:00:00. > :00:09.Welcome to Liverpool where the Labour Party has decided
:00:10. > :00:13.who its next leader should be - he's the same one they had before.
:00:14. > :00:48.So is it onwards and upwards for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour?
:00:49. > :00:52.Morning folks and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:53. > :00:54.I am therefore, conference, delighted to declare Jeremy Corbyn
:00:55. > :01:00.elected as leader of the Labour Party.
:01:01. > :01:06.Jeremy Corbyn says he wants to "wipe the slate clean".
:01:07. > :01:09.But can Labour MPs serve under a man they said they had no confidence in?
:01:10. > :01:13.We look at where the next battles are likely to be fought and speak
:01:14. > :01:15.to one peer who's quitting the party in protest.
:01:16. > :01:17.Jeremy has no leadership qualities, whatsoever.
:01:18. > :01:22.His little group like him and they think he is the Messiah
:01:23. > :01:24.but he will never become the leader -
:01:25. > :01:33.He's been "getting down" at party conferences for more than 50 years -
:01:34. > :01:39.we'll ask John Prescott if he's optimistic about the next 50 years.
:01:40. > :01:42.David Cameron felt "let down" by Theresa May
:01:43. > :01:45.because of her lukewarm support for Remain during the
:01:46. > :01:58.Was she a secret brexiteer or just manoeuvring for the top job?
:01:59. > :02:02.In the capital, how is this rivalry shaping up?
:02:03. > :02:04.London's Mayor warns pointedly that you can only change lives
:02:05. > :02:12.And we tried to oust them from the programme -
:02:13. > :02:16.but they're back by popular demand - so with me - the best
:02:17. > :02:20.and the brightest political panel in the business Steve Richards,
:02:21. > :02:21.Rachel Shabi and Tom Newton-Dunn, who'll be tweeting
:02:22. > :02:28.David Cameron became intensely frustrated
:02:29. > :02:31.at Theresa May's unwillingness to declare her intentions
:02:32. > :02:34.in the run-up to the EU referendum campaign.
:02:35. > :02:40.That's according to a new book by Mr Cameron's former spin doctor.
:02:41. > :02:43.The book by Craig Oliver is called Unleashing Demons:
:02:44. > :02:48.The Inside Story Of Brexit, and is being serialised in Mail
:02:49. > :02:52.The book talks about Mrs May's "submarine strategy
:02:53. > :02:58.Mr Oliver also writes that, "Her sphinx-like approach
:02:59. > :03:03.At one point a leading Remain campaigner asks: "Are we sure May's
:03:04. > :03:06.Oliver also makes claims around Boris Johnson's
:03:07. > :03:13.He claims Mr Johnson texted Mr Cameron after
:03:14. > :03:19.saying Brexit would be "crushed like a toad beneath the harrow".
:03:20. > :03:22.And claims the new Foreign Secretary had a last-minute wobble over
:03:23. > :03:25.backing a vote to Leave the EU, sending a text which read
:03:26. > :03:34.There we go. We know the feeling! This is a Prime Minister of which we
:03:35. > :03:40.know very little. What does this tell us about her? What it tells us
:03:41. > :03:45.is that Craig Oliver David Cameron don't like her very much, that's the
:03:46. > :03:47.only thing we can be 100% sure of, quite frankly. We knew she was a
:03:48. > :03:53.submarine throughout the campaign and I remember discussing it during
:03:54. > :03:58.the campaign on your programme. What we are debating is the motive, why
:03:59. > :04:01.does she stay hidden? Speaking to Downing Street people this morning,
:04:02. > :04:05.they are furious. They say Craig Oliver would be better writing
:04:06. > :04:09.fiction than fact. They are disputing a lot of what Craig Oliver
:04:10. > :04:13.says but of course he was there. It comes down to what you think of
:04:14. > :04:19.Theresa May. Why was she so quiet? Why would she not come up behind
:04:20. > :04:22.Cameron? Was it a political thing because she wanted to be a PM or did
:04:23. > :04:27.she not believe what he was saying? What we know is she was always a
:04:28. > :04:32.reluctant Remainer and some people thought she was a secret Brexiteer.
:04:33. > :04:36.What with don't know is she was playing the part of a submarine. Was
:04:37. > :04:41.she quietly plotting for the leadership? That is the bit that is
:04:42. > :04:45.unclear. Yes, I mean, I think to a certain extent a lot of these things
:04:46. > :04:49.we did already know, you are right. But we didn't know the extent to
:04:50. > :04:56.which... I mean, this is a party which claims to love Britain and yet
:04:57. > :05:00.seems to make decisions on the basis of pure political gain. And once we
:05:01. > :05:05.see the machinations of that and the insights to that that seem to be
:05:06. > :05:12.exposed today in this book, the fact Theresa May was asked 13 times, the
:05:13. > :05:18.fact Boris Johnson... 13 times to? To step up and support Cameron. I
:05:19. > :05:22.missed that, 13 times she was asked? In fact, Boris Johnson less than a
:05:23. > :05:26.minute before making decisions sent a text to David Cameron saying he
:05:27. > :05:29.would come out in favour of Remain, shows how arbitrary, random and
:05:30. > :05:34.politically driven these decisions were. I think we should be asking
:05:35. > :05:38.them these questions every day. It is unforgivable they took the
:05:39. > :05:43.country to such a massive and catastrophic decision on the basis
:05:44. > :05:51.of such naked political gain. That has never happened in politics
:05:52. > :05:54.before! Perish the thought! I thought that because Mrs May played
:05:55. > :05:59.the part of reluctant Remainer she would annoy both sides, that the
:06:00. > :06:04.Leave campaign would be angry with her because she didn't jump to them
:06:05. > :06:07.and Remain side would be angry because she did nothing effective
:06:08. > :06:11.during the campaign and that would count her out from getting the
:06:12. > :06:16.leadership. How did I get that wrong? It certainly didn't have that
:06:17. > :06:19.effect. I think we can roughly work out what happened. A senior official
:06:20. > :06:23.at the Home Office who worked with Theresa May for a long time told me
:06:24. > :06:28.earlier this year, long before the referendum, and when people had
:06:29. > :06:32.declared, that he was 100% sure she would back Remain. He was a great
:06:33. > :06:37.admirer of hers and he said that was her view and that she would do that.
:06:38. > :06:41.So I think she was a Remainer. But as you say, she had doubts. She made
:06:42. > :06:49.Corbyn look evangelical on the issue. There is nothing
:06:50. > :06:52.contradictory about being in the end for Remain but harbouring leadership
:06:53. > :06:57.ambitions. They did try to get her to do more, I know they did. But the
:06:58. > :07:00.Remain campaign was also ambiguous about the issue of immigration and
:07:01. > :07:04.the group Dunne the degree to which they wanted to go with it, they
:07:05. > :07:07.wanted to go on the economy. I don't think they pressed her the heart of
:07:08. > :07:12.the dominant force in the campaign because they wanted it to be more
:07:13. > :07:16.about the economy than immigration. So reluctant Remainer, low profile
:07:17. > :07:19.for all kinds of reasons, one of which was the Remain campaign didn't
:07:20. > :07:27.want immigration to overwhelm the economy. It did in the end. They
:07:28. > :07:34.calculated that wrong. The Remain campaign got that wrong, not Theresa
:07:35. > :07:37.May. Have we known less about any Prime Minister in modern times than
:07:38. > :07:42.Theresa May? It's funny because we think we know her. I've interviewed
:07:43. > :07:47.her, you have interviewed her, we have seen her around the scene for
:07:48. > :07:52.20 years but we don't know precisely... We will get a load more
:07:53. > :07:57.about this at Tory conference. Is that coming up? Have got to go there
:07:58. > :08:00.too? One day we will leave Liverpool. People will see that as
:08:01. > :08:05.an opportunity to explain a bit more about her. River Lea, because we
:08:06. > :08:10.need to move on. We'll have a habit of overestimated and overanalysing
:08:11. > :08:13.Theresa May -- briefly. She could be a simple straightforward person who
:08:14. > :08:19.likes to tell the truth, ever thought about that? Never. It is
:08:20. > :08:23.tough to get to the top with people knowing who you are. Why would we
:08:24. > :08:27.want to leave Liverpool? Look over there, it is lovely. It was the
:08:28. > :08:31.result everyone expected. After almost three months
:08:32. > :08:33.of campaigning Labour have the same leader they had before -
:08:34. > :08:36.so can the slate really be wiped clean - as Jeremy Corbyn has urged -
:08:37. > :08:39.or will splits and divisions Adam Fleming has been watching
:08:40. > :08:43.events here in Liverpool unfolding. But it's been about our Labour
:08:44. > :08:45.family facing the future. He was the head of the family last
:08:46. > :08:49.week and he'll be the head So Labour has elected its new leader
:08:50. > :08:56.and is the old leader, So Labour has elected its new leader
:08:57. > :08:59.and it's the old leader, Jeremy Corbyn, winning this contest
:09:00. > :09:01.and winning by a slightly larger In his second victory speech in just
:09:02. > :09:12.over a year Jeremy Corbyn said Labour would fight the Government's
:09:13. > :09:14.plans to extend grammar I'm calling on Labour Party members
:09:15. > :09:18.all over the country to join us in a national campaign for inclusive
:09:19. > :09:21.education for all next Saturday. The Tories' plans for grammar school
:09:22. > :09:36.segregation of our children expose their divisive and damaging
:09:37. > :09:39.agenda for our country. But the big message
:09:40. > :09:44.to his party was this. We have much more in common
:09:45. > :09:47.than that which divides us. As far as I'm concerned let's wipe
:09:48. > :09:59.that slate clean from today and get on with the work we've got to do
:10:00. > :10:02.as a party together. Jezza escaped the cameras to go
:10:03. > :10:04.and celebrate with his allies. Where is the Jeremy
:10:05. > :10:07.Corbyn victory party There will be a number of victory
:10:08. > :10:12.parties, but the most important thing now is just
:10:13. > :10:14.bringing people together. So what Jeremy will be doing
:10:15. > :10:18.is going around all the different individual party receptions,
:10:19. > :10:21.the different regions and giving the same unity message,
:10:22. > :10:24.and he will be drinking, or having cups of tea,
:10:25. > :10:27.with everybody, all sides. As luck would have it we found
:10:28. > :10:30.a persistent Corbyn critic who had just been invited
:10:31. > :10:33.in for a friendly chat. I'm actually just going
:10:34. > :10:35.to see Jeremy Corbyn now. Oh, are you?
