:00:38. > :00:41.Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving
:00:45. > :00:49.the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?
:00:50. > :00:51.Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime
:00:52. > :01:04.The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending
:01:05. > :01:10.on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be
:01:11. > :01:15.Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.
:01:16. > :01:17.Now the second UKIP leadership election this year
:01:18. > :01:20.So who can restore order to this fractious party?
:01:21. > :01:30.in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or
:01:31. > :01:39.is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?
:01:40. > :01:42.And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing
:01:43. > :01:46.the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative,
:01:47. > :01:48.dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:49. > :01:52.and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:53. > :01:57.First this morning - Theresa May has said
:01:58. > :02:00."Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -
:02:01. > :02:02.who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum
:02:03. > :02:10.Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching
:02:11. > :02:18.the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet
:02:19. > :02:27.Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to
:02:28. > :02:33.deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,
:02:34. > :02:37.100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to
:02:38. > :02:40.making a success of Brexit for the country.
:02:41. > :02:44.We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then,
:02:45. > :02:51.have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity
:02:52. > :02:55.coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we
:02:56. > :02:58.face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind
:02:59. > :03:05.when you talk about negativity - the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,
:03:06. > :03:12.for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving
:03:13. > :03:17.membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what
:03:18. > :03:20.we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat
:03:21. > :03:25.negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and
:03:26. > :03:29.the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:30. > :03:33.both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position
:03:34. > :03:38.clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to
:03:39. > :03:45.review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what
:03:46. > :03:47.you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:48. > :03:52.membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure
:03:53. > :03:56.British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new
:03:57. > :04:04.trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at
:04:05. > :04:07.Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house
:04:08. > :04:13.this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.
:04:14. > :04:16.And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on
:04:17. > :04:21.what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union
:04:22. > :04:26.at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs
:04:27. > :04:29.union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and
:04:30. > :04:34.other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are
:04:35. > :04:44.preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing
:04:45. > :04:47.carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we
:04:48. > :04:53.have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do
:04:54. > :04:57.you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is
:04:58. > :05:01.not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the
:05:02. > :05:05.moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we
:05:06. > :05:09.cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement
:05:10. > :05:15.with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.
:05:16. > :05:19.Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We
:05:20. > :05:23.still want to trade with the EU, and I think we can have a free trade
:05:24. > :05:30.agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do
:05:31. > :05:34.with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave
:05:35. > :05:39.the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the
:05:40. > :05:42.most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime
:05:43. > :05:47.Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be
:05:48. > :05:55.right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have
:05:56. > :06:00.a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a
:06:01. > :06:03.binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the
:06:04. > :06:10.Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I
:06:11. > :06:18.am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had
:06:19. > :06:23.said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the
:06:24. > :06:27.constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not
:06:28. > :06:30.securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,
:06:31. > :06:35.we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that
:06:36. > :06:40.if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade
:06:41. > :06:56.deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do
:06:57. > :07:00.you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with
:07:01. > :07:03.substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access
:07:04. > :07:07.to the single market, that goods going from this country to the
:07:08. > :07:12.single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject
:07:13. > :07:20.to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost
:07:21. > :07:24.business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement
:07:25. > :07:28.between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,
:07:29. > :07:33.but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on
:07:34. > :07:38.our own tariffs once we've left, we can't just export again willy-nilly
:07:39. > :07:41.to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do
:07:42. > :07:47.that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we
:07:48. > :07:51.agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,
:07:52. > :07:57.we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which
:07:58. > :08:01.sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our
:08:02. > :08:06.industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU
:08:07. > :08:10.but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European
:08:11. > :08:19.Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a 0%
:08:20. > :08:23.tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and
:08:24. > :08:28.goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of
:08:29. > :08:35.the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.
:08:36. > :08:39.Every bottle of Japanese whisky, they will have to work out the rules
:08:40. > :08:45.of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for
:08:46. > :08:50.50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of
:08:51. > :08:51.free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view.
