:00:07. > :00:09.This programme contains some flashing images.
:00:10. > :00:11.We're live from sunny Birmingham on day one of
:00:12. > :00:13.the Conservative Party Conference, where, three months after Britain
:00:14. > :00:16.voted to leave the European Union, the Prime Minister has given
:00:17. > :00:52.us her first inkling of how she plans to do it.
:00:53. > :00:56.Morning, folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:57. > :00:58.Theresa May says she will trigger Article 50, starting the two year
:00:59. > :01:00.process of negotiations that will culminate in Britain
:01:01. > :01:04.leaving the EU, before the end of March next year.
:01:05. > :01:06.So Brexit by Easter 2019 - but what kind of relationship
:01:07. > :01:14.A Great Repeal Bill will also be voted on next Spring,
:01:15. > :01:19.but won't be enacted until we leave, at which point EU laws will be
:01:20. > :01:35.And what do Conservative MPs want to hear from their new leader?
:01:36. > :01:38.We catch up with a Brexiteer and a Remainer as they pack
:01:39. > :01:47.In the capital, if London was defined by the conservatism of the
:01:48. > :01:48.Notting Hill set, what now? We explore the potential rise of Sidcup
:01:49. > :01:52.Man. So far no Great Repeal Act to get
:01:53. > :01:59.rid of the Sunday Politics Panel - Steve Richards, Rachel Sylvester
:02:00. > :02:06.and Tom Newton Dunn. It's 100 days since we voted
:02:07. > :02:09.to leave the EU and the clamour has grown for the Government to tell us
:02:10. > :02:12.what Brexit would look like. This morning, as the Tory faithful
:02:13. > :02:17.gather in Birmingham, we still don't expect to be told
:02:18. > :02:21.what Brexit means but we do know more about the timetable
:02:22. > :02:23.and the extrication process. A Bill will go before parliament
:02:24. > :02:26.this spring to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act,
:02:27. > :02:28.which legalised our membership But it won't actually come
:02:29. > :02:38.into force until we leave. Theresa May also told
:02:39. > :02:40.the Andrew Marr Show that Article 50 would be invoked
:02:41. > :02:43.by March of next year - starting the two year process
:02:44. > :02:53.of renegotiation before we leave. I have been saying we would not
:02:54. > :02:57.trigger it before the end of this year, so that we get confirmation in
:02:58. > :03:01.place. I will be saying in my speech today that we will trigger before
:03:02. > :03:04.the end of March next year. The remaining members of the EU have to
:03:05. > :03:08.decide what the process of negotiation is. I hope, and I will
:03:09. > :03:12.be saying to them, that now they know what the time is going to be,
:03:13. > :03:18.it is not an exact date, but they know it will be the first quarter of
:03:19. > :03:21.next year, that we will be able to have some preparatory work so that
:03:22. > :03:25.once the trigger comes we have a smoother process of negotiation.
:03:26. > :03:30.Theresa May, on this channel, just over an hour ago. What do you make
:03:31. > :03:33.of it? Saggy as you said, we know more about when but we don't know
:03:34. > :03:39.what Brexit is going to be. We don't know how the relationship will work
:03:40. > :03:42.out, we don't know what the Prime Minister's negotiation position will
:03:43. > :03:46.be, we haven't worked out anything about the free market access and
:03:47. > :03:49.freedom of movement. All of the substance. It is a significant
:03:50. > :03:53.announcement but we don't actually know anything really big about what
:03:54. > :03:58.our lives are going to be like in future. Is there a risk from the
:03:59. > :04:04.Prime Minister? Is there a risk putting this before Parliament to
:04:05. > :04:13.repeal the 1972 Communities Act? Undoubtedly. Anything you put before
:04:14. > :04:15.the House of Commons or the House of Lords, where there is no Tory
:04:16. > :04:20.majority, let alone a Brexit majority, risks getting amended. She
:04:21. > :04:24.runs the risk. There is also a risk of not saying this, not having the
:04:25. > :04:33.greater appeal, which is actually a great repeal act, when is being
:04:34. > :04:37.repealed, but she needed to throw the Tory right red meat, and they
:04:38. > :04:43.got it this morning. There is always the potential of a constitutional
:04:44. > :04:48.crisis. If the Lords were to dig in over this, or even digging over
:04:49. > :04:51.Article 50, demand a vote on that, lawyers are arguing whether you need
:04:52. > :04:56.it or not, it may not be plain sailing when you have a majority of
:04:57. > :05:02.12? It definitely isn't going to be with a majority of 12. The scope for
:05:03. > :05:06.constitutional crisis is many. Clashes with the Lords, clashes with
:05:07. > :05:12.the Commons, Scotland is still there in the background allows a
:05:13. > :05:16.significant factor. It will always be there, but perhaps in a different
:05:17. > :05:22.context. I don't think this will be the trigger for a constitutional
:05:23. > :05:26.crisis. You have to admire the elegant choreography. I was told
:05:27. > :05:30.ages ago that she knew she could not keep carry on saying Brexit means
:05:31. > :05:35.Brexit, there will have to be new lines. This is beautiful. We kind of
:05:36. > :05:39.knew that Article 50 was going to be triggered early in next year. David
:05:40. > :05:44.Davis even said that. It was a fair bet it would be before Easter. They
:05:45. > :05:50.couldn't spend the next two years negotiating Brexit and refocusing
:05:51. > :05:53.the entire legislative programme to spend the next two years rejigging
:05:54. > :05:57.the mountain of legislation we are affected with. They have turned a
:05:58. > :06:01.logistical, unavoidable inevitability into a sense of
:06:02. > :06:09.momentum this weekend. Very clever presentation. There are going to be
:06:10. > :06:15.huge crises to come over this. Picking off the 1972 Act, putting it
:06:16. > :06:20.all into British law and legislation, rather than dependent
:06:21. > :06:25.on Europe, that is what the Brexiteers wanted. To that extent,
:06:26. > :06:29.she has thrown them a bit of red meat today? Yes, but we still don't
:06:30. > :06:35.know what Brexit is going to be. But a bit of red meat keeps you going
:06:36. > :06:43.for a while. Maybe get them through to lunch time. Today or tomorrow?