:10:36. > :10:37.Have a one-to-one chat? He asked me to see me
:10:38. > :10:47.so I'm going to see him. Can we come with you?
:10:48. > :10:50.Alas, I don't think he'll allow it. And we did, staking out
:10:51. > :10:54.their meeting at the leader's hotel. She didn't sound
:10:55. > :10:55.entirely convinced. It was fine.
:10:56. > :10:58.What happened? He wanted to talk to me because I'm
:10:59. > :11:01.the chair of the women's PLP. It's the right thing to do that
:11:02. > :11:04.Jeremy wanted to see people like me who have our own mandates
:11:05. > :11:06.within the PLP. I think that's
:11:07. > :11:08.the right thing to do. It's whether you listen and then
:11:09. > :11:15.change your actions that matters. Others were less polite on Twitter,
:11:16. > :11:22.posting pictures of their chopped He is hostile to America,
:11:23. > :11:31.he is hostile to business and he's And I'm the reverse on all those
:11:32. > :11:36.issues as well. This is a position,
:11:37. > :11:48.as Leader of The Opposition, where effectively you are in
:11:49. > :11:51.position to become the next You cannot become the Prime Minister
:11:52. > :11:55.of this country unless you appeal to the great population,
:11:56. > :11:57.and in particular middle England. And I think Jeremy has no
:11:58. > :11:59.leadership qualities whatsoever. Back at conference,
:12:00. > :12:02.they were setting up for a meeting Corbyn fans and Corbyn sceptics
:12:03. > :12:05.are deadlocked over reforms to the party, especially
:12:06. > :12:07.plans to revive elections The criticism doesn't matter
:12:08. > :12:16.here at the festival running alongside conference,
:12:17. > :12:17.organised by the pro-Corbyn They are just over the moon
:12:18. > :12:25.that they have managed to get their hero elected,
:12:26. > :12:29.not just once but twice. And we're joined now
:12:30. > :12:41.by the former Shadow Health Welcome back to the Sunday Politics.
:12:42. > :12:45.Tell me, what will go down in history as the most botched coup of
:12:46. > :12:50.2016? Will it be the uprising against President Erdogan in Turkey,
:12:51. > :12:53.or your efforts to unseat Mr Corbyn in the UK?
:12:54. > :12:58.You've started from completely the wrong premise, Andrew, to be honest.
:12:59. > :13:03.As much as you might read in the papers about a finely orchestrated
:13:04. > :13:07.plot and coo, what I know is I resigned at the end of June because
:13:08. > :13:13.I had concerns about Jeremy's capacity to lead the Labour Party. I
:13:14. > :13:17.was worried that in a very complicated situation that we find
:13:18. > :13:21.ourselves in after the results of the referendum he didn't have the
:13:22. > :13:25.capacity to develop the answers that the party needs. So there was a
:13:26. > :13:30.concerted effort to get rid of him. I resigned at the end of June. A
:13:31. > :13:33.number of my colleagues shared the sense of despair and there was
:13:34. > :13:37.clearly a vote of no-confidence in the Parliamentary Labour Party. At
:13:38. > :13:42.the point at which that happened and that the point at which Jeremy said
:13:43. > :13:46.he wasn't going to resign, they had to be a leadership contest. Why did
:13:47. > :13:51.there have to be? What was the point of it? You have left him stronger
:13:52. > :13:55.than ever. What we have done this is have a
:13:56. > :13:58.really important debate about the future of the Labour Party. It was
:13:59. > :14:05.important for members of parliament who with Jeremy day in and day out
:14:06. > :14:09.and who have had growing concerns over the last year to say we've got
:14:10. > :14:14.to change as a party. The next 12 months need to be better than the
:14:15. > :14:17.last 12 months. We need to appeal to the country. We need Jeremy to
:14:18. > :14:22.understand that if we are going to be a credible and effective
:14:23. > :14:26.opposition, and a government in waiting, then he actually needs to
:14:27. > :14:32.get his act together. So does he understand that now? I hope so but
:14:33. > :14:36.only time will tell. It may all be for nothing. You'll have to ask him
:14:37. > :14:41.the next time he comes on your show. You were the ones who sparked this
:14:42. > :14:47.process. Do you now have any doubt that he will lead Labour into the
:14:48. > :14:50.2020 election? Well, a week is a long time in politics, Andrew. Who
:14:51. > :14:56.knows when the next General Election will be? I said 2020, that is when
:14:57. > :14:59.it is scheduled to be but there could be a surprise but Labour would
:15:00. > :15:04.have to vote for that in the Commons. Let's assume it is 2020 and
:15:05. > :15:07.it is the full term. Are you in any doubt that Mr Corbyn will lead your
:15:08. > :15:11.party into that election? Watch Jeremy has got to do is prove he can
:15:12. > :15:14.unite the party and that he can craft a message that appeals to the
:15:15. > :15:19.country. I don't think anyone wants to continue the leadership contest
:15:20. > :15:24.of this summer. But what people like me are determined to do is to
:15:25. > :15:29.continue fighting for a Labour Party that speaks to and for the whole of
:15:30. > :15:34.the country, and one which is capable of winning the next General
:15:35. > :15:38.Election. So you do have some doubts? That is not what I said. We
:15:39. > :15:42.need to focus our efforts... I know what you said about your focus but
:15:43. > :15:46.it is a simple question, do you have doubts that he can win the next
:15:47. > :15:50.General Election? Jeremy needs to prove that he is a competent and
:15:51. > :15:53.capable Leader of the Opposition. You have said that, of course,
:15:54. > :15:56.everybody who is Leader of the Opposition must prove they are
:15:57. > :16:00.competent. It would seem from your inability to give a straight answer
:16:01. > :16:05.that you do have doubts that he will win, indeed you even seem to have
:16:06. > :16:08.doubts that he will lead your party into the next election. I have been
:16:09. > :16:12.honest and it would be quite strange for me having been so explicit over
:16:13. > :16:15.the summer to come onto your programme and say that overnight the
:16:16. > :16:20.concerns that I had expressed had evaporated. Clearly Jeremy is to be
:16:21. > :16:26.congratulated on winning for a second time and he won a clear
:16:27. > :16:29.victory. But because people have voted for him in the numbers that
:16:30. > :16:34.they have doesn't mean that somebody like me automatically changes my
:16:35. > :16:38.mind. There are a number of things that he could do to move the party
:16:39. > :16:43.forward. Give me the most important one. I think he needs to commit
:16:44. > :16:47.unequivocally to a majority of the Shadow Cabinet being elected by the
:16:48. > :16:52.Parliamentary Labour Party. MPs need a new top team to coalesce around.
:16:53. > :16:57.Jeremy has talked about extending an olive branches. Is talked about
:16:58. > :17:05.wiping the slate clean. The time for words is over. -- he has talked. The
:17:06. > :17:11.time for that is over. He needs to say one thing that would show his
:17:12. > :17:13.willingness to compromise. A minority of the Shadow Cabinet
:17:14. > :17:22.should be elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party? --
:17:23. > :17:29.majority. That is the first one. There are other ideas about how the
:17:30. > :17:33.cabinet should be selected. Do you believe he will do that? He's been
:17:34. > :17:38.playing for time in the NEC. What would be useful is in the 24 hours
:17:39. > :17:41.following his election is for him to show that he has learned from the
:17:42. > :17:47.last 12 months and an elected Shadow Cabinet would be one way of doing
:17:48. > :17:51.that. I also think... Can I just ask, why would he do that? His
:17:52. > :17:55.support, his constituency, if I could put it that way, is the
:17:56. > :18:01.membership in the country. Particularly the new members, who
:18:02. > :18:05.gave him 85% of their votes. He knows the PLP cannot stand him. So
:18:06. > :18:08.why would he hand the power to choose his Shadow Cabinet to that
:18:09. > :18:12.part of the Labour Party which likes him least?
:18:13. > :18:19.I think you are characterising the Parliamentary Labour Party
:18:20. > :18:25.incorrectly, Andrew. Jeremy needs to build a team in Parliament in order
:18:26. > :18:28.to fulfil the basic functions of a parliamentary opposition. The basic
:18:29. > :18:33.duties parliamentary opposition cannot be carried out if you don't
:18:34. > :18:37.have a team. Clearly people were concerned about the direction of
:18:38. > :18:41.travel over the past year. We've been concerned about dreadful
:18:42. > :18:49.results in local elections, we've been concerned about the inability
:18:50. > :18:54.to go out and really make the case strongly for us staying in the EU.