:08:52. > :09:00.Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could
:09:01. > :09:05.not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is
:09:06. > :09:10.messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a
:09:11. > :09:16.campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is
:09:17. > :09:21.this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other
:09:22. > :09:25.side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that
:09:26. > :09:28.the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only
:09:29. > :09:34.through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem
:09:35. > :09:40.to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through
:09:41. > :09:43.amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to
:09:44. > :09:47.hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the
:09:48. > :09:52.Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs
:09:53. > :09:58.union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in
:09:59. > :10:01.the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good
:10:02. > :10:08.faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a
:10:09. > :10:11.Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,
:10:12. > :10:17.but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel
:10:18. > :10:21.has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.
:10:22. > :10:25.Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since
:10:26. > :10:31.the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms
:10:32. > :10:35.of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single
:10:36. > :10:38.market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and
:10:39. > :10:46.services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they
:10:47. > :10:49.can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We
:10:50. > :10:56.saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they
:10:57. > :11:06.hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into
:11:07. > :11:11.a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going
:11:12. > :11:14.to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask
:11:15. > :11:27.for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you
:11:28. > :11:33.want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting
:11:34. > :11:38.it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is
:11:39. > :11:44.150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we
:11:45. > :11:48.have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about
:11:49. > :11:56.what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.
:11:57. > :11:57.Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU
:11:58. > :11:58.also means quitting the
:11:59. > :12:01.Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free
:12:02. > :12:03.movement of goods, services, capital and people.
:12:04. > :12:04.They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting
:12:05. > :12:06.politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during
:12:07. > :12:09.Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost
:12:10. > :12:19.certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.
:12:20. > :12:23.When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay
:12:24. > :12:26."No, we should be outside the Single Market."
:12:27. > :12:29.And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael
:12:30. > :12:31.Gove was absolutely right to say the UK
:12:32. > :12:42.They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before
:12:43. > :12:45.the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the
:12:46. > :12:48.Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving
:12:49. > :12:51.the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:12:52. > :12:53.Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,
:12:54. > :13:00.once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually
:13:01. > :13:05.And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said
:13:06. > :13:08.that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some
:13:09. > :13:12.But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what
:13:13. > :13:19.To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're
:13:20. > :13:21.joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain
:13:22. > :13:35.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave
:13:36. > :13:38.campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many
:13:39. > :13:46.were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was
:13:47. > :13:51.made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12
:13:52. > :13:54.statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the
:13:55. > :13:59.referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.
:14:00. > :14:02.Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian
:14:03. > :14:09.model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went
:14:10. > :14:11.out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading
:14:12. > :14:15.arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the
:14:16. > :14:20.Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade
:14:21. > :14:24.agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the
:14:25. > :14:28.12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself,
:14:29. > :14:33.when people were giving really serious thought to such matters? The
:14:34. > :14:36.Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters.
:14:37. > :14:42.They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.
:14:43. > :14:46.But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should
:14:47. > :14:51.stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked
:14:52. > :14:56.about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from
:14:57. > :15:00.Nigel Farage dates back to 2009, when we didn't even know if we would
:15:01. > :15:04.have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back
:15:05. > :15:08.to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point
:15:09. > :15:14.stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.
:15:15. > :15:19.Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave
:15:20. > :15:22.movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place
:15:23. > :15:26.in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave
:15:27. > :15:30.campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have
:15:31. > :15:33.highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners
:15:34. > :15:40.over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments
:15:41. > :15:46.accurately? I don't think in a 92nd video you can talk about the full
:15:47. > :15:50.thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade
:15:51. > :15:58.agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
:15:59. > :16:00.There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the
:16:01. > :16:01.clip you used on Owen Paterson first.
:16:02. > :16:08.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:09. > :16:13.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:14. > :16:14.It's not the EU which is
:16:15. > :16:17.a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.
