours of stitching. Maybe by the
:26:05. > :26:05.time I am done, we will know more about how the fabric of the nation
:26:06. > :26:09.might be changing. And I've been joined
:26:10. > :26:12.by yes campaigner and convenor of Scotland's Solidarity socialist
:26:13. > :26:24.party, Tommy Sheridan. An economy dependent on oil, the
:26:25. > :26:29.Queen as head of state, membership of the world 's premier nuclear
:26:30. > :26:40.alliance of capitalist nations - is that the socialist Scotland you are
:26:41. > :26:44.fighting for? No, that is the SNP's prospectus and they are entitled to
:26:45. > :26:49.put forward their vision, but it is not mine or that of the majority of
:26:50. > :26:55.Scotland. We will find out in two years. On Thursday we are not voting
:26:56. > :27:01.for a political party, we are voting for our freedom as a country. That
:27:02. > :27:04.is why people are going to vote yes on Thursday. A lot of people are
:27:05. > :27:11.voting for what you call freedom because they think it will be more
:27:12. > :27:15.Scotland. You have already got free prescriptions, no tuition fees, free
:27:16. > :27:20.care for the elderly. You might not in future have that if public
:27:21. > :27:24.spending is overdependent on the price of oil, over which you have no
:27:25. > :27:28.control. We don't have to worry about one single resource, we
:27:29. > :27:36.already have 20% of the fishing stock in Europe. We already have 25%
:27:37. > :27:47.of the wind, wave and solar power generation. We, as an independent
:27:48. > :27:51.country, have huge resources, natural resources but also people
:27:52. > :27:56.resources. We have five first-class universities, food and beverages
:27:57. > :28:00.industry which is the envy of the world. We have the ability to
:28:01. > :28:04.produce the resources on the revenues that won't just maintain
:28:05. > :28:07.the health service and education but it will develop health and
:28:08. > :28:13.education. I don't want to stand still, I want to redistribute
:28:14. > :28:19.wealth. But all of the projections of public spending for an
:28:20. > :28:24.independent Scotland show that to keep spending at the current level
:28:25. > :28:29.you need a strong price of oil and you are dependent on this commodity
:28:30. > :28:34.which goes up and down and sideways. That is a gamble. I have got to
:28:35. > :28:39.laugh because I have been told the most pessimistic is that in 40 years
:28:40. > :28:45.the oil is running out, panic stations! If you were told by the
:28:46. > :28:50.BBC you could only guarantee employment for the next 40 years you
:28:51. > :28:57.would be over the moon. I am talking about in the next five. You need 50%
:28:58. > :29:02.of your revenues to come from oil to continue spending and that is not a
:29:03. > :29:08.guarantee. Of course it is, the minimum survival of the oil is 40
:29:09. > :29:23.years. Please get your viewers to go onto the Internet and look at the
:29:24. > :29:30.website called oilandgas.com. The West Coast has 100 years of oil to
:29:31. > :29:33.be extracted. It hasn't been done because in 1981 Michael Heseltine
:29:34. > :29:40.said we cannot extract the oil because we have Trident going up and
:29:41. > :29:50.down there. Let's get rid of Trident and extract the oil. You are a trot
:29:51. > :29:55.right, why have you failed to learn his famous dictum, socialism in one
:29:56. > :30:00.country is impossible. Revolutions and change are not just single
:30:01. > :30:05.event. What will happen here on Thursday is a democratic revolution.