:06:44. > :06:47.Really just today. The tactic is to get some stuff about Brexit out, get
:06:48. > :06:53.them talking about that and then move onto agenda she wants,
:06:54. > :07:01.domestic. What do you think? Good luck with that! Are you reading my
:07:02. > :07:05.script coming up? It was on the autocue, I'm sorry! Clearly, she is
:07:06. > :07:10.accessed about not making his premiership all about Brexit. It
:07:11. > :07:15.will be, but she is desperate. She needs to define herself away from
:07:16. > :07:18.Brexit, who is Theresa May, what did she really believe? We have heard
:07:19. > :07:28.whispers, but the next few days as a chance to do that. The fringe, Liam
:07:29. > :07:32.Fox is talking at two fringes. Two opportunities for a story. David
:07:33. > :07:35.Davis as well. These two men of great talent and potentially great
:07:36. > :07:43.ego, they will not be able to stop themselves having feelings heard.
:07:44. > :07:47.And Boris. Boris who? I have not seen him on the fringes. Fringe
:07:48. > :07:51.meetings have been quite dull at party conferences recently. Because
:07:52. > :07:56.of this issue, I think people are going to pack them out. That is
:07:57. > :07:59.where words might be said, explosive words. We live for fringe meetings!
:08:00. > :08:02.The PM hopes her announcement will deal with Brexit on day one
:08:03. > :08:04.so the conference can get on to talk about other matters.
:08:05. > :08:14.But as you can see from this not so slim tome - the conference guide-
:08:15. > :08:19.there are plenty of other issues to talk, maybe even argue about.
:08:20. > :08:21.Our Ellie caught up with two Tory MPs from different sides
:08:22. > :08:25.of the party before they set off, to see what they think lies in store
:08:26. > :08:34.# Just can't wait to get on the road again
:08:35. > :08:38.# The life I love is making music with my friends
:08:39. > :08:43.# And I can't wait to get on the road again...#
:08:44. > :08:45.Do you actually enjoy going to conference?
:08:46. > :08:49.It's not as much fun as when you're not an MP,
:08:50. > :08:52.because now people want to talk to you and everybody
:08:53. > :08:57.But do you make contacts, do you network?
:08:58. > :09:01.Do think Theresa May gets nervous about conference,
:09:02. > :09:06.I think if you are performing on a big stage, whoever you are,
:09:07. > :09:08.you ought to have a few nerves jangling around.
:09:09. > :09:11.But she's a polished performer, I'm sure she'll know
:09:12. > :09:16.Theresa May will also know she has several contentious issues she needs
:09:17. > :09:20.It is perhaps not surprising, then, that day one of
:09:21. > :09:30.We're pretty well balanced between those of us like myself,
:09:31. > :09:31.representing constituencies with really high levels
:09:32. > :09:33.of research, science and agriculture, who will be very
:09:34. > :09:36.keen, but probably pragmatically understanding that we are not
:09:37. > :09:38.going to hear everything tomorrow, and the rest
:09:39. > :09:42.of the party who are just desperate for information.
:09:43. > :09:46.If they don't think the deal is going in the right way,
:09:47. > :09:48.they will want to say something about it.
:09:49. > :09:50.I think the time frame is pretty clear.
:09:51. > :09:53.We are going to trigger Article 50 at some point relatively
:09:54. > :09:57.That means we will get the negotiations done a good year
:09:58. > :10:00.The rest is going to be important meat on the bones.
:10:01. > :10:03.But, in terms of the core strategy, Theresa May goes into this
:10:04. > :10:06.So, a unified front, albeit perhaps fragile.
:10:07. > :10:10.But then there is the question of grammar schools.
:10:11. > :10:13.Depends whether we hear more about it.
:10:14. > :10:15.You know, the concept in its one-dimensional sense,
:10:16. > :10:20.you can't have a problem with that, can you?
:10:21. > :10:22.Giving parents choice, giving bright children the chance
:10:23. > :10:26.But, for me, for many of us, it has to be a package
:10:27. > :10:28.Our teachers are pretty stressed and overworked
:10:29. > :10:32.I'm not actually sure this is the right time.
:10:33. > :10:35.I would rather see emphasis being put on fairer funding.
:10:36. > :10:37.Constituencies like mine have been underfunded for decades.
:10:38. > :10:39.If you go into politics and government scared
:10:40. > :10:41.of your own shadow, unprepared to do anything bold or brave,
:10:42. > :10:46.I think there is no risk-free option.
:10:47. > :10:48.Of course, people have different views on grammar schools
:10:49. > :10:50.and it is a totemic political issue as well.
:10:51. > :10:54.But I think if you read the green paper, the Prime Minister has set
:10:55. > :10:56.out a very sensible, carefully calibrated approach,
:10:57. > :10:57.not just to grammar schools but the wider
:10:58. > :11:05.The new PM also faces big strategic decisions on expensive projects
:11:06. > :11:07.like airport expansion, an area even her Cabinet
:11:08. > :11:13.With all these big infrastructure projects, HS2, Heathrow,
:11:14. > :11:16.issues around fracking, nuclear as well, I think we have got
:11:17. > :11:18.to take the right decisions for the country, make sure Britain
:11:19. > :11:25.Each one of those is thorny in its own right.
:11:26. > :11:28.But what I think is most important is we look at it very carefully,
:11:29. > :11:32.That is where we all start to see the metal in Theresa,
:11:33. > :11:37.Whilst on the one hand, having a Prime Minister -
:11:38. > :11:40.nobody could have been more delighted than me that we managed
:11:41. > :11:42.to cut the tax credits changes - but having a Prime Minister
:11:43. > :11:44.that sticks to her guns, I'm not for U-turning,
:11:45. > :11:50.How confident are you, going to this conference,
:11:51. > :11:53.that it is all going to be sorted and you are going to be
:11:54. > :11:57.Well, people predicted an economic nosedive after the referendum.