:16:18. > :16:21.It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on
:16:22. > :16:24.I mean, are we really suggesting that the
:16:25. > :16:26.economy in the world is not going to come to come
:16:27. > :16:28.to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?
:16:29. > :16:30.Are we going to be like Sudan and North
:16:31. > :16:34.It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a
:16:35. > :16:48.What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that
:16:49. > :16:52.we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country
:16:53. > :16:55.in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our
:16:56. > :16:59.trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David
:17:00. > :17:03.Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box
:17:04. > :17:07.recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the
:17:08. > :17:11.Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of
:17:12. > :17:12.course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't
:17:13. > :17:31.think he was about axis, he is talking
:17:32. > :17:34.about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks
:17:35. > :17:36.about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap
:17:37. > :17:39.off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's
:17:40. > :17:41.the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and
:17:42. > :17:44.Patterson is an example of this, saying we can trade as we do now,
:17:45. > :17:46.the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and
:17:47. > :17:49.tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the
:17:50. > :17:50.views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.
:17:51. > :17:53.When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that
:17:54. > :17:55.it might be initially attractive for some business people.
:17:56. > :17:59.So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in
:18:00. > :18:03.the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian
:18:04. > :18:06.option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive
:18:07. > :18:08.for some business people. But then again for voters
:18:09. > :18:11.who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,
:18:12. > :18:14.they will be very concerned that it allows free movement
:18:15. > :18:26.of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.
:18:27. > :18:29.He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real
:18:30. > :18:33.problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.
:18:34. > :18:37.But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them
:18:38. > :18:40.accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what
:18:41. > :18:44.we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying
:18:45. > :18:48.the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It
:18:49. > :18:55.might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free
:18:56. > :19:00.movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are
:19:01. > :19:02.saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are
:19:03. > :19:05.distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.
:19:06. > :19:07.On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:19:08. > :19:15.This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn't
:19:16. > :19:16.run. There is absolutely
:19:17. > :19:18.nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving
:19:19. > :19:19.the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part
:19:20. > :19:23.of the European Economic Area and we should use our
:19:24. > :19:32.membership of the EEA as a holding position from which
:19:33. > :19:36.we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export
:19:37. > :19:38.market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,
:19:39. > :19:48.if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we
:19:49. > :19:53.should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA
:19:54. > :20:03.as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip
:20:04. > :20:07.is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a
:20:08. > :20:10.distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a
:20:11. > :20:13.definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,
:20:14. > :20:18.for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go
:20:19. > :20:21.on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he
:20:22. > :20:25.does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't
:20:26. > :20:28.let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he
:20:29. > :20:32.wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would
:20:33. > :20:36.be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea
:20:37. > :20:39.now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the
:20:40. > :20:43.Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all
:20:44. > :20:48.had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the
:20:49. > :20:52.full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out
:20:53. > :20:55.there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave
:20:56. > :20:59.campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout
:21:00. > :21:03.the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market
:21:04. > :21:07.is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the
:21:08. > :21:11.montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime
:21:12. > :21:14.Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being
:21:15. > :21:17.categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave
:21:18. > :21:21.membership of the Single Market. What bit of that didn't you
:21:22. > :21:24.understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to
:21:25. > :21:30.leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other
:21:31. > :21:35.promises they made, whether ?350 million for the NHS, whether a VAT
:21:36. > :21:38.cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of
:21:39. > :21:42.any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan
:21:43. > :21:47.has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market. You
:21:48. > :21:49.spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting
:21:50. > :21:52.and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen
:21:53. > :21:56.this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is
:21:57. > :21:59.perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have
:22:00. > :22:03.a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.
:22:04. > :22:06.That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to
:22:07. > :22:11.stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag
:22:12. > :22:13.us out of our biggest trading partner.