:18:55. > :19:04.If Jeremy wants to be a strong and effective opposition, she needs --
:19:05. > :19:08.he needs to be Parliament... All of us need to behave with maturity and
:19:09. > :19:12.humility going forward. I think there's some options here that he
:19:13. > :19:16.could be exploring. All right. If he doesn't follow your advice and if he
:19:17. > :19:22.sticks with the leader largely appointing the Shadow Cabinet, many
:19:23. > :19:26.would say if it was good enough for Ed Miliband to do that it should be
:19:27. > :19:29.good enough for Jeremy Corbyn to do that, if he continues along that
:19:30. > :19:36.route, should centrist MPs like yourself serve in that Shadow
:19:37. > :19:40.Cabinet? I won't be serving in that Shadow Cabinet. I have been explicit
:19:41. > :19:43.in my view this summer, as I've already said to you, they haven't
:19:44. > :19:50.changed overnight simply because Jeremy Paris been elected. Can you
:19:51. > :19:57.just explain, given... I'm not sure what else he has to do. He's won two
:19:58. > :20:02.leadership elections by massive majorities, the second one even
:20:03. > :20:08.bigger than the first. He is clearly the choice of the party in the
:20:09. > :20:11.country. Why would you not join his Shadow Cabinet? Because as I said in
:20:12. > :20:15.the last couple of months, and I'm sorry to say this, but my
:20:16. > :20:18.experiences during that time were that it was dysfunctional and I
:20:19. > :20:23.think behaviours do have to change in order for the Parliamentary
:20:24. > :20:28.Labour Party and the Shadow Cabinet to be a really effective opposition.
:20:29. > :20:33.I think I can best serve the Labour Party and my constituents from the
:20:34. > :20:37.backbenches. If we know how this works... If I were to return to the
:20:38. > :20:40.front bench, in a couple of weeks' time you would be saying to me,
:20:41. > :20:45.Heidi Alexander, you said all of those things over the summer, have
:20:46. > :20:50.you now changed your mind? I don't think that's good for anyone. Would
:20:51. > :20:56.you advise like-minded MPs to do the same, not to join Mr Corbyn's Shadow
:20:57. > :20:59.Cabinet? I think every member of Parliament will ultimately take
:21:00. > :21:04.their own decisions. Would you advise them or just leave them to
:21:05. > :21:07.their own devices? I think if Jeremy commits to having the majority of
:21:08. > :21:11.the Shadow Cabinet elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party, then for
:21:12. > :21:17.some people that might be the right thing to do for them. You backed
:21:18. > :21:23.Owen Smith in this election campaign. If there were a general
:21:24. > :21:26.fear among MPs like yourself that Labour is drifting to father left to
:21:27. > :21:33.be electable for the country as a whole, why if that was the case did
:21:34. > :21:37.Owen Smith not attack a single domestic policy of Jeremy Corbyn's?
:21:38. > :21:40.I think what Owen did throughout the campaign was actually moved beyond
:21:41. > :21:44.the slogans. That's the problem we've had in the last year. Jeremy
:21:45. > :21:49.Thompson about investing ?500 billion in a capital investment
:21:50. > :21:51.programme but has absolutely no idea where that's coming from. -- Jeremy
:21:52. > :22:03.Thompson bout that. -- Jeremy talks about that. Owen
:22:04. > :22:08.Smith is honest and says we would have to borrow. That's what Jeremy
:22:09. > :22:13.Corbyn says! Actually, it's quite different to what Jeremy Corbyn and'
:22:14. > :22:21.John McDonald have been saying. If the fear was drifting to the left
:22:22. > :22:25.and making the party unelectable... It was mainly about, we're just as
:22:26. > :22:29.left wing as Mr Corbyn but we are more unelectable! You didn't have
:22:30. > :22:35.any major policy differences with the leader! I think we did,
:22:36. > :22:38.actually. We spoke about the EU referendum and our commitment and
:22:39. > :22:43.our belief that the British people should have a say on the final
:22:44. > :22:47.Brexit deal, either in a second referendum or at the general
:22:48. > :22:53.election. There were differences around areas of defence policy as
:22:54. > :22:59.well. Domestic policy was my original question. I understand the
:23:00. > :23:05.difference on defence. It's clear that the party membership has
:23:06. > :23:08.changed. Revolution may be too strong a word, but there is a clear
:23:09. > :23:12.difference between the new members who have come in and those who were
:23:13. > :23:18.party members at the election last year and in May of 2015. What would
:23:19. > :23:24.be wrong for these new members to say we would like Labour MPs who
:23:25. > :23:28.more reflect our values, our positions, our policy is that we
:23:29. > :23:32.want to see implemented. What would be wrong with that? I think the
:23:33. > :23:37.Labour Party is quite divided at the moment and we should be honest about
:23:38. > :23:42.that. This is a searing revelation you're giving me this morning (!)
:23:43. > :23:48.Parties change, your party has been reinvigorated with a lot of young,
:23:49. > :23:52.new people coming in. What would be wrong with them saying actually, I
:23:53. > :23:56.would like to have an MP represent me who is more in tune with what
:23:57. > :24:01.I've signed up for? I'm not sure it's really about that, to be
:24:02. > :24:04.honest. My own experience in my constituency, someone who is a
:24:05. > :24:08.hard-working member of Parliament, I've spoken to a lot of those new
:24:09. > :24:13.members who value the work that I do in my constituency but some of whom
:24:14. > :24:17.have taken the decision clearly to vote for Jeremy still. We should
:24:18. > :24:21.remember that since Jeremy Maclin lost the election, 80,000 people
:24:22. > :24:29.joined between then and the freeze date of the 12th of January, so
:24:30. > :24:32.there are 80,000 people who had by and large joint because of Jeremy
:24:33. > :24:40.Vine who had not yet had the opportunity to vote for him. I
:24:41. > :24:44.understand that. Are you in trouble yourself? I hope I'm not but I know
:24:45. > :24:52.there are people who are agitating against it. What do you think when
:24:53. > :24:56.you see Diane Abbott doing that job? I think Diane Abbott has one of the
:24:57. > :25:03.biggest and most responsible jobs in Parliament. I think that she needs a
:25:04. > :25:07.team around her to actually do that job effectively. The only way she
:25:08. > :25:13.will get that team is if Jeremy agrees, I think, to Shadow Cabinet
:25:14. > :25:15.elections. That is a point that has come through loud and clear. Heidi
:25:16. > :25:20.Alexander, thank you. So, Labour MPs who prompted this
:25:21. > :25:22.leadership contest have lost the argument and failed to persuade
:25:23. > :25:25.Labour Party members and supporters But can centrist Labour MPs use
:25:26. > :25:29.the party machinery to take The National Executive Committee
:25:30. > :25:36.is the Labour Party's ruling body. Win control of the NEC and you win
:25:37. > :25:39.control of the beating Since Jeremy Corbyn
:25:40. > :25:47.first became leader, there has been a fine balance
:25:48. > :25:50.on the NEC between his loyalists In anticipation of his re-election,
:25:51. > :25:59.the deputy leader Tom Watson has recently been squaring up
:26:00. > :26:01.to Mr Corbyn in the latest The committee has 33 members
:26:02. > :26:04.representing local parties, unions, Going into the party's conference,
:26:05. > :26:11.the NEC looks to have tipped slightly in the leader's favour,
:26:12. > :26:13.with 18 Corbyn-leaning members Although one or two of these
:26:14. > :26:17.could tilt either way The pro-Corbyn block has been
:26:18. > :26:25.boosted by two new members. Rhea Wolfson and Claudia Webbe,
:26:26. > :26:29.who will replace two However, the NEC recently agreed
:26:30. > :26:34.a rule change that could allow Scottish Labour
:26:35. > :26:38.leader Kezia Dugdale and Welsh First Minister Carwyn
:26:39. > :26:41.Jones, both hostile to Mr Corbyn, Tom Watson is also leading the move
:26:42. > :26:47.to restore elections to the Shadow Cabinet,
:26:48. > :26:54.a plan overwhelmingly The Shadow Cabinet currently picks
:26:55. > :27:08.three of its own to sit on the NEC, currently two of the three,
:27:09. > :27:14.Jon Trickett and Rebecca The other, Jonathan Ashworth,
:27:15. > :27:17.is a Corbyn sceptic. If Labour MPs were allowed to elect
:27:18. > :27:21.people to the Shadow Cabinet it could result in more centrists
:27:22. > :27:23.on the NEC. Meanwhile, Mr Corbyn is promoting
:27:24. > :27:25.the idea of giving ordinary party members and trade unions more
:27:26. > :27:27.say on the committee. Control of the NEC could allow
:27:28. > :27:30.Jeremy Corbyn and his allies to change the rules for future
:27:31. > :27:32.leadership elections, which would make it almost
:27:33. > :27:35.impossible for MPs and MEPs to stop another left-wing candidate making
:27:36. > :27:37.a future bid for the leadership. And the move perhaps most feared
:27:38. > :27:50.by MPs, a mandatory reselection We're joined now by Rhea Wolfson -
:27:51. > :27:53.a Jeremy Corbyn supporter who was recently elected to the NEC
:27:54. > :27:56.and takes up her seat at the end of the week -
:27:57. > :27:59.and by Luke Akehurst who supported Owen Smith
:28:00. > :28:18.in the leadership election. It is very finely balanced. The
:28:19. > :28:26.figures I would have would be 16 members that clearly support Corbyn
:28:27. > :28:34.and maybe 17 that don't. Do you agree with that? Yes, I think it is
:28:35. > :28:41.very finely balanced. With the recent elections, with Jeremy Corbyn
:28:42. > :28:45.supporters winning all those seeds, if not tipping the balance. What
:28:46. > :28:49.about this decision to appoint Scottish and Welsh representatives
:28:50. > :28:52.to the NEC? I understand as it stands at the moment that they would
:28:53. > :28:56.be appointed by the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Labour parties.