:11:58. > :11:59.People said there would be political chaos.
:12:00. > :12:01.Actually, the economy has proved resilient.
:12:02. > :12:09.I think there is a sense of resolve on all sides of the party
:12:10. > :12:12.on all of these different issues to get behind this Prime Minister
:12:13. > :12:17.Last year, you got into a bit of trouble, being quite vocal
:12:18. > :12:20.Some suggestion you weren't a proper conservative.
:12:21. > :12:23.I think I am absolutely a proper conservative.
:12:24. > :12:27.I think my party needed reminding what conservative was.
:12:28. > :12:29.Our job is to help people who need a leg up.
:12:30. > :12:38.Her opening speech in Downing Street told me she absolutely is.
:12:39. > :12:41.Like all of these things, we will hear more about this week.
:12:42. > :12:52.# And I can't wait to get on the road again. #
:12:53. > :12:54.And we're joined now by the Transport Secretary,
:12:55. > :13:00.who was a leading Leave campaigner, Chris Grayling.
:13:01. > :13:10.Welcome back to the programme. The great repeal act, what exactly does
:13:11. > :13:13.it repeal? It repeal the 1972 European Communities Act. It means
:13:14. > :13:16.the European Court of Justice no longer has sway in the United
:13:17. > :13:21.Kingdom. It means the European Commission and Parliament no longer
:13:22. > :13:26.make laws for us. As of today, in our system, European law is supreme
:13:27. > :13:29.over UK law, and it repeal that. Except what it does is it
:13:30. > :13:33.consolidates all existing European legislation into British law. It
:13:34. > :13:38.would be more accurate to call it the great Consolidation act? Is This
:13:39. > :13:41.is what I argued for during the League campaign. The remaining
:13:42. > :13:46.campaign said you could not do it, it will take years, it will be a
:13:47. > :13:50.disaster. My response then is what it is now, the best way to do it is
:13:51. > :13:56.to consolidate existing legislation, much of which we will want to keep,
:13:57. > :13:59.the environmental measures, the workers' rights measures, what we
:14:00. > :14:03.want to do is to make sure we can get certainty before the event and
:14:04. > :14:07.after the event, for workers, businesses, but what the legal
:14:08. > :14:11.position will be. Over time, we have the freedom, outside the European
:14:12. > :14:14.Union, free from the control of the European Court, to change our legal
:14:15. > :14:19.system in the way that we want. It does mean we would leave the EU with
:14:20. > :14:26.all of this EU law still part of British law. Now, what would you
:14:27. > :14:29.wish to change in the aftermath? There is a whole variety of
:14:30. > :14:33.different things we will be looking at a change. For example, if you
:14:34. > :14:37.want a practical one, it is unlikely that after we have left the European
:14:38. > :14:40.Union we will still be paying child benefits to children that have never
:14:41. > :14:44.even entered the United Kingdom. That is the kind of thing we will be
:14:45. > :14:48.free to change after we have left. What else? Much of it we will want
:14:49. > :14:52.to keep, environmental measures, not all that has been done in the
:14:53. > :14:56.European Union for 40 years has been bad for Britain. How long will it
:14:57. > :15:01.take to pick all of this after we leave? Will be down to the
:15:02. > :15:07.Government to decide... Ten years? 20 years? It will take it as long as
:15:08. > :15:11.we choose. What is right and proper is that on the day after there is a
:15:12. > :15:15.degree of certainty for businesses. It would not be fair for a company
:15:16. > :15:18.to be operating under a set of rules, for there to be a cliff edge
:15:19. > :15:25.where they do not know what is going to happen the day after. Let's make
:15:26. > :15:28.it an evolution, not a revolution. A lot of the things you have to agree
:15:29. > :15:32.to enter negotiations mean it will have to remain law even after we
:15:33. > :15:35.leave? This clearly the case that if a business in this country is
:15:36. > :15:38.continuing to sell a product in the European Union, it will have to make
:15:39. > :15:43.the standards of the European Union. Those rules will apply. That is the
:15:44. > :15:46.same if we're selling to the United States, the rules of the United
:15:47. > :15:54.States would apply to a business planning to sell a product there.
:15:55. > :15:57.What happens if you lose the vote? It is inconceivable that Parliament
:15:58. > :16:02.can look at the view of the British public and ignore it. Parliament
:16:03. > :16:04.voted overwhelmingly for the referendum to take place in the
:16:05. > :16:06.first place, the people have given a mandate and I am certain Parliament
:16:07. > :16:16.will fulfil it. What would happen? You have a
:16:17. > :16:22.majority of only 12 and there was a majority for remain in the Commons
:16:23. > :16:27.and there is a large majority in the house of lords. If the parliament
:16:28. > :16:32.does not seamlessly agree for what you call the great repeal act, what
:16:33. > :16:40.would happen? Both houses are full of Democrats and they will respect
:16:41. > :16:46.the will of the people. But we could be faced with a constitutional
:16:47. > :16:50.crisis? We have taken the decision to leave and parliament voted for
:16:51. > :16:54.the referendum and it is inconceivable that Parliament would
:16:55. > :17:04.not allow that process to go forward. If the inconceivable
:17:05. > :17:10.happen, you'd have to cores and -- call an election. Inconceivable is a
:17:11. > :17:20.bit of a stretch. Plenty of voices, particularly in the House of Lords,
:17:21. > :17:26.would use this as a an opportunity to thwart you. And I don't think the
:17:27. > :17:30.House of Lords will turn around and say we should not fulfil that. There
:17:31. > :17:35.may be dissenting voices but they will view it as a democratic mandate
:17:36. > :17:40.that we have to fulfil. Has your party don soundings in the Commons
:17:41. > :17:45.to make sure you can get this through? I've not been involved in
:17:46. > :17:50.that discussion but parliament will respond to the will of the people.