:30:06. > :30:10.The people are fed up of being patronised and lied to by this mob
:30:11. > :30:16.in Westminster who have used and abused us for far too long. The
:30:17. > :30:19.smaller people now have a voice. What about socialism in one
:30:20. > :30:29.country? Mr Trotsky warned you against that. The no campaign
:30:30. > :30:33.represents the past. The yes campaign represents the future. That
:30:34. > :30:38.is the truth of the matter. What we are going to do in an independent
:30:39. > :30:46.Scotland is tackle inequality and a scourge of low pay. If we vote no on
:30:47. > :30:51.Thursday, there will be more low pay on Friday, more poverty and food
:30:52. > :30:58.banks on Friday. I'm not going to be lectured by these big banks, you
:30:59. > :31:06.vote less -- yes and we will leave the country! The food banks will be
:31:07. > :31:11.the ones closing. If you got your way, for the type of Scotland you
:31:12. > :31:16.would like to see, state control of business, nationalisation of the
:31:17. > :31:24.Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be clogged with people
:31:25. > :31:32.Yes, hoping to come into Scotland, because in their hearts, the
:31:33. > :31:37.Scottish people know that England want to see the people having the
:31:38. > :31:39.bottle. The working class people in Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of
:31:40. > :31:43.London, they are saying good on the jocks that are taking on big
:31:44. > :31:48.business. When we are independent and investing in social housing, the
:31:49. > :31:52.people of England will say, we can do that as well, and they will
:31:53. > :31:56.rediscover the radical tradition. In wanting to build socialism in one
:31:57. > :31:59.country, it really means you are fighting for the few, rather than
:32:00. > :32:03.the many. You are bailing out of the socialist Battle for Britain. You
:32:04. > :32:12.think it will be easier to make it work. Think globally, act locally
:32:13. > :32:15.and we will build socialism in Scotland but I wanted across the
:32:16. > :32:20.world. I won my brothers and sisters in England and Wales to be
:32:21. > :32:24.encouraged by what we do so they can reject the Westminster consensus as
:32:25. > :32:28.well -- I want. We had the three Stooges coming up to London, three
:32:29. > :32:32.millionaires united on one thing, austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed
:32:33. > :32:35.Miliband wins the next election, he said he would stick to the story
:32:36. > :32:42.spending cuts. Why vote for Ed Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to
:32:43. > :32:45.run a bath, not a country. Let's see if this is realistic, this great
:32:46. > :32:49.socialist vision. At the last Scottish election, the Socialist
:32:50. > :32:55.party got 8000 votes. The Conservatives got 30 times more
:32:56. > :32:59.votes. Where is the appetite in Scotland for your Marxist ideology
:33:00. > :33:03.question we might not win it. But do you know what, see in two years
:33:04. > :33:18.time. See when we have the Scottish general election. You won't -- you
:33:19. > :33:23.are saying you might win and you went to the Holyrood election and
:33:24. > :33:27.got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won a democratic election and then won
:33:28. > :33:30.the 2011 election and you know why they won? Because they picked up the
:33:31. > :33:34.clothes that the Labour Party has thrown away. They picked up the
:33:35. > :33:43.close of social democracy and protecting the health service was --
:33:44. > :33:47.service. There are people in the SNP who believe in public ownership and
:33:48. > :33:49.people in the SNP who believe in the NHS should be written into a
:33:50. > :33:54.constitution as never for sale people in the the SNP that think the
:33:55. > :33:58.Royal mail should return to public ownership. That is there in black
:33:59. > :34:02.and white. Do you agree with George Galloway that this is potentially a
:34:03. > :34:07.crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish Labour is finished. They are
:34:08. > :34:12.absolutely finished. George is right in that. Scottish Labour is
:34:13. > :34:14.finished. The irony of ironies is, Labour in Scotland has more chance
:34:15. > :34:20.of recovery in an independent Scotland that they have in a no
:34:21. > :34:24.vote. Labour in Scotland in an independent country will have to
:34:25. > :34:29.rediscover the traditions of Keir Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon,
:34:30. > :34:36.because right now, they are to the right of the SNP as a political
:34:37. > :34:40.party. I understand the socialist vision, but it is where the appetite
:34:41. > :34:46.is. And you look at the independence people in Scotland. One of your
:34:47. > :34:52.colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who fought against the appeal -- repeal
:34:53. > :34:55.of homosexual rights in Scotland. Another of your allies would seem to
:34:56. > :35:02.be Rupert Murdoch, the man who engineered your downfall. You say he
:35:03. > :35:07.engineered your downfall, but I'm still here and his newspaper has
:35:08. > :35:11.closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch, Brian Souter, or any other
:35:12. > :35:15.millionaire supporting independence, I couldn't care less. This boat on
:35:16. > :35:21.Thursday is not about millionaires, it is about the millions. -- this
:35:22. > :35:27.vote. We will not be abused any young -- longer. Would you rather
:35:28. > :35:31.not have their support? I couldn't care about the support. You know who
:35:32. > :35:35.is supporting the union. It is the unions of the big businesses, the
:35:36. > :35:43.BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who support it. You are giving me a
:35:44. > :35:46.stray that has wandered into the campaign and are you seriously going
:35:47. > :35:50.to argue with me that the establishment isn't united to try
:35:51. > :35:54.and save the union? That is what they are trying to be. The BBC, you
:35:55. > :35:58.have been a disgrace in your coverage of the campaign. Not you
:35:59. > :36:03.personally. You don't have editorial control. The BBC coverage,
:36:04. > :36:08.generally, has been a disgrace and the people. Oil and gas, go and look
:36:09. > :36:12.at that, why is that not feature. Why is the idea of 100 years of oil
:36:13. > :36:16.not featured in the campaign. Because the BBC does not want to see
:36:17. > :36:21.it. Are you getting in your excuses if you lose? You better be kidding.