:28:57. > :29:02.In other words, appointed by Labour sceptics. Will that switch the
:29:03. > :29:06.balance more against Mr Corbyn? On its own merits it's a good thing
:29:07. > :29:11.because it is an obvious gap that there hasn't been Scottish and Welsh
:29:12. > :29:16.representation, but if you look at the front is in those two countries,
:29:17. > :29:21.it probably wouldn't be hugely helpful to him. What would you think
:29:22. > :29:24.of that? I agree it probably would change the balance of power. I'm
:29:25. > :29:29.really disappointed with how this has come about and I think it's
:29:30. > :29:36.incredibly important to have elected Scottish and Welsh representative.
:29:37. > :29:39.So you think that if we do have Scottish and Welsh representatives,
:29:40. > :29:44.they should be elected by the membership in Scotland and Wales?
:29:45. > :29:47.Absolutely. It's not an interim think is not as if we're moving
:29:48. > :29:51.towards having better representation, it's actually taking
:29:52. > :29:57.an incredibly important issue of the table. During the Commons review,
:29:58. > :30:03.the moderate wing of the party actually put forward proposals that
:30:04. > :30:07.would have guaranteed members on the NEC LX did buy one member one vote
:30:08. > :30:11.from each nation and region of the UK and we didn't manage to get that
:30:12. > :30:16.through and in fact the left of the party opposed it at the time. Or is
:30:17. > :30:21.it going to happen, the Scottish and Welsh wraps being appointed? I
:30:22. > :30:25.understand there may be attempt to overturn it this week on the
:30:26. > :30:28.conference floor. I think that's probably one of the more interesting
:30:29. > :30:33.things that will happen this week, it will probably go to a vote on
:30:34. > :30:36.conference floor. I'm probably reasonably confident at least on the
:30:37. > :30:46.side of the constituency delegates that moderates did well in those.
:30:47. > :30:50.Three members of the Shadow Cabinet get to go on to the NEC and that
:30:51. > :30:54.could change the balance of power as well. Are you in favour of elections
:30:55. > :31:03.for the Shadow Cabinet, and if so, by whom? In principle... Again, I
:31:04. > :31:07.don't want to take this conversation out of context and don't think you
:31:08. > :31:15.can. This is all about political Moon over in again. My concern is
:31:16. > :31:22.this is to undermine Corbyn. I'm not a fan of people saying they won't
:31:23. > :31:26.serve unless elected. I am accountable to members. How would
:31:27. > :31:31.you like to see the Shadow Cabinet chosen, then? I would be willing to
:31:32. > :31:34.listen to the practicalities about the accommodation of having it
:31:35. > :31:39.entirely elected by members. All elected?
:31:40. > :31:48.But not by the PLP? That could be compromise. There was one third, one
:31:49. > :31:57.third, one third. I would consider that, an electoral college. The PLP
:31:58. > :32:03.could choose the Shadow Cabinet, as has been suggested. Will Corbyn
:32:04. > :32:08.agree to that? It depends if Jeremy is serious about what he says about
:32:09. > :32:12.party unity and olive branches. I want to at least see functional
:32:13. > :32:15.unity where the Labour Party gets on with its job of holding the Tories
:32:16. > :32:20.to account and attacking the weak government. In order to do that you
:32:21. > :32:22.need people to come back who resigned this summer. There will not
:32:23. > :32:26.come back unless they have an independent mandate from the PLP. A
:32:27. > :32:32.few might but to get everyone re-engaged there has got to be some
:32:33. > :32:37.kind of concession who were unhappy with Jeremy Bosman leadership, it is
:32:38. > :32:41.political reality. Mr Corbyn has won two leadership elections in a row.
:32:42. > :32:50.If MPs who were disillusioned with him continue to snap, in the words
:32:51. > :32:53.of Len McCluskey, the Unite leader, do they risk the selection and
:32:54. > :32:58.should they? I don't like talking about the selection process is like
:32:59. > :33:02.that, it makes it seem like people are trying to seize power. That's a
:33:03. > :33:05.decision for local parties. The conversation we should be having,
:33:06. > :33:09.and why this conversation has come about because of mandatory
:33:10. > :33:13.deselection, it's because people are unhappy, there is a rift between the
:33:14. > :33:16.PLP and party members and that must be resolved, and it can be in other
:33:17. > :33:20.ways apart from mandatory deselection. I think those other
:33:21. > :33:24.ways should be the priority. Aren't we in a process where the
:33:25. > :33:28.Parliamentary Labour Party now has to change to reflect the membership
:33:29. > :33:31.of the new Labour Party? At the moment there is a disconnect between
:33:32. > :33:35.the kind of people who have signed up to join Labour and the sort of
:33:36. > :33:40.people who represent Labour in the PLP. Is it not inevitable that some
:33:41. > :33:45.of these will be changed in the months and years ahead? Or the other
:33:46. > :33:49.way it could happen is that the composition of the membership could
:33:50. > :33:53.change to reflect Labour voters more. At the moment we have a
:33:54. > :33:58.membership that his weight to the left even of the people who already
:33:59. > :34:02.vote Labour. Demographically it is dominated by graduates and well off
:34:03. > :34:06.people from the south of England so it doesn't represent the Labour
:34:07. > :34:12.heartlands. So are you going to start a centrist Momentum? There was
:34:13. > :34:16.an initial amount of work on recruitment, one of the mistakes in
:34:17. > :34:19.the leadership election was not have a lot in the phase that you could
:34:20. > :34:26.reach out to the country and persuade loads of people to come
:34:27. > :34:32.back. The moderate wing of the party will not win until we learn how to
:34:33. > :34:35.recruit a mass membership in the same way Jeremy Corbyn has done.
:34:36. > :34:41.It's going to be an interesting time at the NEC. It will be interesting!
:34:42. > :34:44.It's just gone 11.37am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:34:45. > :34:46.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:34:47. > :34:50.Coming up here in 20 minutes, I'll be talking to former
:34:51. > :34:51.Deputy Prime minister and conference stalwart,
:34:52. > :34:58.First, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:34:59. > :35:09.Jeremy Corbyn's strengthened mandate among a membership
:35:10. > :35:17.And catching our eye in particular is the Sunday Times, which has
:35:18. > :35:19.the headline that London's Mayor, Sadiq Khan, thinks "a Corbyn purge
:35:20. > :35:27.That is what the headline says. This is about the threat of deselection
:35:28. > :35:29.to MPs and so on. What about that relationship
:35:30. > :35:31.between Corbyn and Khan? A little later, we'll
:35:32. > :35:33.be wondering aloud whether Mr Khan may one
:35:34. > :35:35.day, or even now, have It looks like that particular
:35:36. > :35:44.tendency could be catching, But there was an exception -
:35:45. > :35:49.one of our guests today, Ken Livingstone,
:35:50. > :35:54.London's first Mayor, who didn't have his eye on the top
:35:55. > :35:57.job, to our knowledge. Neither, as far as we know,
:35:58. > :35:59.does Theresa Villiers, but we'll find that out later,
:36:00. > :36:06.now that she is no Ken Livingstone, let's start on
:36:07. > :36:10.Labour, of course. Heidi Alexander has just told Andrew that Jeremy
:36:11. > :36:16.Corbyn, his leadership etc, he really needs to get his act
:36:17. > :36:20.together. Do you agree? No. The simple fact is we have had a year of
:36:21. > :36:25.Labour MPs underlining Jeremy and making personal attacks. You look
:36:26. > :36:30.back at the days when we had Tony Blair -- undermining Jeremy. We
:36:31. > :36:35.criticised policies, we didn't say this man is not fit to govern. That
:36:36. > :36:38.has been damaging to the Labour Party. They've got to accept it,
:36:39. > :36:42.they will not get rid of Jeremy. We should focus on persuading people
:36:43. > :36:45.that Jeremy's economic strategy could actually work. Massive
:36:46. > :36:50.investment, modernising our infrastructure, cracking down on
:36:51. > :36:53.Google and Starbucks so they pay their fair share of tax so we can
:36:54. > :36:57.put more money into education and health without taxing ordinary
:36:58. > :37:00.people. What happens now? Does he offer that olive branch to those
:37:01. > :37:06.MPs, former Shadow Cabinet members who have left? He did a year ago.