:17:51. > :17:58.That's the way this country works. That's what you hope. We shall see
:17:59. > :18:01.how it works. We've been told by the Prime Minister this morning that
:18:02. > :18:08.article 50 will be triggered by the end of March. That means that we are
:18:09. > :18:12.out by Easter 2019. Can you confirm that those British members of the
:18:13. > :18:20.European Parliament currently in Strasberg, there will be no more for
:18:21. > :18:25.them after this. If we have left by the end of the two-year period. It
:18:26. > :18:28.is technically possible to extend it. After that period, there
:18:29. > :18:49.wouldn't be EP is after that point in 2019. -- MEPs. For Brexit to mean
:18:50. > :18:52.Brexit, the famous phrase, which is basically tautology. It would mean
:18:53. > :19:01.the freedom to have our own trade laws. It would mean the ability to
:19:02. > :19:09.do that? You are leading me to answer questions about the specific
:19:10. > :19:18.legal structures. It means our own free-trade deals? Correct. It would
:19:19. > :19:29.mean we are no longer subject to the rules of the European Court of
:19:30. > :19:33.Justice. Also correct. And we would have whatever control we desire over
:19:34. > :19:36.immigration? The Prime Minister has been clear that we need to control
:19:37. > :19:42.the flow of immigration into the country. Any of these counts as out
:19:43. > :19:49.from being a member of the single market. So can we agree that there
:19:50. > :19:53.is no way we can remain a member of the single market? There is no such
:19:54. > :19:56.thing as a member of the single market. There are a number of
:19:57. > :20:02.different trading agreements within the EU. We are effectively a member
:20:03. > :20:10.of the single market now but we can't be after this. The question
:20:11. > :20:14.you have asked me, do we want to be Norway, Switzerland, Canada when it
:20:15. > :20:18.comes to trading arrangements? We want to be the United Kingdom. We
:20:19. > :20:25.are the biggest customer of German car-makers, French farmers... I
:20:26. > :20:31.don't want to have the referendum fight again. It seems as black as
:20:32. > :20:36.black or as White is white that if you want all of that we cannot be a
:20:37. > :20:41.member, we can have access on terms yet to be agreed, we will have a
:20:42. > :20:45.relationship, but why cannot you say that we won't be a member in the way
:20:46. > :20:51.that we are currently a member of the single market? We won't be a
:20:52. > :20:57.member of the European Union but there is no such thing as a member
:20:58. > :21:03.of the single market. There is no single market in services, for
:21:04. > :21:07.example. There is but it is not as developed as goods. I believe we
:21:08. > :21:10.will end up with a trading partnership with the European Union
:21:11. > :21:17.on terms to be agreed that will work for both of us. Access but not
:21:18. > :21:21.membership. You cannot be a fully paid-up member of the single market
:21:22. > :21:25.without the European Court of Justice ruling on it and you don't
:21:26. > :21:34.want that. I don't understand your problem. Your pre-merging --
:21:35. > :21:38.prejudging the outcome of negotiations. We want the best
:21:39. > :21:41.possible trading arrangements with European neighbours and that is what
:21:42. > :21:47.we will work towards. Where different to the other countries
:21:48. > :21:51.that have been involved in these negotiations before. We have heard
:21:52. > :21:55.all that before in the referendum and we wanted some clarity on what
:21:56. > :22:01.it would mean. Transport, when will you give is the decision on runway
:22:02. > :22:05.expansion? I'm not going to set a date today. I've spent the summer
:22:06. > :22:09.looking at the three different options. We have three very well
:22:10. > :22:12.presented packages. The airport commission has looked at it
:22:13. > :22:16.carefully and the Prime Minister and I want to understand the options in
:22:17. > :22:22.detail and understand the strengths and weaknesses of each and we will
:22:23. > :22:30.reach our decision shortly. I'm not going to set a date on it. Shortly
:22:31. > :22:34.means in this year, surely. I don't want to wait unnecessarily long to
:22:35. > :22:42.take the decision but nor do I want to set a date so to to work towards
:22:43. > :22:46.that. Will there be a free vote? I need to identify the best option for
:22:47. > :22:51.Britain and take the best possible approach to get the support of
:22:52. > :22:59.parliament Porritt. Will there be a free vote? Decisions have not been
:23:00. > :23:07.taken but we will do the best for the interests of the country.
:23:08. > :23:15.Theresa May has said the options for an expansion to Heathrow are
:23:16. > :23:19.seriously flawed. Philip Hammond has described the Heathrow option as
:23:20. > :23:22.dead as a Norwegian parrot. Can you be sure that the Prime Minister and
:23:23. > :23:28.Anna Chancellor will vote for your proposal? We are looking at three
:23:29. > :23:38.options that are very new. One of them is Heathrow. Warrant -- they
:23:39. > :23:43.are very different options to what has been proposed in the past. They
:23:44. > :23:48.are all very well crafted proposals. They are interesting and have
:23:49. > :23:56.potential and we need to decide. That is why I am asking you. HS2,
:23:57. > :24:01.high-speed train, can you state categorically it will go ahead? It's
:24:02. > :24:05.due to start construction in the spring. The hybrids Bill Haas to
:24:06. > :24:15.continue its passage through the house of law -- the hybrid Bill Haas
:24:16. > :24:29.to continue through its passage in the house of lords. Will it be 2026?
:24:30. > :24:34.Will it be on-time and on budget? The select committee of MPs said it
:24:35. > :24:47.is unlikely and will certainly be over budget. I expected be
:24:48. > :24:52.absolutely clear and on -- expected to be absolutely on-time and on
:24:53. > :24:57.budget. The latest estimate for phase one, the core cast is ?14
:24:58. > :25:06.billion but there is contingency on top of that. How much? It is set to
:25:07. > :25:12.Treasury rules. It is always going to be over. If you really believed
:25:13. > :25:20.in the Northern powerhouse wouldn't this money be better spent instead
:25:21. > :25:25.of making it quicker to come to and Birmingham from London in under 90
:25:26. > :25:30.minutes, which you already can, wouldn't it be better to spend the
:25:31. > :25:46.money on state of the art road links between East and West in the north.