:36:22. > :36:28.Is this the face of somebody looking to lose. We are going to win, 60/40.
:36:29. > :36:32.Absolutely. There is a momentum that you guys are not seeing on the
:36:33. > :36:36.working-class housing estates. Working class people are fed up
:36:37. > :36:45.being taken for granted fed up with the lives of people dragging us into
:36:46. > :36:48.tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor. They will have power on Thursday,
:36:49. > :36:53.and they will use it and vote for freedom. Are you happy with the way
:36:54. > :36:57.the BBC has treated you today? So far, yes. I have still not been
:36:58. > :37:02.offered a Coffey, but that might happen. That is an obvious example
:37:03. > :00:12.of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to you later with George Galloway.
:00:13. > :00:17.The last time a sewer was built in London was 150 years ago, otherwise
:00:18. > :00:23.we would have a dirty River Thames. Andrew, back to you.
:00:24. > :00:28.Can the No campaign still pull it off?
:00:29. > :00:31.And even if they do is the whole of the UK now on the brink
:00:32. > :00:48.I'm joined now by John McTernan, former adviser to Gordon Brown
:00:49. > :00:51.and Tony Blair, Alex Bell, former Head of Policy for the SNP
:00:52. > :00:54.and Lindsay McIntosh, the Times Scottish Political Editor.
:00:55. > :01:00.And I'm delighted that Tommy and George have stayed too.
:01:01. > :01:08.No fighting has broken out either. Where
:01:09. > :01:08.No fighting has broken out either. have three full days to go
:01:09. > :01:11.No fighting has broken out either. polling day. What is the state of
:01:12. > :01:19.play? I think the poll of polls is accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital
:01:20. > :01:24.is to bring the undecided voters in, and they properly have about
:01:25. > :01:27.500,000. I think there are a lot of undecided people. I think they know
:01:28. > :01:33.which way they are leaning, but they haven't jumped. The hope of the no
:01:34. > :01:38.campaign is that they will go for the status quo on Thursday. How do
:01:39. > :01:42.you assess the state of the campaign now? The crucial thing is the big
:01:43. > :01:51.swing. The swing has come towards yes, so will the momentum carry it
:01:52. > :01:55.over the line? I will think it does, because it is an antiestablishment
:01:56. > :02:00.swell, and its people responding to standard Western as the politicians
:02:01. > :02:05.and saying that they want a new way -- Westminster politicians. I think
:02:06. > :02:10.that yes will sneak it. A referendum can be more important than a general
:02:11. > :02:14.election, and the Yes campaign have had the momentum. This was the week
:02:15. > :02:18.the momentum stopped. We started the week looking as though yes were
:02:19. > :02:21.going into the lead and then it stopped and most of the recent polls
:02:22. > :02:27.show a distinct lead for the no campaign. A distinct lead? It is one
:02:28. > :02:33.or two points. It is six in one poll, two in another, aiding
:02:34. > :02:36.another. The poll of polls is a good way of measuring, and is it
:02:37. > :02:41.statistically Nick -- nip and tuck? It is the week the momentum stopped.