:22:14. > :22:15.Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up
:22:16. > :22:17.their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week
:22:18. > :22:20.in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest
:22:21. > :22:22.this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -
:22:23. > :22:25.stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from
:22:26. > :22:28.farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,
:22:29. > :22:44.split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're
:22:45. > :22:54.having their second Watch as the alpha male,
:22:55. > :23:01.the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,
:23:02. > :23:03.the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha
:23:04. > :23:06.female Diane James. The European Parliament
:23:07. > :23:20.in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible
:23:21. > :23:23.future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,
:23:24. > :23:25.has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague
:23:26. > :23:28.during a meeting. A few days later he is
:23:29. > :23:30.out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my
:23:31. > :23:34.application to become I'm actually withdrawing
:23:35. > :23:37.myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party?
:23:38. > :23:43.I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document
:23:44. > :23:47.suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political
:23:48. > :23:52.campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes
:23:53. > :23:58.over the leadership of the pack. One contender is Suzanne Evans,
:23:59. > :24:01.a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for
:24:02. > :24:10.disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,
:24:11. > :24:13.an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side
:24:14. > :24:19.as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast
:24:20. > :24:21.in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told
:24:22. > :24:24.that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,
:24:25. > :24:29.a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance
:24:30. > :24:32.to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated
:24:33. > :24:46.passionate supporters who feel like they're not really
:24:47. > :24:49.being listened to and are not even Typically what happens
:24:50. > :24:52.is they just basically sit there until six months before
:24:53. > :24:54.a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out
:24:55. > :24:57.and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel
:24:58. > :24:59.there is not an adequate flow of communication
:25:00. > :25:01.up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in
:25:02. > :25:10.any hustings? He left a hustings saying
:25:11. > :25:13.the contest was an establishment coronation and has
:25:14. > :25:16.made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty
:25:17. > :25:18.for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear
:25:19. > :25:20.will amongst the offences should be dealt with
:25:21. > :25:24.decisively. But again, on an issue like that,
:25:25. > :25:27.that is something that Our members are not
:25:28. > :25:32.going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that
:25:33. > :25:35.I would have any authority to have the say and determine
:25:36. > :25:37.the future What method would you use
:25:38. > :25:40.for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could
:25:41. > :25:42.be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online
:25:43. > :25:47.poll about whether you use the electric chair,
:25:48. > :25:53.or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made
:25:54. > :25:55.in favour of This is such a small aspect
:25:56. > :25:59.of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media
:26:00. > :26:01.they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant
:26:02. > :26:07.details. This is one vote that
:26:08. > :26:09.the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do
:26:10. > :26:13.in this party is to revolutionise the democratic
:26:14. > :26:16.process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should
:26:17. > :26:20.be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip
:26:21. > :26:22.would win at Meanwhile, in New York,
:26:23. > :26:30.on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage
:26:31. > :26:39.of the President-elect, a man he has described as
:26:40. > :26:41.a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some
:26:42. > :26:44.in this leadership contest. There are also elections
:26:45. > :26:46.to the party's National Executive Committee, a body
:26:47. > :26:49.that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two
:26:50. > :27:04.of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -
:27:05. > :27:14.Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving
:27:15. > :27:17.each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be
:27:18. > :27:20.the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.
:27:21. > :27:23.Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,
:27:24. > :27:27.forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it
:27:28. > :27:31.really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win
:27:32. > :27:35.seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we
:27:36. > :27:55.need to attract more women, more ethnic
:27:56. > :27:57.minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their
:27:58. > :28:00.party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my
:28:01. > :28:03.leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical
:28:04. > :28:04.party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne
:28:05. > :28:07.Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.
:28:08. > :28:10.I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and
:28:11. > :28:12.prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I
:28:13. > :28:15.am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done
:28:16. > :28:17.every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,
:28:18. > :28:20.whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past
:28:21. > :28:22.six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour
:28:23. > :28:26.constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of
:28:27. > :28:29.working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet
:28:30. > :28:36.are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a
:28:37. > :28:40.mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to
:28:41. > :28:44.realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get
:28:45. > :28:47.together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles
:28:48. > :28:52.within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and
:28:53. > :28:56.whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion
:28:57. > :29:01.polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on
:29:02. > :29:04.the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a
:29:05. > :29:08.grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in
:29:09. > :29:11.the party as well and also a background that I think means I can
:29:12. > :29:21.help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity
:29:22. > :29:24.faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.