:37:07. > :37:10.Should he do it now? He will, he will be on the phone to them. Some
:37:11. > :37:14.have already said they will not come back and join but I think we just
:37:15. > :37:19.have to move on from that. 35 years ago when the SDP split happened the
:37:20. > :37:23.people leading that were giant figures, everyone in Britain knew
:37:24. > :37:25.who they were. These people criticising Jeremy, most people
:37:26. > :37:29.haven't got a clue who they are. What do you feel about inviting
:37:30. > :37:34.people back? Would you like Heidi Alexander, who is still critical,
:37:35. > :37:40.invited back? I think Jeremy will. Do you think he should? I think he
:37:41. > :37:44.will and he should. If they stay in that it on the backbenches that is
:37:45. > :37:47.up to them, we will get on with campaigning and reaching out to the
:37:48. > :37:51.public not worrying too much about a few embittered old Blairites. How do
:37:52. > :37:56.you feel about this? He seems to be offering warm words this morning,
:37:57. > :37:59.Jeremy Corbyn, to Andrew Marr, reassuring those MPs who were
:38:00. > :38:05.worried about the threat of deselection? How do you feel about
:38:06. > :38:07.these MPs who campaigned against him automatically being reselected? I've
:38:08. > :38:11.always been in favour of reselection. When I was Labour MP
:38:12. > :38:14.for Brent East the right-wingers would put up a candidate against me
:38:15. > :38:20.and I didn't object to that. If you look at America, everyone from the
:38:21. > :38:26.President down to small-time mayor are up for reselection in every
:38:27. > :38:30.election, it's about democracy. Jeremy has made it quite clear he
:38:31. > :38:33.will not bring back automatic reselection because that would mean
:38:34. > :38:37.further schisms in the party. So you wouldn't want to see it? I
:38:38. > :38:43.personally would but if you look back, we introduced it in about 1980
:38:44. > :38:46.and carried on until Blair got in at only about five MPs wherever
:38:47. > :38:51.deselected. Do you have any optimism that the kind of civil war, or
:38:52. > :38:56.whatever it is, is going to ease? I think it will because there will be
:38:57. > :39:00.a large block of MPs in Labour who oppose Jeremy, who now recognise
:39:01. > :39:02.they have got Jeremy up to the next General Election and they will get
:39:03. > :39:06.behind him because they would rather see a Labour government and another
:39:07. > :39:10.five years of the Tories. The vast bulk will come on board but there
:39:11. > :39:13.will be some sitting around whining on the backbenches. What is your
:39:14. > :39:17.advice? How is Jeremy Corbyn going to win those kind of seats that
:39:18. > :39:21.ensures he forms a government? You cannot look me in the eye and say he
:39:22. > :39:26.is in that position now? Do you agree? We have the economic strategy
:39:27. > :39:30.that could work. Every time Labour lost a General Election is because
:39:31. > :39:34.people didn't think our economic policy was credible. Jeremy's is.
:39:35. > :39:38.It's the policy that many on the left have been arguing for four
:39:39. > :39:43.years. Massive investment. We are so run down as a country. Look at the
:39:44. > :39:47.state of our roads, our broadband is positively antique compare to what
:39:48. > :39:51.you've got in places like China and Hong Kong. Theresa, we cannot let
:39:52. > :39:54.you be a spectator any longer. The ideal time in chipping Barnett and
:39:55. > :39:58.across London and everywhere else to go for a snap election. Well, I
:39:59. > :40:02.don't think we should rush into a snap election, but I do think the
:40:03. > :40:08.Labour Party is in a disastrous state. They are massively divided.
:40:09. > :40:14.They are chaotic and incompetent. And just to hear Jeremy Corbyn on
:40:15. > :40:18.the BBC this morning talking about, oh well, the previous Labour
:40:19. > :40:24.government didn't spend too much, he just doesn't get the fact that you
:40:25. > :40:28.have to live within your means to run a healthy economy. You have to
:40:29. > :40:32.have helped the public finances to allow businesses to grow to deliver
:40:33. > :40:37.the economic stability we need for jobs. And if we can't do that then
:40:38. > :40:41.the NHS will suffer, our transport will suffer. The people who suffer
:40:42. > :40:45.most when people like Jeremy Corbyn get in charge of the public finances
:40:46. > :40:48.and messed them up, the people who suffer most are the most
:40:49. > :40:52.disadvantaged in our society. That you haven't added yet, we should
:40:53. > :40:56.never be complacent. We are absolutely not complacent because we
:40:57. > :41:00.know there are important things we need to change in this country, we
:41:01. > :41:04.need to make our transport system better. We need to ensure that it's
:41:05. > :41:08.a country that works for everyone, that everyone shares in the benefits
:41:09. > :41:12.of economic growth. But the reality is that it would be reckless and
:41:13. > :41:17.disastrous for this country if Labour became the next government.
:41:18. > :41:21.It would be chaos. Dying to come back on that, Ken, but you can pick
:41:22. > :41:24.up on it in the next section, if you like!
:41:25. > :41:27.Londoners have got very used to stories of tensions between City
:41:28. > :41:30.Remember the warmth between Mr Livingstone and Mr Brown?
:41:31. > :41:34.A few months into his mayoralty - and with his very big
:41:35. > :41:36.personal mandate - is Sadiq Khan an asset
:41:37. > :41:47.The story of Labour's Civil War has twists and turns worthy
:41:48. > :41:54.In a dramatic series finale, house Corbyn saw of its rivals
:41:55. > :41:57.In a dramatic series finale, house Corbyn saw off its rivals
:41:58. > :42:01.So what now for the man across the water in City Hall, Sadiq Khan?
:42:02. > :42:04.Arguably the most powerful Labour politician in the country.
:42:05. > :42:13.Once upon a time cover two were happy to pose
:42:14. > :42:17.Last year, Sadiq Khan even nominated Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership.
:42:18. > :42:19.But since then, there have been disagreements over everything
:42:20. > :42:22.from singing the national anthem to whether to campaign with
:42:23. > :42:25.Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell said it discredited
:42:26. > :42:30.And come this summer, Sadiq Khan support a change
:42:31. > :42:35.Owen Smith is the right leader for our party and why I think he's
:42:36. > :42:39.the best chance we've got to win the next election.
:42:40. > :42:42.It is smart of Sadiq to be this counterpoint to Corbyn,
:42:43. > :42:45.to say that "Corbyn can do his thing and get people into his rallies,
:42:46. > :42:47.but what I'm interested in is government, power,
:42:48. > :42:49.changing laws and making life better for people."
:42:50. > :42:51.All things that critics of the Labour leader
:42:52. > :42:54.That he is too focused on ideological purity,
:42:55. > :42:58.But since that wasn't the view of party members,
:42:59. > :43:04.His first move was to congratulate Corbyn on his victory.
:43:05. > :43:07.Here is Hammersmith MP Andy Slaughter, a friend
:43:08. > :43:14.I think he will bring the Labour Party down-to-earth
:43:15. > :43:17.and say it's hard work winning elections and it is even harder
:43:18. > :43:26.And he's done the first spectacularly and he's done a good
:43:27. > :43:29.job so far in his first 100 days setting out his programme,
:43:30. > :43:31.and he's got some solid achievements there, particularly
:43:32. > :43:34.And he's saying, this is what I'm doing, you should all
:43:35. > :43:39.But Corbyn supporters say that what Labour should actually be doing
:43:40. > :43:43.The Labour Party has twice said that they would like
:43:44. > :43:47.I think for some sections of the party, I think it's really
:43:48. > :43:51.time to internalise that reality and figure out how to work
:43:52. > :43:54.within it, but what we're seeing instead is this tendency to sort
:43:55. > :43:57.of cast around and look for other potential leaders, who would perhaps
:43:58. > :44:00.be better to lead the party, rather than to focus on the actual
:44:01. > :44:08.elected leader and how they might unite around him.
:44:09. > :44:12.A clue about how things are going to go could well come
:44:13. > :44:17.from the Labour conference this week and how the man uses his speech.
:44:18. > :44:20.from the Labour conference this week and how the Mayor uses his speech.
:44:21. > :44:22.Speculation is already one running high.
:44:23. > :44:27.I don't think Sadiq is going to cause too much mischief.
:44:28. > :44:30.I would be surprised if he mentions Corbyn more than a few times,
:44:31. > :44:35.But I think above all what he will do is use that as a message,
:44:36. > :44:38.sorry, as a platform, to present himself as a rival future leader.
:44:39. > :44:41.I think Sadiq is basically going to use the next nine years,
:44:42. > :44:43.between now and 2025, to present himself as an alternative
:44:44. > :44:46.leader for Labour who could actually become Prime Minister and take back
:44:47. > :44:49.control of that place over there, the House of Commons.
:44:50. > :44:52.Before getting too carried away with the idea of two warring clans,
:44:53. > :44:54.it's worth remembering that Sadiq Khan has never said he wants
:44:55. > :45:00.The idea of a clash between two rival powers could turn out to be
:45:01. > :45:03.more of a fantasy story than a reality.
:45:04. > :45:10.We could of course be jumping the gun a little. But what harm in that?