:02:42. > :02:44.About a fifth of the electorate. That will be a quarter of the
:02:45. > :02:48.turnout have voted already, by postal vote, and they are running
:02:49. > :02:54.very strongly towards no, so there is a whole bank of votes there. The
:02:55. > :02:57.postal votes are skewed to the over 60s, and that is the demographic
:02:58. > :03:03.that the Yes campaign have had the biggest trouble with. Absolutely,
:03:04. > :03:07.the Yes campaign faced a challenge amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and
:03:08. > :03:13.always based challenge with the older voters. Trust me, I was the
:03:14. > :03:18.decision the day the civil servants made it possible for the 16 to
:03:19. > :03:21.18-year-olds to vote, and we said there was a victory for the no
:03:22. > :03:27.campaign in that alone. The young tend to be conservative by nature. I
:03:28. > :03:35.think again that to say that the momentum has stopped when you had a
:03:36. > :03:40.20 point lead, this is a referendum whether people will speak and they
:03:41. > :03:45.will be heard. Except for the one poll which needs a huge health
:03:46. > :03:47.warning because of the size of the sample, the momentum is
:03:48. > :03:52.unquestionably all the way through August is going in the direction of
:03:53. > :03:58.yes. It hasn't quite continue to get to the 55/45 four yes that Alex
:03:59. > :04:02.Salmond thinks will be the result. I would agree with John. This was the
:04:03. > :04:09.momentum stalled. We saw the three leaders coming up, and that kept
:04:10. > :04:12.Alex Salmond off the front pages on the television and we had a raft of
:04:13. > :04:15.economic warnings which, although they were dismissed as
:04:16. > :04:20.scaremongering, they will have had a lot of traction with voters. What
:04:21. > :04:25.does the no campaign have to do in the final three days? It has to
:04:26. > :04:30.focus on the undecided, relentlessly. It has to do stick to
:04:31. > :04:33.the question of risk and keep pushing back on Alex Salmond to say
:04:34. > :04:38.it doesn't matter if the banks leave, it will all be all right on
:04:39. > :04:41.the night. The huge question amongst the undecided voters is about the
:04:42. > :04:46.economy. It is about jobs and currency, about business. That risk
:04:47. > :04:50.is what will crystallise in the ballot box on Thursday and that has
:04:51. > :04:54.to be the focus. What does the Yes campaign have to do? It has to drive
:04:55. > :04:58.home that the swing to the Yes campaign is motivated by people who
:04:59. > :05:01.want a different politics. They have decided amongst themselves that they
:05:02. > :05:07.want to change Scotland. The unfortunate thing is, even though
:05:08. > :05:10.the no campaign has had the chance to put up after proposals, they have
:05:11. > :05:13.failed. The Scottish people want their powers were a purpose and they
:05:14. > :05:17.say that only the Yes campaign can deliver that. There will be two days
:05:18. > :05:21.of relentless campaigning from today, Monday and Tuesday, then the
:05:22. > :05:27.media, the newspapers, including your own, will come out with the
:05:28. > :05:31.final poll, the ones that will be the closest to the day that the
:05:32. > :05:35.Scots actually go and vote. I think we will see more polling this week,
:05:36. > :05:38.but what is interesting is the extent to which the pollsters are
:05:39. > :05:41.picking up what is going on in the street. We know we have a huge
:05:42. > :05:47.number of voters who have never voted before and are not engage with
:05:48. > :05:51.politics, so what will they do? The third candidate in the election, if
:05:52. > :05:53.I can would in this way, are the polls. They might have a lot of
:05:54. > :05:58.questions to answer on Friday morning. We were talking earlier
:05:59. > :06:02.with George and Tommy about the Labour Party's consequences in all
:06:03. > :06:06.of this. Gordon Brown, of course, has had a bit of a second coming as
:06:07. > :06:09.a result of this referendum. I just want to play a clip of Gordon Brown
:06:10. > :06:20.during the campaign and get a reaction. And I say this to Alex
:06:21. > :06:23.Salmond himself. Up until today I am outside front line politics. If he
:06:24. > :06:28.continues to peddle this deception, that the Scottish Parliament under
:06:29. > :06:31.his leadership, and he cannot do anything to improve the health
:06:32. > :06:38.service until he has a separate state, then I will want to join Joe
:06:39. > :06:42.Hanlon want in and securing the return of a Labour government as
:06:43. > :06:49.quickly as possible -- Johann Lamont. That was seen by some people
:06:50. > :06:53.as Gordon Brown implying he might stand for the Scottish Parliament.