:29:25. > :29:26.There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee
:29:27. > :29:29.going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have
:29:30. > :29:32.ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day, I
:29:33. > :29:35.think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more
:29:36. > :29:40.open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive
:29:41. > :29:43.Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to
:29:44. > :29:46.be elected reasonably since 2010 giving the members better
:29:47. > :29:50.communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a
:29:51. > :29:55.clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,
:29:56. > :29:59.Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person
:30:00. > :30:02.who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show
:30:03. > :30:09.you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with
:30:10. > :30:12.President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's
:30:13. > :30:17.decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr
:30:18. > :30:22.Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.
:30:23. > :30:25.I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is
:30:26. > :30:31.President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the
:30:32. > :30:34.campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,
:30:35. > :30:37.pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put
:30:38. > :30:43.the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne
:30:44. > :30:47.Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I
:30:48. > :30:51.said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest. The
:30:52. > :30:55.better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is
:30:56. > :31:00.quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr
:31:01. > :31:05.Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have
:31:06. > :31:09.that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not
:31:10. > :31:12.out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is
:31:13. > :31:18.according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let
:31:19. > :31:21.me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself
:31:22. > :31:25.in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country
:31:26. > :31:27.ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in
:31:28. > :31:37.2020. The other thing your leader has in
:31:38. > :31:43.common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do
:31:44. > :31:50.you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and
:31:51. > :31:54.Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is
:31:55. > :31:59.pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle
:32:00. > :32:06.East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to
:32:07. > :32:10.bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the
:32:11. > :32:14.conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American
:32:15. > :32:21.line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is
:32:22. > :32:25.affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these
:32:26. > :32:33.people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial
:32:34. > :32:36.breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage
:32:37. > :32:41.unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do
:32:42. > :32:46.you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I
:32:47. > :32:50.was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,
:32:51. > :32:53.and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were
:32:54. > :32:57.already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth
:32:58. > :32:59.that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control
:33:00. > :33:08.immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering
:33:09. > :33:12.voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it
:33:13. > :33:16.was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed
:33:17. > :33:21.to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.
:33:22. > :33:27.People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip
:33:28. > :33:34.shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you
:33:35. > :33:37.different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone
:33:38. > :33:40.for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from
:33:41. > :33:47.the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns,
:33:48. > :33:55.with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa
:33:56. > :33:58.into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,
:33:59. > :34:03.particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I
:34:04. > :34:09.want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the
:34:10. > :34:13.low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national
:34:14. > :34:17.anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks
:34:18. > :34:21.anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John
:34:22. > :34:25.McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for
:34:26. > :34:30.working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.
:34:31. > :34:36.It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I
:34:37. > :34:40.first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic
:34:41. > :34:43.opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at
:34:44. > :34:46.me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have
:34:47. > :34:53.seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death
:34:54. > :34:57.penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more
:34:58. > :35:01.money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to
:35:02. > :35:11.fund it adequately, and it hasn't been to date. We promised in our
:35:12. > :35:15.manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come
:35:16. > :35:20.from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being
:35:21. > :35:26.taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the
:35:27. > :35:29.money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because
:35:30. > :35:34.that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on
:35:35. > :35:39.management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,
:35:40. > :35:44.foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership
:35:45. > :35:47.fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It
:35:48. > :35:54.cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are
:35:55. > :36:00.not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you
:36:01. > :36:06.get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.
:36:07. > :36:10.Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25
:36:11. > :36:15.million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer
:36:16. > :36:19.than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away
:36:20. > :36:35.from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?
:36:36. > :36:43.Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.