:45:11. > :45:16.What do you say about the election result going back to May? Was down
:45:17. > :45:21.to Sadiq Khan's unique gifts, or down to Jeremy Corbyn and Jeremy
:45:22. > :45:27.Corbyn's Labour that he won? Both coming together. Which was more
:45:28. > :45:30.important? I think it was the fact that amongst Londoners it was a
:45:31. > :45:34.rejection of an unpleasant Tory campaign smearing Sadiq Khan as a
:45:35. > :45:39.terrorist sympathiser. People were not going to do that, Londoners are
:45:40. > :45:43.not stupid, they knew that Muslims and terrorists are not synonymous
:45:44. > :45:47.and it was an unpleasant campaign. Jeremy threw everything behind
:45:48. > :45:52.getting him elected. If you look at the result, he was only 1% less than
:45:53. > :45:58.when I won in 2000, the best result we had anywhere in the country.
:45:59. > :46:07.He didn't campaign with Jeremy Corbyn much during the campaign. We
:46:08. > :46:15.see things like Corbyn purge could destroy the country and, you have to
:46:16. > :46:21.win elections before you achieve anything. I think Sadiq Khan should
:46:22. > :46:24.not be undermining Jeremy Hunt that way. He's nowhere near as bad as
:46:25. > :46:28.some of the MPs in terms of what he's saying. If you look at the
:46:29. > :46:32.problems I had with Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, I was expelled from
:46:33. > :46:36.the Labour Party and Lord Browne didn't speak to me until he became
:46:37. > :46:41.Prime Minister. I think if we saw a Labour government, Sadiq Khan and
:46:42. > :46:45.Jeremy would get on fine with a major programme of investment,
:46:46. > :46:49.building new council houses on things like that, and Jeremy knows
:46:50. > :46:54.that. But do you think it is undermining Jeremy? It is a bit, but
:46:55. > :46:58.Jeremy Paris been re-elected, everyone including Sadiq have to put
:46:59. > :47:03.that behind them and we have to focus on explaining to people how we
:47:04. > :47:10.can do better, grow the economy. Germany export five times what we do
:47:11. > :47:15.to China. They have never allowed their banks to dictate the economy.
:47:16. > :47:26.They have modernised... We have allowed hours to die out. Frankly I
:47:27. > :47:29.wouldn't have got involved when I was Mayor of London in internal
:47:30. > :47:32.party conflicts like that because you've got to work with whoever wins
:47:33. > :47:38.and you don't want to do anything to damage your relationship with them.
:47:39. > :47:45.He called for your suspension over those remarks at the time, which we
:47:46. > :47:51.don't have to rehearse. He was probably misled. If you look at the
:47:52. > :47:57.home affairs select it says in the statement... If I had said that, I
:47:58. > :48:02.would have apologise, but I didn't say that. The fact that he chose
:48:03. > :48:04.that opportunity to say you should be suspended straightaway and you
:48:05. > :48:09.were someone who had backed him to be mayor? What was interesting, the
:48:10. > :48:16.people backing Jeremy Campbell 90% of them were voting for Sadiq and
:48:17. > :48:20.vice versa. They were both seen as good candidates with an alternative
:48:21. > :48:26.to the Blair years and I think Sadiq should put that behind them now and
:48:27. > :48:28.work with Jeremy. If we can elect a Labour government, Sadiq will get
:48:29. > :48:34.billions of pounds for investment in London. The discussion we have is
:48:35. > :48:39.all about the labour mayoral figure, but how disappointed are you with
:48:40. > :48:42.that result? I was obviously hugely disappointed that Zac Goldsmith did
:48:43. > :48:49.not win the election, I think he would have been a great mayor, but
:48:50. > :48:54.the government will try to work constructively with Sadiq on matters
:48:55. > :48:58.important to all Londoners. Ken Livingstone mentions the negative
:48:59. > :49:02.nature of the campaign, widely perceived? The questions were asked
:49:03. > :49:07.and Sadiq has answered them in terms of being elected and we need to move
:49:08. > :49:13.on from that and work constructively together. It was a bit more than
:49:14. > :49:16.that. The vast majority of the campaign was about issues of concern
:49:17. > :49:23.to Londoners, how much they pay in council tax, the transport system,
:49:24. > :49:29.policing. There was discussion at the end about people with whom Sadiq
:49:30. > :49:33.had shared a platform but that was elected and he won, so we move on.
:49:34. > :49:38.You say you want to see a constructive relationship between
:49:39. > :49:42.the government and the mayor, but at the same time, you want to make
:49:43. > :49:47.things difficult for him because he is a Labour mayor? We will certainly
:49:48. > :49:51.hold him to account. This idea of a big difference between him and
:49:52. > :49:54.Jeremy Corbyn is overplayed, frankly. What they have in common is
:49:55. > :49:58.that they both want to carry on borrowing forever and they want to
:49:59. > :50:03.raise taxes. I believe Labour in power in this country would be
:50:04. > :50:07.severely damaging to jobs and economic stability. They are
:50:08. > :50:24.different but what unites them is the not balancing the books. The
:50:25. > :50:29.simple fact is that John McDonnell, every budget he produced was
:50:30. > :50:34.balanced and there was not a penny of borrowing for revenue. Every
:50:35. > :50:39.government, they have all borrowed. The simple fact is, with the
:50:40. > :50:45.exception of two years under Nigella Lawson, Tory governments have
:50:46. > :50:53.borrowed 2% to 3% of GDP to balance their budget. Before we start
:50:54. > :50:58.heading into that macroeconomic, let's move on a bit.
:50:59. > :51:02.We've entered a fresh phase in Ukip's life
:51:03. > :51:04.with Nigel Farage stepping down and a new leader,
:51:05. > :51:06.another MEP, Diane James, taking hold of the reins.
:51:07. > :51:08.She describes those in favour of staying
:51:09. > :51:15.60% of Londoners voted to remain, everyone acknowledges that figure.
:51:16. > :51:18.My use of the term Remainiacs was to refer to the absolutely small
:51:19. > :51:20.core that just want to completely ignore the outcome of
:51:21. > :51:27.Should the 1 million Londoners, people working here but who come
:51:28. > :51:30.from other EU member states, have anything to fear from Ukip
:51:31. > :51:42.Right the way through the referendum campaign, Ukip made the point,
:51:43. > :51:45.we were not looking at mass expulsion, from either
:51:46. > :51:47.the United Kingdom back to Europe or expecting our member state
:51:48. > :51:49.counterparts in Europe to reciprocate and expel people.
:51:50. > :51:54.That is not what grown-up countries do.
:51:55. > :51:56.So there is no risk, no threat at all from Ukip.
:51:57. > :51:59.If anything, there is a risk and a threat coming from this
:52:00. > :52:04.current government, that is yet to come off the fence
:52:05. > :52:06.and actually straightforwardly set out that individuals
:52:07. > :52:08.from European Union states who are here lawfully
:52:09. > :52:11.and legally are here to stay and can enjoy being a member
:52:12. > :52:17.and contribute to the fabric of United Kingdom's society.
:52:18. > :52:27.A new face, a new town. New danger? I think Ukip are sort of struggling
:52:28. > :52:32.to find a role for themselves. They are more divided than the Labour
:52:33. > :52:38.Party but more importantly a lot of their supporters are rejoining the
:52:39. > :52:42.Conservatives, because we gave the country the choice of whether to be
:52:43. > :52:46.in the EU and now we've voted to leave, that significantly undermines
:52:47. > :52:51.the point of Ukip. Do they still represent a danger to Labour in
:52:52. > :52:56.particular in northern areas? Wanting to get back the east of
:52:57. > :53:04.London, Kent and so on? There are a lot of traditional working class
:53:05. > :53:08.areas where people felt a Labour government... In Scotland they voted
:53:09. > :53:13.SNP, in the north they voted for Ukip. We have to show these people
:53:14. > :53:21.that we can get homes for them to rent or buy and we can give good
:53:22. > :53:25.education for their children. Theresa May asked a dozen times may
:53:26. > :53:30.be to come out and stand up and be more part of supporting David
:53:31. > :53:36.Cameron. A secret Brexiteer, do you think? Was she on your side,
:53:37. > :53:45.privately, maybe? There were times when I did wonder! Her speech in the
:53:46. > :53:49.referendum campaign expressed real concerns about the possibility of
:53:50. > :53:53.Turkey joining the EU and it also said that the sky is not going to
:53:54. > :53:57.fall in if we leave. There were certain pointers in it which I think
:53:58. > :54:00.were a lot more pragmatic and down-to-earth than what some of the
:54:01. > :54:06.other Remainers were saying. I think she was genuinely listening to both
:54:07. > :54:12.sides. Do you think she had an idea that she would be challenging for
:54:13. > :54:16.the leadership and all that? I think despite all the acres of newsprint
:54:17. > :54:20.to the contrary, this was a defining issue for us in all parts of the
:54:21. > :54:23.political spectrum. We had to decide, did we want to be an
:54:24. > :54:28.independent self-governing country again? What about her and her
:54:29. > :54:33.position? She was not out there fighting tooth and nail with George
:54:34. > :54:38.Osborne and David Cameron and so on. She took a side and made a decision.
:54:39. > :54:43.She's always been strongly in favour of the security co-operation that
:54:44. > :54:47.comes with being in the EU, I think. Budgie also recognised that there
:54:48. > :54:52.were credible arguments on both sides and I think that was
:54:53. > :54:55.represented in how she approached the referendum campaign.
:54:56. > :55:02.Now the rest of the week's political news in 60 seconds.
:55:03. > :55:07.London Mayor Sadiq Khan has asked the MP for Barking,
:55:08. > :55:10.Margaret Hodge, to chair a review of the Garden Bridge project.