:06:54. > :06:59.Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon Brown the saviour of Scottish
:07:00. > :07:02.Labour? I did a double black the other night -- double act with him
:07:03. > :07:07.the other night, and I must say he was a big beast all over again. He
:07:08. > :07:12.crossed the stage Meli dealt with the audience brilliantly. He has a
:07:13. > :07:17.certain presence, Gordon Brown, but he would really have to reinvent
:07:18. > :07:23.himself quite considerably. He is capable of doing, but the man who
:07:24. > :07:26.was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton, who pulled together the original red
:07:27. > :07:31.paper on Scotland, he would have to be that Gordon Brown rather than the
:07:32. > :07:34.Gordon Brown of some more melancholy events later. Tommy, you have both
:07:35. > :07:39.been critical of the state of the Scottish Labour Party. Rather than
:07:40. > :07:41.looking to Gordon Brown, which might be an interim solution, doesn't
:07:42. > :07:46.Scottish Labour have to find a new generation of people to reignite it?
:07:47. > :07:52.What George and I are agreed on, and you have to remember this question
:07:53. > :07:54.of independence see us disagreeing passionately, and in most other
:07:55. > :07:58.things we find ourselves in agreement, one thing is clear,
:07:59. > :08:04.Scottish Labour is finished. They have lost the heart and soul of
:08:05. > :08:07.Scotland. The fact that we are discussing with four days to go an
:08:08. > :08:12.independence referendum that is neck and neck, Labour have failed
:08:13. > :08:15.miserably, absolutely miserably, because they have given up
:08:16. > :08:20.everything they stood for. The SNP has picked it up. They have just
:08:21. > :08:24.taken on the bank -- mantle of a left of centre party and are picking
:08:25. > :08:28.up support. Gordon and the rest, in my opinion, they represent the past.
:08:29. > :08:31.The yes vote on the Yes campaign represents the future. What do you
:08:32. > :08:38.say to that? There is nothing socialist about an SNP that wants to
:08:39. > :08:42.cut business tax by 3% in the pan. There is nothing socialist about an
:08:43. > :08:46.SNP destroying further education so they can give middle-class people
:08:47. > :08:50.free education. The Labour Party is alive and kicking. You can see if it
:08:51. > :08:57.is Gordon Brown, or Jim Murphy with the 100 days tour. But I hesitate to
:08:58. > :09:00.use this word, but they are kind of privatised from the Scottish Labour
:09:01. > :09:05.Party. They have rode their own fallow. Jim Murphy was on the stump
:09:06. > :09:10.because official Scottish Labour did not want him leading their campaign.
:09:11. > :09:14.Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off the stage until it became so
:09:15. > :09:20.critical that he had to be brought back. I agree with John, the SNP
:09:21. > :09:25.talks left but acts right. That is before they get state powers. That
:09:26. > :09:29.is what is exciting about the referendum, it's not about the SNP,
:09:30. > :09:32.it's about the people deciding. What we have heard so far in the
:09:33. > :09:36.referendum campaign is that there is a desperate yearning in the
:09:37. > :09:40.electorate for real politics, purposeful politics and for the
:09:41. > :09:43.people to be represented. It is probably to the eternal shame of
:09:44. > :09:47.labour that they gave up that role and other people are now taking it
:09:48. > :09:51.upon themselves. How would you assess the state of the Labour
:09:52. > :09:55.Party? The problem is that it was demolished by the SNP in 2011 and
:09:56. > :09:58.what they should have done since then and in other circumstances is
:09:59. > :10:02.take a real look within themselves and brought forward new talent and
:10:03. > :10:05.policies and watch out what they stood for. They've been unable to do
:10:06. > :10:12.that because they are locked in a constitutional row. It is the plan
:10:13. > :10:15.of the Nationalists to fight the first Scottish general election as
:10:16. > :10:19.an independent nation as a nationalist party with its own
:10:20. > :10:24.programme. You don't all go your own way. Why don't you do that? You have
:10:25. > :10:29.more on your main reason to be, so why not go, left, right and centre
:10:30. > :10:33.question you are presuming you don't go the one-way. I do not see the
:10:34. > :10:37.function of the SNP after the yes vote. I think it is clear that there
:10:38. > :10:41.is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon, an SNP which attracts votes from the