:36:44. > :36:48.Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you
:36:49. > :36:52.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:53. > :36:55.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:36:56. > :59:57.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:59:58. > :00:00.Coming up here in 20 minutes, never happened and will not happen
:00:01. > :00:01.in four years. It is subject we should spend more time on. Back to
:00:02. > :00:10.you. What will the Chancellor have to say
:00:11. > :00:14.in his first big economic statement? What impact will the forecasters say
:00:15. > :00:17.Brexit will have on the economy? And who will face the Front
:00:18. > :00:20.National's Marine Le Pen in Well, the Shadow Chancellor
:00:21. > :00:34.and the Chancellor have both been touring the television
:00:35. > :00:36.studios this morning. Let's be clear, a lot of this
:00:37. > :00:42.is going to be gimmicks and press As I've said, in the
:00:43. > :00:46.pipeline, we've only seen one in five delivered
:00:47. > :00:49.to construction, that's all. So a lot of this will be a repeat
:00:50. > :00:51.of what I'm not going to reveal
:00:52. > :00:55.what I'm going to say on We don't have unlimited
:00:56. > :01:00.capacity, as one might imagine from listening
:01:01. > :01:03.to John McDonnell, to borrow hundreds of billions of pounds more
:01:04. > :01:07.for discretionary spending. That simply doesn't
:01:08. > :01:11.exist if we're going to retain this country's hard-won
:01:12. > :01:13.credibility in the financial markets if we are going to remain
:01:14. > :01:30.an attractive place for business to We didn't learn very much, Helen,
:01:31. > :01:33.but the papers were briefed this morning that there will be another
:01:34. > :01:45.?1.3 billion for roads and things like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08% of
:01:46. > :01:48.our GDP. Not exactly an infrastructure investment programme,
:01:49. > :01:57.is it? Yellow like I have to say, it was not thrilling to read the
:01:58. > :02:00.details. -- I have to say... It is the first big financial statement
:02:01. > :02:04.that is going to come and I think there will be a big row about the
:02:05. > :02:09.OBE are forecast because they cannot set out a range, they have to commit
:02:10. > :02:18.to one forecast. Everything they do is incredibly political. DOB are is
:02:19. > :02:26.on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are -- the Office for Budget
:02:27. > :02:30.Responsibility. I don't know how they will square the circle. It is
:02:31. > :02:33.an interesting week. It is all about the economy and public finances and
:02:34. > :02:38.we don't have to talk about Brexit until next Sunday, but no, I have a
:02:39. > :02:48.terrible feeling that by the end of Wednesday afternoon we will be
:02:49. > :02:51.screaming and shouting about how Brexit is going to be for the
:02:52. > :02:55.economy. Just imagine the Treasury comes out with his forecast that it
:02:56. > :03:04.is going to collapse growth and collapsed Treasury takings, people
:03:05. > :03:10.will be apoplectic. Until now, the economy has continued to grow
:03:11. > :03:13.strongly. Pretty well. They cannot say, we have noticed it slowing down
:03:14. > :03:17.and that will continue. They have to take a punt if they think it will
:03:18. > :03:21.slow down. It affects the Chancellor's figures, because the
:03:22. > :03:27.more they say it is slowing down, and I have seen that it will go from
:03:28. > :03:30.2% down to 1.4%, the more the Chancellor's deficit rises even
:03:31. > :03:35.without any more tax cuts and spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is
:03:36. > :03:40.right. What we will see this week is a continuation of the debate we have
:03:41. > :03:43.been having all along. If the Office for Budget Responsibility has
:03:44. > :03:53.negative and gloomy predictions, there will be howls of agony, and
:03:54. > :03:55.rightly howls of frustration from Brexiteers who will say that all the