:25:47. > :25:52.I think we need to do both. We can't get more freight onto rail without
:25:53. > :25:58.creating more space. By taking fast trains off the West Coast main line
:25:59. > :26:04.which is already busy and put fast freight trains onto the new route,
:26:05. > :26:07.you create more capacity for places like Milton Keynes Dons Northampton,
:26:08. > :26:13.Coventry. It is about making sure we have a transport system that can
:26:14. > :26:16.cope with the demands of the 21st-century. Thank you very much.
:26:17. > :26:20.Now, as we speak, voters in Hungary are going to the polls to vote
:26:21. > :26:22.on whether to accept mandatory EU quotas for relocating migrants.
:26:23. > :26:25.The country's government has been campaigning for voters to reject
:26:26. > :26:27.the EU's proposals and has run a highly controversial campaign,
:26:28. > :26:30.accusing migrants of terrorism and crime - and the Prime Minister
:26:31. > :26:32.Viktor Orban has said today he'll quit if the country votes
:26:33. > :26:37.In response to the ongoing migrant crisis, the EU wants to establish
:26:38. > :26:39.a permanent European resettlement programme, under which,
:26:40. > :26:41.member states must take their fair share of asylum seekers,
:26:42. > :26:45.depending on the size of each country's population and economy.
:26:46. > :26:47.If countries refuse, the European Commission has proposed
:26:48. > :26:52.that they would incur a financial penalty of 250,000 euros per person,
:26:53. > :26:57.to cover the cost of another country taking them.
:26:58. > :26:59.Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Szijjarto said the plan
:27:00. > :27:04.Last year, Hungary rejected an emergency EU plan that would have
:27:05. > :27:08.seen tens of thousands of refugees transferred out of the country
:27:09. > :27:11.in return for accepting a quota of almost 1300 refugees
:27:12. > :27:17.As an EU border country, Hungary has received 18,500
:27:18. > :27:24.In 2015, it received the most asylum applications relative
:27:25. > :27:29.to its population of any EU state - 1800 for every 100,000 local people,
:27:30. > :27:32.though the majority of those then travelled onwards to other
:27:33. > :27:39.Although the referendum result will have no affect
:27:40. > :27:41.on the EU's decision, the Hungarian government hopes
:27:42. > :27:44.the weight of public opinion will help it resist the plans,
:27:45. > :27:47.running a very controversial referendum campaign.
:27:48. > :27:49.For example, this poster saying migrants carried out
:27:50. > :27:57.We're joined now from Budapest by our Correspondent, Nick Thorpe.
:27:58. > :28:05.I understand that the polls are pretty clear that the government
:28:06. > :28:10.will win this referendum but it needs a turnout of at least 50% for
:28:11. > :28:21.it to matter. What indication of turnout so far? As of 11am, turnout
:28:22. > :28:26.was just over 16% of the electorate. We have an electrode of 8.3 million,
:28:27. > :28:32.the government is campaigning strongly for a no vote. The
:28:33. > :28:38.government have framed the question in such a way that it is hard to
:28:39. > :28:50.vote, yes, we do want this imposed on us. The issue of turnout is
:28:51. > :28:58.important because the opposition have campaigned not to vote or to
:28:59. > :29:03.spoil votes. Even if the government wins on the numbers, if more people
:29:04. > :29:09.vote against the quotas, is it a symbolic defeat for the government
:29:10. > :29:16.if that was to happen? Some people will argue it would be a symbolic
:29:17. > :29:21.defeat if they don't get 50%. We've heard that ministers are backing off
:29:22. > :29:28.the whole issue of turnout. They are hoping for at least 3 million people
:29:29. > :29:34.to vote. Even 4 million which would be the 50%, voting no to migrant
:29:35. > :29:39.quotas. They say that all of those votes will give them a strong moral
:29:40. > :29:42.hand. In the words of the Prime Minister, it will sharpen the
:29:43. > :29:47.Hungarian sword in the battles ahead. Thank you very much.
:29:48. > :29:50.Malin Bjork is Swedish MEP and Vice Chair of
:29:51. > :29:52.the Confederal Group of the European United Left
:29:53. > :30:07.Welcome to the programme. The quota system proposed already seem to be
:30:08. > :30:12.dying if the Hungarians vote the way they are expected to today, that
:30:13. > :30:19.will kill it, will it not? I think we should have it as a point of
:30:20. > :30:25.departure whether we have seen that Hungary is a model in any of the
:30:26. > :30:31.fields that we want hungry -- Europe to be. I don't think Hungary is the
:30:32. > :30:36.model. I don't think we should give him the kind of weight that he
:30:37. > :30:38.actually claims. He wants more weight to this referendum. I don't
:30:39. > :30:50.think we should give it to him. It is not just Hungary, is it? There
:30:51. > :30:54.are meant to be 100,000 migrants covered by the quota system, fewer
:30:55. > :31:00.than 5% have been covered by it. It is just not happening, whether
:31:01. > :31:04.Hungary votes for or against? No, it is totally... But that means it is
:31:05. > :31:07.not operational, it is simply not working. There are serious
:31:08. > :31:11.criticisms to have towards implementing partners in this. But I
:31:12. > :31:16.do think when it comes to the political course, Hungary is playing
:31:17. > :31:21.a very dangerous, racist and right nationalist game. I don't think we
:31:22. > :31:26.should adapt to it. If it comes to it, we have to be prepared to be
:31:27. > :31:29.behind those that do not want to be the Europe that is taking
:31:30. > :31:34.responsibility globally. Let me clarify what you mean by that. The
:31:35. > :31:38.Foreign Minister of Luxembourg has already said that Hungary should be
:31:39. > :31:45.expelled from the European Union. Is that what you are saying as well?