:55:11. > :55:13.Ms Hodge will examine whether value for money has been achieved
:55:14. > :55:15.from the taxpayer's ?60 million contribution to the bridge.
:55:16. > :55:18.The mayor has said no more taxpayer money should be spent on the bridge.
:55:19. > :55:21.A compulsory purchase order to make residents of a London
:55:22. > :55:23.council estate sell their flats, ahead of a regeneration
:55:24. > :55:26.Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Sajid Javid,
:55:27. > :55:30.told Southwark Council it had not done enough to protect Aylesbury
:55:31. > :55:32.estate residents, arguing that the residents would not be able
:55:33. > :55:39.to stay on the estate or live nearby.
:55:40. > :55:42.Sadiq Khan has called for London to get New York-style powers over
:55:43. > :55:44.taxes and public services, following his five-day
:55:45. > :55:47.tour of North America, urging the Government to devolve
:55:48. > :55:55.more responsibility to City Hall over areas including transport,
:55:56. > :56:11.Going ahead with the Garden Bridge, it is not to latest grab this? I
:56:12. > :56:14.have to say, I'm not an enthusiast for the garden bridge. If it's going
:56:15. > :56:18.to happen, I don't think there should be more public money poured
:56:19. > :56:22.into it. It was always an idea as something promoted as something that
:56:23. > :56:26.would be built and funded by the private sector. It has to be that,
:56:27. > :56:31.doesn't it? I know there is a certain amount of money committed to
:56:32. > :56:37.it already and I'm reluctant to see that, to be honest, but I don't want
:56:38. > :56:41.to see any more spent on it. Labour were saying we want to build this
:56:42. > :56:45.garden bridge, all the money would be raised by the private sector,
:56:46. > :56:49.they didn't ask me for a penny. Now they're talking about ?60 million
:56:50. > :56:55.going into it. If you've got that sort of money, that are much more
:56:56. > :56:59.important areas to build a bridge, like parts of East London where
:57:00. > :57:04.there aren't any bridges. I would say, if you want to build it, that's
:57:05. > :57:08.fine, but don't come to me or TEFL or that money because it can be
:57:09. > :57:12.better spent elsewhere. It looks like she's a bit cold on northern
:57:13. > :57:18.devolution and all that stuff? I think if we devolve in London, we
:57:19. > :57:20.should devolve to the borough 's. They are closest to local
:57:21. > :57:25.communities. Sometimes devolution in London seems to involve a withdrawal
:57:26. > :57:29.of powers from the borough is to the mayor. Absolutely dissolve
:57:30. > :57:41.everything. We are the most centralised of all the Western
:57:42. > :57:50.democracies. I was explaining to a Russian politician about the system
:57:51. > :58:06.and he said it is worse than under Stalin!
:58:07. > :58:09.Welcome back - and we're joined now by John Prescott, who's been coming
:58:10. > :58:10.to Labour Conferences for more than 50 years.
:58:11. > :58:12.And our political panel, Tom Newton-Dunn, Rachel Shabi
:58:13. > :58:19.John Prescott, welcome back to the Sunday Politics and a Labour
:58:20. > :58:27.conference. In a much changed Liverpool! I can't believe it. That
:58:28. > :58:34.looks amazing. Has the Labour Party ever been at a low ahead in the past
:58:35. > :58:38.50 is? It's an interesting question. I hear everyone going back 50 years
:58:39. > :58:43.but we've always had fierce battles in the Labour Party, whether it was
:58:44. > :58:48.nuclear or the left or the right, we used to fight over the Treasurer's
:58:49. > :58:53.vote! There have always been those strong battles. It has become more
:58:54. > :58:57.personal now, it is more abuse than argument and we've got to move away
:58:58. > :59:03.from that. Do you share the fears of your old colleague Neil Kinnock,
:59:04. > :59:07.that there might not be another Labour government in his lifetime?
:59:08. > :59:15.Who was that? Neil Kinnock, former leader of the Labour Party? When I
:59:16. > :59:19.heard him saying there will never be another Labour government in his
:59:20. > :59:25.lifetime... Basically, Neil, you did lose to elections and Michael foot
:59:26. > :59:30.lost that election. We lost with Ed Miliband... There is no doubt he's
:59:31. > :59:36.got great experience of that but he is wrong! I thought we would get to
:59:37. > :59:40.the answer! Is the Labour Party at a very low ebb? It is, but I think
:59:41. > :59:45.you're absolutely right, it is a great myth that in the past there
:59:46. > :59:52.weren't huge, passionate internal debates. Under Wilson's leadership,
:59:53. > :59:56.there were problems all over the place but he won for elections out
:59:57. > :59:59.of five, he always used to say. It has become much more personal now
:00:00. > :00:02.with the social media thing going on in that kind of raises it to a
:00:03. > :00:11.different temperature. If it was accepted they could argue
:00:12. > :00:14.over policy, as was in the past and as will be the case with the
:00:15. > :00:19.Conservatives over Brexit, then there might be a way of working
:00:20. > :00:21.around this. As things stand at the moment it is a completely
:00:22. > :00:25.nightmarish, circuitous debate where the MPs slack him off and his
:00:26. > :00:29.supporters slack them off and it gets nowhere. The danger for Labour
:00:30. > :00:33.is earlier in the programme we talked about elections to the NEC
:00:34. > :00:36.and who will hold the balance of power there and the battles coming
:00:37. > :00:39.of the argument over how to choose the Shadow Cabinet, Labour can't
:00:40. > :00:46.afford another year of talking about itself. No, that is right, and the
:00:47. > :00:49.public isn't remotely interested in these very tedious internal
:00:50. > :00:54.machinations. Look, Jeremy Corbyn has proved himself twice. There can
:00:55. > :00:59.be no clearer message that the party really needs to put this behind them
:01:00. > :01:03.and focus on unifying. I think the other great myth, we're talking
:01:04. > :01:07.about the myths of history and time and the centre-right. The myth is
:01:08. > :01:11.that they have all the answers. They clearly don't. They haven't been
:01:12. > :01:17.able to persuade their own selectors of their own eligibility and they
:01:18. > :01:20.haven't been able to persuade the general public that a right words
:01:21. > :01:27.shifting Labour Party is preferable and desirable. So maybe it's time
:01:28. > :01:32.for them to think, you know what, Jeremy Corbyn has won two leadership
:01:33. > :01:36.elections, he has caused the party to be swelled, its ranks swelled and
:01:37. > :01:39.it's the largest party in Europe and people are galvanised, motivated and
:01:40. > :01:43.energised in a way they haven't been for so long. People have been
:01:44. > :01:46.apathetic about politics for so long. May be that wing of the party
:01:47. > :01:50.has something to learn from Corbyn rather than the other way around. I
:01:51. > :01:56.couldn't get Heidi Alexander to answer this. Is there any doubt that
:01:57. > :02:00.Jeremy Corbyn leads Labour into the 2020 election? I think there is a
:02:01. > :02:06.small doubt. He could still be toppled. Who would topple him? The
:02:07. > :02:09.unions. This massive force in Labour politics, centre-left politics,
:02:10. > :02:12.which no one has come close to talking about in the last few days,
:02:13. > :02:21.we have a huge election coming up the after next for the Unite union.
:02:22. > :02:25.Len McCluskey is running again. If he stands down, they have already
:02:26. > :02:31.lost the GMB and Unison are not fond of him, if he does go it is curtains
:02:32. > :02:34.for him. It is about fundamental change taking place. Everyone of us
:02:35. > :02:39.has got to think differently, including me. They have all got to
:02:40. > :02:42.say for the party have said this with their new members, we have a
:02:43. > :02:46.different way of doing things and we want some of the old policies
:02:47. > :02:50.rehearsed and put forward again. The changes, whether in the PLP, the
:02:51. > :02:53.trade unions or elsewhere, things have changed, it's a big change
:02:54. > :02:58.coming to the Labour Party and thank God. I remember arguing with Tony
:02:59. > :03:01.Blair whether we should call it new Labour or old Labour and he wanted
:03:02. > :03:08.to call it new Labour and I said why don't we call it Labour. There is a
:03:09. > :03:12.change in policy, they want fundamental change, they are
:03:13. > :03:15.entitled to have it, he has won two elections, why do we think of the
:03:16. > :03:18.revolutionary thought, he is our leader until the next election, get
:03:19. > :03:22.on for the ride and fight the Tories instead of fighting ourselves. There
:03:23. > :03:27.is one really good answer to that, that is all well and good but you
:03:28. > :03:30.are 26% in the polls, an all-time historic low that is where Corbyn is
:03:31. > :03:39.taking them. All too often we talk about the polls. Terrible
:03:40. > :03:44.inconvenience! Let us go along this road, see how we can do it, the PLP,
:03:45. > :03:48.let's just for the argument is about the election of the Shadow Cabinet.