:03:56. > :04:00.dire predictions from before the referendum have not come to pass and
:04:01. > :04:06.now you are talking things down in a way that becomes a self-fulfilling
:04:07. > :04:13.prophecy. The money for roads, you were dismissive about it, but every
:04:14. > :04:17.little helps. I don't dismiss it, I say it doesn't amount to a fiscal
:04:18. > :04:26.stimulus in macro economic terms. I'm sure if you are on that road, it
:04:27. > :04:33.will be useful. They are going to build a super highway between Oxford
:04:34. > :04:40.and Cambridge. I would like to see them go out to Japan and learn how
:04:41. > :04:44.to fill a hole in two days. I would suggest the road from Oxford to
:04:45. > :04:47.Cambridge is not for the just managing classes, even though it
:04:48. > :04:59.goes through Milton Keynes, and that simply freezing due freezing fuel
:05:00. > :05:04.duty isn't going to hack it, either. These just about managing people are
:05:05. > :05:07.potentially quite a big band. With income tax rises, it means anything
:05:08. > :05:10.you do to help them is incredibly expensive. The universal credit
:05:11. > :05:17.freeze is an interesting example of that. Philip Hammond sounded
:05:18. > :05:25.ambivalent about it after pre-briefings that it might not, the
:05:26. > :05:28.cuts might not go ahead. There are people who are in work but because
:05:29. > :05:34.they are low paid don't have the number of hours, they require
:05:35. > :05:39.welfare benefits to top up their pay, and these welfare benefits, as
:05:40. > :05:43.it stands, are frozen until 2020, and yet inflation is now starting to
:05:44. > :05:49.rise. That's a problem for the just managing people. Correct. It is
:05:50. > :05:57.worse than that, because we are talking about April 2017 when tax
:05:58. > :06:03.credits become universal credits, so the squeeze will be greater. We will
:06:04. > :06:07.get a small highway between a couple of university towns, but if he has
:06:08. > :06:14.any money left to spend at all, it will be on some pretty seismic
:06:15. > :06:20.jazzman for the just about managing people. I am so glad we're not
:06:21. > :06:26.calling them Jams on this programme, because it is a patronising tone.
:06:27. > :06:35.What the Chancellor and Shadow Chancellor did not confront is that
:06:36. > :06:38.Mr Trump's election is a watershed in terms of being able to borrow
:06:39. > :06:42.cheaply. The Federal Reserve is about to start raising rates. The
:06:43. > :06:47.days of cheap borrowing for governments could be coming to an
:06:48. > :06:51.end. You can feel a bit sorry for labour here because after having had
:06:52. > :06:54.six years of being told that we need a surplus and these things are
:06:55. > :06:58.important, we can't deny the deficit, we have switched now and
:06:59. > :07:05.the first thing that Philip Hammond did was to scrap George Osborne's
:07:06. > :07:08.borrowing targets. He has given himself more wriggle room than
:07:09. > :07:16.George Osborne had. He has and it will cost them more. Debt servicing
:07:17. > :07:17.will now rise as a cost. Where is the next political earthquake going
:07:18. > :07:24.to happen? It could be Italy, or the French
:07:25. > :07:30.elections coming up next spring. Now, who will face the Front
:07:31. > :07:33.National's Marine Le Pen in next year's French Presidential
:07:34. > :07:34.elections? Well, France's centre-right
:07:35. > :07:36.part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate
:07:37. > :07:38.in the first round of Well, France's centre-right
:07:39. > :07:40.part, Les Republicans, are selecting their candidate
:07:41. > :07:44.in the first round of Let's speak to our correspondent
:07:45. > :07:57.in Paris, Hugh Schofield. Welcome to the programme. Three main
:07:58. > :08:02.candidates, the former -- two former prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy,
:08:03. > :08:07.the former president. It is not clear who the front runner is.