:31:46. > :31:49.No, no. You know what I think? As a progressive politician on the left
:31:50. > :31:54.side, I do have a lot of criticisms to the European Union. But there are
:31:55. > :32:00.planets apart from the kind of models that Viktor Orban is trying
:32:01. > :32:04.to build, where he does not respect human rights, laws and media
:32:05. > :32:09.freedoms, and now he attacks refugee rights. Given all of that, let's
:32:10. > :32:14.accept what you say is true about that, others may dispute it, but
:32:15. > :32:18.let's accept that as true, why should Hungary remain a member of
:32:19. > :32:22.the European Union? Well, it is up to each country that has voted to
:32:23. > :32:29.stay, and voted to become members, voting to stay, I don't think Orban
:32:30. > :32:32.has any intention of leaving EU. I think he wants more influence in the
:32:33. > :32:35.EU. I think he wants more influence domestic league through the
:32:36. > :32:38.referendum and more influence in the EU. The question the rest of the
:32:39. > :32:43.countries have to ask themselves is if we are going to give it to him or
:32:44. > :32:46.adapt to his politics in any of these fields he is active in? I
:32:47. > :32:50.think we should make a stand against it. We should have political forces
:32:51. > :32:56.in other countries that have exactly the same kind of agendas, which we
:32:57. > :33:00.don't want to see strengthened. Isn't the problem that may be
:33:01. > :33:05.Hungary is on the trend, and you are not? We have seem the right, some
:33:06. > :33:10.may call it the far right even, on the march in Austria, Poland and in
:33:11. > :33:15.Hungary, even in Germany, with the recent elections in Berlin and
:33:16. > :33:17.Angela Merkel's backyard, even progressive social Democratic
:33:18. > :33:26.Sweden, your third biggest party is now the Sweden, Democrats, a hard
:33:27. > :33:31.right nativist party. Why are forces on the move, and while the forces
:33:32. > :33:35.used and four on the defensive? The more progressive forces, I think
:33:36. > :33:39.they are growing in many countries also, such as Spain, Ireland and
:33:40. > :33:43.other countries. It is not just for the left, it is for the broader
:33:44. > :33:47.political spectrum to counteract nationalist, right-wing and racist
:33:48. > :33:52.forces. We know where they lead, a dead end. It is a challenge in the
:33:53. > :33:56.European countries. Why is Europe going in this direction? In 2016,
:33:57. > :34:06.why are the forces of the rights so strong? To be honest, I think we
:34:07. > :34:10.have to be a little bit more humble and say are we failing people in
:34:11. > :34:15.some way? Yes, austerity policies are not working. Inequalities have
:34:16. > :34:20.grown for over 20 years in Europe. Of course it is a failure. We are
:34:21. > :34:24.capable of saving banks, but not refugees. People see this. It is
:34:25. > :34:27.political failure and I think we have to sit down and create
:34:28. > :34:31.different pacifists. What is happening now is worrying. I see
:34:32. > :34:36.some of the political forces in Europe. -- create different
:34:37. > :34:45.patterns. I see parties in Europe adapting to racism nationalist
:34:46. > :34:48.voices. I think we have to be the different parties that will not
:34:49. > :34:55.adapt to nationalist stories. They paint imaginary enemies. A huge
:34:56. > :35:00.chunk of Hungary's public spending comes from the European Union, net
:35:01. > :35:04.contributors like Sweden and the United Kingdom. If Hungary votes
:35:05. > :35:11.this way, should that continue? Should we continue to bankroll it?
:35:12. > :35:14.The way Europe and the European Union, individual members develop,
:35:15. > :35:20.of course we should lead discussions about money and heel spending to the
:35:21. > :35:26.respect for rule of law, the respect for human rights and the respect for
:35:27. > :35:29.international rights that are being infringed by the Hungarian
:35:30. > :35:31.government. Of course, we have to have such a discussion and it has to
:35:32. > :35:34.be frank. It's just gone 11.35,
:35:35. > :35:36.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:35:37. > :35:39.in Scotland who leave us now I think he is going to do
:35:40. > :58:47.a much better job than And we're joined now by the former
:58:48. > :59:07.Work and Pensions Secretary and Leave campaigner,
:59:08. > :59:24.Iain Duncan Smith. it you said we could be out of the
:59:25. > :59:29.European Union by 2018? My senses if you keep their process as simple as
:59:30. > :59:32.possible and don't try to get special pleading and try to be a
:59:33. > :59:37.member of the single market which they are not going to grant you, if
:59:38. > :59:43.you go for a clear and simple position on trade and find an
:59:44. > :59:51.agreement then the more complex issues then disappear. Theresa May
:59:52. > :59:58.has said that when she brings the act forward to repeal the 1972 act,
:59:59. > :00:03.at the same time you binding the European Law and you speed the
:00:04. > :00:07.process up. Keeping it simple, keeping up pace is what we
:00:08. > :00:12.recommended. It allows you to get the end point quicker.
:00:13. > :00:18.You talk about member of the single market, Chris Grayling told me there
:00:19. > :00:25.was no such thing, which slightly puzzled me. You clearly think that
:00:26. > :00:28.there is. What you want, as I understand it, is a free-trade
:00:29. > :00:33.agreement with the European Union. That could not be done by 2018? We
:00:34. > :00:35.want free trade. There are two approaches to getting free trade
:00:36. > :00:42.with the European Union. The first is that you say, OK, in this
:00:43. > :00:47.process, if we sympathise and ask ourselves, if we now have a new
:00:48. > :00:53.relationship, we have left, we want capital goods, we want to access
:00:54. > :00:56.each other's markets, it benefits you more than us, but we are happy
:00:57. > :01:00.not to have tariff barriers on your trade, we have an agreement of no
:01:01. > :01:06.tariff barriers. Financial services are outside, a separate issue, more
:01:07. > :01:09.of a regulatory issue. That is also approaching a deal on equivalence
:01:10. > :01:14.that we could accelerate. The point I am saying is if you do not go down
:01:15. > :01:17.the road trying to nominate individual bits and pieces and say
:01:18. > :01:21.it is a good agreement for us both, you could reach that by agreement.