:03:49. > :03:52.The PLP voted against Shadow Cabinet is only two or three years ago and
:03:53. > :03:57.now it wants them back. Quite right, I support them, I've been party to
:03:58. > :04:01.them. For god sake, can get on with fighting the Tories, back the
:04:02. > :04:06.leadership for the moment? I have to say to Jeremy, talking about splits
:04:07. > :04:17.in part is, we have already wondering, Momentum crazy things,
:04:18. > :04:21.argue the case for change. Electoral College instead of one man, one
:04:22. > :04:26.vote. I've always fought for one man one vote. That would be going
:04:27. > :04:30.backwards, would it not? It would strengthen the PLP. We have to look
:04:31. > :04:36.at all of these fears and do a proper conference as I advocate, but
:04:37. > :04:39.think about it first. We have ?3 members at Miliband came through and
:04:40. > :04:43.whacked that through special conference. We need to think about
:04:44. > :04:48.how we've done things in the past, trade unions, members of Parliament,
:04:49. > :04:52.PLP members, they want change, they are entitled democratically to see
:04:53. > :04:55.if we will listen to them at implement it democratically. Jeremy
:04:56. > :05:01.must show leadership. What does showing leadership mean? There are
:05:02. > :05:05.two things. The election of a Shadow Cabinet if you want to do that.
:05:06. > :05:12.Elected by whom? That could be the PLP to begin with. We can't wait
:05:13. > :05:14.until the conference comes along, 11th of October. These things are
:05:15. > :05:23.constitutional. In the coming elections he is the leader, he could
:05:24. > :05:27.put in people he feels he has to have their in the Shadow Cabinet,
:05:28. > :05:31.because it's all about power distribution, and give the PLP the
:05:32. > :05:34.right to put some people in and then look at the issues of whether other
:05:35. > :05:39.members should be involved. That's the long-term. At the moment a team
:05:40. > :05:44.ready for fighting Theresa May, she will be worse than Thatcher. We are
:05:45. > :05:48.here in the great traditional Labour city, the heartland of traditional
:05:49. > :05:52.Labour support. Does anybody in Liverpool care how the Shadow
:05:53. > :05:56.Cabinet is selected? I doubt meet people just outside this building
:05:57. > :06:01.are talking about that. They will be because they are journalists! I
:06:02. > :06:04.don't even think they will be! In a way we are contradicting ourselves
:06:05. > :06:08.because we are saying we should not spend time talking about it and we
:06:09. > :06:11.are all talking about it. The so-called rebels misjudged this
:06:12. > :06:14.completely in terms of timing, when they all resigned on the Sunday
:06:15. > :06:18.after the referendum, they didn't ask, do we have a candidate? What
:06:19. > :06:22.happens if Jeremy Corbyn doesn't go as a result of this and have they
:06:23. > :06:31.got themes that can unite the rest of the membership, or a new
:06:32. > :06:35.membership could to? We keep talking about the voters. Let's not talk
:06:36. > :06:39.about the Shadow Cabinet because that is an insider conversation.
:06:40. > :06:43.About the voters, we don't know whether Jeremy Corbyn is electable
:06:44. > :06:50.or not. We don't know how he would fare with a united team behind him
:06:51. > :06:55.with over 500,000 members canvassing, campaigning, talking
:06:56. > :06:59.about his policies. We don't know if for this time, in a time when we are
:07:00. > :07:04.dealing with massive inequalities, when we're dealing with rampant...
:07:05. > :07:07.Just, food banks, child poverty and things that should not happen in one
:07:08. > :07:11.of the wealthiest countries in the world. We don't know whether what
:07:12. > :07:15.the Labour Party proposes under Jeremy Corbyn will resonate. We will
:07:16. > :07:17.have a chance to find out. One of the things that is interesting is
:07:18. > :07:22.that clearly the membership of the party has changed dramatically, even
:07:23. > :07:26.in the past 12 months. Will the Parliamentary party change as a
:07:27. > :07:29.result of that? There has been talk of the and reselection. This is what
:07:30. > :07:36.Mr Corbyn had to say this morning. The relationship
:07:37. > :07:39.between an MP and their It's not necessarily
:07:40. > :07:41.all the policy tick It's also the relationships,
:07:42. > :07:44.the community, the effectiveness of representation
:07:45. > :07:45.and all those issues. Let's have a democratic discussion
:07:46. > :07:48.and I think the vast majority of MPs will have
:07:49. > :07:59.no problem whatsoever. Is it's not inevitable, given that
:08:00. > :08:03.you've talked about it yourself, this huge change taking place in the
:08:04. > :08:08.Labour Party membership, that the Parliamentary party will have to
:08:09. > :08:12.change to reflect that? To some extent the PLP is the creation of
:08:13. > :08:16.the previous membership, not the new membership. That is right. Some
:08:17. > :08:19.people were opposing him within weeks when he was elected and
:08:20. > :08:23.pulling out of the cabinet and I don't think they will change. They
:08:24. > :08:26.might want to stay on the backbenches, they don't want to
:08:27. > :08:30.divide the party so they will fight for the party from the backbenches.
:08:31. > :08:34.The greater majority of those in the PLP they didn't want to go on this
:08:35. > :08:37.road of no confidence, that was one when they were kidded into believing
:08:38. > :08:40.that if they had a begin of no confidence he would pick of the
:08:41. > :08:45.revolver and shoot himself. It never was going to happen. So let's say,
:08:46. > :08:53.keep your view, if you don't want to get involved, fine, but now you are
:08:54. > :09:00.required to take account, looking at the policy issues between us rather
:09:01. > :09:04.than fighting ourselves. He has got to show leadership. He is the man in
:09:05. > :09:08.charge of it. That's why the election of the Capanagh has become
:09:09. > :09:13.more important inside the PLP. It's a struggle, isn't it? The PLP
:09:14. > :09:16.produced a whole package of things with electoral reform. Let's get on
:09:17. > :09:21.with that, put it on the side, get a team ready for October the 11th to
:09:22. > :09:24.fight the Tories are using our energy and fighting the Tories and I
:09:25. > :09:29.think the majority of MPs are on board for that. Will Rachel get to
:09:30. > :09:34.see her united Labour Party behind Mr Corbyn going into another
:09:35. > :09:39.election? No. This is it. We have to look at the facts on the table, the
:09:40. > :09:42.Labour Party, the PLP and the people in the country, those people who
:09:43. > :09:46.voted for Owen Smith, they are so far apart ideologically, the hard
:09:47. > :09:51.left and there is the Blairite right and those two will never unite and
:09:52. > :09:54.it's all very well John saying so and I admire your optimism but you
:09:55. > :10:00.and I know it will not happen. It has got to for our people. The party
:10:01. > :10:03.and our country wants it. If your press get onside instead of being so
:10:04. > :10:07.vicious about Corbyn, not just your paper, but most of them have had a
:10:08. > :10:13.kind of hostility that has not been seen before. It has taken ten
:10:14. > :10:22.minutes but eventually we got there. Perhaps we will wait and see. The
:10:23. > :10:26.ideological gap is as big as the 80s, partly because on both sides
:10:27. > :10:30.there is a complete lack of clarity about what they believe in and where
:10:31. > :10:36.they want to go. The early 80s, Roy Jenkins knew exactly what there were
:10:37. > :10:40.four and so did Tony Benn. There is that clarity of vision now. It is
:10:41. > :10:45.all blurred and muddled so there is a problem and an opportunity there.
:10:46. > :10:49.Second, I think the crunch point in this Parliament for Jeremy Corbyn,
:10:50. > :10:56.not now obviously, but if and when the Tories have a crisis over Brexit
:10:57. > :11:01.and if at that point Labour are 25, 20 6% in the polls he will have a
:11:02. > :11:05.crisis. Let me interrupt you because the really big political event
:11:06. > :11:10.yesterday wasn't what was happening here in Liverpool, it happened on
:11:11. > :11:13.BBC One on your TV screens. It was Ed Balls in Strictly. Let's see how
:11:14. > :11:16.that went. Dancing the waltz,
:11:17. > :11:44.Ed Balls and Katya Jones. There we go, glitter balls on
:11:45. > :11:51.strictly. I bet you wish you had been there. I turned it down some
:11:52. > :11:58.time ago. So did I! What was the woman who did it? Edwina. BBC
:11:59. > :12:01.journalists, the public like people like that and supported in many ways
:12:02. > :12:07.but they fall out because they can't dance. That is a drawback. They love
:12:08. > :12:13.them for not dancing, they love the fact they are trying. But they
:12:14. > :12:17.didn't win. I love dancing myself, but frankly you've got to have some
:12:18. > :12:21.movement. There has got to be a flow in the body and the feel of the
:12:22. > :12:28.music. I think you've got it there! You want to do it, I can tell!
:12:29. > :12:34.Doesn't he? He wants to do it. That is not dancing, it's about the
:12:35. > :12:41.movement of the body, the music and the spirit. You should be a judge on
:12:42. > :12:48.the programme. I give it eight! Today talking about Jeremy Corbyn,
:12:49. > :12:55.they love this, it humanises it. You can see a petition to get him on. I
:12:56. > :13:00.can see it happening. We may have to speak to compliance about it!
:13:01. > :13:04.Anyway, it has become a part of the Constitution that you and I have to
:13:05. > :13:09.meet at a Labour conference, so it's good to see you. Two comedians
:13:10. > :13:10.together. One day we might get a proper job!
:13:11. > :13:15.I'll be back next week at the Conservative Party
:13:16. > :13:17.Conference in Birmingham with more Sunday Politics.
:13:18. > :13:19.And I'll be back tomorrow with the Daily Politics at 11am
:13:20. > :13:22.over on BBC Two with more from the Labour Conference
:13:23. > :13:28.We will bring you what is happening in the Labour conference and the
:13:29. > :13:31.Shadow Chancellor's speech too. Remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:32. > :13:36.it's the Sunday Politics.