:08:08. > :08:17.Robbins it is quite an exciting race, because four weeks it did look
:08:18. > :08:25.as if it was going to be Juppe. It is a two round race. Two go through
:08:26. > :08:29.and the idea is that they rally all the support together. It looked like
:08:30. > :08:33.the first round would be dominated by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and
:08:34. > :08:41.there was a clear binary combination there, because Sarkozy was looking
:08:42. > :08:44.for squeamish far right voters. In other words, veering clearly to the
:08:45. > :08:51.right and far right on immigration and identity issues. And Juppe is
:08:52. > :08:56.the opposite, saying we had to appeal to the centre. That was what
:08:57. > :09:00.it looked like. But the third candidate has made this really quite
:09:01. > :09:05.staggering surge in the last few days. There was a debate on Thursday
:09:06. > :09:10.and he was deemed to have won it on television. He is coming up
:09:11. > :09:13.strongly, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him go through,
:09:14. > :09:19.which would be interesting from a British perspective, because if the
:09:20. > :09:23.becomes president, he will be the first president with a British wife.
:09:24. > :09:30.His wife Penelope is Welsh. We will have to leave it there. I
:09:31. > :09:33.would suggest that the reason it is fascinating is that whoever wins
:09:34. > :09:38.this primary for the centre-right party is likely to be the next
:09:39. > :09:42.president, and who the next president is will be very important
:09:43. > :09:46.for Britain in these Brexit negotiations. Nothing will really
:09:47. > :09:51.happen until it is determined. Then after the German elections in
:09:52. > :09:56.October. I would add one more constituent part. The most important
:09:57. > :10:03.thing about the race is who can stop Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will
:10:04. > :10:12.almost be one of the ones in the run-off. The Socialists don't expect
:10:13. > :10:19.much. Francois Hollande is done. There is too much of a cliff to
:10:20. > :10:24.climb. Which one of these three centre-right candidates can stop
:10:25. > :10:28.Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit and Trump, but we could also have
:10:29. > :10:36.Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy, it is the battle of the right. In some
:10:37. > :10:43.areas, he has moved to the right of marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he
:10:44. > :10:46.has do in order to take the wind out of our sails. You wonder if she
:10:47. > :10:50.could succeed later on if she does not this time. Talking to French
:10:51. > :10:54.analysts last night, there was suggesting that she could not do it
:10:55. > :10:58.this time but could win the next time. All the events in France over
:10:59. > :11:02.the last year seemed to provide the most propitious circumstances for
:11:03. > :11:08.her to do well, and particularly if you throw in Trump and Brexit.
:11:09. > :11:12.Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he goes through and wins the Republican
:11:13. > :11:20.nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen go through to the second round, that
:11:21. > :11:24.would mean, think about it, is that a lot of French socialist voters and
:11:25. > :11:32.those on the father left would have to grit their teeth and vote for
:11:33. > :11:36.Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do it. We might see what we saw in
:11:37. > :11:48.America, where lots of potential Clinton voters did not turn out. You
:11:49. > :11:50.got politicians like Melanchon on the far left saying there are
:11:51. > :11:58.foreign workers taking bread out of French workers' mounts. We sometimes
:11:59. > :12:04.forget, because we tend to emphasise the National of the National front,
:12:05. > :12:15.but actually, there are economic policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is
:12:16. > :12:27.the Hillary Clinton of the French elections. He is Mr establishment.
:12:28. > :12:32.Juppe and the other third candidate are the same. You have to
:12:33. > :12:34.re-establish candidates running against an antiestablishment
:12:35. > :12:39.candidate. There are populist economic policies from the National
:12:40. > :12:42.front. The other three want to raise the retirement age and cut back on
:12:43. > :12:51.the 35 hour week, which are not classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe
:12:52. > :12:54.used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux. And we are the biggest importers of
:12:55. > :13:03.claret, so that could have an effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear
:13:04. > :13:11.against John Marine Le Pen, and the socialist campaign slogan was, vote
:13:12. > :13:12.for the Crook, not the fascist. We will see what they come up with this
:13:13. > :13:14.time. The Daily Politics is back at noon
:13:15. > :13:19.tomorrow on BBC Two, where on Wednesday I will have full
:13:20. > :13:25.coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn But remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:26. > :13:34.it's the Sunday Politics.