:10:42. > :10:44.left and that is the one for me. Whether that is called the SNP or
:10:45. > :10:49.something else, I don't know. I think the assumption that we are
:10:50. > :10:57.going into a mirror of old politics in a new world is just fundamentally
:10:58. > :11:01.flawed. That is interesting. Let's just bring in the English
:11:02. > :11:05.dimensional. In many ways, England has not spoken in this referendum
:11:06. > :11:09.campaign. Whether it is yes or no, it will, and to give you a flavour
:11:10. > :11:13.of what some in England might be thinking was saying, here is a clip
:11:14. > :11:18.from John Redwood. We are fed up with this lopsided devolution, this
:11:19. > :11:21.unfair devolution. Scotland gets first-class Devolution, Wales gets
:11:22. > :11:24.second-class devolution and England gets nothing. If Wales wants the
:11:25. > :11:29.same as us, they should have it, and then there would be commonality so
:11:30. > :11:32.we could discuss and decide in our own countries, in our own assemblies
:11:33. > :11:40.in Parliament, all those things that are devolved. George, it was clear
:11:41. > :11:42.that if Scotland voted yes for independence it has huge
:11:43. > :11:47.implications for England than the UK, but it's also clear particularly
:11:48. > :11:51.after Gordon Brown's intervention, even if it is no, it has huge
:11:52. > :11:56.applications. You are, I suggest, agreeing with John Redwood that
:11:57. > :12:01.there should be an English boys. It would be a step too far for me to
:12:02. > :12:05.agree with him -- English voice. I appreciate I might have gone out on
:12:06. > :12:11.a limb. He is the voice of Mars, the Balkan from Mars. My own
:12:12. > :12:16.constituents in Bradford are asking, what about us? All these things
:12:17. > :12:20.being done, all the extra mile is being travel to Scotland, what about
:12:21. > :12:25.us? Labour would be well advised to adjust quickly on this so that the
:12:26. > :12:32.John Redwood types do not steal the show. England has yes to use -- yet
:12:33. > :12:36.to speak. It's interesting when you hear a Labour backbencher in
:12:37. > :12:41.Scotland talk about a command paper. He is not in government. Gordon
:12:42. > :12:44.Brown is going round Scotland promising things and he has
:12:45. > :12:49.absolutely no chance of delivering them. The MPs in England will say,
:12:50. > :12:53.hey, what are you talking about? We have never been discussed with that?
:12:54. > :12:58.We have not agreed with that. The only way people in Scotland will get
:12:59. > :13:03.the powers they deserve is by voting yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you
:13:04. > :13:08.think it is 60/40. I will stick with it, because we have an unprecedented
:13:09. > :13:11.election. 97% of Scotland is registered to vote. The working
:13:12. > :13:20.class will vote in numbers never voted before. George? 55/45 for our
:13:21. > :13:23.side. And if there is a rogue poll, the tek Levesley polled --
:13:24. > :13:28.technically flawed poll, which should not be published because it
:13:29. > :13:31.is so flawed, then we would be stretching towards what I am
:13:32. > :13:37.predicting already. I think in the last few days we will reach that.
:13:38. > :13:40.Come on. If the no campaign can get the silent majority out, they will
:13:41. > :13:47.edge it. You think they will win, but how much? They cannot give up in
:13:48. > :13:52.a second, a moment or a mile. It is that close. It will be won by the
:13:53. > :14:03.passionate view. I will go for a narrow yes victory. I'm the George,
:14:04. > :14:06.53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. -- I am with George. I will leave you
:14:07. > :14:08.to argue about that later. Thank you for being with us on the special
:14:09. > :14:10.Sunday politics from Edinburgh. That's all from us today
:14:11. > :14:12.in Scotland. Don't forget the Daily Politics will
:14:13. > :14:14.have continuing coverage of the referendum campaign all this
:14:15. > :14:17.week on BBC2 at midday. On Thursday night Huw Edwards will
:14:18. > :14:20.be in Glasgow and I will be in London to bring you live coverage
:14:21. > :14:24.of the results on BBC1 from 10.40 pm on a historic night for Scotland
:14:25. > :14:27.and the rest of the United Kingdom. And I'll be back next Sunday
:14:28. > :14:30.when we're live from the Labour Unless, of course, the referendum
:14:31. > :14:38.result is so tumultuous even the Remember if it's Sunday,
:14:39. > :14:43.it's the Sunday Politics.