:01:22. > :01:27.If you don't and you can't, you could fall back on the WTO
:01:28. > :01:29.arrangements and say, well, later on, we will continue that
:01:30. > :01:35.negotiation discussion to decide whether or not we want a free-trade
:01:36. > :01:39.position. If you fall back on that, what you say to the boss of Nissan,
:01:40. > :01:45.who says he will not invest again in this unless the government back row
:01:46. > :01:49.compensates him, he faces tariffs? The answer to that is that first of
:01:50. > :01:53.all I did not believe we will end up in a situation where it is, in any
:01:54. > :01:58.way, a financial benefit for the European Union to want to impose any
:01:59. > :02:04.kind tariff. Right now you are 12% better off anyway. The level of the
:02:05. > :02:08.pound has made it 12% more competitive with European partners,
:02:09. > :02:13.even if you slapped on 10% tariff. It goes up and down, but you asking
:02:14. > :02:17.him to take investment decisions, multi-billion pound decisions, head
:02:18. > :02:27.of Jaguar, saying roughly the same thing, at a time of real
:02:28. > :02:31.uncertainty. Until it is resolved, investment in Britain will slow
:02:32. > :02:34.down, if not dry up? They invest because this is a darn good place to
:02:35. > :02:37.sell your businesses. You heard from the head of the publishing sector in
:02:38. > :02:41.Germany, he said Britain in five years' time will be much more
:02:42. > :02:49.profitable than anywhere else and will be the boom place. Outside the
:02:50. > :02:52.European Union it will be more flexible to set out arrangements. I
:02:53. > :02:57.am with him on this. I was in business before I came into
:02:58. > :03:01.politics. Nobody knows what the future holds for anything. For car
:03:02. > :03:05.makers and others that want to build stuff, they are here because they
:03:06. > :03:11.want a flexible workforce, much lower levels of cost, and a much
:03:12. > :03:15.better contract law base. 85% of Nissan's output goes to the single
:03:16. > :03:21.market. That is right, they also sell here. 15%? You are not suddenly
:03:22. > :03:25.going to meet a massive tariff wall, a closet is not in the interests of
:03:26. > :03:29.the European Union to set up a massive tariffs. Guess who sells
:03:30. > :03:33.more to us than we do to them? The European Union. The Germans
:03:34. > :03:37.themselves are behind-the-scenes talking to us. We had a lot of that
:03:38. > :03:42.during the referendum. Let me move onto some other things. Damian Green
:03:43. > :03:46.is now running your old department. He is scrapping repeated tests for
:03:47. > :03:53.the seriously disabled, people that you know are not going to be able to
:03:54. > :03:58.improve. Why didn't you do that? We wanted to change this, it was a
:03:59. > :04:01.programme given to us by the last Labour government, we did quite a
:04:02. > :04:05.lot to improve it. The big problem, the programme as it exists at the
:04:06. > :04:08.moment, it does not deal with health conditions, it deals with ability to
:04:09. > :04:12.work. That is the problem. If you want to scrap it for people with
:04:13. > :04:15.health conditions, you have to change the criteria by which they
:04:16. > :04:28.are being assessed. That has always been the issue. For disability
:04:29. > :04:30.payments, it is a different matter. They are assessed on their
:04:31. > :04:32.condition. The problem for that... He will stop the assessments of
:04:33. > :04:35.people that are seriously disabled, why didn't you do that? This is not
:04:36. > :04:36.seriously disabled, it is people that suffer from sickness
:04:37. > :04:41.conditions, not necessarily full-time disability. There are two
:04:42. > :04:44.elements. When I was in Government, we have always set out a process
:04:45. > :04:50.that said we needed to change the way the sickness benefit system was
:04:51. > :04:53.assessed. That was so you could rule out conditions, some progressive,
:04:54. > :04:58.some absolute, on a medical basis, on the approval of the Health
:04:59. > :05:01.Service, so they would say this is a condition that will change, it will
:05:02. > :05:05.mean they cannot work now but they might be able to work for a bit. You
:05:06. > :05:10.put it into a box marked medical conditions. That was already on the
:05:11. > :05:16.box. He has just done that, to acclaim. Why didn't you do it, if it
:05:17. > :05:19.is that simple? We needed to get agreement in Government and we have
:05:20. > :05:25.not reached the Provo ease approval. It is a wider plan. This could have
:05:26. > :05:32.been incremented on its own? But you have to change the way you do it. I
:05:33. > :05:35.was in favour of a bigger plan that brought in changes all into one,
:05:36. > :05:39.because they are competing with each other and do not have the kind of
:05:40. > :05:43.effect that you want. It is the right thing to do. Until now, there
:05:44. > :05:46.have not been a huge number of assessments taking place because the
:05:47. > :05:53.system has not been able to cover it. There is a lot of talk about
:05:54. > :05:57.trying to reposition the Tory party on the centre ground, even the
:05:58. > :06:04.centre-left, talking about worker's rights and so on. It is not credible
:06:05. > :06:07.until she does something. 6 million people earn less than the Living
:06:08. > :06:10.Wage, after six years of Conservative government. 6 million
:06:11. > :06:15.people earn less than the Living Wage. That is the reality, not Tory
:06:16. > :06:25.erect a wreck that we are hearing in the hall. -- that is the Tory
:06:26. > :06:31.rhetoric. Raising the minimum wage was making sure that you identify
:06:32. > :06:36.that and raise the blood. There are still 6 million below. The mantra of
:06:37. > :06:44.this government was to make work pay. 50% of families in poverty have
:06:45. > :06:49.at least one family member working. They are still in poverty, waiting,
:06:50. > :06:55.doing difficult and unpleasant jobs, long hours, they are still in
:06:56. > :07:02.poverty. Many people in this country work and still it is the equivalent
:07:03. > :07:06.of poverty. That does not pay, work does not pay for them. Huge problems
:07:07. > :07:15.down the low skill level of work. This is the one area, the level of
:07:16. > :07:21.skills at that point is arguably some of the lowest in the Western
:07:22. > :07:24.world. Companies too often do not invest in skills because of the
:07:25. > :07:28.nature of the tax credit system, you have them in packets of 16 hours, it
:07:29. > :07:32.is not worth investing. Universal Credit will change all of that quite
:07:33. > :07:37.dramatically. It allows people to work more of the hours, invest more
:07:38. > :07:40.in them. The second aspect is back to the migration issue. That has had
:07:41. > :07:46.a very damaging effect on low workers. There are two elements of
:07:47. > :07:49.this. It is not just the statutory migration, it is that what happened
:07:50. > :07:56.is that a lot of people come for under one year. They do part-time
:07:57. > :08:00.work, they claim full benefits, Migration Watch proved it is over 4
:08:01. > :08:05.billion per year. That allows them to go and do cash in hand work. It
:08:06. > :08:09.is a big problem, it has only now become clear how damaging that has
:08:10. > :08:14.become to British people working at low income level. What does this
:08:15. > :08:19.party, if it is this self-styled Workers Party, what does it have to
:08:20. > :08:23.do in a country where 6 million people get less than the Living
:08:24. > :08:27.Wage, 50% of people in poverty are already in work and poverty levels
:08:28. > :08:39.among those in work are at record levels. So much for the worker's
:08:40. > :08:43.party? The answer is it has to do a lot, we have been talking about
:08:44. > :08:48.Brexit a lot, Theresa May has dropped a lot of hints about what
:08:49. > :08:53.she wants to do. The announcement yesterday morning about this massive
:08:54. > :08:58.review, led by a Blairite, Matthew Taylor, to completely re-examine
:08:59. > :09:05.employment rights. Thereby meaning, for the low paid and the casual
:09:06. > :09:12.workers, holiday pay for Uber drivers, it opens a massive area of
:09:13. > :09:23.things, grammar schools... You need high-quality technology schools to
:09:24. > :09:28.up-skill its? She has all of this on her agenda, possibly more
:09:29. > :09:33.interesting than even Brexit. I was planning not to mention Brexit in
:09:34. > :09:37.this segment, but I think I did. There was a lot of flesh to be put
:09:38. > :09:44.on his bones before it is convincing? Theresa May is playing a
:09:45. > :09:48.political game of trying to dump the nasty party image, become a more
:09:49. > :09:54.compassionate conservative. She is changing from the David Cameron era,
:09:55. > :09:59.instead of being the bottom 10% or 15% of people that he was focusing
:10:00. > :10:04.on, as well as the wealthier elite, she is looking at the people earning
:10:05. > :10:09.more than ?16,000, up to ?21,000, those who have children that are not
:10:10. > :10:14.on free school meals, not the most deprived, she calls them the just
:10:15. > :10:17.managing classes, they might have one for holiday each year, they
:10:18. > :10:21.might want to send their kids to piano lessons or the local Football
:10:22. > :10:26.Club, they are not the poorest people on welfare. That could have
:10:27. > :10:29.an impact on what you're saying, it could also undermine her reputation
:10:30. > :10:34.for being compassionate if she is seen to be abandoning the people
:10:35. > :10:37.that need help most. There is always a political case for doing something
:10:38. > :10:41.for Middle Britain, where most people are. They call at Middle
:10:42. > :10:48.America over there and so on. But these are not the in work but in
:10:49. > :10:52.poverty. Being a worker's party, one that dines out on its support for
:10:53. > :10:57.work, if it is to do anything, it has to do something about these
:10:58. > :11:03.people? The key issue is what the economic policies are in this new
:11:04. > :11:06.government. Nobody on the programme this morning has talked about the
:11:07. > :11:15.deficit, which George Osborne framed everything around, to the point
:11:16. > :11:18.where, as they know better than anyone, he struggles to get welfare
:11:19. > :11:23.reforms affected because of our budget cuts that hit those on low
:11:24. > :11:28.income in work. Until we know the degree to which the framing of that
:11:29. > :11:32.deficit strategy has changed, we will not really know the space they
:11:33. > :11:36.will have to make sure that does not happen over the next few years and
:11:37. > :11:41.the opposite happens. That applies to all of these issues, actually.
:11:42. > :11:48.The economy will provide the space, or not, to do these things. The
:11:49. > :11:52.Treasury is telling the Chancellor that the slowdown in the economy,
:11:53. > :11:56.not as slow as they thought, but still a slowdown, that, in itself,
:11:57. > :12:01.will widen the deficit. Therefore, he is not going to have a tonne of
:12:02. > :12:04.money to throw around on top of that, which would widen the deficit
:12:05. > :12:10.even further. There is room for manoeuvre which may be quite slight?
:12:11. > :12:15.Not quite true. He has abandoned George Osborne's fiscal targets.
:12:16. > :12:18.Having already taken this into account by what they think is the
:12:19. > :12:21.slowing of the economy. They have been wrong in the past, but that is
:12:22. > :12:26.why they have done that. There is not a turn of money around to spend
:12:27. > :12:31.billions on infrastructure, unless, of course, like Mr Corbyn, you want
:12:32. > :12:36.to borrow it. When you say you are not going to eradicate the deficit
:12:37. > :12:40.by 2020, that is what you mean. If he needs to cushion the Brexit
:12:41. > :12:44.impact, if there is one, I don't think we could pay off the deficit
:12:45. > :12:50.by 2020. Then you'll have all of this money to do what you want with.
:12:51. > :12:53.Final thought? There is also the attitude about business and the
:12:54. > :12:57.attitude to the super rich and well. I think Theresa May will concentrate
:12:58. > :13:00.on that more than David Cameron, alleviating concerns. The Autumn
:13:01. > :13:05.Statement from the Chancellor will be as big as any of the statements
:13:06. > :13:07.we hear this week. I am glad to hear it, it will be coming up live on a
:13:08. > :13:10.Daily Politics special. at the Conservative Party
:13:11. > :13:13.conference here in Birmingham. Fear not, I'll be back tomorrow
:13:14. > :13:16.at 11am for a two-hour special as Chancellor Philip Hammond
:13:17. > :13:23.takes to the stage. We are back on Tuesday and Wednesday
:13:24. > :13:27.bringing Theresa May's speech on Wednesday just before lunch. We will
:13:28. > :13:29.be back next Sunday as well. In the meantime, remember -
:13:30. > :13:32.if it's Sunday, it's